October 13, 2025 • 25 mins
Before a body is ever opened, a medical examiner must consider what dangers might be waiting inside: fentanyl, tuberculosis or even a hidden needle. This week on Pathology with Dr. Priya, a Zone 7 series, Sheryl McCollum and Dr. Priya Banerjee share stories from their recent visit to Lake Tobias Wildlife Park. There, they took part in Wildlife CSI training, a hands-on blend of forensic education and animal encounters, including time with Chester, a baby kangaroo who quickly won everyone over. From there, the conversation shifts to the serious risks medical examiners face every day. From bloodborne pathogens and drug exposure to unstable death scenes and unpredictable infections, Dr. Priya offers a closer look at the hidden hazards behind every autopsy.
Highlights
- (0:00) Welcome to Pathology with Dr. Priya: A Zone 7 series—Sheryl and Dr. Priya open the episode with highlights from the Wildlife CSI training at Lake Tobias Wildlife Park
- (3:15) Embracing lifelong learning, from seasoned investigators to students in the field
- (4:45 Honoring Dr. Jane Goodall and recognizing how wildlife crime intersects with forensic science
- (6:30) The hidden dangers of autopsy work: COVID, drug exposure, and unknown infections
- (8:30) Safety in the morgue: scalpel slips, needle sticks, and the rise of pandemic-era protocols
- (12:30) Fentanyl, MRSA, TB, and the health risks involved in cases with limited medical histories or unidentified individuals
- (17:00) Environmental hazards at the death scene, from fire damage and rough terrain to unpredictable animals
- (22:15) Morgue myths, pet protection, and why even the smallest details can carry big dangers
About the Hosts
Dr. Priya Banerjee is a board-certified forensic pathologist with extensive experience in death investigation, clinical forensics, and courtroom testimony. A graduate of Johns Hopkins, she served for over a decade as Rhode Island’s state medical examiner and now runs a private forensic pathology practice. Her work includes military deaths, NSA cases, and high-profile investigations. Dr. Priya has also been featured as a forensic expert on platforms such as CrimeOnline and Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. She is a dedicated educator, animal lover, and proud mom.
Website: anchorforensicpathology.com
Twitter/X: @Autopsy_MD
Sheryl McCollum is an Emmy Award–winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnline, and the Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. She works as a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department and is the co-author of the textbook Cold Case: Pathways to Justice. Sheryl is also the founder and director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute (CCIRI), a nationally recognized nonprofit that brings together universities, law enforcement, and experts to help solve unsolved homicides, missing persons cases, and kidnappings.
Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
Twitter/X: @ColdCaseTips
Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
Instagram: @officialzone7podcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to pathology with doctor Priya. Doctor Honey, get on
in here. We got something to talk about. I'm gonna
tell you we experienced something so incredible and we're fortunate
to be able to do it together.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Beyond beyond. I'm rarely at a loss for words, but
I don't even know how to capture it in words.
It was so great.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
I had a chance to watch your face when something
happened that I didn't know you when you were three
or four, but I saw that little girl's face as
plain as day. Y'all listen. We spent the weekend in
Pennsylvania at a wildlife park called Lake Tobias.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Magical, amazing, incredible, whatever you want to say, it just beyond.
You can't put it into words, though you can't.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
And the fact that we got to experience with friends,
I think made it so much more just awesome to
me and awe inspiring. So the Wildlife CSI Academy had
its first training inside of a zoo and the first
(01:26):
training was done by Scott Duffy, former FBI Senior Person
in charge of Delaware, and he did interviewing and how
do you interview a bank robber versus a poacher. And
then we had a special guest, and this is where
I saw Doctor Pria just become childlike in the best
(01:50):
possible way. It was a baby kangaroo.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Oh god, Mike, I just can't. I had a dream
about him that I brought him home, and my husband
expected it because he expects that kind of thing in
real life, So it was unreal. Chester. I don't know.
I'm gonna name my next pet Chester because I just
need to carry on that legacy at home. He was
(02:16):
just the best. Chester, the nine month old kangaroo.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
So sweet and just I don't know. He just affected
everybody after.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
And he's so soft. I didn't understand how soft a
baby kangaroo was and playful.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Just yes, gentle, and I don't know. I'm telling you.
If I thought for a minute I could have successfully
got him out of there and threw tsa, I would
have done it.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
I'm not sure success I was about to. Whether I'd
have been successful or not is a different story.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
I would have been pretty obvious.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Probably the closest I've ever come to like committing a crime.
It is stealing one of those animals there.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
It was amazing, and Chester wasn't the only one, y'all.
I'm going to tell you, you know, there's so many animals
there that just knocked me at Oh, the.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Baby, Oliver, the giraffe. I could go on and on.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I appreciate you being there, And here's a testament to you.
With all of your training and all of your accolades
and all of your education, you came ready to learn,
open to learn. Oh but I appreciate that because you
and I both know there's some people playing at the
highest level that don't think they need it, they don't
(03:35):
think there's anything else they can learn. And this particular weekend,
I mean, the play and field was even you were
in class with police officers and criminal justice students and civilians,
and y'all all learned. It was fantastic.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
We all learned from each other. And I think, you know,
I think it's shortsighted to say that we all know everything,
even in forensics, even in crime scene, even in autopsy.
