December 31, 2025 • 59 mins
In January 1981, during a severe winter storm, Lonene “Lonnie” Rogers disappeared from her home in rural Pennsylvania, leaving behind her children, her car, and no clear explanation for how she could have survived the conditions.
In this episode of Zone 7, Sheryl McCollum speaks with Lonnie’s daughter, Alison Duiker, about the final hours before the disappearance, the instability that followed, and the long search for answers that began when Alison was just five years old.
Joined by clinical hypnotherapist Monica Miller, their conversation revisits the timeline of that night and the challenges of examining long-dormant cases when physical evidence is scarce.
Highlights:
• (0:00) Sheryl McCollum shares Zone 7’s 2026 plans and the upcoming 10-8 Tour
• (1:15) January 7,1981: the blizzard night Lonnie Rogers vanished
• (2:45) Alison Duiker remembers her mother before the disappearance
• (5:15) Writing A Daughter’s Journey and preserving her mother’s story
• (10:00) The home environment leading up to Lonnie’s disappearance
• (13:00) Neighbors report arguing during the storm and unusual sounds in the duplex
• (14:45) The middle-of-the-night trip to the babysitter and unanswered time gaps
• (16:45) Growing up in instability after her mother vanished
• (19:15) The night Alison was abandoned at a police station
• (21:45) A teacher’s phone number and the moment that everything changed
• (26:15) Finding safety, stability, and resilience through guardianship
• (28:00) Revisiting the case decades later and considering hypnosis as an investigative tool
• (31:30) Monica Miller explains memory, trauma, and timeline-based hypnosis
• (41:45) Creating a controlled, quiet setting to organize memory without suggestion
• (43:45) A key detail: snow wiped from Lonnie’s car
• (50:15) Recovered memory and its investigative implications
• (54:15) The call Alison never expected: a reported confession and arrest after forty-four years
• (58:15) Thanksgiving reflections and plans for a future case update
Guest Bios:
Alison Duiker is a special education teacher with more than twenty years of experience working with young children.
She is the author of "A Daughter’s Journey: A Story of Resilience," a memoir documenting her childhood, her mother Lonnie Rogers’ disappearance, and the lasting impact of unresolved loss. Alison has spent decades advocating for answers in her mother’s case and raising awareness about cold cases.
Monica Miller is a Certified Clinical Hypnotherapist based in Atlanta, Georgia, with more than ten years in private practice.
She holds a B.A. from the University of Florida and is also a Licensed Massage Therapist and registered yoga teacher, integrating a mind-body approach in her work. Monica works with a wide range of clients, including professional athletes and individuals in high-stress careers, using a collaborative and client-centered method.
About the Host
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an active crime scene investigator for a Metro Atlanta Police Department and the director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, which partners with colleges and universities nationwide.
With more than four decades of experience, she has worked on thousands of cold cases using her investigative system, The Last 24/361, which integrates evidence, media, and advanced forensic testing.
Her work on high-profile cases, including The Boston Strangler, Natalie Holloway, Tupac Shakur and the Moore’s Ford Bridge lynching, led to her Emmy Award for "CSI: Atlanta" and induction into the National Law Enforcement Hall of Fame in 2023.
Social Links:
• Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
• Twitter: @149zone7
• Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
• Instagram: @officialzone7podcast
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Y'all. The new year is fast approaching, and I am
telling you twenty twenty six, we got big plans over
here at Zone seven. We are going back to once
a week releases. Now listen before y'all get upset, Doctor
Priya and Josh are going nowhere. What we're gonna do
(00:21):
is once a month have them with us, and it's
going to be incredible. But you also have the opportunity
to meet them in person. In twenty twenty six, that's right, honey,
we are hitting the road. Zone seven is teaming up
with Body Bags and Crime Stories and we are doing
(00:44):
a national tour called the ten eight Tour. We're kicking
this thing off in Atlanta January twenty third, twenty twenty six,
at the original Zone seven Manual's Tavern. Good stuff coming up,
see y'all in twenty twenty six. It was not just
(01:13):
snowing on January the seventh, nineteen eighty one, y'all, It
was a blizzard. That's the night that Lonnie Rogers vanished,
vanished from Hayfield Township, Pennsylvania. Her daughter Alison Dyker, always
believed something horrible had to have happened to her. She
(01:37):
knew her mama would not have left her and her brother.
Even though she was little, she was only five or six.
She knew that she knew that connection, She knew that
love that cannot be denied. Alison knew that things were
not right when she was told old her mom left
(02:01):
behind her hearing aids, her glasses, her medication, and her car.
Remember now it's a blizzard. Where is she going without
those things and more importantly, without her children? Y'all, we
have waited on this episode. I have wanted to talk
(02:23):
to Alison for a long time, but we waited till
it was right. And tonight is right, y'all. I have
the privilege to welcome Alison Dyker to Zone seven. Alison,
how are you, honey?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I'm good. Thank you so much for having me. It's
nice absolutely.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
You know. I like to always start by you telling
us about your mama.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
It just got a warm fuzzy. She was beautiful, beautiful,
blonng blonde hair like golden blonde. She was always smiling
and just a happy temperament like people telled me that
she would just light up a room like, people would
(03:12):
gravitate to her. And the most interesting thing is all
of this would take place, and she was deaf, so
she could read lips, so she could still communicate and
contribute to conversations. Even though it was difficult for her,
(03:33):
it didn't make people or other It was also difficult
for others, but it didn't make people shy away from her.
I know now, like if I see someone or hear
someone talking Spanish, I don't necessarily feel comfortable approaching them
because I don't speak Spanish. But that was not the
case for her. Even though she, you know, signed, people
(03:56):
did not shy away from her. And what I hear
from you know, when people tell me that they knew
my mother, it's always that she was the shining, you know,
ray of sunshine, and that she loved music, and she
loved people, and she loved dancing. And you would, I'm sure,
be surprised to hear dancing, but you know, they say
(04:18):
that when you lose one sense, other senses are heightened.
That she could feel the vibration of the music and
truly feel the music like none other. And my grandfather,
her father, was a dance instructor, and my mother was
his partner. When he did lessons, he brought my mother
(04:39):
along and she would help teach the lessons with my grandfather.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
That is remarkable. So she literally just had a light
inside of her. And I'll be honest with you, I
think it shows through the photographs.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
I believe that too. Like when I look, you know,
I wrote a book, as you know, and the cover
is is a picture of my mother holding like it's
just a front of facial shots, and she's got her
hands clasped together under her chin, and it looks like
she's looking into your soul.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Yes, yes, but she does. She looks so beautiful. She
always looks happy in the photographs. She always looks super
put together.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Yep. So tell us when did you.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Decide to write the book A daughter's Journey, a story
of resilience?
Speaker 3 (05:31):
When did you decide to do that?
Speaker 2 (05:33):
So it was something that I had always kind of
thought about in the back of my head. I always, like,
in high school, I liked to journal I wrote poems,
did different journaling activities, and I always thought, like, in
the back of my head, it might be kind of
meat to write a book about this story and about
(05:55):
you know, my journey. But I, you know, I just
life gets in the way and you're busy, and you know,
I went to college and got married. I had a
private message from a woman who said her name is
Suzanne Read and she wrote the book Anonymous Tip She
(06:16):
Before she wrote that book, she reached out to me
and said that she was writing a book about several
missing person stories in Pennsylvania and did I would I
grant her permission to include my mother's story in the book.
And oddly enough, I felt two different ways. One I
(06:38):
felt pride and absolutely please tell my mother's story, but
the other part of me was kind of like, no,
that's my job. Like I had this, like this surprising
reaction to well, you can tell a little bit of
the story, you know, just an excerpt in your book,
because in the back of my mind I had this
(06:59):
like that I'm the one that's supposed to tell her story.
And so shortly after her book was published, I wanted
to start writing. But I have three very active children
that I'm proud of all their sports and different things.
But it's hard to find time. I'm also a teacher
(07:22):
full time, so I'm a special ed teacher, so there's
a lot of extra paperwork and things that have to happen,
and I just never could find the time to sit
and do it. And then COVID hit. So COVID year
was the year I wrote the book because we were
home and everything was canceled, and if they were allowed
(07:44):
to go somewhere, we weren't allowed to go in. I
had to wait in the car, and only the you know,
my child could go in. So there was a lot
of wait time that happened in COVID. And oddly enough,
that was also the fortieth anniversary of her disappearance. So
I made a commitment to myself and to my mother
that in that year, in that fortieth year of her disappearance,
(08:08):
I was going to write this book. And I had
no idea. I never wrote anything like that before, and
I had no idea how long it would take. But
I was determined that I was going to do everything
I could to try to, you know, at least get
a good chunk of this book done. I wanted it
to be released on January seventh, which was the day
(08:33):
of her disappearance, and I ended up releasing it in February,
so I only missed the target by a little bit,
but I got it out, and I sure did very
proud of it.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
And you know, when you talk in the book about
only being five and her tucking you in. I mean
it just you're right there as a mama, like you
know that routine almost like that's the time. The nighttime
routine was I think one of the most important for
me because it was.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Quiet, it was just us.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
I could, you know, hear all about their day and
everything they were excited about for tomorrow. And I always
told my children I would kiss them good night twice,
so they had an extra one, you know, so if
I ever got called out to a scene or I
wasn't there for some reason, one day, they had one.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
You know, it's fair.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
So even the way you started the book, you had me,
and then you went into the thickness of this cold
case file and you go into this journey that it
is a journey of resilience that is properly named. But
I tell you, y'all, you need to get the book.
You need to hear what Allison went through because we
(09:48):
ain't gonna be able to cover everything tonight, and you
need to know every bit of it. So here's the thing.
You knew who your dad was, You know what happened
to you around fourteen. Tell everybody what happened after your
mom went missing?
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yes, So the night that she disappeared, my parents had
been in an argument. You know, they were separated. He
actually came back to the to the apartment to live,
not to live, but to stay over the holiday. She
felt really guilty about him not being around the kids
(10:27):
for the holiday. And you know that the weather in
that area is so horrendous. You know, it's in the winter.
