December 22, 2025 • 49 mins
At 4:22 p.m. on what should have been an ordinary December afternoon, gunfire erupted inside the engineering building at Brown University. Students preparing for final exams found themselves barricaded in classrooms as text alerts warned, “Hide. Stay where you are. Silence your phone.” This week on Zone 7, Sheryl McCollum and retired FBI Special Agent Scott Duffey revisit the Brown University shooting, where a day of finals spiraled into chaos and tragedy. Together, they discuss the confusion inside the building, the calm suspect caught on camera, and the observant witness whose attention to detail helped identify him. Sheryl and Scott examine what went right, what went wrong, and how information, instinct, and timing shaped the investigation.
Highlights:
• (0:00) Welcome to Zone 7 with Sheryl McCollum and returning guest Scott Duffey to discuss the Brown University shooting and the law-enforcement response that followed
• (5:45) The moment violence reached Brown University: students taking finals as shots rang out
• (12:30) “Nobody was prepared to take this person on”: why Brown University was a soft target
• (15:30) Behavioral clues and why the suspect didn’t fit the usual active-shooter profile
• (18:30) How video surveillance, community vigilance, and digital evidence guided the search
• (21:15) Law enforcement press conferences and why clear, real-time communication with the public is critical
• (25:00) The second engineer’s murder: coincidence or connection?
• (28:30) Theorizing motive and method• (31:00) The suspect’s calm demeanor and cultural clues that caught investigators’ attention
• (34:45) Terrorism concerns, global context, and seasonal timing during the holidays
• (39:00) Update: the shooter found deceased; press conference missteps and misinformation
• (43:15) The breakthrough witness whose attention to detail broke open the case
• (48:30) Closing thoughts on the investigation, the likelihood of a manifesto, and why violent offenders rarely act in silence
Guest Bio:
Scott Duffey is a retired FBI Supervisory Special Agent with more than two decades of service in the Bureau’s Baltimore Division, including assignments with the Wilmington Resident Agency and the Delaware Violent Crimes Task Force. He now directs the Criminal Justice Institute at Wilmington University, where he teaches interview and interrogation techniques to law enforcement professionals. Duffey also provides on-air crime analysis for FOX, CNN, NewsNation, and the Wildlife CSI Academy, continuing to educate, inform, and engage audiences worldwide.
Enjoying Zone 7? Leave a rating and review where you listen to podcasts. Your feedback helps others find the show and supports the mission to educate, engage, and inspire.
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an active crime scene investigator for a Metro Atlanta Police Department and the director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, which partners with colleges and universities nationwide. With more than 4 decades of experience, she has worked on thousands of cold cases using her investigative system, The Last 24/361, which integrates evidence, media, and advanced forensic testing. Her work on high-profile cases, including The Boston Strangler, Natalie Holloway, Tupac Shakur and the Moore’s Ford Bridge lynching, led to her Emmy Award for CSI: Atlanta and induction into the National Law Enforcement Hall of Fame in 2023.
Social Links:
• Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
• Twitter: @ColdCaseTips
• Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
• Instagram: @officialzone7podcast
Preorder Sheryl’s upcoming book, Swans Don’t Swim in a Sewer: Lessons in Life, Justice, and Joy from a Forensic Scientist, releasing May 2026 from Simon and Schuster.
https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Swans-Dont-Swim-in-a-Sewer/Sheryl-Mac-McCollum/9798895652824
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Y'all, tonight is an important conversation that needs to happen.
I used to teach college. Our guest tonight still teaches college.
In that level. It's a different place, it's a different
time in your life as a parent dropping somebody off.
(00:30):
I mean, you just think, man, the next four years
are going to shape them. They're going to have the
time of their life. They're going to have so many experiences.
You're just thrilled for them. And tonight, Scott Duffy is
going to help me talk about what happened in Providence.
So Scott Duffy, y'all remember he's been here before. He's
(00:51):
a good friend. Senior director of Training at Wilmington University
in Delaware, retired at the Supervisory Special Agent, and y'all,
he's also been a technical advisor for HBO Max. He's
also one of the experts for the Wildlife CSI Academy
(01:13):
and a favorite, I might add. So Scott Duffy, welcome
back to Zone seven.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Chareyl. Good evening, and thank you so much. What a
wonderful introduction.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Always humbled all true, and that's all true. Don't have
to pad anything for you, but you know, the last
time you and I had dinner. You were talking so
lovely about your students. You are so excited for them.
You bring world renowned people to Wilmington, You expose them
(01:51):
to experts in all kind of genres and levels and disciplines,
and just that joy on your talking about what they're doing,
the things they're accomplishing. That to me is what from
a teacher perspective, a professor perspective, that's the whole, that's
(02:13):
the gig. It's almost like your child. You put what
you got in them, and then when you see them
just go You are so proud, just like a parent.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Wow. Yeah, you are a good reader of faces and
body language. I love. I loved my job as a
police officer and a bi agent. I love what I'm
doing now at Wilmington University and of course at Montgomery
County Police Academy in Pennsylvania, where I get to teach
(02:47):
new recruits. So being at the beginning of their stages
of life, their careers, whether it be in the college
section where not all criminal justice students who are taking
my classes, or in the criminal justice field, they could
(03:08):
be psychology. It a whole fast of backgrounds, but I'd
love being with them. I love listening to them their
perspectives at such a young age, and I do my
classic let me ask you a questions as all these
(03:29):
young people, you know, having Instagram, TikTok and whatnot, and
a lot a lot of their information coming through, so
I'd like to see where they're at with regards to
their love of the criminal justice system. They're they're just
whatever you want to call it, their angsts, right, they're
(03:52):
I'm not so sure we're going down the right path
all those things. And and then I'd like to take say,
bear with me, however many weeks were together and see
if I always like to give them that positive side
of law enforcement because sow so so many just just
(04:12):
dedicate their lives to just doing the good.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Yes, it is amazing. And you know, my daughter Caroline
was at that same dinner and she asked you, what
is your favorite class to teach? And you leaned back
and you went, ooh, that's a good question. And what
was so fantastic to me was there's more than one.
(04:38):
Like you're excited about a lot of things you can
teach these young people. And at the end of that dinner,
Caroline leaned up for to me she went, I want
to take that class, and I went, me too. I mean,
you're just so you just fire people up, and I
just appreciate that about you. And you know, I know
there's some lucky, lucky folks in Della where.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Yeah. And you know, also the nice thing about Wilmington
University is we do so much in the online field
and when I'm talking to students who I can just
see on a camera and it's amazing where they're zooming
in from, whether it be I've had military overseas saying hey,
(05:22):
I'm in attend I'm taking a class, or you know,
taking a break from whatever it is they're doing, or
across the world where different students come and just to
be a part of the class from this, that and
of itself is a pretty cool experience. And then every
student gets to, I hope, learn from just the different backgrounds,
(05:46):
cultures and perspectives.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
And I think this love of teaching and just the
love of our students makes what happened in Providence all
the more gut n because here you have young people
expand in their mind, broadening their world, and they're just
gunned down. I mean in the engineering building getting ready
(06:14):
for a final, taking a final, studying for a final,
and you got two people killed, nine people injured, and
they can't find it.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Zone in on what you had just said, people taking
a final. So just walking any hall of any school,
but especially in a college atmosphere where you have everything
going on. In a college. You can go to any
(06:49):
college building, whether it be an engineering, sciences, you know, whatever,
criminal justice, and students are doing everything studying, group study,
self study, they're socializing. It is everything that happens on
the street is taking place in what is supposed to
(07:12):
be a place to let your guard down, where you
have no worry of the outside world, or shouldn't have
a worry of the outside world. You are, at least
you believe to be confined in a secure space. And
(07:34):
now at the end, I watched the students, you know,
at the beginning, all the nerves, and then as everybody
gets to know each other, as the semester goes on,
everybody is engaged and genuinely relaxing those nerves and stresses.
