October 16, 2024 • 45 mins
On February 14, 2017, Abigail Williams and Liberty German are discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana.
In this episode of Zone 7, Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum, is joined by Susan Hendricks to update the listeners on the latest news on The Delphi murders involving victims Abby Williams and Libby German, who were killed in February 2017. Sheryl and Susan recount the day's events, discuss the ongoing investigation, and consider recent updates. They also discuss the case's timeline, witness testimonies, suspect sketches, and the significant emotional toll on the victims' families. Lastly, they examine Richard Allen's possible actions and incriminating statements, courtroom strategies, the jury's visit to the crime scene, and courtroom deliberations, including debates on evidence admissibility and potential ritualistic motives.
Susan Hendricks is a journalist and author. She has worked with CNN and HLN, known for her compassionate reporting style. She deeply connects to the Delphi case, having authored the book "Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi"
Listeners can connect more with Susan on IG @susan_hendricks or X @SusanHendricks
Previous Zone 7 Episodes Covering The Delphi Case -
The latest on the Delphi murders: Delphi murders hearing, JonBenet Ramsey #news, Idaho student murders update | Headline #Crime
Previous Zone 7 episode about Delphi murders: The Delphi Murders: The Quest for Justice with Barbara MacDonald
Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi written by: Susan Hendricks
Show Notes:
- (0:00) Welcome back to Zone 7 with Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum
- (1:00) Background of The Delphi Murders
- (2:00) Sheryl welcomes returning guest, Susan Hendricks to Zone 7
- (2:30) The Day of the Disappearance
- (5:00) Timeline Analysis
- (8:00) Eyewitness Accounts and Sketches
- (11:00) The Scene of the Crime and the Cell Phone
- (15:30) Speculations and Theories
- (24:30) Childhood Memories and Fearlessness
- (26:45) Witness Testimonies and Alibis
- (30:00) Richard Allen's 61 Incriminating Statements
- (35:30) The Role of Jury Selection
- (41:00) Reflections and Gratitude
- (45:00) “I do have faith in the system. I believe they can find jurors who will look at the evidence. I don't think we know all the evidence, but I think the jury will be able to look at it and make a decision.” -S.H
- Thanks for listening to another episode! If you’re loving the show and want to help grow the show, please head over to Itunes and leave a rating and review!
---
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook., Cold Case: Pathways to Justice. Sheryl is also the founder and director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, a collaboration between universities and colleges that brings researchers, practitioners, students
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Y'all tonight we're going to get an update on Delphi
and those of you that may not know this case,
I'm just going to briefly, and I mean briefly because
there's a lot over the last seven years. But it
was February thirteenth, twenty seventeen, when thirteen year old Abby
(00:30):
Williams and fourteen year old Libby Jerman they had a
day off of school and they just wanted to go
to the high Bridge and hang out and take pictures
and just do what friends do hang out. Libby's sister,
who then was seventeen, Kelsey, dropped them off right at
(00:50):
the head of the trail, waved by to them, reminded them, hey,
Dad's going to pick y'all up around three o'clock. When
Dad gets there, he cannot find them anywhere. He starts
calling other family members. Have they walked home? Did they
get a ride? Has anybody seen them? Nobody had seen them.
(01:11):
The family all comes to the high Bridge, They take
different trails looking for them. They ask people that are
walking around, have you seen two girls together? Nothing? Not
a sight of them anywhere. The search goes on through
the night, even though the sheriff tried to call it
off because he thought it was too dangerous for people
to be out there in the dark. Friends and family
(01:31):
would not leave. In less than twenty four hours, their
bodies were found north of Deer Creek. Libby heroically had
taken a video of a man that she captured on
the high Bridge, a video so we know what he
looks like. That video also captured his voice. A suspect
(01:55):
was arrested October of twenty twenty two. So now I'm
going to bring in our friend, Susan Hendrix. Y'all know her.
She literally wrote the book it's called Down the Hill,
My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. She worked
for CNN HLN as an anchor. She's an investigative reporter,
(02:18):
she's a podcaster, and most importantly to me, she is
part of my Zone seven. Susan, thank you for being
with us tonight, Charlol.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
It's so good to be on with you. And when
you were recapping for those who aren't as familiar with
the story, that day is etched in our minds for
those who do know it, And as you were talking
about Libby's dad, the girls weren't nowhere to be found.
He was there to pick them up. I could just
wonder did the person that did this hear the voice
(02:49):
of Libby's dad who said he called down to them
and couldn't find the girls. It's just chilling to think
of that day so many years ago.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Now that's a horrific scene. And you know what, Susan,
I've never heard anybody ask that possibly the killer could
have still been close enough to hear her dad call her.
And you know, as a parent, I mean, you've got children.
I've got children, and there's always a plan like oh,
can I please go here? Can I please go there?
(03:17):
And it's like okay, but you know, I'm going to
be there at three o'clock, six o'clock, nine o'clock, whatever
it is, to pick you up. And if they're not
right outside, at first, you know, you're like, well, they're teenagers.
They're going to push that a little bit, and maybe
they're going to be ten minutes late, fifteen minutes late.
But then you start to get concerned. If you don't
(03:39):
see them and they're not answering their phone, it doesn't
take long to be in a full panic, even though
they may just be talking to friends and not even
realize twenty minutes has passed.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Right, Especially at that age thirteen and fourteen, you could
lose track of time. And so at first there really
wasn't that much of a concern. I know that Derek
called Backy and said to be heard from the girls,
and she said no. And then slowly but surely, the
concerns started to build. And they never thought they would
(04:13):
hear that the girls were murdered. I mean, it didn't
even cross their mind at that particular time. They thought
maybe the girls were hurt because Cheryl, as you know,
that bridge is treacherous, even stepped on her walk near
So that's where their mind went initially, could someone fallen?
Did they both fall and it was getting colder as
the night went on. Never ever did they think they
(04:33):
would discover the girl's bodies the next day.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
And you know that's the thing. You're not talking about
New York City, You're not talking about Chicago. You're talking
about Delphi, Indiana, that has never had a child murder.
That wasn't somebody in the family. Of course, it wouldn't
have crossed their mind. It's never happened. It's something that
big cities maybe deal with, but Delphi in the middle
(04:59):
of the day, in the middle of the day, in
broad daylight, in a place where other people were around.
Other people were birdwatching and hiking and riding bikes and
just enjoying the beautiful warm weather because it was unseasonably warm.
It had snowed previously, but on that day it was
pretty warm.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Absolutely, and that you bring that up, Cheryl that day,
and that of course will be the focus. What I believe,
based on new filings, the focus now of the defense
is the timeline, not what did they do, when did
they do it, and who was around to see it,
and what did they tell authorities and does it all
(05:42):
line up and make sense?
Speaker 1 (05:44):
And you know, the timeline, that's your money tree as
an investigator. And this one, Kelsey drops them off a
little after one o'clock. They're supposed to be picked up
by three. To me, that's a tide window for the
location you're talking about. They weren't transported in a vehicle.
(06:05):
They were walked what a half a mile from the bridge,
So that's going to take a little bit of time,
right because it's uphill about a half a mile to
get to where the actual killing site was. So from
the bridge, when they're kidnapped to where they're walked. That
eats into a little bit of time the time they're
(06:27):
on the bridge, where again, I personally believe something happened
overtly before she started filming. That's what caused her to film.
I think, so again, you're talking about twenty minutes here,
twenty minutes there. Well, an hour's already gone of just
the setup and then the hike, So you don't you're
(06:49):
not talking about a long period of time. I don't think.
I think this was very fast with.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Abby on the bridge and the snapshot picture that was
sent by Libby, so that is a definite time, and
it's what happened soon after that photo was taken of
Abby walking on the bridge, And what.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Was the time of that snatjat That's what.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
I was looking for. Was it too o nine? I
believe it was to two.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
O nine sticks out in my mind, but I didn't
want to say it because I wasn't sure if that
was something else.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
I believe it was two nine. I did hear Abby's
mom say through various interviews before that, she said that
that day of course sticks out, but the details. She
said that certain people were fixated on Abby's sweater. What
was she wearing? People who were critical of it, no
matter what family was saying, what, oh, they're off by
(07:46):
a minute.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Or was she wearing a.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Sweater or was it a jacket? And it stood out
to me when Anna said, I don't know what jacket,
I don't know what sweater and they said it was
my sweater, but it was her sweater, and saying that
the minutia of that doesn't stand out because you're in shock.
It's where's my daughter? I cannot believe this happened to
her rather than the exact time. But we do have
(08:08):
the exact time again based on that particular photo. Yes
it was two nine, so that stands out. But if
I believe that the timeline is off, let's say, depending
on the witnesses. And you know, Cheryl more than most
that eyewitnesses cannot only be off on a specific time.
Maybe they were there unless their cell phone was on,
(08:29):
and they can document that, but also what they see.
And you and I both know the sketches will be
a huge part for this defense. At the latest here
and where I was, I remember the two attorneys walking in.
It was Baldwin and Rosie. Baldwin had the huge, giant
size sketches, side by side sketches, and how different they look.
(08:52):
And I believe that that will be part of the defense, saying, Okay,
did the eyewitness see this particular person that looks very
young the sketch? Again, it's not a photograph or this sketch?
