November 6, 2024 • 31 mins
Amber Clemmons-Bean is Barbara Clemmons' granddaughter and family advocate, Amber has become a dedicated voice for justice in her grandmother’s unsolved murder case. She continues to work to seek answers, keeping the case alive and raising awareness.
In this episode of Zone 7, Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum, sits down with Amber Clemmons Bean, Barbara’s granddaughter to dissect the tragic events of July 23rd, 1957, in Hobbs, New Mexico, where Dorothy Gibson, Barbara Clemmons, and J.D. Cantrell were brutally murdered. Dorothy and Barbara, both 23 and divorced, were found dead after being shot, following a night out and a flat tire on Highway 180. J.D. Cantrell, a truck driver who stopped to help, was shot eight times. The motives appear unclear, with no signs of robbery or sexual assault, while revenge seems the likely cause. Sheryl and Amber discuss potential motives, challenges in the investigation, and the emotional toll on the victims’ families.
Show Notes:
- (0:00) Welcome back to Zone 7 with Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum
- (0:10) Sheryl introduces the triple homicide in Hobbs, New Mexico
- (1:25) The crime scene and initial investigation
- (2:20) Victim profiles and possible motives
- (3:20) Sheryl introduces guest, Amber Clemmons-Bean to Zone 7
- (4:15) Theories and speculations
- (7:45) Details of the night before the murders
- (10:00) Crime scene analysis and evidence
- (15:45) Challenges in the investigation
- (20:30) Amber's ongoing fight for justice
- (30:30) Conclusion and future steps
- (31:00) “Justice is what love sounds like when it speaks in public.”
- Thanks for listening to another episode! If you love the show and want to help grow the show, please head over to iTunes and leave a rating and review!
---
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook., Cold Case: Pathways to Justice. Sheryl is also the founder and director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, a collaboration between universities and colleges that brings researchers, practitioners, students and the criminal justice community together to advance techniques in solving cold cases and assist families and law enforcement with solvability factors for unsolved homicides, missing persons, and kidnapping cases.
Social Links:
- Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
- Twitter: @ColdCaseTips
- Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
- Instagram: @officialzone7podcast
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Case nine forty seven out of Hobbs, New Mexico. It
was July twenty third, nineteen fifty seven, a Tuesday, at
four am. Dorothy Gibson and Barbara Lemons were traveling together
from Carlsbad to Hobbs, New Mexico on Highway one point eighty.
They were in a nineteen fifty two Plymouth. They had
(00:33):
a flat tire. They pulled just off the roadway and
that is when JD. Cantraill, driving his work truck, pulled
his rig off the road, left it running with the
lights on, and it appears that JD was in the
process of changing the tires when he was shot and killed.
(00:55):
JD had been shot eight times with a small caliber weapon.
Two females were not at the scene when a Good
samaritan rolled up and found JD inside their car. Sheriff's
deputies found their purses and shoes and an id. The
scene also showed a powerful struggle. JD had left his
(01:20):
home about three ten am, and again his body was
found by four The two women were later found off
Highway two thirty eight. Both had been shot and it
appeared to be a twenty two weapon. An old field
worker found them right at the Buckeye cutoff. The two
(01:44):
female victims had been out the night before with a
male friend. They drove him home to Carlsbad and were
headed back to Hobbs when they had the flat tire.
The area where they were found is flat, hot, full
of tumbleweeds and cactus. The victims, Dorothy Gibson, was twenty three, divorced,
(02:08):
lived in a small house at two two five South Coleman.
Barbara Lemons also twenty three and divorced. We're going to
get back to Barbara in a second.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
J D.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Cantrell was married, a truck driver and a father. JD
was shot eight times. The first question that popped into
my head is what were the women doing during this
just barrage of gunfire. They had to be petrified. The
other questions is did JD know them in some way?
(02:42):
Was there somebody that had injured their tire before and
forced the flat tire. People are normally killed for three reasons, sex, money,
and revenge. What doesn't appear anybody was robbed, doesn't appear
anybody was sexually assaulted, so that leaves us with revenge.
(03:03):
The best place to start this case is with the victimology.
The more we know about the victims, the clearer a
motive may come. Once you have a motive, it'll lead
you quite possibly to who today we are so fortunate
(03:23):
to have with us, Amber Clemens Bean. She is Barbara
Ann's paternal granddaughter. So let me tell y'all a little
bit about Amber. She will tell you she's shy. She'll
tell you she don't want to talk in public, she
doesn't want to address big crowds. But we have the
opportunity to present this case at crime con and y'all,
(03:47):
she put all that fear aside, she put all the
trepidation away, and for her grandmother, she addressed a packed
room at Crime cons just brilliantly and flawlessly as I've
ever seen. It was straight from her heart. She didn't
have a note card in her hand, and it was
(04:09):
so well received because y'all know that audience. We're all
like minded people. We want to help, we want to
help solve a case. And Amber, I just think you
did such a remarkable job. I just want to tell
you again it was amazing to watch you. Now. Amber,
you know triple homicides are rare. In those cases, you
(04:31):
have to do three separate victimologies, and then you've got
to look at connections between those three people, if any,
and then you have to go back and look at
each person and try to determine was there anybody in
their background that would want to kill them? And then
were the other two collateral damage or we're all three
(04:55):
targets or just two targets. And that's what I see
here in this case. So case number nine forty seven,
Dorothy Gibson, Barbara Lemons, and JD. Cantrell. What are the
connections for your grandmother to either one of the other victims?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
She was friends with Dorothy. I don't know that she
ever had any connection with JD. Cantrell. We were always
told he was possibly just collateral damage. There's been different
there's different theories. One of them is that he was
already on the scene helping the women with car trouble
when the assailant came upon the scene. He died at
(05:37):
the scene and the women were transported. The other one
is that the assailant was already there and the truck
driver stopped to help the women with and he was
killed and then the women were taken elsewhere. We do
know that the women were taken elsewhere, and it sounds
like he was possibly going to let them go because
they were out of the car and they were shot
(05:59):
while they were running, or at least one of them
was shot while they were running.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
That's what it looks like to me. The one crime
scene photo that we're able to see, that's exactly what
it looks like, that they were running. I don't know
that he was ever going to quote let them go,
but he certainly was not going to shoot them in
his car, right.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
He let them out of the car.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Right. So the original scene, it's a nineteen fifty two
Plymouth and the tire is off the car, so one
would assume, you know, back then in nineteen fifty seven,
that a man did stop to help them. There was
nothing on the women's hands like grease or you know,
any type of It didn't look like they had been
(06:42):
changing a tire.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
No, it sounds like he probably was right.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
And it was so early in the morning, I mean
you're talking about four am essentially. So JD. Leaves his
house about three ten, goes and picks up the rig
at work and then is driving when his rig is
pulled off the side of the road. The engine idle
and the lights are on, so he clearly saw I
think the two women. And the reason is, I believe
(07:09):
if he saw a man changing a tire or he'd
kept driving right. So I think he saw the two women.