It is it is like the tundra, I say. And
you know, for him to travel from his parents would
have been a good half hour drive, and there was
a big storm coming in, just as as would be
(10:48):
the norm during that season. So she told him that
we're not getting back together, but for the sake of
the children, if you would like to come for the holidays,
you can come and stay, but after the holidays you.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Have to leave.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
And he came. The holidays took place, and he refused
to leave. He said, these are my kids, this is
my home. I'm not leaving. They continue to argue day
after day, and on the night of January January sixth,
(11:30):
she just had had enough, and not the night, but
the day she had had enough and knew he wasn't
going to leave, and they were arguing. Things were not
good so she realized that it was going to have
to be her that left, and she had already talked
to my aunt, her sister about, you know, we should
raise the kids together. I should you know, go. It
(11:52):
was a four hour drive to where my aunt Glenny
was living at the time, and they just decided over
Thanksgiving that they should get together and my mom should
move there with the kids and they would raise the
kids together. So she went to my grandfather that day,
so this is January sixth. She went to my grandfather's
house and said, he won't leave, and you know, I
(12:16):
need gas money. I need, you know, money to leave him,
so to speak. And my grandfather said, we'll help you
with whatever you need. He said, all I have right
now is three twenty dollar bills and he is sixty dollars,
and he handed her three twenty dollar bills. She you know,
of course thanked him. At the time, in nineteen eighty one,
(12:37):
that was probably a good chunk of change, you know,
that probably went pretty far then. But she went home,
they you know, had dinner together, arguing happened, and a
lot of this, I know because we lived in a
duplex and we were the upstairs family and there was
a family underneath us, and that family reported to the
(13:01):
police that there was a lot of yelling and banging
and you know, unusual.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Sounds, and both of your parents were hearing impaired. Yes,
they so when they argued, you could tell it, oh.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
For sure, for sure. And a lot of that is
like when they're arguing, they're like for someone who's deaf,
to get each other's attention, they you know, bang on
the floor and the vibration is felt and then you
know they turn around to find out, you know, what
is needed. But if you're arguing, you're not just like
(13:38):
tapping the floor. You're probably you know, stomping because you're
angry in addition to trying to get the person's attention.
So there was a lot of noise because of the arguing.
They also don't realize like how loud they're being, and
you know, they're they're yelling at each other, but it's
it's probably not words you hear. It's probably more like
(13:58):
guttural sounds like yelling in brunts almost because their vocabulary
or their words were not perfect, you know, and their communication.
But anyway, so that night, she put the kids to
bed on the back cover of my book. It's one
(14:20):
of those that catches you, you know, right in the gut.
I talk about her tucking me in for the very
last time, and I had no idea, but she tucked
me in and talked my brother in. They, you know,
continued to argue. I heard them arguing, and sometime in
(14:42):
the night my father claims that she left with another man,
and or she left for another man, and he had
no idea where she was. He woke us up at
three o'clock in the morning, us meeting my brother and
I who I was five in my b there was three.
He woke us up and said, I have to take
(15:04):
you to the babysitter. Your mother left us for a man.
And you know, I just I helped get Aaron ready
and off to the babysitter we went. That was three
in the morning. He reported to work at six in
the morning. Actually it was six oh six. He was
six minutes late. And this was I know that sounds
ridiculous because I'm late all the time for work, but
(15:27):
you know, by minutes. But he was never, ever, ever,
ever late. He was, if anything, he was early. So
that was uncharacteristic of him. So it was odd. He
worked at a foundry where they like melted metal to
make screws and nuts and bolts and things like that.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
So if he drove her somewhere, you're talking about an
hour and a half somewhere and an hour and a
half back to be at work.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
On top, there were three hours, you know, unaccounted for.
He claimed that.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
He was the farthest he could drive is an hour
and a half. Oh yes, right, okay, got you.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah, and it was a blizzard that night, so there.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Is also a blizzard. I mean that he couldn't get
an hour and a half away mm hmm. Could he
have disposed of her at his work?
Speaker 2 (16:16):
So that was a theory, But from what I was
told from the police, that wasn't possible because like if
you think of like a deep friar, you know, that's
that's you know, molten oil. If you put water in there,
it would like blow up, you know. Back yeah, okay,
(16:37):
And the way it was explained to me is that
is it's not possible because the human body is made
of so much water that it would have shut the
whole machine down.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Okay, So let's fast forward a little bit. What happened
when you were fourteen?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
So I my mother was just disappeared, didn't know where
she was. But my brother and I were left to
live with him, and we would go back and forth.
You know, he would decide to be a father and
then decide he doesn't want to be a father. He
would drop us off at his sisters, my aunts to stay.
(17:13):
We would my brother and I would like go to neighbors' houses,
to you know, friends' houses. He could care less if
we spent the night somewhere else he was gone a lot.
Would stay with baby or I'm sorry, I would stay
with his girlfriends and things like that, back and forth,
back and forth. There were several times that children's services
(17:34):
took us away because of abuse and neglect. Then we'd
always be returned to him because he somehow was rehabilitated
and worthy of raising children again. And it just the
cycle just kept going and going and going until I
was fourteen. And at fourteen what happened was it was
(17:56):
the day of my brother's birthday, poor thing, probably the
worst day of his life life. So the day of
my brother's birthday, my father drove a pickup truck and
at that time there was no such thing as a
quad cab. It was a single cab with a like
(18:16):
a truck bed, but no cover, you know, there was
It didn't have an enclosure, so to speak. It was
just an open truck bed. And he invited his girlfriend
to come out to go out to dinner to celebrate
my brother's birthday. So the girlfriend gets in the truck,
my father gets in the truck, My brother gets in
the truck, and he tells me to get in the
(18:37):
in the back of the truck, in the truck bed.
You know, I'm upset. It's cold, it's leading rain, it's
freezing cold, and it's a good twenty five minute drive
into Eerie, where we were headed for dinner. So as
we're driving and tears are freezing to my cheeks, I'm
(18:59):
banging on the back of the window of the truck,
you know, because I'm freezing and I am wanting warmth.
He drives all the way to Erie, ignoring me crying
and banging on the windows, pulls into Erie police station,
and I thought, well, this is interesting because the last
place I would think he'd want to go as a
police station, because he was, you know, in trouble many
(19:23):
times in his past. The last place he wanted to
be was anywhere near police, so that was odd. But
he got out and went into the police station, comes
back out again. I thought was odd because he was
deaf and most of the time I was his interpreter,
so it was weird that he would have gone in
(19:44):
on his own. But sure enough, he comes back out
and he kind of finger motions me to come with him.
So I get out of the truck, I go in
with him, and a police officer is standing like right
in the doorway. When I come in, he says, can
you help explain to me what he's saying. So my
father signs to me, tell him you're bad and I
(20:08):
don't want you anymore. So I sign it to the
police officer, and the police officer had this like you know,
shocked faith, like please tell him that you he can't
just drop kids here, like this isn't the place to
(20:32):
just drop kids. We don't do that here. He has
to take you home. We'll get you help, but he
can't leave you here. So I then, you know, of course,
interpret that back to my father. My father interprets to
me to tell him that he's not doing that. He's
not taking me home. He doesn't care what happens to me.
So the police officer says to me, well, do you
(20:56):
know anyone that you could stay with? And I said no,
I mean you could call my aunt, his sister. She's
the one that they always take us to, you know,
and we're taken away. So he calls her and she says,
tell him to figure it out. We're done having him
(21:18):
drop off the kids here. He needs to figure it out.
And she wouldn't let me go there. So I didn't
know what to tell him, you know. The police officer says,
anybody else, and I said no, you know, I'm fourteen.
I don't know where else to go, And just out
of anxiety and nervousness, I shoved my hands in my
(21:39):
pocket like I don't know, and I felt a piece
of paper. Now, earlier in that day, I was in
eighth grade, and earlier in that day, the guidance counselor,
who was part time guidance, part time math teacher, she
was my math teacher, also had called me to her office,
the guidance office, because she knew if I was I
(22:01):
had gone to that school district three years prior and
she was involved in my case and we were taken away,
so she knew if I was back with him, it
was not good. So she called me into her office
to ask me how I was doing. Is everything okay?
And at that point I had for fourteen well for
(22:24):
nine years, I had gone from place to place to place,
and it didn't matter what I said. So I really
wasn't cooperative because I didn't feel like it mattered how
I felt. So I didn't really say much to her.
You know, I'm fine, I'm fine. And then she sent
me back to class. But before she sent me back
to class, she wrote her name and phone number on
(22:46):
a piece of paper and she handed it to me
and said, if you ever need anything day night, I
don't care. This is my home phone number. You call me.
And I thought, oh okay, sure my teacher won me
to call her, and I shoved in my pocket right
you know by my guidance counselor slash math teacher. Well
(23:08):
that night was the night that all of this happened
at the police station.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
What a miracle?
Speaker 3 (23:14):
What can you believe?
Speaker 2 (23:15):
It is not insane?
Speaker 1 (23:18):
And I've heard the story before, but every time you've
told me that, even when I read it, but you
told me the first time we ever talked I still
get chills thinking what.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
A who does that? Who does that? And then the
timing of it, yep, yep, I'm sorry, go ahead, exact day,
the exact day.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
It's insane that.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
You were going to need somebody more than ever.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Right, well, you know what, that was divine intervention.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Now that's a hand of God moment.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Absolutely, So I han't. I feel the paper and I say,
I'm kind of you know, being smart, you know, and
I said to the police officer here, so here's here's
my teacher's phone number. She told me today that if
I needed anything day or night, I should call her.
(24:14):
I guess now as as good a time as any.
So he's going to look him in, right, and he's
kind of looking at me like you've got to be
kidding me, like this is her, But he did. He
called her, and you know, I'm I didn't. I didn't
really know what I expected, but it was kind of
like buy in time, like I don't know what else
(24:36):
to say. So he called her and he comes back
out and I'm thinking, oh, great, this ought to be good,
you know, expecting you know, more disappointment, and I don't
know what, and he said, she's on her way, Oh,
it's not insane. So she came and got me. She
(24:59):
came and got me. I stayed with them for a
period of time. We went to they got legal custody
of me, and then after some time, a few months
or so, the social worker that was involved with the
case had said to the family that if they wanted,
(25:24):
that's when they got legal custody. You know, that they
could get legal custody if they wanted. So her name
was Judy Dinsmore and his name was William Dinsmore. Bill
and Judy very well known in their area. They approached
me and said, would you like to make this, you know,
(25:47):
for forever, you know, would you like to be part
of our family? And I was like absolutely, like the
idea that I had a roof over my head, that
I wouldn't be more moving again and again, the fact
that I would have food, that I would have meals,
(26:07):
you know, I didn't have to go to a laundry
met they actually had a washroom dryer.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
In their house.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
I would have my own bedroom. What you know, They're
just it was so crazy, But of course I was
so very grateful and that they they thought we went
to court and all those things and they got custody
of me and I stayed with them for the next
four years, so all of my high school years was
(26:35):
in their care. And during those four years, you know,
I really believe that a lot of who I've been
able to become and the resilience that was within me
was nurtured by them, because had I not been given
a different message in those four years before I went
off to college, I don't I don't know where I
(26:57):
would be. I mean, they didn't tell me I was garbage.
They didn't tell me that they didn't want me, or
that I was worthless or anything. They told me the
exact opposite and said, You're going to be somebody. You know,
we put this work into you because you were worth it,
and you were going to go out and become somebody.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
And you're not just a teacher. You're a special education teacher. Yes,
you yourself gravitate to those kids that other people find difficult.
Other people don't want to necessarily put the time in.
It's a lot of work, but it's a lot of
love and you get it back well.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
And I feel like I was destined. I mean, again,
a lot of who I am is because of the
teachers who took an interest in me along the way,
and I absolutely had to pay that forward. I'm honored
to pay that forward and love on my students the
way I was loved.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
One.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
You reached out to me years ago and said, hey,
you know, I know about the Cold Case Institute. You
think you could help me, And you told me the story,
just like you've done tonight, and I said, well, let
me look into it.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
I'm not sure what I can do.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
You and I both were super upfront and honest with
each other. We both believed we knew who did it,
but I wasn't sure what I could do because we
didn't have a body, there was a lot of evidence,
we didn't have a lot of things we didn't know.