Which was it? And was it both? And this is
worth repeating. Becky always said, I believe that it was
based on the person's age, on what they saw and
(09:15):
what they described to the sketch artist, meaning if you're older,
you may think the person looks younger. If you're very young,
you may think the person looks older. And I think
if he kind of put them together in front of
each other, which the superintendent has said that they can
have similar features. But I believe that that will be
the focus.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
I think that's brilliant because the older I get, the
younger certain people look.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
To me. I was just watching an NFL game and
I'm saying, wait, now, the coaches look.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Young at the point, right, Okay, Well, I recently went
to a police academy graduation and I'm like, these are babies, Like,
why are we giving them guns? Are you out of
your mind? Because they looked so young. That's what we
looked like back in college. We forget it's so pitiful.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
What Becky said is correct, but I'm assuming that they'll
be poking holes in that. There is a motion to
compel that was filed, and this was filed within the
timeline of saying we want the jurors to go visit
the crime scene, to go to the bridge, to kind
of walk the path that Abby and Levy walked. And
(10:28):
the motion to compel has to do with law enforcement
being deposed and specific answers that they did not answer
based on the advice of the prosecutor McCleland. So they
want the judge judge goal to make them answer a
specific question. And it stood out to me here it said,
(10:49):
is the state's timeline, and I'm reading from the motion
to compel, is the state's timeline and theory of the
case as it relates to Richard Allen fatally lawed, meaning
if they are off by a specific time or and
it brings up the witnesses. It says, if neither one
witness nor the other witness observed Richard Allen on February thirteenth,
(11:13):
twenty seventeen, is the State's timeline and theory of the
case as it relates to Richard Allen fatally flawed. So
if anything's off, I would assume that that's where they're going,
that this couldn't have been because where was Richard Allen.
They also want the jurors to visit where Richard Allen
allegedly parked in front of the old Child Protective Services
(11:36):
building allegedly between one thirty and four. So I think
going back to the bridge sharel relates also to the timeline.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
The timeline is critical, there's no question about it, between witnesses,
between you know, items that were found. Her telephone, I mean,
think about it. Her cell phone is a money tree
because she did not record just guys down the hill.
We all know that there's more that's real time too.
(12:10):
So from the snapchat at two nine to the time
of the video, those are locked, we know that happen.
We also know by three o'clock nobody's hearing them. No,
they're nobody's screaming, nobody's running, nobody's calling on their phones. Again,
this was a very fast deal. And y'all here's the reality.
(12:35):
Most children that are going to be murdered or murdered
in the first three hours. It's not a long drawn
out thing. If that's the result the perpetrator wants, it's
going to be fast. Your average rate lasts two minutes.
So again, even if they're both sexually assaulted more than once,
you're not even talking about a half hour. It's not
(12:56):
what people think. I'm one of those people, and I
get a lot of flight when I say this, but
I'm gonna say it again. I believe the jury should
see the scene absolutely, without question. It's important even if
the scene has quote changed, all of it hadn't, and
they will be able to infer. Okay, the bridge has
(13:20):
been repaired some Now we can't walk on it. You
can still see how high it is. You can still
see how narrow it is. You can see there's no railing. Right,
you can see the creek from there, and you can
ascertain yourself. Hey, if I'm standing here, you can't watch
(13:40):
fish from here. That doesn't make any sense, Cheryl.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
As you know, only half of it's repaired, so with
the railings. I haven't been there since it's been repaired,
but from the images I've seen, and then it stops
because then it's on private property. So it almost cuts
off to the edge. You can walk off and see
the dilapidated bridge, so you can see what it used
to look like, almost like a before and after. If
(14:05):
there's ever a scene, ever a scene that should be
seen by jurors, that's it, because I'll tell you, and
I heard from Paul Hols who said the same thing.
So did you eryl your thoughts about the crime and
your opinion or if you had one going in completely
changes once you see that bridge. It changes everything. It
(14:26):
did for me because I saw Richard Allen, or not
Richard Allen. I saw the man on the bridge. We
didn't know who it was yet allegedly now they believe
it was Richard Allen was walking and I thought at
the time when that was released, they thought, we'd like
to spe early on, we'd like to speak to this
person on the bridge. He could be a witness. And
just the hands in the pocket and the lookdown. I
(14:47):
didn't think the bridge would be that high until I
saw in person and listen.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
That's why I believe something overtly happened. And I have
said this from day one of the video or the photograph,
but I know there's a video seen it but I
know it exists. That photo. If you look at it,
like you said, his hands are in his pockets and
it almost looks like he's to the far right, which
(15:11):
to me is signifies he's turning around, which is why
she's videotaping. So I think he passed them, said or
did something, and then when he's turning around, she's capturing
him already. That's how just awful. Whatever he did alerted
her to the point that Libby pulled out her phone
(15:34):
and videotaped that man.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Absolutely, and I remember reading one of the witness statements
saying that he just one of them thought he seemed creepier,
didn't smile, and I'm paraphrasing here, but there was I
would assume that there was some sort of that Libby
and Mike has said this plenty of times. I think
(15:56):
she was plannying coming home and saying, look, Grandpa, this
creepy guy in the bridge. So I think that's exactly
what exactly occurred on that bridge. But you're right, she
knew to start hitting record, and in the video when
you see kind of the walk, I know they only
released kind of a step and a half, so it's
a little odd. And I remember when Superintendent Doug Carter said,
(16:19):
look at his gate. This was before at the press
conference before they released that short video of the walk.
Keep in mind of where he's walking, but watch the gate.
But keep in mind this is a dilapordated bridge with
big gaps in between, so this isn't a stroll on
a sidewalk. But take a look and do you recognize anything.
And you kind of almost see the knee turn a
(16:41):
little bit. So I think you're absolutely right that Libby
hit record and he turned around. And there's been speculation
on if in fact it was again innocent. He'll proven
guilty of Richard Allen. Was this a plan for having Libby?
I believe based on what I've read, and I'm this
(17:01):
is just a guest. I don't know exactly what happened,
his thoughts beforehand. Maybe the evidence will show that. I
believe that he planned to do something that day and
Abby and Libby were there. I don't believe it was
the plan to do that to Abby and Libby. But
I think with the first set of girls who walked by,
there were four, three were listed because one was a
(17:24):
minor at the time. Four girls, and maybe he thought
four is too many. Then there was one woman, older woman,
turned around past Abby and Libby. According to her statement,
upcome Abby and Libby to the bridge. And did he
say in his mind maybe he had been down at
the bridge several times, he lived nearby. Maybe he had
been planning this four years. We don't know, and maybe
(17:46):
in his mind he thought, now's the time.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Well, he certainly picked the right day and he went
murder ready. He had everything he needed to accomplish what
he did.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
The kids had off from school. Since we haven't heard
about the alibi. Was he off of CVSDY of off
on Mondays? Did he work the weekends? Was got the
perfect day for him? Knowing that girls would be down there, Kitts.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
It's the perfect place. And that bridge, it does it
for you. They can't jump off of it right, and
if you brandish your weapon, you're going to be able
to control them fairly easily.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
It feels like a trap when you see it.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
It's, oh, it's absolutely it's the greatest trap you've ever seen,
because as soon as he turns around, they only have
one direction to go, and that's the direction he wants
them to go in because he's already got that, you know,
that location, and had things I believe there again, ready
to fulfill whatever it was he did there.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
And maybe he said to them, follow me and it'll
be okay, or I'm not sure.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
What he said, but but you can hear him given
direction down the hill. Yep, he's telling them. And another thing.
And we've all talked about this, but it's worth mentioning again.
He is so controlled. He's almost quiet guys down the
hill like he's on autopilot. He knows what's going to happen.
(19:12):
They're probably trying just to hey, let's do what he
says so he won't hurt us. A lot of people believe.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
That, Oh yeah, because I've been asked that, Cheryl, and
you know the answer. But it seems like a very
easy answer to me. I'm thirteen. My sister's fourteen were
a year apart. Let's say we're down there and I
see a gun, we're following him. It's not like we're
in our twenties or even then. Maybe I would follow him.
I don't know, but a gun would scare me enough
(19:39):
that I would comply.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
And here's the important thing for the jury. They would
be able to see the trails, see the bridge, see
where the crime scene was. The distance I think is
really important. And then where a car was parked and
that proximity, So then from the cemetery to the car
as the crow flies, was this again scouted out and
(20:05):
pre planned? It would sure make me think.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
That I'm wondering if they think that because of the
time and that we saw that snapchat picture of Abby
on the bridge, is the defense going to go in
this direction and say there's not enough time for Richard
Allen to have walked down the hill murder two girls
(20:30):
and then walk back up to where he was allegedly
spotted muddy and bloody. And I think, Cheryl, that they're
pivoting away based on the ruling by Judge gall from
the third party from the odist ritualistic sacrifice to now,
it doesn't make sense. These are contradicting each other in
terms of witnesses and the timeline doesn't fit. So I
(20:52):
see that's kind of where they'll go during the trial.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Quite possibly, you know, but again we don't know for
sure because the car didn't move to almost four o'clock,
so he had to me plenty of time from two
nine to four o'clock plenty of time.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
That's true because if you think where he was walking to,
what did he do following that? Who was home? Was
his if it was Richard Allen, was his wife home?
