Moved to a new city? Searching for mom friends? Need a brunch, bestie? We got you! This week, Zuri is joined by Danielle Bayard Jackson, a certified friendship coach, and she’s sharing her expert tips on how women can make friends (and how to keep them!) They also explore what it means to be a low-maintenance friend, can you have more than one BFF, and how to break up with your toxic friend (plus what are the red flags!).
Stay tuned as Z shares how her ten-year friendship began from slidin’ in the DM! And Danielle shares her fave apps for making friends and why it's okay to have different friends for different seasons!
Share this episode with a friend NOW + let us know your favorite part of the convo: @ZuriHall and @HotHappyMess
Don’t forget to hit up hothappymess.com for all the show notes mentioned in this episode and for ALL the deets on how to join our exclusive Facebook group!
Recent episodes: if ya feel like bingeing:
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ICYMI: Listen to 55: Dating Red Flags. One Night Stands. And Keeping Secrets from Your Man
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ICYMI: Listen to Episode 17: ...Are You in a Toxic Relationship?
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ICYMI: Listen to Episode 10: ...I Have Commitment Issues, Let's Chat, Attachment Styles
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hot, Happy Mess. Celebrate your magic in the middle of
life's messes. Happy. I'm Zeri Hall and this is Hot
Happy Mass Shoot. Hello, Hello, Happy Wednesday, babes. What's up.
(00:29):
I'm Zeri Hall, this is Hot, Happy Mess, and producer
Star told me to do a British accent. As soon
as I did it, it just felt super Australian. So, um,
I'm just going to apologize and to say welcome back
to the podcast. If you're listening to this on the
day that it uploads, it's probably Wednesday, um, but I'll
be honest, that means it's today because I was super
(00:50):
late recording my host reads today because it has been
a week y'all. I am in Las Vegas. I just
wrapped filming my fourth season with America Ninja Warrior. Woo Woo,
shout out, coming to TV screen on NBC near you
this summer. I still remember when I was a rookie
and I was so excited to be on the show
(01:11):
and it was like the biggest production I've been in
at that point in my life, and it was just
so exciting and it's still exciting, and it's changed my
life in such amazing ways. And oh my goodness, these
stories that we're telling, these ninjas who you're going to
get to know. Like, if you've never watched the show,
I truly recommend you check it out. Yes, this is
a shameless plug, but also because it's so much more
(01:34):
than athleticism, and you know, Ninja is doing amazing things
on the course, which they totally are. Um, but these
are really people who are working their butts off all
year round, going through a lot of difficulties and trials
and tribulations. I mean, you hear some really sad and
heartbreaking stories, but then you're really encouraged and feel a
(01:55):
little bit stronger to tackle, you know, the day to
day obstacles and hardship and challenges of your own life
when you see what they've overcome to just get to
the start line. I mean I have cried so many
tears in the last four seasons, but quite a few
this year, especially UM and happy tears, sad tears, proud tears,
(02:16):
all the tears. Um. But if you want to shed
some tears with me or not, if you just want
to watch some amazing ninjas do some cool stuff, then
check it out. It's coming to NBC this summer. American
Ninja Warrior, if you hear a slight list, it's because
good God, you guys, My invisil Ligne is back. Like
I lost it for six months, then I found it again.
(02:37):
They're back in I just one day these teeth are
going to get together, but probably no time soon because
I just cannot get well. It's not that I can't
be consistent. I just keep losing the trays and like
accidentally throwing them away inconsistent until they get tossed. So anyways,
like I said Ninja on NBC, this summer which means
summer is right around the corner, and your girl cannot
(02:58):
wait to catch a flight or two or five because
I need a vacation. I'm going to Europe and that's
my playground in June. I'm really excited. Stay tuned. I've
got some fun announcements coming up. But I'll be in
the French Riviera. Uh, gonna spend a little time in London. Um,
(03:20):
maybe a little Paris action. I don't know. That's kind
of the fun of it, is just going where the
wind blows me and leaving some room for the magic
to happen, whatever that is. But I'm excited for that vacation.
I'm curious to know and y'all got any summer lands?
What you up to do? When are you gonna gross
slide of my d M s? And tell me on
Instagram at Zuri hall Um. Also, you know, we've been
(03:43):
asking for the last few weeks to have listeners join
me on the show, and this is the last week
that we're accepting submissions for a very special episode where
I want to highlight you and your stories, have conversations
with you, get to know you. So, if you want
to chat with me about self of self care, love, dating,
OMG stories, w t F stories, your favorite episodes, whatever,
(04:05):
send us an email hello at hot happy mess dot com,
subject line chat with z and let me know why
you want to come on the show. All right, For
today's episode, we've heard of life coaches, budget coaches, dating coaches,
a divorce coach. How about a friendship coach? Yes? You
heard me right, Today's episode is all about friendship, How
(04:27):
to make friends as an adult. What are the signs
of a healthy or a toxic friendship? And what are
some of our biggest quote unquote female friendships stereotypes. You
are going to hear a lot of that in this episode.
I think this is so important because, especially the older
you get, I have found in my personal experience it's
even harder to make friends, you know, I saw. I
(04:49):
mean that was like, yo, making adult friendships is harder
than dating. We're finding the one, and sometimes I think
so because at this point in our life, a lot
of people are prioritizing finding the one, or they've already
found that person and they're building a life with them,
and so, you know, sometimes the friendships kind of take
second or third or whatever priority fair enough and understandably,
(05:10):
but that means trying to convince someone to prioritize you
when you're new on the scene becomes harder to do
because people have kids, they have jobs, they have lives.
And then also, where the hell are you finding all
these people? Campus was like the last prime opportunity to
just stumble into a bunch of people who are similar
in age, like minded, kind of in the same life
(05:34):
stage as you. And now you're just out in the world,
fending for yourself, running into random people and hoping that
two of you like each other. Not to sound morbid,
I'm sorry that was a bit of a downer, but
if that's how you feel fear not, don't go down.
I got you, girl, I got you. She's going to
be talking about cultivating community as it relates to new moms,
(05:56):
friends for different seasons and even low maintenance French ships. Right,
Sometimes you need the friends or the real ones who
get it and you extend that energy in the reverse
of you get it, you know, And I don't think
that's a bad thing. Sometimes that's exactly what you need.
So whatever type of friendship you're looking for, whatever type
of friendships you have, we're getting into the nitty gritty
(06:18):
before we dive in really quickly. I just want to say,
like I told you, it's been. It's hard. It's up
and down making friendships in your adult life. You know,
I have tried. I tried the friendship app. I only
went on one friend date. This was the years and
years ago, and then I just never got back on it.
I don't know. It was a lot of effort in
addition to actually being on dating apps, and like I said,
(06:39):
trying to you know, focus on that too. But one
of my best friends, like ever ever in life, Travasha,
I kind of did I slide in her d M.
I think we we became Twitter buddies because I followed
her on Twitter first, for sure, I think I probably
I think I did d M her first and I I
was like, Hey, I'm new in town. Do you want
to hang? Because she seemed cute and bubbly and fun
(06:59):
and how a fun personality. And I had just moved
to Indianapolis. It was my first job after college. And
I'm so glad I slid in those d m s
because she is a lifelong friend. She's like a sister
to me at this point. We're so close. I love
her dearly. It never would have happened had I not
taken that, not even risk. It was so chill, but
that very easy shooting of a shot and just saying, Hey,
(07:21):
I'm new in town and you seem cool. Do you
want to grab a drink or do you want to hang?
And she was like sure, absolutely, And she's kept that
same energy for the last decade plus of our friendship.
We actually just got back from the Lovers and Friends
festival in Vegas. Two of my best friends came out,
Um Ashley, who you all know from the group chat,
and Trevasho who you know from the group chat, and
then a bunch of other awesome ladies. We got a
(07:42):
v I P. Cabanna lived our best life to Neo
when Sierra and um who else was there? I think
Mario was there. I can't remember. I was gone by
that point because I was filming Ninja Warrior, genuine, John
b Usher, Ludicrous, all the people. It was your best
y two K dream Okay, and I got to create
(08:02):
those memories with some of my besties because you know,
we got out there and made these friendships happen all
those years ago. So if you want to make those
friendships happen in your life, if you've already got those
friendships and you want to learn how to maintain them,
if somebody is getting on your last nerves or you
think you've outgrowing the friendship, then this is the episode
for you. All Right, all right, it's time for our expert.
(08:23):
She is absolutely amazing, such fun energy. Should I slid
in your d MS, Danielle, I think I'm going to
we should be friends because I absolutely love this episode.
So without further ado, here's Danielle. Okay, here she is
Danielle Jackson. She's a certified friendship coach in National Speaker.
She's dedicated to teaching women how to create and maintain
(08:44):
meaningful female friendships. It's an art, y'all. She's here to
teach us it. She's been featuring NBC News for her expertise,
and her advice has been quoted in several other media outlets,
including Psychology Today, Well and Good at the Tampa Bay Times,
and Insider. Danielle is a member of the American Sociological Association,
and she studies the latest research in the areas of
(09:05):
social science to create practical ways for women to better
understand each other when operating in positions of leadership, friendship,
and mentorship. Wow. Well, this is the conversation that some
of us might not have known we needed, but we needed. Okay,
so I'm here to tell folks that we need to
figure this out. I'm so glad that you're here to
help us with it. Welcome, Thank you for having me.
(09:27):
This is my absolute favorite thing to discuss, so I'm
excited to jump in. Let's go ahead and do that.
First of all, let's get to know you a little bit.
Talk to me about your background. You're a mother, a wife,
a former high school teacher. You have your own pr agency,
so you've got a lot of stones in the fire. Yeah,
a lot going on. It's funny because I always joke
when people are like, oh, how did you become a
friendship coach, I'm like, you know, it certainly wasn't on
(09:48):
my vision board when I was eight, you know, be
a friendship coach, but I fell into it. I was
actually a high school English teacher for about six years,
teaching high school seniors, and during that time, you know,
you hear their conversations between classes. They're coming up to
me after class with their you know, friendship drama, you know,
and so I would coach them through it for like
six years and didn't realize at the time that's what
(10:09):
I was doing. And then when I left the classroom
to get into PR I thought foolish, like, I'm leaving
this behind. I'm leaving the drama behind because teenagers. But
little did I know that grown folks have their issues too,
and caring all into adulthood, right, we cannot get it together.
So that's when I realized, oh, this is something at
(10:29):
every stage of womanhood. We're trying to figure out how
do I navigate relationships with other women? And so when
I realized, you know, if you're having an issue with
your business, you'll hire a business coach. You're having issues
in your marriage, you'll get a counselor why is it
that with friendship we feel like it's something you should
have figured out and you can't get support. And so
I kind of went down the rabbit hole, and over
the past four years I've been, you know, serving as
(10:49):
a women's friendship coach, and so far it's been a
really fun journey. Yeah. I think it's so fascinating and
I love what you brought up, that point of being
intentional with our friendships the same way we are with
our romantic relationships or our employee employer dynamics, Like we're
very um, methodical and present when it comes to Okay,
how can I be a better employee, how can I
(11:10):
climb the corporate ladder? But cultivating meaningful friendships, particularly after
the pandemic, it we realized how important that is. It's
it's so um it's so overlooked sometimes and yet so
crucial to our mental health and mental wellness. I love
that you've got this coaching program we'll talk about later,
just kind of helping adults master platonic relationships and the
(11:32):
fact that the strategies you give are tangible rights, not
just like open up like ghost say how to fact people.
It's specifically like how do we rekindle an old friendship?
How do I create a new deep friendship? Making friends
in general? So I think it's important. I love that
you're doing it. Um, what was that day one journey?
Even like like okay, I want to be a friendship coach.
(11:54):
Was there anyone on this path before you? Because I've
not heard of this job title, but I kind of
love it. Yeah, to my knowledge, I saw some psychologists
who would who would sandwich it in their offerings like,
oh I can help you with this this, this is
this friendship. But as far as you know, I like
to stay in my lane. I'm a coach, not a therapist. However,
for women who are ready to learn what to do
just exactly as you described, and they don't want to
(12:15):
just process their feelings are like okay, great, I'm ready
to reach out to that friend or I think I
want to end this friendship? What do I do? That's
where I would come in. And so it's been really
cool to give women like practical steps, you know, TikTok.
My signature thing on my video is to give homework
at the end of the video, and and women are like,
I've screenshot at all your homework, you know, And so
it's something like, let's let's get to work because too
(12:36):
much of the conversation is kind of fluffy or maybe
high level, but when it comes to it applying it
in your day to day, it's like, what does that
look like? And so that's where I come in. Well,
the numbers speak for themselves. You've got I think at
last count, about a hundred ninety thousand followers on TikTok.
So you're given the goods there. People are clearly eating
it up. One what is your TikTok user name if
people want to go there and find that. Yeah, it's
(12:57):
the Friendship Expert, which is I just, you know, like
everybody else, I hopped on as an adult, you know,
shyly during the pandemic when you're like, oh, this is
for kids, but I'm gonna make an account and hide
behind here and then out of boredom, I really like
leaned in. And it's been I mean great, It's led
to so many opportunities UM that I would only dream of. UM.
As a matter of fact, a couple of months ago,
(13:17):
I signed a big book deal, and they told me
that having that TikTok was was one of the things
that kind of sold them, was to be able to
see other people buying in, to see tangible steps, and
so I'm really excited for that. So it's just been
a lot of cool things that is amazing. And congratulations
on the book deal. No easy feet, um, and wait,
hold on the notes that producer star told me it
(13:38):
was a six big book deal. It was. No, it's exactly.
