October 22, 2025 • 54 mins
Behind every major shift in American law enforcement is someone willing to risk it all. In this episode of Zone 7, Sheryl McCollum speaks with retired FBI Special Agent Joe Pistone, better known as Donnie Brasco. His six-year infiltration of the Mafia redefined undercover work and exposed key figures within the Bonanno and Colombo families. Pistone reflects on the danger, isolation, and moral weight of living inside the mob, as well as the lasting personal cost of pursuing justice from within.
Guest Bio and Links:
Joe Pistone is a retired FBI Special Agent best known for his six-year undercover assignment infiltrating the Bonanno and Colombo Mafia families under the alias of Donnie Brasco. His work led to more than 200 convictions and remains one of the FBI’s most significant undercover operations. Pistone is the author of Donnie Brasco: My Undercover Life in the Mafia and continues to lecture worldwide on organized crime, covert operations, and law-enforcement ethics.
Highlights:
- (0:00) Sheryl welcomes retired FBI Special Agent Joe Pistone to Zone 7
- (2:15) The reality of deep undercover work: seven days a week and six months before any real mob conversations
- (7:15) Building a believable cover as a jewel thief through gem school, lock-picking, and street “swag” pricing
- (13:15) The line between survival and protecting citizen inside a violent criminal world
- (15:15) Sonny Black knowingly walks into his own execution after leaving his money, keys, and ring at the Motion Lounge
- (22:15) Mapping the mob, the Commission, family hierarchy, and how crews coordinated territory
- (31:45) Undercover is 24/7, with trust built over coffee, hard rolls with butter, and cartoons in a Brooklyn apartment
- (35:15) On the verge of becoming a made man before the FBI shut down the operation
- (37:30) The aftermath: more than 200 convictions, 17 trials, and a $500,000 contract placed on Pistone’s life
- (45:15) The sit-downs with Tony Mirra: Pistone describes how Sonny Black defended his life three times and reflects on the reality of undercover work
- (50:45) Hollywood vs. reality: the true story behind the movie Donnie Brasco
Enjoying Zone 7? Leave a rating and review. Your feedback helps others find the show and supports our mission to educate, engage, and inspire.
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Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award-winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnline, forensic and crime scene expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and co-author of the textbook Cold Case: Pathways to Justice. She is the founder and director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, a national collaboration that advances techniques for solving cold cases and assists families and law enforcement with unsolved homicides, missing persons, and kidnappings.
Social Links:
- Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
- Twitter: @ColdCaseTips
- Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
- Instagram: @officialzone7podcast
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
If not for him, we would not have known about
the American mafia. The FBI didn't know how they were
set up, if there were families, the hierarchy. They had
no idea the crimes they were involved in. We had
no idea what was right under our noses, so to speak,
(00:29):
with the mafia. Our guest Tonight was tagged by the
FBI to go under cover for six months. They were like, hey,
get in there, see what you can find out, get
back out. We'll take it from there. He spent six
years under cover. He lived within the Colombo crime family.
(00:50):
He risked his life every single minute of every single
day for six months. Y'all, it is an absolute honor
to welcome retired FBI Special Agent Joseph Pistone to Zone seven. Sir, welcome,
(01:11):
welcome to Zone seven.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Well, I appreciate you having me on, Cheryl, thank you
very much.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Let me tell you, this is a privilege. This is
something that very few people get the opportunity to do,
and I am just grateful that you are spending any
amount of time with me and our listeners. It's important.
Your work was historic. Nobody, nobody, I don't think, can
(01:38):
overstate the importance of what you did. You single handedly
took down the mall.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I don't know single handedly, but I had a big,
a big part in it. This was a big operation
that lasted six years, and I eventually brought in a
couple other undercovers in different cities, but I was the
main undercover, and the Columbo crime family was the first
(02:11):
family I infiltrated, and then I went over to the Bananos.
So I was with the Columbos for about six months,
and then I went over to the Bananos and stayed
with the Bananos for five and a half years, for
a total of six years total for the operation.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
And you know, you and I spoke, and there's just
certain things that would give you away, Like we were
laughing that I couldn't have infiltrated them with my accent alone.
I mean, they would know I was not from the
Bronx or Uptown, right, So you had to be perfect
from the watch you wore, to the clothes to the
(02:52):
way you spoke, the slang terms that you learned to use.
I mean you had to be perfect, Joe, every minute,
every day.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Well, yeah, unfortunately, you know, we can only make one mistake,
and you know they can make as many mistakes as
they want. But in the undercover business, especially when you
infiltrated in a deep cover situation, you have you're allowed
one mistake, and unfortunately that mistake could get you killed.
(03:25):
So you do you have to be on your game
twenty four to seven in this.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Business twenty four to seven because you're dealing with people
that they're not trusting. As a rule, they don't know
who you are. They're not just going to let you in.
It wasn't like you were able just to walk into
the mob bar and go, you know, hey boys, I
want to join. I mean, you had to really take
your time. How long did you set up just at
(03:55):
that bar, going in there every day every other day
so they would know your face?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Several bars or restaurants that I frequented, uh, every day
every night? Actually uh? And that's you know, in this
type of situation, which which is deep cover, it's a
seven day a week job. Uh, you know, because the
mob we see you Monday through Friday. Where the hell
are you Saturday and Sunday? How Come you're never around
(04:22):
Saturday or Sunday? So you have to dedicate it uh
to being a seven day or week week job. Ah.
And It took me about six months before I had
any conversation with anybody regarding any any activities, mob activities
(04:43):
or UH introduced to different monsters within the different families
in New York City. So it was a long process.
It was I was out there by myself. I had
my own apartment in New York City. H I moved
out of my residence. My family actually was then moved
(05:07):
across across country. So and it's a lonely existence. Once
you've infiltrated, your whole existence, your whole social life is
now with the organized crime group that you've infiltrated.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
And I think a lot of people don't understand. I mean,
there's going to be some young rookies and some young
detectives listening this, going, oh okay, I get to go
to bars every night for six months and get paid
to do it. But you're away from your family and
you're already risk in your life. If they had any
inklin of who you were, you would have been dead
(05:46):
right then.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, you know, initially, if they suspect you of anything,
it's not that you're an undercover law enforcement it's that
you're an informant, and you know they don't have any
reservations about killing informants. They might think twice if they
think your law enforcement. But the first the thing that
(06:11):
comes through was that this guy's an informant, he's working
for the police. So chances are if that's how they
feel and how they really think, they're going to kill
you right there.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Yeah, so being an untouchable, that code of silence is real.
Did you totally understand that prior to your undercover work
or did you learn just how serious they were about
not being a rat?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Well, fortunately I grew up in that environment. I grew
up in an all Italian neighborhood. I went to high
school with guys who fathers were in the mob. I
knew mob guys from the neighborhood, so I was pretty
well versed in how the mob operated before I went
(07:01):
into law enforcement. Like I said, just growing up. So
that helped me an awful lot. Helped me to infiltrate,
knowing how to act, and once I did infiltrate, it
helped me again stay alive and gain information because, like
(07:22):
I say, you know, that's an environment that I was
used to as a child, growing up, going through high school.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
You know a lot of people think undercover work, Oh
you know, that's so sexy. I want to do that.
But you were brilliant in one thing. You knew as
an FBI agent you couldn't infiltrate the mob and kill somebody.
So you had to figure out what am I going
to do for a living? Like, how am I going
to make them want to use me? Come to me?
(07:52):
Tell everybody what you did to make sure once you
were in you could hold up your end of the
bargain bringing them money.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Well, yeah, I mean, you know, the whole purpose of
anybody in the mob is to be an earner, to
again earn, bring money in and being an undercover agent
law enforcement, you can't get involved in violence unless it's
for your own protection or protect the citizen. So my
(08:26):
criminal profession was a jewel thief. Now, on the other hand,
whatever criminal profession that you say that you are, you
better know about it. So I went to I went
to school, learned about diamonds, learned about precious gems. I
(08:46):
pretty much knew about that subject. And then you have
to you know, if you're a jewel thief, there are
other things you have to know. You have to know
how to pick locks. You have to know about alarm
system them. You have to know about safes. So I
also got schooled in lock picking, alarms and safes because
(09:10):
what is a lot of what is the downfall of
a lot of undercover agents is they say there's something,
but they don't know anything about the profession that they
say they are. And you can't you know, you can't
bs through through a profession, and you can't say that
(09:31):
you know, you don't want to go into a profession
saying that you're a stick up man or you're a
leg breaker, because once you get once you infiltrate, you're
going to be expected to do whatever you say your
profession is. So you have to think out your profession
very carefully and you have to know all aspects of
your criminal profession.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
How long did you go to school to learn about
saves and luck picking and alarms?
Speaker 2 (09:59):
I went to jewelry school UH for about I think
it was a three three month course or four month
course uh and UH once I felt comfortable there and
the other aspects of it I learned from you know,
from the technicians in the FBI that were proficient in
(10:23):
uh in uh lock picking and alarm systems and that's
so good.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Though, because again, if you're bringing them a bag of
diamonds that are lose, you've got to know the value.