And I think the assailant came up a little after.
I believe now maybe he would have stopped to help
another man that time of morning, but I'm just saying
I think the chances are better than it was two women.
Your time frame in the very beginning is tight. You're
(07:32):
not talking about a lot of time. It went by
right now before that. If you're working backwards at a
crime scene, which is what we do, so we know
what happened at four am, and if you're looking backwards,
the two women were doing what The night.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Before, they had gone to a bar or a club
essentially to hear a singer, Lefty Frizoe perform, and they
had a friend with them that they had dropped off
after prior to this happening, and then they from my
understanding is after they dropped their friend off, they had
gone to a cafe for something to eat.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
They had a male friend that they had dropped off,
so they drove him all the way home and were
coming back and stopped to get something to eat. Now, right,
This is critical to me because a lot of times,
if you were to ask any waiter or waitress about
a particular shift, they're probably not going to remember that.
(08:28):
Many people correct, but this waitress did. She did, and
what did she remember.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
She remembered there was a guy there who was watching
the women. He ordered, I believe, a salad, but he
didn't finish it, and when they left, he followed them out.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
This waitress not only remembered what the man ordered, she
remembered what he was wearing. He gave her that kind
of feeling that the way he's watching those women is
just not right.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yeah, she felt that it was off. It kind of
gave her an uneasy feeling.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
So they had been out, they had been having a
great time with a male friend, so they probably felt
safe there. But once they dropped him off, they went
to the diner alone and then carried on their trip
headed back to their residence. Something happened between the diner
and when the tire went flat, no doubt about it.
(09:27):
And it looks like JD. Cantrell literally was just a
good Samaritan.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Yes, what.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Was found at the crime scene of the women.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Everything was in the car. There was extra pairs of shoes,
their purses, everything was intact. They don't believe it was
robbery because nothing was stolen. Everything was in the car.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Okay, so pursa's shoes, ID wallet's keys, everything's in the
Plymouth and the original crime scene O. Correct. JD is
shot eight times.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
I believe it was eight. Yes, they said there was
some type of a struggle, but yes, he was shot
about eight times.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Now, it don't take eight times to kill somebody, and
it doesn't take eight separate shots to stop a threat.
So if this person brandished a weapon and a struggle ensued,
he didn't have to shoot him eight times. So that's
a large number that we need to file away and
(10:32):
just say, hey, that's kind of excessive.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
We'll just say that.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Then the women are taken from that scene and driven
out Highway two thirty eight. Now they're about thirty minutes
from the original crime scene.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Yes, Now, I just want everybody to think, two women
that have just witnessed a murder are now put into
a vehicle by the assailant for thirty minutes. That had
to be chaotic at best. They had to be screaming, crying,
worried about what was happening. So for thirty minutes, that
(11:11):
to me is an incredible amount of time that one
person is controlling two people and then looking for a
secondary location to either let them go or to murder them.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
And if you could see where they were taking there
was a lot of talk that they thought that it
was somebody that lived in the air or sorry that somebody,
that it was somebody the essay, that was somebody that
was passing through the area. If you could see, I've
been there, if you could see in person where this is.
It's very far off a road out in the middle
of nowhere, there's and it's not something you would know
(11:47):
was there if you didn't live in the area, right,
So it just makes me think that it was someone
that knew the area well, lived there maybe or had
a family there, or had lived there at one point,
just because of where it was.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Well, I can tell you this, they absolutely knew that
area because he managed to do this in the dark. Yes,
so he found this location without visibility. He knew it,
no doubt in my mind. So when the women are found,
they are twenty yards apart. I believe one was shot
almost immediately, and I believe the second one was running.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Yes, they think.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
I believe.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
I was always told it was Barbara Ann that was running,
but I'm not one hundred percent sure. They were both
found fully clothed. Yes, about twenty yards apart from each other.
There's no sign. They don't think there was sexual assault
just because they were they were fully clothed and nothing
was missing. I don't really know what they think that
the motive was. I've never really been told that other
(12:49):
than they don't think it was robbery.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Yeah, I would agree with that because nothing was taken,
not the car, not money, not jewelry, not purses, nothing,
nothing of value was taken off JD.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Right, everything was there. His wallet was left there. We
don't know what the motive was. I've never really been
told like, this is what we think the motive is.
They just that they don't think it was robbery and
they don't think it was like a sexual assault because
there wasn't any.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
And if you'd think about JD being shot eight to
ten times and there were five shotgun shells found at
the scene, this is somebody that was prepared to murder
three people, and did.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
I don't know. I guess said if it was premeditated
or how he picked his victims, if it was random.