And then of course essays, tests, whatever have you. They
(07:57):
are designed to build a little bit of that stress.
And then of course exams, the final exams what hopefully
get that grade that you need, you want, that you
work for, saying goodbye to friends, perhaps lovers that you've
you've encountered in that short period of time in college
(08:22):
before everybody goes off on a holiday, whether it be
a you practice of faith or not. Right you are,
everybody is leaving, and you're kind of like flushing out
everything you've learned with that final exam, like now you're
going to move on. You're can enjoy family, friends. There
(08:43):
should be no worry, especially as we have seen unfortunately
time and time again of these unspeakable acts of violence.
Whatever be the motive, but that somebody brings crashing down
(09:06):
to students who are simply in their most vulnerable place
in life. And then, of course not just the students there,
but just how it affects that campus itself. The whole
campus had to change and heartbeat, and then every campus
(09:29):
then has to constantly reevaluate, so students across any learning
platform is affected by this, and this just continues.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
To Man, it is so crazy because it was four
twenty two in the afternoon. I mean, I don't think
anybody in that building had anything on their mind except
what you said, I'm going to finish what I've got
to do right here, and I'm going home, and it's
(10:06):
going to be a fantastic holiday season, right, And you
know their parents, they've already bought tickets, they've already made plans,
they've already bought gifts. And you know the college. I mean,
they send out alert to hide, to stay where you are,
to take cover, to silence your phone. They're trying to
let people know there is an active shooter on campus,
(10:29):
which it's unimaginable to people. So I think when you
first get that notice, when you're not in the building,
you're not within earshot of hearing the gunfire, it's got
to almost be like, is this real? Especially at a
place like Providence, Rhode Island idyllic.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Right, Having grown up in New England, myself in Connecticut,
so just to stay below and now, of course i'm
a little biased with New England, just that every town
has a green and a gazebo, yes, and you know
(11:11):
something going on like a miracle on thirty fourth Street.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
It is. When my sister first moved to Connecticut and
I went to visit, everywhere I went looked like a
movie set. Everywhere. The bridge is, the waterways, the houses everything,
and you think, you know, a university of this stature
in a beautiful state, in a beautiful city. I mean,
(11:40):
it's just not that anywhere is okay, not that anywhere
is predictable, But you certainly don't say, oh, I bet
there's going to be a mass shooting in Providence Trhode
Island at the college.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Then it happens, right, every student's nightmare, it is. And
as we see time and time again, how the old
fashioned fire drills have turned into the active shooter drills
(12:14):
and have unfortunately, having looked into these and covered these
time and time again, it seems like it's not if.
But when that's the unfortunate reality we live in as
(12:34):
it spreads throughout.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Well, don't you think another reason is because you've got
a soft target. But that target can get even softer.
So again, you go into some campuses and maybe there's
a student there that's got a weapon that can stop you,
Maybe there's a student that's got some training that can
stop you. Certainly law enforcement that seem more than one
(13:00):
active shooter. But here it's almost like nobody was prepared
to take this person on.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Yeah, and this case seems to have all the air
marks as law enforcement has learned because Right Jerald law
enforcement learns from other law enforcement agencies that have gone
through things. And not every department has that luxury of
(13:31):
the resources, etc. In the training, especially your smaller departments throughout.
But we are in a place in life, as this
post Columbine world, that there are no more excuses for
not having at least the adequate resources where everybody at
(13:57):
some point is preparing not only law enforcement those but
those that we protect. Right that the universities, the college is,
the high schools, the junior highs, et cetera, that they
have some sort of security measure in place and know
what to do through these alert these alice trainings, run
(14:18):
hide fight trainings, and that situational awareness that is built
into now our brains. And so these students very smart.
You know, you're probably your best of your best that
have crammed, have stressed, have whatever it is to help
(14:41):
them get to that moment. And that is it. All attention.
All eyes are in a paper with a pencil or
pen or a computer, and you have zoned out everything
else as well as you should take a test, and
(15:02):
then anybody who's not there taking a test simply whether
you've left the exam or we're getting ready for an exam.
They know this is just a few more hours, a
few more days, and then we can get home and
uh and and then all that comes crashing the most
(15:24):
sacred space, that that protected space is violated by such
unspeakable violence. However, as we are seeing little little bit
of information that comes out still here or video there,
this individual spent some time unlike our typical active shooters
(15:48):
that they idealize that they they then fantasize about it,
right and and then and and nobody's where what's happening,
So you don't have that break in that cycle of
violence that's going on inside their head to where they
(16:11):
make a decision to execute it. And they come running
in and you know, as an active shooter, a massive
shoot or what they want to do the most harm
in the shortest period of time, that's what they thought about,
maybe having a face in mind of somebody or someone
that they think about and try to find. But once
(16:38):
they ultimately commit to doing such a horrifying act, planning
goes out the window. It is now just a mass attack,
and so they're not thinking of their escape and most
likely they haven't been hanging around thinking about they leave
(16:59):
wherever they leave, if they have their weapons of choice,
and then they go in. But this seems to be different.
And the more we are starting to see, even though
little bits of information are coming out, you have a
couple hours of an individual that they believed to be
(17:20):
that of the gunman who's there in the neighborhood casing
pacing that seems to go against what we believed to
be that of a pattern the shooter.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Tom Smith, former detective with NYPD. He and I were
texting each other when they first talked about the suspect
at the hotel, and he literally texted me, that doesn't
fit the pattern, and we both kind of said to
each other, Yeah, I'm not going to post about that.
(17:58):
I'm not going to put that information out there because
doesn't seem right. And you know, we do have video.
I run across this all the time in my job
as a crime scene investigator. Two things people will say,
I didn't think anything that I knew was going to
make a difference, or I was waiting for the police
(18:20):
to come and talk to me. Well, any little piece
of information, just a slither, could make all the difference
in the world, especially if we hear the same thing
over and over and over. And the second thing is,
we don't know to come interview you if we don't
know you exist, so please please reach out. So what
(18:43):
I tried to say is, look, we've got him on video,
which gives us a date in real time, a location,
and a direction of travel, which is so important. You
know which way he's going when he's leaving, so that
tells the next neighbor, and the next neighbor check your video,
(19:04):
and even if it's a tesla, go check your car.
We don't know where he might have cut through or
gone around or hidden for a minute, so check everything.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
If you have a camera, it only takes a few
minutes to go through your ring camera. You have an
idea of the time and then you know, especially with
technology these ring cameras or even your savanillance video and
businesses and so forth, they're so user friendly and they
(19:37):
are designed to tell you, hey, somebody's out there is
something that's queued up your camera, and don't waste your
time looking at all the other debt space or your
camera's not picking up on action. Look at what is there.
It takes a few minutes while law enforcement, as you
well know, right when you are getting hundreds or thousands
(20:00):
of hours that then they have to go through those tapes,
those recordings real time. Yes, we are looking right for
for that one shot that is going to catch him
or her without a mask, or to catch a logo
(20:21):
of a shoe or getting into a car, whether it
be their car or noob or some means of travel.
And that's it. And I believe people are finally looking
at these things and providing law enforcement with it. And
(20:42):
that's why we're starting to see it's not just a
few minutes around that four twenty before and the after.
Look at the casing and the.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Pacing, hands behind his back.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Hands behind his back.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Oh oh gosh, that's so cool ritical to me. And
I want you to jump in because you know you're
at the federal level. You've been involved in major cases,
you've done task force, you've done incredible things. Please, when
you're going to do a press conference, Number one, the
(21:20):
person has got to be trained to do a press conference.