Where was the location of anyone that would know him?
Were they in his vicinity? And what was he doing
before that car moved?
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Anything that he ever said at work, anything that he
ever said to his wife's friends, casual acquaintances, like maybe neighbors,
even everybody's going to focus on that and they would
call and they would say, hey, he mentioned this. He
said that he was fixated on this. He talked about
(21:49):
this all the time, just like the neighbor that called
and said, hey, I saw him burning a bunch of
stuff after the police visited him the first time. I
think there's other people that have come forward that we
don't know anything about.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
And that's an excellent point that we don't know everything clearly.
I mean, you have to do in terms of the
prosecution in discovery, you share that with the defense in
vice versa, and share what you have before trial. But absolutely,
I don't believe the public it's been released in terms
of what we know and what we'll hear at trial.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
You and I have been to that bridge more than
one time, and I will tell you again, I was stunned.
On the trail from where we parked our car to
the bridge. I was stunned. There were homes.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Oh so it was hot.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
It's just not something right, that's not something I thought.
So again, I think that's important for the jury. They
need to be able to see that. They need to
be able to see what's north, south, east and west
of that bridge. They need to see where he could
have come, where he could have exited. You know, does
it make the most sense he would have parked a
(22:55):
car here and why all of those things seem like
the killer scouted this area and they need to be
able to come to that conclusion on their own. But
there's only one way to do it. Like you said,
I could describe that bridge to people all day long,
but when you're standing there. My sister Charlane couldn't wait
(23:19):
to get on that bridge and walk across it. I'm like, well,
you can tell me what it looks like, because it
just doesn't look safe in any way. And it was
much higher than I thought, and there were boards missing,
there were other boards that were rotted, and I'm like, yeah,
this is a dangerous bridge to traverse in any way,
(23:43):
much less with your hands in your pocket. It takes
your breath.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Away when you see it, maybe because we know what
happened there, but when I walked up to it, and
I think, even if nothing happened there and I walked
up to that bridge, I would say, that's what I said.
I was with Kelsey the first time I walked there.
I know you were there with Kelsey. This was twenty nineteen,
and I went and it really just took my breath
(24:06):
away because of how massive it is, sixty three feet high.
You could say that all day. That sounds hip, but
when you see it in person, and I'm scared of heights.
And two photojournalists were with us from CNN and they
had drones and they were, you know, they're just so
skilled at what they do, great friends, and so they said,
(24:27):
come on, Susan, can you just I said, I'm scared
of heights. I said, well, just take a couple steps
out and just talk about what you're going to say
in a stand up as it's called. And I literally
couldn't walk, Cheryl, not two feet, not a foot. I
couldn't step on there no.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
I get it. And you know how older sisters can be.
Charlene was like, come on, come on, and she said,
you're not scared of hide. She was able to walk
on it, oh honey, like it was nothing.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
See that's brave.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
And she was like, you're not afraid of hides. And
I said, I'm not afraid of hides, I'm afraid of rickity.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
I mean, well, I will say because I do mention
this when I wrote about it, because I think I
was so drawn to this case for so many reasons.
Of course the family, but immediately when I saw the
picture of Abby, I thought of my sister and I.
We used to go, we called it down the brook
behind my house in New Jersey, and there was these
(25:22):
sewer pipes, massive pipes. I'd say that there's pipe one
and pipe two, and we meet each other. We were like,
I'm not kidding ten eleven, twelve thirteen. We were in
the back of our house all the time on these
pipes with slimy water and didn't care. And so the
second pipe, I'd say was about twenty feet up. I
wouldn't walk on that one, but the lower one pipe
(25:44):
one was about fifteen feet and I got so used
to it, I'd stroll across it. So I think when
you're young, when you're that age, you don't have any fear.
I didn't. This came later, the fear of pipes. But
so I think that I know that Libby had been
on there, how many times Abby had. They took their time,
but they were able to do that, and those who
(26:05):
aren't afraid of fights. But with Richard Allen, just seeing
that and seeing the video and him strolling, you would
have thought it was two feet up or just a sidewalk.
He was strolling.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
As far as the jury visiting, I'm for it. They
got to be able to walk it, hear it, see it,
smell it. They just do. They've got to know the
area and they've got to say to themselves, what does
this scene tell me now? The other thing that has happened.
(26:35):
They said they can't mention the oldinizzle. I think that's
the right call too.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
I do too, And I was there at the hearing.
I mean, the judge hadn't made the ruling yet, but
when this was discussed, and when I saw the judges
ruling in writing, it did say you can bring this
up if you can prove that they were there. Now,
mind you, there were witnesses called through the stand. It
(27:02):
was three days, twelve hour days, three days. It felt
like a mini trial, which it really essentially was in
terms of what can be admissible and what's not. But
they would call a witness to the stand and you
would think, Okay, was he there? That's weird to say
on Facebook. Okay, you have me here. This person said
(27:24):
to one of the investigators and I'm paraphrasing, if my
spit is found at the scene, am I in trouble?
That was Elvis Field? Well, of course that's going to
raise eyebrows. I mean, why wouldn't it. But nothing, Then
they bring someone else on the stand, another investigator. He said, look,
nothing we could do place them there. There were alibis
(27:45):
that they had. I believe it was Brad Holder who
clocked into work and then the gym, and with Elvis Fields,
I believe he was at home. But nothing could ever
put them at the scene. Nothing physically that they were
able to find to connect them there. But the judge
did say, if there is evidence that you could put
(28:05):
them at the scene, then of course you can bring
them in. So there was kind of a reaction to
that by some saying this is not fair. How could
she do this? The defense doesn't have a defense, Well
they do if they can prove that. You just can't
pick a name out of a hat and put them
at the crime scene and allege that they did it,
or say that they did it without evidence. And I
(28:26):
believe that they wanted to release that one hundred and
thirty six page memorandum disguised as a Frank's hearing to
get this out because there is a gag order and
they weren't allowed to say all this.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
So of course.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Myself included all the news organizations talked about this document.
What was in it? Then it got the word out?
Could it have been ritualistic? Could it have been odness?
Now everyone's open to saying maybe it was. No one's
tied to any particular suspect. And I always repeat this
when I'm challenged about it. Why would the families want
(29:00):
someone who's not guilty in custody and have a killer
still out there. It doesn't make sense. It just doesn't.
So I think that really kind of hurt them releasing that,
because if they were able to prove that or brought
maybe Elvis Field or Brad holder on the stand, it said,
and question them about that day, where they were and
what was found. But now I think that's not allowed,
(29:22):
of course, without the evidence. Now I believe they're pivoting
to the timeline and poking holes in the investigation. And
you know, Cheryl, that investigation. I mean, it was almost
six years before someone was arrested, and even the family
was frustrated, and law enforcement themselves. Doug Carter said to
me several times, I've never had a case where we've
(29:43):
had this much evidence without someone in custody. He would say,
blame me, I understand. Just a wonderful man, he'd say,
I understand. So he understood the frustration, but he said,
there's certain things we can't say and won't say. Imagine
if they said there was an unspot bullet and let's
say it is Richard Allen and then he got rid
(30:04):
of the gun. So I understand that. But I believe
that of course law enforcement will be criticized and the eyewitnesses,
maybe their testimony won't be contradicting to each other. We'll see.
But to me, it's where was Richard Allen on that day?
And what other proof do they have? And as you said,
(30:25):
I don't think we know everything.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Well, you've been in Delphi a lot, and you've been
there recently for the latest hearings, and you know, one
of the things that just knocks me out is that
Allen has made sixty one incriminating statements sixty one And
you know, I was talking to my sisters one night
(30:48):
about this, and I said, you know what, y'all, if
I'm in jail and y'all know what's being recorded, and
every time y'all come talk to me, I'm confessing and
I'm saying stuff, stop visiting, don't show up anymore, right,
please quit calling me. So, I mean, I just can't
imagine he's told his mama, his wife, guards, salemates. I mean,
(31:12):
he's told anybody that he has access to.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yeah, and the investigator on the stand, I thought he
was one of the highlights of the three day hearing
for me in terms of just the way and you
have experience in this, just in the way he testified.
I found him believable. I found just talking about kind
of what he's done in terms of listening to these
(31:37):
alleged confessions, and he just said, I've been listening. I
believe he said six hundred hours of video and of
the phone calls. On cross examination, they asked, you do
this with every prisoner, and why are you setting them up?
So that was kind of where they went with the
cross examination. But in terms of his testimony, and he
(31:57):
said it was around March that he noticed a turn
with Richard Allen because now he's listening so closely and
so intently that now he knows the nuance in Richard
Allen's voice, if you will, And he noticed to change
around March. And he said in so many words that
he had found God and that his biggest concern was
(32:17):
that he wouldn't go to heaven and wouldn't be able
to be in heaven with his mother and his wife,
and he wanted forgiveness, and he found God. And so
I think, maybe I'm speculating this is based on what
I heard during the testimony, that maybe he decided, okay,
I'm okay with this' and I'm paraphrasing he ruined everything
(32:38):
in this life, that maybe it could be better on
the other side. So I think the confessions just kept
coming and kept coming. And then I remember early on
before we knew it was so many that his wife
ended the call abruptly and spoke to Rosie. I believe,
so I could see where they could say false confession,
(33:00):
maybe once, twice, ten times maybe because they said he
shouldn't have been in that prison. He should have been
in a jail, and it was brutal there, and he
was being treated like a prisoner of war and it
was horrible, and that's why he said those things. So
that's their way to kind of excuse that. But he
also spoke about, according to the investigator, motive. So he
(33:20):
was asked by mcleland, did he discuss motive? He answers yes,
And I'm sitting there going what is it?