It's it's a blessing, you know, to go from a
high school teacher who's waitressing on summer's off to something
that was not really a thing, like if you google
friendship coaching is I mean, really is a dream. It's
very cool and I'm so appreciative. Well, congratulations, it is
so deserved. Let's talk about friendship amongst women. Um, what
(14:02):
do you think is the most special thing about the
bond we have with our sisters? Right? Um? And also
what is the impact that female friendship has on our mental, emotional,
and even maybe physical health? Yeah yeah, you know, Uh,
it's nice to go through this world with somebody who
has that shared experience. So whatever that looks like and
for women, you know, especially in a patriarchal society, it's
(14:24):
nice to look at another woman, to have that look
across the room and you're just like a girl, I know,
did you see that? I know, you know, and yeah,
I saw it right, So it's nice to to have that. Um.
You know, there's research that shows that, you know, when
women are stressed, we're familiar with fight or flight. But
when they redid that study with more women, they found
that we have a higher range of responses to stress,
(14:45):
and one of them is called tend or befriend. So
when we're stressed, we'll either go and reach out to
younger people we feel are more vulnerable to protect, or
we'll go and seek out the company of other women,
at which time our oxytocin levels are released. And that
is the thing that quite live really decrease his stress.
So I always laugh when you know a boyfriend or
husband's like, oh, what are you gonna go talk to
your friends about it? I'm like, that's exactly what I'm
(15:07):
gonna do. Not kill you right now. Yeah, And so
it's really cool to see how even in the body
and the brain, things happen when we are having conversations
with other women. Is is very important. Um, you know,
they're telling us that the single greatest factor on your
overall health and well being is not your income, it's
not your marital status, it's the quality of your relationships.
(15:29):
Which is so funny to me when I see there's
so much emphasis right on you know, hustle culture and
you know, grinding in your job and finding the one.
I mean, all those things are nice, But when we
see bodies of research saying the same thing about the
thing that's going to help your mental and physical health
is really your friendships, I mean, it's hard to look away. Yeah,
(15:50):
that those are really good points, and especially this idea
of adult friendships and how important it is to have
those people that you go to win maybe the other
pillars of your first shaking a little bit. I love
that you brought up, um, you know, hustle culture, because
this podcast, my entire vision for it was best life
minus the burnout. I spent all of my twenties just
(16:11):
go go go grinding, grinding, grinding tons of achievements. Like
loved it in those moments, but afterwards I would come
home to an empty house or less than stellar you know,
mental wellness or just a sense of peace. Um, and
I realized that I was not cultivating or maintaining my
friendships or even my relationships with my family. Yes, everyone
(16:31):
was technically there. Yes, if I picked up the phone
and call, they would answer or vice versa. But I
hadn't thought about how do I continue to strengthen and
deepen these bonds, how do I challenge us to grow
together in friendship and partnership. It was just kind of like,
you're my friend now, and I'll see it brunch, right,
And it was. It was kind of superficial at a
(16:52):
certain point, even when some of my best friends and
and we pivoted and worked to really strengthen those bonds
in recent years. Um. But I also have noticed that
the older I get, the more difficult it is to
make new friends. Like I've still got all my day ones,
like my best friends Tim plus years, right, I've got
four or five I can kind of want to. So
(17:13):
I'm really proud of that. But then I also sit
and think, wait, so I'm clearly a good friend. Why
the hell is it sound hard to make new friends
and keep them when we're older? Why why is that?
Do you have an answer? Yeah, you know that actually
starts to happen around the age of twenty five, when
our social circle shrinks. And a lot of uh, that
makes sense because that's when we're coming out of college,
coming into our own and we shift our priority to
(17:35):
building family ties to advancing in our careers. We're no
longer in a space that's saturated with our our peers
and we're out here on our own. We gotta figure
it out. And so that's when we start to notice, Wait,
where where did my people go? And we never really
formally learned how to do this? Um And so it
doesn't surprise me that, like once we get upper twenties thirties,
we're struggling with how do I make new friends? UM.
(17:56):
I think a lot of people also struggle because they'll think, Okay,
I think I'm charismatic, I'm until legent. Why is this
a struggle for me? But it's just generally, you know,
kind of difficult. Work from home doesn't make it much better.
People are are moving because they can. They're remote now,
um and and things like that. They have taken away
our you know, the backdrop of a workplace. And so
that used to be a space where we were meeting
(18:17):
people and making connections, so we really are kind of
seemingly out here on our own. Um. I think it's
interesting to hear you talk about, you know, your friendship
history and your status and what you've got going on,
and and I'm not surprised to hear about how it's
something you kind of noticed along the way, because we
do tend to talk about friendship like it's a luxury,
and like you mentioned brunch, like you need some girls
(18:37):
to go to brunch with, and you know, when we're
talked to, you know, value romantic partnerships and and find
your man, find somebody to be with and and to
advance in our careers. We almost take advantage of the
friends that we have because we know they'll be there,
so we'll tend to them when we get to that
because I gotta focus over here. But then sure enough,
as you know, we look up when all that that
stuff is settled and we're like, where did my where?
(18:59):
And my girl wild scale because it requires the same
level of love and attention. So when it comes to
making new friends, I have like all these strategies, but
first I always like to say to to start with
the circle you already have because a lot of times
when we say, oh, Daniel, I want to make new friends,
I think we're using that's anonymously for I want to
meet new people, and the two are not the same.
You know, making friends refers to the art of cultivating
(19:22):
something meaningful with another person, and who says that has
to start from scratch. A lot of us have some
people in our network loosely who would be cool, but
we've dismissed them for whatever reason. They're too young, too old,
too weird, not weird enough, you know. We're just like,
I don't know, she's like my vibe. But a lot
of us have a good little mix if we really
were to pay attention and don't necessarily have to start
(19:42):
from scratch. So sometimes it starts there. Yeah, okay, Well,
I'm excited to dig into the nitty gritty of how
to cultivate these friendships because according to the Census, the
average number of times a person moves in their life
is about eleven point seven times. I have moved to
at least six different cities, like five different states since
high school, right, and I'm early thirties at this point.
(20:04):
Some of my friends have moved ten to fifteen times domestically, internationally,
and it's such, um, it's such a massive act of
emotional and mental labor to kind of start over again. Period.
Forget about the house, the apartment, the job situation. Now
we've got to find these friends. So I'm excited for
you to share that knowledge with people who may be
(20:25):
moving and starting fresh, or may just be looking up
at the world around them and deciding I kind of
wanna you know, and use this with some more life
and some more deaf. Um. So, how do you suggest
we make friends as an adult? What are the first steps?
Where do we find our people? Yeah? So the first thing,
at the risk of sounding like a life coach, is
to make sure you've got your mind right because a
(20:45):
lot of people stopped themselves because they believe things that
are not true, and it um indirectly impacts the way
that you engage with people. So I hear a lot
of people say like, I just feel like I'm too late,
you know, like I'm in my thirties, can I really
make friends? And so if you believe it's too late,
you're not engaging the way you should. Or we feel like, oh,
I'm too insert perceived inadequacy here, I'm too shy I'm
too introverted, I'm to whatever, And so we feel like
(21:08):
we're somehow um less capable because of something we think
is wrong with us. So we have a lot of
different things going on. But once we get past that, UM,
a couple of easy ones I like to to suggest
that you can start right away is to integrate more
routine into your day or your week. So I know
that's very unsexy, but we tend to meet people when
we are familiar, like we get gradually more familiar with them.
(21:29):
So if you walk your dog, try to walk your
dog about the same time every day, or at least
in the same place. If you go to UM, the
gym or a coffee shop, can you do that with
more regularity, because that's when we're making those like serendipitous,
organic kind of connections where you've seen somebody like four times,
so they're more enthused and more inclined to say like, hey,
I you know, Hey, I notice that you're doing this,
(21:51):
or hey can I borrow you know your cord or whatever?
Because you seem approachable because your face is familiar. But
we have to breed that familiarity, and that takes repetitive
shin and so the easiest thing is to start to
integrate more routine, especially for those of us who are
working from home home all day and then simultaneously wondering
how to naturally meet people. Another one is, I know
we've heard of these like meet up groups and things
(22:12):
like that, but the mistake we make there is we
go one time and then we're like, I didn't find
my people, and then right yeah, like and if I
wasn't my vibe, and we don't go back again. But
I always encourages to go at least two three times
because you engage differently when you know you're coming back.
So if I am going one time to check it out,
I'm operating in the role of critic, and I'm seeing
(22:34):
if people seem cool, I don't know, I don't really engage,
and I'm like, I wasn't feeling it and I leave.
But if I know I've made myself come back a
couple of times and I committed to coming every week
for a month, then it changes how I show up.
I'm making new friends by like introducing myself, or I'm
able to say, oh, hey, you know, Susie, you mentioned
your dog was sick last week. How did things go
(22:54):
with that like I have something to work with, I
have some intel I can use them build on. But
we still want to meet somebody the first time, especially women,
because we're secretly auditioning her to be our best friend
in our head. And if we notice any little thing
that doesn't check out or meet our preferences, we're done.
And so some of it is just like going past
the first impression and and staying open minded. So routine
(23:17):
the meet up groups is one and then another one
that's super easy is to you know, connect with your
super connector friends. So these are those people who are
very extroverted for some reason. They always know what's going on,
They've got people around them, you know, why not reach
out to them and say, listen, I'm trying to get
more plugged in, be intentional, and I thought of you
because you've always got something going on. Do you know
of anything around town that's worth checking out? Or you know,
(23:39):
on the on the more optimistic, and they might invite
you to be there plus one, but at least they're
going to give you recommendations. But we're so afraid to
signal our our hunger for connection because we fear looking desperate.
It's just gonna make me look clingy? What's wrong with me?
So all of us are walking around here thinking, man,
I'd like to be more connected, but I'm not gonna
say it because how would that make me luck? Mm hmmm.
(24:01):
That is so so true, so poignant, because you're right
articulating our need for connection, especially these days right there,
there have been so many headlines, particularly at the intersection
of black women and mental health and feeling alienated or
alone and sometimes the really painful and devastating um consequences
(24:22):
that come with that because we don't necessarily feel safe
um to express what we need, or we feel like
we have to always wear that cape or be strong,
silent and strong and sometimes alone um, which is a
perfect segue into loneliness, something that I think a lot
of us have, probably all of all of us, and
it is safe to say I would be willing to
(24:42):
bet we have all at some point in our lives
dealt with or felt feelings of loneliness. The pandemic obviously
exacerbated that for so many of us, and it really
altered how we interact with our friends, our family, um
and severely limited our ability to make new ones. So
you were kind of screwed if you didn't have that
friend group going into their pandemic. Um. And I'm curious
(25:02):
to know from your perspective as an expert, UM, what
do you think was the biggest way that COVID that
the the ensuing pandemic impacted friendship. Yeah. Well, you know,
like we mentioned earlier, I think a lot of it
was that organic, you know, seeing people in the elevator
or you know, being able to meet up very casually
for happy hour after work and it didn't take a
second thought. And I don't think a lot of us
(25:22):
were well practiced in how to be more intentional about it.
You know, I'm not going to see you in our
traditional way, so I don't really know how to be
friends in a new terrain. I don't know what to
do here. So I think some of us were a
little out of practice. UM. And you know, we can
zoom all day long, but that's never going to replace
you know, how our brains are wired to to be
together and see each other's faces in person and things
(25:44):
like that. Um. I think it's also a lot of
things that you know, our friend being removed and so
we've got to kind of interpret the silence and the distance,
and I saw a lot of people who you know,
thought that their friendship was over or they're thinking, oh,
I guess my friends don't care about me like I thought.
And a lot of that was because we have this
physical distance now, so we're you know, inserting our own
interpretations of what's happening your home. You're in your head
(26:06):
and you start to wonder, you know, about the state
of your friendship. Are you guys doing okay? And overthinking?
I saw that a lot, especially with women. Um some
women told me that, you know, maybe they were going
through certain things in their their lives financially with their families.
But because we don't want to burden our friends by
telling them what's going on, that actually contributes to feelings
of loneliness as well. Because your friendship remains superficial. You
(26:29):
start to tell yourself the message of like, gosh, nobody
gets what I'm going through. I'm so alone in this.
But simultaneously don't want to ask for help because I
don't want to put people out or I don't want to,
you know, for my self sufficient women. I don't want
to look like I need help, like I got this.
I don't need to ask them for help. But all
those things contribute to feeling like you're by yourself because
you don't want to let people in, when ironically, research
(26:50):
tells us that you know, helping another person makes us
feel closer to the person you know offering that help.
And so it's a lot of different factors that went
into making us feel more isolated than we already were
during the pandemic. But I think as long as we
increase our awareness about it and get intentional about getting
connected with the right people, then then we'll be better off.
(27:13):
I'm curious to know if you saw a tik tak
um that uh went viral. I don't know. They had
a lot of significant amount of numbers and it was
um a woman talking about her pandemic experience. I think
it's my tay Lizabeth. Did you see that? I did talk?
It was heartbreaking. I mean, she's tearing up and she's
talking about the fact that she realized she was a
Tier two or a Tier three friend, the fact that
(27:35):
she even labeled herself as that. I was like, damn,
because also I've been there, I'm like, oh, shoot, I
don't think I'm I don't think I'm at a tear one,
that's how this is playing out. UM. And she said
she spent a lot of the pandemic alone because she
wasn't in these pots, she didn't make the cut for
people's bubbles, and she thought that she had cultivated a
stronger community than she actually had and realized how alone
(27:57):
she was, and that broke my heart. One because it's
resident needed with me. I felt that in different ways
that necessarily in the pandemic, but just period, it's like
you don't know until you know, and you're like, oh wait,
I think I just got the memo. Wow, good to know. Um,
that's not how I saw that going. Um. But it's humbling.