I don't know that they ever determined if it was
someone that knew them or if it was random.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Now the women, they both had separate homes, but they
did try to rent an apartment together in another town. Yes,
and they wanted to get jobs at JC Penny.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Correct, they had applied there.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Does anything there stand out for you, like why did
they go to another town and why JC Penny? Like
were they trying to literally start new lives?
Speaker 2 (14:10):
I think maybe after the divorce, they were just trying
to start fresh somewhere. You know, Hobbs is a small area,
it's not real big, but that's kind of my theory
is maybe they were just trying to get a fresh
start and raise their kids. And well I don't think
Dorothy didn't have children, but my grandma did. Barbaran did.
So I think she was just trying to raise her
children and start fresh in a new area.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
I mean they were both young, they were only twenty
three correct, Yes, And maybe if they thought, you know,
if we get an apartment together, you know, Dorothy could
have helped Barbara Ann with the children. Maybe they could
have gotten separate shifts so somebody was always home. I mean,
it might have been a great setup where they could
have helped each other. You know, Barbara would be paying
(14:54):
half the bills, so Dorothy would be in better shape financially. Right,
you know, there's there's worse ideas, you know, but then
you have to look at these two women are friends.
But could one of the women have been a target?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yeah, we always told that one of the women was,
that one of them was a target. We just didn't
know why or which one was the target, and that
the other the truck driver and the other women were
just collateral damage. They happened to be there, wrong place,
wrong time, and.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Both ex husbands were looked at.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Yes, everybody was looked at at the time.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Because Dorothy was shot in the ear, well that seems
like a kill shot, whereas Barbara ann was hit in
the arm and some other places. So you might on
paper think Dorothy might be a target. And law enforcement
has told you what about this case and looking into
this case.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Many years back, they did tell me they had the
name of a suspect, but they couldn't tell me who
the suspect was. The person is deceased, and I said, well,
why can't you tell me? And they said, because the
person is protected. And I said, okay, but what about her?
What about the three victims and their protection? When do
they get that because they were killed and we've been
(16:18):
fighting all this time for answers, and I had people
write letters and telling him that, you know, once the
person is deceased, it's okay to tell her the name,
and they still wouldn't do it. They I found out
that the police were the sheriff and the captain were
running against each other for the office. So I thought, oh,
(16:39):
maybe that's why I'm not getting answers, because the captain
wanted to thought about telling me, but then the sheriff said, no,
I do know that. At the time, the captain told somebody, well,
it doesn't matter because everybody's dead, and I thought, well, no,
not everybody's dead. We're all still here fighting. We're still
(16:59):
here fighting for answers, you know, sixty eight years later.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Not everybody's dead, that's right.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
And now there.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
I know.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
At the time when the murder happened, they were bringing
back a suspect from Texas to question him, and a
new sheriff was elected, and that sheriff fired all the deputies,
so that deputy that was bringing that suspect back from
Texas how to let him go. So he was never
questioned when.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Some people say, well, it's been so long and you know,
nobody's living anymore that went through it, But that's not
true because you went through it generationally, because you lived
with your dad having nightmares and not being able to function,
and not trust in people and not wanting to go
off by self somewhere. I mean, this wasn't something that
(17:49):
happened when he was three and he wasn't aware of
it by the age of seven. He knew it his
whole life. He lived it his whole life, and therefore
so do you you in a very real way.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
He lived his whole life. And I think essentially that's
maybe why part of the reason they separated him and
his sister is the thought process was if they're separate,
nobody can find them. But he lived his life afraid
that they were going to find out he was her
(18:22):
child and he was going to become after they were
going to come for him next. And I've talked to
the daughters of the man that was married to Dorothy
they're not her daughters, but he had children later and
he was very much that way too, like very protective,
very had to know where they were all the time.
(18:44):
You need to be home, I need to know where
you are. And I'm sure that's an after effect of
his wife being murdered.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Of course, and especially in a small town, because everybody's
got to be looking at everybody, anybody that had an
affair with one of the women, anybody that dated the
women before or after their divorces. You know, everybody is suspect, right.
(19:12):
You know, did somebody that she didn't marry become a stalker?
You know, did the ex husband have somebody that you know,
thought they were going to get back at her? Like
there's you never know, Like there's all kinds of stories
that are going to circulate, There's all kinds of rumors
that are going to happen, but the bottom line is
you don't know. Because the other twist is the way JD.
(19:35):
Cantrell was treated. Was he a target? He was certainly
shot more times than the women combined.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Right, And there was a struggle with him, and.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
There was a struggle, So it wasn't like somebody just
came up and shot him from a distance.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah, they were. It was up close close range.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
So again with triple homicides, and you're looking at victimology,
you're going to look at the age of all the folks.
You're going to look at their marital status, You're going
to look at where they worked, what they had been
doing the months leading up to the murder, you know,
And this is where the people in the community and
(20:16):
family and co workers can be so helpful. What do
we know? And that's how we found out about J. C. Penny.
And then they were able to track down the actual
applications that they filled out that Dorothy and Barbara, you know,
they put addresses down, they put why they were looking
for this employment, their past employment, and I think that
(20:38):
is great information for law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Definitely.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yeah, you know, you have not stopped in your investigation.
You have not been satisfied with the information that you've
ascertained so far, and you recently were able to see
some things in the case file that you had never
been shown.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Before right when I went to New Mexico.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yes, I mean, I think that's one of those things
that here's the bottom line for any young detective listening
to this show. You can take a complete murder box
that you have in your office and you can look
at every single piece of evidence in it. That does
(21:21):
not mean you understand it. So if there is a
birthday card, if there is a receipt, if there is
a photograph, ask the family, ask friends. They may can
add to what that means or signifies that you will
never know. So when Amber is able to look through
(21:44):
that box and she has all the stories that she's
been told for sixty years, some of those things may
leap out at her. Whereas law enforcement might say, oh,
that's just a Valentine's Day card, it's meaningless. It's not meaningless.
