July 6, 2022 • 44 mins
Finding a good therapist can feel a lot like dating (exhausting!), but don’t worry we’ve got you covered. Today Zuri is chatting with Lia Mancao, a licensed therapist about who therapy is for; why we need to toss out the stigmas surrounding mental health; and the new therapy technique that is helping to treat Prince Harry’s trauma.
Stay tuned as Z shares her journey to finding a therapist and how it’s helped with her personal growth (especially as a reformed people-pleaser). Finally, Lia shares tips on how to break up with your therapist and why its important for WOC & Queer folx to find a therapist that understands them and their lived realities.
Share this episode with a friend NOW + let us know your favorite part of the convo: @ZuriHall and @HotHappyMess
Don’t forget to hit up hothappymess.com for all the show notes mentioned in this episode and for ALL the deets on how to join our exclusive Facebook group!
Recent episodes: if ya feel like binging:
- ICYMI: Episode 65: Here’s How to Use Astrology for Happiness, Love, Success, and Wellness
- ICYMI: Episode 64: How to Build Your Confidence and Become That Girl!!!
- ICYMI: Episode 62: How to Cultivate Unconditional Self Worth
- ICYMI: Episode 61: How To Authentically Make (and KEEP) Friends as an Adult
- ICYMI: Episode 40: Got Peace? The Six Types of Boundaries to Reclaim Yourself
- ICYMI: Episode 21.5: Soooo.... I BOUGHT A HOUSE!!!
- ICYMI: Episode 10: I Have Commitment Issues, Let's Chat, Attachment Styles
- Episode 1: How to Be Happy (But Also WTF Do I Know)
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hot Happy Mess. Celebrate your magic in the middle of
life's messes Happy. I'm Zeri Hall and this is hot
Happy Man. Shoot. What is up? Welcome back to another
episode of Hot Happy Mess. I'm your host Zuri Hall,
(00:30):
who is newly back from her much needed euroad trip,
a lovely vacation. Not just Europe, also London because Brexit.
Um so, I was in the UK and Europe for
about ten days. I flew out to Nice and then
ended up at a resort about twenty minutes south of there.
(00:51):
I was honored to be asked to host a charity
gala for a really important cause. Patrick Muratu Blues an
amazing tennis co which he has a resort, his own
resort in Tennis Academy and the shomp Seed Foundation which
helps empower young tennis talent to follow in the footsteps
(01:11):
of the greats like Serena, Williams, Venus, Williams um and
so many others. Serena actually being one of the tennis
stars that Patrick coached. I flew out there, I lived
my best can life and it was beautiful. Oh my god,
I need more time there. Um. I only got to
spend a proper day and a half in can and
(01:32):
it is just gorgeous. The water is so blue. We
took a boat for a day trip to Sancho Pay
and lived our best life at Nicki Beach um and
had all of the Don Juleo nineteen forty two and
I'm getting old. I was like, oh, yeah, this isn't
the thing that I can just do and recover quickly
from anymore, not to sell. Uh. So that was really cool.
(01:54):
And then what I'm really proud of is I decided
to solo travel, uh for the rest of my vacation.
You know, I've talked with friends. I was flirting with
the idea of going with a friend for the entire
length of the vacation. But for whatever reason, I can't
say for sure why it was on my spirit to
just go by myself and then rendezvous with you know, friends, homies,
(02:16):
acquaintances in the various cities and countries that I was in.
But I kind of liked the idea of marching to
the beat of my own drum and just being where
I wanted to be when I wanted to be there.
You know, when you travel with people, whether it's a
group or just one person, it's like kind of have
to negotiate right what you're gonna do each day, or
where you're gonna go next, or what parties or what
types of restaurants which can be fun, or if you're
(02:39):
with this type of really cool, super chill friend who's like, Okay,
have fun, I'll see you tomorrow, Like who knows. But
I just kind of wanted to do my own thing.
So I was in the south of France for a
few amazing days and then I flew up to Paris
and spent two nights at the most gorgeous hotel. Uh
like one of my favorites. I splurged, y'all. I was
like who, But then I was like, you deserve this, Okay.
