Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow were a famous American criminal couple who were part of a gang active in the 1930s. They were known for their bank robberies and murders, and their exploits captured the attention of the public during the Great Depression. They were killed in an ambush by police in 1934.
Guest Bio and Links:
Rhea Leen Linder is the niece of Bonnie Parker and a living “witness” to the aftermath of one of America’s most infamous love stories. She has spent decades speaking publicly about her family’s history, working to correct misconceptions, and fighting to fulfill Bonnie’s dying wish to be buried next to Clyde.
Perry Carver is the owner and curator of the Bonnie and Clyde Ambush Museum in Gibsland, Louisiana. He has preserved the legacy of the outlaws through firsthand artifacts, storytelling, and annual historical festivals that connect fans and family alike.
Visit the Bonnie & Clyde Ambush Museum in Gibsland.
In this episode of Zone 7, Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum, talks with Rhea Leen Linder, Bonnie Parker’s niece, and Perry Carver, curator of the Bonnie and Clyde Ambush Museum, for an intimate look at the real story behind America’s most infamous couple. Rhea Leen shares what it was like growing up in Bonnie’s shadow, how it shaped her identity, and why she’s spent years trying to reunite Bonnie and Clyde in death, a wish that’s led to an ongoing legal fight.
Show Notes:
- (0:00) Welcome back to Zone 7 with Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum
- (0:15) Sheryl introduces guest and niece of Bonny Parker, Rhea Leen Linder
- (1:00) Rhea Leen’s childhood in the shadow of infamy
- (6:00) The meaning behind her name
- (6:30) Sheryl welcomes second guest, Perry Carver to Zone 7
- (14:30) “Being able to die for your man does not fun in the family.”
- (15:30) Code words Bonnie and Clyde used
- (20:00) Misconceptions from the movie: Bonnie and Clyde - Released 1967
- (25:00) FBI surveillance and the watch list Llgacy
- (29:00) The green stamp story
- (33:00) The quest to bury Bonnie and Clyde together
- (37:00) Legal battle to honor Bonnie’s final wish
- (42:00) Value in preserving true history
- (44:00) Reflections
- (50:00) ”Someday they'll go down together and they'll bury 'em side by side. To a few it’ll be grief, to some a relief, but it's death for Bonnie and Clyde.”
- Thanks for listening to another episode! If you’re loving the show and want to help grow the show, please head over to Itunes and leave a rating and review!
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Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook., Cold Case: Pathways to Justice. Sheryl is also the founder and director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, a collaboration between universities and colleges that brings researchers, practitioners, students and the criminal justice community together to advance techniques in solving cold cases and assist families and law enforcement with solvability factors for unsolved homicides, missing persons, and kidnapping cases.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Tonight, we are gonna talk about two of the most
famous criminals in history and absolutely the most famous couple
in history, Bonnie and Clyde. Tonight, we're gonna take a
look at American history from the inside out. We're gonna
start with family and then we're gonna move to an expert.
(00:30):
Raylean Lender is Bonnie Parker's niece. Ray Lean. How are you, honey.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I'm doing great.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I am so happy to talk to you. I tell
you what, you are beautiful, you are sharp, you are funny,
you are vivacious. From what I understand, you're a lot
like Bonnie.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
I don't know exactly how to reply to that.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Well, what I mean is Bonnie was beautiful, she was vivacious.
She loved to dance.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Well, yeah, you got me there on the dancing anyway,
That's I've always been my favorite activity. But anyway, Bonnie,
from what I understand, you know heard and all that
she is very very outgoing, very vivacious, as she said
(01:29):
and all. And my dad, uh I didn't talk hardly
at all. He was so very very quiet, and uh,
Billy Jean was uh not as vivacious. So what I understand, Bonnie,
Bonnie got all the all those attributes.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Well, you learned a lot from her, from her sister,
and she helped raise you.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yes, hung Gene. Billy Jean uh raised me. Uh My
mother passed away when I was four, and uh then
I had a had a three year journey with my
mother's mother and step grandfather, and uh then I came
(02:16):
to live with uh daddy and Billy Jean and my grandmother,
Emma Parker when I was seven. Something people don't just
can't phantom is uh Bonnie and Clyde was not discussed,
you know in the daily conversations and all uh my grandmother,
(02:37):
you know, they had already lived through that, and uh
life went on, and uh so I didn't my name.
My birth name was Bonnie Ray Parker, and I was born,
uh in October. They passed away in May and I
was born in October. So you know, the my mother's
tribute to Bonnie I was, you know, I would think,
(03:01):
and you know, for years I didn't know anything about
Bonnie Parker. And kids would tell me that they couldn't
play with me and such there and I never did
know why. But you know, later years, you know it
was not the kids, it was their parents, and that
(03:23):
was all fresh back then, so took a while to
gain some understanding, you know as to why little kids
couldn't play together right.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Well, to protect you, your family changed your name, didn't they.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Well, Billy Jean did after my grandmother died. She died
when I was ten years old, so I only got
her for three years. And Billy Jean and I she
took me. H. My dad was a good person, but
he responsibilities wasn't especially of a kid. You know that
(04:01):
he barely knew either. Uh, But so she took me in.
She and I moved to uh, Gladewater, Texas, which as
it turned up, was my birth home. And my aunt,
my grandmother's sister, Leela Plumber, Pat Pat Plumber, she lived
in Gladewater. So Jeene and I moved down there, and
(04:25):
uh then we met this nice young man who worked
in the off fields named Troy Fraser, and we married.
We married Troy and moved to Stevens, Arkansas. And between Gladewater,
Texas and Stevens, Arkansas, I went from Bonnie Ray Parker
(04:46):
to ray Lean Fraser and uh that was his his
name was Troy Fraser. So and Jean became Geen Fraser,
which she kept that name for the rest of her life. Actually,
and uh so we moved to this little town off
Field Town, Stevens, Arkansas, and that's uh so, Actually we
(05:11):
we got out of it all, you know, out of
all of that. It was kind of ironic. I uh
started to Gladewater Grade School as Bonnie Parker and uh
and went back to middle school there as Raylene Fraser.
So uh and I still had I had two or
(05:34):
three there, you know, little friends there that was pretty
confused about my my name change there. But uh, I
asked Jean where in the world did she get the
name ray Lean and spelled like it is, and she
told me she saw it written somewhere and little did
(05:56):
she know, but I have been spelling it and pronouncing
it for the rest of my life. The r h
ea immediately throws people, you know, and I've been called
rhea and h you know, just different things. So uh
At finally in life I came to I answered, of
(06:18):
whatever you want to call me, I have no problem,
no problem.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Well, you know, you and I met through Perry Carver
and we are lucky enough to have Perry with us
tonight too. Perry, how are you I'm doing fine.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
How are y'all?
Speaker 1 (06:34):
I'm thrilled both of y'all are here, I'll tell you.
And you know, Perry owns the Bonnie and Clyde Ambush Museum,
And if y'all ever have a chance to get over there,
if you think you know the story, if you think
you know what artifacts might be left, this museum is
(06:54):
one of the best I've ever been to. It's the
most authentic I've ever seen. And he does a festival
every year that is absolutely a living history because he
has Ray Lean and he also has Buddy Bearra Clyde's nephew,
and so you get a chance to literally meet the family.
(07:17):
And one of the folks that Perry introduced me to
back in twenty fifteen was Boots Hinting. So Perry talked
a little bit about the museum and some of the
artifacts and some of the.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
People the museum actual.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
He's celebrating his twentieth anniversary this year, started by Ken Holmes,
ging owned the Bonnie and Clyde Movie Bar, which you
can see now in Pidgeon Forge, Tennessee. It's at Alcatraz East.
The museum, but you ran the museum for about ten
years and we lost Boots back in twenty fifteen at
(07:54):
the end of the year, and we missing the first
has been happening for thirty one years now. We're lucky
that Beddy and Raylene come every year. I mean, they
really are the highlight of the festival. They don't want
to admit it, but you know they come to see them.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Well, I know, the three of y'all came to Atlanta
and did an event for me and people lost their minds.
I mean, I was so surprised that some of the
people that came as young as they were. And I know, Raylene,
you've talked about going all the way to Germany in
different places and you have people come up to you
from all walks of life that are Bonnie and Clyde
(08:41):
fans as it were.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Yes, and the U in Germany, we were just floored.
You know, we come from from Texas and come to
find out how well uh you know, known and recognized
they were and knowledgeable that in modern modern Germany. Uh.
