October 27, 2025 • 22 mins
This week on Pathology with Dr. Priya, a Zone 7 series, Sheryl McCollum and Dr. Priya Banerjee continue their forensic review of the 2011 death of Ellen Greenberg, a young woman found with more than twenty stab wounds in her Philadelphia apartment. Picking up where part one left off, Dr. Priya discusses the two critical stab wounds that penetrated Ellen's brain stem and spinal cord; injuries she believes would have rendered her incapable of any further self-harm. From the anatomy of the cervical spine to the forensic interpretation of bruising, Dr. Priya explains why the medical evidence in this case still challenges the official ruling of suicide, and why the Greenberg family continues to fight for justice.
Highlights
- (0:00) Welcome to Pathology with Dr. Priya: A Zone 7 series—Sheryl McCollum and Dr. Priya introduce part two of the Ellen Greenberg case
- (1:45) Dr. Priya describes how she documents injuries and explains why numbering stab wounds can mislead investigators
- (2:45) The base-of-skull wounds, and how it penetrated the dura, disrupting vital brainstem functions
- (4:45) The cervical-spine injury between C2 and C3 and how Ellen’s neurological injuries could explain the absence of defensive wounds
- (10:45) Distinguishing the possible order of injuries, and why positioning and directionality are critical in understanding the sequence of events
- (13:15) "History of mental illness does not make you suicidal.” Dr. Priya explains why psychiatric history must be interpreted cautiously in death investigations
- (14:15) Brusing: what it can and cannot tell investigators about struggle, timing and prior assaults
- (20:00) Dr. Priya reflects on the Greenberg family’s courage, and the power of their love to keep fighting for the truth
About the Hosts
Dr. Priya Banerjee is a board-certified forensic pathologist with extensive experience in death investigation, clinical forensics, and courtroom testimony. A graduate of Johns Hopkins, she served for over a decade as Rhode Island’s state medical examiner and now runs a private forensic pathology practice. Her work includes military deaths, NSA cases, and high-profile investigations. Dr. Priya has also been featured as a forensic expert on platforms such as CrimeOnline and Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. She is a dedicated educator, animal lover, and proud mom.
Website: anchorforensicpathology.com
Twitter/X: @Autopsy_MD
Sheryl McCollum is an Emmy Award–winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnline, and the Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. She works as a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department and is the co-author of the textbook Cold Case: Pathways to Justice. Sheryl is also the founder and director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute (CCIRI), a nationally recognized nonprofit that brings together universities, law enforcement, and experts to help solve unsolved homicides, missing persons cases, and kidnappings.
Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
Twitter/X: @ColdCaseTips
Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
Instagram: @officialzone7podcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Y'all, Welcome to Pathology with Doctor Pria, Ellen Greenberg, Part two.
So Doctor Pria last week was giving us a great
introduction to autopsy one on one and she started to
explain the injuries that she notated with Ellen Greenberg. Now
(00:30):
she's going to jump right back into where she was
where she's talking about the two injuries on the back
of the head that would have rendered Ellen incapable of
stabbing herself even more. And that's critical because as y'all know,
when she was found the knife was in her chest,
which would have meant there was at least one more
(00:52):
stab wound after those two that she's already pinpointed. Doctor Pria,
Welcome back and thank you again for taking us through
this important case.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yes, so I do want to, you know, just revisit
the issue that when I look at anybody who's been
stabbed multiple times, it's the order is you know, is
impossible to determine unless it's on video. Okay, now we
know the last stab wounds the one with the knife,
and we can we need to pay attention at autopsy
whether there's bleeding with each wound in stab or in
(01:26):
size or cutting wound to see if it was while
she was physiologically alive. Okay, So that is where we're
talking about. Now. We know that the chest wound is
the last one because it has a knife in it.
That's the only one I can tell. Okay. I can't
tell you if it's neighbor on the chest or the
neck was first, middle, you know, second to last. We're
(01:51):
just gonna have to look at each one. Okay. Now,
when these wounds are described, we just we can't say
wound number one two because I think that implies too
much of an order. So like what's done in this case,
I always do ABCD and I put a huge caveat
at the top of my report that these are labeled
(02:13):
purely for descriptive purposes and in any order in which
they were sustained is not implied. Okay, So just remember that,
even though I'll talk about letterings that have been assigned,
we just know that they happened before she died with
the knife in her chest. Okay. That being said, diagrams
(02:33):
that were shown to me, generated separately by other parties
this week had two wounds N and T. Okay, and
I don't recall I don't remember which one was which.
