August 23, 2023 • 37 mins
On February 14, 2017, Abigail Williams and Liberty German are discovered near the Monon High Bridge Trail, part of the Delphi Historic Trails in Delphi, Indiana.
In this episode of Zone 7, Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum, talks with guest Barbara MacDonald and dives into the chilling case of Liberty German and Abigail Williams, two young girls found murdered in Delphi, Indiana.
The episode explores the hidden trails, the significance of the bridge, and the mysterious parked car that may hold the key to the case. MacDonald's extensive experience and empathy for the victims add depth to the discussion, while McCollum's insights into the investigation process provide a unique perspective.
Show Notes:
- [0:00] Welcome back to Zone 7 with Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum.
- [1:05] Sheryl gives a timeline of events in the case of Liberty German and Abigail Williams
- [2:52] Sheryl introduces guest, Barbara MacDonald to the listeners
- [2:55] Check out Down the Hill Podcast HERE
- [7:00] The emphasis on a fair trial for Richard Allen underscores the importance of due process
- [8:36] Barbara points out inconsistencies in the case, building anticipation for the 2024 trial
- [10:30] Question: Barbara, you got to spend six weeks, boots on the ground. Could you tell us about that?
- [12:34] Barbara gives a description of the trail area and paints a vivid picture of the community's loss
- [15:30] Reflection on the global impact of the crime, highlighting the Snapchat evidence calling this case “the Snapchat killing”
- [17:30] The hidden location of the bridge suggests the perpetrator's familiarity with the area
- [19:30] Discussion of the secluded area where the girls were found
- [24:57] Question: When you found out that on the video when one of the girls mentioned the word gun, what was your reaction?
- [26:18] Speculation about the unspent ejected shell casing found at the crime scene raises questions
- [33:30] Question: Any last thoughts, Barbara?
- [34:37] Down the Hill Podcast: A personal anecdote about a team member illustrates the close-knit nature of podcasters
- [37:19] “From now on, it is our task to suspect each and every one among us.” -A.C
- Thanks for listening to another episode! If you’re loving the show and want to help grow the show, please head over to Itunes and leave a rating and review! How to Leave an Apple Podcast Review: First, Open the podcast app on your iPhone, Mac, or iPad. Then, hit the “Search” tab at the bottom right-hand corner of the page and search for Zone 7. Select the podcast, scroll down to find the subheading “Ratings & Reviews”. and select “Write a Review.” Next, select the number of stars you’d like to leave. Please choose 5 stars! Using the text box which says “Title,” write a title for your review. Then in the text box, write the review itself. The review can be up to 300 words long, but doesn’t need to be much more than: “Love the show! Thanks!” or Once you’re done select “Send” in the upper right-hand corner.
---
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook., Cold Case: Pathways to Justice. Sheryl is also the founder and director
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
One of my best childhood friends was Tim, and his
backyard backed up to my backyard, so all we had
to do to get together was climb over the fence.
Tim was always planning some types of adventure for us,
making rafts like huck fins so we could try to
(00:30):
cross Massingale lake, building ramps to jump our bikes, starting
fires with magnifying glasses. Once he even showed me just
how far we could be away from home by cutting
through the woods, crossing the creek, and coming out on
the other side. We were literally on the other side
(00:51):
of town. Tim was always ready to jump off something,
build something, or take off on one of our escapades.
I think about my time with him when I think
about Delphi. In this case, two young kids heading out
on an adventure, and it occurs to me what could
(01:13):
have been what should have been. Monday February thirteenth, twenty seventeen,
Liberty Germans and Abigail Williams went missing. They went missing
in Delphi, Indiana, off the high Bridge. Law enforcement and
family searched through the ninth February fourteenth. The next day,
(01:35):
law enforcement and volunteers continued their search, and during that
search their bodies were found. February fifteenth, law enforcement reveals
that Libby's phone contained images of the suspected killer. The
girls were found half a mile from the bridge on
the property of a man by the name of Ronald Logan.
(02:00):
Twenty second, twenty seventeen, law enforcement release the infamous audio
that we've all heard, where we believe the killer says
down the Hill. July seventeenth, twenty seventeen, law enforcement releases
the first sketch of the suspect. April twenty second, twenty nineteen,
(02:23):
the Indiana State Police release a second sketch, the second
Sketches of a younger man. October twenty sixth, twenty twenty two,
law enforcement arrest fifty year old Richard Allen of Delphi
for these murders. We have somebody with us today that's
(02:43):
going to help fill in some of the gaps and
paint a better picture of what occurred there and where
we are now, y'all. We got Barbara McDonald with us
for over seven years. She was a senior writer at HLN.
She is the co host, writer and producer, and I
want you all to get that a co host, a writer,
(03:04):
and producer of the podcast Down the Hill and I
can tell you if I'm doing a podcast how she
does all that, I don't know. The most important thing
to me when I think of Barbara is the fact
that she spent six weeks in Delphi, own her own
time and own her own dime. Now she may not
(03:26):
tell you that, but I'm going to tell you that
because she took her own time and her own money,
not to go to Greece, not to go to Paris,
not to go to some all inclusive place for you
can stay naked for a week. She went to Delphi,
Indiana because this case meant that much to her that
these two young girls thirteen and fourteen were murdered in
(03:52):
a place that arguably most of us had never heard of.
But that's where she went. She used her intellect, her
journalistic skills, and her vast network to investigate, advocate, and
assist on this case. Now she has also graciously helped
me on numerous cases again in her spare time. Like
(04:13):
she's got any but she is a solid part of
my Zone seven. I am so happy to welcome Barbara McDonald.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
What a nice introduction. Thank you so much. I'm so
thrilled to be here today talking to you. About a
case that I know means so much to both of us.
It's really gotten under our skin. The family members have
become part of our heart. You know, hopefully we are
about to see justice for Abby and Libby.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
It's time.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
It is absolutely time. And you're right. I mean, I
don't think you can spend two minutes with Kelsey German
that you just don't fall in love with her.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
There's so many wonderful members of both families. And you
know what I go back to all the time is
these were two girls who are absolutely loved and cared
for by their family, and were important members of their
families and had bright futures ahead of them, and we're
going to grow up and do wonderful things. They both
had goals, they both had dreams. They wanted to make
(05:12):
a difference in the world, and they probably would have,
and unfortunately today we're talking about, you know, the worst
thing that happened to these families.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
You know, and Kelsey had mentioned to me that Libby
liked law enforcement and detective work and had sort of
the little fascination with it. And it strikes me that
here own arguably one of the most highlighted cold cases
that we've had in the last five years, that Libby
is the one that gave us the best piece of
(05:43):
evidence right out of the gate. She did that.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
You know, I often wonder if she knew just how
significant that action was. You know, it's hard to go
into those moments and think about exactly what they were
thinking and processing as the events were unfolding. But the
bravery that she showed to take that phone and try
to get something that she could leave to say this
(06:11):
is what happened just before the end. And I certainly
hope that as this prosecution moves forward that they have
all the pieces that they need that they're able to
make the case they want to make. They have charged
this man, Richard Allen, with a very very serious crime,
the broad daylight murder of two little girls. As his
(06:32):
case makes its way through the justice system, there's pieces
that are coming out through documents released by the court.