That's that's ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
You know, parenting, it doesn't matter what it is. You
don't know everything, and you need help.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Nothing is as humbling as parenting. We'll just leave that aside.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Oh yeah, you need help, and you need help. You
know it was great, but thank you again.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Oh no, it was an honor. And like the audience
members who have followed cases often way more closely than
I have because I'm working on my personal you know,
legal cases and autopsies and whatnot, I don't get the
chance to really deep dive like they do. So it
was you know, learning from everybody at every level.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
And I tell you, I thought it was just an
incredible experience that we got to honor doctor Jane Goodall
while we were all there surrounded by animals.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Her loss hit me hard as I was driving down,
and I think, you know, it was a calling, right
like we all sort of got there and reassessed and said, okay,
we have to push forward in her honor and to
keep that work alive. I think others have asked me
how I met you, and I said, you know, we
(05:15):
met through Nancy and online, but what brought us together
was our love for animals and sort of bridging our
forensic expertise into wildlife and animal trade. And I was
shocked to find out that even Lake Tobias had had
animals stolen. You know, so we think about international borders
this and that this is middle of Pennsylvania, very small
(05:36):
town and even then they're affected by theft and animal
trade and you know that kind of thing, so everybody
has to keep their eyes and ears open. It wasn't
just you know, big airports or international borders, which really
surprised me and then made me rethink my goals of
bringing Chester home.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
But well, I hate to say it, but that case
would have been solved pretty quickly. I know.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
I wouldn't would have thrown me under the buff and
a heartbeat, there's a stolen animal. I'm probably the first
ten suspense.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Oh Mercy. Well, it was a tremendous time and I
can't wait for the next one.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
In any case, Yeah, you know, perfect segue into exploring.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
More right, yes, and sadly shifting gears to a topic
that's not as much fun but equally as interesting. I
asked you to kind of think about talking about doing
autopsies where the danger is for the medical examiner, because
I think that's something a lot of people don't think about.
(06:39):
Because I remember when COVID first hit, we didn't really
know what is this thing, and we had some desks
that they would say was natural and you know, the
Emmy would you know want to come out. We didn't
even want to go in that house because we were like, oh,
they got COVID and we weren't sure what does that mean?
And you're having to open the person up.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Oh my god. So you know, I'll start with COVID
because I think that's the most tangible. But I mean
going back as a medical student, as a pathology resident
than a forensic pathology fellow. I trained in big areas
right like Philadelphia and then Baltimore. So my background, my
med school background, and clinical backgrounds all in Philadelphia, and
(07:23):
then I transitioned back to be closer to my family
in Baltimore, where I trained at Hopkins and then the
State of Maryland Medical Examiner's office. These are two humongous cities.
I remember across from the community hospital in Philadelphia there
was a field full of like used needles, you know
where unfortunately drug users would leave them. I mean it
(07:45):
was like you couldn't walk your dog there, right. And
then those people like you know, people from the community,
people anywhere would become patients. But they don't come No
one comes labeled, do you know what I mean? They don't.
Often people may not know their medical history, they may
not be taking medicines, and you know, people fall on
hard times. I'm not trying to be like denigrating at all,
(08:08):
but you sometimes have to just think, oh my god,
like I don't know what they have. And that's not
just in the living, but also the dead. Right, I
don't even have the privilege of talking to someone. So
anytime you're doing an autopsy, there's always like blood borne pathogens,
you know, hepatitis, hepatitis, bp C, HIV. And I will
(08:30):
tell you, like needlesticks are real, we're drawing toxicology or
we're using scalpels every case. I mean, I teach residents,
I teach young doctors how to be a forensic pathologist
and how to do autopsies. And if you learn from me,
the first thing I teach them is tool safety. Know
(08:50):
where your sharps are at every time. You know, don't
start whipping your hands around the field. It's not a
sterile field like surgery, but it's the same concept, right,
you have to know where the sharps are, you have
to know where your scalpel is, you have to know
where we're drawing toxicology from. And I mean the people
I worked with and my technician, now are amazing. We
have almost like a dance. I call it, like I
(09:13):
can do it without talking to them because I'm so predictable. Okay.
And what happens is when you do it methodically and
at a certain speed. Right, that's where safety is built in.
You do it carefully. We're always thinking about what's the
next step and how to do it safely. So you know,
(09:36):
I teach my residence. I have holes in the count
the countertops that we do the dissection on. I always say,
put your scalpel down through the whole. Carry your knife
this way, be careful of the sharp. Don't recap needles.
That's true, and you know autopsy as well as clinical settings. Right,
don't recap needles because you can stick yourself. These are
basic practices, but they're there to think. Oh they're so basic,
(10:02):
I don't need to worry about them. But this is
what keeps you safe.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Hey, doc, have you ever seen sitting at the table
how the Blue Angels practice with their eyes closed. It's
like you're talking about you can do it, you know, blindfolded.