And also I really respect her for opening up about
that because it's something that could easily be embarrassing, right, UM,
(28:20):
to be like, I'm the a man out, I'm the
person who didn't get picked to play in the gym class.
Whatever that is for you. UM. So I applaud her
for speaking to it. But I'm curious to know what
you thought about that, if you've felt similar sentiments expressed
in your coaching. UM, if you've ever felt that, Yeah,
you know, I I saw that video and UM, I
(28:40):
had the same response. It was a very vivid response
of oh my gosh, I almost feel her pain because
it was so raw. Um. And I think she was
putting I think she was putting word to a lot
of things people feel, but again are too scared to
stay out loud. Um. And I'm sure it resonated with
a lot of people because we're seeing, you know, studies
that show that we have more women living a own
than ever before. I mean, you can speculate to that
(29:03):
as you will, but it's probably because a lot of
us we have the access and the means, and we're
taking your time on getting married and looking at our options,
and so that looks like a lot of women living
by themselves. So I would imagine that a lot of
women who watched that video felt like she was really
speaking to their situation. And as far as the whole
like tier two, tier three friend and where we rank,
I don't think any of us have really had security
(29:24):
in that since my Space top eight and you knew
very clearly, you know, you knew very clearly if you
were like the number three friend, the number right exactly exactly.
And so it's funny because you know, research tells us
that only half of our friendships are reciprocal, and by
that I mean maybe, um, this person is my level
(29:45):
ten friend, like this is my right or die, But
in her life, I'm like a level seven And you know,
how do you respond to that information? Does it change
what you do or your approach? But you know, sometimes
it's not totally equal all the time for the duration
of our friendship, and it shifts as new people come
into her life in different priorities. And so with that
being said, you might be somebody's tier two even though
(30:06):
there you are tier one. You know, I don't know
that young lady's full situation, but I would say I
know sometimes we get caught in that whole, like, oh gosh,
I don't know if I'm anybody's number one, and we
keep from reaching out because of that. But you have
to ask for what you need. Yes, there is a
risk of rejection. Yes there's a chance she's like, I
don't have time for you, whatever, But most times it's
(30:27):
met with a warm reception or people saying, oh my gosh,
I'm so glad you reached out because I've been feeling
that way too. You know, you can't judge their situation
off of whatever Instagram posts they made and assume, Oh,
she's probably at her capacity for friends. I mean, look
at all the great things she's going on, you have
no idea what's behind that. I've worked with so many
women who are um ambitious and funny and and charismatic
(30:50):
whose Instagram you would see and think like, oh gosh,
she's got like a whole squad. Who's coming to me
because she has a squad and doesn't feel connected to
any of her friends and once real friends, you know.
So here we are kind of all doing the dance
of comparing and then judging it against our very real,
you know, in person situation and not realizing if you
want to be connected you have to reach out and
(31:11):
make it known. That's the only way to get your
needs met. And to your point about reaching out, I
love to ask for scripts, right, and no two situations
are ever the same, No two conversations opportunities for connection.
But if you had to make you know, general recommendations,
how do I approach a woman who I am curious
about exploring a friendship with without her being confused as
(31:34):
to whether or not I'm kidding. Yes, that's so funny.
More people have brought that up, like how do I
make it clear, like, girl, this is platonic. You know,
you gotta be careful. You gotta be careful. You know,
it's it's a couple of different things. If I'm meeting
a person for the very first time, I know it
sounds cliche, but it works. But compliments always work. There's
research that says ninety percent of people, UM admit that
(31:55):
a compliment feels good, but only fifty people are willing
to do it. And it's because we underestimate how well
people take it. So we all love it, but we're
scared to do it in case we make them uncomfortable.
But you know, research shows that people love it. On average,
people really like it, and so that gets people to
to kind of light up, especially with women. It's like
the easiest way to open the door to start talking
(32:15):
about something else, you know. Um So, so doing that
is something that always works. UM. Also making your intention known,
even saying like hey, I you know really like X
y Z about you and I've been looking for other
people who like that just as much as I do.
So you know, let me know if you're ever out
and about, like I'd love to get connected um or
I'm new the town and I'm trying to get more
plugged in, like to let her know I'm reaching out
because I like your vibe and I see something similar,
(32:37):
or I'm trying to get connected. Can you help me
with that? Like putting people in a position of help,
they tend to respond to um. And also, you know,
making it known that you like somebody, believe it or not.
As complex and multilayered as we like to think we are,
we tend to like people who like us. Research reveals
it's just that simple. And I always make the joke
it's kind of like maybe I'm just maybe it's just me,
(32:59):
But it's kind of like when you're in school and
like you find out that a boy's are crushing you
and you were never really looking at him, but now
that you know, you're like, I know he's kind of
in the right way. I work with it. Yeah, yeah, okay,
he's yeah, he's cute. Yeah I noticed. You know. It's
the same, it's the same idea. There's something about like,
let's say you and I were hanging out with a
(33:20):
group of friends and the next day I tell you, like,
oh my gosh, Ashley could not stop talking about how
funny you are. Suddenly you really like Ashley And that's
just how it works, and so we we know that
to be true, but we're so scared to telegraph our
real feelings. So even telling somebody like, you know, okay,
I like you, you know, and it could be playful.
I don't have to be intense, but it's just something
that puts the seed in her mind of like, oh okay,
(33:41):
we okay, I like, okay, she could she could work,
you know. And so sometimes it's just about making it known.
And a lot of us we think it, but it's
about having the courage to bring it to your lips
and make it known. Yeah. Yeah, the power of vulnerability, right,
putting ourselves out there's so scary, but the reward on
the other side is just so often worth it. Um
I wanted to ask you this a little bit ago.
(34:02):
You brought up meetups and and sort of those opportunities
to connect with people. Do you have any apps you recommend?
I went, I'm gonna tell this. I probably will have
told this story at the front of this episode. I
was on bumble BFF for like fifteen seconds, and half
the time people didn't think it was me. If they
were messaging me and I'm like, now I'm really looking
for friends in a way. UM and I went on
(34:22):
one bubble BFF day. It was when I first moved
to l A. So I was having a hard time
just meeting people outside in my industry, which is kind
of what I wanted. I just didn't want to always
be talking about what I talked about for really, UM
and I met some really cool ladies. I obviously only
hung out with one, but I'm curious to know is
that is that still a vibe? Like what's going on
with that app? Are there any others you recommend? Like
(34:43):
where where can we go? Um to meet people who
are already on the same page about wanting to meet
new friends. Oh my gosh, I love that you brought
that up, because in two that's a necessary part of
the conversation around friendship is technology. You know, we use
it for everything else. So you know, if there's anybody
who's like, don't know, if I want to meet my
friends on an app, it doesn't make you desperate, it
makes you resourceful. We do it for literally everything else,
(35:05):
especially those of us who are moving around and on
the go. Why not find people who are communicating? Hey,
I'm looking to be friends with some new people too,
you might as well, and jumping on those apps gives
you a baseline. So if anything, I always say that
there should be less of a fear of rejection because
you know, everyone signed up to make friends, so you
almost can be you know, you can almost rest assure
(35:26):
that she has the same ideas that you do, and
so she's she's happy to to welcome your invitations. UM
bumble Bff I really like because it's it's been tried
and true, and a lot of women are on there,
so you have kind of like a bigger pool to
pull from. But I think the mistake we make about
bumble bff is some of us go on there like
when we are kind of feeling like we want to
hang out, but we're not totally intentional about friendship. And
(35:49):
that's why you have like a lot of ghosting. Like
you send a woman a message and she maybe doesn't respond,
and then you're like really discourage from the process. So
a couple of tips to like really maximize that. UM.
I recently gave some tips Wall Street journals asking for tips.
I mean, even like the outlets you think would be
like friendship apps are like okay, talk to us because
we need to know. So recently Wall Street Journals asking
(36:10):
me for tips, and I told him the same thing.
If you're getting some you know, uh profile posted up
and you're ready to do this one, you have to
have positive language in your profile because research from these
apps shows that that's going to make the algorithm favor
you more than negative language. So some women will get
on there and say like, I don't like women who
and I don't get along well with people who. Okay,
(36:33):
that's great, but I'm here to connect with people. So
if I'm saying like I don't really like loud people, instead,
maybe I'll say something like I'm looking for people who
have who have kind of like a quiet energy like me.
That's what I get along with. So just flip it around,
what are you looking for? Um? And another mistake I
see is UM getting very general things in the profile
like I really like you know, dogs and music and
(36:55):
like who doesn't. Okay, all right exactly. This is your
chance to differentiate yourself from everybody else. So, you know,
do you have a memory you can share or a
recent funny thing that happened that you can like throw
in there, or a tattoo that you think is really interesting,
like things like that that make you stand out, but
things like you know, music and food and travel like yes, sweetie, yes, okay. Um,
(37:20):
so you know, be specific, be positive, and then you know,
be engaged the whole ghosting and stuff I see on there.
But really that app is a microcosm for real friendship.
Do you show up, do you follow up? Are you positive?
I mean it's the same things, or are you just
going to be transactional? You want somebody to hang out with,
but you are not really in a place where you
want to show up and listen and give so, you know.
(37:41):
So it's it's kind of a microcosm for how you
behave an approach friendship in real life. I've I've I've
noticed m that's a really really interesting observation. Um My mom,
growing up, she would always tell me, you know, ZERI,
every friend doesn't have to play every role. Every friend
isn't for everything right, and growing up I would always
hear it and not really think too hard on it. Now,
in my older age, I really appreciate it and think
(38:02):
it's true because you know, I used to think that
each friend had to be my ind all, be all
and vice versa, right, but it was it was almost like, Okay,
this person is in this category, this person, this person
is in that category. I just want to, you know,
have a bit crazy time. I might call up a
couple of the homies that otherwise are not going to
be the person to like, you know, talk me down
(38:22):
when I'm spiraling. And then I do have a few
of those friends who are the catch alls, and I
am that for them. Um. So I'm curious to know
what you encourage your clients to keep in mind when
it comes to, I hate to say, categorizing their friendships,
but you know, just figuring out where everybody lands when
it comes to different friendships for different seasons or for
(38:43):
different reasons. What are your thoughts. Yeah, I know some
people have a different take on that, but I think
exactly what you just shared is really helpful in terms
of managing expectations, because I've seen the opposite happen where
we're expecting one person to be all the things and
then we get disappointed and it's just like, I mean,
can one person even be all the things? Even if
you get married, can your spouse be all the things?
And so I think even having an approach of you know, Okay,
(39:05):
she's just like my fun buddy. Now maybe after hanging
out long enough, she you know, you notice that she
has the capacity for you to go there. Okay, maybe
I can read, categorize or redefine this. But you know,
if I allow somebody to just be my hangout buddy
but not necessarily my you know, emotional pick me up buddy,
I'll be less devastated if she can't support me in
that way, because that's that's all she can offer right now.
(39:26):
And that's okay. And for somebody, you're just their hangout
buddy and they feel like they can't go deep with you,
and that's and it's okay. And so I think it's
a good approach to help manage expectations, to help keep
your community strong, to allow people to shine in their strengths.
Um I think is a good approach to having friends
in kind of different boxes. We talk about this with
(39:48):
romantic relationships all of the time, toxic versus healthy. I
don't think we talked about it enough when it comes
to friendship. What is the makings of a toxic versus
a healthy friendship? What are the signs if we need
to walk away from a friend and then how do
we do that breakup? Do we go, do we have
a sit down? Do we have to meet him in person?
Like it was, you know, like it's a FUTURECT like
what are the rules there? Yeah? Oh my gosh, so
(40:09):
there's so much there, you know. The simplest way I'll
say is, first I was I always like to get
clear on, you know, a toxic friend versus a really
difficult friend, because I know that's like a hot trendy phrase.
You know, she's difficult and we're like, oh no, I
can't deal with that toxic energy. And it's like, well,
you know, is she toxic as in like toxins poisonous
or is it really obnoxious that she takes forever to
(40:30):
text you back and that's just like so annoying, you know,
Or does she tend to talk about herself a lot
and it's annoying. But when you bring her back and
you're like, girl, okay, back to me, then she does it,
you know. And so you know, how how are we balancing,
you know, being graceful with each other's flaws, being verbal
about our boundaries because a lot of us will not
do that, especially as women. And then we simultaneously penalize
(40:53):
her for something she didn't even know was a crime,
and so I'm not going to tell her, but I'm
going to hold it against her and tell everybody else us.
So does she even get a chance for self correction
before you dismissed her as being problematic? Um? And then
you know, testing her capacity for can she self correct?
Is she humble in that way or is she not
willing to do that? Because that's what matters. But I'm
(41:14):
seeing way too many female friendships and prematurely because we
don't want to do that and it's just easier to
fade out. But I'm not going to tell her why,
and then it's leaving a lot of us with this
emotional baggage as we go and make new friends. I mean,
I've I've coach women who are, you know, mid forties
who are still referring to being ghosted twenty years ago
and thinking that that's impacting like what's going on right now,
and it probably is, which means we've got to do
(41:35):
better with releasing friendships because we're leaving each other with
complexes and it just goes round and round. So you know,
if you have a friend who is manipulative or who's
guilty you or who's very judgmental. I mean to the
point where you feel like you have to like hide
information because she's gonna, you know, disapprove of your choices,
and you feel like you have to shrink yourself. I
mean anything where you feel like you can't show up
as your your real self because this person's um bringing
(42:00):
like an energy that suppresses that is something to look at. Um.
I also believe that, you know, there's different ideas of toxic,
because what's toxic to you may not be to somebody else.
Now know, some obvious things like she's you know, cursing
you out or playing games and things like that. Sure
she's lying, and sure, you know, universally not acceptable, but
maybe there are certain limitations you have and she keeps
(42:23):
pressing against them. Maybe unknowingly it's toxic that situation for you.