A telegram is not meaningless. A receipt for a pair
(22:04):
of shoes is not meaningless. So again I think what
you're doing and going back and sitting with the detective
and looking through the murder box, your cell is so
important in everybody understanding who Barbara Lemons was.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
It was just within the last two years that I
was able to go there and see the items they
invited me there. I had actually written a letter to
the newspaper and the police department requesting that they reopened
the case because they wouldn't tell me names, They wouldn't
tell me suspects, They wouldn't tell me anything. So I said, well,
then I can only assume that it's not solved and
I want it reopened. So they reopened it and they
(22:50):
said I could come there. I went on a road
trip to New Mexico and was able to meet with
them and view everything they had, which was a lot
go through. There is, I think, stuff that's missing that
they can't find, like evidence, but I don't know that
she'll trying to find it. They had a lot of
stuff that they said probably could have given back to
(23:12):
been given back a long time, like they still had
the truck driver's wallet. Just a lot of things that
probably could have been given back to the families a
long time ago. Mostly that, But there's just a lot
of back and forth and not giving us answers, and
(23:33):
just sixty eight years of continuing to fight. Now it's
my turn. I've fought for a long time. I actually
found out when I was in elementary school that she
had been murdered. I didn't know until I was in
elementary school. We were watching, oddly enough, we were watching
(23:53):
unsolved mysteries, and my mom said that we should call
and see if they would feature the show. But you know,
we were in elementary school that my mom says we
didn't show much interest back then, and I don't think it.
We just we were kids. But that's yeah, it was
probably like I mean, maybe elementary school, so maybe fifth grade,
(24:15):
fourth grade when they found out.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Well, well, that's why I said sixty years for you,
because I figured you were about eight or so, even
though I knew it had been sixty eight years, but
still for sixty years. This is something that you have
carried with you in some form or fashion. I had
a chance to speak with the lead detective now on
(24:40):
the case, and you know, he was great to talk
to me and was very open about things. You know,
but like I told you, after I spoke to him,
you know, he's not going to share everything, and he's
not going to name a name. Even if I gave
him a suspect name, he wasn't going to say yes
or no to it. If you're going to keep information
(25:03):
close to the vest, then there needs to be action
taken by you that it is clear to the family
that this is still trying to be solved. If you're
just keeping it close to the vest, then you don't
want to talk about it because you're afraid a family
of a suspect is going to get upset. That's not
(25:24):
the right call.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
And I think that was always their thought process, even
back when I was dealing with the previous captain, was well,
we don't want someone to come after us. We're going
to name this person, and then if it gets out
there and they find out, we don't want to be
pursuant to a lawsuit. And that's how they feel now.
As they were like, well, we have to try to
(25:49):
they don't because they told me they had the name
of somebody, and they told me that there would be
a press conference that I would be invited to when
they named the person, but they didn't want the name
released because they were trying to pin down family and
notify them first. But I just I left there thinking
(26:13):
that I wasn't getting the complete truth from them.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
You know, when I spoke with the lead detective, we
offered help with experts or private labs, anything he might need.
I am completely convinced that the assailant to get those
two women in the car had to grab at least
one or both of them and shove them. So you know,
(26:36):
you never know. I mean, stranger things have happened, and
they've been able to get DNA off more unusual items
than that from a cold case. It'd be worth a
shot to me. But you know, I think back about
our time at crime Con this past year, and remember,
I gotta tell you. Leading up to crime Con, you
(26:59):
were like, I don't know, I'm not a public speaker.
I'm not sure I'm going to talk. I mean, I'm
gonna be there and I want to support, you know,
my grandmother, but I just don't count on me for
getting on stage. No problem, it's all gonna be good.
It's gonna be great, honey. When you got there, you
were so fantastic. And here's what I think resonated for
(27:23):
me more than anything. You went out there and there
was a sea of people. That room was packed amber
wall to wall, people that you don't know, spotlight on you,
and you took that microphone and spoke so sweetly about
your daddy, about your grandmama, who you never even got
(27:47):
a chance to meet. How it changed your life, the
things your daddy suffered through, and that audience connected with
you so profoundly that you received I don't know six
or seven minutes standing ovation. I mean it, and I
(28:10):
was like, not bad with somebody that wasn't gonna talk.
But you know, I also think as a parent, you know,
your daddy's got to be so proud of you for
what you've done. I mean, you overcame some fear, you
traveled a long distance, you're still traveling, You're still trying
to get the word out, you're building a website, and
(28:34):
I just admire what you're doing again for a grandmother
you never had a chance to meet.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Thank you. It's definitely been along road and it's definitely
not over. We will keep the word out there. It's
come down to now me and my cousins just trying
to fight. My mom's a good supporter.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Oh yeah, she was right with you, honey.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
She keeps me on it. The days of the times
I get frustrated and I think, gosh, I'm never going
to get answers, and why am I doing this? She says, Nope,
We're going to continue to fight and we're going to
keep going. I want people to know that these lives mattered.
My grandmother was a mom, and a sister and a
daughter and a grandmother that never got to know her grandchildren.
(29:24):
There's seven of us that she never got to know.
She has great grandchildren. The truck driver he never got
to see his kids grow up. He has grandchildren he
never got to know. And they're more than just faces.
They're more than just victims. They were people that meant
a lot to a lot of people, and past generation
to pass on not knowing what happened. But we will
(29:47):
continue to fight, and we will continue to try to
get answers, enclosures for our families, and if it takes
every last breath I got, I'm going to continue to
fight for her and continue to try to get answers
from somebody, because somebody knows something. You don't just kill
three people in cold blood and disappear and not say something,
(30:09):
not talk to somebody. So there's answers somewhere, we just
have to look under the right rocks to find them.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
That was perfectly stated. And I'll tell you you know,
I don't believe in coincidences in my job. I just don't.