You got to know a good one from a bad one,
a clear one, the.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Cut well, and the main thing is that you know,
you can't be telling them tiffany prices if it's supposed
to be stolen. You know, what's what's the swag price?
What's the street price? Right?
Speaker 1 (10:53):
So?
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Uh? And you and you have to know the quality
and uh and the clarity you know.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
So and the swag price is important because honey, you've
got to cut it up.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
That's exactly right, because uh, you want to if you
if you give it to a fence, you know he's
going to make money. So you have to say the
price you want where you know that everybody is going
to get as they say what their beaks, you know,
have a piece of bread and eat. So ah, there's
(11:28):
a lot to go into undercover and undercover. And you're right.
A lot of young a lot of young officers, they
think it's what they see on television, you know, and
it's not. It's it's not as easy as it looks
on television. And another thing too.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Is.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
You got to make sure that you don't. You know,
you stay within your moral compass when you go undercover.
You know, I do a lot of lecturing and teaching
at at undercover schools around the country and overseas. I
do a lot overseas, and I explained to these young
(12:15):
officers that you know, this is not this is not TV,
this is real. You know, you're dealing with your life
and you have to do what you believe in. For instance,
I'm not a drinker. I never was a drinker. Well,
I didn't drink that much when I was undercover. I mean,
(12:37):
you know my capacity even to this day, even growing up,
I can't finish a whole ball of beer. And when
I worked undercover, I did the same thing. I drink
maybe one glass of wine with dinner and a lot
of undercovers. Again, they think that all bad guys drinkers,
(13:00):
All bad guys, you know, curse and swear, and you know,
you have to be yourself. Basically, you have to be
yourself because everybody has a personality and everybody has a
moral compass, and you have to stay within your personality
(13:21):
and your moral compass.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
When you were Donnie Brasco and knowing that within the mob,
you could not refuse a job from a boss. How
did you maneuver to make sure you didn't get yourself
in a situation where you had to go break somebody's leg?
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Well, because I was not a leg breaker. I mean
near the end of my career. When I say my career,
near the end of the operation, I was giving contracts
to kill somebody. Now obviously you know I wasn't just
going out flat kill somebody. I was fortunate enough that
the person that I give I was given a contract
on was on the land. That means he was running, uh,
(14:08):
And I couldn't find them, and the FBI couldn't find them.
So but you know, again, it all depends on the situation.
It depends on on your own life. That's a hard
answer question to answer only because it depends on the situation. Now,
(14:30):
I'll be honest with you. If it's between my life
and a gangster's life, yeah, it ain't going to be
my life. It's going to be the gangsters. It's going
to be the gangster's life. But on the other hand,
if it's me or a citizen, then I protect a
citizen uh and put my life on the line. But
(14:54):
I'm not putting my life on a life or a gangster.
So because the people that you're dealing with, I mean,
the people that I dealt with, you know, they you know,
they had killed five, ten, fifteen people themselves, so they
only going to have any problem killing me if they
had to.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
That's right. Absolutely. Let's talk about August fourteenth, nineteen eighty one,
when Sonny Black walks into the motion lounge bar.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
What happened. To give a little backstory for those that
don't know, Sonny Block was a top ranking captain in
the Banano crime family and he was actually my captain
in the family. That means that I reported to Sonny
Block and had had when it had come out that
(15:44):
I was an FBI agent working undercover. At first, the
mafia didn't believe it. They thought the FBI had kidnapped
me and was trying to brainwash me and turn me
into an and inform it. And then finally when their
(16:05):
lawyers got you know, they for David's and everything, then
they realize, hey, this guy's really an FBI agent. And
so Sonny Black gets called to a meeting because he
was responsible for me. He had introduced me to a
(16:27):
lot of a lot of other mob guys, and he
gets called to a meeting. And before he goes to
the meeting, Now I want to emphasize there are gangsters,
and there are real gangsters, and Sonny Block was a
real gangster. Before he goes, he walks into the Motion Lounge,
(16:50):
which was our bar, his bar, it was our social club.
And he gives a bartenders money. He gives the bartenders
our key, his keys, except his car keys. He gives
him his diamond ring and tells him I just got
called to a sit down and I'm probably not coming back.
(17:13):
And then and then he calls his girlfriend and tells
her the same thing. Uh, And he did. He went
to the he went to the meeting, and once he
walked in that that door, they shot him. They killed them. Yeah,
I mean, you know, talk about a gangster. Yeah, he said,
(17:35):
I'm going to a sit down. I probably not coming back.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
I mean, he knew what he was walking into and
did it anyway.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
He didn't run, no, no, no, no, went right went
right to the address where he had to go and
walked in. And you know who kills your people that
you know? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Your friends?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Yeah, guys that he had known for years, guys that
were mobsters with him, and you know, yeah, so to me,
that's a real gangster.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Yeah, agreed. So, Tony Mirra, he introduced you to the
Banano Crown family. How did you know, Tony?
Speaker 2 (18:15):
I met Tony at a card game at a it
was really more in a card game. It was a
gambling den that was run by the mafia, and I
had met Tony Tony there And when I left the Columbos,
(18:35):
I hooked up with Tony Mirra and he introduced me
actually into the Banano family and they end up killing
him too. His own nephew shot him. His own nephew
shot him and for his you know, for bringing me
into the family. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Well, when you left the Colombo family, why did you
leave them? And did you make it known, you know,
the you were a free agent?
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Well, I left the Columbos because I got into a
I got into a beef physical confrontation with two of
the guys that were into in the crew, the Columbo
crew I was in. I got into a physical confrontation
with two guys and once I had that physical confrontation,
(19:25):
I knew that I couldn't hang around these guys anymore
because they didn't like me, and I didn't like them,
So it was going to come to somebody who was
going to get killed. So I went to Mike Capo.
The capo that was at the head of that was
a gentleman by name of Jilly. So I just went
to Jilly and told them that, you know, I don't
think I could hang around with you guys anymore, you know,
(19:50):
because of this confrontation that I had with these two guys.
So he understood, you know, they know what's going on,
they know the way the street. So that's when I
when I I helked up with Tony Mirror. Uh, when
I went back to the to the.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Card games, that physical confrontation probably made you look more legit.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Well yeah, I mean, you know, look, there's certain things
you can shake hands on, and there's certain things you can't.
There's certain things that the only thing they understand is
a physical confrontation, and this was this was one where
I couldn't shake hands with him. Uh, So I initiated
(20:37):
a physical comfrontation and was fighting two guys actually until
they until they broke it up.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Okay, now let me ask you this. Prior to going undercover,
did you have an idea who you kind of wanted
to work with, if there was one group in particular,
or did you just wait till whoever came to you
and work from there.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Yeah, basically like that. I mean I had done other
undercovered jobs before that, before the sixth year one, and
I had just come off a year undercover where I
had infiltrated a bunch of car thi's that were still
in high end automobiles up and down the East Coast.
(21:22):
So it was whoever the criminal individuals were. It didn't
make any difference to me if I could get in
into the organization I did. I didn't you know, I
didn't pick and choose nationalities or ethnic groups. It were
just criminal groups.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
So and then at one point you learned there were
five families.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Well, basically we knew when I say, well, you know,
the FBI knew that you know about the five families.
What we didn't have is a lot of intelligence and
how they they interacted with each other. And we didn't
know a lot of the names of individuals that were
into different families. And I also was able to put
(22:12):
together again, uh, names to faces and who was an
actual member who was actually inducted into a family versus
who was an associate, somebody that was with the family
but not actually inducted into that family. So I was
able to together a lot of intelligence information besides criminal
(22:34):
uh criminal information uh, which which helped down the road
in all the all the cases against against the families. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yes, because of you, we knew there was a whole
you know, organization when the five families got together. We
didn't know anything about a commission that came from you.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
How the commission operated and how they how they it
up the country with the different families again, how they
interacted with each other in criminal activities, and how different
(23:17):
where they were allowed to you know, conduct their criminal activities,
which was very helpful in putting together other cases.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Right, because it wasn't just New York. I mean you
were learning things about Chicago and other places. You yourself
went to Florida.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Yeah, I actually was able to form a marriage between
the Banano family and the family in Milwaukee. I was
able to form a marriage between the Banano family and
Santa traffic Anti, the boss of of of Florida, which
was you know, which was a big deal actually, I
(23:55):
mean I was being able to marry up too families
to conduct illegal activities.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Yeah, now, sir, I'm will tell you you did more
than just marrying two families. You were so successful in
Florida that the Florida FBI had y'all under surveillance and
had no idea you were an agent.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
No, that was in New York too. That also was
in New York. You know, because there are different squads
that are working working different families and stuff. So, uh,
the other the other squads in New York, you know,
(24:38):
they're they had surveillance and you know, there's so many
agents that you don't know everybody, so they they had
all of any photographs that you see and me were
taken by surveillance teams that had no idea who I was.