For somebody else, the way that she operates is just fine,
and they have a rhythm and they have an understanding
and it works for them, you know, And so you know,
there's some of it that's a little bit relative as well.
But if you think you have a friend who's toxic
without a doubt, and you're like I cannot invest in
this anymore. I one do not ghost. I'll say that
(42:46):
all day long. And to me, ghosting means that one
person cuts off communication without an explanation and the other
person still wanted to be involved. Now there's like a
mutual fading out, which we've all done, Like you hang
out a little us and then you care a little
less and then like it doesn't have legs anymore, and
both people signed up for that. There's an understanding. It
(43:08):
just is what it is. As a matter of fact.
Research tells us. I know, I'm a nerd for like
research tells us, But other research research tells us that,
you know, we replaced half of our friends every seven years,
and so to some extent, it's to be expected that
there will be maybe these fade outs as we you know,
get a new job, we adopt some new beliefs and mindset.
(43:30):
That's going to happen. There's going to be some natural
pruning that takes place. Um, But if it's a situation
where you want out and the other person doesn't know
or they don't share those feelings, it does require giving
them the dignity of of letting them know I'm not
gonna be seeing you anymore, and so you know, I
think that you should do that and whatever mode is
most natural to you too. If you guys normally meet
(43:51):
in person, it makes sense to meet in person. I
can't break up with a meet in person friend on
text or a texting friend on email, you know. And
so a little bit of it has to congruent with
how y'all naturally communicate. Unless you've identified some things in
her that says you know, it might be best to
do this in the email because of how I know
she reacts things like that, but you have to make
it known however you were at that. I think the
(44:13):
emphasis should be on what you want and not what
she lacks. So instead of so, instead of you know what,
you're just to this and this and this, and I
just think it's too much or you're not this enough,
and I just can't deal with that anymore. All of
that is rooted in her uh shortcomings, instead of you know,
that same thing might be true, but instead of you
(44:35):
know what, I'm really looking for more of X y
Z right now, and I just don't think I get
that here and it's not personal, but I just think
I have to go and pursue that right now, or
prioritize that right now. It's about what you want. It's
not about how she's to this and to that, because
it's all relative at the end of the day. And
so as long as you can kind of remember that
language around the conversation. Yes, it's uncomfortable. No, you're not
(44:57):
doing anybody favors by keeping it to yourself, because I
hear a lot of that, like, well, I don't want
to make her feel weird, so I'm not going to
let her know I'm done being friends. Yes, it's uncomfortable.
That's what big girls do. You know. It doesn't have
to be a big formal thing. It can be direct,
it can be compassionate. You give her a chance to
say her side too. That's why you know, sometimes texts
feel unfair because you've made the decision, but it's a
(45:18):
one way dialogue and you're saying, I'm reporting this information
to you, but you don't get to respond. She's going
to have an emotional reaction. It's news to her, but
you've been thinking about it, but it's new information for her.
And then to stick to it when you're done, because
a lot of us undo it because we feel bad
or we miss her. She's our friend for a reason,
we miss her, and we go back. So then kind
(45:38):
of sticking with what you said, UM, to make the
message clear and you know, releasing their friendship with as
much grace as possible. Really great tips as far as
like gently coming out of a thing that you don't
want to be in. I love that emphasis on what
you want or need as opposed to, you know, having
someone leave with all of this bad energy where you
just so often the laundry with the issues they have
(45:59):
and you opinion. UM. I hear women say We've all
heard women say um at some at certain points. Maybe
you've been the woman who said, I just don't get
along with other women. I'm just more of like I
like to hang with the boys, like I don't know girls.
It's just so I'm curious to know, what do you
think when you hear that? When you hear women say it,
(46:20):
what comes to mind? Have you had clients say it?
What do you think they really mean by that? Is
it fair to say it? I mean sometimes women we
can get petty. They can get petty too, So I
think there's two sides to every coin. But what what
are your thoughts on that? That dynamic. First, I'll say, unfortunately,
I have been that woman. It was it was when
I first went to college, and I'm trying to differentiate
(46:41):
myself from other girls with the guys. But what we're
doing there is revealing internalized misogyny. Because if I'm trying
to say I'm not like other girls who are petty
and gossipy and conniving, I'm not like them. I'm different.
It's not a compliment. I mean, we're saying our entire
gender is these things things, but I'm not them, and
(47:01):
so it's problematic just to begin with, we're subscribing to
to those ideas about our own I do understand that's
probably rooted for some women and some very real experiences,
because whenever I say that, they're sure to come for
me in the comments with but you don't understand what
women have done to me. I'm sure that is true.
I am sorry that that's when your experience. But anything
that we're walking away from and dismissing the entire group
(47:23):
as a problem because of our experience with one would
be a problem just in any other arena. I think
it's interesting that you never hear men do that. That's
how I know that it's like a misogynistic thing. You
don't hear men like, oh I can't do guys. It's crazy,
you know. I recently saw a TikTok where a girl said,
you know what, ladies, if you, you know, cut off
other women and you're doing this and that it doesn't
(47:44):
make you, you you know, be, it makes you. It means
that you're doing something right. So if you have no
female friends, you're doing something right. And so many women
tag me and I just was like, I have to
digest that. But it was sad that we're sending this
message to a whole group of young women that assign
you're on track is your own don't like you? And
I just I just don't understand that. Um I so
(48:05):
so I try to account for I know it's rooted
in a very real experience. Um but my biggest AHA
moment in the past year is I wonder how much
of it is because we see ourselves with each other.
If I if I see a group of women, I
am suddenly confronted with my ideas of femininity and and
womanhood and confidence. I see myself in you. And so
(48:26):
if I'm not sure about how feminine I think I
am if I'm pretty enough, smart enough, if I'm not
sure about those things, it's hard for me to be
around you because you are a reminder of what I
don't have. It is a mirror, but that's for any group.
As a black person, when I go into a group
of all black people, I'm suddenly aware of certain things,
and so I'm just I'm wondering how much of it
(48:46):
is our ideas of womanhood and being confronted with them
among other women. It's just just a thought of of
why it's so intense. But I don't think that jealousy
and pettiness is exclusive to men. That's people. And if
you say, oh, well, women have let me down, that's
what people do, is we disappoint each other. That's what
we do. But since a lot of our social interactions,
(49:09):
even when we're younger, are gendered girls over here, boys
over here, it probably is a higher probability that you
had women screw you over because that's who you've been
around your entire life, and so it's just some things
to kind of consider. But I honor those women's experiences.
I do think it's dangerous to dismiss an entire group
because of those experiences. Yeah, so so true. Spot out
(49:30):
it and I completely agree with what you were saying
around you know, sometimes it's our insecurities, right, it's as
projecting and when we are faced with people who technically
we could be compared to, sometimes it's our internal monologue.
It's our dialogue with ourselves doing the comparing and feeling
threatened or feeling less than or too much. Um. And
so it's just uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable to be around people who,
(49:52):
for whatever reason make us, UM think a little harder
about who we are, how we're showing up and maybe
how we're failing. Um. If that's the headspace that we're
in when we're in those in those social groups. Um, okay,
I know we were in the home stretch here. We're
wrapping up one question that I just want your personal answer.
You're you're married, right, okay? Um. So the idea of
(50:13):
a partner as a best friend as your your ind all,
bey all, we touched on it a little bit earlier.
Do you subscribe to that notion? Um? Is it to
each his own when you're talking to each her own,
when you're talking to your clients? Um? What do you
feel about that idea that we're all out here just
looking for that one person, and once our partners our
best friend, everyone else's you know, a lovely compliment to
(50:34):
our our northern star. Right. Yeah, gosh, you were like
summing up the idea that I know a lot of
women have. If there's a woman who's like, no, you
don't understand, my husband's my best friend, I think that's beautiful.
Like that's great, that is great. Um, I do think
we set ourselves up for disappointment if the expectation going
into relationships is that like, Okay, you should be my person,
(50:56):
because if we're being totally real, you're not going to
be his person for all the things he needs people
to supplement what you offer him. You're not replaceable, but
you're also not Alpha and Omega. And there's other people,
you know who who satisfy him, you know, in different
ways in terms of intellectual needs or sports needs or
whatever it is. And let him go do his thing
and come back, you know, guy friends or co workers,
(51:17):
and so he has this nice collective of offerings that
fill him up. And so with the whole idea the
best friend, you know, I've had that, and I think
that's great. Um, But for fort of adults who say
they do not have the best friend. You know, the
idea really is to think about what you need. You
need to be seen, you need laughter in your life,
you need to feel like you have somebody you can
(51:38):
you can talk to. Do you have to get all
those things from one person? No, but a lot of
us obsess over that. When you take an aerial view
of your community, are you getting that collectively? Like do
you have somebody you could call? Do you have people
who do make you laugh? Do you have friends who
would come help you move? If so, you've got everything
you need. It's just spread amongst the community. And so,
(51:59):
you know, I think women need to be careful when they,
you know, make the their husband everything. And I think
you need your girls, and we offer something that supplements
and compliments that relationship. UM. So it's just something to
keep in mind if people decide, you know what, I
think I want a friendship coach. I think I'm ready
for the next step. Um, how will it? How do
we know when we might benefit from the services of
(52:22):
someone like you? Um? And then also what services exactly
do you offer? Tell us all the things? How do
we get You know, people don't really ask that about, like,
how do I know I need a coach? People do
not ask often enough, you know. I think the biggest
misconception about friendship coaching is we picture the socially awkward
wallflower hiring a coach teach me how to talk to
people now, while she's certainly on the docket, Okay, while
(52:44):
she's certainly there. I think people be surprised to learn
that most of the women I work with are high achieving,
um really clever, funny, smart, attractive whatever that looks like women.
And I don't know if it's because they approach everything
else in their lives very strategically, so they want to
figure this out. But it's not that they're socially inept.
(53:06):
Maybe they moved to a new city and they're like, Okay,
normally I'm miss network, but how do I get plugged
in here? Or it's because they've been with a guy
for a really long time and now they've broken up
and they have to start from scratch. Or it's because
they want to have a really hard conversation with a
friend and they're trying to make a big decision and
they want an objective voice to help them work through
what life on the other side of this decision is
(53:28):
going to look like and am I ready to do it?
And so I think it's interesting to first kind of
dismiss the idea of what a woman who needs a
coach would look like, and to ask ourselves, am I
kind of struggling to make new friends even though I've
tried all the things? Um do I keep having this
repeated cycle with a certain friend? Um Do? I have
lots of friends, but deep down I don't really feel
connected to any of them. And I don't know if
(53:48):
I should kind of keep this up and we're all
doing this, or if I should like push for something more.
Those would be signs that maybe you need to talk to,
you know, a coach about it and work it out,
because I know sometimes we talk to our part partner
and they don't get it or they minimize it with like,
oh well if she gets on your nerves, stopped talking
to her and you're like, okay, well it's it's more complicated, Okay, right,
you know that, Yeah, exactly. They can't relate. Our parents
(54:12):
are far removed from it, and then sometimes it's complicated
to talk to your friends about your friends. Do I
look like I'm gossiping or maybe my friends will want
to have an issue with or you know, is this
a safe space? And so to have somebody who you
can just say all the things and they're giving you
objective insight. My job is not to give you advice.
You know a lot of women will say like, you
know what you know, do I break up with her
(54:32):
or not? And I'm like, Okay, I have a couple
of questions for you, and by the end you know
exactly what you need to do. But that's not my job.
But you've been asked questions you have never considered before
that give you some direction. Um and so like if
that's something that you know, woman's listening and she's like yes,
all those things. You know, everything lives at Better Female
Friendships dot com. That's where they can, you know, find
(54:53):
out more about the podcast. My podcast is called the
friend Forward Podcast. Sign up for coaching or even come
to you know an event that we're are starting up
again and so we try to be really intentional about
teaching really um strategic, high achieving women how to have
better relationships with other women in their lives. That's what
it's all about. Well, that is certainly our audience so
I love to hear that, Danielle, where you based, just
(55:14):
out of curiosity, Tampa, Florida. You're in Tampa, Florida. Okay, Okay?
Then UM, to wrap things up, we have a party trip,
which is our last segment and it's just super rapid
fire for this week's party trick, I'd love if you
could give us three signs we should end a friendship. Okay.
Sign number one. She embarrasses you in front of other
(55:36):
people intentionally never okay UM. Signed number two, she makes
you feel guilty about your decisions, who you date, where
you go, with job you take, and shows her disapproval
of your life choices. UM, And I guess signed number
three would be UM not being happy for you because
your friends should feel like your success was their own. UM,
(55:58):
so that would be problematic as well. Hey man, well
that's a party true heard. Thank you so much for
your time, your expertise. You guys, check her out if
you're into UM, the idea of friendship coaching, want to
learn more about what she does, or following social right.
There's so many gyms that you're dropping there too, So
thank you so much for sharing that with our audience today.
Thank you for having me happy bet all right, thank
(56:22):
you again Danielle for joining me on Hot Happy Mess today.
Make sure you guys check out her services and remember
that there is no shame in asking for help, asking
for community, reaching out for friendship. Okay, so before I
head out, I want to share a quick listener review
at k Dollinger says Absolute Vibe. This is ten percent
(56:42):
a my new favorite podcast between Zuri and her guests.
There are so many one liners that really make you
open your eyes. Peace within yourself shouldn't be foreign. My
word of the year is nourished, whether it is my mind, body, soul,
or those around me. Highly all caps recommend. Love that review.