(09:03):
That was quite a you know, just a fantastic trip
for us because who would have ever thought, you know,
of Bonnie and Clyde being that far. But uh, that
was a great trip and the people were were so
nice and as I said, not you know, knowledgeable, and
we were on a TV show, was like, what's my
(09:24):
line in America? And uh, there it was I have
a famous relative. And the the uh, the judges that
the people that were there to judge were great. They
asked quite you know, very interesting questions and and uh
it wasn't just a silly thing. It was really it
(09:48):
was really interesting. We were pleasantly surprised that our little
bit of history was uh you know, uh wanted and
you know and accept it there.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Well, you know, when y'all came to Atlanta. One funny
thing that happened. We were at a bar and we
were just talking and there was not that many people
left in the bar. It's kind of late, and all
of a sudden, this young man walked up to us
and was like, are y'all talking about Bonnie and Clyde?
And Buddy looks at him and kind of grans and
(10:24):
said yeah, and he said you're you're related, And both
of y'all were like, we're related, and I'm related to
Bonnie and he said I'm related to you know, Clyde.
That young man had to be about twenty four give
or take. He took so many pictures with y'all. He
was just, I mean, his whole world changed. And he said,
(10:48):
you know, they were real gangsters. They were real gangsters,
and he wanted to post it all over his social
media that he had met y'all. It was just it
was something to see. But ray Lene, you have people
that get on social media and claim that they are
related to Bonnie and Clyde, and you know, as the
last direct descendant, that they are not.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Well, you know, but you can't really uh tell them
they're not you know, uh there. That's uh not cool
for one thing, But on the other, I know a
lot of times I will just ask, you know, a
simple question or which which side of the were you on,
(11:34):
the parker side or the or the barrel side? Which
side of the families are where you on? And everything,
and a lot of times you'll get crickets after that.
You know, you can kind of uh uh there. But
I don't ever tell somebody, oh, you know know, you're
you're not. My My question has always kind of been
(11:55):
is why why do you why would you want to
be ken that? You know, they were outlaws, they did
bad things and they paid the ultimate price for it,
So why would you want to be ken to them?
And some of the answers are you know that if
(12:17):
you get answers there pretty way out there.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
You know right well, you know, Bonnie was only twenty three,
and if you would talk a little bit about this
was a love story first.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
You know, I think I honestly believe that so strongly
that she would that her love for Clyde and his
for her for taking care of her after their accident.
You know, it was probably the strongest love story that
I honestly think I've ever heard and actually believed that
(12:54):
it was absolutely true. Therefore, more reasons than one. One thing.
She was young and and uh impressionable, I would say,
you know, uh for for the times and all and
uh uh their connection was at my my mother and
(13:16):
dad's house. Actually their first meeting was at my mother,
Edith's house and uh and Daddy's house uh there and
uh but it was evidently you know, bells started ringing
uh for them and uh Bonnie, I, for the uh
(13:39):
life of me, I can't really comprehend her her thinking
of knowing, you know, after getting so you know, far
into it where she couldn't get out uh, Billy. Jean
did tell me that at their meetings when they would
have these meetings out in h Irving you out Sours road,
(14:02):
and that everybody and and Jean said Clyde, including Clyde,
tried to get Bonnie to stay home while she still could,
and her choice was was no, that life without Clyde
would not be worth living. And uh so, uh so
(14:22):
it was her choice. You know, she she made her
own choice and that was her choice was to stay
by him. But I can honestly say that, uh, being
willing to die for your man does not run in
the family there, but I you know, uh, that's in
(14:45):
her in her short life. I will say she had
true love and bless her heart for that.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
You know, one thing I wish you would talk about
a little bit. When they had these meetings and the
whole family was going to be able to show up
and meet with them for a short period of time,
didn't they send messages by putting them in an empty
coke model and tossing it to say when and where
to meet.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Yes, that's my understanding. He would toss it out and
in front of his dad's filling station there and they would,
you know, of course get the message and then they
would call uh Ema my grandmother and say, I think
(15:35):
their code was they were having beans and corn bread
for supper. I think that was one of their code there,
that they would call my grandmother because my grandmother's phone
was tapped back at that time, and they knew it.
Kind of laugh because the things that they came up with.
(15:58):
Who would have thought of beans and farnbread, you know,
meaning our kids are coming and we're meeting them at
so and so and all. UH had to have you know,
uh some imagination or some fun, fun side of happening
going on then. But anyway, that was their code words,
(16:19):
and they would all meet out in uh out in Irving,
outside of these old roads and all that they felt
safe at. UH. Their Bonnie was so close to her mother,
and in fact, UH my dad and Billy Jean and
(16:42):
and Bonnie UH was was literally raised by my grandmother
because their dad died when uh Bill uh daddy was six,
Bonnie was four, and Billy Jeene was two. So my
grandmother raised them, you know, for the rest of their
uh child life and all. And they were just extremely
(17:04):
extremely close to my grandmother and she was the sweetest
lady uh just uh, you know, my memories of her
would she was just the sweetest lady you'd ever want
to meet. So they were extremely close. So Clyde would
bring Bonnie in. She would get to, you know, missing
her mother, and Clyde would bring her in sometime and
(17:26):
drop her off and then come back and get her,
you know, at a give her a few hours to visit,
and then come back by their house, by my grandmother's house,
and get Bonnie and you know, hit the road again.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Now, Perry, I know at the museum you have all
the books and all the movies and everything. It has
been reported that Bonnie and Clyde walked into one bank
and basically introduced themselves. But when you're here and ray
Lean talk about they use beans and warm bread. I
know for a fact in their gang they had nicknames.
(18:05):
Do you think that they walked into a bank and said,
we're Bonnie and Clyde.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
No number one.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
Bonnie never walked into a bank at all and try
to robble, you know, that's just that's just a parse
the They had her go in one time and he's
a bank look it over. And she was so conspicuous
that a couple of days later when Clyde and Raymond
walked in the bank teller and everybody had guns, so
they just back right back out of the bank. They
(18:33):
never asked her to do anything like that. Again, she
she wasn't a gangster. You know, Hollywood has created this
image of her, which is you know, a lot of
people admire the image, but she's nothing like she's made out.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
The number one.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
They were never called Bonnie and Clyde when they were
on the run. It was always Clyde and the barrows,
Clyde and his game, you know, whide it was always flied.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
You know.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
They made up a lot of stories about money after
they killed her. They the real story and Hollywood are
just two different things.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
And ray Leane, that's one thing. When that movie came
out in nineteen sixty eight, there's some things that are
not accurate in the movie. I do think they capture
the love story right, but there's a lot of other
things they got wrong. Do you want to talk about
the movie at all?
Speaker 2 (19:33):
I actually I didn't know anything about that. Jeane and
Blanche and Marie and Buddy, they all went to watch
it being filmed, and from what I understand, my aunt
Billy Jean was very unhappy with it and made it
very well known to everyone.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
There.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
So that that's not the way that they uh talked,
you know, when they certainly didn't go in and say
where the where the uh uh barrel gang Uh that
that's you know, it was just all uh you know,
ridiculous uh stuff. But from what I from Buddy and
(20:20):
what I understood, uh, Billy Jean made her her feelings
very well known, uh in language that uh uh was
you know, pretty pretty strong. So I'm glad that I
had to work and I didn't and I didn't go.
I was glad that I did. I wasn't there.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Yeah, they didn't want to come out in the first place.
I heard that Blanche met with Warren Baby, but Jeane
wouldn't do it.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Well I know, uh yeah that Blanche did. Jeane her
her whole attitude was there dead you know, Uh they're dead.
Let them uh live, you know, let them uh leave
them alone, you know, let them be they're dead. But uh, Blane,
and that's what I said about the festival. Uh. Bill
(21:09):
Jean would not have gone to the festival, but Blanche
would have loved it, you know there and but uh
you know, all all the years and everything, well, uh
we we literally hid from it. I actually have an
ex husband that did not know, ever know anything about it.
(21:31):
Uh there, And uh you know, it just we we
didn't talk about it. And and uh I have friends
that only discovered after fifty years, only discovered my connection
here in just the last few years. Uh there, because
you know, for one thing, how would you how would
(21:53):
you start a conversation like that walk up to somebody,
you know, hello, I'm ken to Bonnie Parker? How would that?
How would that conversation begin? And uh uh they're so
uh you know, we we just didn't live it. And
Marie and Blanche didn't either to uh you know, uh there.