It doesn't have to be the president or the chief
or the director. It doesn't It needs to be somebody
that can articulate the mission, what you're doing. And give
what they can give of the investigation. Because here's the
deal in a situation like this, when you are asked,
(21:43):
we have video of him leaving the building, do we
have video of him inside the building? And your response
is something to the effect, we don't have confirmation that
it's him inside the building. What How's that possible, Scott Duffy,
how is it possible? So either they didn't want to answer,
(22:04):
right because they don't want to say just like when
they were asked, well, they're saying, he yelled something before
he started shooting. Yeah, but we don't know what that was. Okay, really,
because you've got a whole lot of people that survived
that event, I think you do know what he said,
and if you would tell us, it may narrow down
the suspect.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Poll pieces of information like that are important. You don't
have to give the exact phrases. You don't have to
give You don't have to give every piece of information away.
I get it. You do want to keep law enforcement
does want to keep things close to the vest. However,
(22:46):
we're four days away from this and even though it
is still early in the investigation, and what I mean
by early is that typically we have seen active shooters
where they are in custody or deceased very quickly after
(23:07):
the incident, and so law enforcement has provided a name,
and then ultimately the people want to know what's the motive.
And sometimes that motive may never be realized because I've
always believed and said that motive lies alone in the
(23:28):
heart and mind of the one who is committing that
act of violence. And if that person is not in
custody because they are deceased, or they are in custody
but have refused an interview with law enforcement, then we
can only use the evidence that before uson gathered and
say we believe this is the motive, some sort of revenge,
(23:52):
some sort of hate, some sort of mental health component,
whatever it may be. I do believe if what is
said that witnesses can reasonably ascribe to law enforcement, there
(24:13):
should be something given to the public that can help
somebody who may know this individual and say, oh, okay,
that just struck a chord with me because that I
heard from a friend, from a colleague, from a family member,
and wow, they've been missing the pasta play something that
(24:38):
could generate a solid lead for law enforcement to follow
up on.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Wales said, yes, And at this point you have an
active killer somewhere. And like you and I were talking earlier, today,
there's been another murder of an engineer about an hour
away from Providence. So is it the same killer? Does
he have a list? Is it something about engineers? And
(25:10):
this is where intelligence is going to come into play
with a lot of our federal friends. I know the
majority of jihadist are engineers. Well, has somebody turned on
their own? People? Like? What is going on?
Speaker 2 (25:28):
This?
Speaker 1 (25:28):
To me? Law enforcement cannot do this alone. They can't.
Every single set of eyes and ears needs to be
out there. And I'll give you an example we saw today.
Now this happened days ago, but we saw just today,
you know, FBI and other law enforcement shoulder to shoulder
(25:49):
searching yards for something he might have discarded. Okay, that
should have been done day one. People, when you go
outside to check your mail, or walk your dog, or
get your over and off the bus, look around. Is
there a water bottle? Is there a cigarette butt? Is
there anything in his path of travel that was not
(26:10):
there yesterday? That should have been done. That's what should
have been said at the press conference. Did you see anybody?
Did you not see anybody but hear your dog bark?
Do we know where he went after the last visual
we have? What got them to that Hampton end twenty
miles away? Why did that happen? How did that happen?
(26:34):
How do you find this person? And they have guns,
but they're not the right person. But you can't find
this person. You need the public's help.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Absolutely, you need the public's help. And this is where
you provide enough information that gets the public thinking, hey,
thank you very much. That is a question for someone
out there that has an answer or and a call
can be made as opposed to as you said earlier,
if someone doesn't is not aware of what kind of
(27:10):
cameras or what how many cameras? That first and foremost,
you haven't gone to many crime scenes, you know, day one,
early in that investigation, that crime scene is now secure.
Somebody designated detective, somebody in that pool of investigators has said,
(27:33):
hey boss, we got six cameras. Are you sure it's
not seven? It's not eight? Nope, it got six and
already on it pulling all the footage. Right. That's that's
within hours. Or hey boss, guess what, there are no
cameras in this side of the building that sucks. Okay,
(27:54):
well all right, well let's let's now see where we
have cameras and start pulling the footage that is one
on one getting you the eyes and ears on something
that can tell no lies. There's no trauma involved with
a camera. The camera is simply stating the facts and
(28:17):
ready to be downloaded to help an investigator say, Ahi, okay,
here's something that we now know that we didn't know before.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
So I mean, it's not just Christmas break for the students.
The teachers are gone, a lot of the maintenance is
going to be gone, the coaches are going to be gone,
and so you know, law enforcement, they've probably scaled back
a lot too. A lot of them are probably going
to be able to take vacation. So you know that
campus is going to be somewhat deserted. Not everybody's leaving.
(28:52):
There'll be some international students that stay behind, but I'm
saying for the most part, everybody's going to have somewhere
to be. They're going to go home with somebody else,
or you know, they're going home themselves. So I just
think probably this person was super aware that things were relaxed.
Everybody wasn't there. Maybe even law enforcement didn't have the
(29:12):
same amount of people even patrolling. Do you think that's possible.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
I think that's very possible. And as you know, every
theory should be in red. In a war room where
all the investigators are sitting at a round table, square
whatever and theorizing. What let's start. Let's start with the
(29:41):
the each Let's go around the room. Everybody give us
a thought. Where is this a domestic gone bad? Is
this a love triangle? Is this a student that was
kicked out? Is this a veiled threat that turned into
a reaction? What every imaginable Is this a random act?
(30:04):
Is this somebody who has no connection to the area
jumped off ninety five and said, I think I'm going
to go find the first whatever? Right, every imaginable theory, motive,
thought is put in red. And then you say, where
(30:24):
does the evidence take us? Is it taking us closer
to one or further away? So? I absolutely, And of course,
like anything, you start with your inner circle. And in
the classroom setting, what's that inner circle? The connection to
the students. I heard a colleagues say the victimology, absolutely,
(30:51):
and the question the further we get away four or
five days as we are getting away. The evidence is
grown cold, evidence is being lost.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
When I saw the video, I thought, well, this person
clearly doesn't have an AR fifteen, so it looks like
a handgun. So he wanted to be closer, he wanted
to be more deliberate. Interesting. And then when he's pacing
in front of that one house with the fence, he
turns and he puts his arms behind his back and
(31:27):
he's looking around and he's walking. He looks like a
middle aged man, possibly from the Middle East. Am I crazy?
Or does that how he looks to you?
Speaker 2 (31:37):
So, having traveled a little bit in my previous job,
when he put his hands immediately behind his back, my
first thought was, and as an investigator, if I was
in that room, I would be saying, as soon as
I saw that video, that's an international why because I've
(31:58):
experienced where I have been with plenty of my law
enforcement friends in the Middle East, where I even joked,
you guys all walk around with your hands behind your back,
and it's so we and and that's what our jobs are.
(32:19):
Right to make assessments, judgments and allow the evidence to
say otherwise. But I would absolutely agree with you. I
felt at that moment when the very first video we
saw of the man turning a corner, I'm like, ah, okay,
he's not running. He doesn't seem as we have seen
(32:43):
active shooters where they actually commit the act and they
are so thrown off because they've realized this, what have
I done? And that's why they don't have an exit
plan that it is I'm going to meet law enforcement
and going to meet face to face, and it's going
to be my demise. The reality has set in and
(33:08):
here it seems like, especially as more video, he's casing
and pacing well in advance where he seems to really
be methodical, which tells me not random, but very targeted.
And then of the video with him putting his hands
(33:29):
behind his back, that seemed very natural. It was a
very natural thing for him to do. And he wanted
to look in place, not out of place. But to me,
I thought, boy, he definitely looked out of place and
not from here, do I That was my first thought.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Okay, mine too, And that's the kind of thing to me. Again,
any information they have regarding that, they should put it
out because he's got to get gasoline somewhere, he's got
to eat somewhere, he's got to sleep somewhere where if
we don't know who we're looking for. And I think
that's what's critical for me. Stop trying to protect or
(34:11):
you know, make sure you only say something that you
one hundred percent know, you already know, you already know
what your victims have said that have survived it. Tell
it because you need people's help to find him. You
don't know where he is. And again now we've had
another engineer murdered because he opened his front door. That
(34:32):
seems targeted. That seems way too close, that seems way
too you know, I don't like it. I don't like it.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Yeah, and especially in light of everything else that is
seems to be taking place around the world. Australia, we
are in the holiest of holy seasons, are we not?