But they sit at this table and just with their
hands they're grasping the instruments and moving them.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
That's so cool. No, I'm gonna look that up.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
It is unbelievable. Knocked you out.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
It probably won't because the reef, I mean, there's this
a split second or a split move can cause you know,
cause them to die or cause someone else to crash,
you know. And then you take the basic practices and
COVID being the most recent right like really like the plague,
like it almost made me feel paranoid. I was doing
(10:53):
COVID autopsies. My colleagues and I went hospitals, wouldn't you know,
because they were so terrified of exposure. And then, you know,
two things happened during COVID. One was my professional practice
at work. You know, we were in basically plague suits.
You know, we had the Taiek suits. We had to
we had to go through protocols of how to take
(11:15):
put things on and off safely so we wouldn't cross contaminate.
We had to have those breathing they're called pappers, like
positive airway pressure devices that we often wore in TV cases,
but now we wore them every We sort of look
like astronauts, you know, But that's the severity. You know,
(11:35):
we didn't know how contagious it was. I would come
home and like basically take my scrubs and all my
protective you know, my work gear off and run to
the bathroom without touching anybody, not my pets, not my family,
because we just didn't know, you know. And so and
I'm sure the one people, even lay people who have
lived through it remember it, you know. But do you remember,
(11:57):
like when I was younger and in med school and
in DC, I grew up in the DC area anthrax. Oh,
sure you countered anthrax coming in the mail. You didn't
know if there was an unlabeled package and a white powder.
I mean, my clinical colleagues, a few, you know, years
older than me and residency saw anthrax. I think at
Howard University Hospital.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
We had some scares in Atlanta at the courthouse, at
the marta station.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Exactly, you know, courthouse exactly, the judges would get boxes
or something like that. And then you know, you don't
know what to expect, right, And that's because anthrax was
ultimately discovered or we knew, you know, what was happening.
But you remember, there's always an index case, right, you
open something you don't know what it is, right, And
when sentinel came to the market. It was like you
(12:47):
could airsolize it or you know, touch like brush it
at the scene and then it might you might inhale
it or something, you know. So we're always thinking and
the biggest risk even at the scene or the auto
table is even undressing someone. You don't know what the
pockets told. You don't know what's hidden in people's bras
(13:08):
or underwear or anything. I mean, you know, you really
have to think outside the box that they could have
a needle, they could have drugs, they could have weapons, like.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Especially if they weren't counting on dyn correct.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Oh yeah, you know, the accidental overdoses are really like
the big thing, you know.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
And I would think fittanyl would be a huge concern.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Exactly, and and it is, you know, to this day,
we try to be as careful as we can with
syringes that are at the scene. So it's important to
collect those right because sometimes if it's a novel drug
or there's a low level, we might need to go
back to the evidence to id what drug was injected
(13:47):
or drugs or mixed in there. So the syringe, it's like,
you know, why would you touch that, Well, it could
be very important in the death. At the same time,
that is such a dangerous thing. We have special tubes
to put syringes in that have stirofulm at the bottom.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
I'm sure you use the collection to We use the
same one, Jane.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
For the safety. You know, the safety is built in,
but you know, you just don't know what's on the person.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
If the person you know, we're homeless, you know, could
they have something on them that shouldn't be there that
could also harm you?
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Correct, And that's really you have to think about it
anywhere and everywhere, right, And the other thing is like
you never know who's HIV positive HEPSI positive. So you know,
our needles shared, right, what if you get stuck with
a shared needle? I mean, these are just very basic
biohazards of the job. You know. Then you think about
(14:47):
infections like TV. There have been times when I mean
we all wear masks and and you know, eye protection
and gowns. But there have been times when I opened
a case like A did doing an autopsy and I
look the lungs and I go, oh my god, I
think this is active TB and we have to clear
the room. You know, there's no circulating help that we
have to isolate them in a different air exchange, you know,
(15:10):
that could be completely unknown going in. Oftentimes it is
you know, and then now I have uh, you know
what we call caseating this cheesy material and it could
be cancer, but it could be TB and so we
don't know just looking at it, and we have to
take the utmost precaution at autopsy.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Well, I want to go back to the homeless population
for a minute, because now that we do not have
mental institutions, it is not uncommon for somebody to go
from a homeless camp to a jail to a hospital
than to you correct.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
I mean, unfortunately, people who have higher risk lifestyles and
higher risk factors, whether it be mental illness other disease, right,
they're going to be the ones that may need hospital
services or jail services more routine, you know, like they're
within the system, if you will. And unfortunately, sometimes they
(16:05):
die you know, wherever they are in that loop, and
I may or may not even know that they were
incarcerated to get medical records right, or that they were
in the hospital. And the thing is, when I'm doing
like someone passes away overnight, I do the autopsy the
next day. I can ask for medical records that takes
days to come in.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
And that's if we know who they are.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
That's right, But it's not like John Smith. I have
every piece of information before I do the autopsy. Do
you understand? So I may understand he was found in
a homeless encampment, but I don't know anything else. And
so even if he's even if that knowledge is out there,
it's not available to me until much later. It is
available to me, you know, more than likely if I
(16:50):
can get it at the end, like months later, when
I am synthesizing the case, right when I'm putting it
all together before I certify the death. But remember the
occupational exposure is right then and there, and then you
want to think about it. You think scabies, bed bugs,
spiders like you know, we have people in forested areas
(17:12):
ticks where we lived in New England, so there's a
lot of ticks. I mean, so I've seen not just
what you think as you know, infections, but just insects.