If N was in the base of the skull, and
T was at the at the spinal column. So I'll
take those letters out and just refer to these wounds
(02:54):
by location for clarity. So there's one at the base
of her skull that goes into the skull through the dura. Okay.
The dura is the thick covering over the brain and
brain stem and into a very critical part of the
brain stem that controls motor function. Now that's a lot
(03:17):
of language. Okay, what does that mean. She was stabbed
in the back of her head at the base of
the head and the knife cut through all of the
structures into the brain tissue. Okay. Now, the part of
the brain tissue that it affected is called the brain stem. Okay,
as you guys are listening, as I'm sitting here talking
(03:39):
a mile a minute, we're not thinking about heartbeat and breathing, right.
That happens all by itself, and it's the brain stem
that we call sometimes the reptilian brain because you know,
reptiles are simple, but they're still alive. This is housekeeping
brain function. Okay. Now, there's a part of where this
(04:02):
injury landed was in the cerebral ped uncle. So this
is part of sorry, Sarah, Sarah Beller ped uncle where
the back of your brain that controls like balance and
motor skills, your movement. It's where how these messages are communicated.
And there was bleeding there from the stab wound, which
(04:22):
means this critical portion of the brain was injured. Okay.
Brain doesn't like any blood, any irritation because that short
circuits at the signals can't get through. Okay, let's think
about it that way. That's highly concerning because they absolutely
saw bleeding with this, So she was physiologically alive when
that happened, so her movement isn't going to be affected.
(04:46):
Her ability to move. This is a devastating injury. Okay.
Then we're going to move lower down her neck now
again just to lay out the anatomy. Our neck has
seven vertebras, Okay, so when we say neck, that's called
the cervical region. So for abbreviation we say C. So
(05:08):
C one through seven are the seven cervical vertebrae, the
neck vertebrae the bones in our neck that help us
form our neck, and then are the cage basically formed
around the spinal cord in that area. Okay, So the
skull connects to the spinal column at C one. That's
(05:30):
a very tight connection. That's what between C one and
C two, they're special anatomy of those structures that allow
us to nod yes, no, side to side, round and
round without becoming injured. Okay, because that's a very stable setup. Now,
in Ellen's case, she was stabbed between C two and
(05:53):
C three, So the cervical vertebrate two and the cervical
vertebrate three, so high up. Okay, Remember we have all
of our neck is through seven, so we're in the
upper section of the cord. And I don't know if
I specified. C one starts at the base of the
skull and C seven is closer to the back of
the neck before the chest starts. Okay, so we're going
(06:16):
one being the highest, seven being the lowest. So just
to know the anatomy. So when you're talking about C
two through three, that is a critical area of the
spinal cord, and we have nerves coming out of every
level of the spinal cord. So again we use that
vertebral region C two nerves, C three nerves to talk
(06:39):
about what it's being supplied. Now, what I do want
to point out is that the arms are controlled by
C five six and seven. So a little bit lower
is where we are dealing with nerves to the arms. Okay,
Now why is this also important? And I'm blathering on
(07:00):
about this, Well, remember see five, six and seven. It
is controlling the arms. If we have an injury high
up on the neck. If you have an injury at
C one, basically that can be immediately fatal. Okay, where
the skull separates, because you're going to even injure that
brain stem right where the spinal cord connects. As soon
(07:22):
as we move a little bit lower, we're moving into
what's called the quadriplegia. Okay. So like when we say
someone is quadriplegic, that means they cannot they're paral their
arms and legs are paralyzed. Okay. So it's usually a
lower cervical uh vertebral body a server cervical injury. Okay.
(07:45):
And and this is where we really got to see,
like what's going on. So I have an injury above
where the arms are controlled. Okay. So this the stab
wound is documented as going through the verse to bray,
through the covering of the spinal cord and the spinal
cord is bulging through that wound. Let me tell you
(08:09):
what should not be bulging the spinal cord, okay, and
whether there's bleeding or not, whether it's in place or not.
I mean, any disruption to the spinal cord is markedly abnormal.
And you know I've talked about it before. I'm a
football fan. Well, we've seen on the field where someone
gets hit right and sometimes their spinal cord is stunned
(08:31):
where they can't move their arms and legs, but later
it heals and they can move it. But we know
just from a non penetrating injury like that shock, it
can affect the spinal cord. Okay. So here we have
a distinct wound into the spinal cord that's causing it
to shift or swell. That makes for a spinal cord
(08:52):
that's injured. And they were very wishy washy in the
report about this. And also I want to say that
the spinal cord was examined in a limited capacity where
they looked at it with the naked eye, but not
under the microscope. Okay, So taking that in totality, there's
(09:14):
no way in my mind that she could move her
arms from this injury. Okay. So basically anything above where
her arms needed the nerves to function, is now injured.