They thought I was just just another gangster.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
But again that tells you and for the young officers
into tectives listening the way you carried yourself. You didn't
run around shooting your mouth off. You weren't telling women secrets,
you weren't violating the code. I mean, you lived this
lifestyle exactly.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
And what young officers have to remember you have to
be yourself. You know, you have to be yourself like
I say, you know, I was never a drinker, so
I never tried to keep up drinking with anybody. And
it's you know, sometimes you get the question is, you know, Donnie,
(25:38):
how come you you know, how come you're not drinking?
And I just tell them because I can, I can't
drink a whole beer. Nobody cares. I mean, you think
anybody cares that that you're not a drinker. It's but
like I say, young undercovers think that they have to
(25:59):
act like every gangster that there is. You don't. I've
never done a drug in my life, never ever, and
I wasn't about to do one when I worked under
cover either. And you know that's what not when I do,
I don't do that stuff.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
And you didn't brag, you didn't shoot your mouth off,
you didn't go home every weekend and tell all your
friends and family about it, exactly. I mean, we've got
some young folks. You know, you've seen it. They've got
a video camera in their pocket and they will take
crime scene video pictures. They do TikTok and uniform. I mean,
come on, you have.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
To know why you're there and why you're there. You're
a law enforcement officer. You're conducting an investigation, and it
just so happens that the investigation is undercover. I mean,
if you if you're out investigating a bank fraud, are
you going to you know, to put it all over
(27:01):
that you're investigating a bank fraud and you know the
banker is Joe blow Is whom you know who I'm investigating,
and so why would you do it undercover? You know?
I mean it's it's it's like I said, I teach
a lot undercover schools and I'm amazed that, you know,
(27:25):
especially today. Uh, I asked some of the uh are
you on Facebook? Yeah? Why are you on Facebook? Are
you're working undercover? Well that's not my real name. No,
it's not your real name, but you're on Facebook. You
got your family on Facebook, you got your family on
(27:46):
TikTok or Instagram. But you know, they think because it's
a different name. I said, are you kidding or what?
Speaker 1 (27:56):
But like you said, it's your face man. And I'll
tell you we had a kid got straight out of
the academy. I mean he may be graduated three days.
The next day. He has a full sleeve tattoo of
like the law enforcement flag. You know, nine one one's
my phone number. You know his badge number. And you know,
(28:18):
the first thing I said is, well, I guess you're
undercover careers over. You ain't even been on the street
five minutes and you're letting everybody know who and what
you are exactly.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
So like I say, you know, I I got to
shake my head at some of the some of them,
you know, with all the social media and it doesn't
take long now to find out who anybody is, you know, And.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
What's so silly, that's what we use to find perpetrators.
You don't think they're doing the opposite exactly. Well, as
you're living in this world, you are learning quickly, Like
you already have said, the people closest to you were
going to be the ones that kill you. And Michael
(29:04):
fran says his own father didn't he put a hit
out on him.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Well, he didn't put a hit out on him, but
when he went to a sit down, he didn't stick
up for him and his father. I know, I know, Michael,
I know of his father. His father was a little
before my time. I mean, his father was around when
I was around, but I didn't have any any in
their actions. But his father was a you talk about
(29:31):
another real gangster. His father was a real gangster, you know, Uh, Sonny, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Yeah, I mean you're gonna sit there and not protect
your son.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Yeah yeah, I mean but stone cold, stone cold, stone cold,
you know. And you know, Michael, let me said, you know,
he didn't do me. Any One of the guys in
there tells me, Michael, your father didn't do you any favors.
You know his sit down.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Well, let me ask you about stone Cold. I have
a question. So when Carmon Galante was killed, he's killed
at dinner because he won't share his heroine and he's
out in public. They lay him right out in the
little courtyard there. Did Joe Coffee put the cigar in
his mouth?
Speaker 2 (30:22):
No, he had He always had that cigar in his mouth.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Okay, So he died with it in his mouth. Yeah, yeah,
justice gangster, Okay, Yeah, I just I never knew. So
Lefty was under Sunny Black.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah. In the beginning. Uh, when I first infiltrated the bananas. Uh. Uh,
Carmon GALENTI was was the boss. Uh and left and
uh then I was with Lefty and we were under
an individual by name of Mike Shabella. He was a
(30:58):
captain under Galente. They killed Galente, and they appointed a
Rusty Rostelli the boss who was in jail, and they
took me and Lefty away from Mike Sabella and put
us under Sonny Black. They had told Mike's you know,
(31:23):
they told Mike Sabella, uh, you either stepped down as
a captain or we're going to kill you two. So
he just went back to being a regular soldier. But
Lefty night and reported to Sonny Black Alan Brooklyn where
Mike Sabella was down in the little with me.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Now, if you don't mind telling one story for me,
and this will again tell you young officers and you young
detectives that may want to work undercover. When I say
it was twenty four to seven for Donnie Brasco, will
you please tell the story about underwear coffee cartoons in
Sunny Black, because Joe, I'm gonna tell you something. There's
(32:07):
undercover and there is undercover.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Well, I had a Sunny Black was in Brooklyn, and
he had an apartment upstairs from the Motion Lounge that
was his club, and I had my apartment was uptown, uh,
New York City. So some you know, sometimes if we
got in late, I didn't feel like going uptown. So
(32:34):
I would stay with Sunny Black and sleep on his couch. Now,
you have to remember, I'm talking about a guy that
was one of the most powerful capitals in New York City.
He was one of the guys that was running the
Banano family when Rushy was study was in jail. So
(33:00):
h he would we would get up in the morning
and across the street was a you know, a coffee shop.
He'd go down and get us coffee. And those of
you who are not in New York is a big
thing in the morning is a uh, a hard roll
with butter or a bagel with butter. So he would
(33:22):
go down and get us coffee and uh and two
hard rolls with butter, and uh, we'd come back. He'd
come back to his apartment and uh, we'd sit there
in our underwear watching cartoons and and he in a
hard roll with butter and drinking coffee. You know. And
(33:45):
I told that to my guys in the FBI, and
they were like, you got to be kidding me. That's
what we did.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
You know, they don't teach that at the academy, no,
But you.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Know, I don't know how to put this, but that's that.
That's me being comfortable in what I was doing, and
and the trust that he had in me, you know
what I mean? And and uh, and like I said,
(34:23):
but it goes back to you have to be yourself.
I never got loud. Ah, I never tried to act tough.
But if somebody braced me, they knew that, you know,
they knew that they were going to get it back,
you know.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
And that's how you build up to your respect. You
don't build up your respect by being a loudmouth. You
build up your respect by by your actions. And that's
that's how these guys respected me, by my actions. Uh
so uh, you know. And and again you know I
can't express it enough. Is that you have to be
(35:04):
who you are. You know, you can't have another personality
because it's not going to work.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
It's not going to work. And you know, this is
where it starts to become historic. At this point, Sonny
Black proposes Donnie Brasco to be a made man. Joe,
you are fixing to be at a level of undercover
that has never in history happened or been repeated.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
That's correct. And I had you know once they propose you,
what your name goes out to all the different capitals
in the family and they either give you, you know,
a thumbs up or thumbs down. Well, I had already
got the thumbs up. So I was going to actually
(35:53):
be inducted in December. I was going to be inducted
in the Banana family in December, and we'd close the
operation July at twenty seven, July twenty seven because of
the the unrest in the family and the killings. Decide
I was with killed three members of the opposition that
(36:14):
we're trying to take over the family, and like I said,
I had a contract to kill one guy that didn't
show up. So we basically the FBI basically termined in
the operation because of the killings now within.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
The family, after all of that time and all of
that work, for that operation to be pulled at that
moment where you just disgusted disheartened, well.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
I was kind of I was kind of disheartened, you know,
because you know my argument was, look, we you know,
we've been doing this now six years. I achieved infiltray
in a family. Now I'm going to be inducted into
a family. Can you imagine that the embarrassment and the
(37:11):
hurt of that family.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
They would never recover.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
No. Once I got inducted, yep, but they were too
worried about the you know, the war going on, and
so they wouldn't wait till Decembers for me to get inducted.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Did you know John Gotti?
Speaker 2 (37:32):
No, I never had any dealings with John. I mean
I knew who he was and everything, but I never
had any dealings with him. Though.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
What was the result of your six months worth of work?
How many arrests? How many trials? How many convictions we.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Had two hundred and I think it was two forty
seven forty five to forty seven convictions and seventh seventeen trials.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Do you know how many people died?
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Well? They killed Jilly, they killed Sonny, they killed Tony Mirra,
and like I said, they were going to kill Lefty,
but he the FBI arrested him because they found out
that he was on his way to get killed.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
I know, good and will that Lefty couldn't believe it.
I know the rest of them couldn't believe it either.
But I know Lefty felt like y'all were true friends.
I mean he saw.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
You, yeah, he saw me as a I don't know,
I think kind of as the age difference. He saw
me kind of as a son, you know, but he
was out to kill me. I can tell you that.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Oh, I have no doubt about that. Tell us how
you came up with the name Donnie Brasco, because that's
something I don't know. I've never heard that story.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
Well, actually he was a cousin of mine who I
grew up with, and uh, well he was a couple
of years older than me, and uh, he was just
he was like, you know, growing up, he was kind
of like my my protector, you know. Uh, and we
were you know, we were as close as brothers versus cousins.