(03:03):
This was my one significant vacation of the summer um
of this year so far, um where I'm actually getting
away for an extended amount of time. So I was like,
we're doing it. So I booked a five star stay
for two nights in Paris at then Lynskey Paris, and
I highly recommend it. Oh my god, go follow me
on Instagram and you'll see some highlights um from Paris
(03:27):
and from the hotel and just like that entire experience
and don't get it twisted, that was not gifted, that
was not a pr anything that came out of the pocket.
And for half a second I was like Z, just
because like I the more I UM, not the older
I get. I'm just I'm in a point in my
life where I'm just you know, being super locked in
(03:47):
and serious about my financial goals. So I could. I
certainly could do it and had earned the right to
do it based on how hard I've been working. But
I was just in that mindset. But then I was like,
you know what, I'm doing it, So if I'm gonna
do it, then just f and do it and no guilt. No,
I probably should have just done this instead, like, uh,
(04:09):
we're not doing that. If you decide to do something,
if you decided to treat yourself, if you're gonna do it,
you might as well go all in, you feel me,
If you're gonna spend the money, you might as well
smile spending it, cry later. And that's my perspective on
that um. But anyways, it was amazing. There's father pool.
I got one of the best massages I've ever had
in my life, and then I just sort of perused
(04:32):
and wandered aimlessly in the streets of Paris. I was
in there. They at the first like the first district
or area, which is so perfectly located, I mean walking
distance to the Louver Museum and uh To Opera and
so many other cool places. So highly recommend you guys
(04:53):
check out that hotel um if you're ever in the
mood to splurge in Paris. But also a lot of
really great hotels in the mid range to like. Um.
Sometimes I'll go to hotel tonight dot com for last
minute bookings and then you can sometimes get a good
deal um on a hotel. You can just put in
wet star level you want three, four or five whatever um,
(05:15):
and then sometimes will score a last minute booking UM.
So that was awesome. Then after Paris, I flew to
London and live my best life there. I stayed at
the Dean Street Townhouse, which was so just cozy and
lived in and had an understated elegance to it, and
it was perfectly centered in the heart of Soho. Um.
(05:36):
The Soho House there is amazing UM. And I had
a really great time. And what was so cool about
solo traveling is I got I met all these amazing
people at the Gala in the South of France and
we hit it off. And then it turned out that
like half of the gala was headed to London to
hang out to some a lot of them lived there,
and we're just in the South of France for the
(05:56):
charity gala um and so I got invited to a
couple of really cool party is in London, and so
it all just sort of came together. And it's because
I left room. I left space for, you know, the
magic to happen, Like whatever was going to be was
going to be. I didn't even book my flights to
Paris until I was already in the South of France,
because I was like, who knows, Maybe I'll wake up
and decide I don't want to fly to Paris. Maybe
(06:17):
I want to fly to Santorini or Micanos or Sardinia,
like who knows. In the end, I wanted to fly
to Paris. But it was a great time. So I
feel rested, I feel good, I feel excited to get
back to work. And that's how I know that the
vacation was needed and that it did what it was
supposed to do, because it wasn't really a relaxing, slow vacation.
(06:39):
I wasn't just lounging on a beach for a week.