So how can she stab herself if the spinal cord
is injured, if the brainstem is injured, And that's really
(09:36):
the meat of it. Okay, that is my critical assessment. Now,
does she bleed from the other wounds? Yes, I'm not
negating that the other wounds contribute to her death. She
bled to death from the wounds. That was quite a
bit of blood in the sack around the heart, which
is called the pericardium. But all in all, that's how
(09:57):
she died. But this neurologic deep defect, right, not being
able to move your arms, not being able to have
motion motor control, to me as a critical aspect. Now
I'm going to sort of be an extremist. And if
I make one assumption, I e. That these wounds to
the back of the head and neck came early in
(10:19):
the array of injuries, Well, she can't move her arms,
she can't have defensive wounds, right, Okay, So that is
an assumption, okay, and I have no medical proof of that.
So this is now me playing. I'm just playing Devil's advocate.
But it could be one reason why she doesn't have
(10:39):
defensive wounds. Okay, And that is something I really wanted
to put out there that you know, the order. And
I again, this is a complete assumption on my part
to prove, you know, to make to sort of put
it out there. But I can't prove that, and I
don't want to be misconstrued about that. But could have
(11:00):
happened that way. And I don't think when you look
at the directionality of these stab wounds and the depth,
I just don't think a lot of the wounds on
the back can be achieved by her self step like
by she stabbing herself. That's just it's very awkward positions.
(11:23):
Now this takes me into sort of other issues, like
I have had stab wounds or cases that died of
sharp force injuries numerous okay, ten twenty fifty ninety that
were self inflicted. So it's not just the number that
is alarming. Now, is it alarming? Yes? I mean I
go to every case and I'm like, whoa, Nelly, we
(11:45):
need to figure this out and make sure this isn't
you know, oh, Doc, this is a this is a suicide. Wait, whoa?
You know? That's my conclusion and I go through step
by step. And when I say I go through step
by step anything abnormal like this, I go to the scene.
I used to go to the crime scene so like
because I want to see it, you know, and I
need the police to work it through with me. There's
(12:06):
often times I'm calling blood spatter experts because I'm not one.
You know, we're dumping this day and age. We have
so much electronic data, like video surveillance. We need to
make sure I'm looking at psychiatric history. You know. I
had one case in Rhode Island that was ninety plus
stab wounds and a schizophrenic woman but in very you know,
(12:29):
damaging areas not only her torso but her genitalia. And
I was just horrified, like what is happening? Because it
makes you think of a sexual crime, right, like someone's
really mad at her. But after we went through the scene,
the bloodstain pattern, you can see one set of footprints
moving around. She had schizophrenia that was untreated, like no
one else was coming in or out of the apartment.
(12:52):
Like it took weeks, you know, I'm summarizing it, but
this was a very detailed process, lots back and forth
before I was able to stomach it does that make
sense and call it a suicide? So it's not that
I haven't and it's not you know, it's horrific and
people think, oh my got twenty stabus that automatically makes
(13:13):
it a homicide. No, it's not automatic. But you have
to see what is effected, is it plausible? What is
the other history? And if you think about it, any
history of mental illness does not make you suicidal. I
think that is also you know too much to assume.
I mean, mental illness is widespread, there's no stigma about it.
(13:36):
I think more people. I wish more people had the
help they need, you know. And can it be associated
with suicidality? Of course, right, that's what we worry about.
But any sort of stress or any sort of history
doesn't automatically just support suicide either, you know. And as
I think I've talked about in the past, I get
(13:58):
all the medical history I can because that's part of
the investigation. But looking at Ellen's stab wounds, these two
are the ones that really like gave me pause.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
As I described, let me ask you this, what do
the bruises along with the stab wounds and insize or
say to you.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Bruising is I'm more cautious about. Okay. What I mean
is there are a lot of bruises that were described
and some were not described that I think is malpracticed
because people have even heard me in court. They'll ask,
you know, they'll be like, why is a quarter inch
(14:41):
nick on the shin important? You know, when we have
a gunshot wound case, do you understand it has nothing
to do with any of it? And it's because my
job at autopsy is to mark everything. Okay, anything that's
abnormal with the body needs to be described. Now. Am
I going to call that a major injury if the
ey's been shot six times? Obviously not right, but you
(15:04):
never know. And any abrasion, right, Like I remember a
kid had a drug overdose and he had all these
scratches on his forearm. Why And I said, where are
these from? Oh? He got a new kitten, right, So
I just have to be able to explain and notate
the injuries. Did it have anything to do with his death?