(39:17):
Uh and uh uh he was he was a real
tough guy growing up. And then and then uh he
became actually became a minister uh later in life. Uh
and you know, uh so when I needed a name,
(39:39):
I actually went to him, and you know, and I said, cousin,
I said, you know, I'm kicking around some undercover names,
and what would you mind if I used your name?
And he gave me the blessing? So I used it.
I mean I would not have used it if he didn't,
you know, if he didn't give me the blessing. Uh.
(40:01):
So that's it.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
But it's a great name. And he wasn't in the crosshairs.
I mean, he was off somewhere else doing a whole
other game. He was.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Yeah, I mean he you know, he was, like I said,
he was a minister. He had a big church. Uh so.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
But that's that's how the name came about. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Well, you know when everything shook out, I mean people
they knocked on the door, I mean the FBI knocked
on the door to some of these folks like Sonny
Black and told him what was what. They didn't believe it.
They weren't gonna believe it until they were shown evidence,
like you wearing a badge.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
Yeah. What we did was he took a picture with
several undercovered not undercover age, with several agents, and actually
Sonny Black knew one of the agents. Uh So I
took a picture with Doug. Uh and I had my
badge out and Doug, Well, Sonny Black knew Doug. And
they went showed Sonny the picture and he said, well,
(41:03):
if I ever see him, you know, I'll know, you know,
I'll know who he is. And that was a yeah.
They found in a body bag. Uh. And the symbol
was because he had introduced me and to other mob guys,
other families that I shook hands with.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Yeah, yep, And then they put a contract out on you.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Yeah that Yeah, the Commission put a five hundred thousand
dollars contract out on me. And the reason that they
did was because they, in their minds, I had crossed
the line and that you know my background that I
was an orphan. Uh so so uh, I would spend
(41:51):
like Christmases and and all holidays with different guys in
their families. So they figured I had crossed the line
by you know, me and their wives and their kids.
So that's why they put the contract out on me.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Is it true? After the six years in two hundred
and forty seven convictions and seventeen trials and being away
from your own children and your own wife and your
own normal life, you got five hundred dollars in a medal.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
Yeah. Yeah, But you know you don't do it for
the money. So what are you going to?
Speaker 1 (42:35):
You know? Well, you know, Scott Payne and I were
talking about you, and he is just lovely talking about you.
His admiration, Oh my gosh, just tremendous. Well. I made
him laugh and told him about the last time I
worked undercover, he had just told the story about being
(42:56):
in the basement where they made him strip neck and
put a gun to his head. And here you're living
six months twenty four to seven with the mob. So
I'll tell you the same story. Last time I worked
under cover, it was to get rid of counterfeit shirts
at concerts, and it was The Grateful Dead the last
time they came through Atlanta. So, you know, me and you, Joe,
(43:18):
basically the same thing, you know, I mean, that's for me.
So Scott was dying laughing. He was like, well, you know,
we don't want counterfeit shirts either. You know, that's right,
you know, I mean, you know, counterfeit shirts, the mob,
it's all crime. You know, we want to tackle it
the best we can. But you know what you did
for this country and what you did taking some really
(43:42):
violent people off the street. I mean, it just can't
be overstated the heroic and historic crime fighting that you did.
And you did do it alone. Yes, you had a team,
you had people in the background, you know, sometimes you
maybe had people to you, But you were sitting in
(44:03):
that apartment in your underwear by yourself, watching cartoons. Honey.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Yeah, I was and I very I don't. I didn't
have twenty four to seven surveillance.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
Please, no, you did not. And we didn't have drones,
and we didn't have cell phones, and we didn't have
a lot of things they could use nowadays. There were
no trackers. You were out there in the wind.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
All I had was a payphone to one person in
the FBI with Tony Mirrah. I told you he was
the first banana to introduce me. And then he went
to jail, and then he got back out of jail,
and he was jealous because now I was with I
(44:47):
was tight with Lefty and Sunny Black. So he put
three beefs in against me. He went to his his
capo and said that I had stole two hundred and
fifty thousand dollars from the family that he knew of,
(45:08):
and that that's a no no steal the money from
a family. So, you know, being that he was a
mad guy, they called a sit down and I had
Sonny Block represent me at the sit down. Now what
you have to know is is that these sit downs
in that type situation is Sonny loses to sit down,
(45:30):
I'm dead. So Sonny wins the first sit down and
then A little while later, Mirror brings another beef against me,
so they call another sit down, and again Sonny Block
wins that sit down. So he wins three sit downs
against Tony. You know that on the beach that Tony
(45:53):
Mirror brought against me. But if again, if he didn't
win those sit downs would have been that they would
have killed me because they were that grievous, the the
charges that he brought against me.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Yeah, yeah, this sounds more and more like this was
your life more than undercover. I mean, that's how it
plays out.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Yeah, well, you know, once once you infiltrate these organized
crime groups that are that are violent, and like I
said prior, you know that that becomes your whole existence,
that's your social life. That's because you don't you know
in deep cover. Look you know, look, you know it.
There's undercover and then there's deep undercover, deep undercover. You
(46:40):
walk out of that office, you leave your gun, your badge,
everything that identifies you as who you really are in
that office, and now you're just you know, Donnie Brasco.
I'm I don't see my family. My family lives across country.
My only lifeline to them is a telephone. I would
(47:04):
get home maybe every seven months overnight. Ah. So it's
it's a rough existence. Uh and uh again it takes
a special well you know, look you did. It takes
a special person to work long term deep cover. Uh.
(47:26):
You got to have a different outlook on on what
you're doing. You gotta, you know, Uh, you got to
have a mental toughness that a lot of people don't have. Uh.
So Uh, it's it's it's you know, I don't recommend it.
I don't recommend it for anybody, to be honest with you.
Speaker 1 (47:49):
You know, Well, it's hard on your wife, it's hard
on your children. Well, I mean I've had a chance
to talk to your granddaughter. They are so supportive still.
I mean, there doesn't seem to be any bitterness. But
I'm just telling you once every seven months, that's hard
on everybody.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
Of course it is, of course it is. Yeah. And yet, look,
you have to have a strong spouse, you know, whether
whether it be the husband or the wife, they have
to be support of what you're doing. They have to.
You know, there are certain reasons why you don't go
under cover, Cheryl. You know, and you know you don't
go under cover because you have a bad relationship at
(48:30):
home because a lot of a lot of people do.
Oh yeah, but it does nothing but make it worse.
You don't go under cover because you can't get along
with with the people that you're working with and you
know in your in your police department or your FBHI office. Ah,
you don't go on to cover for those reasons. You
(48:54):
go under cover because you believe, and that's you know,
you believe, and that's the only way you're going to
be able to crack the case. And you and you know,
and you have a vehicle to uh to infiltrate the
group that that you're investigating.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
You don't go under cover because you know you have
money problems. You don't go under cover because you're either
an alcoholic or on the fringe. I mean, there are
so many reasons why people do go under cover, and
there are all the wrong reasons. So uh, and I know,
you know, once once I got out of it and
(49:34):
I was into the uh talking to undercover agents and uh,
well you know, if I didn't think that, Look all
my all my former undercover partners are divorced and it's
(49:54):
it's because of it's because of undercover. That's why they
were divorced. You know, it's not because of you know. Uh,
it's hard on the family, you know. And that's why
I even though I teach these courses, I don't recommend it.
But you know, at least you know, if they want
to give it a shot. Uh, you know, I got
(50:17):
to impart whatever knowledge I have, you know. So there's
a lot of factors why you why you do go,
there's and there's a lot of factors why you shouldn't go.
And I blame a lot of administration, a lot of
administration if a case gets screwed up because they put
the wrong person there or they don't pull the person
(50:40):
when they should.
Speaker 1 (50:41):
Amen. Last question, what do you think of the movie?
Speaker 2 (50:47):
I loved it.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
Yeah, right on, I'm gonna tell you it changed my
whole life.
Speaker 2 (50:51):
I'll tell you you know why. You know why because
I don't know if you know anything about Hollywood. But
once you sign your name, you're lucky if they spell
your name right after that. I mean I was lucky
in that I got I signed with the Good Good. Uh.
(51:13):
It was a director that had his own production company.
It was a Barry Levinson straight. I mean he's at
the time, he's one of the best directors going. He's
still working actually, uh. And then he you know, and
then we went to Columbia. But he hired a great writer,
Paul Antonazio, who kept it honest. Now there are some
(51:37):
you know, it's a movie. You know, they tell me
Donnie when Donnie Joe, we got to put asses in
the seats. Now for for you and for your audience.
There's a scene in there where I slapt my wife.
That never happened. I never I never slept my way.