(22:16):
But and uh she she was not as private, I
guess to say, as uh as Jeane you know was,
and ran with him.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
I mean she knew.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah, uh yeah, and she you know, she and Bonnie
were about to say she and Jean. I think there's
a year's difference. And Jeane and Blanche's Blanche was like
a year older than Jean and all, and they were
dear friends up until they passed away, you know. And
(22:52):
and Blanche was in our life and and Boots was
in our life, and of course Marie and uh so
they were close, you know, and uh in all but
uh they uh Jeane, Uh like I said, the conversations
were not all all the time, Bonnie and Clyde. That
(23:14):
just was not done. But uh, every now and then
you would uh or I'd get them then give them
Jeane and Blanche a couple of beers and uh and
then you'd hear some stories. Uh that'd get off onto
get to laughing about something. And I'm not sure all
that happened that they got, you know, was laughing about
(23:37):
by then. But uh anyway, now, ray Lee, one thing
you know is true is every time y'all moved when
you were younger, about a week or so, the sheriff
or somebody would show up, right and uh. And the
first time that I ever heard of that though, was
uh after we'd moved them to Cedar Creek and uh
(23:58):
Blanche was like a about two or three weeks behind
uh Jeane being moved there, and uh any and I
was there and uh uh one of them said, well,
I got my phone call, and h Blanche said, well,
I got my phone call, and Jean said, well, uh,
(24:20):
I got mine. About three weeks ago, and I said,
what are y'all talking about? And uh and they said,
and Jeane said that everywhere that we ever moved, that
within a week, uh the uh, she'd get either a
call or a come by to let her know that
(24:42):
they knew where she was, you know, and Blanche uh
and that's what they were saying, That's what they were
alluding to, was, uh, the phone call letting them know
that they knew where they were, you know, that they moved.
And I just got indignant. I just oh, I was
just beside myself. How on the world these two little old,
(25:05):
gray haired ladies and the police are still keeping up
with them after, you know, all these years.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I was just terrible about it. And Jeane told me,
she said, well, ray lean to ever placed you and
I ever moved, She said, they let me know, you know,
pretty quick, that they knew that we were there. And
then I got to laugh and I got to think about, well,
we moved a lot, so they they they were kept busy,
(25:34):
We kept them busy keeping up with us because we
did move a lot.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
So I made them earn the money.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Right exactly. So, So I come off of I come
off my indignity.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
And they were on the FBI watched list till the
day they were died. They were they were Blanche was
always worried that somebody might one day come back and
indict her for the murders and Joplin.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
That was always in the back of her mind, that
she was and she was.
Speaker 4 (26:06):
Always worried about one of these family members wanting to
indict her, you know, for murder. And you know, of
course she had nothing to do with any of that.
And I really believe that Monted Money and Blanche both
after the job and shootout for probably in a little
state of shock.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
You know, they had never they had never seen.
Speaker 4 (26:27):
Anything like that before and when it all happened, and
it happened really fast, really fast.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
There's there's a lot about.
Speaker 4 (26:35):
Jobs that a lot of people don't know about, but
the gunfight itself was really fast.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Well, Perry, she had a reason to be a little
paranoid about it, I guess. I mean, she had family
members that went to jail for harboring them. I mean,
they did come after other people.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
Well, you know, the best thing was she didn't come
back into their their their company and stuff too. After
her her husband passed away, and she was an older lady.
You know, she never None of these people ever profited
from any of this. They never, they never, you know,
(27:13):
they never reveled in it. You know, it was something
that they you know, they were very bad about the
sixty seven movie. Emma Clyde's mother, she was furious when
they would show the hinting tape at the movie theaters.
She would show up and raise Kane and rip the
(27:35):
posters down and stuff.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
And she now tell.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
People about that. In case they don't know, Perry, tell
them about the hinting tape.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
Well, Ted was Ted carried around a movie camera, you know,
they had given him in case, you know, when it happened,
he could videotape at all.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Ted Hinton was part of the group that ambushed Bonnie
and Clyde. So the tape he's talking about is a
little early their death.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
Go ahead, Perry and uh and and during the movie breaks,
they would show this video for crime that and pay.
They had several ones they would show, but they would
show this one and show them and the car and
stuff in the end, and it hurt the family is
really bad, you know. But a lot of people don't
realize when Bonny was killed. Not just their mother was
(28:25):
still alive, but her grandmother was still alive. And uh,
you know this, this was a very hard thing on
these families after it happened.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Uh, it was.
Speaker 4 (28:35):
It was a rough two years while they were on
the run, but it was even harder on them after
they were killed. You know, people were always wanting a
story or or well, you know, Beside's older brother went
to prison, uh for a murderer that he probably didn't do,
but he went because the name was Barrow.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
People blamed them for bank robberies they didn't do because
they were in states that they were never even in.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
Oh, they got blamed for a lot of stuff they
didn't do, and they probably got away with a few
things they didn't do.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Now that's valid.
Speaker 4 (29:10):
They were not these two praise killers, you know they
if they were, they would have never lasted two years.
You know, John Dillinger didn't run, but not even a
whole year.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (29:23):
And Clyde was on the run for a whole year
before John ever got out of prison. And a lot
of people were helping them out. They felt sorry for him,
They helped them. BLD didn't rob everybody you come across
these they didn't kill everybody come across. And their story
is just it's a very unique story.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Now, ray Lean, I have to get you to tell
one story. Will you please tell the green stamp store story.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
You can visualize these two little, uh, two little old
gray haired women about five foot one apiece and this
was back during the green stamp phase, and they had
their green stamps saved up and their books and all,
and there was a store that they went to that
(30:19):
they could choose different items in exchange for their green stamps.
And they were standing and Jeane told me this that
they were standing in line and said it was a
long line, and this lady in front of them kept
getting them to hold my place, and Jean said, changing
(30:43):
her mind, and she'd turn around to them save my place,
and then take off to get whatever it was she wanted.
And Jean said they finally got up to the counter
and said, this woman plopped her purse up on the
counter and it was just Jean said, we was just
a big old person and it just flopped wide open
(31:03):
when she put it up there, and said, anyway, then
the woman turns around one more time and says, uh,
save my place one more time. Uh saved my place again,
and Jean said that. Uh they said, you know, of course, okay,
and then uh Jean one, Jeane and Blanche they looked
at each other and one of them said, boy, if
(31:24):
she only knew who we were, you know. And I've
just that's always been hilarious to me because these two
little old, tiny, gray haired women were notorious, you know,
back and this woman didn't know that she had, uh
the these uh Parker and Barrow uh women watching her
(31:47):
purse of all things, you know. So that's always I
just just know when Blanche and Jean and their their
dry wit, uh, you never knew what was going to
come out of her mouth. And and like that's what
I was saying. To give them a couple of beers.
And I'm not sure all that stuff happened that they
(32:08):
would get to laughing about, but anyway, it made for
good stories for them.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Absolutely. I'm sorry, go ahead back, No.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
I was just going to say, just the the picture
in my mind of the two of those little old women,
you know, being notorious.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
You know, hey, Blade held her own. I mean, Blade
was pretty notorious. She even got shot.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Come on out, I'll tell you. But you know, I didn't.
I didn't know all that, you know, all that stuff.
It just wasn't discussed. So when when they would get
to talking about it, sometime I would just listen in
all you here again, you know in my picture of
(32:59):
their my my is these two little, old, tiny, gray
haired women. Uh there. It was hard to visualize them
out doing some of the shenanigans that that they they did.
Uh there but uh but they you know, they both
lived a quiet, productive life after they survived their shenanigans.
(33:22):
Uh so to speak, they they they they didn't do
that stuff anymore.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Work right now, Perry, me and you and Buddy and
ray Lene got to get together last March. Tell everybody
what you brought so that I could hold it.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
Oh, I brought a pistol that was I'd purchased from
the grandson of the man that owned the mirror glass
and mirror company that Clyde work for. The gun was
I don't know where the gun came from, but Bonnie
(34:00):
had it and she gave it to her mother. They
were people when somebody was stealing their chickens or something,
and the gun was given to her mother, And of
course her mother woul't want the gun she gave it
to Gene, and Gene ended up somehow giving it back
to this this man. And I just just stayed with
his family until he called me one day.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
He had the He wanted to give me the sign.
He had the original sign.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
From where Clyde would work out with his grandfather and
actually when they eventually went on the run, he would
hide Clyde out, you know, clide and BINDI give him
a place to stay for a little while.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
And I mean when I say a little while, I
mean a.
Speaker 4 (34:39):
Few hours, you know, not for weeks at a time
or nothing. But he said, you know, if when Clyde
got out of prison, if they would have just left
him alone, he would have been okay, he said, but
they would show up at his job and harass him,
harass his grandfather for hiring him. And a lot of
times it wasn't because Clyde committed to crime, but he
(35:00):
knew who did, and you know, and it just was
the real story about him, sad and tragic. But I
did get the gun, and yeah, it's here at the
museum now on display, and Bonnie was starting to carve
her name in it. So she's got like a half
a pee or a half to be I have to
be on it. She didn't get it all done. I
(35:22):
have a pistol that came out of the death car.
I have a shotgun that was recovered from Dexter, Iowa.