And there are so many things here that it just
looks like, oh, that's just a coincidence that JD showed up.
It's a coincidence they dropped a friend off it's a coincidence.
The waitress noticed somebody. I just don't I don't buy it.
(30:40):
And you and I are very fortunate on this case.
Because y'all there's another episode coming and that's going to
be with Paul Holes, the investigator that y'all all know
and love. Amber's met him. Now, Amber's a fan. He
is awesome, and he's agreed to help out. And he's
one of those folks too that can help me reach
out to law enforcement and have a conversation to say, look,
(31:02):
we're just here to help. And Paul has had some
tremendous luck, as you all know, with the Golden State Killer,
but that ain't the only case he's cracked. So he
has joined us in this investigation and so we will
see what we are able to do. I'm going to
end Zone seven the way that I always do with
a quote. Justice is what love sounds like when it
(31:27):
speaks in public. Michael Eric Dyson. I'm a Cheryl McCollum,
and this is Zone seven.
Case nine forty seven out of Hobbs, New Mexico. It
was July twenty third, nineteen fifty seven, a Tuesday, at
four am. Dorothy Gibson and Barbara Lemons were traveling together
from Carlsbad to Hobbs, New Mexico on Highway one point eighty.
They were in a nineteen fifty two Plymouth. They had
(00:33):
a flat tire. They pulled just off the roadway and
that is when JD. Cantraill, driving his work truck, pulled
his rig off the road, left it running with the
lights on, and it appears that JD was in the
process of changing the tires when he was shot and killed.
(00:55):
JD had been shot eight times with a small caliber weapon.
Two females were not at the scene when a Good
samaritan rolled up and found JD inside their car. Sheriff's
deputies found their purses and shoes and an id. The
scene also showed a powerful struggle. JD had left his
(01:20):
home about three ten am, and again his body was
found by four The two women were later found off
Highway two thirty eight. Both had been shot and it
appeared to be a twenty two weapon. An old field
worker found them right at the Buckeye cutoff. The two
(01:44):
female victims had been out the night before with a
male friend. They drove him home to Carlsbad and were
headed back to Hobbs when they had the flat tire.
The area where they were found is flat, hot, full
of tumbleweeds and cactus. The victims, Dorothy Gibson, was twenty three, divorced,
(02:08):
lived in a small house at two two five South Coleman.
Barbara Lemons also twenty three and divorced. We're going to
get back to Barbara in a second.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
J D.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Cantrell was married, a truck driver and a father. JD
was shot eight times. The first question that popped into
my head is what were the women doing during this
just barrage of gunfire. They had to be petrified. The
other questions is did JD know them in some way?
(02:42):
Was there somebody that had injured their tire before and
forced the flat tire. People are normally killed for three reasons, sex, money,
and revenge. What doesn't appear anybody was robbed, doesn't appear
anybody was sexually assaulted, so that leaves us with revenge.
(03:03):
The best place to start this case is with the victimology.
The more we know about the victims, the clearer a
motive may come. Once you have a motive, it'll lead
you quite possibly to who today we are so fortunate
(03:23):
to have with us, Amber Clemens Bean. She is Barbara
Ann's paternal granddaughter. So let me tell y'all a little
bit about Amber. She will tell you she's shy. She'll
tell you she don't want to talk in public, she
doesn't want to address big crowds. But we have the
opportunity to present this case at crime con and y'all,
(03:47):
she put all that fear aside, she put all the
trepidation away, and for her grandmother, she addressed a packed
room at Crime cons just brilliantly and flawlessly as I've
ever seen. It was straight from her heart. She didn't
have a note card in her hand, and it was
(04:09):
so well received because y'all know that audience. We're all
like minded people. We want to help, we want to
help solve a case. And Amber, I just think you
did such a remarkable job. I just want to tell
you again it was amazing to watch you. Now. Amber,
you know triple homicides are rare. In those cases, you
(04:31):
have to do three separate victimologies, and then you've got
to look at connections between those three people, if any,
and then you have to go back and look at
each person and try to determine was there anybody in
their background that would want to kill them? And then
were the other two collateral damage or we're all three
(04:55):
targets or just two targets. And that's what I see
here in this case. So case number nine forty seven,
Dorothy Gibson, Barbara Lemons, and JD. Cantrell. What are the
connections for your grandmother to either one of the other victims?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
She was friends with Dorothy. I don't know that she
ever had any connection with JD. Cantrell. We were always
told he was possibly just collateral damage. There's been different
there's different theories. One of them is that he was
already on the scene helping the women with car trouble
when the assailant came upon the scene. He died at
(05:37):
the scene and the women were transported. The other one
is that the assailant was already there and the truck
driver stopped to help the women with and he was
killed and then the women were taken elsewhere. We do
know that the women were taken elsewhere, and it sounds
like he was possibly going to let them go because
they were out of the car and they were shot
(05:59):
while they were running, or at least one of them
was shot while they were running.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
That's what it looks like to me. The one crime
scene photo that we're able to see, that's exactly what
it looks like, that they were running. I don't know
that he was ever going to quote let them go,
but he certainly was not going to shoot them in
his car, right.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
He let them out of the car.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Right. So the original scene, it's a nineteen fifty two
Plymouth and the tire is off the car, so one
would assume, you know, back then in nineteen fifty seven,
that a man did stop to help them. There was
nothing on the women's hands like grease or you know,
any type of It didn't look like they had been
(06:42):
changing a tire.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
No, it sounds like he probably was right.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
And it was so early in the morning, I mean
you're talking about four am essentially. So JD. Leaves his
house about three ten, goes and picks up the rig
at work and then is driving when his rig is
pulled off the side of the road. The engine idle
and the lights are on, so he clearly saw I
think the two women. And the reason is, I believe
(07:09):
if he saw a man changing a tire or he'd
kept driving right. So I think he saw the two women.