I love you for writing it. Thank you so much, um,
(57:03):
and I'm glad you're enjoying the podcast. If you're listening,
I haven't left a review yet, Please do on Apple
Podcasts or Spotify and leave a five star rating so
I know it's real and we can keep this good
content coming to you. If you think there's someone who
might enjoy this episode, this friendship chat, go ahead and
share it with them and tag me on social. If
(57:25):
you are listening at Hot Happy Mess at Zuri Hall
and we'll repost you okay, okay uh. Stay tuned for
more episodes coming every Wednesday. I'll see you on the Graham.
I'm about to get on TikTok oh good and in
the meantime, be blessed, be healthy, be well. I am
sending you love and light and I'll talk to you later.
Bye bye bye
Hot, Happy Mess. Celebrate your magic in the middle of
life's messes. Happy. I'm Zeri Hall and this is Hot
Happy Mass Shoot. Hello, Hello, Happy Wednesday, babes. What's up.
(00:29):
I'm Zeri Hall, this is Hot, Happy Mess, and producer
Star told me to do a British accent. As soon
as I did it, it just felt super Australian. So, um,
I'm just going to apologize and to say welcome back
to the podcast. If you're listening to this on the
day that it uploads, it's probably Wednesday, um, but I'll
be honest, that means it's today because I was super
(00:50):
late recording my host reads today because it has been
a week y'all. I am in Las Vegas. I just
wrapped filming my fourth season with America Ninja Warrior. Woo Woo,
shout out, coming to TV screen on NBC near you
this summer. I still remember when I was a rookie
and I was so excited to be on the show
(01:11):
and it was like the biggest production I've been in
at that point in my life, and it was just
so exciting and it's still exciting, and it's changed my
life in such amazing ways. And oh my goodness, these
stories that we're telling, these ninjas who you're going to
get to know. Like, if you've never watched the show,
I truly recommend you check it out. Yes, this is
a shameless plug, but also because it's so much more
(01:34):
than athleticism, and you know, Ninja is doing amazing things
on the course, which they totally are. Um, but these
are really people who are working their butts off all
year round, going through a lot of difficulties and trials
and tribulations. I mean, you hear some really sad and
heartbreaking stories, but then you're really encouraged and feel a
(01:55):
little bit stronger to tackle, you know, the day to
day obstacles and hardship and challenges of your own life
when you see what they've overcome to just get to
the start line. I mean I have cried so many
tears in the last four seasons, but quite a few
this year, especially UM and happy tears, sad tears, proud tears,
(02:16):
all the tears. Um. But if you want to shed
some tears with me or not, if you just want
to watch some amazing ninjas do some cool stuff, then
check it out. It's coming to NBC this summer. American
Ninja Warrior, if you hear a slight list, it's because
good God, you guys, My invisil Ligne is back. Like
I lost it for six months, then I found it again.
(02:37):
They're back in I just one day these teeth are
going to get together, but probably no time soon because
I just cannot get well. It's not that I can't
be consistent. I just keep losing the trays and like
accidentally throwing them away inconsistent until they get tossed. So anyways,
like I said Ninja on NBC, this summer which means
summer is right around the corner, and your girl cannot
(02:58):
wait to catch a flight or two or five because
I need a vacation. I'm going to Europe and that's
my playground in June. I'm really excited. Stay tuned. I've
got some fun announcements coming up. But I'll be in
the French Riviera. Uh, gonna spend a little time in London. Um,
(03:20):
maybe a little Paris action. I don't know. That's kind
of the fun of it, is just going where the
wind blows me and leaving some room for the magic
to happen, whatever that is. But I'm excited for that vacation.
I'm curious to know and y'all got any summer lands?
What you up to do? When are you gonna gross
slide of my d M s? And tell me on
Instagram at Zuri hall Um. Also, you know, we've been
(03:43):
asking for the last few weeks to have listeners join
me on the show, and this is the last week
that we're accepting submissions for a very special episode where
I want to highlight you and your stories, have conversations
with you, get to know you. So, if you want
to chat with me about self of self care, love, dating,
OMG stories, w t F stories, your favorite episodes, whatever,
(04:05):
send us an email hello at hot happy mess dot com,
subject line chat with z and let me know why
you want to come on the show. All right, For
today's episode, we've heard of life coaches, budget coaches, dating coaches,
a divorce coach. How about a friendship coach? Yes? You
heard me right, Today's episode is all about friendship, How
(04:27):
to make friends as an adult. What are the signs
of a healthy or a toxic friendship? And what are
some of our biggest quote unquote female friendships stereotypes. You
are going to hear a lot of that in this episode.
I think this is so important because, especially the older
you get, I have found in my personal experience it's
even harder to make friends, you know, I saw. I
(04:49):
mean that was like, yo, making adult friendships is harder
than dating. We're finding the one, and sometimes I think
so because at this point in our life, a lot
of people are prioritizing finding the one, or they've already
found that person and they're building a life with them,
and so, you know, sometimes the friendships kind of take
second or third or whatever priority fair enough and understandably,
(05:10):
but that means trying to convince someone to prioritize you
when you're new on the scene becomes harder to do
because people have kids, they have jobs, they have lives.
And then also, where the hell are you finding all
these people? Campus was like the last prime opportunity to
just stumble into a bunch of people who are similar
in age, like minded, kind of in the same life
(05:34):
stage as you. And now you're just out in the world,
fending for yourself, running into random people and hoping that
two of you like each other. Not to sound morbid,
I'm sorry that was a bit of a downer, but
if that's how you feel fear not, don't go down.
I got you, girl, I got you. She's going to
be talking about cultivating community as it relates to new moms,
(05:56):
friends for different seasons and even low maintenance French ships. Right,
Sometimes you need the friends or the real ones who
get it and you extend that energy in the reverse
of you get it, you know, And I don't think
that's a bad thing. Sometimes that's exactly what you need.
So whatever type of friendship you're looking for, whatever type
of friendships you have, we're getting into the nitty gritty
(06:18):
before we dive in really quickly. I just want to say,
like I told you, it's been. It's hard. It's up
and down making friendships in your adult life. You know,
I have tried. I tried the friendship app. I only
went on one friend date. This was the years and
years ago, and then I just never got back on it.
I don't know. It was a lot of effort in
addition to actually being on dating apps, and like I said,
(06:39):
trying to you know, focus on that too. But one
of my best friends, like ever ever in life, Travasha,
I kind of did I slide in her d M.
I think we we became Twitter buddies because I followed
her on Twitter first, for sure, I think I probably
I think I did d M her first and I I
was like, Hey, I'm new in town. Do you want
to hang? Because she seemed cute and bubbly and fun
(06:59):
and how a fun personality. And I had just moved
to Indianapolis. It was my first job after college. And
I'm so glad I slid in those d m s
because she is a lifelong friend. She's like a sister
to me at this point. We're so close. I love
her dearly. It never would have happened had I not
taken that, not even risk. It was so chill, but
that very easy shooting of a shot and just saying, Hey,
(07:21):
I'm new in town and you seem cool. Do you
want to grab a drink or do you want to hang?
And she was like sure, absolutely, And she's kept that
same energy for the last decade plus of our friendship.
We actually just got back from the Lovers and Friends
festival in Vegas. Two of my best friends came out,
Um Ashley, who you all know from the group chat,
and Trevasho who you know from the group chat, and
then a bunch of other awesome ladies. We got a
(07:42):
v I P. Cabanna lived our best life to Neo
when Sierra and um who else was there? I think
Mario was there. I can't remember. I was gone by
that point because I was filming Ninja Warrior, genuine, John
b Usher, Ludicrous, all the people. It was your best
y two K dream Okay, and I got to create
(08:02):
those memories with some of my besties because you know,
we got out there and made these friendships happen all
those years ago. So if you want to make those
friendships happen in your life, if you've already got those
friendships and you want to learn how to maintain them,
if somebody is getting on your last nerves or you
think you've outgrowing the friendship, then this is the episode
for you. All Right, all right, it's time for our expert.
(08:23):
She is absolutely amazing, such fun energy. Should I slid
in your d MS, Danielle, I think I'm going to
we should be friends because I absolutely love this episode.
So without further ado, here's Danielle. Okay, here she is
Danielle Jackson. She's a certified friendship coach in National Speaker.
She's dedicated to teaching women how to create and maintain
(08:44):
meaningful female friendships. It's an art, y'all. She's here to
teach us it. She's been featuring NBC News for her expertise,
and her advice has been quoted in several other media outlets,
including Psychology Today, Well and Good at the Tampa Bay Times,
and Insider. Danielle is a member of the American Sociological Association,
and she studies the latest research in the areas of
(09:05):
social science to create practical ways for women to better
understand each other when operating in positions of leadership, friendship,
and mentorship. Wow. Well, this is the conversation that some
of us might not have known we needed, but we needed. Okay,
so I'm here to tell folks that we need to
figure this out. I'm so glad that you're here to
help us with it. Welcome, Thank you for having me.
(09:27):
This is my absolute favorite thing to discuss, so I'm
excited to jump in. Let's go ahead and do that.
First of all, let's get to know you a little bit.
Talk to me about your background. You're a mother, a wife,
a former high school teacher. You have your own pr agency,
so you've got a lot of stones in the fire. Yeah,
a lot going on. It's funny because I always joke
when people are like, oh, how did you become a
friendship coach, I'm like, you know, it certainly wasn't on
(09:48):
my vision board when I was eight, you know, be
a friendship coach, but I fell into it. I was
actually a high school English teacher for about six years,
teaching high school seniors, and during that time, you know,
you hear their conversations between classes. They're coming up to
me after class with their you know, friendship drama, you know,
and so I would coach them through it for like
six years and didn't realize at the time that's what
(10:09):
I was doing. And then when I left the classroom
to get into PR I thought foolish, like, I'm leaving
this behind. I'm leaving the drama behind because teenagers. But
little did I know that grown folks have their issues too,
and caring all into adulthood, right, we cannot get it together.
So that's when I realized, oh, this is something at
(10:29):
every stage of womanhood. We're trying to figure out how
do I navigate relationships with other women? And so when
I realized, you know, if you're having an issue with
your business, you'll hire a business coach. You're having issues
in your marriage, you'll get a counselor why is it
that with friendship we feel like it's something you should
have figured out and you can't get support. And so
I kind of went down the rabbit hole, and over
the past four years I've been, you know, serving as
(10:49):
a women's friendship coach, and so far it's been a
really fun journey. Yeah. I think it's so fascinating and
I love what you brought up, that point of being
intentional with our friendships the same way we are with
our romantic relationships or our employee employer dynamics, Like we're
very um, methodical and present when it comes to Okay,
how can I be a better employee, how can I
(11:10):
climb the corporate ladder? But cultivating meaningful friendships, particularly after
the pandemic, it we realized how important that is. It's
it's so um it's so overlooked sometimes and yet so
crucial to our mental health and mental wellness. I love
that you've got this coaching program we'll talk about later,
just kind of helping adults master platonic relationships and the
(11:32):
fact that the strategies you give are tangible rights, not
just like open up like ghost say how to fact people.
It's specifically like how do we rekindle an old friendship?
How do I create a new deep friendship? Making friends
in general? So I think it's important. I love that
you're doing it. Um, what was that day one journey?
Even like like okay, I want to be a friendship coach.
(11:54):
Was there anyone on this path before you? Because I've
not heard of this job title, but I kind of
love it. Yeah, to my knowledge, I saw some psychologists
who would who would sandwich it in their offerings like,
oh I can help you with this this, this is
this friendship. But as far as you know, I like
to stay in my lane. I'm a coach, not a therapist. However,
for women who are ready to learn what to do
just exactly as you described, and they don't want to
(12:15):
just process their feelings are like okay, great, I'm ready
to reach out to that friend or I think I
want to end this friendship? What do I do? That's
where I would come in. And so it's been really
cool to give women like practical steps, you know, TikTok.
My signature thing on my video is to give homework
at the end of the video, and and women are like,
I've screenshot at all your homework, you know, And so
it's something like, let's let's get to work because too
(12:36):
much of the conversation is kind of fluffy or maybe
high level, but when it comes to it applying it
in your day to day, it's like, what does that
look like? And so that's where I come in. Well,
the numbers speak for themselves. You've got I think at
last count, about a hundred ninety thousand followers on TikTok.
So you're given the goods there. People are clearly eating
it up. One what is your TikTok user name if
people want to go there and find that. Yeah, it's
(12:57):
the Friendship Expert, which is I just, you know, like
everybody else, I hopped on as an adult, you know,
shyly during the pandemic when you're like, oh, this is
for kids, but I'm gonna make an account and hide
behind here and then out of boredom, I really like
leaned in. And it's been I mean great, It's led
to so many opportunities UM that I would only dream of. UM.
As a matter of fact, a couple of months ago,
(13:17):
I signed a big book deal, and they told me
that having that TikTok was was one of the things
that kind of sold them, was to be able to
see other people buying in, to see tangible steps, and
so I'm really excited for that. So it's just been
a lot of cool things that is amazing. And congratulations
on the book deal. No easy feet, um, and wait,
hold on the notes that producer star told me it
(13:38):
was a six big book deal. It was. No, it's exactly.
It's it's a blessing, you know, to go from a
high school teacher who's waitressing on summer's off to something
that was not really a thing, like if you google
friendship coaching is I mean, really is a dream. It's
very cool and I'm so appreciative. Well, congratulations, it is
so deserved. Let's talk about friendship amongst women. Um, what
(14:02):
do you think is the most special thing about the
bond we have with our sisters? Right? Um? And also
what is the impact that female friendship has on our mental, emotional,
and even maybe physical health? Yeah yeah, you know, Uh,
it's nice to go through this world with somebody who
has that shared experience. So whatever that looks like and
for women, you know, especially in a patriarchal society, it's
(14:24):
nice to look at another woman, to have that look
across the room and you're just like a girl, I know,
did you see that? I know, you know, and yeah,
I saw it right, So it's nice to to have that. Um.