So I thought, well, let me think about it. And
something came to me, because every time I talk to you,
(28:37):
you would say things like I think I can't really
remember this, maybe that I don't know. You would say
those types of things to me, So I thought, you
know what, I'm just gonna throw this at her and
let's see what she says. And I said, hey, you know, Alison,
I've got a crazy thought and I just want to
see if you're open to it, and you were like, what, girl,
(28:59):
what do you got? I'm up for anything, I said, well,
I think hypnosis might help you, maybe some of your stuff.
You have suppressed it and hidden it to save yourself.
And honey, you were like, I'm gonna jump on a plane.
I'm coming to Atlanta. Let's do this thing. But this
is where it gets another hand of God moment. I
(29:21):
didn't know a hypnotist, but I thought, well, nothing ventured, right,
So I call this woman, Monica Miller.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
I had never met her. She had no idea who
I was, no idea who Allison was.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
And I thought, if I can keep talking, maybe I
can convince her. Well, I didn't have to keep talking.
She was lovely and she was like, if there's somebody
that needs my help, I'm going to help them. Can
you get her to Atlanta? I said, girl, she's on
a plane, she's already coming. And you know what struck
(30:01):
me about Monica was this woman went to the University
of Florida. She worked in finance, but then she decided,
you know what, I need to help people. I need
to help people on a different level. And she changed
the course of her career. And so not only did
(30:22):
I reach out to her and get a yes, which
was crazy. She didn't charge anybody, she didn't want any money,
she didn't even want no credit. And I thought, this
is an incredible person and this is who Alison needs.
So I pick her up from the airport. We go
(30:42):
straight to Monica's office. Y'all. The first thing this woman does.
If any of y'all have ever had like a really good,
expensive professional massage, you know how you walk in and
the lighting is perfect, and they've got some you know, fabuls,
the candles going in some fantastic sin you know what
(31:03):
I'm talking about, Like you know you're in the right place.
That's how her room felt. But she not only invited
Alison in, she invited me so I could see it,
so I could understand. This is for comfort. She is
safe here, this is a place she can relax. And
if she's got any memories, honey, they're gonna come about.
(31:25):
So Alison and I thought it would be great tonight
if y'all could straight here from Monica Miller. So it
is a absolute honor for me to welcome Monica Miller
to Zone seven.
Speaker 5 (31:41):
Thank you, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Are you kidding?
Speaker 1 (31:44):
I mean, Monica I witnessed something that to this day
when I tell the story, knocks people out because, y'all,
here's another cool thing about Monica. I was in the
waiting room and I thought, well, I say, waiting room, lobby,
whatever it was. I felt like, this person that I
care about is gone in there for some type of
procedure and I'm waiting to see whether or not it's
(32:04):
going to work. Well, you know, I don't know if
it's going to be forty minutes or two hours or
five hours. I have no idea. Well, Monica was so fantastic.
She texted me the whole time. And Monica, I got
to tell you, I thought that was super thoughtful of
you too, not to leave me hanging and not like, well,
I don't know if she's remembering something horrible and needs
(32:28):
some type of comfort. Is she going to hold her
hand or is it not working and she's going to
be super disappointed? Like I needed some type of heads up.
But you were just fantastic.
Speaker 5 (32:39):
Oh well, I'm glad that was helpful. You know, the
sessions the way I work with people can be so deep.
It's really hard to put a clock on it or
a timer. So if there's a family member or you know,
sometimes it's a it's a younger person or a concerned relative.
I'll say, Okay, it's going to be like around three hours.
(33:00):
But then if it moves, if the needle moves longer
or shorter, I try to let everyone know because it
is really a waiting game where you're like, are they okay?
Did she kidnap them?
Speaker 4 (33:09):
Right?
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Right?
Speaker 5 (33:11):
Because remember it, Alison, it went. It went closer to
almost four hours with it.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
It did?
Speaker 1 (33:15):
It Sure did. That's what I was going to say.
And it was just a comfort to me, you know.
And here's the way I've described this, and Monica you
jump in and correct me, but this is the way
I kind of saw it. All of us have memories,
and you may have a memory from fourth grade or
twelfth grade. You'll never remember it, but then a song
(33:37):
will come on, or you'll smell something, or you'll see
something and you're like, oh, I remember that, Like it
takes you right back. So everybody sub level has got
memories that if the right thing comes about, you're going
to remember it immediately. Is that accurate?
Speaker 5 (33:55):
It's a what a perfect description of how hypnosis can work,
because you just you get into that timeline or that space,
or even the feeling. You know, it can be a feeling.
Oftentimes people are coming to me for something different, like
an emotional struggle. You trace the feeling and the body
back to what started it. And that's what you know
(34:16):
we were doing that day with Alison. It's like, let's
trace you back to this moment in time and then
open that up and expand it.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
But trauma, I mean, whether it's sexual assault, child abuse,
your mother being murdered, whatever it is, you're going to
have memories that maybe you don't even allow yourself. I'm
not going there. I'm not going to think about it.
If I start to think about it, I'm gonna do
something different. I'm gonna sing a song. I'mingll go for
(34:46):
a jog, I'm gonna pat a dog. I'm gonna do
something so I don't have to remember it. But it
is there, and you got her in a quiet, beautiful
space with perfect just lights sounds. I mean, I thought
it was if it was ever gonna work, it was
gonna work with you.
Speaker 3 (35:05):
That's all I can tell you.
Speaker 5 (35:08):
I'm glad. I'm glad. I'm glad you both had that
trust in me. You know, it's for me if i'm
you know, I get it from my grandfather. I don't
say yes to something if I'm not going to do
it to the absolute best of my ability. I don't.
I don't, you know, go halfway into things. So if
I say I'm going to help, I'm going to do
(35:28):
everything I can that's within my abilities to help.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Well, you did, and I think that you know, you've
got other expertise, like with yoga and whatnot. And I
think when people are super in tune to mind, body
and spirit, it can show. And I think again, I
don't know how to really say what this experience was
(35:54):
for me, other than to say I knew instantly watching
the two with y'all that it was going to work.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
I knew it.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
So Alison, why don't you tell everybody what happened, what
came from it?
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Well, I want to say, I you know, I was
super nervous to do this, but with this case, I
was willing to do anything. Just the way you described
it is exactly how I felt at that point. I
had been toying with that idea. Several people had had
mentioned maybe you should do hypnotism, but I was too afraid.
(36:29):
I was too afraid to take that step because I
didn't know what was locked in that head, and I
felt like I was five, almost six. I was their ears.
The chances of me seeing or hearing something are pretty high,
and I wasn't sure if I really did or not.
Going there, I was super anxious and nervous because I
(36:53):
what was about to take place. But as soon as
I got into her room, it was exactly the way
you described it.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
It was.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
It was calm and peaceful and quiet. It was serene,
you know, the lighting was perfect. It just made you
feel like you're walking into a big hug.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Absolutely absolutely, I.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Didn't feel nervous anymore walking into that office. I you know,
I sat down, you know, and got comfortable, and we
got right at it. I don't think right at very long.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
It wasn't long for my phone ding I had a
text from her and Monica. I got to tell you.
I remember even making a joke after you were so
gracious to let me come in and got to see
everything and laid out how it was going to operate.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
I remember joking with you, I don't want to leave.
I want to stay in this room and just relax.
Speaker 5 (37:43):
You're next to them.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
Because it was just that welcoming and that calming.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
It was.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
It was unbelievable. But Monica, why don't you walk through
a little bit of how you work? Like just like
we know because we were there, but like, what did
your process?
Speaker 5 (38:01):
Well? So for this particular case, I knew we were
going back to a time and date. So you know,
oftentimes I'm working with someone and say it's you know,
for you know, confidence or anxiety or panic stuff, which
is pretty common on my schedule, we're going with a feeling.
Well with Allison, we had to go to a time
and day, so it was really taking a direct timeline
(38:23):
back to that night. And a funny thing that happened
when you both arrived is y'all surprised me. I had
no idea that Allison was a CODA, a child of
deaf adults. So I then instantly, right there in the lobby,
I looked at you, Cheryl, and I was like, uh, information,
(38:43):
that would have been good to know because and I
joked with you and I'm like, I'm like, you're lucky
you showed up to me because because I was like,
we are going to have to handle this differently because
I knew instantly that Alison telling me, you know, was
about five years old. I'm like, you became their ears
and their translator. And I knew that would be how
(39:05):
her life was lived up into that point. And I
also knew that whatever we went back and found that
it wouldn't be a kid listening through the wall to
hear words like if you don't shut up, I'm gonna
but you know, she's not gonna have that. So I
knew that the information that we would get would come
(39:25):
differently because she saw the world and hurt it differently
than her parents.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Oh that's a great point. That's a great point.
Speaker 5 (39:37):
Yeah, So that really had to be taken into consideration,
and and I knew Alison was nervous. So part of
my process is, you know, really know the whole story
as much as I can for the event or the
feeling or the issue we're trying to resolve, know everything
around it and all the key players. So in this
(39:58):
the key players is Alison, her brother, her mom, her dad,
because this is a night of and on top of that,
I know that generally if someone hasn't done hypnosis before,
they're going to be anxious or nervous, and excitement also
can feel the same as anxiety or nervousness, so there
could be a part that they're excited about, but also
(40:20):
because it's unknown, it comes off as anxiety or nervousness.
Is to say to someone a line I use often
and I used it with Alison. I'm like, the worst
thing you've ever been through in your whole entire life
up until this moment, right here and right now, you've
been through it, and here you are. You've made it.
So we know there's nowhere to go but up, and
(40:42):
there's nothing to do but find out more information than
perhaps you're aware that you know. And the mind is
like a black box. It'll lock things in and if
it's part of a traumatic event, it might push that
away because it's to protect you. And so our deal
that day was to let's do everything to find a
place of safety and comfort, of interest and curiosity to
(41:06):
pull out data that might have been sort of stuffed
away in the subconscious mind. Let's see if we can
work together to pick this lock. And so that's often
how I work with that kind of stuff in mind.
And Alison, it did a really cool thing. She brought
the book in. Do you remember that, Alison, you brought
the book in my book. Yeah, you brought it in.
You showed it to me.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
Oh I forgot that.
Speaker 5 (41:28):
Yeah, it's a really important part because you went to
put it away. I said no, no, no, no, don't
put it away. I sat it on the console. I
left it sitting upright and open. And your book was
staring at us the whole time.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Oh my gosh. And the cover of that book is
my mother's face and it looks like she's looking at you.
Speaker 5 (41:47):
Yes, And the cover of that book told more of
the story that you had somehow within you known because
it's what led you to pick that picture. And we
talked about that in the end, which was really cool.
But we let yeah, we had the book standing up
there as a part of the process, like let her
in on this, let her be here. I mean, she's
(42:08):
you got the note in your pocket.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
That's right, amen, Amen, she's how you.