Speaker 1 (33:27):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Because we always want to know, Cheryl, I don't think
anything's an adequate answer.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Why?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Why was it sexually motivated?
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Maybe?
Speaker 2 (33:36):
But I guess I want a reason that I'm never
going to get how could someone do this? I want
the answer to that which you never really get right.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
And I will also say, what could they possibly say
that you could accept for killing two little girls? Nothing? Zero?
But what I'm wanting to know has he given any
detail tales that are not already public? That to me
is going to be the biggest thing. Motive is great.
(34:06):
But I want to know does he know something that
only law enforcement knows and the killer.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
And based on the testimony, I would say yes. But
also he was questioned on cross examination did he also
say things that didn't occur? And I believe maybe saying
the girls were shot not necessarily if that came out
of his mouth. So I believe so they there are prisoner.
If you're on suicide watch, there are prisoner, other prisoners
(34:35):
that sit outside. I didn't know this occurred of his cell,
and I believe that one of them said that he
said that to them in terms of a gun or
shooting the girls.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Everybody's got an angle and maybe that person wanted to
be able to have some information to make a deal.
Maybe that's true, maybe it's not true. Again, he's already
an inmate, so take it with a grain of salt.
But again, something that can from Richard Allen own tap
that nobody knew but law enforcement in the killer would
be fantastic at trial. Now one question, I know you've
(35:09):
been there, I know you've sat through everything. Have you
seen his daughter? She has been mia. I do not
blame her. Anything you need to do to take care
of yourself in this situation, but I was just curious
if you had seen her at all.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
I remember seeing a photograph, a picture of Richard Allen
on her wedding day walking her down the aisle. I
don't think it was a lot of years before. I mean,
Livvy were killed, but it's to see the family like that,
if it is Richard Allen, and to wonder how you
can go on living a quote unquote normal life, and
(35:46):
you do wonder how could this happen? And he goes
on living for close to six years. But I do
know that Kathy Allen is there, his mother is there,
and a couple. I look over at them during the
three day hearing and Kathy seems distraught. They're very close
(36:06):
to each other. I remember the latest hearing. I was
just there and they canceled the what was open to
the public and the families. The second part that was canceled.
The deputy came out and said that will not be
happening today. And I was standing near Becky and super
tendic Carter. She said what So. I think they got
everything they needed to get done and didn't feel the
(36:26):
public needed to come in. But I did see Kathy
Allen and Richard Allen's mom sitting together, and I believe
she looked upset about it. And then I saw her
outside of the courthouse talking to Rosie, one of the attorneys.
It's hard to see them. I do not blame the
(36:47):
family of Richard Allen. If it is him, I don't.
I feel sorry for them in a way too, I don't.
There is no evidence that they knew any of this
was taking place. And I know that she had been
with him since I believe, maybe even before high school.
So if that's who you know, and that's who you love,
and your mind doesn't even go there, and maybe when
the second maybe there were thoughts and the second sketch
(37:10):
came out and maybe she thought, oh, that looks a
lot younger. It can't be him. And I think the
human mind and denial is very powerful. It does make
me wonder, As you mentioned, the daughter nowhere to be found.
Never mention either, and.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Forget the sketch. They got a video, They've got his voice.
So yeah, do you think the trial is going to
go October?
Speaker 2 (37:33):
I do, which is it's it's tough to wrap your
brain around considering how many delays there have been, But
I think based on the latest filings, the motion to
compel and what you mentioned about wanting the jurors to
go to the bridge. I believe they're moving forward. That
says to me, trial's coming, This is where they're going.
(37:53):
Jury's selection is on the fourteenth, and the jurors will
be so it will be held in Delphi to make
it easier for the families, but the jury selection will
be elsewhere I believe. Is it fort Wayne, Indiana? And
they'll be well sequestered yep, bust over and it's supposed
(38:16):
to last. I think they're saying a month and it's
Monday through Friday as of now. And do you think
my question to you, Cheryl, that the jurors will be able.
I always have to remind myself not everyone knows everything
that we know, or talks about it like we talk
about it, or thinks about it like we do. They,
of course, being from Indiana, have probably maybe heard about it.
(38:37):
But even a crime kind as you know, there's been
people there who follow cases closely who aren't aware of
all the details. Do you think they can find an
impartial journey?
Speaker 1 (38:50):
I believe in the system. I think jury selection is
going to be key for both sides. I think they're
going to have to figure out who do we want
on this jury, and I'm talking about the prosecution and
the defense. And then once they figure out who they want,
that's who they got to go after and try to,
(39:10):
you know, come up with a group that is even
and ready to do the work, because you know, this
is a lot on somebody to be, you know, plugged
out of their normal life and can't go to work,
and they're not with their children, they're not with their pets,
and they're not with their friends, and you know you're
getting closed to holidays, and you know people are going
(39:32):
to I mean I always tell people the truth at
some point that jury wants to go home.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
That's so true. And I think everyone's learned from the
OJ case. I mean that was a year of being sequestered.
You know, cell phones weren't around back then, but no
teed like specific shows they could watch, and they want
it out and.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
It's a lot. It's a lot to ask of people.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
I believe Judge Gaul will move this along. I'm hoping
and knowing kind of what's at stake here.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
I do too, And again it's a lot to ask
for people, but you know, I've almost always seen as
a group people rise to the occasion and they know
how important this is, and this is you know, this
is their duty, and I think they will absolutely subscribe
to that, no doubt.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
I agree. The defense asked Judge gaul which I was
surprised that she granted this, said, yes, that Baldwin wanted
to do kind of an opening statement, if you will,
before jury selection, to kind of I don't know. It
was a little surprising to me. I haven't heard of that.
I haven't been too many jury selections. I've covered them
from the set. I don't know. It'll be interesting to
(40:38):
see maybe he's getting his theory across and then reading
the jurors, and of course with cameras in the courtroom
there won't be at this trial, but in the past
trial said we, of course don't see that the jurors
were selected. Of course, but you're absolutely right, and I've
heard that from plenty of attorneys that I've interviewed through
the years. Joey Jackson, great friend used to say to me,
(41:00):
he's still on SI and and a lot. He'd say,
Susan trials can be one during jerry selection. Trials are
one and loss during jury selection a lot of the time.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Yeah, I love him, don't you love me too?
Speaker 2 (41:13):
He's excellent in the kindest man you'll ever meet.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
And he smails, good ladies, Susan knows what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
You're right, And you know what, joe you'll laugh at this.
When we were covering Casey Anthony so many, I mean,
they'd fly Joey and he basically was in Atlanta all
the time, and he brought his wife in and she's
so sweet and she's susing her so nice and she said,
they said, oh, are you on Twitter? This is back
in the day, and she says, no, there's people that
love Joey or you know, it was just funny to me,
(41:44):
like she knows the appeal and he's just so. You
know what I love about Joey, how gratefully he is.
And I've learned this about him. I'd say, Joey, we
spent so much time together, so I'd say on the
set and commercial break our fifth hour on TV, and
I'd say, how are you able to stay so positive? Honestly?
No bad moods, Cheryl, I've seen that with you too.
I want the same question for you. I tell you
(42:06):
cover these horrific cases. You see horrific things and you're happy.
And he said, well, Susan, I'm grateful. I two terrific
sons and a wonderful wife. And he was he's being
I said, that's it. It's you always hear, oh, be
grateful for what you have. Be grateful. And that was that.
I learned that from him.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
I'm like, oh my gosh, he's absolutely right, and he's
a wonderful person across the board. When I used to
teach college, he would come and speak to my students.
You know, you have thirty minutes with him, forty five
minutes with him. He will absolutely change your life. He
will change your outlook. He will make you feel like
you can, you know, go to law school and follow
(42:44):
in his footsteps. So I was always just, I mean
to use the word grateful every time he would come,
because you know, I can tell him, you know, yes
you can. You know nothing's impossible. But sometimes you just
hear it different when that person that you know from
TV is telling you.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
My mom would say, well, what is Joey think? She
loves Joey to this day, I mean loves him.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
You can't not.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
And he and he'd say, Susan, I'm preparing for a
big trial. And he'd come back and I said, you
win He said I did win. Yeah, and never bragging,
just saying and you know what matters.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
True.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
First of all, he's smart, of course, but likeability to
believeability and under without being slick. You can be a
defense attorney. Everyone has the right to one and not
be disliked. I mean clearly, but a lot of people
there's a consensus, Oh they're all defensive. No, that's not true.
He's defending someone who needs to be defended, and he
(43:45):
can argue a case well with the jury, meaning without
turning them off and quickly here I'm going off at
a tangent. But with Jody Arius, I felt like even
the prosecutor is too aggressive, So it's almost lawyering is
important too, of course jury selection.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
But.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
What do you think of the lawyer? Do you believe them?