Obviously not, you know. But so the job of the
(15:27):
forensic pathologist is really to do a very detailed one
over on the body and document everything. And that's why
we also take pictures right to correlate with the descriptions.
So that is what bothered me about this case. And
then anytime you have you know, you leave out an
(15:48):
injury or injuries, then that weakens your total assessment, your believability.
So that's really what frustrated me about this. Now, there's
been a lot of studies on bruises that show you
can't just look at a bruise and tell how old
it is, okay, And this comes up a lot in
child abuse because people just try to date bruises. So,
(16:14):
you know, I don't want to get into the literature
too much, but you can't just look at a bruise.
I mean, if you hit Cheryl, if I hit you
and then you hit me with the hammer, even with
the same force on the arm, where two different people,
we're gonna bruise differently. You know, we may heal differently.
It could be our you know what medications were on
(16:36):
our age, our genetics.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Oh yeah, I have one sister she bruises super easy
and another one that Harley bruises at all correct.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
And they could both bump their shin or bump their
elbow right, And so you cannot just look at a
color of a bruise. So it's improper to say there
are bruises in various stages of healing. Okay, I don't
like that, because you can if you hit me with
a hammer on my thigh and then hit me on
the shin, right, my shin has hardly any meat on it,
(17:08):
my thighs have much more meat on it. Right. So obviously,
even though it's the same force, the same hammer, the
same hit, if you will, just the nature of the location, well,
the bruise will be different, okay, and the how we
each heal is different. Are are what we're affected with, genetics, medications, whatever.
(17:28):
So I never say bruises in different stages of healing.
I will say there are multiple bruises, okay. But sometimes
I even have to and this gets into other deaths,
like police custody deaths, where I have to look, I
have to cut into deeper tissues like the back or
the butt that may not be apparent, like if you're so,
(17:51):
if it's a thick area of the body, you can
have bleeding inside, but the bruise you can't. You don't
even see it on the surface. Okay, So that's the
depth of the tissues that are affected, et cetera. All
play into how a color can be different. Now there's
papers that say, like, if you look at it under
the microscope, which was not done in this case, you
(18:11):
can sort of get a better idea of when the
bruise was there, like eighteen hours. But we're talking almost
a day before you can see a reaction to it,
you know what I mean. And so the one thing
that I will say is she had bruises, and what's
happening is, yes, they're there. I cannot say that they
(18:35):
were associated with the stabbing assault, or they could have
been from another assault, or they could have been or
some of them could be from another assault, some of
them could be just knocking around exercising whatever it is.
Do you understand that? So, that to me is what
I make of the bruises. I don't want to overinterpret them.
(18:56):
She was quite thin.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
I just think thirty one one that's a lot of bruises.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
That's a lot, right, And for someone who's not a toddler, right,
you know little kids shocking around.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Right, Yeah, she's not a toddler. She's not a professional athlete,
she's not right clumsy.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
I don't know how she sustained them, but it would
be improper to automatically assume that they were related to
this assault.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Understood, but her heart had to be beaten for that
to occur.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Correct, Correct, Because a bruce is bleeding. Okay, it's a
crush injury, so it's a different type of injury. Your
tissue gets crushed and then you have bleeding into it.
So you know, without getting further into that, a bruce
is an injury. So she has to be alive when
she sustained it. But how she sustained it and when
(19:49):
she sustained it, I cannot say. So to then assume
that all of these could some of them be? Definitely?
Do you understand? But I can't say all of them
were a theater with this only this incident.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
In your professional opinion, how important would it be for
her parents to be able to sit down with five experts,
ten experts that had knowledge intimate knowledge of the autopsy
and explain to them how this ruling could possibly be.
(20:25):
I mean, even what you said, and for people to understand.
You know, that's why they call it a sea collar.
Like just that limited area told you so much? How
could her mama ever move off of this and move forward?