I have several other shotguns that were I bought it
auctions or I've got one from I got from my buddy.
Because he still has a few items that are probably
going to go up for auction one day, I don't
(35:43):
think I could.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Give him the money that he well deserves for this stuff.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
I'll be it on him, but I'm sure that somebody
allowed bidding me for these things that he still has.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
And ray Lanland we met in Texas last March. You
showed up. You looked like lightning in a bottle. I mean,
you were put together, so fabulous, and you walked in
and my brother in law looked to be in here
went there ain't no way. She's the age, you said.
(36:15):
I said, I'm telling you, she's unbelievable, remarkable, And you said, y'all,
I'm sorry, I'm a little late. Do you remember what
you said?
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Probably the resurrection resurrection takes longer and longer, because that,
trust me, that is true. There as I told you
the other night. You know, do I need to make
to do makeup for this event today?
Speaker 4 (36:46):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (36:46):
There, because I don't answer my door without makeup on Uh.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
I've never seen you where you were not stunning. But
you know, when we were all having lunch, we talked
about something that you have worked for for ninety years.
What have you been trying to make happen?
Speaker 2 (37:06):
We've been, oh, for several years now, trying to get
Bonnie back with Clyde. Uh there that this was her
her her wish and his wish and uh and she
made it, you know, very plain to my grandmother and
you know, and uh everyone that and it only stands
(37:29):
to reason that they should be together. Uh. They they
died together, they lived together, they died together, and they
should be rested the rest of their you know, being together.
And uh So it's been quite a frustrating, stressful thing,
(37:49):
but we're still hanging in there. The uh we we
the for where Bonnie is buried. Uh. He does not
want her moved. He he uh he uses her for
advertising uh there, which you know rightfully, so I guess.
And but he he has fought us, ever, fought me
(38:11):
every step, and he has brought up some of the
most ridiculous, outlandish reasons why she should not be moved.
And the thing is she's already been moved once. Uh
there and from the uh fish trap cemetery where the
(38:31):
my grandmother and them uh at that my great grandmother
and I were buried. That was their family plot. And
uh Bonnie was buried on top of Billy Jean's two babies. Uh.
They died four days apart, two years before Bonnie was killed.
(38:51):
So uh anyway, and so Billy Jean bought these four
places at Crown Hill, and when my grandmother died, Jean
had had my grandmother buried there, and then she had
Bonnie and the babies moved to the Crown Hill place.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
Well.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Uh, and then my dad when he passed away, he's
buried at my grandmother's feet and they Anyway, this guy
that owns the cemetery just does not want to move,
and he's fought us. We've now won twice in court
and we're now then he appealed to the appellate court,
so we're waiting to hear that on that. But even
(39:32):
the judge asked him, said why are you doing this?
And his statement was kind of well, I don't think
she's got enough reason, good enough reason to move her
was his you know, and nobody, nobody can figure out
what the attorneys. We have some really good attorneys working
(39:53):
with us dollar and nobody can figure out what is
his deal?
Speaker 4 (39:56):
You know.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
The attorneys now, uh say there said they're mad at
you for keeping it going. You know, so he's he's
trying to break me so to speak, you know, uh,
by keeping the attorneys, you know, keeping them working, so
(40:19):
to speak. So anyway, we're we're still hoping. And I
believe with everything that I have that that this needs
to be done. And if Buddy and I don't get
it done, then you know, it won't happen. And uh,
you know, I just feel so strongly it was her desire.
It makes sense and why not, you know?
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Amen?
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Right on. They actually had an event yesterday that I
didn't go to at the cemetery at the Western Nights Cemetery.
Again we have attended that before, people that have have
people that are buried. There's kind of an all day
you know, through and some historians are there, you know,
(41:04):
a very interesting event and there and there are redoing
refurbishing the cemetery. The Western Heights cemetery, and so I'm
involved with all of those people anyway. So it's not
a railing only desire, you know, it's something that people
(41:24):
other people feel strong about.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
To Yeah, one of them. I think they deserved to
be together.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Yeah exactly, you know, just common sense there and all.
And I want to have a plaque made of haven't
decided Bonnie and Clyde together again, you know, put it
their graves because uh. And the thing is, this grave
(41:52):
site has been saved for Bonnie. Mister Barrow offered it
to my grandmother. And I can understand my grandmother's feeling
is completely at that time. He had her in life,
he can't have her in death. I can feel that.
But I can assure you my grandmother was not thinking
ninety years from then. What you know, the the the
(42:14):
interest uh and from the from the gory side plus
the the uh you know, the history side of it
of them. Still the interest that is still in you know,
shown to them and all. And uh so I I
uh if we do have another cemetery, Grove Hill that
(42:38):
that has a lot of the Barrows are buried at
Grove Hill, and he is uh is diligently working with
us through through all of this. Also we have his backing.
Uh uh there for forget you know, forgetting this to happen.
It'll happen, but it's just, uh it seems to be
(42:59):
after the battle, you know. And uh as long as
I uh have the you know, uh, I have the
the total desire to to get her moved and then
and then then I'm done with Bonnie and Clyde.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Well, I remember years and years ago you and I
talked about this for the first time, and I'm like,
what is his issue? What is his problem? And I
asked you, I said, is he just waiting for you
to die? Thinking this will just go away? And you said, well,
I might not be that healthy, but I'm that stubborn.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
And that's that's very true.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
And how we are to that?
Speaker 2 (43:47):
Right? I said, I'm not a fighter, but I am
hard headed, you know. So uh, that's right, you know.
And the fact of all the people that I have met,
you know, just including you and Perry and Walt and
Huck and Caroline and you know, and many many other
(44:09):
people that I have had the pleasure of meeting through
all of this, So it's worth the fight, you know,
just to maintain my friendship with everyone.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Well, we love you and we are here for you,
and we absolutely believe Bonnie needs to be moved. But
aside from Bonnie and Clyde, you are a wonderful person,
a spectacular human being, and we are all lucky to
know you.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
And that's the great part of it, you know, that
to me because actually, you know, my kids and I
and my granddaughter and then my three great grandkids. You know,
that's that's my family, you know. Now until I got
in and met you know, had the pleasure of meeting
(44:59):
all of y'all and so many other people too that
uh uh you know that, Uh it's very important. And
uh my daughter, Lacey, my son, whatever Lacey and I
tell him to do, that's what he does, you know,
bless his heart. But Lacey's in it, you know with me,
(45:23):
and uh there and just uh uh you know, just
really thankful for you know, for for her and her
her knowledge and her willingness to you know, to see
see through all of this, see is through all of
this and.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
All she did a wonderful job on that book, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (45:46):
Didn't she though, uh you know. And the thing was,
I teased Buddy over and over about he gave her
a two hundred and ninety four page sentence, you know,
and trust me, that's that's actually true. And bless her heart,
it was uh you know, and she had not done
(46:10):
that sort of formatting and her imagination, you know, and
and setting it up like she did. It wasn't just
a page by page all all story.
Speaker 3 (46:22):
When you read it, it's like Buddy's talking to you.
Speaker 4 (46:25):
I mean she I don't know how she did it,
but she did it where when you read it, it's
just like Buddy's telling you the story himself.
Speaker 3 (46:34):
And she just did an awesome job at it.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
She did amazing so much you know, work and and
and buddies knowledge and memories and you know, there was
a lot of work, a lot of work put into
into it.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
We're going to have several other authors here this year.
Speaker 4 (46:56):
Of course, we're going to be selling your book, and
havn't y'all sign your book, but we've got a new
book on Henderson Jorden coming out at the author will
be your signing this book.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
We have Brad that's Brad Dyson. I believe it. I've
talked to him. Yeah, I've talked to Brad before very much. Yeah, yeah,
very much, so uh there, so yeah, we're looking forward
to it. Uh there, Linda, Lenda and I you know,
will be there, my uh my, my my niece, my
(47:29):
great travel buddy, uh uh there. So yeah, we've already
got reservations and we'll we'll uh we'll be there.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
Well, y'all, I cannot tell you how much I have
enjoyed this conversation and we are just going to have
to do it again because there's a whole lot we
ain't got to. And if you have a chance this
summer while you're traveling to get by the Bonny and
Clyde Ambush Museum, I am telling you if you think
you know, oh, you need to swing by there, because
(48:02):
there's so much you don't know.
Speaker 4 (48:04):
I promise you you got a great little restaurant and
a great little cook.
Speaker 2 (48:08):
And I was going to bring up the h the
restaurant and Stacey there well well worthy the jump off
of I twenty.
Speaker 4 (48:24):
If you're not watching your waistline and you don't care
about it, come on in here and then.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
Go get you some fried baloney. Harry Carver, thank you
so much. I just adore you and I appreciate it.