Speaker 5 (42:13):
Got that note in your pocket. You know, when people
leave us, there's the you know, energy can't be created
or destroyed. They just go into a different form, often
not the like spooky ugy ghost thing, but they go
into a different form. And in her own way, she's
still around, and you know, she placed something into the
heart and the mind of your teacher that day, and
(42:35):
that's how on that day you got the note. And
so things like that are the reason why I'm like,
let her like, let her be a part of this,
let her hang out, let's see what happens.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
You want to know something crazy, Well, of course I do.
I have the book sitting right here next to me
in case they have to reference it. And she's looking
at me right now while we're having yeah, oh my gosh, yeah, yeah,
it happens.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
It happens absolutely, and you know, it's one of those things.
And Monica, I'm sure you know this, but Alison, I
don't know if you do. But the FBI actually trains
their folks if they're stuck on a case or they
can't get past some type of point in an investigation,
to literally sit still in a quiet place. They even
(43:22):
encourage people go sit in your closet like no windows,
no distractions, get steal and get quiet and you may
have an epiphany. So on every level, this works. I mean,
it just does if you allow it to work and
you're with somebody that can help you, like Monica did.
(43:45):
Because again, it wasn't long before I got that first
text message, and then it wasn't long before my phone
was ding ding ding, So things were happening and she
was keeping me updated. But do you want to tell.
Speaker 3 (43:59):
Some folks about the snow on the car?
Speaker 2 (44:03):
I want to say I was cut a little skeptical
going into this too, Like I totally wanted it to
work and was willing to do the work and whatever
needed to be done, but I wasn't sure what I
thought or believed about hypnosis, Like I don't know, you know,
kind of sounds hokey, but hopefully it works. So I
(44:23):
was open to it, but wasn't convinced that I would
have results. So it was a very pleasant surprise. I
would say that I felt like I was just relaxing,
you know, I was just I think you even said that, Monica.
You were like just relax, you know, and leat and whatever,
(44:49):
and to kind of fast forward to what you were
just mentioning the snow. I often felt felt like or
I often had memories of random things like we all do,
and I wasn't really sure where it fit in my life,
you know, in the timeline, I didn't know where things fit.
(45:12):
And I guess, like when I have talked about this
process and this experience. I have said that it's not like,
oh my gosh, this you know, thing came out of
nowhere and I remembered something, And maybe it is for
other people, It just that wasn't it for me. I
felt like you walked me step by step by step,
(45:35):
you know, holding my hand all the way through it
and said then what happened? Then what happened? So I
felt like the memories that I had were put in
time order, and when I was done, I was like,
oh my gosh, I didn't realize that's where that memory fit.
And when we were going through the process, I had
(45:59):
remembered like my mother had this cool, you know, blue
Mustang and it was like a sports car and in
the winner, she didn't really drive it that much for
obvious reasons, and I remembered there was snow on the
back of the the back of her car, and I
just didn't realize that it was that night that that
(46:23):
memory came through. And the only way I was able
to like time order that was because you took me
step by step, and you know, I remember saying, you know,
like he brought us down the stairs. It was you know,
he was holding Aaron, you know, in his arms, holding
my hand, taking us down the stairs, and that I
looked at the at her car before we got into
(46:46):
his car, his Bronco, and I noticed that there was
snow off the back of the car, like the trunk,
so to speak. And I I remembered that because it
was snowing like crazy, and I could tell how much
snow had fallen because there was like a ledge, like
(47:08):
when you wipe off a ton of snow. There's like,
you know, a ledge of snow, so you could see
how much has fallen. And I didn't realize that that
memory I had had before was that night. So in
that moment, you know, it's snowing like crazy, He's putting
us in the car, and I look over and notice
(47:29):
that the trunk of her car, snow had been wiped
off of it. Huge, huge, too.
Speaker 5 (47:37):
Huge, right, And you know, by going through a timeline
like that, the really cool thing is is you're sort
of looking around and in that moment, in the truth
of that moment, yes, you're only five years old, but
once again mom and Dad had a huge fight and
it was big and it was loud for you, and
(48:00):
you know, you were listening because at one point you said,
you know, Dad came down the hallway and was like,
made you get in bed. You know, he kind of
saw you peeking. And you might only be five, but
by the age of five, you're walking, you're talking, you're
looking around, you're seeing the world, you're hearing the world.
You're aware, and you were suspicious. You were like, what
(48:23):
has gone on here? You were suspicious, and you were
taking in because again, you are their ears. So you,
as a five year old, are having to listen to
big conversations and basically translate back to them and talk
to the other people. You're being forced to pay more
attention to the world around you in a kind of
(48:45):
adult way than most other kids would be. Yes, And
so I used that. I was like, heck, yeah, we're
going to use it because her observancy is going to
be more than just like, you know, a little kid
who's never seen trauma, who doesn't have to think about, like,
let me help mom and dad explain to the grocery
store guy what they need. It's very different. So I
(49:06):
was like, we're going to use this.
Speaker 3 (49:07):
It's a tool.
Speaker 5 (49:08):
And the cool thing about going through the night piece
by piece is you were right back in it as
that child. But also it's the grown up you. The
grown up Alison was there, I'm using prompts okay, and
then what happens next? What do you see? What do
you hear? And the grown up you is almost right
(49:30):
there holding hands with the little one and saying okay.
So you know, this is how.
Speaker 3 (49:37):
It can be.
Speaker 5 (49:38):
Even if it's you know, like Cheryl you had mentioned,
if it's you know, something trump traumatic or terrible, you're
almost once removed. I always say there's a big difference
about being like someone who's in a war or sitting
in the front row of a movie theater watching a
movie about war. You are once removed. And those things
(49:59):
go hand in hand, which is why I explained to
Alison straight a had them in it. You know, she
you know, put her by in my chair. I said,
the worst thing that's ever happened to you know, the
whole entire life has already happened, and you've made it through.
So now let's see what we can get from it
if taken.
Speaker 1 (50:11):
Us well, when you sit in me that text as
an investigator, I'm like, he transported her in her own car,
So that tells me he took his car to take
the children to the babysitter, but then used her car
(50:32):
to dispose of her.
Speaker 5 (50:34):
Or that's where he put It's where he put her temporarily,
don't you know.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
Either way, But in my mind that's where I went immediately,
and I'm like, of course he did. That's why Febe goes, oh,
well she left. I saw her driving down Main Street
at whatever time. So you know, I just appreciate everything
that you did, Monica, because you know, I knew that
he was my number one. I know that he was
(50:58):
Allison's number one, us big. But her memories and then
the next text that I got that was pretty chilling
was that she knew there were all these loud sounds.
There were loud sounds and they suddenly stopped, so she knew.
She even knew in the timeline when her mom was
(51:19):
killed in that house, she knew.
Speaker 5 (51:23):
And like I said, because she was a highly observant
child because of necessity, when she and her brother were
being marched out of that house by their dad in
the middle of the night, she was looking around. And Alison,
when you looked around the house and you observed everything,
(51:44):
what observance of absolute mayhem? Did you see nothing? You
were like, it looks everything's fine. You didn't see you
didn't see a mess, you didn't see blood, you didn't
see things talcked. It seemed eerily quiet and perfect, and
(52:08):
that can tell a story of how he committed this act.
Speaker 6 (52:15):
You, rookie detectives, if you were working with somebody who
is a coda, as Monica says, child of deaf adults,
be sure to tell everybody on your team, because I
don't think that would have dawned on me to tell you.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
I guess I thought it would come out if necessary.
But I just learned something good tonight, So I appreciate
you again. Monica, still training and Alison, I'll tell you, you know,
I do think you were brave. Fear did not stop you.
You and I, you know, both joked that neither one
of us had ever used hypnosis. I've had plenty of
(52:57):
victims that had suppressed memories and with counselors, and I
learned all about disassociation and whatnot. But I had never
used hypnosis, and I tried to use it myself once
in nineteen seventy four, but I failed. I got my
dad's pocket watch and went back and forth in front
(53:18):
of him so that he would buy me a mini bike.
Speaker 3 (53:21):
But it sounds.
Speaker 5 (53:25):
It was a worthy effort.
Speaker 1 (53:26):
He never was a worthy effort. But he was not
like Alison. He was not open to it, so he
wouldn't get with the program. But again, Monica, you know,
your generosity and your expertise is so appreciated. I mean,
I will be forever grateful for what you did for
(53:48):
Alison in this case. And Alison, your bravery, your willingness
to get on a plane and trust somebody you had
never dealt with. Really, you didn't know me much better
than you new Monica. And I just know that your
mama is so impressed and just probably a little knocked
(54:08):
out by everything that you have accomplished. But before we
in this, Alison, tell everybody about the phone call.
Speaker 2 (54:19):
I have worked and worked and worked. I've networked. I've
done podcasts and interviews and everything I can think of.
I've gone to conferences and crime different things, wrote a book,
you know, everything I could think of. And I was always,
you know, just battling with what do I do next?
(54:42):
And here I am like, well, you know, I'm packing
for an Irish dance competition that I was taking my
daughter to the next day in Milwaukee, and my phone
rings and it is the State Police. And I I thought,
what in the world at eight thirty at night, the
(55:03):
night before a holiday. No less, you know, it's the
night before Thanksgiving. My phone rings and it says state
Police on it, and I thought, well, that's weird. So
I answer it and it's the investigator who was in
Pennsylvania working my mother's case. And you know, I say hello,
(55:24):
and I I feel like the right descriptor is the
Charlie Brown teacher, because you know, he says this is
this is trueer gible and and I'm thinking, okay, And
he said, we interviewed Bud today, and I said, oh, okay.
(55:45):
And I'm thinking he's going to tell me something obviously,
or he wouldn't be calling me the night before that's
useful or beneficial, or it's got to be good news,
because why would you call me now? But never did
I imagine the words that came out of him his mouth.
I don't think in my entire life I have actually
(56:05):
fathomed what those words would sound like. And he said
to me, brace yourself, Alison. We interviewed Bud today and
he confessed Mic drop, but I don't think I heard
that right what And you know, he couldn't get into
(56:30):
the details or specifics, but he said he wanted me
to know that he was at that moment that he
was calling me, he had been arrested, was in police custody,
and that night was being arraigned for homicide and aggravated assault.
(56:54):
Absolute miracle. Like people in my situation don't hear those words,
Like people don't hold on to that that crime for
forty four years and wake up one day and decide
to tell the truth. It's unheard of, correct, But.
Speaker 3 (57:12):
Just like everything else in this case, it's unheard of.
Speaker 1 (57:15):
So that to me was.
Speaker 3 (57:16):
A fitting ending.
Speaker 1 (57:18):
And I could not wait to reach out to Monica
because she deserved quickly before.
Speaker 3 (57:26):
Thanksgiving to know what happened too.
Speaker 1 (57:28):
And it was a great thing to be able to,
you know, communicate with both of y'all.
Speaker 3 (57:32):
And what a Thanksgiving, oh my god less indeed.
Speaker 5 (57:38):
And that explained to me, I was like Cheryl's reaching
out to me on Thanksgiving Day? What in the world?