That wasn't an original script that was put in later,
(51:58):
which I didn't know. Also, when they killed those three guys,
they had me sawing that guy's leg off with a
hack saw. I never saw anybody's leg off with a
hack saw. Okay, we did have a lion. We did
have a real lion. Uh. That's one of the questions
(52:18):
most people saying, did you have a lion? Yeah, we
really did have a lion in the club, and then
we put it. Then we put them in the h
in a warehouse.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
And what in the line used to shake people to
make sure they paid on time.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
No, No, we just we just had it for amusement,
that's all. Yes, for our own amusement, and me and
my wife never saw a psychiatrist. So but the rest
of the movie was the rest of the movement. To
get that movie was eighty five percent on the money
(52:55):
and to get eighty five percent out of a true
story even though it was a true story. If you
know Hollywood, you know, like I said, you're lucky if
they if they say or pronounce your name right once
they sign you.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
Well, sir, I cannot tell you what this conversation has
meant to me. I cannot tell you just how that movie,
I mean it did. It changed my life. I mean,
I knew what I wanted to try to do and
emulate in my career. So I just appreciate you so much.
I know we owe you more than five hundred dollars
(53:32):
in a medal, So I just want to say that,
but I do. I just appreciate you, and it's an honor.
Speaker 2 (53:38):
Well my pleasure sharel it really is, it really is.
And you take care, stay shafe.
Speaker 1 (53:47):
Thank you all right, y'all. I'm on end zone seven
the way that I always do with a quote. I
am not in the Federal Witness Protection Program. Joepah Stone
a k A. Donny Brasco. I'm Cheryl McCollum and this
is Zone seven
Speaker 2 (54:10):
H
If not for him, we would not have known about
the American mafia. The FBI didn't know how they were
set up, if there were families, the hierarchy. They had
no idea the crimes they were involved in. We had
no idea what was right under our noses, so to speak,
(00:29):
with the mafia. Our guest Tonight was tagged by the
FBI to go under cover for six months. They were like, hey,
get in there, see what you can find out, get
back out. We'll take it from there. He spent six
years under cover. He lived within the Colombo crime family.
(00:50):
He risked his life every single minute of every single
day for six months. Y'all, it is an absolute honor
to welcome retired FBI Special Agent Joseph Pistone to Zone seven. Sir, welcome,
(01:11):
welcome to Zone seven.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Well, I appreciate you having me on, Cheryl, thank you
very much.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Let me tell you, this is a privilege. This is
something that very few people get the opportunity to do,
and I am just grateful that you are spending any
amount of time with me and our listeners. It's important.
Your work was historic. Nobody, nobody, I don't think, can
(01:38):
overstate the importance of what you did. You single handedly
took down the mall.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I don't know single handedly, but I had a big,
a big part in it. This was a big operation
that lasted six years, and I eventually brought in a
couple other undercovers in different cities, but I was the
main undercover, and the Columbo crime family was the first
(02:11):
family I infiltrated, and then I went over to the Bananos.
So I was with the Columbos for about six months,
and then I went over to the Bananos and stayed
with the Bananos for five and a half years, for
a total of six years total for the operation.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
And you know, you and I spoke, and there's just
certain things that would give you away, Like we were
laughing that I couldn't have infiltrated them with my accent alone.
I mean, they would know I was not from the
Bronx or Uptown, right, So you had to be perfect
from the watch you wore, to the clothes to the
(02:52):
way you spoke, the slang terms that you learned to use.
I mean you had to be perfect, Joe, every minute,
every day.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Well, yeah, unfortunately, you know, we can only make one mistake,
and you know they can make as many mistakes as
they want. But in the undercover business, especially when you
infiltrated in a deep cover situation, you have you're allowed
one mistake, and unfortunately that mistake could get you killed.
(03:25):
So you do you have to be on your game
twenty four to seven in this.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Business twenty four to seven because you're dealing with people
that they're not trusting. As a rule, they don't know
who you are. They're not just going to let you in.
It wasn't like you were able just to walk into
the mob bar and go, you know, hey boys, I
want to join. I mean, you had to really take
your time. How long did you set up just at
(03:55):
that bar, going in there every day every other day
so they would know your face?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Several bars or restaurants that I frequented, uh, every day
every night? Actually uh? And that's you know, in this
type of situation, which which is deep cover, it's a
seven day a week job. Uh, you know, because the
mob we see you Monday through Friday. Where the hell
are you Saturday and Sunday? How Come you're never around
(04:22):
Saturday or Sunday? So you have to dedicate it uh
to being a seven day or week week job. Ah.
And It took me about six months before I had
any conversation with anybody regarding any any activities, mob activities
(04:43):
or UH introduced to different monsters within the different families
in New York City. So it was a long process.
It was I was out there by myself. I had
my own apartment in New York City. H I moved
out of my residence. My family actually was then moved
(05:07):
across across country. So and it's a lonely existence. Once
you've infiltrated, your whole existence, your whole social life is
now with the organized crime group that you've infiltrated.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
And I think a lot of people don't understand. I mean,
there's going to be some young rookies and some young
detectives listening this, going, oh okay, I get to go
to bars every night for six months and get paid
to do it. But you're away from your family and
you're already risk in your life. If they had any
inklin of who you were, you would have been dead
(05:46):
right then.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, you know, initially, if they suspect you of anything,
it's not that you're an undercover law enforcement it's that
you're an informant, and you know they don't have any
reservations about killing informants. They might think twice if they
think your law enforcement. But the first the thing that
(06:11):
comes through was that this guy's an informant, he's working
for the police. So chances are if that's how they
feel and how they really think, they're going to kill
you right there.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Yeah, so being an untouchable, that code of silence is real.
Did you totally understand that prior to your undercover work
or did you learn just how serious they were about
not being a rat?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Well, fortunately I grew up in that environment. I grew
up in an all Italian neighborhood. I went to high
school with guys who fathers were in the mob. I
knew mob guys from the neighborhood, so I was pretty
well versed in how the mob operated before I went
(07:01):
into law enforcement. Like I said, just growing up. So
that helped me an awful lot. Helped me to infiltrate,
knowing how to act, and once I did infiltrate, it
helped me again stay alive and gain information because, like
(07:22):
I say, you know, that's an environment that I was
used to as a child, growing up, going through high school.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
You know a lot of people think undercover work, Oh
you know, that's so sexy. I want to do that.
But you were brilliant in one thing. You knew as
an FBI agent you couldn't infiltrate the mob and kill somebody.
So you had to figure out what am I going
to do for a living? Like, how am I going
to make them want to use me? Come to me?
(07:52):
Tell everybody what you did to make sure once you
were in you could hold up your end of the
bargain bringing them money.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Well, yeah, I mean, you know, the whole purpose of
anybody in the mob is to be an earner, to
again earn, bring money in and being an undercover agent
law enforcement, you can't get involved in violence unless it's
for your own protection or protect the citizen. So my
(08:26):
criminal profession was a jewel thief. Now, on the other hand,
whatever criminal profession that you say that you are, you
better know about it. So I went to I went
to school, learned about diamonds, learned about precious gems. I
(08:46):
pretty much knew about that subject. And then you have
to you know, if you're a jewel thief, there are
other things you have to know. You have to know
how to pick locks. You have to know about alarm
system them. You have to know about safes. So I
also got schooled in lock picking, alarms and safes because
(09:10):
what is a lot of what is the downfall of
a lot of undercover agents is they say there's something,
but they don't know anything about the profession that they
say they are. And you can't you know, you can't
bs through through a profession, and you can't say that
(09:31):
you know, you don't want to go into a profession
saying that you're a stick up man or you're a
leg breaker, because once you get once you infiltrate, you're
going to be expected to do whatever you say your
profession is. So you have to think out your profession
very carefully and you have to know all aspects of
your criminal profession.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
How long did you go to school to learn about
saves and luck picking and alarms?
Speaker 2 (09:59):
I went to jewelry school UH for about I think
it was a three three month course or four month
course uh and UH once I felt comfortable there and
the other aspects of it I learned from you know,
from the technicians in the FBI that were proficient in
(10:23):
uh in uh lock picking and alarm systems and that's
so good.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Though, because again, if you're bringing them a bag of
diamonds that are lose, you've got to know the value.
You got to know a good one from a bad one,
a clear one, the.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Cut well, and the main thing is that you know,
you can't be telling them tiffany prices if it's supposed
to be stolen. You know, what's what's the swag price?
What's the street price? Right?
Speaker 1 (10:53):
So?
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Uh? And you and you have to know the quality
and uh and the clarity you know.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
So and the swag price is important because honey, you've
got to cut it up.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
That's exactly right, because uh, you want to if you
if you give it to a fence, you know he's
going to make money. So you have to say the
price you want where you know that everybody is going
to get as they say what their beaks, you know,
have a piece of bread and eat. So ah, there's
(11:28):
a lot to go into undercover and undercover. And you're right.
A lot of young a lot of young officers, they
think it's what they see on television, you know, and
it's not. It's it's not as easy as it looks
on television. And another thing too.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Is.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
You got to make sure that you don't. You know,
you stay within your moral compass when you go undercover.