We also have a lot of water debts here, so
you know, you can have we have all sorts of
critters and fish and you know all that coming in,
(17:32):
So you don't know like what you're going to experience.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
And I guess that's why, you know, the homeless population
pops into my head so much, because let's just say
they had a shared needle, but then they went to
jail and got bed bugs, and then went to the
hospital and picked up some other virus. I mean, all
three of those places could then transfer some harm to you.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Oh, absolutely. And the thing is you think about, we
have a methicillin resistant back here, so MRSA, some people
hear MURSA. You know, there are certain infections. I mean,
think about the COVID transmission and any one of those
institutions right close encampments where people may not be vaccinated
or have the protection, you know, all of that respiratory,
(18:18):
the flu, anything seasonal like that TB. Right, all of
those are very contagious and easily you know, disseminated. And
then yes, and unfortunately they can come to me and
I don't know what's going on. Obviously they're not breathing
on me. But think about when I am doing the
procedure the autopsy, how I mean, I'm cutting into the organs,
(18:41):
I'm taking them out of the body, I'm cutting through
the airway. That's when the real risk is there.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
There's one thing I want to ask you about, and
I'm going to straight up and tell you I don't
understand it, and I don't know whether this would be
a risk to you, But it seems like here lately
there has been an increase a flesh eaten bacteria. Is
that something that you could be exposed to from a body?
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Yeah, I think, you know, I don't know the answer.
I mean exposed, yes. I think the biggest thing is
we're always trying to use basic precautions, so gloved hands,
you know, we try not to touch any bare skin
or anything like that that we have, you know, on person,
whether it's my investigator or myself. But there are community infections,
(19:35):
do you know what I mean, like the staff or
strip like you can go. I remember I had a
patient many moons ago who went to like a casino
and picked it up like she was diabetic, So she's
at risk. So I don't think it's just like the
autopsy per se, but just the interaction going to scenes.
I think going to scenes are the most unpredictable element,
(19:57):
right because that's someone's house or outside uncontrolled environment. In
that sense. Once I'm doing the autopsy. I'm in my
autopsy suite where things are metal and they're cleaned, and
you know, we're much more controlled if you will, right,
But I could flip and fall on a needle at
the scene. I could touch something, you know, decomp fluid.
(20:22):
I mean, I've had many, many instances like that. And
the other thing is like I remember going to a
trying to go to a fire scene and the fire
marshal and my investigator said, you can't come in. The
building is actually too unstable for you to go up
the stairs. We're not going to let you risk your life.
And it was this very weird fire that started at
(20:44):
a bedroom and went through the stairwell, and I was like, well,
this is really important, but you know, just think about
the physical risk.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
There are times when I've had to take an ATV
or that was suggested to get to where the body
is in the woods. And let me tell you, I'm
not a roughing it kind of person. But if the
you know, job requires it, I'm going to do it.
You know. But that's all you know, when you think, Okay,
I have to take a plane, train, automobile to get there.
(21:11):
That's not normal terrain either, right, it could have snow,
it could have ice. You know, I live in New England,
so there's always winter, you know, winter and storms and
hail and all that. So I think the environmental risk
factors along with you know what you think as infections
or other transmissions, there are lots different exposures, you know,
(21:32):
or risks because it's not a hospital, you know, it's
not a regular doctor's office, so we're seeing such you know,
it's a different kind of medicine. And I'm sure you,
I mean, you know that more than I do, because
you're going to the scene and collecting evidence. It's never pristine, right,
it's always poor lighting, slippery contents, you know, it's Murphy's law.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
One hunder. I tell people every single person has just
been walking on a straight, flat floor and tripped for
some reason. So when you add tree roots and you know,
gates down and glass and different things, yeah, I mean
it's a hazard, there's no question about it. But let
(22:20):
me ask you one last thing, the rat droppings. Because
you know a lot of people talk about more grats.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
I have been very fortunate where I worked not to
see any more grats or I mean maybe they're there,
but I have not seen them, but I'd be running
the other way. I'm not sure I can tolerate that risk. Yeah,
if you ask my husband David, when we were dating,
I made him come over at ten thirty at night
because a mouse had come into my house and he
(22:50):
was like, is this an emergency and I said, yes, yes,
that's trapped out the mouse. Okay, so I'm not able
to function at work if that's hop If they're creepy
crawlers all over you know, well, luckily I haven't seen that,
but you know that's in the morgue. What people you know,
how people live or other environments, urban environments, come on,
(23:11):
they're rats and mice and god knows what else? Right,
And I mean even risk you want to talk. I mean,
I'm the biggest animal lover there is. But animals get
stressed when their owners pass away. So you can enter
a scene where a cat or a dog. The cat's
usually hide, but a dog we've often encounter protecting the
body and won't let police or myself or my staff
(23:34):
get close because they think we're harming their owner.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Well, doctor, I appreciate it, and from now own, anytime
I'm engaging with a medical examiner, I'm going to say, hey, be.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Careful, absolutely and likewise right because a lot of people, again,
they just don't realize it. They just think, oh, you're
a doctor, so everything is different for you.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
And it's not different, no, And.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
I mean I think especially this kind of medicine. It's
funny because as I do these podcasts with you, I
have a ton of doctor friends listening, which I always thought,
who wants to listen to me? But it's such a
different slice of medicine that people don't even regular doctors
don't know of it.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Of course, of course, you know, uh am back on duty,
you are back on But I'm telling you we got
we got to play in the next zoo because that
was such a nice life balance. I just can't even
tell you.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
But you know, it was just as much learning as
it was animal you know, experiences. I was thinking about
Scott's interview techniques just you know, when I was interacting
with people and watching TV. I mean, there's so much
we took away from it. I can't wait to hear them.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Yeah, it's gonna be great. But I appreciate you. I
had a spectacular.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Time me too, so as an honor as always, and
thank you to Jenna Tobias and the Tobias family because
they welcomed us like family, you know. So that was
open arms and that was the best thing ever agreed.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
I mean, it was hard to leave, No, it was.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
It was a little too short, if you ask me, it.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Was a little too short. But all right, we're gonna
play in the next when room. Maybe we do something
live from there, so yes, you gotta squeeze that in. Yes,
all right, all right, honey, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
You're welcome until next time.