And now now I know why I didn't know it
as the night before, My goodness, Wow, it was one.
Speaker 1 (57:51):
Of the best Thanksgiving, and you know, all of your
posts and the way people were supporting you, and and
you know, even all these years, Alison, the way you
have moved, the way you have operated, the way you
have stayed true has has been something to watch too.
So I just appreciate you both. I am great.
Speaker 2 (58:11):
That's all my mama in me.
Speaker 1 (58:13):
I hear you. I believe it one hundred percent. Lonnie
deserves the credit, there's no doubt. But I do want
both of you to know we will do another one.
We will have an update when we can and when
Alison can share everything after the court process. So just
just wait. There will be a part two.
Speaker 3 (58:31):
And I'm going to tell.
Speaker 1 (58:32):
You right now, y'all ain't gonna be ready for that,
so you won't believe it. We will go and we
will continue to celebrate Thanksgiving. But Monica Miller, thank you,
Alison Daker, thank you, and congratulations.
Speaker 7 (58:44):
Honey, thanks for having me, thank you so much. Congratulations, Alison,
thank you, and thank you for all of your hard
work and all of this.
Speaker 5 (58:56):
Oh you're You're welcome, and I'm you know, I'm interested
to see what other details come out, because we had
some we had some heavy guesses. But I guess maybe
we'll possibly.
Speaker 3 (59:08):
Know, y'all.
Speaker 4 (59:10):
I'm gonna end Zone seven the way that I always
do with a quote, allow yourself to see what you
don't allow yourself to see, Milton Ericson.
Speaker 1 (59:24):
I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.
Y'all. The new year is fast approaching, and I am
telling you twenty twenty six, we got big plans over
here at Zone seven. We are going back to once
a week releases. Now listen before y'all get upset, Doctor
Priya and Josh are going nowhere. What we're gonna do
(00:21):
is once a month have them with us, and it's
going to be incredible. But you also have the opportunity
to meet them in person. In twenty twenty six, that's right, honey,
we are hitting the road. Zone seven is teaming up
with Body Bags and Crime Stories and we are doing
(00:44):
a national tour called the ten eight Tour. We're kicking
this thing off in Atlanta January twenty third, twenty twenty six,
at the original Zone seven Manual's Tavern. Good stuff coming up,
see y'all in twenty twenty six. It was not just
(01:13):
snowing on January the seventh, nineteen eighty one, y'all, It
was a blizzard. That's the night that Lonnie Rogers vanished,
vanished from Hayfield Township, Pennsylvania. Her daughter Alison Dyker, always
believed something horrible had to have happened to her. She
(01:37):
knew her mama would not have left her and her brother.
Even though she was little, she was only five or six.
She knew that she knew that connection, She knew that
love that cannot be denied. Alison knew that things were
not right when she was told old her mom left
(02:01):
behind her hearing aids, her glasses, her medication, and her car.
Remember now it's a blizzard. Where is she going without
those things and more importantly, without her children? Y'all, we
have waited on this episode. I have wanted to talk
(02:23):
to Alison for a long time, but we waited till
it was right. And tonight is right, y'all. I have
the privilege to welcome Alison Dyker to Zone seven. Alison,
how are you, honey?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I'm good. Thank you so much for having me. It's
nice absolutely.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
You know. I like to always start by you telling
us about your mama.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
It just got a warm fuzzy. She was beautiful, beautiful,
blonng blonde hair like golden blonde. She was always smiling
and just a happy temperament like people telled me that
she would just light up a room like, people would
(03:12):
gravitate to her. And the most interesting thing is all
of this would take place, and she was deaf, so
she could read lips, so she could still communicate and
contribute to conversations. Even though it was difficult for her,
(03:33):
it didn't make people or other It was also difficult
for others, but it didn't make people shy away from her.
I know now, like if I see someone or hear
someone talking Spanish, I don't necessarily feel comfortable approaching them
because I don't speak Spanish. But that was not the
case for her. Even though she, you know, signed, people
(03:56):
did not shy away from her. And what I hear
from you know, when people tell me that they knew
my mother, it's always that she was the shining, you know,
ray of sunshine, and that she loved music, and she
loved people, and she loved dancing. And you would, I'm sure,
be surprised to hear dancing, but you know, they say
(04:18):
that when you lose one sense, other senses are heightened.
That she could feel the vibration of the music and
truly feel the music like none other. And my grandfather,
her father, was a dance instructor, and my mother was
his partner. When he did lessons, he brought my mother
(04:39):
along and she would help teach the lessons with my grandfather.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
That is remarkable. So she literally just had a light
inside of her. And I'll be honest with you, I
think it shows through the photographs.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
I believe that too. Like when I look, you know,
I wrote a book, as you know, and the cover
is is a picture of my mother holding like it's
just a front of facial shots, and she's got her
hands clasped together under her chin, and it looks like
she's looking into your soul.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Yes, yes, but she does. She looks so beautiful. She
always looks happy in the photographs. She always looks super
put together.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Yep. So tell us when did you.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Decide to write the book A daughter's Journey, a story
of resilience?
Speaker 3 (05:31):
When did you decide to do that?
Speaker 2 (05:33):
So it was something that I had always kind of
thought about in the back of my head. I always, like,
in high school, I liked to journal I wrote poems,
did different journaling activities, and I always thought, like, in
the back of my head, it might be kind of
meat to write a book about this story and about
(05:55):
you know, my journey. But I, you know, I just
life gets in the way and you're busy, and you know,
I went to college and got married. I had a
private message from a woman who said her name is
Suzanne Read and she wrote the book Anonymous Tip She
(06:16):
Before she wrote that book, she reached out to me
and said that she was writing a book about several
missing person stories in Pennsylvania and did I would I
grant her permission to include my mother's story in the book.
And oddly enough, I felt two different ways. One I
(06:38):
felt pride and absolutely please tell my mother's story, but
the other part of me was kind of like, no,
that's my job. Like I had this, like this surprising
reaction to well, you can tell a little bit of
the story, you know, just an excerpt in your book,
because in the back of my mind I had this
(06:59):
like that I'm the one that's supposed to tell her story.
And so shortly after her book was published, I wanted
to start writing. But I have three very active children
that I'm proud of all their sports and different things.
But it's hard to find time. I'm also a teacher
(07:22):
full time, so I'm a special ed teacher, so there's
a lot of extra paperwork and things that have to happen,
and I just never could find the time to sit
and do it. And then COVID hit. So COVID year
was the year I wrote the book because we were
home and everything was canceled, and if they were allowed
(07:44):
to go somewhere, we weren't allowed to go in. I
had to wait in the car, and only the you know,
my child could go in. So there was a lot
of wait time that happened in COVID. And oddly enough,
that was also the fortieth anniversary of her disappearance. So
I made a commitment to myself and to my mother
that in that year, in that fortieth year of her disappearance,
(08:08):
I was going to write this book. And I had
no idea. I never wrote anything like that before, and
I had no idea how long it would take. But
I was determined that I was going to do everything
I could to try to, you know, at least get
a good chunk of this book done. I wanted it
to be released on January seventh, which was the day
(08:33):
of her disappearance, and I ended up releasing it in February,
so I only missed the target by a little bit,
but I got it out, and I sure did very
proud of it.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
And you know, when you talk in the book about
only being five and her tucking you in. I mean
it just you're right there as a mama, like you
know that routine almost like that's the time. The nighttime
routine was I think one of the most important for
me because it was.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Quiet, it was just us.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
I could, you know, hear all about their day and
everything they were excited about for tomorrow. And I always
told my children I would kiss them good night twice,
so they had an extra one, you know, so if
I ever got called out to a scene or I
wasn't there for some reason, one day, they had one.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
You know, it's fair.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
So even the way you started the book, you had me,
and then you went into the thickness of this cold
case file and you go into this journey that it
is a journey of resilience that is properly named. But
I tell you, y'all, you need to get the book.
You need to hear what Allison went through because we
(09:48):
ain't gonna be able to cover everything tonight, and you
need to know every bit of it. So here's the thing.
You knew who your dad was, You know what happened
to you around fourteen. Tell everybody what happened after your
mom went missing?
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yes, So the night that she disappeared, my parents had
been in an argument. You know, they were separated. He
actually came back to the to the apartment to live,
not to live, but to stay over the holiday. She
felt really guilty about him not being around the kids
(10:27):
for the holiday. And you know that the weather in
that area is so horrendous. You know, it's in the winter.
It is it is like the tundra, I say. And
you know, for him to travel from his parents would
have been a good half hour drive, and there was
a big storm coming in, just as as would be
(10:48):
the norm during that season. So she told him that
we're not getting back together, but for the sake of
the children, if you would like to come for the holidays,
you can come and stay, but after the holidays you.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Have to leave.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
And he came. The holidays took place, and he refused
to leave. He said, these are my kids, this is
my home. I'm not leaving. They continue to argue day
after day, and on the night of January January sixth,
(11:30):
she just had had enough, and not the night, but
the day she had had enough and knew he wasn't
going to leave, and they were arguing. Things were not
good so she realized that it was going to have
to be her that left, and she had already talked
to my aunt, her sister about, you know, we should
raise the kids together. I should you know, go. It
(11:52):
was a four hour drive to where my aunt Glenny
was living at the time, and they just decided over
Thanksgiving that they should get together and my mom should
move there with the kids and they would raise the
kids together. So she went to my grandfather that day,
so this is January sixth. She went to my grandfather's
house and said, he won't leave, and you know, I
(12:16):
need gas money. I need, you know, money to leave him,
so to speak. And my grandfather said, we'll help you
with whatever you need. He said, all I have right
now is three twenty dollar bills and he is sixty dollars,
and he handed her three twenty dollar bills. She you know,
of course thanked him. At the time, in nineteen eighty one,
(12:37):
that was probably a good chunk of change, you know,
that probably went pretty far then. But she went home,
they you know, had dinner together, arguing happened, and a
lot of this, I know because we lived in a
duplex and we were the upstairs family and there was
a family underneath us, and that family reported to the
(13:01):
police that there was a lot of yelling and banging
and you know, unusual.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Sounds, and both of your parents were hearing impaired. Yes,
they so when they argued, you could tell it, oh.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
For sure, for sure. And a lot of that is
like when they're arguing, they're like for someone who's deaf,
to get each other's attention, they you know, bang on
the floor and the vibration is felt and then you
know they turn around to find out, you know, what
is needed. But if you're arguing, you're not just like
(13:38):
tapping the floor. You're probably you know, stomping because you're
angry in addition to trying to get the person's attention.
So there was a lot of noise because of the arguing.
They also don't realize like how loud they're being, and
you know, they're they're yelling at each other, but it's
it's probably not words you hear. It's probably more like
(13:58):
guttural sounds like yelling in brunts almost because their vocabulary
or their words were not perfect, you know, and their communication.
But anyway, so that night, she put the kids to
bed on the back cover of my book. It's one
(14:20):
of those that catches you, you know, right in the gut.