You know, I do a lot of lecturing and teaching
at at undercover schools around the country and overseas. I
do a lot overseas, and I explained to these young
(12:15):
officers that you know, this is not this is not TV,
this is real. You know, you're dealing with your life
and you have to do what you believe in. For instance,
I'm not a drinker. I never was a drinker. Well,
I didn't drink that much when I was undercover. I mean,
(12:37):
you know my capacity even to this day, even growing up,
I can't finish a whole ball of beer. And when
I worked undercover, I did the same thing. I drink
maybe one glass of wine with dinner and a lot
of undercovers. Again, they think that all bad guys drinkers,
(13:00):
All bad guys, you know, curse and swear, and you know,
you have to be yourself. Basically, you have to be
yourself because everybody has a personality and everybody has a
moral compass, and you have to stay within your personality
(13:21):
and your moral compass.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
When you were Donnie Brasco and knowing that within the mob,
you could not refuse a job from a boss. How
did you maneuver to make sure you didn't get yourself
in a situation where you had to go break somebody's leg?
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Well, because I was not a leg breaker. I mean
near the end of my career. When I say my career,
near the end of the operation, I was giving contracts
to kill somebody. Now obviously you know I wasn't just
going out flat kill somebody. I was fortunate enough that
the person that I give I was given a contract
on was on the land. That means he was running, uh,
(14:08):
And I couldn't find them, and the FBI couldn't find them.
So but you know, again, it all depends on the situation.
It depends on on your own life. That's a hard
answer question to answer only because it depends on the situation. Now,
(14:30):
I'll be honest with you. If it's between my life
and a gangster's life, yeah, it ain't going to be
my life. It's going to be the gangsters. It's going
to be the gangster's life. But on the other hand,
if it's me or a citizen, then I protect a
citizen uh and put my life on the line. But
(14:54):
I'm not putting my life on a life or a gangster.
So because the people that you're dealing with, I mean,
the people that I dealt with, you know, they you know,
they had killed five, ten, fifteen people themselves, so they
only going to have any problem killing me if they
had to.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
That's right. Absolutely. Let's talk about August fourteenth, nineteen eighty one,
when Sonny Black walks into the motion lounge bar.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
What happened. To give a little backstory for those that
don't know, Sonny Block was a top ranking captain in
the Banano crime family and he was actually my captain
in the family. That means that I reported to Sonny
Block and had had when it had come out that
(15:44):
I was an FBI agent working undercover. At first, the
mafia didn't believe it. They thought the FBI had kidnapped
me and was trying to brainwash me and turn me
into an and inform it. And then finally when their
(16:05):
lawyers got you know, they for David's and everything, then
they realize, hey, this guy's really an FBI agent. And
so Sonny Black gets called to a meeting because he
was responsible for me. He had introduced me to a
(16:27):
lot of a lot of other mob guys, and he
gets called to a meeting. And before he goes to
the meeting, Now I want to emphasize there are gangsters,
and there are real gangsters, and Sonny Block was a
real gangster. Before he goes, he walks into the Motion Lounge,
(16:50):
which was our bar, his bar, it was our social club.
And he gives a bartenders money. He gives the bartenders
our key, his keys, except his car keys. He gives
him his diamond ring and tells him I just got
called to a sit down and I'm probably not coming back.
(17:13):
And then and then he calls his girlfriend and tells
her the same thing. Uh, And he did. He went
to the he went to the meeting, and once he
walked in that that door, they shot him. They killed them. Yeah,
I mean, you know, talk about a gangster. Yeah, he said,
(17:35):
I'm going to a sit down. I probably not coming back.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
I mean, he knew what he was walking into and
did it anyway.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
He didn't run, no, no, no, no, went right went
right to the address where he had to go and
walked in. And you know who kills your people that
you know? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Your friends?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Yeah, guys that he had known for years, guys that
were mobsters with him, and you know, yeah, so to me,
that's a real gangster.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Yeah, agreed. So, Tony Mirra, he introduced you to the
Banano Crown family. How did you know, Tony?
Speaker 2 (18:15):
I met Tony at a card game at a it
was really more in a card game. It was a
gambling den that was run by the mafia, and I
had met Tony Tony there And when I left the Columbos,
(18:35):
I hooked up with Tony Mirra and he introduced me
actually into the Banano family and they end up killing
him too. His own nephew shot him. His own nephew
shot him and for his you know, for bringing me
into the family. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Well, when you left the Colombo family, why did you
leave them? And did you make it known, you know,
the you were a free agent?
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Well, I left the Columbos because I got into a
I got into a beef physical confrontation with two of
the guys that were into in the crew, the Columbo
crew I was in. I got into a physical confrontation
with two guys and once I had that physical confrontation,
(19:25):
I knew that I couldn't hang around these guys anymore
because they didn't like me, and I didn't like them,
So it was going to come to somebody who was
going to get killed. So I went to Mike Capo.
The capo that was at the head of that was
a gentleman by name of Jilly. So I just went
to Jilly and told them that, you know, I don't
think I could hang around with you guys anymore, you know,
(19:50):
because of this confrontation that I had with these two guys.
So he understood, you know, they know what's going on,
they know the way the street. So that's when I
when I I helked up with Tony Mirror. Uh, when
I went back to the to the.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Card games, that physical confrontation probably made you look more legit.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Well yeah, I mean, you know, look, there's certain things
you can shake hands on, and there's certain things you can't.
There's certain things that the only thing they understand is
a physical confrontation, and this was this was one where
I couldn't shake hands with him. Uh, So I initiated
(20:37):
a physical comfrontation and was fighting two guys actually until
they until they broke it up.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Okay, now let me ask you this. Prior to going undercover,
did you have an idea who you kind of wanted
to work with, if there was one group in particular,
or did you just wait till whoever came to you
and work from there.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Yeah, basically like that. I mean I had done other
undercovered jobs before that, before the sixth year one, and
I had just come off a year undercover where I
had infiltrated a bunch of car thi's that were still
in high end automobiles up and down the East Coast.
(21:22):
So it was whoever the criminal individuals were. It didn't
make any difference to me if I could get in
into the organization I did. I didn't you know, I
didn't pick and choose nationalities or ethnic groups. It were
just criminal groups.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
So and then at one point you learned there were
five families.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Well, basically we knew when I say, well, you know,
the FBI knew that you know about the five families.
What we didn't have is a lot of intelligence and
how they they interacted with each other. And we didn't
know a lot of the names of individuals that were
into different families. And I also was able to put
(22:12):
together again, uh, names to faces and who was an
actual member who was actually inducted into a family versus
who was an associate, somebody that was with the family
but not actually inducted into that family. So I was
able to together a lot of intelligence information besides criminal
(22:34):
uh criminal information uh, which which helped down the road
in all the all the cases against against the families. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yes, because of you, we knew there was a whole
you know, organization when the five families got together. We
didn't know anything about a commission that came from you.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
How the commission operated and how they how they it
up the country with the different families again, how they
interacted with each other in criminal activities, and how different
(23:17):
where they were allowed to you know, conduct their criminal activities,
which was very helpful in putting together other cases.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Right, because it wasn't just New York. I mean you
were learning things about Chicago and other places. You yourself
went to Florida.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Yeah, I actually was able to form a marriage between
the Banano family and the family in Milwaukee. I was
able to form a marriage between the Banano family and
Santa traffic Anti, the boss of of of Florida, which
was you know, which was a big deal actually, I
(23:55):
mean I was being able to marry up too families
to conduct illegal activities.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Yeah, now, sir, I'm will tell you you did more
than just marrying two families. You were so successful in
Florida that the Florida FBI had y'all under surveillance and
had no idea you were an agent.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
No, that was in New York too. That also was
in New York. You know, because there are different squads
that are working working different families and stuff. So, uh,
the other the other squads in New York, you know,
(24:38):
they're they had surveillance and you know, there's so many
agents that you don't know everybody, so they they had
all of any photographs that you see and me were
taken by surveillance teams that had no idea who I was.
They thought I was just just another gangster.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
But again that tells you and for the young officers
into tectives listening the way you carried yourself. You didn't
run around shooting your mouth off. You weren't telling women secrets,
you weren't violating the code. I mean, you lived this
lifestyle exactly.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
And what young officers have to remember you have to
be yourself. You know, you have to be yourself like
I say, you know, I was never a drinker, so
I never tried to keep up drinking with anybody. And
it's you know, sometimes you get the question is, you know, Donnie,
(25:38):
how come you you know, how come you're not drinking?
And I just tell them because I can, I can't
drink a whole beer. Nobody cares. I mean, you think
anybody cares that that you're not a drinker. It's but
like I say, young undercovers think that they have to
(25:59):
act like every gangster that there is. You don't. I've
never done a drug in my life, never ever, and
I wasn't about to do one when I worked under
cover either. And you know that's what not when I do,
I don't do that stuff.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
And you didn't brag, you didn't shoot your mouth off,
you didn't go home every weekend and tell all your
friends and family about it, exactly. I mean, we've got
some young folks. You know, you've seen it. They've got
a video camera in their pocket and they will take
crime scene video pictures. They do TikTok and uniform. I mean,
come on, you have.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
To know why you're there and why you're there. You're
a law enforcement officer. You're conducting an investigation, and it
just so happens that the investigation is undercover. I mean,
if you if you're out investigating a bank fraud, are
you going to you know, to put it all over
(27:01):
that you're investigating a bank fraud and you know the
banker is Joe blow Is whom you know who I'm investigating,
and so why would you do it undercover? You know?