But you know, we should all want this man to
get a fair trial, because if he gets a fair trial,
Abby and Libby get a fair trial, and that's what
we want. We want justice for these two precious girls.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
I have never heard it put that way, Barbara, but
I'm going to start using that if he gets a
fair trial, they get a fair trial.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, and ultimately that you know, there's so many people
who watch this case, and I've really watched recently, especially
with the release of the latest round of documents of
one hundred and eighteen documents that were released by the
court publicly. There's information in there that some people are
grabbing onto, going, aha, this is the piece of evidence
(07:22):
that proves that he did this.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
We're not there yet.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
He has been charged, and we should all want to
see this trial play out and see the evidence presented
in court by the people who collected it, by the
people who tested it, by the experts who analyze the results,
by the witnesses. Hear what the prosecution is saying about
(07:48):
all of that, as well as here what the defense
says about it, and the holes that they try to
poke in all of the evidence and facts that the
prosecution is going to present, and then come to a
decision about is this the man and has the state
proven its case. I don't want to pass judgment at
(08:10):
this point on whether Richard Allen is guilty or not
of this crime, but I want to see him get
that fair trial. I want to see the evidence presented.
I want to see it picked apart. I want to
hear what various experts say about the validity of this
element or that element, or this test or that test.
I want to hear what the witnesses have to say,
(08:31):
because in the documents that have been released, you know,
some of their statements are contradictory. They don't really match
up exactly some of them. There's some similarities there, but
some of them disagree on things like his hair color
and his height and all of that matters. So I'm
(08:51):
really looking forward to that day in court. The trial
is scheduled for January of twenty twenty four. Hard to
say if it's going to actually happen then, as you know,
a lot of things can happen, especially in a high
profile case. So you know, I want to reserve judgment,
and I would hope that more people would be willing
(09:13):
to do that as well.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
No, I think that's valid, And if you want to
look at things that are contradictory, you don't have to
look any further than the two composites that they put out. Indeed,
So you know, I think it's valid what you're saying.
And again I tell people all the time it's so
nice to have people that kind of keep you grounded,
remind you this is how the system works, how it
(09:37):
should work, how we should all want it to work.
One of my mantras is, you cannot take away walk
in that scene. You cannot. I don't think over emphasize
the importance of going to that scene. And here's what
(09:57):
I tell people all the time. If I'm at a
and there's some woods, it is as important to me
where the body is as it is what's on the
other side of those woods. Because on the other side
of those woods, if you've got a cemetery, so to speak,
or a liquor store or an apartment complex, that matters
(10:18):
to me. Because this body disposal site was selected, it
was selected before the murder. Why did the killer pick it?
That's going to tell you about him. So you got
to spend six weeks boots on the ground tell us
about that.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
You know.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
A highlight of my coverage of this case, for sure,
was to be able to really blend in as much
as I could to the Delphi community. You know, it's
a charming, quaint little town. Delphi is small, only about
three thousand people. It's the county seat of Carroll County,
and Carroll County only has about twenty or twenty two
(10:58):
thousand people, so we're.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Talking about very rural area.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
It's about an hour and a half northwest of Indianapolis,
near Lafayette, which is where home of Purdue University. So
much larger population there, but still not a huge, huge area.
A lot of farmland, a lot of agriculture, a lot
of people living very rural lives. And this is a
(11:22):
small community, you know, it's not the kind of community
that has a target, you know, a movie theater or
a shopping mall or anything like that. And so for
two little girls to decide on a day off from
school to go walk the trails, that's a pretty common
activity there. And I have walked those trails so many
(11:44):
times in all kinds of different weather from probably I
think you have done this as well, Cheryl, from like
fifteen degree weather with snow on the ground to ninety
five degree weather in the middle of summer. And what
I have seen is people use the trails. This is
an area where people go and walk. You know, this
(12:05):
isn't a community that necessarily has sidewalks and neighborhoods and
places that people can walk throughout the regular part of
the community. Downtown they have that, but where most people
live that doesn't exist. So I can totally see a
world where you know, you're out running errands, you want
to go for a walk, let's stop by the trails.
That's what they're there for. And it's a really beautiful
(12:27):
area of land. The Deer Creek runs through there, and
parts of it are just absolutely beautiful, and you know,
the deer and the wild animals and the various birds
and the trees. The area is very sloping, thus the
down the hill, so that gives you a lot of
different types of land and plants, and it's just really
(12:51):
a gem of the community. And every time I've been
out there, I've seen people using the trails for recreation.
It is not an uncommon thing. Kids go out there
to go for a walk, Adults go out there to
go for a walk. I've talked to people who have
ridden ATVs across the Moon on High Bridge when it
was in its you know, disrepair before they just updated
(13:15):
it and added a walking platform onto the bridge to
make it safer for people who do go out there
to enjoy it. But it's a really wonderful place, and
I remember talking with Becky Patty early on and she
was like, you know, when the girls wanted to go
out there that day, they had the day off from school,
and I thought, well, heck, that's better than them sitting
(13:36):
in front of the TV all day.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
And that was the attitude, you know.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
And you were talking at the top of the show
about your friend Tim and the adventures you would go
on in your neighborhood. I grew up the same way.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
You know.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
We were the kind of kids that were of that
generation where your mom kicked you basically out of the
house at nine am and said, don't come back till
the lights are on in the neighborhood, and you know,
we were on our I going all over the place.
I mean, when I think back to how many miles
away from home I would routinely travel as a seven,
(14:09):
eight nine year old, it's pretty surprising compared to today's
standards of how parents parent their children. So I relate
a lot to Abby and Libby going out there on
the bridge wanting to take pictures of the bridge. When
I was thirteen, I was a shutter bug. I had
my camera, I took it everywhere.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
I did the same kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
And this was two girls going out in broad daylight
in the middle of the afternoon. My mom always said,
go with somebody. You know, there's safety in numbers. As
long as you're not alone, you'll be okay.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
And as you say, broad daylight with other people around.
This was not some deserted deep in the wood spot
where they were going. They were going where there were
tons of people hiking and biking and picnicing and everything else.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Yeah, people go there and fish and you know, just
go out and enjoy the fresh air and the scenery.
And you're right, it's not in a secluded area by
any means. There are homes, not a lot of homes,
but there are homes near the area within you know,
one or two miles. Downtown Delphi is only about a
(15:22):
mile or two away, so it's not far at all.