I would be losing my mind.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Right, I'm a girl mom. I've said it probably on
every episode because I talk about my daughter so much
like she is my life force. And I'm not being
over dramatic, you know, And so I don't know. I
don't know. I think, you know, her parents' courage to
me to keep fighting is really remarkable. And I'm not
saying this because I thought about this as I've spoken
(21:06):
about the case during the week. The fact that this
has gone on for years, you know, really just is
a power of their love and they want the correct answer.
You know. I don't know anything else about the dynamics
of the family, the dynamics between the fiancees fans. I
mean that goes beyond the medicine and beyond what's important
(21:28):
to me in this case. But I think to me,
it would be very difficult knowing what I do to
provide closure to them with the ruling that's just been issued.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Doctor Pria, Thank you so much. This case has bothered
me from day one, and I just appreciate the way
you and only you could walk us through it. So
thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Thank you for having me on this. I know I
came off pretty passionate, and I do want to say
I approached it with caution when I first, you know,
was sort of peripherally involved because of the work and Sarah,
Kayleen and you know Hulu it. I actually had not
followed it. So most people know I don't really follow
(22:15):
cases unless I'm asked to comment on them, right. I
don't get involved because we all have our own load
of work to do, right And so it's as I've
been really digging into the medicine behind it, the forensic pathology,
that I could make statements like I did this in
these two episodes.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Well, I appreciate it, and you know, I know that
our listeners are going to get a lot out of it.
There's just so much information, and again, to me, the
way you lay it out, it's pretty compelling that I
appreciate you so much
Y'all, Welcome to Pathology with Doctor Pria, Ellen Greenberg, Part two.
So Doctor Pria last week was giving us a great
introduction to autopsy one on one and she started to
explain the injuries that she notated with Ellen Greenberg. Now
(00:30):
she's going to jump right back into where she was
where she's talking about the two injuries on the back
of the head that would have rendered Ellen incapable of
stabbing herself even more. And that's critical because as y'all know,
when she was found the knife was in her chest,
which would have meant there was at least one more
(00:52):
stab wound after those two that she's already pinpointed. Doctor Pria,
Welcome back and thank you again for taking us through
this important case.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yes, so I do want to, you know, just revisit
the issue that when I look at anybody who's been
stabbed multiple times, it's the order is you know, is
impossible to determine unless it's on video. Okay, now we
know the last stab wounds the one with the knife,
and we can we need to pay attention at autopsy
whether there's bleeding with each wound in stab or in
(01:26):
size or cutting wound to see if it was while
she was physiologically alive. Okay, So that is where we're
talking about. Now. We know that the chest wound is
the last one because it has a knife in it.
That's the only one I can tell. Okay. I can't
tell you if it's neighbor on the chest or the
neck was first, middle, you know, second to last. We're
(01:51):
just gonna have to look at each one. Okay. Now,
when these wounds are described, we just we can't say
wound number one two because I think that implies too
much of an order. So like what's done in this case,
I always do ABCD and I put a huge caveat
at the top of my report that these are labeled
(02:13):
purely for descriptive purposes and in any order in which
they were sustained is not implied. Okay, So just remember that,
even though I'll talk about letterings that have been assigned,
we just know that they happened before she died with
the knife in her chest. Okay. That being said, diagrams
(02:33):
that were shown to me, generated separately by other parties
this week had two wounds N and T. Okay, and
I don't recall I don't remember which one was which.
If N was in the base of the skull, and
T was at the at the spinal column. So I'll
take those letters out and just refer to these wounds
(02:54):
by location for clarity. So there's one at the base
of her skull that goes into the skull through the dura. Okay.
The dura is the thick covering over the brain and
brain stem and into a very critical part of the
brain stem that controls motor function. Now that's a lot
(03:17):
of language. Okay, what does that mean. She was stabbed
in the back of her head at the base of
the head and the knife cut through all of the
structures into the brain tissue. Okay. Now, the part of
the brain tissue that it affected is called the brain stem. Okay,
as you guys are listening, as I'm sitting here talking
(03:39):
a mile a minute, we're not thinking about heartbeat and breathing, right.
That happens all by itself, and it's the brain stem
that we call sometimes the reptilian brain because you know,
reptiles are simple, but they're still alive. This is housekeeping
brain function. Okay. Now, there's a part of where this
(04:02):
injury landed was in the cerebral ped uncle. So this
is part of sorry, Sarah, Sarah Beller ped uncle where
the back of your brain that controls like balance and
motor skills, your movement. It's where how these messages are communicated.
And there was bleeding there from the stab wound, which
(04:22):
means this critical portion of the brain was injured. Okay.