You know, there's research that shows that, you know, when
women are stressed, we're familiar with fight or flight. But
when they redid that study with more women, they found
that we have a higher range of responses to stress,
(14:45):
and one of them is called tend or befriend. So
when we're stressed, we'll either go and reach out to
younger people we feel are more vulnerable to protect, or
we'll go and seek out the company of other women,
at which time our oxytocin levels are released. And that
is the thing that quite live really decrease his stress.
So I always laugh when you know a boyfriend or
husband's like, oh, what are you gonna go talk to
your friends about it? I'm like, that's exactly what I'm
(15:07):
gonna do. Not kill you right now. Yeah, And so
it's really cool to see how even in the body
and the brain, things happen when we are having conversations
with other women. Is is very important. Um, you know,
they're telling us that the single greatest factor on your
overall health and well being is not your income, it's
not your marital status, it's the quality of your relationships.
(15:29):
Which is so funny to me when I see there's
so much emphasis right on you know, hustle culture and
you know, grinding in your job and finding the one.
I mean, all those things are nice, But when we
see bodies of research saying the same thing about the
thing that's going to help your mental and physical health
is really your friendships, I mean, it's hard to look away. Yeah,
(15:50):
that those are really good points, and especially this idea
of adult friendships and how important it is to have
those people that you go to win maybe the other
pillars of your first shaking a little bit. I love
that you brought up, um, you know, hustle culture, because
this podcast, my entire vision for it was best life
minus the burnout. I spent all of my twenties just
(16:11):
go go go grinding, grinding, grinding tons of achievements. Like
loved it in those moments, but afterwards I would come
home to an empty house or less than stellar you know,
mental wellness or just a sense of peace. Um, and
I realized that I was not cultivating or maintaining my
friendships or even my relationships with my family. Yes, everyone
(16:31):
was technically there. Yes, if I picked up the phone
and call, they would answer or vice versa. But I
hadn't thought about how do I continue to strengthen and
deepen these bonds, how do I challenge us to grow
together in friendship and partnership. It was just kind of like,
you're my friend now, and I'll see it brunch, right,
And it was. It was kind of superficial at a
(16:52):
certain point, even when some of my best friends and
and we pivoted and worked to really strengthen those bonds
in recent years. Um. But I also have noticed that
the older I get, the more difficult it is to
make new friends. Like I've still got all my day ones,
like my best friends Tim plus years, right, I've got
four or five I can kind of want to. So
(17:13):
I'm really proud of that. But then I also sit
and think, wait, so I'm clearly a good friend. Why
the hell is it sound hard to make new friends
and keep them when we're older? Why why is that?
Do you have an answer? Yeah, you know that actually
starts to happen around the age of twenty five, when
our social circle shrinks. And a lot of uh, that
makes sense because that's when we're coming out of college,
coming into our own and we shift our priority to
(17:35):
building family ties to advancing in our careers. We're no
longer in a space that's saturated with our our peers
and we're out here on our own. We gotta figure
it out. And so that's when we start to notice, Wait,
where where did my people go? And we never really
formally learned how to do this? Um And so it
doesn't surprise me that, like once we get upper twenties thirties,
we're struggling with how do I make new friends? UM.
(17:56):
I think a lot of people also struggle because they'll think, Okay,
I think I'm charismatic, I'm until legent. Why is this
a struggle for me? But it's just generally, you know,
kind of difficult. Work from home doesn't make it much better.
People are are moving because they can. They're remote now,
um and and things like that. They have taken away
our you know, the backdrop of a workplace. And so
that used to be a space where we were meeting
(18:17):
people and making connections, so we really are kind of
seemingly out here on our own. Um. I think it's
interesting to hear you talk about, you know, your friendship
history and your status and what you've got going on,
and and I'm not surprised to hear about how it's
something you kind of noticed along the way, because we
do tend to talk about friendship like it's a luxury,
and like you mentioned brunch, like you need some girls
(18:37):
to go to brunch with, and you know, when we're
talked to, you know, value romantic partnerships and and find
your man, find somebody to be with and and to
advance in our careers. We almost take advantage of the
friends that we have because we know they'll be there,
so we'll tend to them when we get to that
because I gotta focus over here. But then sure enough,
as you know, we look up when all that that
stuff is settled and we're like, where did my where?
(18:59):
And my girl wild scale because it requires the same
level of love and attention. So when it comes to
making new friends, I have like all these strategies, but
first I always like to say to to start with
the circle you already have because a lot of times
when we say, oh, Daniel, I want to make new friends,
I think we're using that's anonymously for I want to
meet new people, and the two are not the same.
You know, making friends refers to the art of cultivating
(19:22):
something meaningful with another person, and who says that has
to start from scratch. A lot of us have some
people in our network loosely who would be cool, but
we've dismissed them for whatever reason. They're too young, too old,
too weird, not weird enough, you know. We're just like,
I don't know, she's like my vibe. But a lot
of us have a good little mix if we really
were to pay attention and don't necessarily have to start
(19:42):
from scratch. So sometimes it starts there. Yeah, okay, Well,
I'm excited to dig into the nitty gritty of how
to cultivate these friendships because according to the Census, the
average number of times a person moves in their life
is about eleven point seven times. I have moved to
at least six different cities, like five different states since
high school, right, and I'm early thirties at this point.
(20:04):
Some of my friends have moved ten to fifteen times domestically, internationally,
and it's such, um, it's such a massive act of
emotional and mental labor to kind of start over again. Period.
Forget about the house, the apartment, the job situation. Now
we've got to find these friends. So I'm excited for
you to share that knowledge with people who may be
(20:25):
moving and starting fresh, or may just be looking up
at the world around them and deciding I kind of
wanna you know, and use this with some more life
and some more deaf. Um. So, how do you suggest
we make friends as an adult? What are the first steps?
Where do we find our people? Yeah? So the first thing,
at the risk of sounding like a life coach, is
to make sure you've got your mind right because a
(20:45):
lot of people stopped themselves because they believe things that
are not true, and it um indirectly impacts the way
that you engage with people. So I hear a lot
of people say like, I just feel like I'm too late,
you know, like I'm in my thirties, can I really
make friends? And so if you believe it's too late,
you're not engaging the way you should. Or we feel like, oh,
I'm too insert perceived inadequacy here, I'm too shy I'm
too introverted, I'm to whatever, And so we feel like
(21:08):
we're somehow um less capable because of something we think
is wrong with us. So we have a lot of
different things going on. But once we get past that, UM,
a couple of easy ones I like to to suggest
that you can start right away is to integrate more
routine into your day or your week. So I know
that's very unsexy, but we tend to meet people when
we are familiar, like we get gradually more familiar with them.
(21:29):
So if you walk your dog, try to walk your
dog about the same time every day, or at least
in the same place. If you go to UM, the
gym or a coffee shop, can you do that with
more regularity, because that's when we're making those like serendipitous,
organic kind of connections where you've seen somebody like four times,
so they're more enthused and more inclined to say like, hey,
I you know, Hey, I notice that you're doing this,
(21:51):
or hey can I borrow you know your cord or whatever?
Because you seem approachable because your face is familiar. But
we have to breed that familiarity, and that takes repetitive
shin and so the easiest thing is to start to
integrate more routine, especially for those of us who are
working from home home all day and then simultaneously wondering
how to naturally meet people. Another one is, I know
we've heard of these like meet up groups and things
(22:12):
like that, but the mistake we make there is we
go one time and then we're like, I didn't find
my people, and then right yeah, like and if I
wasn't my vibe, and we don't go back again. But
I always encourages to go at least two three times
because you engage differently when you know you're coming back.
So if I am going one time to check it out,
I'm operating in the role of critic, and I'm seeing
(22:34):
if people seem cool, I don't know, I don't really engage,
and I'm like, I wasn't feeling it and I leave.
But if I know I've made myself come back a
couple of times and I committed to coming every week
for a month, then it changes how I show up.
I'm making new friends by like introducing myself, or I'm
able to say, oh, hey, you know, Susie, you mentioned
your dog was sick last week. How did things go
(22:54):
with that like I have something to work with, I
have some intel I can use them build on. But
we still want to meet somebody the first time, especially women,
because we're secretly auditioning her to be our best friend
in our head. And if we notice any little thing
that doesn't check out or meet our preferences, we're done.
And so some of it is just like going past
the first impression and and staying open minded. So routine
(23:17):
the meet up groups is one and then another one
that's super easy is to you know, connect with your
super connector friends. So these are those people who are
very extroverted for some reason. They always know what's going on,
They've got people around them, you know, why not reach
out to them and say, listen, I'm trying to get
more plugged in, be intentional, and I thought of you
because you've always got something going on. Do you know
of anything around town that's worth checking out? Or you know,
(23:39):
on the on the more optimistic, and they might invite
you to be there plus one, but at least they're
going to give you recommendations. But we're so afraid to
signal our our hunger for connection because we fear looking desperate.
It's just gonna make me look clingy? What's wrong with me?
So all of us are walking around here thinking, man,
I'd like to be more connected, but I'm not gonna
say it because how would that make me luck? Mm hmmm.
(24:01):
That is so so true, so poignant, because you're right
articulating our need for connection, especially these days right there,
there have been so many headlines, particularly at the intersection
of black women and mental health and feeling alienated or
alone and sometimes the really painful and devastating um consequences
(24:22):
that come with that because we don't necessarily feel safe
um to express what we need, or we feel like
we have to always wear that cape or be strong,
silent and strong and sometimes alone um, which is a
perfect segue into loneliness, something that I think a lot
of us have, probably all of all of us, and
it is safe to say I would be willing to
(24:42):
bet we have all at some point in our lives
dealt with or felt feelings of loneliness. The pandemic obviously
exacerbated that for so many of us, and it really
altered how we interact with our friends, our family, um
and severely limited our ability to make new ones. So
you were kind of screwed if you didn't have that
friend group going into their pandemic. Um. And I'm curious
(25:02):
to know from your perspective as an expert, UM, what
do you think was the biggest way that COVID that
the the ensuing pandemic impacted friendship. Yeah. Well, you know,
like we mentioned earlier, I think a lot of it
was that organic, you know, seeing people in the elevator
or you know, being able to meet up very casually
for happy hour after work and it didn't take a
second thought. And I don't think a lot of us
(25:22):
were well practiced in how to be more intentional about it.
You know, I'm not going to see you in our
traditional way, so I don't really know how to be
friends in a new terrain. I don't know what to
do here. So I think some of us were a
little out of practice. UM. And you know, we can
zoom all day long, but that's never going to replace
you know, how our brains are wired to to be
together and see each other's faces in person and things
(25:44):
like that. Um. I think it's also a lot of
things that you know, our friend being removed and so
we've got to kind of interpret the silence and the distance,
and I saw a lot of people who you know,
thought that their friendship was over or they're thinking, oh,
I guess my friends don't care about me like I thought.
And a lot of that was because we have this
physical distance now, so we're you know, inserting our own
interpretations of what's happening your home. You're in your head
(26:06):
and you start to wonder, you know, about the state
of your friendship. Are you guys doing okay? And overthinking?
I saw that a lot, especially with women. Um some
women told me that, you know, maybe they were going
through certain things in their their lives financially with their families.
But because we don't want to burden our friends by
telling them what's going on, that actually contributes to feelings
of loneliness as well. Because your friendship remains superficial. You
(26:29):
start to tell yourself the message of like, gosh, nobody
gets what I'm going through. I'm so alone in this.
But simultaneously don't want to ask for help because I
don't want to put people out or I don't want to,
you know, for my self sufficient women. I don't want
to look like I need help, like I got this.
I don't need to ask them for help. But all
those things contribute to feeling like you're by yourself because
you don't want to let people in, when ironically, research
(26:50):
tells us that you know, helping another person makes us
feel closer to the person you know offering that help.
And so it's a lot of different factors that went
into making us feel more isolated than we already were
during the pandemic. But I think as long as we
increase our awareness about it and get intentional about getting
connected with the right people, then then we'll be better off.
(27:13):
I'm curious to know if you saw a tik tak
um that uh went viral. I don't know. They had
a lot of significant amount of numbers and it was
um a woman talking about her pandemic experience. I think
it's my tay Lizabeth. Did you see that? I did talk?
It was heartbreaking. I mean, she's tearing up and she's
talking about the fact that she realized she was a
Tier two or a Tier three friend, the fact that
(27:35):
she even labeled herself as that. I was like, damn,
because also I've been there, I'm like, oh, shoot, I
don't think I'm I don't think I'm at a tear one,
that's how this is playing out. UM. And she said
she spent a lot of the pandemic alone because she
wasn't in these pots, she didn't make the cut for
people's bubbles, and she thought that she had cultivated a
stronger community than she actually had and realized how alone
(27:57):
she was, and that broke my heart. One because it's
resident needed with me. I felt that in different ways
that necessarily in the pandemic, but just period, it's like
you don't know until you know, and you're like, oh wait,
I think I just got the memo. Wow, good to know. Um,
that's not how I saw that going. Um. But it's humbling.
And also I really respect her for opening up about
that because it's something that could easily be embarrassing, right, UM,
(28:20):
to be like, I'm the a man out, I'm the
person who didn't get picked to play in the gym class.