Welcome to pathology with doctor Priya. Doctor Honey, get on
in here. We got something to talk about. I'm gonna
tell you we experienced something so incredible and we're fortunate
to be able to do it together.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Beyond beyond. I'm rarely at a loss for words, but
I don't even know how to capture it in words.
It was so great.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
I had a chance to watch your face when something
happened that I didn't know you when you were three
or four, but I saw that little girl's face as
plain as day. Y'all listen. We spent the weekend in
Pennsylvania at a wildlife park called Lake Tobias.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Magical, amazing, incredible, whatever you want to say, it just beyond.
You can't put it into words, though you can't.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
And the fact that we got to experience with friends,
I think made it so much more just awesome to
me and awe inspiring. So the Wildlife CSI Academy had
its first training inside of a zoo and the first
(01:26):
training was done by Scott Duffy, former FBI Senior Person
in charge of Delaware, and he did interviewing and how
do you interview a bank robber versus a poacher. And
then we had a special guest, and this is where
I saw Doctor Pria just become childlike in the best
(01:50):
possible way. It was a baby kangaroo.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Oh god, Mike, I just can't. I had a dream
about him that I brought him home, and my husband
expected it because he expects that kind of thing in
real life, So it was unreal. Chester. I don't know.
I'm gonna name my next pet Chester because I just
need to carry on that legacy at home. He was
(02:16):
just the best. Chester, the nine month old kangaroo.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
So sweet and just I don't know. He just affected
everybody after.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
And he's so soft. I didn't understand how soft a
baby kangaroo was and playful.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Just yes, gentle, and I don't know. I'm telling you.
If I thought for a minute I could have successfully
got him out of there and threw tsa, I would
have done it.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
I'm not sure success I was about to. Whether I'd
have been successful or not is a different story.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
I would have been pretty obvious.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Probably the closest I've ever come to like committing a crime.
It is stealing one of those animals there.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
It was amazing, and Chester wasn't the only one, y'all.
I'm going to tell you, you know, there's so many animals
there that just knocked me at Oh, the.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Baby, Oliver, the giraffe. I could go on and on.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I appreciate you being there, And here's a testament to you.
With all of your training and all of your accolades
and all of your education, you came ready to learn,
open to learn. Oh but I appreciate that because you
and I both know there's some people playing at the
highest level that don't think they need it, they don't
(03:35):
think there's anything else they can learn. And this particular weekend,
I mean, the play and field was even you were
in class with police officers and criminal justice students and civilians,
and y'all all learned. It was fantastic.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
We all learned from each other. And I think, you know,
I think it's shortsighted to say that we all know everything,
even in forensics, even in crime scene, even in autopsy.
That's that's ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
You know, parenting, it doesn't matter what it is. You
don't know everything, and you need help.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Nothing is as humbling as parenting. We'll just leave that aside.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Oh yeah, you need help, and you need help. You
know it was great, but thank you again.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Oh no, it was an honor. And like the audience
members who have followed cases often way more closely than
I have because I'm working on my personal you know,
legal cases and autopsies and whatnot, I don't get the
chance to really deep dive like they do. So it
was you know, learning from everybody at every level.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
And I tell you, I thought it was just an
incredible experience that we got to honor doctor Jane Goodall
while we were all there surrounded by animals.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Her loss hit me hard as I was driving down,
and I think, you know, it was a calling, right
like we all sort of got there and reassessed and said, okay,
we have to push forward in her honor and to
keep that work alive. I think others have asked me
how I met you, and I said, you know, we
(05:15):
met through Nancy and online, but what brought us together
was our love for animals and sort of bridging our
forensic expertise into wildlife and animal trade. And I was
shocked to find out that even Lake Tobias had had
animals stolen. You know, so we think about international borders
this and that this is middle of Pennsylvania, very small
(05:36):
town and even then they're affected by theft and animal
trade and you know that kind of thing, so everybody
has to keep their eyes and ears open. It wasn't
just you know, big airports or international borders, which really
surprised me and then made me rethink my goals of
bringing Chester home.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
But well, I hate to say it, but that case
would have been solved pretty quickly. I know.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
I wouldn't would have thrown me under the buff and
a heartbeat, there's a stolen animal. I'm probably the first
ten suspense.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Oh Mercy. Well, it was a tremendous time and I
can't wait for the next one.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
In any case, Yeah, you know, perfect segue into exploring.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
More right, yes, and sadly shifting gears to a topic
that's not as much fun but equally as interesting. I
asked you to kind of think about talking about doing
autopsies where the danger is for the medical examiner, because
I think that's something a lot of people don't think about.