I mean it's it's it's like I said, I teach
a lot undercover schools and I'm amazed that, you know,
(27:25):
especially today. Uh, I asked some of the uh are
you on Facebook? Yeah? Why are you on Facebook? Are
you're working undercover? Well that's not my real name. No,
it's not your real name, but you're on Facebook. You
got your family on Facebook, you got your family on
(27:46):
TikTok or Instagram. But you know, they think because it's
a different name. I said, are you kidding or what?
Speaker 1 (27:56):
But like you said, it's your face man. And I'll
tell you we had a kid got straight out of
the academy. I mean he may be graduated three days.
The next day. He has a full sleeve tattoo of
like the law enforcement flag. You know, nine one one's
my phone number. You know his badge number. And you know,
(28:18):
the first thing I said is, well, I guess you're
undercover careers over. You ain't even been on the street
five minutes and you're letting everybody know who and what
you are exactly.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
So like I say, you know, I I got to
shake my head at some of the some of them,
you know, with all the social media and it doesn't
take long now to find out who anybody is, you know, And.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
What's so silly, that's what we use to find perpetrators.
You don't think they're doing the opposite exactly. Well, as
you're living in this world, you are learning quickly, Like
you already have said, the people closest to you were
going to be the ones that kill you. And Michael
(29:04):
fran says his own father didn't he put a hit
out on him.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Well, he didn't put a hit out on him, but
when he went to a sit down, he didn't stick
up for him and his father. I know, I know, Michael,
I know of his father. His father was a little
before my time. I mean, his father was around when
I was around, but I didn't have any any in
their actions. But his father was a you talk about
(29:31):
another real gangster. His father was a real gangster, you know, Uh, Sonny, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Yeah, I mean you're gonna sit there and not protect
your son.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Yeah yeah, I mean but stone cold, stone cold, stone cold,
you know. And you know, Michael, let me said, you know,
he didn't do me. Any One of the guys in
there tells me, Michael, your father didn't do you any favors.
You know his sit down.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Well, let me ask you about stone Cold. I have
a question. So when Carmon Galante was killed, he's killed
at dinner because he won't share his heroine and he's
out in public. They lay him right out in the
little courtyard there. Did Joe Coffee put the cigar in
his mouth?
Speaker 2 (30:22):
No, he had He always had that cigar in his mouth.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Okay, So he died with it in his mouth. Yeah, yeah,
justice gangster, Okay, Yeah, I just I never knew. So
Lefty was under Sunny Black.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah. In the beginning. Uh, when I first infiltrated the bananas. Uh. Uh,
Carmon GALENTI was was the boss. Uh and left and
uh then I was with Lefty and we were under
an individual by name of Mike Shabella. He was a
(30:58):
captain under Galente. They killed Galente, and they appointed a
Rusty Rostelli the boss who was in jail, and they
took me and Lefty away from Mike Sabella and put
us under Sonny Black. They had told Mike's you know,
(31:23):
they told Mike Sabella, uh, you either stepped down as
a captain or we're going to kill you two. So
he just went back to being a regular soldier. But
Lefty night and reported to Sonny Black Alan Brooklyn where
Mike Sabella was down in the little with me.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Now, if you don't mind telling one story for me,
and this will again tell you young officers and you young
detectives that may want to work undercover. When I say
it was twenty four to seven for Donnie Brasco, will
you please tell the story about underwear coffee cartoons in
Sunny Black, because Joe, I'm gonna tell you something. There's
(32:07):
undercover and there is undercover.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Well, I had a Sunny Black was in Brooklyn, and
he had an apartment upstairs from the Motion Lounge that
was his club, and I had my apartment was uptown, uh,
New York City. So some you know, sometimes if we
got in late, I didn't feel like going uptown. So
(32:34):
I would stay with Sunny Black and sleep on his couch. Now,
you have to remember, I'm talking about a guy that
was one of the most powerful capitals in New York City.
He was one of the guys that was running the
Banano family when Rushy was study was in jail. So
(33:00):
h he would we would get up in the morning
and across the street was a you know, a coffee shop.
He'd go down and get us coffee. And those of
you who are not in New York is a big
thing in the morning is a uh, a hard roll
with butter or a bagel with butter. So he would
(33:22):
go down and get us coffee and uh and two
hard rolls with butter, and uh, we'd come back. He'd
come back to his apartment and uh, we'd sit there
in our underwear watching cartoons and and he in a
hard roll with butter and drinking coffee. You know. And
(33:45):
I told that to my guys in the FBI, and
they were like, you got to be kidding me. That's
what we did.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
You know, they don't teach that at the academy, no,
But you.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Know, I don't know how to put this, but that's that.
That's me being comfortable in what I was doing, and
and the trust that he had in me, you know
what I mean? And and uh, and like I said,
(34:23):
but it goes back to you have to be yourself.
I never got loud. Ah, I never tried to act tough.
But if somebody braced me, they knew that, you know,
they knew that they were going to get it back,
you know.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
And that's how you build up to your respect. You
don't build up your respect by being a loudmouth. You
build up your respect by by your actions. And that's
that's how these guys respected me, by my actions. Uh
so uh, you know. And and again you know I
can't express it enough. Is that you have to be
(35:04):
who you are. You know, you can't have another personality
because it's not going to work.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
It's not going to work. And you know, this is
where it starts to become historic. At this point, Sonny
Black proposes Donnie Brasco to be a made man. Joe,
you are fixing to be at a level of undercover
that has never in history happened or been repeated.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
That's correct. And I had you know once they propose you,
what your name goes out to all the different capitals
in the family and they either give you, you know,
a thumbs up or thumbs down. Well, I had already
got the thumbs up. So I was going to actually
(35:53):
be inducted in December. I was going to be inducted
in the Banana family in December, and we'd close the
operation July at twenty seven, July twenty seven because of
the the unrest in the family and the killings. Decide
I was with killed three members of the opposition that
(36:14):
we're trying to take over the family, and like I said,
I had a contract to kill one guy that didn't
show up. So we basically the FBI basically termined in
the operation because of the killings now within.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
The family, after all of that time and all of
that work, for that operation to be pulled at that
moment where you just disgusted disheartened, well.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
I was kind of I was kind of disheartened, you know,
because you know my argument was, look, we you know,
we've been doing this now six years. I achieved infiltray
in a family. Now I'm going to be inducted into
a family. Can you imagine that the embarrassment and the
(37:11):
hurt of that family.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
They would never recover.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
No. Once I got inducted, yep, but they were too
worried about the you know, the war going on, and
so they wouldn't wait till Decembers for me to get inducted.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Did you know John Gotti?
Speaker 2 (37:32):
No, I never had any dealings with John. I mean
I knew who he was and everything, but I never
had any dealings with him. Though.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
What was the result of your six months worth of work?
How many arrests? How many trials? How many convictions we.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Had two hundred and I think it was two forty
seven forty five to forty seven convictions and seventh seventeen trials.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Do you know how many people died?
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Well? They killed Jilly, they killed Sonny, they killed Tony Mirra,
and like I said, they were going to kill Lefty,
but he the FBI arrested him because they found out
that he was on his way to get killed.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
I know, good and will that Lefty couldn't believe it.
I know the rest of them couldn't believe it either.
But I know Lefty felt like y'all were true friends.
I mean he saw.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
You, yeah, he saw me as a I don't know,
I think kind of as the age difference. He saw
me kind of as a son, you know, but he
was out to kill me. I can tell you that.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Oh, I have no doubt about that. Tell us how
you came up with the name Donnie Brasco, because that's
something I don't know. I've never heard that story.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
Well, actually he was a cousin of mine who I
grew up with, and uh, well he was a couple
of years older than me, and uh, he was just
he was like, you know, growing up, he was kind
of like my my protector, you know. Uh, and we
were you know, we were as close as brothers versus cousins.
(39:17):
Uh and uh uh he was he was a real
tough guy growing up. And then and then uh he
became actually became a minister uh later in life. Uh
and you know, uh so when I needed a name,
(39:39):
I actually went to him, and you know, and I said, cousin,
I said, you know, I'm kicking around some undercover names,
and what would you mind if I used your name?
And he gave me the blessing? So I used it.
I mean I would not have used it if he didn't,
you know, if he didn't give me the blessing. Uh.
(40:01):
So that's it.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
But it's a great name. And he wasn't in the crosshairs.
I mean, he was off somewhere else doing a whole
other game. He was.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Yeah, I mean he you know, he was, like I said,
he was a minister. He had a big church. Uh so.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
But that's that's how the name came about. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Well, you know when everything shook out, I mean people
they knocked on the door, I mean the FBI knocked
on the door to some of these folks like Sonny
Black and told him what was what. They didn't believe it.
They weren't gonna believe it until they were shown evidence,
like you wearing a badge.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
Yeah. What we did was he took a picture with
several undercovered not undercover age, with several agents, and actually
Sonny Black knew one of the agents. Uh So I
took a picture with Doug. Uh and I had my
badge out and Doug, Well, Sonny Black knew Doug. And
they went showed Sonny the picture and he said, well,
(41:03):
if I ever see him, you know, I'll know, you know,
I'll know who he is. And that was a yeah.