I talk about her tucking me in for the very
last time, and I had no idea, but she tucked
me in and talked my brother in. They, you know,
continued to argue. I heard them arguing, and sometime in
(14:42):
the night my father claims that she left with another man,
and or she left for another man, and he had
no idea where she was. He woke us up at
three o'clock in the morning, us meeting my brother and
I who I was five in my b there was three.
He woke us up and said, I have to take
(15:04):
you to the babysitter. Your mother left us for a man.
And you know, I just I helped get Aaron ready
and off to the babysitter we went. That was three
in the morning. He reported to work at six in
the morning. Actually it was six oh six. He was
six minutes late. And this was I know that sounds
ridiculous because I'm late all the time for work, but
(15:27):
you know, by minutes. But he was never, ever, ever,
ever late. He was, if anything, he was early. So
that was uncharacteristic of him. So it was odd. He
worked at a foundry where they like melted metal to
make screws and nuts and bolts and things like that.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
So if he drove her somewhere, you're talking about an
hour and a half somewhere and an hour and a
half back to be at work.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
On top, there were three hours, you know, unaccounted for.
He claimed that.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
He was the farthest he could drive is an hour
and a half. Oh yes, right, okay, got you.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah, and it was a blizzard that night, so there.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Is also a blizzard. I mean that he couldn't get
an hour and a half away mm hmm. Could he
have disposed of her at his work?
Speaker 2 (16:16):
So that was a theory, But from what I was
told from the police, that wasn't possible because like if
you think of like a deep friar, you know, that's
that's you know, molten oil. If you put water in there,
it would like blow up, you know. Back yeah, okay,
(16:37):
And the way it was explained to me is that
is it's not possible because the human body is made
of so much water that it would have shut the
whole machine down.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Okay, So let's fast forward a little bit. What happened
when you were fourteen?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
So I my mother was just disappeared, didn't know where
she was. But my brother and I were left to
live with him, and we would go back and forth.
You know, he would decide to be a father and
then decide he doesn't want to be a father. He
would drop us off at his sisters, my aunts to stay.
(17:13):
We would my brother and I would like go to neighbors' houses,
to you know, friends' houses. He could care less if
we spent the night somewhere else he was gone a lot.
Would stay with baby or I'm sorry, I would stay
with his girlfriends and things like that, back and forth,
back and forth. There were several times that children's services
(17:34):
took us away because of abuse and neglect. Then we'd
always be returned to him because he somehow was rehabilitated
and worthy of raising children again. And it just the
cycle just kept going and going and going until I
was fourteen. And at fourteen what happened was it was
(17:56):
the day of my brother's birthday, poor thing, probably the
worst day of his life life. So the day of
my brother's birthday, my father drove a pickup truck and
at that time there was no such thing as a
quad cab. It was a single cab with a like
(18:16):
a truck bed, but no cover, you know, there was
It didn't have an enclosure, so to speak. It was
just an open truck bed. And he invited his girlfriend
to come out to go out to dinner to celebrate
my brother's birthday. So the girlfriend gets in the truck,
my father gets in the truck, My brother gets in
the truck, and he tells me to get in the
(18:37):
in the back of the truck, in the truck bed.
You know, I'm upset. It's cold, it's leading rain, it's
freezing cold, and it's a good twenty five minute drive
into Eerie, where we were headed for dinner. So as
we're driving and tears are freezing to my cheeks, I'm
(18:59):
banging on the back of the window of the truck,
you know, because I'm freezing and I am wanting warmth.
He drives all the way to Erie, ignoring me crying
and banging on the windows, pulls into Erie police station,
and I thought, well, this is interesting because the last
place I would think he'd want to go as a
police station, because he was, you know, in trouble many
(19:23):
times in his past. The last place he wanted to
be was anywhere near police, so that was odd. But
he got out and went into the police station, comes
back out again. I thought was odd because he was
deaf and most of the time I was his interpreter,
so it was weird that he would have gone in
(19:44):
on his own. But sure enough, he comes back out
and he kind of finger motions me to come with him.
So I get out of the truck, I go in
with him, and a police officer is standing like right
in the doorway. When I come in, he says, can
you help explain to me what he's saying. So my
father signs to me, tell him you're bad and I
(20:08):
don't want you anymore. So I sign it to the
police officer, and the police officer had this like you know,
shocked faith, like please tell him that you he can't
just drop kids here, like this isn't the place to
(20:32):
just drop kids. We don't do that here. He has
to take you home. We'll get you help, but he
can't leave you here. So I then, you know, of course,
interpret that back to my father. My father interprets to
me to tell him that he's not doing that. He's
not taking me home. He doesn't care what happens to me.
So the police officer says to me, well, do you
(20:56):
know anyone that you could stay with? And I said no,
I mean you could call my aunt, his sister. She's
the one that they always take us to, you know,
and we're taken away. So he calls her and she says,
tell him to figure it out. We're done having him
(21:18):
drop off the kids here. He needs to figure it out.
And she wouldn't let me go there. So I didn't
know what to tell him, you know. The police officer says,
anybody else, and I said no, you know, I'm fourteen.
I don't know where else to go, And just out
of anxiety and nervousness, I shoved my hands in my
(21:39):
pocket like I don't know, and I felt a piece
of paper. Now, earlier in that day, I was in
eighth grade, and earlier in that day, the guidance counselor,
who was part time guidance, part time math teacher, she
was my math teacher, also had called me to her office,
the guidance office, because she knew if I was I
(22:01):
had gone to that school district three years prior and
she was involved in my case and we were taken away,
so she knew if I was back with him, it
was not good. So she called me into her office
to ask me how I was doing. Is everything okay?
And at that point I had for fourteen well for
(22:24):
nine years, I had gone from place to place to place,
and it didn't matter what I said. So I really
wasn't cooperative because I didn't feel like it mattered how
I felt. So I didn't really say much to her.
You know, I'm fine, I'm fine. And then she sent
me back to class. But before she sent me back
to class, she wrote her name and phone number on
(22:46):
a piece of paper and she handed it to me
and said, if you ever need anything day night, I
don't care. This is my home phone number. You call me.
And I thought, oh okay, sure my teacher won me
to call her, and I shoved in my pocket right
you know by my guidance counselor slash math teacher. Well
(23:08):
that night was the night that all of this happened
at the police station.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
What a miracle?
Speaker 3 (23:14):
What can you believe?
Speaker 2 (23:15):
It is not insane?
Speaker 1 (23:18):
And I've heard the story before, but every time you've
told me that, even when I read it, but you
told me the first time we ever talked I still
get chills thinking what.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
A who does that? Who does that? And then the
timing of it, yep, yep, I'm sorry, go ahead, exact day,
the exact day.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
It's insane that.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
You were going to need somebody more than ever.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Right, well, you know what, that was divine intervention.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Now that's a hand of God moment.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Absolutely, So I han't. I feel the paper and I say,
I'm kind of you know, being smart, you know, and
I said to the police officer here, so here's here's
my teacher's phone number. She told me today that if
I needed anything day or night, I should call her.
(24:14):
I guess now as as good a time as any.
So he's going to look him in, right, and he's
kind of looking at me like you've got to be
kidding me, like this is her, But he did. He
called her, and you know, I'm I didn't. I didn't
really know what I expected, but it was kind of
like buy in time, like I don't know what else
(24:36):
to say. So he called her and he comes back
out and I'm thinking, oh, great, this ought to be good,
you know, expecting you know, more disappointment, and I don't
know what, and he said, she's on her way, Oh,
it's not insane. So she came and got me. She
(24:59):
came and got me. I stayed with them for a
period of time. We went to they got legal custody
of me, and then after some time, a few months
or so, the social worker that was involved with the
case had said to the family that if they wanted,
(25:24):
that's when they got legal custody. You know, that they
could get legal custody if they wanted. So her name
was Judy Dinsmore and his name was William Dinsmore. Bill
and Judy very well known in their area. They approached
me and said, would you like to make this, you know,
(25:47):
for forever, you know, would you like to be part
of our family? And I was like absolutely, like the
idea that I had a roof over my head, that
I wouldn't be more moving again and again, the fact
that I would have food, that I would have meals,
(26:07):
you know, I didn't have to go to a laundry
met they actually had a washroom dryer.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
In their house.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
I would have my own bedroom. What you know, They're
just it was so crazy, But of course I was
so very grateful and that they they thought we went
to court and all those things and they got custody
of me and I stayed with them for the next
four years, so all of my high school years was
(26:35):
in their care. And during those four years, you know,
I really believe that a lot of who I've been
able to become and the resilience that was within me
was nurtured by them, because had I not been given
a different message in those four years before I went
off to college, I don't I don't know where I
(26:57):
would be. I mean, they didn't tell me I was garbage.
They didn't tell me that they didn't want me, or
that I was worthless or anything. They told me the
exact opposite and said, You're going to be somebody. You know,
we put this work into you because you were worth it,
and you were going to go out and become somebody.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
And you're not just a teacher. You're a special education teacher. Yes,
you yourself gravitate to those kids that other people find difficult.
Other people don't want to necessarily put the time in.
It's a lot of work, but it's a lot of
love and you get it back well.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
And I feel like I was destined. I mean, again,
a lot of who I am is because of the
teachers who took an interest in me along the way,
and I absolutely had to pay that forward. I'm honored
to pay that forward and love on my students the
way I was loved.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
One.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
You reached out to me years ago and said, hey,
you know, I know about the Cold Case Institute. You
think you could help me, And you told me the story,
just like you've done tonight, and I said, well, let
me look into it.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
I'm not sure what I can do.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
You and I both were super upfront and honest with
each other. We both believed we knew who did it,
but I wasn't sure what I could do because we
didn't have a body, there was a lot of evidence,
we didn't have a lot of things we didn't know.
So I thought, well, let me think about it. And
something came to me, because every time I talk to you,
(28:37):
you would say things like I think I can't really
remember this, maybe that I don't know. You would say
those types of things to me, So I thought, you
know what, I'm just gonna throw this at her and
let's see what she says. And I said, hey, you know, Alison,
I've got a crazy thought and I just want to
see if you're open to it, and you were like, what, girl,
(28:59):
what do you got? I'm up for anything, I said, well,
I think hypnosis might help you, maybe some of your stuff.
You have suppressed it and hidden it to save yourself.
And honey, you were like, I'm gonna jump on a plane.
I'm coming to Atlanta. Let's do this thing. But this
is where it gets another hand of God moment. I
(29:21):
didn't know a hypnotist, but I thought, well, nothing ventured, right,
So I call this woman, Monica Miller.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
I had never met her. She had no idea who
I was, no idea who Allison was.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
And I thought, if I can keep talking, maybe I
can convince her. Well, I didn't have to keep talking.
She was lovely and she was like, if there's somebody
that needs my help, I'm going to help them. Can
you get her to Atlanta? I said, girl, she's on
a plane, she's already coming. And you know what struck
(30:01):
me about Monica was this woman went to the University
of Florida. She worked in finance, but then she decided,
you know what, I need to help people. I need
to help people on a different level. And she changed
the course of her career. And so not only did
(30:22):
I reach out to her and get a yes, which
was crazy. She didn't charge anybody, she didn't want any money,
she didn't even want no credit. And I thought, this
is an incredible person and this is who Alison needs.