(06:39):
Because I remember when COVID first hit, we didn't really
know what is this thing, and we had some desks
that they would say was natural and you know, the
Emmy would you know want to come out. We didn't
even want to go in that house because we were like, oh,
they got COVID and we weren't sure what does that mean?
And you're having to open the person up.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Oh my god. So you know, I'll start with COVID
because I think that's the most tangible. But I mean
going back as a medical student, as a pathology resident
than a forensic pathology fellow. I trained in big areas
right like Philadelphia and then Baltimore. So my background, my
med school background, and clinical backgrounds all in Philadelphia, and
(07:23):
then I transitioned back to be closer to my family
in Baltimore, where I trained at Hopkins and then the
State of Maryland Medical Examiner's office. These are two humongous cities.
I remember across from the community hospital in Philadelphia there
was a field full of like used needles, you know
where unfortunately drug users would leave them. I mean it
(07:45):
was like you couldn't walk your dog there, right. And
then those people like you know, people from the community,
people anywhere would become patients. But they don't come No
one comes labeled, do you know what I mean? They don't.
Often people may not know their medical history, they may
not be taking medicines, and you know, people fall on
hard times. I'm not trying to be like denigrating at all,
(08:08):
but you sometimes have to just think, oh my god,
like I don't know what they have. And that's not
just in the living, but also the dead. Right, I
don't even have the privilege of talking to someone. So
anytime you're doing an autopsy, there's always like blood borne pathogens,
you know, hepatitis, hepatitis, bp C, HIV. And I will
(08:30):
tell you, like needlesticks are real, we're drawing toxicology or
we're using scalpels every case. I mean, I teach residents,
I teach young doctors how to be a forensic pathologist
and how to do autopsies. And if you learn from me,
the first thing I teach them is tool safety. Know
(08:50):
where your sharps are at every time. You know, don't
start whipping your hands around the field. It's not a
sterile field like surgery, but it's the same concept, right,
you have to know where the sharps are, you have
to know where your scalpel is, you have to know
where we're drawing toxicology from. And I mean the people
I worked with and my technician, now are amazing. We
have almost like a dance. I call it, like I
(09:13):
can do it without talking to them because I'm so predictable. Okay.
And what happens is when you do it methodically and
at a certain speed. Right, that's where safety is built in.
You do it carefully. We're always thinking about what's the
next step and how to do it safely. So you know,
(09:36):
I teach my residence. I have holes in the count
the countertops that we do the dissection on. I always say,
put your scalpel down through the whole. Carry your knife
this way, be careful of the sharp. Don't recap needles.
That's true, and you know autopsy as well as clinical settings. Right,
don't recap needles because you can stick yourself. These are
basic practices, but they're there to think. Oh they're so basic,
(10:02):
I don't need to worry about them. But this is
what keeps you safe.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Hey, doc, have you ever seen sitting at the table
how the Blue Angels practice with their eyes closed. It's
like you're talking about you can do it, you know, blindfolded.
But they sit at this table and just with their
hands they're grasping the instruments and moving them.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
That's so cool. No, I'm gonna look that up.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
It is unbelievable. Knocked you out.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
It probably won't because the reef, I mean, there's this
a split second or a split move can cause you know,
cause them to die or cause someone else to crash,
you know. And then you take the basic practices and
COVID being the most recent right like really like the plague,
like it almost made me feel paranoid. I was doing
(10:53):
COVID autopsies. My colleagues and I went hospitals, wouldn't you know,
because they were so terrified of exposure. And then, you know,
two things happened during COVID. One was my professional practice
at work. You know, we were in basically plague suits.
You know, we had the Taiek suits. We had to
we had to go through protocols of how to take
(11:15):
put things on and off safely so we wouldn't cross contaminate.
We had to have those breathing they're called pappers, like
positive airway pressure devices that we often wore in TV cases,
but now we wore them every We sort of look
like astronauts, you know, But that's the severity. You know,
(11:35):
we didn't know how contagious it was. I would come
home and like basically take my scrubs and all my
protective you know, my work gear off and run to
the bathroom without touching anybody, not my pets, not my family,
because we just didn't know, you know. And so and
I'm sure the one people, even lay people who have
lived through it remember it, you know. But do you remember,
(11:57):
like when I was younger and in med school and
in DC, I grew up in the DC area anthrax. Oh,
sure you countered anthrax coming in the mail. You didn't
know if there was an unlabeled package and a white powder.