And I think the assailant came up a little after.
I believe now maybe he would have stopped to help
another man that time of morning, but I'm just saying
I think the chances are better than it was two women.
Your time frame in the very beginning is tight. You're
(07:32):
not talking about a lot of time. It went by
right now before that. If you're working backwards at a
crime scene, which is what we do, so we know
what happened at four am, and if you're looking backwards,
the two women were doing what The night.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Before, they had gone to a bar or a club
essentially to hear a singer, Lefty Frizoe perform, and they
had a friend with them that they had dropped off
after prior to this happening, and then they from my
understanding is after they dropped their friend off, they had
gone to a cafe for something to eat.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
They had a male friend that they had dropped off,
so they drove him all the way home and were
coming back and stopped to get something to eat. Now, right,
This is critical to me because a lot of times,
if you were to ask any waiter or waitress about
a particular shift, they're probably not going to remember that.
(08:28):
Many people correct, but this waitress did. She did, and
what did she remember.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
She remembered there was a guy there who was watching
the women. He ordered, I believe, a salad, but he
didn't finish it, and when they left, he followed them out.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
This waitress not only remembered what the man ordered, she
remembered what he was wearing. He gave her that kind
of feeling that the way he's watching those women is
just not right.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yeah, she felt that it was off. It kind of
gave her an uneasy feeling.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
So they had been out, they had been having a
great time with a male friend, so they probably felt
safe there. But once they dropped him off, they went
to the diner alone and then carried on their trip
headed back to their residence. Something happened between the diner
and when the tire went flat, no doubt about it.
(09:27):
And it looks like JD. Cantrell literally was just a
good Samaritan.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Yes, what.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Was found at the crime scene of the women.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Everything was in the car. There was extra pairs of shoes,
their purses, everything was intact. They don't believe it was
robbery because nothing was stolen. Everything was in the car.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Okay, so pursa's shoes, ID wallet's keys, everything's in the
Plymouth and the original crime scene O. Correct. JD is
shot eight times.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
I believe it was eight. Yes, they said there was
some type of a struggle, but yes, he was shot
about eight times.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Now, it don't take eight times to kill somebody, and
it doesn't take eight separate shots to stop a threat.
So if this person brandished a weapon and a struggle ensued,
he didn't have to shoot him eight times. So that's
a large number that we need to file away and
(10:32):
just say, hey, that's kind of excessive.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
We'll just say that.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Then the women are taken from that scene and driven
out Highway two thirty eight. Now they're about thirty minutes
from the original crime scene.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Yes, Now, I just want everybody to think, two women
that have just witnessed a murder are now put into
a vehicle by the assailant for thirty minutes. That had
to be chaotic at best. They had to be screaming, crying,
worried about what was happening. So for thirty minutes, that
(11:11):
to me is an incredible amount of time that one
person is controlling two people and then looking for a
secondary location to either let them go or to murder them.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
And if you could see where they were taking there
was a lot of talk that they thought that it
was somebody that lived in the air or sorry that somebody,
that it was somebody the essay, that was somebody that
was passing through the area. If you could see, I've
been there, if you could see in person where this is.
It's very far off a road out in the middle
of nowhere, there's and it's not something you would know
(11:47):
was there if you didn't live in the area, right,
So it just makes me think that it was someone
that knew the area well, lived there maybe or had
a family there, or had lived there at one point,
just because of where it was.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Well, I can tell you this, they absolutely knew that
area because he managed to do this in the dark. Yes,
so he found this location without visibility. He knew it,
no doubt in my mind. So when the women are found,
they are twenty yards apart. I believe one was shot
almost immediately, and I believe the second one was running.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Yes, they think.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
I believe.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
I was always told it was Barbara Ann that was running,
but I'm not one hundred percent sure. They were both
found fully clothed. Yes, about twenty yards apart from each other.
There's no sign. They don't think there was sexual assault
just because they were they were fully clothed and nothing
was missing. I don't really know what they think that
the motive was. I've never really been told that other
(12:49):
than they don't think it was robbery.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Yeah, I would agree with that because nothing was taken,
not the car, not money, not jewelry, not purses, nothing,
nothing of value was taken off JD.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Right, everything was there. His wallet was left there. We
don't know what the motive was. I've never really been
told like, this is what we think the motive is.
They just that they don't think it was robbery and
they don't think it was like a sexual assault because
there wasn't any.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
And if you'd think about JD being shot eight to
ten times and there were five shotgun shells found at
the scene, this is somebody that was prepared to murder
three people, and did.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
I don't know. I guess said if it was premeditated
or how he picked his victims, if it was random.
I don't know that they ever determined if it was
someone that knew them or if it was random.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Now the women, they both had separate homes, but they
did try to rent an apartment together in another town. Yes,
and they wanted to get jobs at JC Penny.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Correct, they had applied there.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Does anything there stand out for you, like why did
they go to another town and why JC Penny? Like
were they trying to literally start new lives?
Speaker 2 (14:10):
I think maybe after the divorce, they were just trying
to start fresh somewhere. You know, Hobbs is a small area,
it's not real big, but that's kind of my theory
is maybe they were just trying to get a fresh
start and raise their kids. And well I don't think
Dorothy didn't have children, but my grandma did. Barbaran did.
So I think she was just trying to raise her
children and start fresh in a new area.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
I mean they were both young, they were only twenty
three correct, Yes, And maybe if they thought, you know,
if we get an apartment together, you know, Dorothy could
have helped Barbara Ann with the children. Maybe they could
have gotten separate shifts so somebody was always home. I mean,
it might have been a great setup where they could
have helped each other. You know, Barbara would be paying
(14:54):
half the bills, so Dorothy would be in better shape financially. Right,
you know, there's there's worse ideas, you know, but then
you have to look at these two women are friends.