We are no matter what faith you have, it is
the holiest of seasons. And so I remember a year
(35:05):
after year, you know, receiving some sort of intelligence bulletin
that says, beyond the lookout, this is a time where
law enforcement needs to be vigilant and looking out for
you know, maybe a piece of intelligence came out. Sure,
and it seems like, especially between last New Year's Eve
(35:29):
where you had too. Well, you had the New Orleans
and then Las Vegas, right, they seem to be connected,
but they were two different types of terror plots. And
and yet the season it's it's it's the season, and
so law enforcement is vigilant thing. And we just saw
(35:50):
the New Year's Eve plot in Los Angeles foiled. There
is something going on, and I do believe if it's
not connected, there are people coming out that are targeting
this season specifically.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
And here's the reality. Even if it's not connected, we
know one suicide causes another causes another. One school shooting
causes another causes another. We know that you can call
it copycat, you can call it whatever you want, but
we do know that occurs. It's almost like, hey, he
(36:28):
did it, the time is right, I'm going to do it.
So to me, that is a.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Connectivity where the individuals may not be following orders from
one specific group or person, but they know enough where hey,
we're coming out in this time to wreak havoc because
this is a happy time of preparation time for so
(36:54):
many people, and ultimately we want to disrupt that.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
And you know, you mentioned how Los Angeles just thwarted
a terrorist attack that was outstanding police work. That's an
example of when more than one agency works together, what
can get done and lives can be saved. I mean,
they had drone footage of them practicing blowing things up.
(37:20):
And you know one thing they mentioned is these folks talked,
they share things, they thought they were on encrypted apps
and that sort of thing. But our intelligence community got
a hold of it. Put their picture on a wall,
like you said, get in that war room, put their
picture up, put their address up. What are they saying?
(37:40):
What is their target date? Well, here we are and
if it is the Holy season, it's pretty clear. It's
pretty clear. Australia, Los Angeles, Rhode Island.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Yes, And we know from research that these type of
incidents incidents of hate, regardless of what your target of
hate is. That people don't think in a vacuum. They
are talking about it, they are chatting about it, they
(38:13):
are doing something overtly about it, and somebody knows something,
they've overheard something, or they can't imagine, Oh my gosh,
I would have never imagined the person would have actually
carried something out right. We all say stupid stuff, We
(38:34):
all think out loud, sometimes to our friends or inner circles,
but no different in these type of situations, even if
they're lone wolves or they're lone actors or withdrawn from society,
they are putting that information out somewhere on a platform somewhere,
and I would be hard pressed to believe that Providence,
(38:58):
Rhode Island is anything to.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Scott Duffy and I recorded this episode a couple of
days ago. Last night there was a conclusion to the
case where the shooter was found deceased. So we're going
to now just do a little tag at the end
and now we're just going to give a quick summation
about the things that it transpired overnight. Well, Scott Duffy,
we were pretty close.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
I tell you, Cheryl, what a night, right. I mean,
so much has taken place. How many states are involved
in this investigation, and I would agree, I think we
were as close as could be without being in that
war room of detectives.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
That's right. And let me tell you, I'm a little frustrated,
and I don't know about you, but I think when
they refuse to give a description, they refused to show
the cameras on the inside, they refused to give a
name afterwards, and then they say things like he took
counter measures to not be discovered. Change in a license
(40:04):
plate is nineteen twenty, Like, what are you talking about
as a countermeasure?
Speaker 2 (40:09):
You know? And we both agree, as I can see
many colleagues across speaking about this. With regards to press conferences,
what is going on between the leadership and the investigators.
There's some disconnect. I don't think. I don't think that
(40:30):
that could be understated or overstated. The detectives. I believe
that they were doing their work and hunting down which
ultimately came down to the shooter who took his own life.
But the press conference is the information coming out. I
(40:53):
think they got to go back and say, okay, own
up to Hey, what are the missteps? What are things
that we could do better? And we'll do.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Better best practices that's always what you should take away.
And here's the thing. Look at the number of people
that they targeted. Everybody was sharing photographs and I want
to just kind of put this out there for people.
If it does not come from law enforcement in a
(41:23):
situation like this, I wouldn't share it. There were a
lot of students whose pictures were put up as a
person of interest and that's real dangerous and you can
truly hurt people because to me, when I saw the video,
it looked like a middle aged person. It looked like
(41:44):
a middle aged, overweight man, and again with his hands
behind his back, looked like a particular culture. But when
you refuse to tell people that's what you're breeding, you're
breeding fear, and they're gonna be like, he looks like
this guy. No, he looks like that guy. No, Now,
we won't y'all to help us find this guy. Come
(42:05):
on now.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
The public is always ready to fill in that vacuum, right,
and so they have their own ideas, and when the
leadership allows those ideas to fester, you can't then just
come back at the end and say, hey, stop doing
it now. It's always going to happen as part of
our culture. And yes, we all take a lesson from this,
(42:29):
but I would agree a lot of people putting out
names of individuals, names that you just can't pull that back,
and they walk around with a target on their back
saying what did I do? While at the same time,
you have information that could be put out a little
(42:50):
bit earlier in order to continue to direct the information
to where people who are listening, and people are listening everywhere.
Can say I think I have something to offer and
send it to a tip line or something else that ultimately,
you know, we all step back and we realized their
(43:13):
lessons learned.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Well, let's talk about the Christmas miracle. You and I
talked about the general public. You can't have enough eyes
and ears. We said it, we were clear about it.
And along comes our witness. Along comes the person that
helped crack the case, or did crack the case as
far as I'm concerned, because he had a person, and
(43:35):
he had a vehicle, and he knew that person engaged
that vehicle with their keyfob. This is a homeless person
named John who's living in the basement of the building
where the attacks occurred, who saw the killer earlier in
the day, followed him, watched him unlock a car and
(43:58):
then lock it back and walk away from it, almost
like he thought, m I shouldn't let him see me
go to this car. He knew the car, remembered the car,
and then he went to Reddit and told them, y'all,
I'm dead serious. This is what happened. I engaged this person,
saw this person. I've got the car. This is what
(44:20):
law enforcement needs to be looking for. Day Z wrote
in on the car they went to the flock cameras.
And for y'all that don't know what a flock camera is,
law enforcement can put in a tag number or a
vehicle description, and those cameras will tell every time that
car hit a camera, and you can follow somebody from
(44:41):
Florida to Nebraska. And that's what they did, and that's
how they got to New Hampshire.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
That is a miracle. Who knows what this person was
up to. Next, the investigation hopefully will figure out that, Okay,
this is what we believe took place through whatever his writings,
if they exist, did he have a kill list? Were
(45:09):
their additional people? I would like to see if the
investigation can close this door on what took him to
Brown University other than his past twenty some odd years ago,
What festered, what took place, what was that trigger that
brought him in? And unlike active shooters we have seen
(45:33):
in the past, this person was casing not just hours before,
but at the very least a week before, right encountered
by additional people on that campus, around that campus. But absolutely, Cheryl,
thank God for this individual, this guy named John John
(45:54):
ought to receive not only that reward, but everything in
addition to.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
One hundred percent. There needs to be a GoFundMe for
him right now. And here's the thing. If you look
at this crime and then you look at the second crime,
and we talked about this off air, but I want
to talk about it on air right now. Here's what
came to my head immediately. DC sniper was the shooting
(46:22):
at Brown A smoke screen, a red heron a I'm
going to make them focus on this, so they missed
the professor. I think this person thought, they'll never connect it.