Lord knows I could use that, and I do have
a few days coming up for that. But it was
restorative and that I was seeing new things and eating
new foods and meeting new people and dusting off languages
that I haven't tried to speak in years, and I
don't know, I just felt so alive, Like I'm a
person I realized who threw lives in adventure and change
(07:03):
and freedom and travel and new experiences and that's just
always going to be a part of my life. And
I've I've learned to embrace that, you know, like you
get to a certain age and I have wondered if
sometimes the people around me, and just a few people
might think, oh, like is this is the time to
be settling down and slowing down and just building a
(07:25):
home life. And I'm loving that part of it right,
I'm loving nesting in my first home. Oh. By the way,
go follow home Body Hall on Instagram. That's where I'm
going to be sharing all of my home renovations, home
decorating transformations in the house. I'm about to start the backyard,
heard up all the things. So follow home Body Hall
(07:45):
if you want to get an inside look at the
home buying process and um renovation process, and you can
go check out my episode back in the day when
I first bought my house, uh and kind of gave
you guys the nitty gritty on that. So anyway, back
to whatever I was talking about, Yeah, I've just realized
I'm one of those people like, ideally, in a perfect world,
(08:06):
once I'm married, once I have children, UM, things that
I very much look forward to when the time is right,
that baby is about to just get on my back
and we gotta go. We gotta hop this flight, because
I don't think your world has to center around or
constrict with this new life. Granted, things will certainly change,
and they are the top priority, but I very much
(08:30):
am of the mind that, you know, the child, the
children become a part of the life and the lifestyle
that you've built and want to build for not just
yourself now but your family, and that can look however
you wanted to look. So I feel like me paying
the kids, they're just gonna be running around trying not
to miss flights. In a perfect world A couple of
(08:51):
times a year. I say that now and talk to
me in ten years and I'll be like, oh my god,
I haven't left the house in six months. Is there
light out there? But anyways, I'm back from Europe. I
loved it. I hope you are having an amazing summer
so far. Speaking of summer, I asked for submissions for
a hot, happy mess official drink and snack of the summer,
and Sheyla gave a really great suggestion, apper all betties.
(09:16):
I didn't even know what that was. I've heard of
an apperall sprits, but she says, an apperall Betty is
an app is apper all o J pineapple, prosecco and
a splash of sprite with charcuterie boards heavy on the
summer fruit and light cheese is all summer long. So
Sheyla Shane Nikki twenty two, Thank you, queen. I love it.
I love it, I love it. I'm gonna try to
(09:36):
make one this week, maybe this weekend, to toast to
my reunion with his home here in l A peek
back on the patio with the puppy and chill. So
thank you for what will now be our official drink
of summer, The Apparell Betty, brought to you by Sheila
and Decide of Charcouterie. Okay, so this month is BIPOP
Mental Health Awareness Month, and we have a ton of
(09:58):
great episodes coming your way that are going to give
you tools that you may need that you probably want
to create balance and to establish boundaries and manifest happiness
and find peace. Most importantly, because if you've been listening
to this podcast for any length of time, you know
that is really what it's all about. That's what I
(10:20):
am in a state of seeking or trying to continue
to maintain. Right, the whole point is to not feel
like you're seeking and striving so much, but to kind
of get to a place of non striving and contentment
with what is, and gratitude for what is, and you know,
hope and positivity around the idea of what might be.
So in today's episode, we're talking about how to find
(10:43):
a therapist because it can be hardest. Our expert will
share the different types of therapy treatment, the importance of
finding an inclusive therapist that understands your reality, and also
why you shouldn't gost your therapist. Not cool, bro, But
I will say finding a therapist for me, I've had
a few therapists in my life. Um. A couple who
are really great, like life changing um, and I will
(11:05):
just say, like, don't give up. Right, It's the same
as dating a little bit. You gotta go through a
couple at least to sort of know what you want,
what works, what doesn't. Maybe you want a more hands
on approach, you want homework assigned, you want someone to
really hold you accountable and challenge you lovingly or thoughtfully.
And then some people are just like, just listen to
(11:26):
me talk. I just need somebody to talk to you
for an hour each week because I don't have that
person and I wanted to be you, you know, And
so maybe it's more talk therapy. But I have finally
gotten to a point where I have an amazing therapist.