But could one of the women have been a target?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yeah, we always told that one of the women was,
that one of them was a target. We just didn't
know why or which one was the target, and that
the other the truck driver and the other women were
just collateral damage. They happened to be there, wrong place,
wrong time, and.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Both ex husbands were looked at.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Yes, everybody was looked at at the time.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Because Dorothy was shot in the ear, well that seems
like a kill shot, whereas Barbara ann was hit in
the arm and some other places. So you might on
paper think Dorothy might be a target. And law enforcement
has told you what about this case and looking into
this case.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Many years back, they did tell me they had the
name of a suspect, but they couldn't tell me who
the suspect was. The person is deceased, and I said, well,
why can't you tell me? And they said, because the
person is protected. And I said, okay, but what about her?
What about the three victims and their protection? When do
they get that because they were killed and we've been
(16:18):
fighting all this time for answers, and I had people
write letters and telling him that, you know, once the
person is deceased, it's okay to tell her the name,
and they still wouldn't do it. They I found out
that the police were the sheriff and the captain were
running against each other for the office. So I thought, oh,
(16:39):
maybe that's why I'm not getting answers, because the captain
wanted to thought about telling me, but then the sheriff said, no,
I do know that. At the time, the captain told somebody, well,
it doesn't matter because everybody's dead, and I thought, well, no,
not everybody's dead. We're all still here fighting. We're still
(16:59):
here fighting for answers, you know, sixty eight years later.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Not everybody's dead, that's right.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
And now there.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
I know.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
At the time when the murder happened, they were bringing
back a suspect from Texas to question him, and a
new sheriff was elected, and that sheriff fired all the deputies,
so that deputy that was bringing that suspect back from
Texas how to let him go. So he was never
questioned when.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Some people say, well, it's been so long and you know,
nobody's living anymore that went through it, But that's not
true because you went through it generationally, because you lived
with your dad having nightmares and not being able to function,
and not trust in people and not wanting to go
off by self somewhere. I mean, this wasn't something that
(17:49):
happened when he was three and he wasn't aware of
it by the age of seven. He knew it his
whole life. He lived it his whole life, and therefore
so do you you in a very real way.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
He lived his whole life. And I think essentially that's
maybe why part of the reason they separated him and
his sister is the thought process was if they're separate,
nobody can find them. But he lived his life afraid
that they were going to find out he was her
(18:22):
child and he was going to become after they were
going to come for him next. And I've talked to
the daughters of the man that was married to Dorothy
they're not her daughters, but he had children later and
he was very much that way too, like very protective,
very had to know where they were all the time.
(18:44):
You need to be home, I need to know where
you are. And I'm sure that's an after effect of
his wife being murdered.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Of course, and especially in a small town, because everybody's
got to be looking at everybody, anybody that had an
affair with one of the women, anybody that dated the
women before or after their divorces. You know, everybody is suspect, right.
(19:12):
You know, did somebody that she didn't marry become a stalker?
You know, did the ex husband have somebody that you know,
thought they were going to get back at her? Like
there's you never know, Like there's all kinds of stories
that are going to circulate, There's all kinds of rumors
that are going to happen, but the bottom line is
you don't know. Because the other twist is the way JD.
(19:35):
Cantrell was treated. Was he a target? He was certainly
shot more times than the women combined.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Right, And there was a struggle with him, and.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
There was a struggle, So it wasn't like somebody just
came up and shot him from a distance.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah, they were. It was up close close range.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
So again with triple homicides, and you're looking at victimology,
you're going to look at the age of all the folks.
You're going to look at their marital status, You're going
to look at where they worked, what they had been
doing the months leading up to the murder, you know,
And this is where the people in the community and
(20:16):
family and co workers can be so helpful. What do
we know? And that's how we found out about J. C. Penny.
And then they were able to track down the actual
applications that they filled out that Dorothy and Barbara, you know,
they put addresses down, they put why they were looking
for this employment, their past employment, and I think that
(20:38):
is great information for law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Definitely.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yeah, you know, you have not stopped in your investigation.
You have not been satisfied with the information that you've
ascertained so far, and you recently were able to see
some things in the case file that you had never
been shown.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Before right when I went to New Mexico.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yes, I mean, I think that's one of those things
that here's the bottom line for any young detective listening
to this show. You can take a complete murder box
that you have in your office and you can look
at every single piece of evidence in it. That does
(21:21):
not mean you understand it. So if there is a
birthday card, if there is a receipt, if there is
a photograph, ask the family, ask friends. They may can
add to what that means or signifies that you will
never know. So when Amber is able to look through
(21:44):
that box and she has all the stories that she's
been told for sixty years, some of those things may
leap out at her. Whereas law enforcement might say, oh,
that's just a Valentine's Day card, it's meaningless. It's not meaningless.
A telegram is not meaningless. A receipt for a pair
(22:04):
of shoes is not meaningless. So again I think what
you're doing and going back and sitting with the detective
and looking through the murder box, your cell is so
important in everybody understanding who Barbara Lemons was.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
It was just within the last two years that I
was able to go there and see the items they
invited me there. I had actually written a letter to
the newspaper and the police department requesting that they reopened
the case because they wouldn't tell me names, They wouldn't
tell me suspects, They wouldn't tell me anything. So I said, well,
then I can only assume that it's not solved and
I want it reopened. So they reopened it and they
(22:50):
said I could come there. I went on a road
trip to New Mexico and was able to meet with
them and view everything they had, which was a lot
go through. There is, I think, stuff that's missing that
they can't find, like evidence, but I don't know that
she'll trying to find it. They had a lot of
stuff that they said probably could have given back to
(23:12):
been given back a long time, like they still had
the truck driver's wallet. Just a lot of things that
probably could have been given back to the families a
long time ago. Mostly that, But there's just a lot
of back and forth and not giving us answers, and
(23:33):
just sixty eight years of continuing to fight. Now it's
my turn. I've fought for a long time. I actually
found out when I was in elementary school that she
had been murdered. I didn't know until I was in
elementary school. We were watching, oddly enough, we were watching
(23:53):
unsolved mysteries, and my mom said that we should call
and see if they would feature the show. But you know,
we were in elementary school that my mom says we
didn't show much interest back then, and I don't think it.