I mean, my clinical colleagues, a few, you know, years
older than me and residency saw anthrax. I think at
Howard University Hospital.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
We had some scares in Atlanta at the courthouse, at
the marta station.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Exactly, you know, courthouse exactly, the judges would get boxes
or something like that. And then you know, you don't
know what to expect, right, And that's because anthrax was
ultimately discovered or we knew, you know, what was happening.
But you remember, there's always an index case, right, you
open something you don't know what it is, right, And
when sentinel came to the market. It was like you
(12:47):
could airsolize it or you know, touch like brush it
at the scene and then it might you might inhale
it or something, you know. So we're always thinking and
the biggest risk even at the scene or the auto
table is even undressing someone. You don't know what the
pockets told. You don't know what's hidden in people's bras
(13:08):
or underwear or anything. I mean, you know, you really
have to think outside the box that they could have
a needle, they could have drugs, they could have weapons, like.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Especially if they weren't counting on dyn correct.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Oh yeah, you know, the accidental overdoses are really like
the big thing, you know.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
And I would think fittanyl would be a huge concern.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Exactly, and and it is, you know, to this day,
we try to be as careful as we can with
syringes that are at the scene. So it's important to
collect those right because sometimes if it's a novel drug
or there's a low level, we might need to go
back to the evidence to id what drug was injected
(13:47):
or drugs or mixed in there. So the syringe, it's like,
you know, why would you touch that, Well, it could
be very important in the death. At the same time,
that is such a dangerous thing. We have special tubes
to put syringes in that have stirofulm at the bottom.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
I'm sure you use the collection to We use the
same one, Jane.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
For the safety. You know, the safety is built in,
but you know, you just don't know what's on the person.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
If the person you know, we're homeless, you know, could
they have something on them that shouldn't be there that
could also harm you?
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Correct, And that's really you have to think about it
anywhere and everywhere, right, And the other thing is like
you never know who's HIV positive HEPSI positive. So you know,
our needles shared, right, what if you get stuck with
a shared needle? I mean, these are just very basic
biohazards of the job. You know. Then you think about
(14:47):
infections like TV. There have been times when I mean
we all wear masks and and you know, eye protection
and gowns. But there have been times when I opened
a case like A did doing an autopsy and I
look the lungs and I go, oh my god, I
think this is active TB and we have to clear
the room. You know, there's no circulating help that we
have to isolate them in a different air exchange, you know,
(15:10):
that could be completely unknown going in. Oftentimes it is
you know, and then now I have uh, you know
what we call caseating this cheesy material and it could
be cancer, but it could be TB and so we
don't know just looking at it, and we have to
take the utmost precaution at autopsy.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Well, I want to go back to the homeless population
for a minute, because now that we do not have
mental institutions, it is not uncommon for somebody to go
from a homeless camp to a jail to a hospital
than to you correct.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
I mean, unfortunately, people who have higher risk lifestyles and
higher risk factors, whether it be mental illness other disease, right,
they're going to be the ones that may need hospital
services or jail services more routine, you know, like they're
within the system, if you will. And unfortunately, sometimes they
(16:05):
die you know, wherever they are in that loop, and
I may or may not even know that they were
incarcerated to get medical records right, or that they were
in the hospital. And the thing is, when I'm doing
like someone passes away overnight, I do the autopsy the
next day. I can ask for medical records that takes
days to come in.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
And that's if we know who they are.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
That's right, But it's not like John Smith. I have
every piece of information before I do the autopsy. Do
you understand? So I may understand he was found in
a homeless encampment, but I don't know anything else. And
so even if he's even if that knowledge is out there,
it's not available to me until much later. It is
available to me, you know, more than likely if I
(16:50):
can get it at the end, like months later, when
I am synthesizing the case, right when I'm putting it
all together before I certify the death. But remember the
occupational exposure is right then and there, and then you
want to think about it. You think scabies, bed bugs,
spiders like you know, we have people in forested areas
(17:12):
ticks where we lived in New England, so there's a
lot of ticks. I mean, so I've seen not just
what you think as you know, infections, but just insects.
We also have a lot of water debts here, so
you know, you can have we have all sorts of
critters and fish and you know all that coming in,
(17:32):
So you don't know like what you're going to experience.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
And I guess that's why, you know, the homeless population
pops into my head so much, because let's just say
they had a shared needle, but then they went to
jail and got bed bugs, and then went to the
hospital and picked up some other virus. I mean, all
three of those places could then transfer some harm to you.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Oh, absolutely. And the thing is you think about, we
have a methicillin resistant back here, so MRSA, some people
hear MURSA. You know, there are certain infections. I mean,
think about the COVID transmission and any one of those
institutions right close encampments where people may not be vaccinated
or have the protection, you know, all of that respiratory,
(18:18):
the flu, anything seasonal like that TB. Right, all of
those are very contagious and easily you know, disseminated. And
then yes, and unfortunately they can come to me and
I don't know what's going on. Obviously they're not breathing
on me. But think about when I am doing the
procedure the autopsy, how I mean, I'm cutting into the organs,
(18:41):
I'm taking them out of the body, I'm cutting through
the airway. That's when the real risk is there.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
There's one thing I want to ask you about, and
I'm going to straight up and tell you I don't
understand it, and I don't know whether this would be
a risk to you, But it seems like here lately
there has been an increase a flesh eaten bacteria. Is
that something that you could be exposed to from a body?