It's in another state, it's another person. This was at
a school, this is at a home. They'll never see
(46:43):
it as the same perpetrator. That's what I think he believed.
I think the target was the professor.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
Yeah, very possible. Right. Think about the amount of time
and effort he goes in case Brown University. Think about
everything that he had put all his efforts in, and
at the very least you think that this witness John
(47:13):
being courageous enough to actually have a conversation to try
to get more out of him, that that would have
sent this shooter far from the campus, saying whatever it
is I was planning on doing I'm now going to
go do somewhere else. No, he stuck it out. He
(47:35):
committed these acts of violence hours after that. So it
is very possible that his whole intent because he knew
where this professor lived, knew probably did his research, and
then goes and does what he does. That those are
(47:56):
two different mindsets. An actual shooter and in a targeted
individual in their own home, absolutely two different mindsets. It's
very possible that that was a smoke screen. He obviously
had some pass connection. But I can't imagine twenty some
(48:17):
odd years later feeling the need to go back and
do anything other than, hey, I have I'm familiar with
these surroundings here, so let me do something catastrophic in
order to disappear and do what I need to do.
Very possible.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Well, more answers are coming. More will come today. I
believe one hundred percent. There'll be a manifesto. They'll be
writing on social media. There'll be statements that he's made
to loved ones and brands. These folks never operate in
a vacuum. They are usually extremely verbal, extremely outspoken about
(49:00):
the things that they're upset about. Matt about it'll be
there somewhere if they don't already have it. But Scott W.
I appreciate your insight and your expertise as always.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Thank you, I thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (49:15):
I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I
always do with a quote animals don't hate, and we're
supposed to be better than them, Elvis Presley. I'm Cheryl McCollum,
and this is only seven
Y'all, tonight is an important conversation that needs to happen.
I used to teach college. Our guest tonight still teaches college.
In that level. It's a different place, it's a different
time in your life as a parent dropping somebody off.
(00:30):
I mean, you just think, man, the next four years
are going to shape them. They're going to have the
time of their life. They're going to have so many experiences.
You're just thrilled for them. And tonight, Scott Duffy is
going to help me talk about what happened in Providence.
So Scott Duffy, y'all remember he's been here before. He's
(00:51):
a good friend. Senior director of Training at Wilmington University
in Delaware, retired at the Supervisory Special Agent, and y'all,
he's also been a technical advisor for HBO Max. He's
also one of the experts for the Wildlife CSI Academy
(01:13):
and a favorite, I might add. So Scott Duffy, welcome
back to Zone seven.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Chareyl. Good evening, and thank you so much. What a
wonderful introduction.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Always humbled all true, and that's all true. Don't have
to pad anything for you, but you know, the last
time you and I had dinner. You were talking so
lovely about your students. You are so excited for them.
You bring world renowned people to Wilmington, You expose them
(01:51):
to experts in all kind of genres and levels and disciplines,
and just that joy on your talking about what they're doing,
the things they're accomplishing. That to me is what from
a teacher perspective, a professor perspective, that's the whole, that's
(02:13):
the gig. It's almost like your child. You put what
you got in them, and then when you see them
just go You are so proud, just like a parent.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Wow. Yeah, you are a good reader of faces and
body language. I love. I loved my job as a
police officer and a bi agent. I love what I'm
doing now at Wilmington University and of course at Montgomery
County Police Academy in Pennsylvania, where I get to teach
(02:47):
new recruits. So being at the beginning of their stages
of life, their careers, whether it be in the college
section where not all criminal justice students who are taking
my classes, or in the criminal justice field, they could
(03:08):
be psychology. It a whole fast of backgrounds, but I'd
love being with them. I love listening to them their
perspectives at such a young age, and I do my
classic let me ask you a questions as all these
(03:29):
young people, you know, having Instagram, TikTok and whatnot, and
a lot a lot of their information coming through, so
I'd like to see where they're at with regards to
their love of the criminal justice system. They're they're just
whatever you want to call it, their angsts, right, they're
(03:52):
I'm not so sure we're going down the right path
all those things. And and then I'd like to take say,
bear with me, however many weeks were together and see
if I always like to give them that positive side
of law enforcement because sow so so many just just
(04:12):
dedicate their lives to just doing the good.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Yes, it is amazing. And you know, my daughter Caroline
was at that same dinner and she asked you, what
is your favorite class to teach? And you leaned back
and you went, ooh, that's a good question. And what
was so fantastic to me was there's more than one.
(04:38):
Like you're excited about a lot of things you can
teach these young people. And at the end of that dinner,
Caroline leaned up for to me she went, I want
to take that class, and I went, me too. I mean,
you're just so you just fire people up, and I
just appreciate that about you. And you know, I know
there's some lucky, lucky folks in Della where.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Yeah. And you know, also the nice thing about Wilmington
University is we do so much in the online field
and when I'm talking to students who I can just
see on a camera and it's amazing where they're zooming
in from, whether it be I've had military overseas saying hey,
(05:22):
I'm in attend I'm taking a class, or you know,
taking a break from whatever it is they're doing, or
across the world where different students come and just to
be a part of the class from this, that and
of itself is a pretty cool experience. And then every
student gets to, I hope, learn from just the different backgrounds,
(05:46):
cultures and perspectives.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
And I think this love of teaching and just the
love of our students makes what happened in Providence all
the more gut n because here you have young people
expand in their mind, broadening their world, and they're just
gunned down. I mean in the engineering building getting ready
(06:14):
for a final, taking a final, studying for a final,
and you got two people killed, nine people injured, and
they can't find it.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Zone in on what you had just said, people taking
a final. So just walking any hall of any school,
but especially in a college atmosphere where you have everything
going on. In a college. You can go to any
(06:49):
college building, whether it be an engineering, sciences, you know, whatever,
criminal justice, and students are doing everything studying, group study,
self study, they're socializing. It is everything that happens on
the street is taking place in what is supposed to
(07:12):
be a place to let your guard down, where you
have no worry of the outside world, or shouldn't have
a worry of the outside world. You are, at least
you believe to be confined in a secure space. And
(07:34):
now at the end, I watched the students, you know,
at the beginning, all the nerves, and then as everybody
gets to know each other, as the semester goes on,
everybody is engaged and genuinely relaxing those nerves and stresses.
And then of course essays, tests, whatever have you. They
(07:57):
are designed to build a little bit of that stress.
And then of course exams, the final exams what hopefully
get that grade that you need, you want, that you
work for, saying goodbye to friends, perhaps lovers that you've
you've encountered in that short period of time in college
(08:22):
before everybody goes off on a holiday, whether it be
a you practice of faith or not. Right you are,
everybody is leaving, and you're kind of like flushing out
everything you've learned with that final exam, like now you're
going to move on. You're can enjoy family, friends. There
(08:43):
should be no worry, especially as we have seen unfortunately
time and time again of these unspeakable acts of violence.
Whatever be the motive, but that somebody brings crashing down
(09:06):
to students who are simply in their most vulnerable place
in life. And then, of course not just the students there,
but just how it affects that campus itself. The whole
campus had to change and heartbeat, and then every campus
(09:29):
then has to constantly reevaluate, so students across any learning
platform is affected by this, and this just continues.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
To Man, it is so crazy because it was four
twenty two in the afternoon. I mean, I don't think
anybody in that building had anything on their mind except
what you said, I'm going to finish what I've got
to do right here, and I'm going home, and it's
(10:06):
going to be a fantastic holiday season, right, And you
know their parents, they've already bought tickets, they've already made plans,
they've already bought gifts. And you know the college. I mean,
they send out alert to hide, to stay where you are,
to take cover, to silence your phone. They're trying to
let people know there is an active shooter on campus,
(10:29):
which it's unimaginable to people. So I think when you
first get that notice, when you're not in the building,
you're not within earshot of hearing the gunfire, it's got
to almost be like, is this real? Especially at a
place like Providence, Rhode Island idyllic.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Right, Having grown up in New England, myself in Connecticut,
so just to stay below and now, of course i'm
a little biased with New England, just that every town
has a green and a gazebo, yes, and you know
(11:11):
something going on like a miracle on thirty fourth Street.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
It is. When my sister first moved to Connecticut and
I went to visit, everywhere I went looked like a
movie set. Everywhere. The bridge is, the waterways, the houses everything,
and you think, you know, a university of this stature
in a beautiful state, in a beautiful city. I mean,
(11:40):
it's just not that anywhere is okay, not that anywhere
is predictable, But you certainly don't say, oh, I bet
there's going to be a mass shooting in Providence Trhode
Island at the college.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Then it happens, right, every student's nightmare, it is. And
as we see time and time again, how the old
fashioned fire drills have turned into the active shooter drills
(12:14):
and have unfortunately, having looked into these and covered these
time and time again, it seems like it's not if.