And that can go with the prosecution too. That's what
we saw I saw with Jody Arius.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
Yeah, no, that's an excellent point. Yep. You got to
believe what they're selling and that likability that's just god given.
You either have it or you don't.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Absolutely, and if you try to fake it. It's transparent.
You could see through it.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
That's right. Well, I appreciate you. I appreciate the update,
and I know you're going to be there in person
in October, and so we are going to follow you
on all of your platforms, and I just appreciate everything
you're doing for the family because I know what it
means on both sides.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
Well, I appreciate you so much. You have such a
kind way, a soothing way of covering horrible cases. I
know that you do, and I know how much Kelsey
and Becky and Mike and everyone loves you as a
person and how much you really helped Kelsey in the
healing process. So thank you, and it's always great to be.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
I appreciate you saying that. And y'all, I'm on end
Zone seven the way that I always do with a quote.
I do have faith in the system. I believe they
can find jurors who will look at the evidence. I
don't think we know all the evidence, but I think
the jury will be able to look at it and
make a decision. Susan Hendrix on Crime Stories with Nancy Grass.
(45:24):
I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.
Y'all tonight we're going to get an update on Delphi
and those of you that may not know this case,
I'm just going to briefly, and I mean briefly because
there's a lot over the last seven years. But it
was February thirteenth, twenty seventeen, when thirteen year old Abby
(00:30):
Williams and fourteen year old Libby Jerman they had a
day off of school and they just wanted to go
to the high Bridge and hang out and take pictures
and just do what friends do hang out. Libby's sister,
who then was seventeen, Kelsey, dropped them off right at
(00:50):
the head of the trail, waved by to them, reminded them, hey,
Dad's going to pick y'all up around three o'clock. When
Dad gets there, he cannot find them anywhere. He starts
calling other family members. Have they walked home? Did they
get a ride? Has anybody seen them? Nobody had seen them.
(01:11):
The family all comes to the high Bridge, They take
different trails looking for them. They ask people that are
walking around, have you seen two girls together? Nothing? Not
a sight of them anywhere. The search goes on through
the night, even though the sheriff tried to call it
off because he thought it was too dangerous for people
to be out there in the dark. Friends and family
(01:31):
would not leave. In less than twenty four hours, their
bodies were found north of Deer Creek. Libby heroically had
taken a video of a man that she captured on
the high Bridge, a video so we know what he
looks like. That video also captured his voice. A suspect
(01:55):
was arrested October of twenty twenty two. So now I'm
going to bring in our friend, Susan Hendrix. Y'all know her.
She literally wrote the book it's called Down the Hill,
My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. She worked
for CNN HLN as an anchor. She's an investigative reporter,
(02:18):
she's a podcaster, and most importantly to me, she is
part of my Zone seven. Susan, thank you for being
with us tonight, Charlol.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
It's so good to be on with you. And when
you were recapping for those who aren't as familiar with
the story, that day is etched in our minds for
those who do know it, And as you were talking
about Libby's dad, the girls weren't nowhere to be found.
He was there to pick them up. I could just
wonder did the person that did this hear the voice
(02:49):
of Libby's dad who said he called down to them
and couldn't find the girls. It's just chilling to think
of that day so many years ago.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Now that's a horrific scene. And you know what, Susan,
I've never heard anybody ask that possibly the killer could
have still been close enough to hear her dad call her.
And you know, as a parent, I mean, you've got children.
I've got children, and there's always a plan like oh,
can I please go here? Can I please go there?
(03:17):
And it's like okay, but you know, I'm going to
be there at three o'clock, six o'clock, nine o'clock, whatever
it is, to pick you up. And if they're not
right outside, at first, you know, you're like, well, they're teenagers.
They're going to push that a little bit, and maybe
they're going to be ten minutes late, fifteen minutes late.
But then you start to get concerned. If you don't
(03:39):
see them and they're not answering their phone, it doesn't
take long to be in a full panic, even though
they may just be talking to friends and not even
realize twenty minutes has passed.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Right, Especially at that age thirteen and fourteen, you could
lose track of time. And so at first there really
wasn't that much of a concern. I know that Derek
called Backy and said to be heard from the girls,
and she said no. And then slowly but surely, the
concerns started to build. And they never thought they would
(04:13):
hear that the girls were murdered. I mean, it didn't
even cross their mind at that particular time. They thought
maybe the girls were hurt because Cheryl, as you know,
that bridge is treacherous, even stepped on her walk near
So that's where their mind went initially, could someone fallen?
Did they both fall and it was getting colder as
the night went on. Never ever did they think they
(04:33):
would discover the girl's bodies the next day.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
And you know that's the thing. You're not talking about
New York City, You're not talking about Chicago. You're talking
about Delphi, Indiana, that has never had a child murder.
That wasn't somebody in the family. Of course, it wouldn't
have crossed their mind. It's never happened. It's something that
big cities maybe deal with, but Delphi in the middle
(04:59):
of the day, in the middle of the day, in
broad daylight, in a place where other people were around.
Other people were birdwatching and hiking and riding bikes and
just enjoying the beautiful warm weather because it was unseasonably warm.
It had snowed previously, but on that day it was
pretty warm.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Absolutely, and that you bring that up, Cheryl that day,
and that of course will be the focus. What I believe,
based on new filings, the focus now of the defense
is the timeline, not what did they do, when did
they do it, and who was around to see it,
and what did they tell authorities and does it all
(05:42):
line up and make sense?
Speaker 1 (05:44):
And you know, the timeline, that's your money tree as
an investigator. And this one, Kelsey drops them off a
little after one o'clock. They're supposed to be picked up
by three. To me, that's a tide window for the
location you're talking about. They weren't transported in a vehicle.
(06:05):
They were walked what a half a mile from the bridge,
So that's going to take a little bit of time,
right because it's uphill about a half a mile to
get to where the actual killing site was. So from
the bridge, when they're kidnapped to where they're walked. That
eats into a little bit of time the time they're
(06:27):
on the bridge, where again, I personally believe something happened
overtly before she started filming. That's what caused her to film.
I think, so again, you're talking about twenty minutes here,
twenty minutes there. Well, an hour's already gone of just
the setup and then the hike, So you don't you're
(06:49):
not talking about a long period of time. I don't think.
I think this was very fast with.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Abby on the bridge and the snapshot picture that was
sent by Libby, so that is a definite time, and
it's what happened soon after that photo was taken of
Abby walking on the bridge, And what.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Was the time of that snatjat That's what.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
I was looking for. Was it too o nine? I
believe it was to two.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
O nine sticks out in my mind, but I didn't
want to say it because I wasn't sure if that
was something else.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
I believe it was two nine. I did hear Abby's
mom say through various interviews before that, she said that
that day of course sticks out, but the details. She
said that certain people were fixated on Abby's sweater. What
was she wearing? People who were critical of it, no
matter what family was saying, what, oh, they're off by
(07:46):
a minute.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Or was she wearing a.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Sweater or was it a jacket? And it stood out
to me when Anna said, I don't know what jacket,
I don't know what sweater and they said it was
my sweater, but it was her sweater, and saying that
the minutia of that doesn't stand out because you're in shock.
It's where's my daughter? I cannot believe this happened to
her rather than the exact time. But we do have
(08:08):
the exact time again based on that particular photo. Yes
it was two nine, so that stands out. But if
I believe that the timeline is off, let's say, depending
on the witnesses. And you know, Cheryl more than most
that eyewitnesses cannot only be off on a specific time.
Maybe they were there unless their cell phone was on,
(08:29):
and they can document that, but also what they see.
And you and I both know the sketches will be
a huge part for this defense. At the latest here
and where I was, I remember the two attorneys walking in.
It was Baldwin and Rosie. Baldwin had the huge, giant
size sketches, side by side sketches, and how different they look.
(08:52):
And I believe that that will be part of the defense, saying, Okay,
did the eyewitness see this particular person that looks very
young the sketch? Again, it's not a photograph or this sketch?
Which was it? And was it both? And this is
worth repeating. Becky always said, I believe that it was
based on the person's age, on what they saw and
(09:15):
what they described to the sketch artist, meaning if you're older,
you may think the person looks younger. If you're very young,
you may think the person looks older. And I think
if he kind of put them together in front of
each other, which the superintendent has said that they can
have similar features. But I believe that that will be
the focus.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
I think that's brilliant because the older I get, the
younger certain people look.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
To me. I was just watching an NFL game and
I'm saying, wait, now, the coaches look.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Young at the point, right, Okay, Well, I recently went
to a police academy graduation and I'm like, these are babies, Like,
why are we giving them guns? Are you out of
your mind? Because they looked so young. That's what we
looked like back in college. We forget it's so pitiful.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
What Becky said is correct, but I'm assuming that they'll
be poking holes in that. There is a motion to
compel that was filed, and this was filed within the
timeline of saying we want the jurors to go visit
the crime scene, to go to the bridge, to kind
of walk the path that Abby and Levy walked. And
(10:28):
the motion to compel has to do with law enforcement
being deposed and specific answers that they did not answer
based on the advice of the prosecutor McCleland. So they
want the judge judge goal to make them answer a
specific question. And it stood out to me here it said,
(10:49):
is the state's timeline, and I'm reading from the motion
to compel, is the state's timeline and theory of the
case as it relates to Richard Allen fatally lawed, meaning
if they are off by a specific time or and
it brings up the witnesses. It says, if neither one
witness nor the other witness observed Richard Allen on February thirteenth,
(11:13):
twenty seventeen, is the State's timeline and theory of the
case as it relates to Richard Allen fatally flawed. So
if anything's off, I would assume that that's where they're going,
that this couldn't have been because where was Richard Allen.