Brain doesn't like any blood, any irritation because that short
circuits at the signals can't get through. Okay, let's think
about it that way. That's highly concerning because they absolutely
saw bleeding with this, So she was physiologically alive when
that happened, so her movement isn't going to be affected.
(04:46):
Her ability to move. This is a devastating injury. Okay.
Then we're going to move lower down her neck now
again just to lay out the anatomy. Our neck has
seven vertebras, Okay, so when we say neck, that's called
the cervical region. So for abbreviation we say C. So
(05:08):
C one through seven are the seven cervical vertebrae, the
neck vertebrae the bones in our neck that help us
form our neck, and then are the cage basically formed
around the spinal cord in that area. Okay, So the
skull connects to the spinal column at C one. That's
(05:30):
a very tight connection. That's what between C one and
C two, they're special anatomy of those structures that allow
us to nod yes, no, side to side, round and
round without becoming injured. Okay, because that's a very stable setup. Now,
in Ellen's case, she was stabbed between C two and
(05:53):
C three, So the cervical vertebrate two and the cervical
vertebrate three, so high up. Okay, Remember we have all
of our neck is through seven, so we're in the
upper section of the cord. And I don't know if
I specified. C one starts at the base of the
skull and C seven is closer to the back of
the neck before the chest starts. Okay, so we're going
(06:16):
one being the highest, seven being the lowest. So just
to know the anatomy. So when you're talking about C
two through three, that is a critical area of the
spinal cord, and we have nerves coming out of every
level of the spinal cord. So again we use that
vertebral region C two nerves, C three nerves to talk
(06:39):
about what it's being supplied. Now, what I do want
to point out is that the arms are controlled by
C five six and seven. So a little bit lower
is where we are dealing with nerves to the arms. Okay,
Now why is this also important? And I'm blathering on
(07:00):
about this, Well, remember see five, six and seven. It
is controlling the arms. If we have an injury high
up on the neck. If you have an injury at
C one, basically that can be immediately fatal. Okay, where
the skull separates, because you're going to even injure that
brain stem right where the spinal cord connects. As soon
(07:22):
as we move a little bit lower, we're moving into
what's called the quadriplegia. Okay. So like when we say
someone is quadriplegic, that means they cannot they're paral their
arms and legs are paralyzed. Okay. So it's usually a
lower cervical uh vertebral body a server cervical injury. Okay.
(07:45):
And and this is where we really got to see,
like what's going on. So I have an injury above
where the arms are controlled. Okay. So this the stab
wound is documented as going through the verse to bray,
through the covering of the spinal cord and the spinal
cord is bulging through that wound. Let me tell you
(08:09):
what should not be bulging the spinal cord, okay, and
whether there's bleeding or not, whether it's in place or not.
I mean, any disruption to the spinal cord is markedly abnormal.
And you know I've talked about it before. I'm a
football fan. Well, we've seen on the field where someone
gets hit right and sometimes their spinal cord is stunned
(08:31):
where they can't move their arms and legs, but later
it heals and they can move it. But we know
just from a non penetrating injury like that shock, it
can affect the spinal cord. Okay. So here we have
a distinct wound into the spinal cord that's causing it
to shift or swell. That makes for a spinal cord
(08:52):
that's injured. And they were very wishy washy in the
report about this. And also I want to say that
the spinal cord was examined in a limited capacity where
they looked at it with the naked eye, but not
under the microscope. Okay, So taking that in totality, there's
(09:14):
no way in my mind that she could move her
arms from this injury. Okay. So basically anything above where
her arms needed the nerves to function, is now injured.
So how can she stab herself if the spinal cord
is injured, if the brainstem is injured, And that's really
(09:36):
the meat of it. Okay, that is my critical assessment. Now,
does she bleed from the other wounds? Yes, I'm not
negating that the other wounds contribute to her death. She
bled to death from the wounds. That was quite a
bit of blood in the sack around the heart, which
is called the pericardium. But all in all, that's how
(09:57):
she died. But this neurologic deep defect, right, not being
able to move your arms, not being able to have
motion motor control, to me as a critical aspect. Now
I'm going to sort of be an extremist. And if
I make one assumption, I e. That these wounds to
the back of the head and neck came early in
(10:19):
the array of injuries, Well, she can't move her arms,
she can't have defensive wounds, right, Okay, So that is
an assumption, okay, and I have no medical proof of that.
So this is now me playing. I'm just playing Devil's advocate.