But when that's the unfortunate reality we live in as
(12:34):
it spreads throughout.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Well, don't you think another reason is because you've got
a soft target. But that target can get even softer.
So again, you go into some campuses and maybe there's
a student there that's got a weapon that can stop you,
Maybe there's a student that's got some training that can
stop you. Certainly law enforcement that seem more than one
(13:00):
active shooter. But here it's almost like nobody was prepared
to take this person on.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Yeah, and this case seems to have all the air
marks as law enforcement has learned because Right Jerald law
enforcement learns from other law enforcement agencies that have gone
through things. And not every department has that luxury of
(13:31):
the resources, etc. In the training, especially your smaller departments throughout.
But we are in a place in life, as this
post Columbine world, that there are no more excuses for
not having at least the adequate resources where everybody at
(13:57):
some point is preparing not only law enforcement those but
those that we protect. Right that the universities, the college is,
the high schools, the junior highs, et cetera, that they
have some sort of security measure in place and know
what to do through these alert these alice trainings, run
(14:18):
hide fight trainings, and that situational awareness that is built
into now our brains. And so these students very smart.
You know, you're probably your best of your best that
have crammed, have stressed, have whatever it is to help
(14:41):
them get to that moment. And that is it. All attention.
All eyes are in a paper with a pencil or
pen or a computer, and you have zoned out everything
else as well as you should take a test, and
(15:02):
then anybody who's not there taking a test simply whether
you've left the exam or we're getting ready for an exam.
They know this is just a few more hours, a
few more days, and then we can get home and
uh and and then all that comes crashing the most
(15:24):
sacred space, that that protected space is violated by such
unspeakable violence. However, as we are seeing little little bit
of information that comes out still here or video there,
this individual spent some time unlike our typical active shooters
(15:48):
that they idealize that they they then fantasize about it,
right and and then and and nobody's where what's happening,
So you don't have that break in that cycle of
violence that's going on inside their head to where they
(16:11):
make a decision to execute it. And they come running
in and you know, as an active shooter, a massive
shoot or what they want to do the most harm
in the shortest period of time, that's what they thought about,
maybe having a face in mind of somebody or someone
that they think about and try to find. But once
(16:38):
they ultimately commit to doing such a horrifying act, planning
goes out the window. It is now just a mass attack,
and so they're not thinking of their escape and most
likely they haven't been hanging around thinking about they leave
(16:59):
wherever they leave, if they have their weapons of choice,
and then they go in. But this seems to be different.
And the more we are starting to see, even though
little bits of information are coming out, you have a
couple hours of an individual that they believed to be
(17:20):
that of the gunman who's there in the neighborhood casing
pacing that seems to go against what we believed to
be that of a pattern the shooter.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Tom Smith, former detective with NYPD. He and I were
texting each other when they first talked about the suspect
at the hotel, and he literally texted me, that doesn't
fit the pattern, and we both kind of said to
each other, Yeah, I'm not going to post about that.
(17:58):
I'm not going to put that information out there because
doesn't seem right. And you know, we do have video.
I run across this all the time in my job
as a crime scene investigator. Two things people will say,
I didn't think anything that I knew was going to
make a difference, or I was waiting for the police
(18:20):
to come and talk to me. Well, any little piece
of information, just a slither, could make all the difference
in the world, especially if we hear the same thing
over and over and over. And the second thing is,
we don't know to come interview you if we don't
know you exist, so please please reach out. So what
(18:43):
I tried to say is, look, we've got him on video,
which gives us a date in real time, a location,
and a direction of travel, which is so important. You
know which way he's going when he's leaving, so that
tells the next neighbor, and the next neighbor check your video,
(19:04):
and even if it's a tesla, go check your car.
We don't know where he might have cut through or
gone around or hidden for a minute, so check everything.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
If you have a camera, it only takes a few
minutes to go through your ring camera. You have an
idea of the time and then you know, especially with
technology these ring cameras or even your savanillance video and
businesses and so forth, they're so user friendly and they
(19:37):
are designed to tell you, hey, somebody's out there is
something that's queued up your camera, and don't waste your
time looking at all the other debt space or your
camera's not picking up on action. Look at what is there.
It takes a few minutes while law enforcement, as you
well know, right when you are getting hundreds or thousands
(20:00):
of hours that then they have to go through those tapes,
those recordings real time. Yes, we are looking right for
for that one shot that is going to catch him
or her without a mask, or to catch a logo
(20:21):
of a shoe or getting into a car, whether it
be their car or noob or some means of travel.
And that's it. And I believe people are finally looking
at these things and providing law enforcement with it. And
(20:42):
that's why we're starting to see it's not just a
few minutes around that four twenty before and the after.
Look at the casing and the.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Pacing, hands behind his back.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Hands behind his back.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Oh oh gosh, that's so cool ritical to me. And
I want you to jump in because you know you're
at the federal level. You've been involved in major cases,
you've done task force, you've done incredible things. Please, when
you're going to do a press conference, Number one, the
(21:20):
person has got to be trained to do a press conference.
It doesn't have to be the president or the chief
or the director. It doesn't It needs to be somebody
that can articulate the mission, what you're doing. And give
what they can give of the investigation. Because here's the
deal in a situation like this, when you are asked,
(21:43):
we have video of him leaving the building, do we
have video of him inside the building? And your response
is something to the effect, we don't have confirmation that
it's him inside the building. What How's that possible, Scott Duffy,
how is it possible? So either they didn't want to answer,
(22:04):
right because they don't want to say just like when
they were asked, well, they're saying, he yelled something before
he started shooting. Yeah, but we don't know what that was. Okay, really,
because you've got a whole lot of people that survived
that event, I think you do know what he said,
and if you would tell us, it may narrow down
the suspect.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Poll pieces of information like that are important. You don't
have to give the exact phrases. You don't have to
give You don't have to give every piece of information away.
I get it. You do want to keep law enforcement
does want to keep things close to the vest. However,
(22:46):
we're four days away from this and even though it
is still early in the investigation, and what I mean
by early is that typically we have seen active shooters
where they are in custody or deceased very quickly after
(23:07):
the incident, and so law enforcement has provided a name,
and then ultimately the people want to know what's the motive.
And sometimes that motive may never be realized because I've
always believed and said that motive lies alone in the
(23:28):
heart and mind of the one who is committing that
act of violence. And if that person is not in
custody because they are deceased, or they are in custody
but have refused an interview with law enforcement, then we
can only use the evidence that before uson gathered and
say we believe this is the motive, some sort of revenge,
(23:52):
some sort of hate, some sort of mental health component,
whatever it may be. I do believe if what is
said that witnesses can reasonably ascribe to law enforcement, there
(24:13):
should be something given to the public that can help
somebody who may know this individual and say, oh, okay,
that just struck a chord with me because that I
heard from a friend, from a colleague, from a family member,
and wow, they've been missing the pasta play something that
(24:38):
could generate a solid lead for law enforcement to follow
up on.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Wales said, yes, And at this point you have an
active killer somewhere. And like you and I were talking earlier, today,
there's been another murder of an engineer about an hour
away from Providence. So is it the same killer? Does
he have a list? Is it something about engineers? And
(25:10):
this is where intelligence is going to come into play
with a lot of our federal friends. I know the
majority of jihadist are engineers. Well, has somebody turned on
their own? People? Like? What is going on?