And Rayleigh Linder I mean, I just cannot tell you
how much I love and adore you, and I appreciate
you and thank you so much for sharing literally American
history with us.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
Well, it's it's my pleasure. I feel very inadequate with
the knowledge that like Perry has and Buddy has and all,
but I still toss my two cents in there. So
it's it's my pleasure. That's my phone, that's my fun
(49:14):
My ring tone is honky tonk. Can't you say this
little old ninety year old woman walking through Walmart with
her phone playing honky Tonk?
Speaker 1 (49:25):
I can absolutely well.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
I have a few dance steps that I can toss
in there.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
Too, Yes, ma'am, no doubt.
Speaker 2 (49:35):
But it's my pleasure. And you know, I just I
appreciate being accepted, you know, by by everyone, and it's it's, uh,
it's really been interesting anyway. I appreciate ben, you know,
accepted and and all. It's my pleasure and Lacey's pleasure.
(50:00):
She's grabbing the phones here trying to cut them off,
you know, Eryl.
Speaker 3 (50:06):
And greatly. And I'll see you in a couple of weeks.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
Er. That's right.
Speaker 1 (50:11):
I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I
always do with a quote. Someday they'll go down together,
and they'll bury them side by side. To a few
will be grief, to the law of relief. But it's
death for Bonnie and Clyde, A poem by Bonnie Parker.
I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.
Tonight, we are gonna talk about two of the most
famous criminals in history and absolutely the most famous couple
in history, Bonnie and Clyde. Tonight, we're gonna take a
look at American history from the inside out. We're gonna
start with family and then we're gonna move to an expert.
(00:30):
Raylean Lender is Bonnie Parker's niece. Ray Lean. How are you, honey.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I'm doing great.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I am so happy to talk to you. I tell
you what, you are beautiful, you are sharp, you are funny,
you are vivacious. From what I understand, you're a lot
like Bonnie.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
I don't know exactly how to reply to that.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Well, what I mean is Bonnie was beautiful, she was vivacious.
She loved to dance.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Well, yeah, you got me there on the dancing anyway,
That's I've always been my favorite activity. But anyway, Bonnie,
from what I understand, you know heard and all that
she is very very outgoing, very vivacious, as she said
(01:29):
and all. And my dad, uh I didn't talk hardly
at all. He was so very very quiet, and uh,
Billy Jean was uh not as vivacious. So what I understand, Bonnie,
Bonnie got all the all those attributes.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Well, you learned a lot from her, from her sister,
and she helped raise you.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yes, hung Gene. Billy Jean uh raised me. Uh My
mother passed away when I was four, and uh then
I had a had a three year journey with my
mother's mother and step grandfather, and uh then I came
(02:16):
to live with uh daddy and Billy Jean and my grandmother,
Emma Parker when I was seven. Something people don't just
can't phantom is uh Bonnie and Clyde was not discussed,
you know in the daily conversations and all uh my grandmother,
(02:37):
you know, they had already lived through that, and uh
life went on, and uh so I didn't my name.
My birth name was Bonnie Ray Parker, and I was born,
uh in October. They passed away in May and I
was born in October. So you know, the my mother's
tribute to Bonnie I was, you know, I would think,
(03:01):
and you know, for years I didn't know anything about
Bonnie Parker. And kids would tell me that they couldn't
play with me and such there and I never did
know why. But you know, later years, you know it
was not the kids, it was their parents, and that
(03:23):
was all fresh back then, so took a while to
gain some understanding, you know as to why little kids
couldn't play together right.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Well, to protect you, your family changed your name, didn't they.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Well, Billy Jean did after my grandmother died. She died
when I was ten years old, so I only got
her for three years. And Billy Jean and I she
took me. H. My dad was a good person, but
he responsibilities wasn't especially of a kid. You know that
(04:01):
he barely knew either. Uh, But so she took me in.
She and I moved to uh, Gladewater, Texas, which as
it turned up, was my birth home. And my aunt,
my grandmother's sister, Leela Plumber, Pat Pat Plumber, she lived
in Gladewater. So Jeene and I moved down there, and
(04:25):
uh then we met this nice young man who worked
in the off fields named Troy Fraser, and we married.
We married Troy and moved to Stevens, Arkansas. And between Gladewater,
Texas and Stevens, Arkansas, I went from Bonnie Ray Parker
(04:46):
to ray Lean Fraser and uh that was his his
name was Troy Fraser. So and Jean became Geen Fraser,
which she kept that name for the rest of her life. Actually,
and uh so we moved to this little town off
Field Town, Stevens, Arkansas, and that's uh so, Actually we
(05:11):
we got out of it all, you know, out of
all of that. It was kind of ironic. I uh
started to Gladewater Grade School as Bonnie Parker and uh
and went back to middle school there as Raylene Fraser.
So uh and I still had I had two or
(05:34):
three there, you know, little friends there that was pretty
confused about my my name change there. But uh, I
asked Jean where in the world did she get the
name ray Lean and spelled like it is, and she
told me she saw it written somewhere and little did
(05:56):
she know, but I have been spelling it and pronouncing
it for the rest of my life. The r h
ea immediately throws people, you know, and I've been called
rhea and h you know, just different things. So uh
At finally in life I came to I answered, of
(06:18):
whatever you want to call me, I have no problem,
no problem.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Well, you know, you and I met through Perry Carver
and we are lucky enough to have Perry with us
tonight too. Perry, how are you I'm doing fine.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
How are y'all?
Speaker 1 (06:34):
I'm thrilled both of y'all are here, I'll tell you.
And you know, Perry owns the Bonnie and Clyde Ambush Museum,
And if y'all ever have a chance to get over there,
if you think you know the story, if you think
you know what artifacts might be left, this museum is
(06:54):
one of the best I've ever been to. It's the
most authentic I've ever seen. And he does a festival
every year that is absolutely a living history because he
has Ray Lean and he also has Buddy Bearra Clyde's nephew,
and so you get a chance to literally meet the family.
(07:17):
And one of the folks that Perry introduced me to
back in twenty fifteen was Boots Hinting. So Perry talked
a little bit about the museum and some of the
artifacts and some of the.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
People the museum actual.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
He's celebrating his twentieth anniversary this year, started by Ken Holmes,
ging owned the Bonnie and Clyde Movie Bar, which you
can see now in Pidgeon Forge, Tennessee. It's at Alcatraz East.
The museum, but you ran the museum for about ten
years and we lost Boots back in twenty fifteen at
(07:54):
the end of the year, and we missing the first
has been happening for thirty one years now. We're lucky
that Beddy and Raylene come every year. I mean, they
really are the highlight of the festival. They don't want
to admit it, but you know they come to see them.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Well, I know, the three of y'all came to Atlanta
and did an event for me and people lost their minds.
I mean, I was so surprised that some of the
people that came as young as they were. And I know, Raylene,
you've talked about going all the way to Germany in
different places and you have people come up to you
from all walks of life that are Bonnie and Clyde
(08:41):
fans as it were.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Yes, and the U in Germany, we were just floored.
You know, we come from from Texas and come to
find out how well uh you know, known and recognized
they were and knowledgeable that in modern modern Germany. Uh.
(09:03):
That was quite a you know, just a fantastic trip
for us because who would have ever thought, you know,
of Bonnie and Clyde being that far. But uh, that
was a great trip and the people were were so
nice and as I said, not you know, knowledgeable, and
we were on a TV show, was like, what's my
(09:24):
line in America? And uh, there it was I have
a famous relative. And the the uh, the judges that
the people that were there to judge were great. They
asked quite you know, very interesting questions and and uh
it wasn't just a silly thing. It was really it
(09:48):
was really interesting. We were pleasantly surprised that our little
bit of history was uh you know, uh wanted and
you know and accept it there.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Well, you know, when y'all came to Atlanta. One funny
thing that happened. We were at a bar and we
were just talking and there was not that many people
left in the bar. It's kind of late, and all
of a sudden, this young man walked up to us
and was like, are y'all talking about Bonnie and Clyde?
And Buddy looks at him and kind of grans and
(10:24):
said yeah, and he said you're you're related, And both
of y'all were like, we're related, and I'm related to
Bonnie and he said I'm related to you know, Clyde.
That young man had to be about twenty four give
or take. He took so many pictures with y'all. He
was just, I mean, his whole world changed. And he said,
(10:48):
you know, they were real gangsters. They were real gangsters,
and he wanted to post it all over his social
media that he had met y'all. It was just it
was something to see. But ray Lene, you have people
that get on social media and claim that they are
related to Bonnie and Clyde, and you know, as the
last direct descendant, that they are not.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Well, you know, but you can't really uh tell them
they're not you know, uh there. That's uh not cool
for one thing, But on the other, I know a
lot of times I will just ask, you know, a
simple question or which which side of the were you on,
(11:34):
the parker side or the or the barrel side? Which
side of the families are where you on? And everything,
and a lot of times you'll get crickets after that.