But it could be one reason why she doesn't have
(10:39):
defensive wounds. Okay, And that is something I really wanted
to put out there that you know, the order. And
I again, this is a complete assumption on my part
to prove, you know, to make to sort of put
it out there. But I can't prove that, and I
don't want to be misconstrued about that. But could have
(11:00):
happened that way. And I don't think when you look
at the directionality of these stab wounds and the depth,
I just don't think a lot of the wounds on
the back can be achieved by her self step like
by she stabbing herself. That's just it's very awkward positions.
(11:23):
Now this takes me into sort of other issues, like
I have had stab wounds or cases that died of
sharp force injuries numerous okay, ten twenty fifty ninety that
were self inflicted. So it's not just the number that
is alarming. Now, is it alarming? Yes? I mean I
go to every case and I'm like, whoa, Nelly, we
(11:45):
need to figure this out and make sure this isn't
you know, oh, Doc, this is a this is a suicide. Wait, whoa?
You know? That's my conclusion and I go through step
by step. And when I say I go through step
by step anything abnormal like this, I go to the scene.
I used to go to the crime scene so like
because I want to see it, you know, and I
need the police to work it through with me. There's
(12:06):
often times I'm calling blood spatter experts because I'm not one.
You know, we're dumping this day and age. We have
so much electronic data, like video surveillance. We need to
make sure I'm looking at psychiatric history. You know. I
had one case in Rhode Island that was ninety plus
stab wounds and a schizophrenic woman but in very you know,
(12:29):
damaging areas not only her torso but her genitalia. And
I was just horrified, like what is happening? Because it
makes you think of a sexual crime, right, like someone's
really mad at her. But after we went through the scene,
the bloodstain pattern, you can see one set of footprints
moving around. She had schizophrenia that was untreated, like no
one else was coming in or out of the apartment.
(12:52):
Like it took weeks, you know, I'm summarizing it, but
this was a very detailed process, lots back and forth
before I was able to stomach it does that make
sense and call it a suicide? So it's not that
I haven't and it's not you know, it's horrific and
people think, oh my got twenty stabus that automatically makes
(13:13):
it a homicide. No, it's not automatic. But you have
to see what is effected, is it plausible? What is
the other history? And if you think about it, any
history of mental illness does not make you suicidal. I
think that is also you know too much to assume.
I mean, mental illness is widespread, there's no stigma about it.
(13:36):
I think more people. I wish more people had the
help they need, you know. And can it be associated
with suicidality? Of course, right, that's what we worry about.
But any sort of stress or any sort of history
doesn't automatically just support suicide either, you know. And as
I think I've talked about in the past, I get
(13:58):
all the medical history I can because that's part of
the investigation. But looking at Ellen's stab wounds, these two
are the ones that really like gave me pause.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
As I described, let me ask you this, what do
the bruises along with the stab wounds and insize or
say to you.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Bruising is I'm more cautious about. Okay. What I mean
is there are a lot of bruises that were described
and some were not described that I think is malpracticed
because people have even heard me in court. They'll ask,
you know, they'll be like, why is a quarter inch
(14:41):
nick on the shin important? You know, when we have
a gunshot wound case, do you understand it has nothing
to do with any of it? And it's because my
job at autopsy is to mark everything. Okay, anything that's
abnormal with the body needs to be described. Now. Am
I going to call that a major injury if the
ey's been shot six times? Obviously not right, but you
(15:04):
never know. And any abrasion, right, Like I remember a
kid had a drug overdose and he had all these
scratches on his forearm. Why And I said, where are
these from? Oh? He got a new kitten, right, So
I just have to be able to explain and notate
the injuries. Did it have anything to do with his death?
Obviously not, you know. But so the job of the
(15:27):
forensic pathologist is really to do a very detailed one
over on the body and document everything. And that's why
we also take pictures right to correlate with the descriptions.
So that is what bothered me about this case. And
then anytime you have you know, you leave out an
(15:48):
injury or injuries, then that weakens your total assessment, your believability.
So that's really what frustrated me about this. Now, there's
been a lot of studies on bruises that show you
can't just look at a bruise and tell how old
it is, okay, And this comes up a lot in
child abuse because people just try to date bruises. So,
(16:14):
you know, I don't want to get into the literature
too much, but you can't just look at a bruise.
I mean, if you hit Cheryl, if I hit you
and then you hit me with the hammer, even with
the same force on the arm, where two different people,
we're gonna bruise differently. You know, we may heal differently.