They also want the jurors to visit where Richard Allen
allegedly parked in front of the old Child Protective Services
(11:36):
building allegedly between one thirty and four. So I think
going back to the bridge sharel relates also to the timeline.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
The timeline is critical, there's no question about it, between witnesses,
between you know, items that were found. Her telephone, I mean,
think about it. Her cell phone is a money tree
because she did not record just guys down the hill.
We all know that there's more that's real time too.
(12:10):
So from the snapchat at two nine to the time
of the video, those are locked, we know that happen.
We also know by three o'clock nobody's hearing them. No,
they're nobody's screaming, nobody's running, nobody's calling on their phones. Again,
this was a very fast deal. And y'all here's the reality.
(12:35):
Most children that are going to be murdered or murdered
in the first three hours. It's not a long drawn
out thing. If that's the result the perpetrator wants, it's
going to be fast. Your average rate lasts two minutes.
So again, even if they're both sexually assaulted more than once,
you're not even talking about a half hour. It's not
(12:56):
what people think. I'm one of those people, and I
get a lot of flight when I say this, but
I'm gonna say it again. I believe the jury should
see the scene absolutely, without question. It's important even if
the scene has quote changed, all of it hadn't, and
they will be able to infer. Okay, the bridge has
(13:20):
been repaired some Now we can't walk on it. You
can still see how high it is. You can still
see how narrow it is. You can see there's no railing. Right,
you can see the creek from there, and you can
ascertain yourself. Hey, if I'm standing here, you can't watch
(13:40):
fish from here. That doesn't make any sense, Cheryl.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
As you know, only half of it's repaired, so with
the railings. I haven't been there since it's been repaired,
but from the images I've seen, and then it stops
because then it's on private property. So it almost cuts
off to the edge. You can walk off and see
the dilapidated bridge, so you can see what it used
to look like, almost like a before and after. If
(14:05):
there's ever a scene, ever a scene that should be
seen by jurors, that's it, because I'll tell you, and
I heard from Paul Hols who said the same thing.
So did you eryl your thoughts about the crime and
your opinion or if you had one going in completely
changes once you see that bridge. It changes everything. It
(14:26):
did for me because I saw Richard Allen, or not
Richard Allen. I saw the man on the bridge. We
didn't know who it was yet allegedly now they believe
it was Richard Allen was walking and I thought at
the time when that was released, they thought, we'd like
to spe early on, we'd like to speak to this
person on the bridge. He could be a witness. And
just the hands in the pocket and the lookdown. I
(14:47):
didn't think the bridge would be that high until I
saw in person and listen.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
That's why I believe something overtly happened. And I have
said this from day one of the video or the photograph,
but I know there's a video seen it but I
know it exists. That photo. If you look at it,
like you said, his hands are in his pockets and
it almost looks like he's to the far right, which
(15:11):
to me is signifies he's turning around, which is why
she's videotaping. So I think he passed them, said or
did something, and then when he's turning around, she's capturing
him already. That's how just awful. Whatever he did alerted
her to the point that Libby pulled out her phone
(15:34):
and videotaped that man.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Absolutely, and I remember reading one of the witness statements
saying that he just one of them thought he seemed creepier,
didn't smile, and I'm paraphrasing here, but there was I
would assume that there was some sort of that Libby
and Mike has said this plenty of times. I think
(15:56):
she was plannying coming home and saying, look, Grandpa, this
creepy guy in the bridge. So I think that's exactly
what exactly occurred on that bridge. But you're right, she
knew to start hitting record, and in the video when
you see kind of the walk, I know they only
released kind of a step and a half, so it's
a little odd. And I remember when Superintendent Doug Carter said,
(16:19):
look at his gate. This was before at the press
conference before they released that short video of the walk.
Keep in mind of where he's walking, but watch the gate.
But keep in mind this is a dilapordated bridge with
big gaps in between, so this isn't a stroll on
a sidewalk. But take a look and do you recognize anything.
And you kind of almost see the knee turn a
(16:41):
little bit. So I think you're absolutely right that Libby
hit record and he turned around. And there's been speculation
on if in fact it was again innocent. He'll proven
guilty of Richard Allen. Was this a plan for having Libby?
I believe based on what I've read, and I'm this
(17:01):
is just a guest. I don't know exactly what happened,
his thoughts beforehand. Maybe the evidence will show that. I
believe that he planned to do something that day and
Abby and Libby were there. I don't believe it was
the plan to do that to Abby and Libby. But
I think with the first set of girls who walked by,
there were four, three were listed because one was a
(17:24):
minor at the time. Four girls, and maybe he thought
four is too many. Then there was one woman, older woman,
turned around past Abby and Libby. According to her statement,
upcome Abby and Libby to the bridge. And did he
say in his mind maybe he had been down at
the bridge several times, he lived nearby. Maybe he had
been planning this four years. We don't know, and maybe
(17:46):
in his mind he thought, now's the time.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Well, he certainly picked the right day and he went
murder ready. He had everything he needed to accomplish what
he did.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
The kids had off from school. Since we haven't heard
about the alibi. Was he off of CVSDY of off
on Mondays? Did he work the weekends? Was got the
perfect day for him? Knowing that girls would be down there, Kitts.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
It's the perfect place. And that bridge, it does it
for you. They can't jump off of it right, and
if you brandish your weapon, you're going to be able
to control them fairly easily.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
It feels like a trap when you see it.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
It's, oh, it's absolutely it's the greatest trap you've ever seen,
because as soon as he turns around, they only have
one direction to go, and that's the direction he wants
them to go in because he's already got that, you know,
that location, and had things I believe there again, ready
to fulfill whatever it was he did there.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
And maybe he said to them, follow me and it'll
be okay, or I'm not sure.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
What he said, but but you can hear him given
direction down the hill. Yep, he's telling them. And another thing.
And we've all talked about this, but it's worth mentioning again.
He is so controlled. He's almost quiet guys down the
hill like he's on autopilot. He knows what's going to happen.
(19:12):
They're probably trying just to hey, let's do what he
says so he won't hurt us. A lot of people believe.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
That, Oh yeah, because I've been asked that, Cheryl, and
you know the answer. But it seems like a very
easy answer to me. I'm thirteen. My sister's fourteen were
a year apart. Let's say we're down there and I
see a gun, we're following him. It's not like we're
in our twenties or even then. Maybe I would follow him.
I don't know, but a gun would scare me enough
(19:39):
that I would comply.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
And here's the important thing for the jury. They would
be able to see the trails, see the bridge, see
where the crime scene was. The distance I think is
really important. And then where a car was parked and
that proximity, So then from the cemetery to the car
as the crow flies, was this again scouted out and
(20:05):
pre planned? It would sure make me think.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
That I'm wondering if they think that because of the
time and that we saw that snapchat picture of Abby
on the bridge, is the defense going to go in
this direction and say there's not enough time for Richard
Allen to have walked down the hill murder two girls
(20:30):
and then walk back up to where he was allegedly
spotted muddy and bloody. And I think, Cheryl, that they're
pivoting away based on the ruling by Judge gall from
the third party from the odist ritualistic sacrifice to now,
it doesn't make sense. These are contradicting each other in
terms of witnesses and the timeline doesn't fit. So I
(20:52):
see that's kind of where they'll go during the trial.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Quite possibly, you know, but again we don't know for
sure because the car didn't move to almost four o'clock,
so he had to me plenty of time from two
nine to four o'clock plenty of time.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
That's true because if you think where he was walking to,
what did he do following that? Who was home? Was
his if it was Richard Allen, was his wife home?
Where was the location of anyone that would know him?
Were they in his vicinity? And what was he doing
before that car moved?
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Anything that he ever said at work, anything that he
ever said to his wife's friends, casual acquaintances, like maybe neighbors,
even everybody's going to focus on that and they would
call and they would say, hey, he mentioned this. He
said that he was fixated on this. He talked about
(21:49):
this all the time, just like the neighbor that called
and said, hey, I saw him burning a bunch of
stuff after the police visited him the first time. I
think there's other people that have come forward that we
don't know anything about.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
And that's an excellent point that we don't know everything clearly.
I mean, you have to do in terms of the
prosecution in discovery, you share that with the defense in
vice versa, and share what you have before trial. But absolutely,
I don't believe the public it's been released in terms
of what we know and what we'll hear at trial.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
You and I have been to that bridge more than
one time, and I will tell you again, I was stunned.
On the trail from where we parked our car to
the bridge. I was stunned. There were homes.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Oh so it was hot.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
It's just not something right, that's not something I thought.