So I pick her up from the airport. We go
(30:42):
straight to Monica's office. Y'all. The first thing this woman does.
If any of y'all have ever had like a really good,
expensive professional massage, you know how you walk in and
the lighting is perfect, and they've got some you know, fabuls,
the candles going in some fantastic sin you know what
(31:03):
I'm talking about, Like you know you're in the right place.
That's how her room felt. But she not only invited
Alison in, she invited me so I could see it,
so I could understand. This is for comfort. She is
safe here, this is a place she can relax. And
if she's got any memories, honey, they're gonna come about.
(31:25):
So Alison and I thought it would be great tonight
if y'all could straight here from Monica Miller. So it
is a absolute honor for me to welcome Monica Miller
to Zone seven.
Speaker 5 (31:41):
Thank you, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Are you kidding?
Speaker 1 (31:44):
I mean, Monica I witnessed something that to this day
when I tell the story, knocks people out because, y'all,
here's another cool thing about Monica. I was in the
waiting room and I thought, well, I say, waiting room, lobby,
whatever it was. I felt like, this person that I
care about is gone in there for some type of
procedure and I'm waiting to see whether or not it's
(32:04):
going to work. Well, you know, I don't know if
it's going to be forty minutes or two hours or
five hours. I have no idea. Well, Monica was so fantastic.
She texted me the whole time. And Monica, I got
to tell you, I thought that was super thoughtful of
you too, not to leave me hanging and not like, well,
I don't know if she's remembering something horrible and needs
(32:28):
some type of comfort. Is she going to hold her
hand or is it not working and she's going to
be super disappointed? Like I needed some type of heads up.
But you were just fantastic.
Speaker 5 (32:39):
Oh well, I'm glad that was helpful. You know, the
sessions the way I work with people can be so deep.
It's really hard to put a clock on it or
a timer. So if there's a family member or you know,
sometimes it's a it's a younger person or a concerned relative.
I'll say, Okay, it's going to be like around three hours.
(33:00):
But then if it moves, if the needle moves longer
or shorter, I try to let everyone know because it
is really a waiting game where you're like, are they okay?
Did she kidnap them?
Speaker 4 (33:09):
Right?
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Right?
Speaker 5 (33:11):
Because remember it, Alison, it went. It went closer to
almost four hours with it.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
It did?
Speaker 1 (33:15):
It Sure did. That's what I was going to say.
And it was just a comfort to me, you know.
And here's the way I've described this, and Monica you
jump in and correct me, but this is the way
I kind of saw it. All of us have memories,
and you may have a memory from fourth grade or
twelfth grade. You'll never remember it, but then a song
(33:37):
will come on, or you'll smell something, or you'll see
something and you're like, oh, I remember that, Like it
takes you right back. So everybody sub level has got
memories that if the right thing comes about, you're going
to remember it immediately. Is that accurate?
Speaker 5 (33:55):
It's a what a perfect description of how hypnosis can work,
because you just you get into that timeline or that space,
or even the feeling. You know, it can be a feeling.
Oftentimes people are coming to me for something different, like
an emotional struggle. You trace the feeling and the body
back to what started it. And that's what you know
(34:16):
we were doing that day with Alison. It's like, let's
trace you back to this moment in time and then
open that up and expand it.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
But trauma, I mean, whether it's sexual assault, child abuse,
your mother being murdered, whatever it is, you're going to
have memories that maybe you don't even allow yourself. I'm
not going there. I'm not going to think about it.
If I start to think about it, I'm gonna do
something different. I'm gonna sing a song. I'mingll go for
(34:46):
a jog, I'm gonna pat a dog. I'm gonna do
something so I don't have to remember it. But it
is there, and you got her in a quiet, beautiful
space with perfect just lights sounds. I mean, I thought
it was if it was ever gonna work, it was
gonna work with you.
Speaker 3 (35:05):
That's all I can tell you.
Speaker 5 (35:08):
I'm glad. I'm glad. I'm glad you both had that
trust in me. You know, it's for me if i'm
you know, I get it from my grandfather. I don't
say yes to something if I'm not going to do
it to the absolute best of my ability. I don't.
I don't, you know, go halfway into things. So if
I say I'm going to help, I'm going to do
(35:28):
everything I can that's within my abilities to help.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Well, you did, and I think that you know, you've
got other expertise, like with yoga and whatnot. And I
think when people are super in tune to mind, body
and spirit, it can show. And I think again, I
don't know how to really say what this experience was
(35:54):
for me, other than to say I knew instantly watching
the two with y'all that it was going to work.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
I knew it.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
So Alison, why don't you tell everybody what happened, what
came from it?
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Well, I want to say, I you know, I was
super nervous to do this, but with this case, I
was willing to do anything. Just the way you described
it is exactly how I felt at that point. I
had been toying with that idea. Several people had had
mentioned maybe you should do hypnotism, but I was too afraid.
(36:29):
I was too afraid to take that step because I
didn't know what was locked in that head, and I
felt like I was five, almost six. I was their ears.
The chances of me seeing or hearing something are pretty high,
and I wasn't sure if I really did or not.
Going there, I was super anxious and nervous because I
(36:53):
what was about to take place. But as soon as
I got into her room, it was exactly the way
you described it.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
It was.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
It was calm and peaceful and quiet. It was serene,
you know, the lighting was perfect. It just made you
feel like you're walking into a big hug.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Absolutely absolutely, I.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Didn't feel nervous anymore walking into that office. I you know,
I sat down, you know, and got comfortable, and we
got right at it. I don't think right at very long.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
It wasn't long for my phone ding I had a
text from her and Monica. I got to tell you.
I remember even making a joke after you were so
gracious to let me come in and got to see
everything and laid out how it was going to operate.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
I remember joking with you, I don't want to leave.
I want to stay in this room and just relax.
Speaker 5 (37:43):
You're next to them.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
Because it was just that welcoming and that calming.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
It was.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
It was unbelievable. But Monica, why don't you walk through
a little bit of how you work? Like just like
we know because we were there, but like, what did
your process?
Speaker 5 (38:01):
Well? So for this particular case, I knew we were
going back to a time and date. So you know,
oftentimes I'm working with someone and say it's you know,
for you know, confidence or anxiety or panic stuff, which
is pretty common on my schedule, we're going with a feeling.
Well with Allison, we had to go to a time
and day, so it was really taking a direct timeline
(38:23):
back to that night. And a funny thing that happened
when you both arrived is y'all surprised me. I had
no idea that Allison was a CODA, a child of
deaf adults. So I then instantly, right there in the lobby,
I looked at you, Cheryl, and I was like, uh, information,
(38:43):
that would have been good to know because and I
joked with you and I'm like, I'm like, you're lucky
you showed up to me because because I was like,
we are going to have to handle this differently because
I knew instantly that Alison telling me, you know, was
about five years old. I'm like, you became their ears
and their translator. And I knew that would be how
(39:05):
her life was lived up into that point. And I
also knew that whatever we went back and found that
it wouldn't be a kid listening through the wall to
hear words like if you don't shut up, I'm gonna
but you know, she's not gonna have that. So I
knew that the information that we would get would come
(39:25):
differently because she saw the world and hurt it differently
than her parents.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Oh that's a great point. That's a great point.
Speaker 5 (39:37):
Yeah, So that really had to be taken into consideration,
and and I knew Alison was nervous. So part of
my process is, you know, really know the whole story
as much as I can for the event or the
feeling or the issue we're trying to resolve, know everything
around it and all the key players. So in this
(39:58):
the key players is Alison, her brother, her mom, her dad,
because this is a night of and on top of that,
I know that generally if someone hasn't done hypnosis before,
they're going to be anxious or nervous, and excitement also
can feel the same as anxiety or nervousness, so there
could be a part that they're excited about, but also
(40:20):
because it's unknown, it comes off as anxiety or nervousness.
Is to say to someone a line I use often
and I used it with Alison. I'm like, the worst
thing you've ever been through in your whole entire life
up until this moment, right here and right now, you've
been through it, and here you are. You've made it.
So we know there's nowhere to go but up, and
(40:42):
there's nothing to do but find out more information than
perhaps you're aware that you know. And the mind is
like a black box. It'll lock things in and if
it's part of a traumatic event, it might push that
away because it's to protect you. And so our deal
that day was to let's do everything to find a
place of safety and comfort, of interest and curiosity to
(41:06):
pull out data that might have been sort of stuffed
away in the subconscious mind. Let's see if we can
work together to pick this lock. And so that's often
how I work with that kind of stuff in mind.
And Alison, it did a really cool thing. She brought
the book in. Do you remember that, Alison, you brought
the book in my book. Yeah, you brought it in.
You showed it to me.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
Oh I forgot that.
Speaker 5 (41:28):
Yeah, it's a really important part because you went to
put it away. I said no, no, no, no, don't
put it away. I sat it on the console. I
left it sitting upright and open. And your book was
staring at us the whole time.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Oh my gosh. And the cover of that book is
my mother's face and it looks like she's looking at you.
Speaker 5 (41:47):
Yes, And the cover of that book told more of
the story that you had somehow within you known because
it's what led you to pick that picture. And we
talked about that in the end, which was really cool.
But we let yeah, we had the book standing up
there as a part of the process, like let her
in on this, let her be here. I mean, she's
(42:08):
you got the note in your pocket.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
That's right, amen, Amen, she's how you.
Speaker 5 (42:13):
Got that note in your pocket. You know, when people
leave us, there's the you know, energy can't be created
or destroyed. They just go into a different form, often
not the like spooky ugy ghost thing, but they go
into a different form. And in her own way, she's
still around, and you know, she placed something into the
heart and the mind of your teacher that day, and
(42:35):
that's how on that day you got the note. And
so things like that are the reason why I'm like,
let her like, let her be a part of this,
let her hang out, let's see what happens.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
You want to know something crazy, Well, of course I do.
I have the book sitting right here next to me
in case they have to reference it. And she's looking
at me right now while we're having yeah, oh my gosh, yeah, yeah,
it happens.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
It happens absolutely, and you know, it's one of those things.
And Monica, I'm sure you know this, but Alison, I
don't know if you do. But the FBI actually trains
their folks if they're stuck on a case or they
can't get past some type of point in an investigation,
to literally sit still in a quiet place. They even
(43:22):
encourage people go sit in your closet like no windows,
no distractions, get steal and get quiet and you may
have an epiphany. So on every level, this works. I mean,
it just does if you allow it to work and
you're with somebody that can help you, like Monica did.
(43:45):
Because again, it wasn't long before I got that first
text message, and then it wasn't long before my phone
was ding ding ding, So things were happening and she
was keeping me updated. But do you want to tell.
Speaker 3 (43:59):
Some folks about the snow on the car?