You know, you can kind of uh uh there. But
I don't ever tell somebody, oh, you know know, you're
you're not. My My question has always kind of been
(11:55):
is why why do you why would you want to
be ken that? You know, they were outlaws, they did
bad things and they paid the ultimate price for it,
So why would you want to be ken to them?
And some of the answers are you know that if
(12:17):
you get answers there pretty way out there.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
You know right well, you know, Bonnie was only twenty three,
and if you would talk a little bit about this
was a love story first.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
You know, I think I honestly believe that so strongly
that she would that her love for Clyde and his
for her for taking care of her after their accident.
You know, it was probably the strongest love story that
I honestly think I've ever heard and actually believed that
(12:54):
it was absolutely true. Therefore, more reasons than one. One thing.
She was young and and uh impressionable, I would say,
you know, uh for for the times and all and
uh uh their connection was at my my mother and
(13:16):
dad's house. Actually their first meeting was at my mother,
Edith's house and uh and Daddy's house uh there and
uh but it was evidently you know, bells started ringing
uh for them and uh Bonnie, I, for the uh
(13:39):
life of me, I can't really comprehend her her thinking
of knowing, you know, after getting so you know, far
into it where she couldn't get out uh, Billy. Jean
did tell me that at their meetings when they would
have these meetings out in h Irving you out Sours road,
(14:02):
and that everybody and and Jean said Clyde, including Clyde,
tried to get Bonnie to stay home while she still could,
and her choice was was no, that life without Clyde
would not be worth living. And uh so, uh so
(14:22):
it was her choice. You know, she she made her
own choice and that was her choice was to stay
by him. But I can honestly say that, uh, being
willing to die for your man does not run in
the family there, but I you know, uh, that's in
(14:45):
her in her short life. I will say she had
true love and bless her heart for that.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
You know, one thing I wish you would talk about
a little bit. When they had these meetings and the
whole family was going to be able to show up
and meet with them for a short period of time,
didn't they send messages by putting them in an empty
coke model and tossing it to say when and where
to meet.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Yes, that's my understanding. He would toss it out and
in front of his dad's filling station there and they would,
you know, of course get the message and then they
would call uh Ema my grandmother and say, I think
(15:35):
their code was they were having beans and corn bread
for supper. I think that was one of their code there,
that they would call my grandmother because my grandmother's phone
was tapped back at that time, and they knew it.
Kind of laugh because the things that they came up with.
(15:58):
Who would have thought of beans and farnbread, you know,
meaning our kids are coming and we're meeting them at
so and so and all. UH had to have you know,
uh some imagination or some fun, fun side of happening
going on then. But anyway, that was their code words,
(16:19):
and they would all meet out in uh out in Irving,
outside of these old roads and all that they felt
safe at. UH. Their Bonnie was so close to her mother,
and in fact, UH my dad and Billy Jean and
(16:42):
and Bonnie UH was was literally raised by my grandmother
because their dad died when uh Bill uh daddy was six,
Bonnie was four, and Billy Jeene was two. So my
grandmother raised them, you know, for the rest of their
uh child life and all. And they were just extremely
(17:04):
extremely close to my grandmother and she was the sweetest
lady uh just uh, you know, my memories of her
would she was just the sweetest lady you'd ever want
to meet. So they were extremely close. So Clyde would
bring Bonnie in. She would get to, you know, missing
her mother, and Clyde would bring her in sometime and
(17:26):
drop her off and then come back and get her,
you know, at a give her a few hours to visit,
and then come back by their house, by my grandmother's house,
and get Bonnie and you know, hit the road again.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Now, Perry, I know at the museum you have all
the books and all the movies and everything. It has
been reported that Bonnie and Clyde walked into one bank
and basically introduced themselves. But when you're here and ray
Lean talk about they use beans and warm bread. I
know for a fact in their gang they had nicknames.
(18:05):
Do you think that they walked into a bank and said,
we're Bonnie and Clyde.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
No number one.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
Bonnie never walked into a bank at all and try
to robble, you know, that's just that's just a parse
the They had her go in one time and he's
a bank look it over. And she was so conspicuous
that a couple of days later when Clyde and Raymond
walked in the bank teller and everybody had guns, so
they just back right back out of the bank. They
(18:33):
never asked her to do anything like that. Again, she
she wasn't a gangster. You know, Hollywood has created this
image of her, which is you know, a lot of
people admire the image, but she's nothing like she's made out.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
The number one.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
They were never called Bonnie and Clyde when they were
on the run. It was always Clyde and the barrows,
Clyde and his game, you know, whide it was always flied.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
You know.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
They made up a lot of stories about money after
they killed her. They the real story and Hollywood are
just two different things.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
And ray Leane, that's one thing. When that movie came
out in nineteen sixty eight, there's some things that are
not accurate in the movie. I do think they capture
the love story right, but there's a lot of other
things they got wrong. Do you want to talk about
the movie at all?
Speaker 2 (19:33):
I actually I didn't know anything about that. Jeane and
Blanche and Marie and Buddy, they all went to watch
it being filmed, and from what I understand, my aunt
Billy Jean was very unhappy with it and made it
very well known to everyone.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
There.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
So that that's not the way that they uh talked,
you know, when they certainly didn't go in and say
where the where the uh uh barrel gang Uh that
that's you know, it was just all uh you know,
ridiculous uh stuff. But from what I from Buddy and
(20:20):
what I understood, uh, Billy Jean made her her feelings
very well known, uh in language that uh uh was
you know, pretty pretty strong. So I'm glad that I
had to work and I didn't and I didn't go.
I was glad that I did. I wasn't there.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Yeah, they didn't want to come out in the first place.
I heard that Blanche met with Warren Baby, but Jeane
wouldn't do it.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Well I know, uh yeah that Blanche did. Jeane her
her whole attitude was there dead you know, Uh they're dead.
Let them uh live, you know, let them uh leave
them alone, you know, let them be they're dead. But uh, Blane,
and that's what I said about the festival. Uh. Bill
(21:09):
Jean would not have gone to the festival, but Blanche
would have loved it, you know there and but uh
you know, all all the years and everything, well, uh
we we literally hid from it. I actually have an
ex husband that did not know, ever know anything about it.
(21:31):
Uh there, And uh you know, it just we we
didn't talk about it. And and uh I have friends
that only discovered after fifty years, only discovered my connection
here in just the last few years. Uh there, because
you know, for one thing, how would you how would
(21:53):
you start a conversation like that walk up to somebody,
you know, hello, I'm ken to Bonnie Parker? How would that?
How would that conversation begin? And uh uh they're so
uh you know, we we just didn't live it. And
Marie and Blanche didn't either to uh you know, uh there.
(22:16):
But and uh she she was not as private, I
guess to say, as uh as Jeane you know was,
and ran with him.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
I mean she knew.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah, uh yeah, and she you know, she and Bonnie
were about to say she and Jean. I think there's
a year's difference. And Jeane and Blanche's Blanche was like
a year older than Jean and all, and they were
dear friends up until they passed away, you know. And
(22:52):
and Blanche was in our life and and Boots was
in our life, and of course Marie and uh so
they were close, you know, and uh in all but
uh they uh Jeane, Uh like I said, the conversations
were not all all the time, Bonnie and Clyde. That
(23:14):
just was not done. But uh, every now and then
you would uh or I'd get them then give them
Jeane and Blanche a couple of beers and uh and
then you'd hear some stories. Uh that'd get off onto
get to laughing about something. And I'm not sure all
that happened that they got, you know, was laughing about
(23:37):
by then. But uh anyway, now, ray Lee, one thing
you know is true is every time y'all moved when
you were younger, about a week or so, the sheriff
or somebody would show up, right and uh. And the
first time that I ever heard of that though, was
uh after we'd moved them to Cedar Creek and uh
(23:58):
Blanche was like a about two or three weeks behind
uh Jeane being moved there, and uh any and I
was there and uh uh one of them said, well,
I got my phone call, and h Blanche said, well,
I got my phone call, and Jean said, well, uh,
(24:20):
I got mine. About three weeks ago, and I said,
what are y'all talking about? And uh and they said,
and Jeane said that everywhere that we ever moved, that
within a week, uh the uh, she'd get either a
call or a come by to let her know that
(24:42):
they knew where she was, you know, and Blanche uh
and that's what they were saying, That's what they were
alluding to, was, uh, the phone call letting them know
that they knew where they were, you know, that they moved.