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Yeah, I think, you know, I don't know the answer.
I mean exposed, yes. I think the biggest thing is
we're always trying to use basic precautions, so gloved hands,
you know, we try not to touch any bare skin
or anything like that that we have, you know, on person,
whether it's my investigator or myself. But there are community infections,
(19:35):
do you know what I mean, like the staff or
strip like you can go. I remember I had a
patient many moons ago who went to like a casino
and picked it up like she was diabetic, So she's
at risk. So I don't think it's just like the
autopsy per se, but just the interaction going to scenes.
I think going to scenes are the most unpredictable element,
(19:57):
right because that's someone's house or outside uncontrolled environment. In
that sense. Once I'm doing the autopsy. I'm in my
autopsy suite where things are metal and they're cleaned, and
you know, we're much more controlled if you will, right,
But I could flip and fall on a needle at
the scene. I could touch something, you know, decomp fluid.
(20:22):
I mean, I've had many, many instances like that. And
the other thing is like I remember going to a
trying to go to a fire scene and the fire
marshal and my investigator said, you can't come in. The
building is actually too unstable for you to go up
the stairs. We're not going to let you risk your life.
And it was this very weird fire that started at
(20:44):
a bedroom and went through the stairwell, and I was like, well,
this is really important, but you know, just think about
the physical risk.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
There are times when I've had to take an ATV
or that was suggested to get to where the body
is in the woods. And let me tell you, I'm
not a roughing it kind of person. But if the
you know, job requires it, I'm going to do it.
You know. But that's all you know, when you think, Okay,
I have to take a plane, train, automobile to get there.
(21:11):
That's not normal terrain either, right, it could have snow,
it could have ice. You know, I live in New England,
so there's always winter, you know, winter and storms and
hail and all that. So I think the environmental risk
factors along with you know what you think as infections
or other transmissions, there are lots different exposures, you know,
(21:32):
or risks because it's not a hospital, you know, it's
not a regular doctor's office, so we're seeing such you know,
it's a different kind of medicine. And I'm sure you,
I mean, you know that more than I do, because
you're going to the scene and collecting evidence. It's never pristine, right,
it's always poor lighting, slippery contents, you know, it's Murphy's law.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
One hunder. I tell people every single person has just
been walking on a straight, flat floor and tripped for
some reason. So when you add tree roots and you know,
gates down and glass and different things, yeah, I mean
it's a hazard, there's no question about it. But let
(22:20):
me ask you one last thing, the rat droppings. Because
you know a lot of people talk about more grats.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
I have been very fortunate where I worked not to
see any more grats or I mean maybe they're there,
but I have not seen them, but I'd be running
the other way. I'm not sure I can tolerate that risk. Yeah,
if you ask my husband David, when we were dating,
I made him come over at ten thirty at night
because a mouse had come into my house and he
(22:50):
was like, is this an emergency and I said, yes, yes,
that's trapped out the mouse. Okay, so I'm not able
to function at work if that's hop If they're creepy
crawlers all over you know, well, luckily I haven't seen that,
but you know that's in the morgue. What people you know,
how people live or other environments, urban environments, come on,
(23:11):
they're rats and mice and god knows what else? Right,
And I mean even risk you want to talk. I mean,
I'm the biggest animal lover there is. But animals get
stressed when their owners pass away. So you can enter
a scene where a cat or a dog. The cat's
usually hide, but a dog we've often encounter protecting the
body and won't let police or myself or my staff
(23:34):
get close because they think we're harming their owner.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Well, doctor, I appreciate it, and from now own, anytime
I'm engaging with a medical examiner, I'm going to say, hey, be.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Careful, absolutely and likewise right because a lot of people, again,
they just don't realize it. They just think, oh, you're
a doctor, so everything is different for you.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
And it's not different, no, And.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
I mean I think especially this kind of medicine. It's
funny because as I do these podcasts with you, I
have a ton of doctor friends listening, which I always thought,
who wants to listen to me? But it's such a
different slice of medicine that people don't even regular doctors
don't know of it.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Of course, of course, you know, uh am back on duty,
you are back on But I'm telling you we got
we got to play in the next zoo because that
was such a nice life balance. I just can't even
tell you.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
But you know, it was just as much learning as
it was animal you know, experiences. I was thinking about
Scott's interview techniques just you know, when I was interacting
with people and watching TV. I mean, there's so much
we took away from it. I can't wait to hear them.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Yeah, it's gonna be great. But I appreciate you. I
had a spectacular.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Time me too, so as an honor as always, and
thank you to Jenna Tobias and the Tobias family because
they welcomed us like family, you know. So that was
open arms and that was the best thing ever agreed.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
I mean, it was hard to leave, No, it was.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
It was a little too short, if you ask me, it.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Was a little too short. But all right, we're gonna
play in the next when room. Maybe we do something
live from there, so yes, you gotta squeeze that in. Yes,
all right, all right, honey, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
You're welcome until next time.
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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