Whatever that is for you. UM. So I applaud her
for speaking to it. But I'm curious to know what
you thought about that, if you've felt similar sentiments expressed
in your coaching. UM, if you've ever felt that, Yeah,
you know, I I saw that video and UM, I
(28:40):
had the same response. It was a very vivid response
of oh my gosh, I almost feel her pain because
it was so raw. Um. And I think she was
putting I think she was putting word to a lot
of things people feel, but again are too scared to
stay out loud. Um. And I'm sure it resonated with
a lot of people because we're seeing, you know, studies
that show that we have more women living a own
than ever before. I mean, you can speculate to that
(29:03):
as you will, but it's probably because a lot of
us we have the access and the means, and we're
taking your time on getting married and looking at our options,
and so that looks like a lot of women living
by themselves. So I would imagine that a lot of
women who watched that video felt like she was really
speaking to their situation. And as far as the whole
like tier two, tier three friend and where we rank,
I don't think any of us have really had security
(29:24):
in that since my Space top eight and you knew
very clearly, you know, you knew very clearly if you
were like the number three friend, the number right exactly exactly.
And so it's funny because you know, research tells us
that only half of our friendships are reciprocal, and by
that I mean maybe, um, this person is my level
(29:45):
ten friend, like this is my right or die, But
in her life, I'm like a level seven And you know,
how do you respond to that information? Does it change
what you do or your approach? But you know, sometimes
it's not totally equal all the time for the duration
of our friendship, and it shifts as new people come
into her life in different priorities. And so with that
being said, you might be somebody's tier two even though
(30:06):
there you are tier one. You know, I don't know
that young lady's full situation, but I would say I
know sometimes we get caught in that whole, like, oh gosh,
I don't know if I'm anybody's number one, and we
keep from reaching out because of that. But you have
to ask for what you need. Yes, there is a
risk of rejection. Yes there's a chance she's like, I
don't have time for you, whatever, But most times it's
(30:27):
met with a warm reception or people saying, oh my gosh,
I'm so glad you reached out because I've been feeling
that way too. You know, you can't judge their situation
off of whatever Instagram posts they made and assume, Oh,
she's probably at her capacity for friends. I mean, look
at all the great things she's going on, you have
no idea what's behind that. I've worked with so many
women who are um ambitious and funny and and charismatic
(30:50):
whose Instagram you would see and think like, oh gosh,
she's got like a whole squad. Who's coming to me
because she has a squad and doesn't feel connected to
any of her friends and once real friends, you know.
So here we are kind of all doing the dance
of comparing and then judging it against our very real,
you know, in person situation and not realizing if you
want to be connected you have to reach out and
(31:11):
make it known. That's the only way to get your
needs met. And to your point about reaching out, I
love to ask for scripts, right, and no two situations
are ever the same, No two conversations opportunities for connection.
But if you had to make you know, general recommendations,
how do I approach a woman who I am curious
about exploring a friendship with without her being confused as
(31:34):
to whether or not I'm kidding. Yes, that's so funny.
More people have brought that up, like how do I
make it clear, like, girl, this is platonic. You know,
you gotta be careful. You gotta be careful. You know,
it's it's a couple of different things. If I'm meeting
a person for the very first time, I know it
sounds cliche, but it works. But compliments always work. There's
research that says ninety percent of people, UM admit that
(31:55):
a compliment feels good, but only fifty people are willing
to do it. And it's because we underestimate how well
people take it. So we all love it, but we're
scared to do it in case we make them uncomfortable.
But you know, research shows that people love it. On average,
people really like it, and so that gets people to
to kind of light up, especially with women. It's like
the easiest way to open the door to start talking
(32:15):
about something else, you know. Um So, so doing that
is something that always works. UM. Also making your intention known,
even saying like hey, I you know really like X
y Z about you and I've been looking for other
people who like that just as much as I do.
So you know, let me know if you're ever out
and about, like I'd love to get connected um or
I'm new the town and I'm trying to get more
plugged in, like to let her know I'm reaching out
because I like your vibe and I see something similar,
(32:37):
or I'm trying to get connected. Can you help me
with that? Like putting people in a position of help,
they tend to respond to um. And also, you know,
making it known that you like somebody, believe it or not.
As complex and multilayered as we like to think we are,
we tend to like people who like us. Research reveals
it's just that simple. And I always make the joke
it's kind of like maybe I'm just maybe it's just me,
(32:59):
But it's kind of like when you're in school and
like you find out that a boy's are crushing you
and you were never really looking at him, but now
that you know, you're like, I know he's kind of
in the right way. I work with it. Yeah, yeah, okay,
he's yeah, he's cute. Yeah I noticed. You know. It's
the same, it's the same idea. There's something about like,
let's say you and I were hanging out with a
(33:20):
group of friends and the next day I tell you, like,
oh my gosh, Ashley could not stop talking about how
funny you are. Suddenly you really like Ashley And that's
just how it works, and so we we know that
to be true, but we're so scared to telegraph our
real feelings. So even telling somebody like, you know, okay,
I like you, you know, and it could be playful.
I don't have to be intense, but it's just something
that puts the seed in her mind of like, oh okay,
(33:41):
we okay, I like, okay, she could she could work,
you know. And so sometimes it's just about making it known.
And a lot of us we think it, but it's
about having the courage to bring it to your lips
and make it known. Yeah. Yeah, the power of vulnerability, right,
putting ourselves out there's so scary, but the reward on
the other side is just so often worth it. Um
I wanted to ask you this a little bit ago.
(34:02):
You brought up meetups and and sort of those opportunities
to connect with people. Do you have any apps you recommend?
I went, I'm gonna tell this. I probably will have
told this story at the front of this episode. I
was on bumble BFF for like fifteen seconds, and half
the time people didn't think it was me. If they
were messaging me and I'm like, now I'm really looking
for friends in a way. UM and I went on
(34:22):
one bubble BFF day. It was when I first moved
to l A. So I was having a hard time
just meeting people outside in my industry, which is kind
of what I wanted. I just didn't want to always
be talking about what I talked about for really, UM
and I met some really cool ladies. I obviously only
hung out with one, but I'm curious to know is
that is that still a vibe? Like what's going on
with that app? Are there any others you recommend? Like
(34:43):
where where can we go? Um to meet people who
are already on the same page about wanting to meet
new friends. Oh my gosh, I love that you brought
that up, because in two that's a necessary part of
the conversation around friendship is technology. You know, we use
it for everything else. So you know, if there's anybody
who's like, don't know, if I want to meet my
friends on an app, it doesn't make you desperate, it
makes you resourceful. We do it for literally everything else,
(35:05):
especially those of us who are moving around and on
the go. Why not find people who are communicating? Hey,
I'm looking to be friends with some new people too,
you might as well, and jumping on those apps gives
you a baseline. So if anything, I always say that
there should be less of a fear of rejection because
you know, everyone signed up to make friends, so you
almost can be you know, you can almost rest assure
(35:26):
that she has the same ideas that you do, and
so she's she's happy to to welcome your invitations. UM
bumble Bff I really like because it's it's been tried
and true, and a lot of women are on there,
so you have kind of like a bigger pool to
pull from. But I think the mistake we make about
bumble bff is some of us go on there like
when we are kind of feeling like we want to
hang out, but we're not totally intentional about friendship. And
(35:49):
that's why you have like a lot of ghosting. Like
you send a woman a message and she maybe doesn't respond,
and then you're like really discourage from the process. So
a couple of tips to like really maximize that. UM.
I recently gave some tips Wall Street journals asking for tips.
I mean, even like the outlets you think would be
like friendship apps are like okay, talk to us because
we need to know. So recently Wall Street Journals asking
(36:10):
me for tips, and I told him the same thing.
If you're getting some you know, uh profile posted up
and you're ready to do this one, you have to
have positive language in your profile because research from these
apps shows that that's going to make the algorithm favor
you more than negative language. So some women will get
on there and say like, I don't like women who
and I don't get along well with people who. Okay,
(36:33):
that's great, but I'm here to connect with people. So
if I'm saying like I don't really like loud people, instead,
maybe I'll say something like I'm looking for people who
have who have kind of like a quiet energy like me.
That's what I get along with. So just flip it around,
what are you looking for? Um? And another mistake I
see is UM getting very general things in the profile
like I really like you know, dogs and music and
(36:55):
like who doesn't. Okay, all right exactly. This is your
chance to differentiate yourself from everybody else. So, you know,
do you have a memory you can share or a
recent funny thing that happened that you can like throw
in there, or a tattoo that you think is really interesting,
like things like that that make you stand out, but
things like you know, music and food and travel like yes, sweetie, yes, okay. Um,
(37:20):
so you know, be specific, be positive, and then you know,
be engaged the whole ghosting and stuff I see on there.
But really that app is a microcosm for real friendship.
Do you show up, do you follow up? Are you positive?
I mean it's the same things, or are you just
going to be transactional? You want somebody to hang out with,
but you are not really in a place where you
want to show up and listen and give so, you know.
(37:41):
So it's it's kind of a microcosm for how you
behave an approach friendship in real life. I've I've I've
noticed m that's a really really interesting observation. Um My mom,
growing up, she would always tell me, you know, ZERI,
every friend doesn't have to play every role. Every friend
isn't for everything right, and growing up I would always
hear it and not really think too hard on it. Now,
in my older age, I really appreciate it and think
(38:02):
it's true because you know, I used to think that
each friend had to be my ind all, be all
and vice versa, right, but it was it was almost like, Okay,
this person is in this category, this person, this person
is in that category. I just want to, you know,
have a bit crazy time. I might call up a
couple of the homies that otherwise are not going to
be the person to like, you know, talk me down
(38:22):
when I'm spiraling. And then I do have a few
of those friends who are the catch alls, and I
am that for them. Um. So I'm curious to know
what you encourage your clients to keep in mind when
it comes to, I hate to say, categorizing their friendships,
but you know, just figuring out where everybody lands when
it comes to different friendships for different seasons or for
(38:43):
different reasons. What are your thoughts. Yeah, I know some
people have a different take on that, but I think
exactly what you just shared is really helpful in terms
of managing expectations, because I've seen the opposite happen where
we're expecting one person to be all the things and
then we get disappointed and it's just like, I mean,
can one person even be all the things? Even if
you get married, can your spouse be all the things?
And so I think even having an approach of you know, Okay,
(39:05):
she's just like my fun buddy. Now maybe after hanging
out long enough, she you know, you notice that she
has the capacity for you to go there. Okay, maybe
I can read, categorize or redefine this. But you know,
if I allow somebody to just be my hangout buddy
but not necessarily my you know, emotional pick me up buddy,
I'll be less devastated if she can't support me in
that way, because that's that's all she can offer right now.
(39:26):
And that's okay. And for somebody, you're just their hangout
buddy and they feel like they can't go deep with you,
and that's and it's okay. And so I think it's
a good approach to help manage expectations, to help keep
your community strong, to allow people to shine in their strengths.
Um I think is a good approach to having friends
in kind of different boxes. We talk about this with
(39:48):
romantic relationships all of the time, toxic versus healthy. I
don't think we talked about it enough when it comes
to friendship. What is the makings of a toxic versus
a healthy friendship? What are the signs if we need
to walk away from a friend and then how do
we do that breakup? Do we go, do we have
a sit down? Do we have to meet him in person?
Like it was, you know, like it's a FUTURECT like
what are the rules there? Yeah? Oh my gosh, so
(40:09):
there's so much there, you know. The simplest way I'll
say is, first I was I always like to get
clear on, you know, a toxic friend versus a really
difficult friend, because I know that's like a hot trendy phrase.
You know, she's difficult and we're like, oh no, I
can't deal with that toxic energy. And it's like, well,
you know, is she toxic as in like toxins poisonous
or is it really obnoxious that she takes forever to
(40:30):
text you back and that's just like so annoying, you know,
Or does she tend to talk about herself a lot
and it's annoying. But when you bring her back and
you're like, girl, okay, back to me, then she does it,
you know. And so you know, how how are we balancing,
you know, being graceful with each other's flaws, being verbal
about our boundaries because a lot of us will not
do that, especially as women. And then we simultaneously penalize
(40:53):
her for something she didn't even know was a crime,
and so I'm not going to tell her, but I'm
going to hold it against her and tell everybody else us.
So does she even get a chance for self correction
before you dismissed her as being problematic? Um? And then
you know, testing her capacity for can she self correct?
Is she humble in that way or is she not
willing to do that? Because that's what matters. But I'm
(41:14):
seeing way too many female friendships and prematurely because we
don't want to do that and it's just easier to
fade out. But I'm not going to tell her why,
and then it's leaving a lot of us with this
emotional baggage as we go and make new friends. I mean,
I've I've coach women who are, you know, mid forties
who are still referring to being ghosted twenty years ago
and thinking that that's impacting like what's going on right now,
and it probably is, which means we've got to do
(41:35):
better with releasing friendships because we're leaving each other with
complexes and it just goes round and round. So you know,
if you have a friend who is manipulative or who's
guilty you or who's very judgmental. I mean to the
point where you feel like you have to like hide
information because she's gonna, you know, disapprove of your choices,
and you feel like you have to shrink yourself. I
mean anything where you feel like you can't show up
as your your real self because this person's um bringing
(42:00):
like an energy that suppresses that is something to look at. Um.
I also believe that, you know, there's different ideas of toxic,
because what's toxic to you may not be to somebody else.
Now know, some obvious things like she's you know, cursing
you out or playing games and things like that. Sure
she's lying, and sure, you know, universally not acceptable, but
maybe there are certain limitations you have and she keeps
(42:23):
pressing against them. Maybe unknowingly it's toxic that situation for you.
For somebody else, the way that she operates is just fine,
and they have a rhythm and they have an understanding
and it works for them, you know, And so you know,
there's some of it that's a little bit relative as well.
But if you think you have a friend who's toxic
without a doubt, and you're like I cannot invest in
this anymore. I one do not ghost. I'll say that
(42:46):
all day long. And to me, ghosting means that one
person cuts off communication without an explanation and the other
person still wanted to be involved. Now there's like a
mutual fading out, which we've all done, Like you hang
out a little us and then you care a little
less and then like it doesn't have legs anymore, and
both people signed up for that. There's an understanding. It
(43:08):
just is what it is. As a matter of fact.