And I just got indignant. I just oh, I was
just beside myself. How on the world these two little old,
(25:05):
gray haired ladies and the police are still keeping up
with them after, you know, all these years.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I was just terrible about it. And Jeane told me,
she said, well, ray lean to ever placed you and
I ever moved, She said, they let me know, you know,
pretty quick, that they knew that we were there. And
then I got to laugh and I got to think about, well,
we moved a lot, so they they they were kept busy,
(25:34):
We kept them busy keeping up with us because we
did move a lot.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
So I made them earn the money.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Right exactly. So, So I come off of I come
off my indignity.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
And they were on the FBI watched list till the
day they were died. They were they were Blanche was
always worried that somebody might one day come back and
indict her for the murders and Joplin.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
That was always in the back of her mind, that
she was and she was.
Speaker 4 (26:06):
Always worried about one of these family members wanting to
indict her, you know, for murder. And you know, of
course she had nothing to do with any of that.
And I really believe that Monted Money and Blanche both
after the job and shootout for probably in a little
state of shock.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
You know, they had never they had never seen.
Speaker 4 (26:27):
Anything like that before and when it all happened, and
it happened really fast, really fast.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
There's there's a lot about.
Speaker 4 (26:35):
Jobs that a lot of people don't know about, but
the gunfight itself was really fast.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Well, Perry, she had a reason to be a little
paranoid about it, I guess. I mean, she had family
members that went to jail for harboring them. I mean,
they did come after other people.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
Well, you know, the best thing was she didn't come
back into their their their company and stuff too. After
her her husband passed away, and she was an older lady.
You know, she never None of these people ever profited
from any of this. They never, they never, you know,
(27:13):
they never reveled in it. You know, it was something
that they you know, they were very bad about the
sixty seven movie. Emma Clyde's mother, she was furious when
they would show the hinting tape at the movie theaters.
She would show up and raise Kane and rip the
(27:35):
posters down and stuff.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
And she now tell.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
People about that. In case they don't know, Perry, tell
them about the hinting tape.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
Well, Ted was Ted carried around a movie camera, you know,
they had given him in case, you know, when it happened,
he could videotape at all.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Ted Hinton was part of the group that ambushed Bonnie
and Clyde. So the tape he's talking about is a
little early their death.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
Go ahead, Perry and uh and and during the movie breaks,
they would show this video for crime that and pay.
They had several ones they would show, but they would
show this one and show them and the car and
stuff in the end, and it hurt the family is
really bad, you know. But a lot of people don't
realize when Bonny was killed. Not just their mother was
(28:25):
still alive, but her grandmother was still alive. And uh,
you know this, this was a very hard thing on
these families after it happened.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Uh, it was.
Speaker 4 (28:35):
It was a rough two years while they were on
the run, but it was even harder on them after
they were killed. You know, people were always wanting a
story or or well, you know, Beside's older brother went
to prison, uh for a murderer that he probably didn't do,
but he went because the name was Barrow.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
People blamed them for bank robberies they didn't do because
they were in states that they were never even in.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
Oh, they got blamed for a lot of stuff they
didn't do, and they probably got away with a few
things they didn't do.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Now that's valid.
Speaker 4 (29:10):
They were not these two praise killers, you know they
if they were, they would have never lasted two years.
You know, John Dillinger didn't run, but not even a
whole year.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (29:23):
And Clyde was on the run for a whole year
before John ever got out of prison. And a lot
of people were helping them out. They felt sorry for him,
They helped them. BLD didn't rob everybody you come across
these they didn't kill everybody come across. And their story
is just it's a very unique story.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Now, ray Lean, I have to get you to tell
one story. Will you please tell the green stamp store story.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
You can visualize these two little, uh, two little old
gray haired women about five foot one apiece and this
was back during the green stamp phase, and they had
their green stamps saved up and their books and all,
and there was a store that they went to that
(30:19):
they could choose different items in exchange for their green stamps.
And they were standing and Jeane told me this that
they were standing in line and said it was a
long line, and this lady in front of them kept
getting them to hold my place, and Jean said, changing
(30:43):
her mind, and she'd turn around to them save my place,
and then take off to get whatever it was she wanted.
And Jean said they finally got up to the counter
and said, this woman plopped her purse up on the
counter and it was just Jean said, we was just
a big old person and it just flopped wide open
(31:03):
when she put it up there, and said, anyway, then
the woman turns around one more time and says, uh,
save my place one more time. Uh saved my place again,
and Jean said that. Uh they said, you know, of course, okay,
and then uh Jean one, Jeane and Blanche they looked
at each other and one of them said, boy, if
(31:24):
she only knew who we were, you know. And I've
just that's always been hilarious to me because these two
little old, tiny, gray haired women were notorious, you know,
back and this woman didn't know that she had, uh
the these uh Parker and Barrow uh women watching her
(31:47):
purse of all things, you know. So that's always I
just just know when Blanche and Jean and their their
dry wit, uh, you never knew what was going to
come out of her mouth. And and like that's what
I was saying. To give them a couple of beers.
And I'm not sure all that stuff happened that they
(32:08):
would get to laughing about, but anyway, it made for
good stories for them.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Absolutely. I'm sorry, go ahead back, No.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
I was just going to say, just the the picture
in my mind of the two of those little old women,
you know, being notorious.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
You know, hey, Blade held her own. I mean, Blade
was pretty notorious. She even got shot.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Come on out, I'll tell you. But you know, I didn't.
I didn't know all that, you know, all that stuff.
It just wasn't discussed. So when when they would get
to talking about it, sometime I would just listen in
all you here again, you know in my picture of
(32:59):
their my my is these two little, old, tiny, gray
haired women. Uh there. It was hard to visualize them
out doing some of the shenanigans that that they they did.
Uh there but uh but they you know, they both
lived a quiet, productive life after they survived their shenanigans.
(33:22):
Uh so to speak, they they they they didn't do
that stuff anymore.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Work right now, Perry, me and you and Buddy and
ray Lene got to get together last March. Tell everybody
what you brought so that I could hold it.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
Oh, I brought a pistol that was I'd purchased from
the grandson of the man that owned the mirror glass
and mirror company that Clyde work for. The gun was
I don't know where the gun came from, but Bonnie
(34:00):
had it and she gave it to her mother. They
were people when somebody was stealing their chickens or something,
and the gun was given to her mother, And of
course her mother woul't want the gun she gave it
to Gene, and Gene ended up somehow giving it back
to this this man. And I just just stayed with
his family until he called me one day.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
He had the He wanted to give me the sign.
He had the original sign.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
From where Clyde would work out with his grandfather and
actually when they eventually went on the run, he would
hide Clyde out, you know, clide and BINDI give him
a place to stay for a little while.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
And I mean when I say a little while, I
mean a.
Speaker 4 (34:39):
Few hours, you know, not for weeks at a time
or nothing. But he said, you know, if when Clyde
got out of prison, if they would have just left
him alone, he would have been okay, he said, but
they would show up at his job and harass him,
harass his grandfather for hiring him. And a lot of
times it wasn't because Clyde committed to crime, but he
(35:00):
knew who did, and you know, and it just was
the real story about him, sad and tragic. But I
did get the gun, and yeah, it's here at the
museum now on display, and Bonnie was starting to carve
her name in it. So she's got like a half
a pee or a half to be I have to
be on it. She didn't get it all done. I
(35:22):
have a pistol that came out of the death car.
I have a shotgun that was recovered from Dexter, Iowa.
I have several other shotguns that were I bought it
auctions or I've got one from I got from my buddy.
Because he still has a few items that are probably
going to go up for auction one day, I don't
(35:43):
think I could.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Give him the money that he well deserves for this stuff.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
I'll be it on him, but I'm sure that somebody
allowed bidding me for these things that he still has.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
And ray Lanland we met in Texas last March. You
showed up. You looked like lightning in a bottle. I mean,
you were put together, so fabulous, and you walked in
and my brother in law looked to be in here
went there ain't no way. She's the age, you said.
(36:15):
I said, I'm telling you, she's unbelievable, remarkable, And you said, y'all,
I'm sorry, I'm a little late. Do you remember what
you said?
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Probably the resurrection resurrection takes longer and longer, because that,
trust me, that is true. There as I told you
the other night. You know, do I need to make
to do makeup for this event today?
Speaker 4 (36:46):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (36:46):
There, because I don't answer my door without makeup on Uh.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
I've never seen you where you were not stunning. But
you know, when we were all having lunch, we talked
about something that you have worked for for ninety years.
What have you been trying to make happen?
Speaker 2 (37:06):
We've been, oh, for several years now, trying to get
Bonnie back with Clyde. Uh there that this was her
her her wish and his wish and uh and she
made it, you know, very plain to my grandmother and
you know, and uh everyone that and it only stands
(37:29):
to reason that they should be together. Uh. They they
died together, they lived together, they died together, and they
should be rested the rest of their you know, being together.