And you know, it's just really unfortunate what happened out
there that day and how it has really changed this
entire community. It blew up, as you know, into such
a media firestorm. When it first happened. People were calling
(15:43):
it the Snapchat killing because of the video that Liddy
had got on her phone.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
It made the news.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
All over the world. You know, I remember talking with
law enforcement officers who were fielding calls from Japan and Finland,
and I think even a lot Via. Somebody in Latvia
called the Indiana State Police wanting information on the case.
So it definitely touched a nerve with true crime audiences
all over the world. And here we are now with
(16:14):
somebody in custody facing trial, and for a long time
it didn't really look like we were going to get there,
but here we are.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Well, you know, when I first got involved, and they
were saying, you know, it could be a transient person,
it could be a truck driver. So when I first
went there, I told Kelsey and them, don't tell me anything.
Don't tell me where the bridge is. Let me see
if I can find it. Well, there's not like a
ton of signage like telling you, hey, this is one
of our cool places to go hang out. And then
(16:45):
once I kind of got near, there's an overpath that
has the bridge's name on it. And so when you
turn and go under that underpath, you're still like, where
the heck is this bridge? Right? So I was, and
I finally gave up and I said, Okay, you're going
to have to tell me and Kelthy said, well, here's
where you park, Barbara. I would have never seen that
(17:09):
turn off. It was like gravel, but it was kind of,
you know, in the midst of some growth and other
things on the side of the road. So then when
I finally pulled up there, I could see, yes, there's
a place to park, and there's this beautiful little blue
bridge or walk bridge. But then you still have a
good bit to go on this trail and you have
(17:30):
to go for a pretty good distance before all of
a sudden you just turn and there's this bridge. It's
almost like wow, and it's bigger and taller and longer
than you think in your head before you get there.
So the first thing that I knew is there ain't
no way somebody just came upon this bridge that was
traveling through here.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Not happening absolutely, And you know what we had the
first we had the same experience as you. The first
time that we went to Delphi. I was with Susan
Hendrix from HLA and two shorhotographers and we did the
same thing with Kelsey. We said, don't tell us where
it is, We're going to try to find it. And
four of us with four smartphones could not find this bridge,
could not figure out how to get to where we
(18:13):
wanted to go, and I finally had to call Kelsey
and have her direct us there.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
And I had the.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Same thought, there was no way this was somebody driving
through and going hmmm, maybe I'll just stop there. This
had to have been somebody who knew this was here.
I've even talked to people who've lived in Delphi for many,
many years and didn't know these trails were there until
this happened.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
I remember telling Doug Carter, he's right there, He's within
five miles of that bridge. He has to live there.
So again, if you're a cold case investigator, you know
that nine times out of ten, his name's already in
the case file. So you've got to go back, look
at every name and make sure you can throw that
(19:01):
person out. So our advice immediately got to have fresh
eyes on this thing. You got to start over. And
I know, me and a group of detectives and csis
and psychopathologists, we all volunteered to do that for them,
but it was that imperative I will come there and
do it, because that's how confident I am. He's right there.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
And you know, when you get to know the area
and you walk around it. Where the girls were found
compared to where they were approached on the bridge, seems
to me to have been a deliberate effort on the
part of the killer to get somewhere more secluded. I
think where they were found is probably one of the
(19:45):
most secluded areas that you could go to in that
general area. Agreed, where you're going to be out of sight,
perhaps out of sound range from anybody else who might
be using the trails or the park.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
One hundred percent agree. And there's even enough of a
ravine that if you're laying there or prepping leaving items,
people looking up can't see it. So there's no doubt
in my mind that location was picked before.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
The other thing that's interesting, and I don't hear a
lot of people talk about this, but I think that
is an area that also provides if you're familiar with
the area, I think that area provides multiple ways to
get out. So if you are at this scene and
you're doing something you shouldn't be doing and somebody begins
(20:42):
to come near you, you would have plenty of notice
that they're approaching you before they would know you were there,
and you would have multiple ways to get out of.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
There, correct. And the first thing that kind of resonated
with me is they were slowly giving us information. Is
the one car that was parked way off? And then
you look at the video and you know, I tried
to again gently say to people, this person does not
look like he goes to the gym every day. And
(21:15):
the reason that is relevant is because who is going
to park further away to then start hiking? And again,
I want to be clear, I ain't being ugly. I
didn't go to the gym today either, and that's why
I'm telling you I'm not going to park a mile
away before I start ach Liizon.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Especially when there are other places to park closer.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Of course, it makes no sense unless you don't want
your car to be seen by the other people that
are in that area.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Yes, but do you really do you think it's plausible
that I mean, we have a witness according to these
documents that were released that says that she was driving
on that road north of the Cemetery Harry, just north
of the bridge at just before four pm and she
(22:05):
saw a man in jeans and a jean jacket who
was muddy and bloody walking towards where that car would
have been parked.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
I think you can't ignore it. And I think if
you go from the cemetery to the crime scene to
the car as the crow flies, it possibly makes some sense.
To me. There is not one female that is going
(22:35):
to listen to this episode that has not had something
happened to her with an unknown male. Either she was
approached weird, he said something weird, he brushed up against
her where you know, he touched her butt.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
You just gave her a weird vibe, gave.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Her a weird vibe. All of us have had that happen,
and sometimes even more overtly something has occurred. How many
full videotape Almost none. So here's what this meant to me.
You've got a fourteen year old girl that videotaped this man.
I believe something overtly happened before. I believe he passed them,
(23:16):
said something, showed them something, did something. And then when
he turned around is when she knew this is not
good and started to video him. If you look at
the photograph they released early on, he's to the right
of that bridge. He's way more to the right. When
(23:36):
I was going to walk on that bridge, baby, let
me tell you something. Dead center with my arms out right,
I am not trying to fall. I'm not trying to trip.
He's so far over it looks to me like his
feet and his hips are turned coming back in. I
believe he's turning around, That's what I think. And he's
(23:59):
got his hands in his And that's another thing that
I expressed to Doug Carter. There's no way he's not
going to have his arms out, just a natural way
to protect yourself walking on these pielines that have, as
you know, large gaps in some places where it looks rotten,
and I just don't see somebody traversing that way to
(24:21):
the side of it and their hands in their pockets.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
I agree that he was probably turning around.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
I absolutely agree that something happened before the camera came on.
There was a reason why she was concerned already, and
then she started recording, and we don't know.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
What that is.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
So I know you have put so much time and
effort into this case. So anytime something is released, some
bit of information or a fact or a piece of evidence,
I know you just start reeling. But when you found
out that owned the video, when one of the girls
mentioned the word gone. What was your reaction.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
My reaction might be different than a lot of people's.