Speaker 2 (44:03):
I want to say I was cut a little skeptical
going into this too, Like I totally wanted it to
work and was willing to do the work and whatever
needed to be done, but I wasn't sure what I
thought or believed about hypnosis, Like I don't know, you know,
kind of sounds hokey, but hopefully it works. So I
(44:23):
was open to it, but wasn't convinced that I would
have results. So it was a very pleasant surprise. I
would say that I felt like I was just relaxing,
you know, I was just I think you even said that, Monica.
You were like just relax, you know, and leat and whatever,
(44:49):
and to kind of fast forward to what you were
just mentioning the snow. I often felt felt like or
I often had memories of random things like we all do,
and I wasn't really sure where it fit in my life,
you know, in the timeline, I didn't know where things fit.
(45:12):
And I guess, like when I have talked about this
process and this experience. I have said that it's not like,
oh my gosh, this you know, thing came out of
nowhere and I remembered something, And maybe it is for
other people, It just that wasn't it for me. I
felt like you walked me step by step by step,
(45:35):
you know, holding my hand all the way through it
and said then what happened? Then what happened? So I
felt like the memories that I had were put in
time order, and when I was done, I was like,
oh my gosh, I didn't realize that's where that memory fit.
And when we were going through the process, I had
(45:59):
remembered like my mother had this cool, you know, blue
Mustang and it was like a sports car and in
the winner, she didn't really drive it that much for
obvious reasons, and I remembered there was snow on the
back of the the back of her car, and I
just didn't realize that it was that night that that
(46:23):
memory came through. And the only way I was able
to like time order that was because you took me
step by step, and you know, I remember saying, you know,
like he brought us down the stairs. It was you know,
he was holding Aaron, you know, in his arms, holding
my hand, taking us down the stairs, and that I
looked at the at her car before we got into
(46:46):
his car, his Bronco, and I noticed that there was
snow off the back of the car, like the trunk,
so to speak. And I I remembered that because it
was snowing like crazy, and I could tell how much
snow had fallen because there was like a ledge, like
(47:08):
when you wipe off a ton of snow. There's like,
you know, a ledge of snow, so you could see
how much has fallen. And I didn't realize that that
memory I had had before was that night. So in
that moment, you know, it's snowing like crazy, He's putting
us in the car, and I look over and notice
(47:29):
that the trunk of her car, snow had been wiped
off of it. Huge, huge, too.
Speaker 5 (47:37):
Huge, right, And you know, by going through a timeline
like that, the really cool thing is is you're sort
of looking around and in that moment, in the truth
of that moment, yes, you're only five years old, but
once again mom and Dad had a huge fight and
it was big and it was loud for you, and
(48:00):
you know, you were listening because at one point you said,
you know, Dad came down the hallway and was like,
made you get in bed. You know, he kind of
saw you peeking. And you might only be five, but
by the age of five, you're walking, you're talking, you're
looking around, you're seeing the world, you're hearing the world.
You're aware, and you were suspicious. You were like, what
(48:23):
has gone on here? You were suspicious, and you were
taking in because again, you are their ears. So you,
as a five year old, are having to listen to
big conversations and basically translate back to them and talk
to the other people. You're being forced to pay more
attention to the world around you in a kind of
(48:45):
adult way than most other kids would be. Yes, And
so I used that. I was like, heck, yeah, we're
going to use it because her observancy is going to
be more than just like, you know, a little kid
who's never seen trauma, who doesn't have to think about, like,
let me help mom and dad explain to the grocery
store guy what they need. It's very different. So I
(49:06):
was like, we're going to use this.
Speaker 3 (49:07):
It's a tool.
Speaker 5 (49:08):
And the cool thing about going through the night piece
by piece is you were right back in it as
that child. But also it's the grown up you. The
grown up Alison was there, I'm using prompts okay, and
then what happens next? What do you see? What do
you hear? And the grown up you is almost right
(49:30):
there holding hands with the little one and saying okay.
So you know, this is how.
Speaker 3 (49:37):
It can be.
Speaker 5 (49:38):
Even if it's you know, like Cheryl you had mentioned,
if it's you know, something trump traumatic or terrible, you're
almost once removed. I always say there's a big difference
about being like someone who's in a war or sitting
in the front row of a movie theater watching a
movie about war. You are once removed. And those things
(49:59):
go hand in hand, which is why I explained to
Alison straight a had them in it. You know, she
you know, put her by in my chair. I said,
the worst thing that's ever happened to you know, the
whole entire life has already happened, and you've made it through.
So now let's see what we can get from it
if taken.
Speaker 1 (50:11):
Us well, when you sit in me that text as
an investigator, I'm like, he transported her in her own car,
So that tells me he took his car to take
the children to the babysitter, but then used her car
(50:32):
to dispose of her.
Speaker 5 (50:34):
Or that's where he put It's where he put her temporarily,
don't you know.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
Either way, But in my mind that's where I went immediately,
and I'm like, of course he did. That's why Febe goes, oh,
well she left. I saw her driving down Main Street
at whatever time. So you know, I just appreciate everything
that you did, Monica, because you know, I knew that
he was my number one. I know that he was
(50:58):
Allison's number one, us big. But her memories and then
the next text that I got that was pretty chilling
was that she knew there were all these loud sounds.
There were loud sounds and they suddenly stopped, so she knew.
She even knew in the timeline when her mom was
(51:19):
killed in that house, she knew.
Speaker 5 (51:23):
And like I said, because she was a highly observant
child because of necessity, when she and her brother were
being marched out of that house by their dad in
the middle of the night, she was looking around. And Alison,
when you looked around the house and you observed everything,
(51:44):
what observance of absolute mayhem? Did you see nothing? You
were like, it looks everything's fine. You didn't see you
didn't see a mess, you didn't see blood, you didn't
see things talcked. It seemed eerily quiet and perfect, and
(52:08):
that can tell a story of how he committed this act.
Speaker 6 (52:15):
You, rookie detectives, if you were working with somebody who
is a coda, as Monica says, child of deaf adults,
be sure to tell everybody on your team, because I
don't think that would have dawned on me to tell you.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
I guess I thought it would come out if necessary.
But I just learned something good tonight, So I appreciate
you again. Monica, still training and Alison, I'll tell you, you know,
I do think you were brave. Fear did not stop you.
You and I, you know, both joked that neither one
of us had ever used hypnosis. I've had plenty of
(52:57):
victims that had suppressed memories and with counselors, and I
learned all about disassociation and whatnot. But I had never
used hypnosis, and I tried to use it myself once
in nineteen seventy four, but I failed. I got my
dad's pocket watch and went back and forth in front
(53:18):
of him so that he would buy me a mini bike.
Speaker 3 (53:21):
But it sounds.
Speaker 5 (53:25):
It was a worthy effort.
Speaker 1 (53:26):
He never was a worthy effort. But he was not
like Alison. He was not open to it, so he
wouldn't get with the program. But again, Monica, you know,
your generosity and your expertise is so appreciated. I mean,
I will be forever grateful for what you did for
(53:48):
Alison in this case. And Alison, your bravery, your willingness
to get on a plane and trust somebody you had
never dealt with. Really, you didn't know me much better
than you new Monica. And I just know that your
mama is so impressed and just probably a little knocked
(54:08):
out by everything that you have accomplished. But before we
in this, Alison, tell everybody about the phone call.
Speaker 2 (54:19):
I have worked and worked and worked. I've networked. I've
done podcasts and interviews and everything I can think of.
I've gone to conferences and crime different things, wrote a book,
you know, everything I could think of. And I was always,
you know, just battling with what do I do next?
(54:42):
And here I am like, well, you know, I'm packing
for an Irish dance competition that I was taking my
daughter to the next day in Milwaukee, and my phone
rings and it is the State Police. And I I thought,
what in the world at eight thirty at night, the
(55:03):
night before a holiday. No less, you know, it's the
night before Thanksgiving. My phone rings and it says state
Police on it, and I thought, well, that's weird. So
I answer it and it's the investigator who was in
Pennsylvania working my mother's case. And you know, I say hello,
(55:24):
and I I feel like the right descriptor is the
Charlie Brown teacher, because you know, he says this is
this is trueer gible and and I'm thinking, okay, And
he said, we interviewed Bud today, and I said, oh, okay.
(55:45):
And I'm thinking he's going to tell me something obviously,
or he wouldn't be calling me the night before that's
useful or beneficial, or it's got to be good news,
because why would you call me now? But never did
I imagine the words that came out of him his mouth.
I don't think in my entire life I have actually
(56:05):
fathomed what those words would sound like. And he said
to me, brace yourself, Alison. We interviewed Bud today and
he confessed Mic drop, but I don't think I heard
that right what And you know, he couldn't get into
(56:30):
the details or specifics, but he said he wanted me
to know that he was at that moment that he
was calling me, he had been arrested, was in police custody,
and that night was being arraigned for homicide and aggravated assault.
(56:54):
Absolute miracle. Like people in my situation don't hear those words,
Like people don't hold on to that that crime for
forty four years and wake up one day and decide
to tell the truth. It's unheard of, correct, But.
Speaker 3 (57:12):
Just like everything else in this case, it's unheard of.
Speaker 1 (57:15):
So that to me was.
Speaker 3 (57:16):
A fitting ending.
Speaker 1 (57:18):
And I could not wait to reach out to Monica
because she deserved quickly before.
Speaker 3 (57:26):
Thanksgiving to know what happened too.
Speaker 1 (57:28):
And it was a great thing to be able to,
you know, communicate with both of y'all.
Speaker 3 (57:32):
And what a Thanksgiving, oh my god less indeed.
Speaker 5 (57:38):
And that explained to me, I was like Cheryl's reaching
out to me on Thanksgiving Day? What in the world?
And now now I know why I didn't know it
as the night before, My goodness, Wow, it was one.
Speaker 1 (57:51):
Of the best Thanksgiving, and you know, all of your
posts and the way people were supporting you, and and
you know, even all these years, Alison, the way you
have moved, the way you have operated, the way you
have stayed true has has been something to watch too.
So I just appreciate you both. I am great.
Speaker 2 (58:11):
That's all my mama in me.
Speaker 1 (58:13):
I hear you. I believe it one hundred percent. Lonnie
deserves the credit, there's no doubt. But I do want
both of you to know we will do another one.
We will have an update when we can and when
Alison can share everything after the court process. So just
just wait. There will be a part two.
Speaker 3 (58:31):
And I'm going to tell.
Speaker 1 (58:32):
You right now, y'all ain't gonna be ready for that,
so you won't believe it. We will go and we
will continue to celebrate Thanksgiving. But Monica Miller, thank you,
Alison Daker, thank you, and congratulations.
Speaker 7 (58:44):
Honey, thanks for having me, thank you so much. Congratulations, Alison,
thank you, and thank you for all of your hard
work and all of this.
Speaker 5 (58:56):
Oh you're You're welcome, and I'm you know, I'm interested
to see what other details come out, because we had
some we had some heavy guesses. But I guess maybe
we'll possibly.
Speaker 3 (59:08):
Know, y'all.
Speaker 4 (59:10):
I'm gonna end Zone seven the way that I always
do with a quote, allow yourself to see what you
don't allow yourself to see, Milton Ericson.
Speaker 1 (59:24):
I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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