And uh So it's been quite a frustrating, stressful thing,
(37:49):
but we're still hanging in there. The uh we we
the for where Bonnie is buried. Uh. He does not
want her moved. He he uh he uses her for
advertising uh there, which you know rightfully, so I guess.
And but he he has fought us, ever, fought me
(38:11):
every step, and he has brought up some of the
most ridiculous, outlandish reasons why she should not be moved.
And the thing is she's already been moved once. Uh
there and from the uh fish trap cemetery where the
(38:31):
my grandmother and them uh at that my great grandmother
and I were buried. That was their family plot. And
uh Bonnie was buried on top of Billy Jean's two babies. Uh.
They died four days apart, two years before Bonnie was killed.
(38:51):
So uh anyway, and so Billy Jean bought these four
places at Crown Hill, and when my grandmother died, Jean
had had my grandmother buried there, and then she had
Bonnie and the babies moved to the Crown Hill place.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
Well.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Uh, and then my dad when he passed away, he's
buried at my grandmother's feet and they Anyway, this guy
that owns the cemetery just does not want to move,
and he's fought us. We've now won twice in court
and we're now then he appealed to the appellate court,
so we're waiting to hear that on that. But even
(39:32):
the judge asked him, said why are you doing this?
And his statement was kind of well, I don't think
she's got enough reason, good enough reason to move her
was his you know, and nobody, nobody can figure out
what the attorneys. We have some really good attorneys working
(39:53):
with us dollar and nobody can figure out what is
his deal?
Speaker 4 (39:56):
You know.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
The attorneys now, uh say there said they're mad at
you for keeping it going. You know, so he's he's
trying to break me so to speak, you know, uh,
by keeping the attorneys, you know, keeping them working, so
(40:19):
to speak. So anyway, we're we're still hoping. And I
believe with everything that I have that that this needs
to be done. And if Buddy and I don't get
it done, then you know, it won't happen. And uh,
you know, I just feel so strongly it was her desire.
It makes sense and why not, you know?
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Amen?
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Right on. They actually had an event yesterday that I
didn't go to at the cemetery at the Western Nights Cemetery.
Again we have attended that before, people that have have
people that are buried. There's kind of an all day
you know, through and some historians are there, you know,
(41:04):
a very interesting event and there and there are redoing
refurbishing the cemetery. The Western Heights cemetery, and so I'm
involved with all of those people anyway. So it's not
a railing only desire, you know, it's something that people
(41:24):
other people feel strong about.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
To Yeah, one of them. I think they deserved to
be together.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Yeah exactly, you know, just common sense there and all.
And I want to have a plaque made of haven't
decided Bonnie and Clyde together again, you know, put it
their graves because uh. And the thing is, this grave
(41:52):
site has been saved for Bonnie. Mister Barrow offered it
to my grandmother. And I can understand my grandmother's feeling
is completely at that time. He had her in life,
he can't have her in death. I can feel that.
But I can assure you my grandmother was not thinking
ninety years from then. What you know, the the the
(42:14):
interest uh and from the from the gory side plus
the the uh you know, the history side of it
of them. Still the interest that is still in you know,
shown to them and all. And uh so I I
uh if we do have another cemetery, Grove Hill that
(42:38):
that has a lot of the Barrows are buried at
Grove Hill, and he is uh is diligently working with
us through through all of this. Also we have his backing.
Uh uh there for forget you know, forgetting this to happen.
It'll happen, but it's just, uh it seems to be
(42:59):
after the battle, you know. And uh as long as
I uh have the you know, uh, I have the
the total desire to to get her moved and then
and then then I'm done with Bonnie and Clyde.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Well, I remember years and years ago you and I
talked about this for the first time, and I'm like,
what is his issue? What is his problem? And I
asked you, I said, is he just waiting for you
to die? Thinking this will just go away? And you said, well,
I might not be that healthy, but I'm that stubborn.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
And that's that's very true.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
And how we are to that?
Speaker 2 (43:47):
Right? I said, I'm not a fighter, but I am
hard headed, you know. So uh, that's right, you know.
And the fact of all the people that I have met,
you know, just including you and Perry and Walt and
Huck and Caroline and you know, and many many other
(44:09):
people that I have had the pleasure of meeting through
all of this, So it's worth the fight, you know,
just to maintain my friendship with everyone.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Well, we love you and we are here for you,
and we absolutely believe Bonnie needs to be moved. But
aside from Bonnie and Clyde, you are a wonderful person,
a spectacular human being, and we are all lucky to
know you.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
And that's the great part of it, you know, that
to me because actually, you know, my kids and I
and my granddaughter and then my three great grandkids. You know,
that's that's my family, you know. Now until I got
in and met you know, had the pleasure of meeting
(44:59):
all of y'all and so many other people too that
uh uh you know that, Uh it's very important. And
uh my daughter, Lacey, my son, whatever Lacey and I
tell him to do, that's what he does, you know,
bless his heart. But Lacey's in it, you know with me,
(45:23):
and uh there and just uh uh you know, just
really thankful for you know, for for her and her
her knowledge and her willingness to you know, to see
see through all of this, see is through all of
this and.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
All she did a wonderful job on that book, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (45:46):
Didn't she though, uh you know. And the thing was,
I teased Buddy over and over about he gave her
a two hundred and ninety four page sentence, you know,
and trust me, that's that's actually true. And bless her heart,
it was uh you know, and she had not done
(46:10):
that sort of formatting and her imagination, you know, and
and setting it up like she did. It wasn't just
a page by page all all story.
Speaker 3 (46:22):
When you read it, it's like Buddy's talking to you.
Speaker 4 (46:25):
I mean she I don't know how she did it,
but she did it where when you read it, it's
just like Buddy's telling you the story himself.
Speaker 3 (46:34):
And she just did an awesome job at it.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
She did amazing so much you know, work and and
and buddies knowledge and memories and you know, there was
a lot of work, a lot of work put into
into it.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
We're going to have several other authors here this year.
Speaker 4 (46:56):
Of course, we're going to be selling your book, and
havn't y'all sign your book, but we've got a new
book on Henderson Jorden coming out at the author will
be your signing this book.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
We have Brad that's Brad Dyson. I believe it. I've
talked to him. Yeah, I've talked to Brad before very much. Yeah, yeah,
very much, so uh there, so yeah, we're looking forward
to it. Uh there, Linda, Lenda and I you know,
will be there, my uh my, my my niece, my
(47:29):
great travel buddy, uh uh there. So yeah, we've already
got reservations and we'll we'll uh we'll be there.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
Well, y'all, I cannot tell you how much I have
enjoyed this conversation and we are just going to have
to do it again because there's a whole lot we
ain't got to. And if you have a chance this
summer while you're traveling to get by the Bonny and
Clyde Ambush Museum, I am telling you if you think
you know, oh, you need to swing by there, because
(48:02):
there's so much you don't know.
Speaker 4 (48:04):
I promise you you got a great little restaurant and
a great little cook.
Speaker 2 (48:08):
And I was going to bring up the h the
restaurant and Stacey there well well worthy the jump off
of I twenty.
Speaker 4 (48:24):
If you're not watching your waistline and you don't care
about it, come on in here and then.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
Go get you some fried baloney. Harry Carver, thank you
so much. I just adore you and I appreciate it.
And Rayleigh Linder I mean, I just cannot tell you
how much I love and adore you, and I appreciate
you and thank you so much for sharing literally American
history with us.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
Well, it's it's my pleasure. I feel very inadequate with
the knowledge that like Perry has and Buddy has and all,
but I still toss my two cents in there. So
it's it's my pleasure. That's my phone, that's my fun
(49:14):
My ring tone is honky tonk. Can't you say this
little old ninety year old woman walking through Walmart with
her phone playing honky Tonk?
Speaker 1 (49:25):
I can absolutely well.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
I have a few dance steps that I can toss
in there.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
Too, Yes, ma'am, no doubt.
Speaker 2 (49:35):
But it's my pleasure. And you know, I just I
appreciate being accepted, you know, by by everyone, and it's it's, uh,
it's really been interesting anyway. I appreciate ben, you know,
accepted and and all. It's my pleasure and Lacey's pleasure.
(50:00):
She's grabbing the phones here trying to cut them off,
you know, Eryl.
Speaker 3 (50:06):
And greatly. And I'll see you in a couple of weeks.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
Er. That's right.
Speaker 1 (50:11):
I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I
always do with a quote. Someday they'll go down together,
and they'll bury them side by side. To a few
will be grief, to the law of relief. But it's
death for Bonnie and Clyde, A poem by Bonnie Parker.
I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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