I am not entirely sure that the jury is going
to hear that as clearly as that was stated in
the probable Cause. I think that there could be some
debate about whether or not that word is used. The
(25:26):
audio on that video is not clear. Police have mentioned
several times that they had to clean up just what
they presented to us publicly, which was down the hill,
and then they amended it to guys down the Hill,
And my understanding is that there was even some debate
(25:48):
about whether those words are correct, and there are some
people who listen to it and hear other things, but
I think that is more clear than what is said by.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
One of the girls.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
A lot of people who have speculated for a long
time me included that perhaps he did have a gun
and showed that to them on the bridge to help
get that early control of these two girls physically, and
that's certainly not out of the realm of possibilities. One
of the things I heard recently was that somebody was
(26:24):
saying that on the video you can hear the gun cocking,
and you know, there was the unspent ejected shellcasing that
was found at the crime scene between the bodies. Well,
the video was taken on the bridge, So if he's
cocking the gun on the bridge, I don't know that
that explains the shellcasing found a quarter of a mile
(26:48):
away between the bodies.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Yeah, that's a brilliant.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Point, depending on exactly where that action happened on the
bridge or whether he had just stepped off of it.
It could have been in the gravel at the end
of the bridge. But if he was still on the bridge,
there's a huge possibility that round would have ended up
in the water.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
It certainly wouldn't have wound up between the two of
them a half a mile away exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
So did he cock the gun again later and that
is what led to the unspent shell casing being found
at the scene.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
You know, we don't know.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
We also don't know yet if there is any other
evidence tying that bullet or gun to anything else. You know,
was his fingerprint on that gun, I mean on that bullet.
Did they find a partial print on it? Does that
(27:46):
match in any way to him? Was there DNA on it?
I have a lot of questions about that, And since
you know, the latest document dump says basically, the documents
contain information that there was a edged weapon used in
these murders. They were not killed by a gunshot. So
(28:08):
I think that further waters it down a little bit.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
For me.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
I'm very curious in hearing.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Much more about that shell casing and what all the
various experts have to say about it, what test was used,
how reliable that test is.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
I want to see all of that.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Yeah, I would love to believe that they got that
thing to Francine Bardol and that they do have his
DNA off of it, but I haven't seen anything that
would suggest that.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Right, And you know, we don't know all the information
the prosecution has, right they put up these documents that
the court did, the judge approved that, but that's still
not the complete case. So oh yeah, there could be
a lot more testing, a lot more evidence. There could
be a lot more evidence pointing directly at Richard Allen,
(28:57):
but we don't know that yet.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
But we do know that there's specific cell phone information,
firearm information, electronics, clothing.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
He placed himself at.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
The scene, girl, you just beat me to it.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
He volunteered that information.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
Yes, you know what he says to police about his
whereabouts while he was out there seems to match what
the witnesses are reporting they saw, So yeah, there is
some potential corroboration there.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
And then we're going to have you know, his computer,
things he researched, things he looked at. We have already had,
you know, statements from the family saying that when they
were in CVS, he would say things to them, you
know that maybe in hindsight or a little creepy, whereas
when they were first said to him, it didn't really
mean that much. So you know, who knows. But I
(29:52):
think there is so much more to weed through, you know.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
That's the other reason why I want Richard Allen to
have a fair trial, because he's found have been through
so much already and just waiting six plus years for
an arrest that was tortuous for them, and now to
begin this judicial process you know that could play out
(30:15):
for years when you're talking about convictions and appeals and
you know, delays, and this could be a process that
takes another couple of years. And I want them to
be able to at least know who did this, potentially
why it happened, so that they can move on with
(30:39):
their grieving, not that that brings closure, not that that brings.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
The end of anything.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
But as I think Mike Patty says, a lot, you know,
it would end a chapter right and allow them to
open up a new chapter that perhaps could have more
healing in it.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Well, I think for the whole community, having the who
takes away a lot of fear, takes away a lot
of this guy still walking around among us, you know.
But I tell you one thing that I am hopeful
with these alleged five confessions. I hope he said something
that only the killer would know.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Absolutely. That's the other thing. You know.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
There's a lot of people who are saying, oh, he confessed,
so it's a done deal. Well, not necessarily. We need
to hear what he said and whether or not he
offered any information that only the killer would know.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Like if he said that, yeah, I took her yellow underwear.
Did he give a color that we didn't know? Did
he say you know exactly how he murdered them. I've
always thought it was with a straight edge weapon. I
thought it was most likely their throats. I don't know that.
Did he say it because the killer would know?
Speaker 2 (31:51):
And did he offer anything like we haven't heard anything
about who might have been attacked first, or how many
wounds might have been on each victim.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Did he give information about.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
That exactly how we staged them?
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Yeah, And you know, the defense is arguing that, well,
you know, these are incoherent statements, ramblings of a man
who's degrading mentally. So I'd like to hear the call
where he allegedly confesses five times to his wife and
what was the context of that. Was he like, hey,
(32:26):
I got to tell you, like I did this, Like
I'm not going to get out of this trouble.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
I did this? Or was it just you know, fine,
I did it. I did it. I did it.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
I mean, there's a lot of variation, and I want
to hear what he said and what she said, and
what the conversation was leading up to it.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
I want to know all of that.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
The ex prosecutor mentioned to me that there were three
different signatures in his opinion, we have all understood and
I readily accept that there was staging at that scene.
What is it did he say it? Would he give
any information that would make us go, oh, I get it.
(33:12):
It has to be him, because this was never released
any last.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Thoughts, you know, Mac, I think, at the end of
the day, this is a case about Abby and Libby,
and a lot of the headlines right now are focused
on Richard Allen, as they need to be, because there's
a lot of news happening with the case. But this
crime was about two little girls thirteen and fourteen years old.
(33:39):
It would be twenty now. Libby would be approaching her
twenty first birthday later this year, and just think of
all that They missed prom driver's license, boyfriends, college. You know,
Libby missed seeing her sister, her best friend, her big sister,
(33:59):
get me married. She's missing her first niece, Kelsey is having
a baby, and there's just so much loss from just
this horrendous attack. And whoever did this should absolutely be
caught and they should be punished. But just remember Abby
(34:21):
and Libby. They deserved a lot more than they got,
and I really wish we could have seen what they
would have done with their lives.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
I could not add to that if I wanted to
your podcast Down the Hill. I listened to the entire thing.
It was one of the most comprehensive, all inclusive, three
sixty view that I've ever listened to.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Oh thank you. Can I give a quick shout out
to the team that worked with me on that, Dan
and Drew. I mean, it was an amazing experience on
my part, absolutely a professional highlight to have been teamed
with such amazing professionals and to be able to create
that work. And I'll forever be proud of it.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Well, not only can he give a shout out, I'm
going to second it. And I'll tell you in a
small world, little action. You and I are talking in
Delphi the morning of the press conference beforehand, and then
all of a sudden, behind me, I hear Cheryl like
question mark, and I turn and I turn around and
(35:34):
it's Drew. And here's the great thing just for people
to know. When I used to do the Nancy Gray
Show and we would have to go to see an
n Drew would sometimes babysit Hunting Caroline for the hour
that I was on air.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
He's such a great guy.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Oh, he's tremendous, and Hunting Caroline used to have such
a great time of him. He would entertain them and
that's not easy to do to they were little at time.