So again, I think that's important for the jury. They
need to be able to see that. They need to
be able to see what's north, south, east and west
of that bridge. They need to see where he could
have come, where he could have exited. You know, does
it make the most sense he would have parked a
(22:55):
car here and why all of those things seem like
the killer scouted this area and they need to be
able to come to that conclusion on their own. But
there's only one way to do it. Like you said,
I could describe that bridge to people all day long,
but when you're standing there. My sister Charlane couldn't wait
(23:19):
to get on that bridge and walk across it. I'm like, well,
you can tell me what it looks like, because it
just doesn't look safe in any way. And it was
much higher than I thought, and there were boards missing,
there were other boards that were rotted, and I'm like, yeah,
this is a dangerous bridge to traverse in any way,
(23:43):
much less with your hands in your pocket. It takes
your breath.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Away when you see it, maybe because we know what
happened there, but when I walked up to it, and
I think, even if nothing happened there and I walked
up to that bridge, I would say, that's what I said.
I was with Kelsey the first time I walked there.
I know you were there with Kelsey. This was twenty nineteen,
and I went and it really just took my breath
(24:06):
away because of how massive it is, sixty three feet high.
You could say that all day. That sounds hip, but
when you see it in person, and I'm scared of heights.
And two photojournalists were with us from CNN and they
had drones and they were, you know, they're just so
skilled at what they do, great friends, and so they said,
(24:27):
come on, Susan, can you just I said, I'm scared
of heights. I said, well, just take a couple steps
out and just talk about what you're going to say
in a stand up as it's called. And I literally
couldn't walk, Cheryl, not two feet, not a foot. I
couldn't step on there no.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
I get it. And you know how older sisters can be.
Charlene was like, come on, come on, and she said,
you're not scared of hide. She was able to walk
on it, oh honey, like it was nothing.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
See that's brave.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
And she was like, you're not afraid of hides. And
I said, I'm not afraid of hides, I'm afraid of rickity.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
I mean, well, I will say because I do mention
this when I wrote about it, because I think I
was so drawn to this case for so many reasons.
Of course the family, but immediately when I saw the
picture of Abby, I thought of my sister and I.
We used to go, we called it down the brook
behind my house in New Jersey, and there was these
(25:22):
sewer pipes, massive pipes. I'd say that there's pipe one
and pipe two, and we meet each other. We were like,
I'm not kidding ten eleven, twelve thirteen. We were in
the back of our house all the time on these
pipes with slimy water and didn't care. And so the
second pipe, I'd say was about twenty feet up. I
wouldn't walk on that one, but the lower one pipe
(25:44):
one was about fifteen feet and I got so used
to it, I'd stroll across it. So I think when
you're young, when you're that age, you don't have any fear.
I didn't. This came later, the fear of pipes. But
so I think that I know that Libby had been
on there, how many times Abby had. They took their time,
but they were able to do that, and those who
(26:05):
aren't afraid of fights. But with Richard Allen, just seeing
that and seeing the video and him strolling, you would
have thought it was two feet up or just a sidewalk.
He was strolling.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
As far as the jury visiting, I'm for it. They
got to be able to walk it, hear it, see it,
smell it. They just do. They've got to know the
area and they've got to say to themselves, what does
this scene tell me now? The other thing that has happened.
(26:35):
They said they can't mention the oldinizzle. I think that's
the right call too.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
I do too, And I was there at the hearing.
I mean, the judge hadn't made the ruling yet, but
when this was discussed, and when I saw the judges
ruling in writing, it did say you can bring this
up if you can prove that they were there. Now,
mind you, there were witnesses called through the stand. It
(27:02):
was three days, twelve hour days, three days. It felt
like a mini trial, which it really essentially was in
terms of what can be admissible and what's not. But
they would call a witness to the stand and you
would think, Okay, was he there? That's weird to say
on Facebook. Okay, you have me here. This person said
(27:24):
to one of the investigators and I'm paraphrasing, if my
spit is found at the scene, am I in trouble?
That was Elvis Field? Well, of course that's going to
raise eyebrows. I mean, why wouldn't it. But nothing, Then
they bring someone else on the stand, another investigator. He said, look,
nothing we could do place them there. There were alibis
(27:45):
that they had. I believe it was Brad Holder who
clocked into work and then the gym, and with Elvis Fields,
I believe he was at home. But nothing could ever
put them at the scene. Nothing physically that they were
able to find to connect them there. But the judge
did say, if there is evidence that you could put
(28:05):
them at the scene, then of course you can bring
them in. So there was kind of a reaction to
that by some saying this is not fair. How could
she do this? The defense doesn't have a defense, Well
they do if they can prove that. You just can't
pick a name out of a hat and put them
at the crime scene and allege that they did it,
or say that they did it without evidence. And I
(28:26):
believe that they wanted to release that one hundred and
thirty six page memorandum disguised as a Frank's hearing to
get this out because there is a gag order and
they weren't allowed to say all this.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
So of course.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Myself included all the news organizations talked about this document.
What was in it? Then it got the word out?
Could it have been ritualistic? Could it have been odness?
Now everyone's open to saying maybe it was. No one's
tied to any particular suspect. And I always repeat this
when I'm challenged about it. Why would the families want
(29:00):
someone who's not guilty in custody and have a killer
still out there. It doesn't make sense. It just doesn't.
So I think that really kind of hurt them releasing that,
because if they were able to prove that or brought
maybe Elvis Field or Brad holder on the stand, it said,
and question them about that day, where they were and
what was found. But now I think that's not allowed,
(29:22):
of course, without the evidence. Now I believe they're pivoting
to the timeline and poking holes in the investigation. And
you know, Cheryl, that investigation. I mean, it was almost
six years before someone was arrested, and even the family
was frustrated, and law enforcement themselves. Doug Carter said to
me several times, I've never had a case where we've
(29:43):
had this much evidence without someone in custody. He would say,
blame me, I understand. Just a wonderful man, he'd say,
I understand. So he understood the frustration, but he said,
there's certain things we can't say and won't say. Imagine
if they said there was an unspot bullet and let's
say it is Richard Allen and then he got rid
(30:04):
of the gun. So I understand that. But I believe
that of course law enforcement will be criticized and the eyewitnesses,
maybe their testimony won't be contradicting to each other. We'll see.
But to me, it's where was Richard Allen on that day?
And what other proof do they have? And as you said,
(30:25):
I don't think we know everything.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Well, you've been in Delphi a lot, and you've been
there recently for the latest hearings, and you know, one
of the things that just knocks me out is that
Allen has made sixty one incriminating statements sixty one And
you know, I was talking to my sisters one night
(30:48):
about this, and I said, you know what, y'all, if
I'm in jail and y'all know what's being recorded, and
every time y'all come talk to me, I'm confessing and
I'm saying stuff, stop visiting, don't show up anymore, right,
please quit calling me. So, I mean, I just can't
imagine he's told his mama, his wife, guards, salemates. I mean,
(31:12):
he's told anybody that he has access to.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yeah, and the investigator on the stand, I thought he
was one of the highlights of the three day hearing
for me in terms of just the way and you
have experience in this, just in the way he testified.
I found him believable. I found just talking about kind
of what he's done in terms of listening to these
(31:37):
alleged confessions, and he just said, I've been listening. I
believe he said six hundred hours of video and of
the phone calls. On cross examination, they asked, you do
this with every prisoner, and why are you setting them up?
So that was kind of where they went with the
cross examination. But in terms of his testimony, and he
(31:57):
said it was around March that he noticed a turn
with Richard Allen because now he's listening so closely and
so intently that now he knows the nuance in Richard
Allen's voice, if you will, And he noticed to change
around March. And he said in so many words that
he had found God and that his biggest concern was
(32:17):
that he wouldn't go to heaven and wouldn't be able
to be in heaven with his mother and his wife,
and he wanted forgiveness, and he found God. And so
I think, maybe I'm speculating this is based on what
I heard during the testimony, that maybe he decided, okay,
I'm okay with this' and I'm paraphrasing he ruined everything
(32:38):
in this life, that maybe it could be better on
the other side. So I think the confessions just kept
coming and kept coming. And then I remember early on
before we knew it was so many that his wife
ended the call abruptly and spoke to Rosie. I believe,
so I could see where they could say false confession,
(33:00):
maybe once, twice, ten times maybe because they said he
shouldn't have been in that prison. He should have been
in a jail, and it was brutal there, and he
was being treated like a prisoner of war and it
was horrible, and that's why he said those things. So
that's their way to kind of excuse that. But he
also spoke about, according to the investigator, motive. So he
(33:20):
was asked by mcleland, did he discuss motive? He answers yes,
And I'm sitting there going what is it?
Speaker 1 (33:27):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Because we always want to know, Cheryl, I don't think
anything's an adequate answer.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Why?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Why was it sexually motivated?
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Maybe?
Speaker 2 (33:36):
But I guess I want a reason that I'm never
going to get how could someone do this? I want
the answer to that which you never really get right.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
And I will also say, what could they possibly say
that you could accept for killing two little girls? Nothing? Zero?
But what I'm wanting to know has he given any
detail tales that are not already public? That to me
is going to be the biggest thing. Motive is great.