It could be our you know what medications were on
(16:36):
our age, our genetics.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Oh yeah, I have one sister she bruises super easy
and another one that Harley bruises at all correct.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
And they could both bump their shin or bump their
elbow right, And so you cannot just look at a
color of a bruise. So it's improper to say there
are bruises in various stages of healing. Okay, I don't
like that, because you can if you hit me with
a hammer on my thigh and then hit me on
the shin, right, my shin has hardly any meat on it,
(17:08):
my thighs have much more meat on it. Right. So obviously,
even though it's the same force, the same hammer, the
same hit, if you will, just the nature of the location, well,
the bruise will be different, okay, and the how we
each heal is different. Are are what we're affected with, genetics, medications, whatever.
(17:28):
So I never say bruises in different stages of healing.
I will say there are multiple bruises, okay. But sometimes
I even have to and this gets into other deaths,
like police custody deaths, where I have to look, I
have to cut into deeper tissues like the back or
the butt that may not be apparent, like if you're so,
(17:51):
if it's a thick area of the body, you can
have bleeding inside, but the bruise you can't. You don't
even see it on the surface. Okay, So that's the
depth of the tissues that are affected, et cetera. All
play into how a color can be different. Now there's
papers that say, like, if you look at it under
the microscope, which was not done in this case, you
(18:11):
can sort of get a better idea of when the
bruise was there, like eighteen hours. But we're talking almost
a day before you can see a reaction to it,
you know what I mean. And so the one thing
that I will say is she had bruises, and what's
happening is, yes, they're there. I cannot say that they
(18:35):
were associated with the stabbing assault, or they could have
been from another assault, or they could have been or
some of them could be from another assault, some of
them could be just knocking around exercising whatever it is.
Do you understand that? So, that to me is what
I make of the bruises. I don't want to overinterpret them.
(18:56):
She was quite thin.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
I just think thirty one one that's a lot of bruises.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
That's a lot, right, And for someone who's not a toddler, right,
you know little kids shocking around.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Right, Yeah, she's not a toddler. She's not a professional athlete,
she's not right clumsy.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
I don't know how she sustained them, but it would
be improper to automatically assume that they were related to
this assault.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Understood, but her heart had to be beaten for that
to occur.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Correct, Correct, Because a bruce is bleeding. Okay, it's a
crush injury, so it's a different type of injury. Your
tissue gets crushed and then you have bleeding into it.
So you know, without getting further into that, a bruce
is an injury. So she has to be alive when
she sustained it. But how she sustained it and when
(19:49):
she sustained it, I cannot say. So to then assume
that all of these could some of them be? Definitely?
Do you understand? But I can't say all of them
were a theater with this only this incident.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
In your professional opinion, how important would it be for
her parents to be able to sit down with five experts,
ten experts that had knowledge intimate knowledge of the autopsy
and explain to them how this ruling could possibly be.
(20:25):
I mean, even what you said, and for people to understand.
You know, that's why they call it a sea collar.
Like just that limited area told you so much? How
could her mama ever move off of this and move forward?
I would be losing my mind.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Right, I'm a girl mom. I've said it probably on
every episode because I talk about my daughter so much
like she is my life force. And I'm not being
over dramatic, you know, And so I don't know. I
don't know. I think, you know, her parents' courage to
me to keep fighting is really remarkable. And I'm not
saying this because I thought about this as I've spoken
(21:06):
about the case during the week. The fact that this
has gone on for years, you know, really just is
a power of their love and they want the correct answer.
You know. I don't know anything else about the dynamics
of the family, the dynamics between the fiancees fans. I
mean that goes beyond the medicine and beyond what's important
(21:28):
to me in this case. But I think to me,
it would be very difficult knowing what I do to
provide closure to them with the ruling that's just been issued.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Doctor Pria, Thank you so much. This case has bothered
me from day one, and I just appreciate the way
you and only you could walk us through it. So
thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Thank you for having me on this. I know I
came off pretty passionate, and I do want to say
I approached it with caution when I first, you know,
was sort of peripherally involved because of the work and Sarah,
Kayleen and you know Hulu it. I actually had not
followed it. So most people know I don't really follow
(22:15):
cases unless I'm asked to comment on them, right. I
don't get involved because we all have our own load
of work to do, right And so it's as I've
been really digging into the medicine behind it, the forensic pathology,
that I could make statements like I did this in
these two episodes.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Well, I appreciate it, and you know, I know that
our listeners are going to get a lot out of it.
There's just so much information, and again, to me, the
way you lay it out, it's pretty compelling that I
appreciate you so much
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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