You're talking about, you know, fifteen twenty years ago, And
I mean he taught in that paper football game he
would play that sounds like Drew, oh my gosh. And
they would always have some great story to tell, some
(36:13):
game he taught them. So, yes, you can brag on them,
but that I want people to understand again. You know,
there's all these talents that people have that they brought
to this thing. It's not just hey, I'm going to
do a podcast. You brought everything you had to it,
even your travels. So did Drew.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Absolutely, And Drew and Dan and I we still talk
about the case all the time. We share things with
each other all the time. You know, they're my sounding
board and.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
It's it's just.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
This case either gets under your skin or it doesn't.
And it absolutely got under theirs. So they joined me
in my obsession, and you know, for probably about nine
months we worked exclusively on that.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Well, Barbara, I can't thank you enough for being here
and sharing your genius and your expertise. And I'm just
going to give you the final word.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Thank you so much for this chance to talk about
them and this case. Like everyone else, I'll be watching
to see how this plays out in court.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Now all I'll go end Zone seven the way that
I always do with a quote. From now on, it
is our task to suspect each and everyone among us.
That's from Agatha Christie's book. And then there were none.
I'm a Cheryl McCollum and this is Zone seven.
One of my best childhood friends was Tim, and his
backyard backed up to my backyard, so all we had
to do to get together was climb over the fence.
Tim was always planning some types of adventure for us,
making rafts like huck fins so we could try to
(00:30):
cross Massingale lake, building ramps to jump our bikes, starting
fires with magnifying glasses. Once he even showed me just
how far we could be away from home by cutting
through the woods, crossing the creek, and coming out on
the other side. We were literally on the other side
(00:51):
of town. Tim was always ready to jump off something,
build something, or take off on one of our escapades.
I think about my time with him when I think
about Delphi. In this case, two young kids heading out
on an adventure, and it occurs to me what could
(01:13):
have been what should have been. Monday February thirteenth, twenty seventeen,
Liberty Germans and Abigail Williams went missing. They went missing
in Delphi, Indiana, off the high Bridge. Law enforcement and
family searched through the ninth February fourteenth. The next day,
(01:35):
law enforcement and volunteers continued their search, and during that
search their bodies were found. February fifteenth, law enforcement reveals
that Libby's phone contained images of the suspected killer. The
girls were found half a mile from the bridge on
the property of a man by the name of Ronald Logan.
(02:00):
Twenty second, twenty seventeen, law enforcement release the infamous audio
that we've all heard, where we believe the killer says
down the Hill. July seventeenth, twenty seventeen, law enforcement releases
the first sketch of the suspect. April twenty second, twenty nineteen,
(02:23):
the Indiana State Police release a second sketch, the second
Sketches of a younger man. October twenty sixth, twenty twenty two,
law enforcement arrest fifty year old Richard Allen of Delphi
for these murders. We have somebody with us today that's
(02:43):
going to help fill in some of the gaps and
paint a better picture of what occurred there and where
we are now, y'all. We got Barbara McDonald with us
for over seven years. She was a senior writer at HLN.
She is the co host, writer and producer, and I
want you all to get that a co host, a writer,
(03:04):
and producer of the podcast Down the Hill and I
can tell you if I'm doing a podcast how she
does all that, I don't know. The most important thing
to me when I think of Barbara is the fact
that she spent six weeks in Delphi, own her own
time and own her own dime. Now she may not
(03:26):
tell you that, but I'm going to tell you that
because she took her own time and her own money,
not to go to Greece, not to go to Paris,
not to go to some all inclusive place for you
can stay naked for a week. She went to Delphi,
Indiana because this case meant that much to her that
these two young girls thirteen and fourteen were murdered in
(03:52):
a place that arguably most of us had never heard of.
But that's where she went. She used her intellect, her
journalistic skills, and her vast network to investigate, advocate, and
assist on this case. Now she has also graciously helped
me on numerous cases again in her spare time. Like
(04:13):
she's got any but she is a solid part of
my Zone seven. I am so happy to welcome Barbara McDonald.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
What a nice introduction. Thank you so much. I'm so
thrilled to be here today talking to you. About a
case that I know means so much to both of us.
It's really gotten under our skin. The family members have
become part of our heart. You know, hopefully we are
about to see justice for Abby and Libby.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
It's time.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
It is absolutely time. And you're right. I mean, I
don't think you can spend two minutes with Kelsey German
that you just don't fall in love with her.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
There's so many wonderful members of both families. And you
know what I go back to all the time is
these were two girls who are absolutely loved and cared
for by their family, and were important members of their
families and had bright futures ahead of them, and we're
going to grow up and do wonderful things. They both
had goals, they both had dreams. They wanted to make
(05:12):
a difference in the world, and they probably would have,
and unfortunately today we're talking about, you know, the worst
thing that happened to these families.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
You know, and Kelsey had mentioned to me that Libby
liked law enforcement and detective work and had sort of
the little fascination with it. And it strikes me that
here own arguably one of the most highlighted cold cases
that we've had in the last five years, that Libby
is the one that gave us the best piece of
(05:43):
evidence right out of the gate. She did that.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
You know, I often wonder if she knew just how
significant that action was. You know, it's hard to go
into those moments and think about exactly what they were
thinking and processing as the events were unfolding. But the
bravery that she showed to take that phone and try
to get something that she could leave to say this
(06:11):
is what happened just before the end. And I certainly
hope that as this prosecution moves forward that they have
all the pieces that they need that they're able to
make the case they want to make. They have charged
this man, Richard Allen, with a very very serious crime,
the broad daylight murder of two little girls. As his
(06:32):
case makes its way through the justice system, there's pieces
that are coming out through documents released by the court.
But you know, we should all want this man to
get a fair trial, because if he gets a fair trial,
Abby and Libby get a fair trial, and that's what
we want. We want justice for these two precious girls.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
I have never heard it put that way, Barbara, but
I'm going to start using that if he gets a
fair trial, they get a fair trial.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, and ultimately that you know, there's so many people
who watch this case, and I've really watched recently, especially
with the release of the latest round of documents of
one hundred and eighteen documents that were released by the
court publicly. There's information in there that some people are
grabbing onto, going, aha, this is the piece of evidence
(07:22):
that proves that he did this.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
We're not there yet.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
He has been charged, and we should all want to
see this trial play out and see the evidence presented
in court by the people who collected it, by the
people who tested it, by the experts who analyze the results,
by the witnesses. Hear what the prosecution is saying about
(07:48):
all of that, as well as here what the defense
says about it, and the holes that they try to
poke in all of the evidence and facts that the
prosecution is going to present, and then come to a
decision about is this the man and has the state
proven its case. I don't want to pass judgment at
(08:10):
this point on whether Richard Allen is guilty or not
of this crime, but I want to see him get
that fair trial. I want to see the evidence presented.