Speaker 2 (25:28):
This?
Speaker 1 (25:28):
To me? Law enforcement cannot do this alone. They can't.
Every single set of eyes and ears needs to be
out there. And I'll give you an example we saw today.
Now this happened days ago, but we saw just today,
you know, FBI and other law enforcement shoulder to shoulder
(25:49):
searching yards for something he might have discarded. Okay, that
should have been done day one. People, when you go
outside to check your mail, or walk your dog, or
get your over and off the bus, look around. Is
there a water bottle? Is there a cigarette butt? Is
there anything in his path of travel that was not
(26:10):
there yesterday? That should have been done. That's what should
have been said at the press conference. Did you see anybody?
Did you not see anybody but hear your dog bark?
Do we know where he went after the last visual
we have? What got them to that Hampton end twenty
miles away? Why did that happen? How did that happen?
(26:34):
How do you find this person? And they have guns,
but they're not the right person. But you can't find
this person. You need the public's help.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Absolutely, you need the public's help. And this is where
you provide enough information that gets the public thinking, hey,
thank you very much. That is a question for someone
out there that has an answer or and a call
can be made as opposed to as you said earlier,
if someone doesn't is not aware of what kind of
(27:10):
cameras or what how many cameras? That first and foremost,
you haven't gone to many crime scenes, you know, day one,
early in that investigation, that crime scene is now secure.
Somebody designated detective, somebody in that pool of investigators has said,
(27:33):
hey boss, we got six cameras. Are you sure it's
not seven? It's not eight? Nope, it got six and
already on it pulling all the footage. Right. That's that's
within hours. Or hey boss, guess what, there are no
cameras in this side of the building that sucks. Okay,
(27:54):
well all right, well let's let's now see where we
have cameras and start pulling the footage that is one
on one getting you the eyes and ears on something
that can tell no lies. There's no trauma involved with
a camera. The camera is simply stating the facts and
(28:17):
ready to be downloaded to help an investigator say, Ahi, okay,
here's something that we now know that we didn't know before.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
So I mean, it's not just Christmas break for the students.
The teachers are gone, a lot of the maintenance is
going to be gone, the coaches are going to be gone,
and so you know, law enforcement, they've probably scaled back
a lot too. A lot of them are probably going
to be able to take vacation. So you know that
campus is going to be somewhat deserted. Not everybody's leaving.
(28:52):
There'll be some international students that stay behind, but I'm
saying for the most part, everybody's going to have somewhere
to be. They're going to go home with somebody else,
or you know, they're going home themselves. So I just
think probably this person was super aware that things were relaxed.
Everybody wasn't there. Maybe even law enforcement didn't have the
(29:12):
same amount of people even patrolling. Do you think that's possible.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
I think that's very possible. And as you know, every
theory should be in red. In a war room where
all the investigators are sitting at a round table, square
whatever and theorizing. What let's start. Let's start with the
(29:41):
the each Let's go around the room. Everybody give us
a thought. Where is this a domestic gone bad? Is
this a love triangle? Is this a student that was
kicked out? Is this a veiled threat that turned into
a reaction? What every imaginable Is this a random act?
(30:04):
Is this somebody who has no connection to the area
jumped off ninety five and said, I think I'm going
to go find the first whatever? Right, every imaginable theory, motive,
thought is put in red. And then you say, where
(30:24):
does the evidence take us? Is it taking us closer
to one or further away? So? I absolutely, And of course,
like anything, you start with your inner circle. And in
the classroom setting, what's that inner circle? The connection to
the students. I heard a colleagues say the victimology, absolutely,
(30:51):
and the question the further we get away four or
five days as we are getting away. The evidence is
grown cold, evidence is being lost.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
When I saw the video, I thought, well, this person
clearly doesn't have an AR fifteen, so it looks like
a handgun. So he wanted to be closer, he wanted
to be more deliberate. Interesting. And then when he's pacing
in front of that one house with the fence, he
turns and he puts his arms behind his back and
(31:27):
he's looking around and he's walking. He looks like a
middle aged man, possibly from the Middle East. Am I crazy?
Or does that how he looks to you?
Speaker 2 (31:37):
So, having traveled a little bit in my previous job,
when he put his hands immediately behind his back, my
first thought was, and as an investigator, if I was
in that room, I would be saying, as soon as
I saw that video, that's an international why because I've
(31:58):
experienced where I have been with plenty of my law
enforcement friends in the Middle East, where I even joked,
you guys all walk around with your hands behind your back,
and it's so we and and that's what our jobs are.
(32:19):
Right to make assessments, judgments and allow the evidence to
say otherwise. But I would absolutely agree with you. I
felt at that moment when the very first video we
saw of the man turning a corner, I'm like, ah, okay,
he's not running. He doesn't seem as we have seen
(32:43):
active shooters where they actually commit the act and they
are so thrown off because they've realized this, what have
I done? And that's why they don't have an exit
plan that it is I'm going to meet law enforcement
and going to meet face to face, and it's going
to be my demise. The reality has set in and
(33:08):
here it seems like, especially as more video, he's casing
and pacing well in advance where he seems to really
be methodical, which tells me not random, but very targeted.
And then of the video with him putting his hands
(33:29):
behind his back, that seemed very natural. It was a
very natural thing for him to do. And he wanted
to look in place, not out of place. But to me,
I thought, boy, he definitely looked out of place and
not from here, do I That was my first thought.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Okay, mine too, And that's the kind of thing to me. Again,
any information they have regarding that, they should put it
out because he's got to get gasoline somewhere, he's got
to eat somewhere, he's got to sleep somewhere where if
we don't know who we're looking for. And I think
that's what's critical for me. Stop trying to protect or
(34:11):
you know, make sure you only say something that you
one hundred percent know, you already know, you already know
what your victims have said that have survived it. Tell
it because you need people's help to find him. You
don't know where he is. And again now we've had
another engineer murdered because he opened his front door. That
(34:32):
seems targeted. That seems way too close, that seems way
too you know, I don't like it. I don't like it.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Yeah, and especially in light of everything else that is
seems to be taking place around the world. Australia, we
are in the holiest of holy seasons, are we not?
We are no matter what faith you have, it is
the holiest of seasons. And so I remember a year
(35:05):
after year, you know, receiving some sort of intelligence bulletin
that says, beyond the lookout, this is a time where
law enforcement needs to be vigilant and looking out for
you know, maybe a piece of intelligence came out. Sure,
and it seems like, especially between last New Year's Eve
(35:29):
where you had too. Well, you had the New Orleans
and then Las Vegas, right, they seem to be connected,
but they were two different types of terror plots. And
and yet the season it's it's it's the season, and
so law enforcement is vigilant thing. And we just saw
(35:50):
the New Year's Eve plot in Los Angeles foiled. There
is something going on, and I do believe if it's
not connected, there are people coming out that are targeting
this season specifically.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
And here's the reality. Even if it's not connected, we
know one suicide causes another causes another. One school shooting
causes another causes another. We know that you can call
it copycat, you can call it whatever you want, but
we do know that occurs. It's almost like, hey, he
(36:28):
did it, the time is right, I'm going to do it.
So to me, that is a.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Connectivity where the individuals may not be following orders from
one specific group or person, but they know enough where hey,
we're coming out in this time to wreak havoc because
this is a happy time of preparation time for so
(36:54):
many people, and ultimately we want to disrupt that.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
And you know, you mentioned how Los Angeles just thwarted
a terrorist attack that was outstanding police work. That's an
example of when more than one agency works together, what
can get done and lives can be saved. I mean,
they had drone footage of them practicing blowing things up.