She's awesome. It feels collaborative. I'm a person who likes
a little bit of homework without a lot because I
don't have a lot of time. Um, But I do
like to feel that I'm growing and being thoughtfully and
(11:50):
kindly challenged a little bit. To reconsider some of my
ideas and not even reconsidered them in a in a
are you wrong or right way zuri, but reconsider my
ideas around who I am and what I believe and
and my therapist that I'm with now has really helps
me embrace a lot more of who I am and
(12:11):
not just be okay with but celebrate the things about
me that someone else might be confused by or not
understand or disagree with. Um. But I'm learning, I've been
learning for years, but especially now, to have a lot
more grace with myself and also a lot more pride
and acceptance in who I am and what I bring
(12:34):
to the table and what I want and to not apologize,
to be unapologetic in all of that and who I
am and who I want around me, and also being
able to let things go or walk away from things
where people who no longer serve whatever my north star is.
And that can be really difficult, especially when you're a
(12:55):
people pleaser, as I've been for most of my life,
varying degrees, and a lot of can relate to that.
I'm sure a lot of you can relate to that.
But yeah, that's sort of my therapy journey these days.
I'm loving it. It's good. It's good. It's good, and
I hope you find the therapist that you're looking for
if you haven't already. So without further Ado, let's get
the combos started. Here's Leah, She's back. Liamankow is a
(13:19):
licensed mental health therapist and group practice owner based in
Sherman Oaks, California. She specializes in treating anxiety, depression, and trauma,
as well as helping her clients connect with their inner child.
Last year, she was a guest on our do You
or your Partner Have Communication, commitment or Trust Issues? Episode,
which is one of our most popular episodes to date.
(13:40):
So Leah, welcome back, Thank you for having me. I'm
excited to chat again, and I'm excited about this topic.
Yeah yeah, before we dive in, which is going to
happen really quickly here, guys, but just really quickly share
your background for those who may be listening to you
for the first time on our podcast. Um, what's a
little bit of your specialty and why did you become
a therapists? Sure? So, I'm a license clinical social worker,
(14:02):
which basically means I'm a license psychotherapist and in private practice,
I own a group practice and I kind of therapy
found me. I actually went to school, the School of
Social Work at USC because I wanted to do more
advocacy and programming but then my internships were all clinical,
they were all one on one, and I really fell
in love with the field of therapy and graduate school.
But it was not my intention to be a therapist. Okay,
(14:25):
so sort of a natural evolution, as life tends to
to do for us. I'm grateful that we're having this conversation,
particularly because traditionally there's been a lot of stigma around,
you know, going to therapy, particularly when you think about
communities or families of color. I feel like that stigma
is starting to live, which is really encouraging when I
(14:45):
see more conversations online, especially about getting a therapist, finding
someone to talk to, someone to support you. Um, but
I'm curious to know what are some of the the
initial pushbacks you often hear about why someone might not
want a therapist. Oh, I don't really need it because
this or that. Well, it's like what you initially said,
(15:07):
it's the stigma. So there's this idea that you're either
weak or quote unquote crazy. I don't like that word.
If you're seeing a therapist, like, there's this idea that
there's something wrong with you. And I think in certain
communities there's this like pick yourself up by the bootstraps
mentality that if you can't figure it out on your own,
then you know, it's not a good look. It's not
a good look. So that's one of the reasons why
(15:30):
people push back on it. And then there there's also
I think misconceptions on what therapy is because sometimes people
will say things like, oh, I can just talk to
my best friend, or I can talk to my partner,
or I can just go to church and it's just
not the same thing, or I go to the gym.
The gym is my therapy, right, And so as you
said that, because I think that all the clubs remove
all of the pressure and expectations sometimes we put on
(15:53):
the other people in our life, like I cannot be
your best friend, your mama, your therapist, you're all these things,
like otherwise I'm not doing any one of those things
particularly well. Um, I think people always feel like a
therapist has to be someone who swoops in to save
the day for a very specific reason, writes the prescription
or to suggest someone who can rather than it out. Yeah,
(16:15):
and that's that's oftentimes how people see therapy as like
this crisis situation too. So obviously, you know, we have
seen a lot of that stigma traditionally, but slowly but surely,
more people are talking about it and being more open
about the role mental health struggles and journeys towards therapy.