I want to see it picked apart. I want to
hear what various experts say about the validity of this
element or that element, or this test or that test.
I want to hear what the witnesses have to say,
(08:31):
because in the documents that have been released, you know,
some of their statements are contradictory. They don't really match
up exactly some of them. There's some similarities there, but
some of them disagree on things like his hair color
and his height and all of that matters. So I'm
(08:51):
really looking forward to that day in court. The trial
is scheduled for January of twenty twenty four. Hard to
say if it's going to actually happen then, as you know,
a lot of things can happen, especially in a high
profile case. So you know, I want to reserve judgment,
and I would hope that more people would be willing
(09:13):
to do that as well.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
No, I think that's valid, And if you want to
look at things that are contradictory, you don't have to
look any further than the two composites that they put out. Indeed,
So you know, I think it's valid what you're saying.
And again I tell people all the time it's so
nice to have people that kind of keep you grounded,
remind you this is how the system works, how it
(09:37):
should work, how we should all want it to work.
One of my mantras is, you cannot take away walk
in that scene. You cannot. I don't think over emphasize
the importance of going to that scene. And here's what
(09:57):
I tell people all the time. If I'm at a
and there's some woods, it is as important to me
where the body is as it is what's on the
other side of those woods. Because on the other side
of those woods, if you've got a cemetery, so to speak,
or a liquor store or an apartment complex, that matters
(10:18):
to me. Because this body disposal site was selected, it
was selected before the murder. Why did the killer pick it?
That's going to tell you about him. So you got
to spend six weeks boots on the ground tell us
about that.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
You know.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
A highlight of my coverage of this case, for sure,
was to be able to really blend in as much
as I could to the Delphi community. You know, it's
a charming, quaint little town. Delphi is small, only about
three thousand people. It's the county seat of Carroll County,
and Carroll County only has about twenty or twenty two
(10:58):
thousand people, so we're.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Talking about very rural area.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
It's about an hour and a half northwest of Indianapolis,
near Lafayette, which is where home of Purdue University. So
much larger population there, but still not a huge, huge area.
A lot of farmland, a lot of agriculture, a lot
of people living very rural lives. And this is a
(11:22):
small community, you know, it's not the kind of community
that has a target, you know, a movie theater or
a shopping mall or anything like that. And so for
two little girls to decide on a day off from
school to go walk the trails, that's a pretty common
activity there. And I have walked those trails so many
(11:44):
times in all kinds of different weather from probably I
think you have done this as well, Cheryl, from like
fifteen degree weather with snow on the ground to ninety
five degree weather in the middle of summer. And what
I have seen is people use the trails. This is
an area where people go and walk. You know, this
(12:05):
isn't a community that necessarily has sidewalks and neighborhoods and
places that people can walk throughout the regular part of
the community. Downtown they have that, but where most people
live that doesn't exist. So I can totally see a
world where you know, you're out running errands, you want
to go for a walk, let's stop by the trails.
That's what they're there for. And it's a really beautiful
(12:27):
area of land. The Deer Creek runs through there, and
parts of it are just absolutely beautiful, and you know,
the deer and the wild animals and the various birds
and the trees. The area is very sloping, thus the
down the hill, so that gives you a lot of
different types of land and plants, and it's just really
(12:51):
a gem of the community. And every time I've been
out there, I've seen people using the trails for recreation.
It is not an uncommon thing. Kids go out there
to go for a walk, Adults go out there to
go for a walk. I've talked to people who have
ridden ATVs across the Moon on High Bridge when it
was in its you know, disrepair before they just updated
(13:15):
it and added a walking platform onto the bridge to
make it safer for people who do go out there
to enjoy it. But it's a really wonderful place, and
I remember talking with Becky Patty early on and she
was like, you know, when the girls wanted to go
out there that day, they had the day off from school,
and I thought, well, heck, that's better than them sitting
(13:36):
in front of the TV all day.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
And that was the attitude, you know.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
And you were talking at the top of the show
about your friend Tim and the adventures you would go
on in your neighborhood. I grew up the same way.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
You know.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
We were the kind of kids that were of that
generation where your mom kicked you basically out of the
house at nine am and said, don't come back till
the lights are on in the neighborhood, and you know,
we were on our I going all over the place.
I mean, when I think back to how many miles
away from home I would routinely travel as a seven,
(14:09):
eight nine year old, it's pretty surprising compared to today's
standards of how parents parent their children. So I relate
a lot to Abby and Libby going out there on
the bridge wanting to take pictures of the bridge. When
I was thirteen, I was a shutter bug. I had
my camera, I took it everywhere.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
I did the same kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
And this was two girls going out in broad daylight
in the middle of the afternoon. My mom always said,
go with somebody. You know, there's safety in numbers. As
long as you're not alone, you'll be okay.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
And as you say, broad daylight with other people around.
This was not some deserted deep in the wood spot
where they were going. They were going where there were
tons of people hiking and biking and picnicing and everything else.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Yeah, people go there and fish and you know, just
go out and enjoy the fresh air and the scenery.
And you're right, it's not in a secluded area by
any means. There are homes, not a lot of homes,
but there are homes near the area within you know,
one or two miles. Downtown Delphi is only about a
(15:22):
mile or two away, so it's not far at all.
And you know, it's just really unfortunate what happened out
there that day and how it has really changed this
entire community. It blew up, as you know, into such
a media firestorm. When it first happened. People were calling
(15:43):
it the Snapchat killing because of the video that Liddy
had got on her phone.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
It made the news.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
All over the world. You know, I remember talking with
law enforcement officers who were fielding calls from Japan and Finland,
and I think even a lot Via. Somebody in Latvia
called the Indiana State Police wanting information on the case.
So it definitely touched a nerve with true crime audiences
all over the world. And here we are now with
(16:14):
somebody in custody facing trial, and for a long time
it didn't really look like we were going to get there,
but here we are.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Well, you know, when I first got involved, and they
were saying, you know, it could be a transient person,
it could be a truck driver. So when I first
went there, I told Kelsey and them, don't tell me anything.
Don't tell me where the bridge is. Let me see
if I can find it. Well, there's not like a
ton of signage like telling you, hey, this is one
of our cool places to go hang out. And then
(16:45):
once I kind of got near, there's an overpath that
has the bridge's name on it. And so when you
turn and go under that underpath, you're still like, where
the heck is this bridge? Right? So I was, and
I finally gave up and I said, Okay, you're going
to have to tell me and Kelthy said, well, here's
where you park, Barbara. I would have never seen that
(17:09):
turn off. It was like gravel, but it was kind of,
you know, in the midst of some growth and other
things on the side of the road. So then when
I finally pulled up there, I could see, yes, there's
a place to park, and there's this beautiful little blue
bridge or walk bridge. But then you still have a
good bit to go on this trail and you have
(17:30):
to go for a pretty good distance before all of
a sudden you just turn and there's this bridge. It's
almost like wow, and it's bigger and taller and longer
than you think in your head before you get there.