(37:20):
And you know one thing they mentioned is these folks talked,
they share things, they thought they were on encrypted apps
and that sort of thing. But our intelligence community got
a hold of it. Put their picture on a wall,
like you said, get in that war room, put their
picture up, put their address up. What are they saying?
(37:40):
What is their target date? Well, here we are and
if it is the Holy season, it's pretty clear. It's
pretty clear. Australia, Los Angeles, Rhode Island.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Yes, And we know from research that these type of
incidents incidents of hate, regardless of what your target of
hate is. That people don't think in a vacuum. They
are talking about it, they are chatting about it, they
(38:13):
are doing something overtly about it, and somebody knows something,
they've overheard something, or they can't imagine, Oh my gosh,
I would have never imagined the person would have actually
carried something out right. We all say stupid stuff, We
(38:34):
all think out loud, sometimes to our friends or inner circles,
but no different in these type of situations, even if
they're lone wolves or they're lone actors or withdrawn from society,
they are putting that information out somewhere on a platform somewhere,
and I would be hard pressed to believe that Providence,
(38:58):
Rhode Island is anything to.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Scott Duffy and I recorded this episode a couple of
days ago. Last night there was a conclusion to the
case where the shooter was found deceased. So we're going
to now just do a little tag at the end
and now we're just going to give a quick summation
about the things that it transpired overnight. Well, Scott Duffy,
we were pretty close.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
I tell you, Cheryl, what a night, right. I mean,
so much has taken place. How many states are involved
in this investigation, and I would agree, I think we
were as close as could be without being in that
war room of detectives.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
That's right. And let me tell you, I'm a little frustrated,
and I don't know about you, but I think when
they refuse to give a description, they refused to show
the cameras on the inside, they refused to give a
name afterwards, and then they say things like he took
counter measures to not be discovered. Change in a license
(40:04):
plate is nineteen twenty, Like, what are you talking about
as a countermeasure?
Speaker 2 (40:09):
You know? And we both agree, as I can see
many colleagues across speaking about this. With regards to press conferences,
what is going on between the leadership and the investigators.
There's some disconnect. I don't think. I don't think that
(40:30):
that could be understated or overstated. The detectives. I believe
that they were doing their work and hunting down which
ultimately came down to the shooter who took his own life.
But the press conference is the information coming out. I
(40:53):
think they got to go back and say, okay, own
up to Hey, what are the missteps? What are things
that we could do better? And we'll do.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Better best practices that's always what you should take away.
And here's the thing. Look at the number of people
that they targeted. Everybody was sharing photographs and I want
to just kind of put this out there for people.
If it does not come from law enforcement in a
(41:23):
situation like this, I wouldn't share it. There were a
lot of students whose pictures were put up as a
person of interest and that's real dangerous and you can
truly hurt people because to me, when I saw the video,
it looked like a middle aged person. It looked like
(41:44):
a middle aged, overweight man, and again with his hands
behind his back, looked like a particular culture. But when
you refuse to tell people that's what you're breeding, you're
breeding fear, and they're gonna be like, he looks like
this guy. No, he looks like that guy. No, Now,
we won't y'all to help us find this guy. Come
(42:05):
on now.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
The public is always ready to fill in that vacuum, right,
and so they have their own ideas, and when the
leadership allows those ideas to fester, you can't then just
come back at the end and say, hey, stop doing
it now. It's always going to happen as part of
our culture. And yes, we all take a lesson from this,
(42:29):
but I would agree a lot of people putting out
names of individuals, names that you just can't pull that back,
and they walk around with a target on their back
saying what did I do? While at the same time,
you have information that could be put out a little
(42:50):
bit earlier in order to continue to direct the information
to where people who are listening, and people are listening everywhere.
Can say I think I have something to offer and
send it to a tip line or something else that ultimately,
you know, we all step back and we realized their
(43:13):
lessons learned.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Well, let's talk about the Christmas miracle. You and I
talked about the general public. You can't have enough eyes
and ears. We said it, we were clear about it.
And along comes our witness. Along comes the person that
helped crack the case, or did crack the case as
far as I'm concerned, because he had a person, and
(43:35):
he had a vehicle, and he knew that person engaged
that vehicle with their keyfob. This is a homeless person
named John who's living in the basement of the building
where the attacks occurred, who saw the killer earlier in
the day, followed him, watched him unlock a car and
(43:58):
then lock it back and walk away from it, almost
like he thought, m I shouldn't let him see me
go to this car. He knew the car, remembered the car,
and then he went to Reddit and told them, y'all,
I'm dead serious. This is what happened. I engaged this person,
saw this person. I've got the car. This is what
(44:20):
law enforcement needs to be looking for. Day Z wrote
in on the car they went to the flock cameras.
And for y'all that don't know what a flock camera is,
law enforcement can put in a tag number or a
vehicle description, and those cameras will tell every time that
car hit a camera, and you can follow somebody from
(44:41):
Florida to Nebraska. And that's what they did, and that's
how they got to New Hampshire.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
That is a miracle. Who knows what this person was
up to. Next, the investigation hopefully will figure out that, Okay,
this is what we believe took place through whatever his writings,
if they exist, did he have a kill list? Were
(45:09):
their additional people? I would like to see if the
investigation can close this door on what took him to
Brown University other than his past twenty some odd years ago,
What festered, what took place, what was that trigger that
brought him in? And unlike active shooters we have seen
(45:33):
in the past, this person was casing not just hours before,
but at the very least a week before, right encountered
by additional people on that campus, around that campus. But absolutely, Cheryl,
thank God for this individual, this guy named John John
(45:54):
ought to receive not only that reward, but everything in
addition to.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
One hundred percent. There needs to be a GoFundMe for
him right now. And here's the thing. If you look
at this crime and then you look at the second crime,
and we talked about this off air, but I want
to talk about it on air right now. Here's what
came to my head immediately. DC sniper was the shooting
(46:22):
at Brown A smoke screen, a red heron a I'm
going to make them focus on this, so they missed
the professor. I think this person thought, they'll never connect it.
It's in another state, it's another person. This was at
a school, this is at a home. They'll never see
(46:43):
it as the same perpetrator. That's what I think he believed.
I think the target was the professor.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
Yeah, very possible. Right. Think about the amount of time
and effort he goes in case Brown University. Think about
everything that he had put all his efforts in, and
at the very least you think that this witness John
(47:13):
being courageous enough to actually have a conversation to try
to get more out of him, that that would have
sent this shooter far from the campus, saying whatever it
is I was planning on doing I'm now going to
go do somewhere else. No, he stuck it out. He
(47:35):
committed these acts of violence hours after that. So it
is very possible that his whole intent because he knew
where this professor lived, knew probably did his research, and
then goes and does what he does. That those are
(47:56):
two different mindsets. An actual shooter and in a targeted
individual in their own home, absolutely two different mindsets. It's
very possible that that was a smoke screen. He obviously
had some pass connection. But I can't imagine twenty some
(48:17):
odd years later feeling the need to go back and
do anything other than, hey, I have I'm familiar with
these surroundings here, so let me do something catastrophic in
order to disappear and do what I need to do.
Very possible.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Well, more answers are coming. More will come today. I
believe one hundred percent. There'll be a manifesto. They'll be
writing on social media. There'll be statements that he's made
to loved ones and brands. These folks never operate in
a vacuum. They are usually extremely verbal, extremely outspoken about
(49:00):
the things that they're upset about. Matt about it'll be
there somewhere if they don't already have it. But Scott W.
I appreciate your insight and your expertise as always.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Thank you, I thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (49:15):
I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I
always do with a quote animals don't hate, and we're
supposed to be better than them, Elvis Presley. I'm Cheryl McCollum,
and this is only seven
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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