Research tells us. I know, I'm a nerd for like
research tells us, But other research research tells us that,
you know, we replaced half of our friends every seven years,
and so to some extent, it's to be expected that
there will be maybe these fade outs as we you know,
get a new job, we adopt some new beliefs and mindset.
(43:30):
That's going to happen. There's going to be some natural
pruning that takes place. Um, But if it's a situation
where you want out and the other person doesn't know
or they don't share those feelings, it does require giving
them the dignity of of letting them know I'm not
gonna be seeing you anymore, and so you know, I
think that you should do that and whatever mode is
most natural to you too. If you guys normally meet
(43:51):
in person, it makes sense to meet in person. I
can't break up with a meet in person friend on
text or a texting friend on email, you know. And
so a little bit of it has to congruent with
how y'all naturally communicate. Unless you've identified some things in
her that says you know, it might be best to
do this in the email because of how I know
she reacts things like that, but you have to make
it known however you were at that. I think the
(44:13):
emphasis should be on what you want and not what
she lacks. So instead of so, instead of you know what,
you're just to this and this and this, and I
just think it's too much or you're not this enough,
and I just can't deal with that anymore. All of
that is rooted in her uh shortcomings, instead of you know,
that same thing might be true, but instead of you
(44:35):
know what, I'm really looking for more of X y
Z right now, and I just don't think I get
that here and it's not personal, but I just think
I have to go and pursue that right now, or
prioritize that right now. It's about what you want. It's
not about how she's to this and to that, because
it's all relative at the end of the day. And
so as long as you can kind of remember that
language around the conversation. Yes, it's uncomfortable. No, you're not
(44:57):
doing anybody favors by keeping it to yourself, because I
hear a lot of that, like, well, I don't want
to make her feel weird, so I'm not going to
let her know I'm done being friends. Yes, it's uncomfortable.
That's what big girls do. You know. It doesn't have
to be a big formal thing. It can be direct,
it can be compassionate. You give her a chance to
say her side too. That's why you know, sometimes texts
feel unfair because you've made the decision, but it's a
(45:18):
one way dialogue and you're saying, I'm reporting this information
to you, but you don't get to respond. She's going
to have an emotional reaction. It's news to her, but
you've been thinking about it, but it's new information for her.
And then to stick to it when you're done, because
a lot of us undo it because we feel bad
or we miss her. She's our friend for a reason,
we miss her, and we go back. So then kind
(45:38):
of sticking with what you said, UM, to make the
message clear and you know, releasing their friendship with as
much grace as possible. Really great tips as far as
like gently coming out of a thing that you don't
want to be in. I love that emphasis on what
you want or need as opposed to, you know, having
someone leave with all of this bad energy where you
just so often the laundry with the issues they have
(45:59):
and you opinion. UM. I hear women say We've all
heard women say um at some at certain points. Maybe
you've been the woman who said, I just don't get
along with other women. I'm just more of like I
like to hang with the boys, like I don't know girls.
It's just so I'm curious to know, what do you
think when you hear that? When you hear women say it,
(46:20):
what comes to mind? Have you had clients say it?
What do you think they really mean by that? Is
it fair to say it? I mean sometimes women we
can get petty. They can get petty too, So I
think there's two sides to every coin. But what what
are your thoughts on that? That dynamic. First, I'll say, unfortunately,
I have been that woman. It was it was when
I first went to college, and I'm trying to differentiate
(46:41):
myself from other girls with the guys. But what we're
doing there is revealing internalized misogyny. Because if I'm trying
to say I'm not like other girls who are petty
and gossipy and conniving, I'm not like them. I'm different.
It's not a compliment. I mean, we're saying our entire
gender is these things things, but I'm not them, and
(47:01):
so it's problematic just to begin with, we're subscribing to
to those ideas about our own I do understand that's
probably rooted for some women and some very real experiences,
because whenever I say that, they're sure to come for
me in the comments with but you don't understand what
women have done to me. I'm sure that is true.
I am sorry that that's when your experience. But anything
that we're walking away from and dismissing the entire group
(47:23):
as a problem because of our experience with one would
be a problem just in any other arena. I think
it's interesting that you never hear men do that. That's
how I know that it's like a misogynistic thing. You
don't hear men like, oh I can't do guys. It's crazy,
you know. I recently saw a TikTok where a girl said,
you know what, ladies, if you, you know, cut off
other women and you're doing this and that it doesn't
(47:44):
make you, you you know, be, it makes you. It means
that you're doing something right. So if you have no
female friends, you're doing something right. And so many women
tag me and I just was like, I have to
digest that. But it was sad that we're sending this
message to a whole group of young women that assign
you're on track is your own don't like you? And
I just I just don't understand that. Um I so
(48:05):
so I try to account for I know it's rooted
in a very real experience. Um but my biggest AHA
moment in the past year is I wonder how much
of it is because we see ourselves with each other.
If I if I see a group of women, I
am suddenly confronted with my ideas of femininity and and
womanhood and confidence. I see myself in you. And so
(48:26):
if I'm not sure about how feminine I think I
am if I'm pretty enough, smart enough, if I'm not
sure about those things, it's hard for me to be
around you because you are a reminder of what I
don't have. It is a mirror, but that's for any group.
As a black person, when I go into a group
of all black people, I'm suddenly aware of certain things,
and so I'm just I'm wondering how much of it
(48:46):
is our ideas of womanhood and being confronted with them
among other women. It's just just a thought of of
why it's so intense. But I don't think that jealousy
and pettiness is exclusive to men. That's people. And if
you say, oh, well, women have let me down, that's
what people do, is we disappoint each other. That's what
we do. But since a lot of our social interactions,
(49:09):
even when we're younger, are gendered girls over here, boys
over here, it probably is a higher probability that you
had women screw you over because that's who you've been
around your entire life, and so it's just some things
to kind of consider. But I honor those women's experiences.
I do think it's dangerous to dismiss an entire group
because of those experiences. Yeah, so so true. Spot out
(49:30):
it and I completely agree with what you were saying
around you know, sometimes it's our insecurities, right, it's as
projecting and when we are faced with people who technically
we could be compared to, sometimes it's our internal monologue.
It's our dialogue with ourselves doing the comparing and feeling
threatened or feeling less than or too much. Um. And
so it's just uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable to be around people who,
(49:52):
for whatever reason make us, UM think a little harder
about who we are, how we're showing up and maybe
how we're failing. Um. If that's the headspace that we're
in when we're in those in those social groups. Um, okay,
I know we were in the home stretch here. We're
wrapping up one question that I just want your personal answer.
You're you're married, right, okay? Um. So the idea of
(50:13):
a partner as a best friend as your your ind all,
bey all, we touched on it a little bit earlier.
Do you subscribe to that notion? Um? Is it to
each his own when you're talking to each her own,
when you're talking to your clients? Um? What do you
feel about that idea that we're all out here just
looking for that one person, and once our partners our
best friend, everyone else's you know, a lovely compliment to
(50:34):
our our northern star. Right. Yeah, gosh, you were like
summing up the idea that I know a lot of
women have. If there's a woman who's like, no, you
don't understand, my husband's my best friend, I think that's beautiful.
Like that's great, that is great. Um, I do think
we set ourselves up for disappointment if the expectation going
into relationships is that like, Okay, you should be my person,
(50:56):
because if we're being totally real, you're not going to
be his person for all the things he needs people
to supplement what you offer him. You're not replaceable, but
you're also not Alpha and Omega. And there's other people,
you know who who satisfy him, you know, in different
ways in terms of intellectual needs or sports needs or
whatever it is. And let him go do his thing
and come back, you know, guy friends or co workers,
(51:17):
and so he has this nice collective of offerings that
fill him up. And so with the whole idea the
best friend, you know, I've had that, and I think
that's great. Um, But for fort of adults who say
they do not have the best friend. You know, the
idea really is to think about what you need. You
need to be seen, you need laughter in your life,
you need to feel like you have somebody you can
(51:38):
you can talk to. Do you have to get all
those things from one person? No, but a lot of
us obsess over that. When you take an aerial view
of your community, are you getting that collectively? Like do
you have somebody you could call? Do you have people
who do make you laugh? Do you have friends who
would come help you move? If so, you've got everything
you need. It's just spread amongst the community. And so,
(51:59):
you know, I think women need to be careful when they,
you know, make the their husband everything. And I think
you need your girls, and we offer something that supplements
and compliments that relationship. UM. So it's just something to
keep in mind if people decide, you know what, I
think I want a friendship coach. I think I'm ready
for the next step. Um, how will it? How do
we know when we might benefit from the services of
(52:22):
someone like you? Um? And then also what services exactly
do you offer? Tell us all the things? How do
we get You know, people don't really ask that about, like,
how do I know I need a coach? People do
not ask often enough, you know. I think the biggest
misconception about friendship coaching is we picture the socially awkward
wallflower hiring a coach teach me how to talk to
people now, while she's certainly on the docket, Okay, while
(52:44):
she's certainly there. I think people be surprised to learn
that most of the women I work with are high achieving,
um really clever, funny, smart, attractive whatever that looks like women.
And I don't know if it's because they approach everything
else in their lives very strategically, so they want to
figure this out. But it's not that they're socially inept.
(53:06):
Maybe they moved to a new city and they're like, Okay,
normally I'm miss network, but how do I get plugged
in here? Or it's because they've been with a guy
for a really long time and now they've broken up
and they have to start from scratch. Or it's because
they want to have a really hard conversation with a
friend and they're trying to make a big decision and
they want an objective voice to help them work through
what life on the other side of this decision is
(53:28):
going to look like and am I ready to do it?
And so I think it's interesting to first kind of
dismiss the idea of what a woman who needs a
coach would look like, and to ask ourselves, am I
kind of struggling to make new friends even though I've
tried all the things? Um do I keep having this
repeated cycle with a certain friend? Um Do? I have
lots of friends, but deep down I don't really feel
connected to any of them. And I don't know if
(53:48):
I should kind of keep this up and we're all
doing this, or if I should like push for something more.
Those would be signs that maybe you need to talk to,
you know, a coach about it and work it out,
because I know sometimes we talk to our part partner
and they don't get it or they minimize it with like,
oh well if she gets on your nerves, stopped talking
to her and you're like, okay, well it's it's more complicated, Okay, right,
you know that, Yeah, exactly. They can't relate. Our parents
(54:12):
are far removed from it, and then sometimes it's complicated
to talk to your friends about your friends. Do I
look like I'm gossiping or maybe my friends will want
to have an issue with or you know, is this
a safe space? And so to have somebody who you
can just say all the things and they're giving you
objective insight. My job is not to give you advice.
You know a lot of women will say like, you
know what you know, do I break up with her
(54:32):
or not? And I'm like, Okay, I have a couple
of questions for you, and by the end you know
exactly what you need to do. But that's not my job.
But you've been asked questions you have never considered before
that give you some direction. Um and so like if
that's something that you know, woman's listening and she's like yes,
all those things. You know, everything lives at Better Female
Friendships dot com. That's where they can, you know, find
(54:53):
out more about the podcast. My podcast is called the
friend Forward Podcast. Sign up for coaching or even come
to you know an event that we're are starting up
again and so we try to be really intentional about
teaching really um strategic, high achieving women how to have
better relationships with other women in their lives. That's what
it's all about. Well, that is certainly our audience so
I love to hear that, Danielle, where you based, just
(55:14):
out of curiosity, Tampa, Florida. You're in Tampa, Florida. Okay, Okay?
Then UM, to wrap things up, we have a party trip,
which is our last segment and it's just super rapid
fire for this week's party trick, I'd love if you
could give us three signs we should end a friendship. Okay.
Sign number one. She embarrasses you in front of other
(55:36):
people intentionally never okay UM. Signed number two, she makes
you feel guilty about your decisions, who you date, where
you go, with job you take, and shows her disapproval
of your life choices. UM, And I guess signed number
three would be UM not being happy for you because
your friends should feel like your success was their own. UM,
(55:58):
so that would be problematic as well. Hey man, well
that's a party true heard. Thank you so much for
your time, your expertise. You guys, check her out if
you're into UM, the idea of friendship coaching, want to
learn more about what she does, or following social right.
There's so many gyms that you're dropping there too, So
thank you so much for sharing that with our audience today.
Thank you for having me happy bet all right, thank
(56:22):
you again Danielle for joining me on Hot Happy Mess today.
Make sure you guys check out her services and remember
that there is no shame in asking for help, asking
for community, reaching out for friendship. Okay, so before I
head out, I want to share a quick listener review
at k Dollinger says Absolute Vibe. This is ten percent
(56:42):
a my new favorite podcast between Zuri and her guests.
There are so many one liners that really make you
open your eyes. Peace within yourself shouldn't be foreign. My
word of the year is nourished, whether it is my mind, body, soul,
or those around me. Highly all caps recommend. Love that review.
I love you for writing it. Thank you so much, um,
(57:03):
and I'm glad you're enjoying the podcast. If you're listening,
I haven't left a review yet, Please do on Apple
Podcasts or Spotify and leave a five star rating so
I know it's real and we can keep this good
content coming to you. If you think there's someone who
might enjoy this episode, this friendship chat, go ahead and
share it with them and tag me on social. If
(57:25):
you are listening at Hot Happy Mess at Zuri Hall
and we'll repost you okay, okay uh. Stay tuned for
more episodes coming every Wednesday. I'll see you on the Graham.
I'm about to get on TikTok oh good and in
the meantime, be blessed, be healthy, be well. I am
sending you love and light and I'll talk to you later.
Bye bye bye
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