So the first thing that I knew is there ain't
no way somebody just came upon this bridge that was
traveling through here.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Not happening absolutely, And you know what we had the
first we had the same experience as you. The first
time that we went to Delphi. I was with Susan
Hendrix from HLA and two shorhotographers and we did the
same thing with Kelsey. We said, don't tell us where
it is, We're going to try to find it. And
four of us with four smartphones could not find this bridge,
could not figure out how to get to where we
(18:13):
wanted to go, and I finally had to call Kelsey
and have her direct us there.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
And I had the.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Same thought, there was no way this was somebody driving
through and going hmmm, maybe I'll just stop there. This
had to have been somebody who knew this was here.
I've even talked to people who've lived in Delphi for many,
many years and didn't know these trails were there until
this happened.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
I remember telling Doug Carter, he's right there, He's within
five miles of that bridge. He has to live there.
So again, if you're a cold case investigator, you know
that nine times out of ten, his name's already in
the case file. So you've got to go back, look
at every name and make sure you can throw that
(19:01):
person out. So our advice immediately got to have fresh
eyes on this thing. You got to start over. And
I know, me and a group of detectives and csis
and psychopathologists, we all volunteered to do that for them,
but it was that imperative I will come there and
do it, because that's how confident I am. He's right there.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
And you know, when you get to know the area
and you walk around it. Where the girls were found
compared to where they were approached on the bridge, seems
to me to have been a deliberate effort on the
part of the killer to get somewhere more secluded. I
think where they were found is probably one of the
(19:45):
most secluded areas that you could go to in that
general area. Agreed, where you're going to be out of sight,
perhaps out of sound range from anybody else who might
be using the trails or the park.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
One hundred percent agree. And there's even enough of a
ravine that if you're laying there or prepping leaving items,
people looking up can't see it. So there's no doubt
in my mind that location was picked before.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
The other thing that's interesting, and I don't hear a
lot of people talk about this, but I think that
is an area that also provides if you're familiar with
the area, I think that area provides multiple ways to
get out. So if you are at this scene and
you're doing something you shouldn't be doing and somebody begins
(20:42):
to come near you, you would have plenty of notice
that they're approaching you before they would know you were there,
and you would have multiple ways to get out of.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
There, correct. And the first thing that kind of resonated
with me is they were slowly giving us information. Is
the one car that was parked way off? And then
you look at the video and you know, I tried
to again gently say to people, this person does not
look like he goes to the gym every day. And
(21:15):
the reason that is relevant is because who is going
to park further away to then start hiking? And again,
I want to be clear, I ain't being ugly. I
didn't go to the gym today either, and that's why
I'm telling you I'm not going to park a mile
away before I start ach Liizon.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Especially when there are other places to park closer.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Of course, it makes no sense unless you don't want
your car to be seen by the other people that
are in that area.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Yes, but do you really do you think it's plausible
that I mean, we have a witness according to these
documents that were released that says that she was driving
on that road north of the Cemetery Harry, just north
of the bridge at just before four pm and she
(22:05):
saw a man in jeans and a jean jacket who
was muddy and bloody walking towards where that car would
have been parked.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
I think you can't ignore it. And I think if
you go from the cemetery to the crime scene to
the car as the crow flies, it possibly makes some sense.
To me. There is not one female that is going
(22:35):
to listen to this episode that has not had something
happened to her with an unknown male. Either she was
approached weird, he said something weird, he brushed up against
her where you know, he touched her butt.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
You just gave her a weird vibe, gave.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Her a weird vibe. All of us have had that happen,
and sometimes even more overtly something has occurred. How many
full videotape Almost none. So here's what this meant to me.
You've got a fourteen year old girl that videotaped this man.
I believe something overtly happened before. I believe he passed them,
(23:16):
said something, showed them something, did something. And then when
he turned around is when she knew this is not
good and started to video him. If you look at
the photograph they released early on, he's to the right
of that bridge. He's way more to the right. When
(23:36):
I was going to walk on that bridge, baby, let
me tell you something. Dead center with my arms out right,
I am not trying to fall. I'm not trying to trip.
He's so far over it looks to me like his
feet and his hips are turned coming back in. I
believe he's turning around, That's what I think. And he's
(23:59):
got his hands in his And that's another thing that
I expressed to Doug Carter. There's no way he's not
going to have his arms out, just a natural way
to protect yourself walking on these pielines that have, as
you know, large gaps in some places where it looks rotten,
and I just don't see somebody traversing that way to
(24:21):
the side of it and their hands in their pockets.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
I agree that he was probably turning around.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
I absolutely agree that something happened before the camera came on.
There was a reason why she was concerned already, and
then she started recording, and we don't know.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
What that is.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
So I know you have put so much time and
effort into this case. So anytime something is released, some
bit of information or a fact or a piece of evidence,
I know you just start reeling. But when you found
out that owned the video, when one of the girls
mentioned the word gone. What was your reaction.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
My reaction might be different than a lot of people's.
I am not entirely sure that the jury is going
to hear that as clearly as that was stated in
the probable Cause. I think that there could be some
debate about whether or not that word is used. The
(25:26):
audio on that video is not clear. Police have mentioned
several times that they had to clean up just what
they presented to us publicly, which was down the hill,
and then they amended it to guys down the Hill,
And my understanding is that there was even some debate
(25:48):
about whether those words are correct, and there are some
people who listen to it and hear other things, but
I think that is more clear than what is said by.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
One of the girls.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
A lot of people who have speculated for a long
time me included that perhaps he did have a gun
and showed that to them on the bridge to help
get that early control of these two girls physically, and
that's certainly not out of the realm of possibilities. One
of the things I heard recently was that somebody was
(26:24):
saying that on the video you can hear the gun cocking,
and you know, there was the unspent ejected shellcasing that
was found at the crime scene between the bodies. Well,
the video was taken on the bridge, So if he's
cocking the gun on the bridge, I don't know that
that explains the shellcasing found a quarter of a mile
(26:48):
away between the bodies.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Yeah, that's a brilliant.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Point, depending on exactly where that action happened on the
bridge or whether he had just stepped off of it.
It could have been in the gravel at the end
of the bridge. But if he was still on the bridge,
there's a huge possibility that round would have ended up
in the water.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
It certainly wouldn't have wound up between the two of
them a half a mile away exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
So did he cock the gun again later and that
is what led to the unspent shell casing being found
at the scene.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
You know, we don't know.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
We also don't know yet if there is any other
evidence tying that bullet or gun to anything else. You know,
was his fingerprint on that gun, I mean on that bullet.
Did they find a partial print on it? Does that
(27:46):
match in any way to him? Was there DNA on it?