They found in a body bag. Uh. And the symbol
was because he had introduced me and to other mob guys,
other families that I shook hands with.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Yeah, yep, And then they put a contract out on you.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Yeah that Yeah, the Commission put a five hundred thousand
dollars contract out on me. And the reason that they
did was because they, in their minds, I had crossed
the line and that you know my background that I
was an orphan. Uh so so uh, I would spend
(41:51):
like Christmases and and all holidays with different guys in
their families. So they figured I had crossed the line
by you know, me and their wives and their kids.
So that's why they put the contract out on me.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Is it true? After the six years in two hundred
and forty seven convictions and seventeen trials and being away
from your own children and your own wife and your
own normal life, you got five hundred dollars in a medal.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
Yeah. Yeah, But you know you don't do it for
the money. So what are you going to?
Speaker 1 (42:35):
You know? Well, you know, Scott Payne and I were
talking about you, and he is just lovely talking about you.
His admiration, Oh my gosh, just tremendous. Well. I made
him laugh and told him about the last time I
worked undercover, he had just told the story about being
(42:56):
in the basement where they made him strip neck and
put a gun to his head. And here you're living
six months twenty four to seven with the mob. So
I'll tell you the same story. Last time I worked
under cover, it was to get rid of counterfeit shirts
at concerts, and it was The Grateful Dead the last
time they came through Atlanta. So, you know, me and you, Joe,
(43:18):
basically the same thing, you know, I mean, that's for me.
So Scott was dying laughing. He was like, well, you know,
we don't want counterfeit shirts either. You know, that's right,
you know, I mean, you know, counterfeit shirts, the mob,
it's all crime. You know, we want to tackle it
the best we can. But you know what you did
for this country and what you did taking some really
(43:42):
violent people off the street. I mean, it just can't
be overstated the heroic and historic crime fighting that you did.
And you did do it alone. Yes, you had a team,
you had people in the background, you know, sometimes you
maybe had people to you, But you were sitting in
(44:03):
that apartment in your underwear by yourself, watching cartoons. Honey.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Yeah, I was and I very I don't. I didn't
have twenty four to seven surveillance.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
Please, no, you did not. And we didn't have drones,
and we didn't have cell phones, and we didn't have
a lot of things they could use nowadays. There were
no trackers. You were out there in the wind.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
All I had was a payphone to one person in
the FBI with Tony Mirrah. I told you he was
the first banana to introduce me. And then he went
to jail, and then he got back out of jail,
and he was jealous because now I was with I
(44:47):
was tight with Lefty and Sunny Black. So he put
three beefs in against me. He went to his his
capo and said that I had stole two hundred and
fifty thousand dollars from the family that he knew of,
(45:08):
and that that's a no no steal the money from
a family. So, you know, being that he was a
mad guy, they called a sit down and I had
Sonny Block represent me at the sit down. Now what
you have to know is is that these sit downs
in that type situation is Sonny loses to sit down,
(45:30):
I'm dead. So Sonny wins the first sit down and
then A little while later, Mirror brings another beef against me,
so they call another sit down, and again Sonny Block
wins that sit down. So he wins three sit downs
against Tony. You know that on the beach that Tony
(45:53):
Mirror brought against me. But if again, if he didn't
win those sit downs would have been that they would
have killed me because they were that grievous, the the
charges that he brought against me.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Yeah, yeah, this sounds more and more like this was
your life more than undercover. I mean, that's how it
plays out.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Yeah, well, you know, once once you infiltrate these organized
crime groups that are that are violent, and like I
said prior, you know that that becomes your whole existence,
that's your social life. That's because you don't you know
in deep cover. Look you know, look, you know it.
There's undercover and then there's deep undercover, deep undercover. You
(46:40):
walk out of that office, you leave your gun, your badge,
everything that identifies you as who you really are in
that office, and now you're just you know, Donnie Brasco.
I'm I don't see my family. My family lives across country.
My only lifeline to them is a telephone. I would
(47:04):
get home maybe every seven months overnight. Ah. So it's
it's a rough existence. Uh and uh again it takes
a special well you know, look you did. It takes
a special person to work long term deep cover. Uh.
(47:26):
You got to have a different outlook on on what
you're doing. You gotta, you know, Uh, you got to
have a mental toughness that a lot of people don't have. Uh.
So Uh, it's it's it's you know, I don't recommend it.
I don't recommend it for anybody, to be honest with you.
Speaker 1 (47:49):
You know, Well, it's hard on your wife, it's hard
on your children. Well, I mean I've had a chance
to talk to your granddaughter. They are so supportive still.
I mean, there doesn't seem to be any bitterness. But
I'm just telling you once every seven months, that's hard
on everybody.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
Of course it is, of course it is. Yeah. And yet, look,
you have to have a strong spouse, you know, whether
whether it be the husband or the wife, they have
to be support of what you're doing. They have to.
You know, there are certain reasons why you don't go
under cover, Cheryl. You know, and you know you don't
go under cover because you have a bad relationship at
(48:30):
home because a lot of a lot of people do.
Oh yeah, but it does nothing but make it worse.
You don't go under cover because you can't get along
with with the people that you're working with and you
know in your in your police department or your FBHI office. Ah,
you don't go on to cover for those reasons. You
(48:54):
go under cover because you believe, and that's you know,
you believe, and that's the only way you're going to
be able to crack the case. And you and you know,
and you have a vehicle to uh to infiltrate the
group that that you're investigating.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
You don't go under cover because you know you have
money problems. You don't go under cover because you're either
an alcoholic or on the fringe. I mean, there are
so many reasons why people do go under cover, and
there are all the wrong reasons. So uh, and I know,
you know, once once I got out of it and
(49:34):
I was into the uh talking to undercover agents and uh,
well you know, if I didn't think that, Look all
my all my former undercover partners are divorced and it's
(49:54):
it's because of it's because of undercover. That's why they
were divorced. You know, it's not because of you know. Uh,
it's hard on the family, you know. And that's why
I even though I teach these courses, I don't recommend it.
But you know, at least you know, if they want
to give it a shot. Uh, you know, I got
(50:17):
to impart whatever knowledge I have, you know. So there's
a lot of factors why you why you do go,
there's and there's a lot of factors why you shouldn't go.
And I blame a lot of administration, a lot of
administration if a case gets screwed up because they put
the wrong person there or they don't pull the person
(50:40):
when they should.
Speaker 1 (50:41):
Amen. Last question, what do you think of the movie?
Speaker 2 (50:47):
I loved it.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
Yeah, right on, I'm gonna tell you it changed my
whole life.
Speaker 2 (50:51):
I'll tell you you know why. You know why because
I don't know if you know anything about Hollywood. But
once you sign your name, you're lucky if they spell
your name right after that. I mean I was lucky
in that I got I signed with the Good Good. Uh.
(51:13):
It was a director that had his own production company.
It was a Barry Levinson straight. I mean he's at
the time, he's one of the best directors going. He's
still working actually, uh. And then he you know, and
then we went to Columbia. But he hired a great writer,
Paul Antonazio, who kept it honest. Now there are some
(51:37):
you know, it's a movie. You know, they tell me
Donnie when Donnie Joe, we got to put asses in
the seats. Now for for you and for your audience.
There's a scene in there where I slapt my wife.
That never happened. I never I never slept my way.
That wasn't an original script that was put in later,
(51:58):
which I didn't know. Also, when they killed those three guys,
they had me sawing that guy's leg off with a
hack saw. I never saw anybody's leg off with a
hack saw. Okay, we did have a lion. We did
have a real lion. Uh. That's one of the questions
(52:18):
most people saying, did you have a lion? Yeah, we
really did have a lion in the club, and then
we put it. Then we put them in the h
in a warehouse.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
And what in the line used to shake people to
make sure they paid on time.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
No, No, we just we just had it for amusement,
that's all. Yes, for our own amusement, and me and
my wife never saw a psychiatrist. So but the rest
of the movie was the rest of the movement. To
get that movie was eighty five percent on the money
(52:55):
and to get eighty five percent out of a true
story even though it was a true story. If you
know Hollywood, you know, like I said, you're lucky if
they if they say or pronounce your name right once
they sign you.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
Well, sir, I cannot tell you what this conversation has
meant to me. I cannot tell you just how that movie,
I mean it did. It changed my life. I mean,
I knew what I wanted to try to do and
emulate in my career. So I just appreciate you so much.
I know we owe you more than five hundred dollars
(53:32):
in a medal, So I just want to say that,
but I do. I just appreciate you, and it's an honor.
Speaker 2 (53:38):
Well my pleasure sharel it really is, it really is.
And you take care, stay shafe.
Speaker 1 (53:47):
Thank you all right, y'all. I'm on end zone seven
the way that I always do with a quote. I
am not in the Federal Witness Protection Program. Joepah Stone
a k A. Donny Brasco. I'm Cheryl McCollum and this
is Zone seven
Speaker 2 (54:10):
H
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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