We just we were kids. But that's yeah, it was
probably like I mean, maybe elementary school, so maybe fifth grade,
(24:15):
fourth grade when they found out.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Well, well, that's why I said sixty years for you,
because I figured you were about eight or so, even
though I knew it had been sixty eight years, but
still for sixty years. This is something that you have
carried with you in some form or fashion. I had
a chance to speak with the lead detective now on
(24:40):
the case, and you know, he was great to talk
to me and was very open about things. You know,
but like I told you, after I spoke to him,
you know, he's not going to share everything, and he's
not going to name a name. Even if I gave
him a suspect name, he wasn't going to say yes
or no to it. If you're going to keep information
(25:03):
close to the vest, then there needs to be action
taken by you that it is clear to the family
that this is still trying to be solved. If you're
just keeping it close to the vest, then you don't
want to talk about it because you're afraid a family
of a suspect is going to get upset. That's not
(25:24):
the right call.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
And I think that was always their thought process, even
back when I was dealing with the previous captain, was well,
we don't want someone to come after us. We're going
to name this person, and then if it gets out
there and they find out, we don't want to be
pursuant to a lawsuit. And that's how they feel now.
As they were like, well, we have to try to
(25:49):
they don't because they told me they had the name
of somebody, and they told me that there would be
a press conference that I would be invited to when
they named the person, but they didn't want the name
released because they were trying to pin down family and
notify them first. But I just I left there thinking
(26:13):
that I wasn't getting the complete truth from them.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
You know, when I spoke with the lead detective, we
offered help with experts or private labs, anything he might need.
I am completely convinced that the assailant to get those
two women in the car had to grab at least
one or both of them and shove them. So you know,
(26:36):
you never know. I mean, stranger things have happened, and
they've been able to get DNA off more unusual items
than that from a cold case. It'd be worth a
shot to me. But you know, I think back about
our time at crime Con this past year, and remember,
I gotta tell you. Leading up to crime Con, you
(26:59):
were like, I don't know, I'm not a public speaker.
I'm not sure I'm going to talk. I mean, I'm
gonna be there and I want to support, you know,
my grandmother, but I just don't count on me for
getting on stage. No problem, it's all gonna be good.
It's gonna be great, honey. When you got there, you
were so fantastic. And here's what I think resonated for
(27:23):
me more than anything. You went out there and there
was a sea of people. That room was packed amber
wall to wall, people that you don't know, spotlight on you,
and you took that microphone and spoke so sweetly about
your daddy, about your grandmama, who you never even got
(27:47):
a chance to meet. How it changed your life, the
things your daddy suffered through, and that audience connected with
you so profoundly that you received I don't know six
or seven minutes standing ovation. I mean it, and I
(28:10):
was like, not bad with somebody that wasn't gonna talk.
But you know, I also think as a parent, you know,
your daddy's got to be so proud of you for
what you've done. I mean, you overcame some fear, you
traveled a long distance, you're still traveling, You're still trying
to get the word out, you're building a website, and
(28:34):
I just admire what you're doing again for a grandmother
you never had a chance to meet.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Thank you. It's definitely been along road and it's definitely
not over. We will keep the word out there. It's
come down to now me and my cousins just trying
to fight. My mom's a good supporter.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Oh yeah, she was right with you, honey.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
She keeps me on it. The days of the times
I get frustrated and I think, gosh, I'm never going
to get answers, and why am I doing this? She says, Nope,
We're going to continue to fight and we're going to
keep going. I want people to know that these lives mattered.
My grandmother was a mom, and a sister and a
daughter and a grandmother that never got to know her grandchildren.
(29:24):
There's seven of us that she never got to know.
She has great grandchildren. The truck driver he never got
to see his kids grow up. He has grandchildren he
never got to know. And they're more than just faces.
They're more than just victims. They were people that meant
a lot to a lot of people, and past generation
to pass on not knowing what happened. But we will
(29:47):
continue to fight, and we will continue to try to
get answers, enclosures for our families, and if it takes
every last breath I got, I'm going to continue to
fight for her and continue to try to get answers
from somebody, because somebody knows something. You don't just kill
three people in cold blood and disappear and not say something,
(30:09):
not talk to somebody. So there's answers somewhere, we just
have to look under the right rocks to find them.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
That was perfectly stated. And I'll tell you you know,
I don't believe in coincidences in my job. I just don't.
And there are so many things here that it just
looks like, oh, that's just a coincidence that JD showed up.
It's a coincidence they dropped a friend off it's a coincidence.
The waitress noticed somebody. I just don't I don't buy it.
(30:40):
And you and I are very fortunate on this case.
Because y'all there's another episode coming and that's going to
be with Paul Holes, the investigator that y'all all know
and love. Amber's met him. Now, Amber's a fan. He
is awesome, and he's agreed to help out. And he's
one of those folks too that can help me reach
out to law enforcement and have a conversation to say, look,
(31:02):
we're just here to help. And Paul has had some
tremendous luck, as you all know, with the Golden State Killer,
but that ain't the only case he's cracked. So he
has joined us in this investigation and so we will
see what we are able to do. I'm going to
end Zone seven the way that I always do with
a quote. Justice is what love sounds like when it
(31:27):
speaks in public. Michael Eric Dyson. I'm a Cheryl McCollum,
and this is Zone seven.
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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