(34:06):
But I want to know does he know something that
only law enforcement knows and the killer.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
And based on the testimony, I would say yes. But
also he was questioned on cross examination did he also
say things that didn't occur? And I believe maybe saying
the girls were shot not necessarily if that came out
of his mouth. So I believe so they there are prisoner.
If you're on suicide watch, there are prisoner, other prisoners
(34:35):
that sit outside. I didn't know this occurred of his cell,
and I believe that one of them said that he
said that to them in terms of a gun or
shooting the girls.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Everybody's got an angle and maybe that person wanted to
be able to have some information to make a deal.
Maybe that's true, maybe it's not true. Again, he's already
an inmate, so take it with a grain of salt.
But again, something that can from Richard Allen own tap
that nobody knew but law enforcement in the killer would
be fantastic at trial. Now one question, I know you've
(35:09):
been there, I know you've sat through everything. Have you
seen his daughter? She has been mia. I do not
blame her. Anything you need to do to take care
of yourself in this situation, but I was just curious
if you had seen her at all.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
I remember seeing a photograph, a picture of Richard Allen
on her wedding day walking her down the aisle. I
don't think it was a lot of years before. I mean,
Livvy were killed, but it's to see the family like that,
if it is Richard Allen, and to wonder how you
can go on living a quote unquote normal life, and
(35:46):
you do wonder how could this happen? And he goes
on living for close to six years. But I do
know that Kathy Allen is there, his mother is there,
and a couple. I look over at them during the
three day hearing and Kathy seems distraught. They're very close
(36:06):
to each other. I remember the latest hearing. I was
just there and they canceled the what was open to
the public and the families. The second part that was canceled.
The deputy came out and said that will not be
happening today. And I was standing near Becky and super
tendic Carter. She said what So. I think they got
everything they needed to get done and didn't feel the
(36:26):
public needed to come in. But I did see Kathy
Allen and Richard Allen's mom sitting together, and I believe
she looked upset about it. And then I saw her
outside of the courthouse talking to Rosie, one of the attorneys.
It's hard to see them. I do not blame the
(36:47):
family of Richard Allen. If it is him, I don't.
I feel sorry for them in a way too, I don't.
There is no evidence that they knew any of this
was taking place. And I know that she had been
with him since I believe, maybe even before high school.
So if that's who you know, and that's who you love,
and your mind doesn't even go there, and maybe when
the second maybe there were thoughts and the second sketch
(37:10):
came out and maybe she thought, oh, that looks a
lot younger. It can't be him. And I think the
human mind and denial is very powerful. It does make
me wonder, As you mentioned, the daughter nowhere to be found.
Never mention either, and.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Forget the sketch. They got a video, They've got his voice.
So yeah, do you think the trial is going to
go October?
Speaker 2 (37:33):
I do, which is it's it's tough to wrap your
brain around considering how many delays there have been, But
I think based on the latest filings, the motion to
compel and what you mentioned about wanting the jurors to
go to the bridge. I believe they're moving forward. That
says to me, trial's coming, This is where they're going.
(37:53):
Jury's selection is on the fourteenth, and the jurors will
be so it will be held in Delphi to make
it easier for the families, but the jury selection will
be elsewhere I believe. Is it fort Wayne, Indiana? And
they'll be well sequestered yep, bust over and it's supposed
(38:16):
to last. I think they're saying a month and it's
Monday through Friday as of now. And do you think
my question to you, Cheryl, that the jurors will be able.
I always have to remind myself not everyone knows everything
that we know, or talks about it like we talk
about it, or thinks about it like we do. They,
of course, being from Indiana, have probably maybe heard about it.
(38:37):
But even a crime kind as you know, there's been
people there who follow cases closely who aren't aware of
all the details. Do you think they can find an
impartial journey?
Speaker 1 (38:50):
I believe in the system. I think jury selection is
going to be key for both sides. I think they're
going to have to figure out who do we want
on this jury, and I'm talking about the prosecution and
the defense. And then once they figure out who they want,
that's who they got to go after and try to,
(39:10):
you know, come up with a group that is even
and ready to do the work, because you know, this
is a lot on somebody to be, you know, plugged
out of their normal life and can't go to work,
and they're not with their children, they're not with their pets,
and they're not with their friends, and you know you're
getting closed to holidays, and you know people are going
(39:32):
to I mean I always tell people the truth at
some point that jury wants to go home.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
That's so true. And I think everyone's learned from the
OJ case. I mean that was a year of being sequestered.
You know, cell phones weren't around back then, but no
teed like specific shows they could watch, and they want
it out and.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
It's a lot. It's a lot to ask of people.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
I believe Judge Gaul will move this along. I'm hoping
and knowing kind of what's at stake here.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
I do too, And again it's a lot to ask
for people, but you know, I've almost always seen as
a group people rise to the occasion and they know
how important this is, and this is you know, this
is their duty, and I think they will absolutely subscribe
to that, no doubt.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
I agree. The defense asked Judge gaul which I was
surprised that she granted this, said, yes, that Baldwin wanted
to do kind of an opening statement, if you will,
before jury selection, to kind of I don't know. It
was a little surprising to me. I haven't heard of that.
I haven't been too many jury selections. I've covered them
from the set. I don't know. It'll be interesting to
(40:38):
see maybe he's getting his theory across and then reading
the jurors, and of course with cameras in the courtroom
there won't be at this trial, but in the past
trial said we, of course don't see that the jurors
were selected. Of course, but you're absolutely right, and I've
heard that from plenty of attorneys that I've interviewed through
the years. Joey Jackson, great friend used to say to me,
(41:00):
he's still on SI and and a lot. He'd say,
Susan trials can be one during jerry selection. Trials are
one and loss during jury selection a lot of the time.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Yeah, I love him, don't you love me too?
Speaker 2 (41:13):
He's excellent in the kindest man you'll ever meet.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
And he smails, good ladies, Susan knows what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
You're right, And you know what, joe you'll laugh at this.
When we were covering Casey Anthony so many, I mean,
they'd fly Joey and he basically was in Atlanta all
the time, and he brought his wife in and she's
so sweet and she's susing her so nice and she said,
they said, oh, are you on Twitter? This is back
in the day, and she says, no, there's people that
love Joey or you know, it was just funny to me,
(41:44):
like she knows the appeal and he's just so. You
know what I love about Joey, how gratefully he is.
And I've learned this about him. I'd say, Joey, we
spent so much time together, so I'd say on the
set and commercial break our fifth hour on TV, and
I'd say, how are you able to stay so positive? Honestly?
No bad moods, Cheryl, I've seen that with you too.
I want the same question for you. I tell you
(42:06):
cover these horrific cases. You see horrific things and you're happy.
And he said, well, Susan, I'm grateful. I two terrific
sons and a wonderful wife. And he was he's being
I said, that's it. It's you always hear, oh, be
grateful for what you have. Be grateful. And that was that.
I learned that from him.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
I'm like, oh my gosh, he's absolutely right, and he's
a wonderful person across the board. When I used to
teach college, he would come and speak to my students.
You know, you have thirty minutes with him, forty five
minutes with him. He will absolutely change your life. He
will change your outlook. He will make you feel like
you can, you know, go to law school and follow
(42:44):
in his footsteps. So I was always just, I mean
to use the word grateful every time he would come,
because you know, I can tell him, you know, yes
you can. You know nothing's impossible. But sometimes you just
hear it different when that person that you know from
TV is telling you.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
My mom would say, well, what is Joey think? She
loves Joey to this day, I mean loves him.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
You can't not.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
And he and he'd say, Susan, I'm preparing for a
big trial. And he'd come back and I said, you
win He said I did win. Yeah, and never bragging,
just saying and you know what matters.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
True.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
First of all, he's smart, of course, but likeability to
believeability and under without being slick. You can be a
defense attorney. Everyone has the right to one and not
be disliked. I mean clearly, but a lot of people
there's a consensus, Oh they're all defensive. No, that's not true.
He's defending someone who needs to be defended, and he
(43:45):
can argue a case well with the jury, meaning without
turning them off and quickly here I'm going off at
a tangent. But with Jody Arius, I felt like even
the prosecutor is too aggressive, So it's almost lawyering is
important too, of course jury selection.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
But.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
What do you think of the lawyer? Do you believe them?
And that can go with the prosecution too. That's what
we saw I saw with Jody Arius.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
Yeah, no, that's an excellent point. Yep. You got to
believe what they're selling and that likability that's just god given.
You either have it or you don't.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Absolutely, and if you try to fake it. It's transparent.
You could see through it.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
That's right. Well, I appreciate you. I appreciate the update,
and I know you're going to be there in person
in October, and so we are going to follow you
on all of your platforms, and I just appreciate everything
you're doing for the family because I know what it
means on both sides.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
Well, I appreciate you so much. You have such a
kind way, a soothing way of covering horrible cases. I
know that you do, and I know how much Kelsey
and Becky and Mike and everyone loves you as a
person and how much you really helped Kelsey in the
healing process. So thank you, and it's always great to be.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
I appreciate you saying that. And y'all, I'm on end
Zone seven the way that I always do with a quote.
I do have faith in the system. I believe they
can find jurors who will look at the evidence. I
don't think we know all the evidence, but I think
the jury will be able to look at it and
make a decision. Susan Hendrix on Crime Stories with Nancy Grass.
(45:24):
I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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