I have a lot of questions about that, And since
you know, the latest document dump says basically, the documents
contain information that there was a edged weapon used in
these murders. They were not killed by a gunshot. So
(28:08):
I think that further waters it down a little bit.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
For me.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
I'm very curious in hearing.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Much more about that shell casing and what all the
various experts have to say about it, what test was used,
how reliable that test is.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
I want to see all of that.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Yeah, I would love to believe that they got that
thing to Francine Bardol and that they do have his
DNA off of it, but I haven't seen anything that
would suggest that.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Right, And you know, we don't know all the information
the prosecution has, right they put up these documents that
the court did, the judge approved that, but that's still
not the complete case. So oh yeah, there could be
a lot more testing, a lot more evidence. There could
be a lot more evidence pointing directly at Richard Allen,
(28:57):
but we don't know that yet.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
But we do know that there's specific cell phone information,
firearm information, electronics, clothing.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
He placed himself at.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
The scene, girl, you just beat me to it.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
He volunteered that information.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
Yes, you know what he says to police about his
whereabouts while he was out there seems to match what
the witnesses are reporting they saw, So yeah, there is
some potential corroboration there.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
And then we're going to have you know, his computer,
things he researched, things he looked at. We have already had,
you know, statements from the family saying that when they
were in CVS, he would say things to them, you
know that maybe in hindsight or a little creepy, whereas
when they were first said to him, it didn't really
mean that much. So you know, who knows. But I
(29:52):
think there is so much more to weed through, you know.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
That's the other reason why I want Richard Allen to
have a fair trial, because he's found have been through
so much already and just waiting six plus years for
an arrest that was tortuous for them, and now to
begin this judicial process you know that could play out
(30:15):
for years when you're talking about convictions and appeals and
you know, delays, and this could be a process that
takes another couple of years. And I want them to
be able to at least know who did this, potentially
why it happened, so that they can move on with
(30:39):
their grieving, not that that brings closure, not that that brings.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
The end of anything.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
But as I think Mike Patty says, a lot, you know,
it would end a chapter right and allow them to
open up a new chapter that perhaps could have more
healing in it.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Well, I think for the whole community, having the who
takes away a lot of fear, takes away a lot
of this guy still walking around among us, you know.
But I tell you one thing that I am hopeful
with these alleged five confessions. I hope he said something
that only the killer would know.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Absolutely. That's the other thing. You know.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
There's a lot of people who are saying, oh, he confessed,
so it's a done deal. Well, not necessarily. We need
to hear what he said and whether or not he
offered any information that only the killer would know.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Like if he said that, yeah, I took her yellow underwear.
Did he give a color that we didn't know? Did
he say you know exactly how he murdered them. I've
always thought it was with a straight edge weapon. I
thought it was most likely their throats. I don't know that.
Did he say it because the killer would know?
Speaker 2 (31:51):
And did he offer anything like we haven't heard anything
about who might have been attacked first, or how many
wounds might have been on each victim.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Did he give information about.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
That exactly how we staged them?
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Yeah, And you know, the defense is arguing that, well,
you know, these are incoherent statements, ramblings of a man
who's degrading mentally. So I'd like to hear the call
where he allegedly confesses five times to his wife and
what was the context of that. Was he like, hey,
(32:26):
I got to tell you, like I did this, Like
I'm not going to get out of this trouble.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
I did this? Or was it just you know, fine,
I did it. I did it. I did it.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
I mean, there's a lot of variation, and I want
to hear what he said and what she said, and
what the conversation was leading up to it.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
I want to know all of that.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
The ex prosecutor mentioned to me that there were three
different signatures in his opinion, we have all understood and
I readily accept that there was staging at that scene.
What is it did he say it? Would he give
any information that would make us go, oh, I get it.
(33:12):
It has to be him, because this was never released
any last.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Thoughts, you know, Mac, I think, at the end of
the day, this is a case about Abby and Libby,
and a lot of the headlines right now are focused
on Richard Allen, as they need to be, because there's
a lot of news happening with the case. But this
crime was about two little girls thirteen and fourteen years old.
(33:39):
It would be twenty now. Libby would be approaching her
twenty first birthday later this year, and just think of
all that They missed prom driver's license, boyfriends, college. You know,
Libby missed seeing her sister, her best friend, her big sister,
(33:59):
get me married. She's missing her first niece, Kelsey is having
a baby, and there's just so much loss from just
this horrendous attack. And whoever did this should absolutely be
caught and they should be punished. But just remember Abby
(34:21):
and Libby. They deserved a lot more than they got,
and I really wish we could have seen what they
would have done with their lives.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
I could not add to that if I wanted to
your podcast Down the Hill. I listened to the entire thing.
It was one of the most comprehensive, all inclusive, three
sixty view that I've ever listened to.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Oh thank you. Can I give a quick shout out
to the team that worked with me on that, Dan
and Drew. I mean, it was an amazing experience on
my part, absolutely a professional highlight to have been teamed
with such amazing professionals and to be able to create
that work. And I'll forever be proud of it.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Well, not only can he give a shout out, I'm
going to second it. And I'll tell you in a
small world, little action. You and I are talking in
Delphi the morning of the press conference beforehand, and then
all of a sudden, behind me, I hear Cheryl like
question mark, and I turn and I turn around and
(35:34):
it's Drew. And here's the great thing just for people
to know. When I used to do the Nancy Gray
Show and we would have to go to see an
n Drew would sometimes babysit Hunting Caroline for the hour
that I was on air.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
He's such a great guy.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Oh, he's tremendous, and Hunting Caroline used to have such
a great time of him. He would entertain them and
that's not easy to do to they were little at time.
You're talking about, you know, fifteen twenty years ago, And
I mean he taught in that paper football game he
would play that sounds like Drew, oh my gosh. And
they would always have some great story to tell, some
(36:13):
game he taught them. So, yes, you can brag on them,
but that I want people to understand again. You know,
there's all these talents that people have that they brought
to this thing. It's not just hey, I'm going to
do a podcast. You brought everything you had to it,
even your travels. So did Drew.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Absolutely, And Drew and Dan and I we still talk
about the case all the time. We share things with
each other all the time. You know, they're my sounding
board and.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
It's it's just.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
This case either gets under your skin or it doesn't.
And it absolutely got under theirs. So they joined me
in my obsession, and you know, for probably about nine
months we worked exclusively on that.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Well, Barbara, I can't thank you enough for being here
and sharing your genius and your expertise. And I'm just
going to give you the final word.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Thank you so much for this chance to talk about
them and this case. Like everyone else, I'll be watching
to see how this plays out in court.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Now all I'll go end Zone seven the way that
I always do with a quote. From now on, it
is our task to suspect each and everyone among us.
That's from Agatha Christie's book. And then there were none.
I'm a Cheryl McCollum and this is Zone seven.
Host
Sheryl McCollum
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com