Who would you say therapy is for? Why should someone
anyone sign up? I think that therapy is for everybody,
(16:38):
as cliche as that sounds so earlier we talked about
the misconception is you need to be in a crisis
in order to go see a therapist. But the opposite
can also be true. You can use therapy as a
space for personal growth reflection because we don't know what
we don't know and a therapist. What I like to
see as of therapy is it's a person that holds
(16:59):
up a mirror to our blind spots. We all have
blind spots. We all have blind spots. So it's a
person that can hold up a mirror and help us
see things about ourselves and our interactions that we can't
see with the naked eye. And when it comes to
different types, you know, like some people are like, Oh,
I'm big into talk therapy on and I need something
a little bit more concrete. You've got CBT, hypnotherapy, all
(17:20):
of the different options available to us UM and sort
of how it all works. Yeah, I like that, you
know the different names, yes, yeah, So there are these
different evidence based practices. But therapy in general is talk therapy,
so you talk about your feelings, you talk about your thoughts,
(17:42):
your schemas, and the therapist helps you correct any kind
of errors in your thinking. And then within therapy we
have evidence based practices. So there's these are specific therapeutic
modalities that are meant to treat specific mental health disorders.
So CBT is probably, I believe, the most effective tree
right now for people who suffer from depression anxiety, and
(18:04):
CBT as a structured approach. Its stands for cognitive behavior therapy,
and it helps you recognize thought patterns that are keeping
you stuck in certain cycles. Because people of depression anxiety
tend to have more rigid thinking, very inflexible, and they're thinking.
CBT actually is an approach that teaches you how to
be more flexible than the way you see things, got it?
(18:27):
Any other ones that you think are probably the most
common that people might gravitate towards. So then there's also
e M d R therapy. Have you heard of the
m d R? I have remote? What does this stand
for I movement, desensitization and reprocessing. Okay, so this is
ritz Harry just talk about this, Do Prince Harry? Oh
(18:48):
he did? I don't know. I think he just did
a massive sit down talking about mental health and some
of them sort of more innovative therapeutic practices that he tried.
I think at the encourage been of Meg and Markel.
He was. It was on a podcast. I'll have to
double check, but I'm pretty sure it was E. D.
M R. Okay. So this is for people who it's
(19:09):
like I've been to therapy, I've talked about it, but
I still get these intense feelings or I still can't
stop these patterns that I'm doing. Right, So this is
for people. It treats trauma and it uses your eye
movements and going back and forth to help you recall
some of the experiences that you've been through that might
have been suppressed or repressed. Interesting, so that the very
(19:32):
action of that eye movement could actually trigger thoughts that
otherwise you can tucked away. Exactly. It can trigger thoughts, feelings, images,
sensations in the body that might have been tucked away
and that might have been experienced during a certain time
in your life where you might have had a traumatic
thing happened, really and this is something like backed by research?
(19:52):
Is this so knew that it's still you know, we're
waiting to see what steadies show this is. It's both
so it is relatively new compared to the other evidence
based practices. But what the studies have been showing is
that it has been effective to treat ptsday and there
are still studies going got it, got it? Okay? Um.
(20:12):
Sometimes people use the words interchangeably. You're just incorrectly myself included,
and often the therapist, psychologist, psychiatrists. One of the biggest
difference is psychiatrists prescribed in that yes, that's it, and
then you have people and then you have people like
(20:33):
me who are licensed clinical social workers that are therapists,
and then you have psychologists. So I'm a master's level clinician,
and then psychologists have their PhDs so they can do
additional things like psychological testing and other stuff that master's
levels clinicians can't do, but all all can provide therapy.
(20:54):
I'm curious to know what are your thoughts on when
it comes to finding a therapist for part or ship
like couples therapy, right, because you always get one half
of the couple that's like, I feel like he likes
you more than he likes me, or she's more on
your side ins So how do you go about navigating
finding a therapist as a couple. What I recommend for
(21:15):
people is, because you are a unit, you have to
find the therapist together. Usually there's one person in the
relationship that tends to do most of the emotional labor,
and that's the person who's going to find the therapist,
make the appointment, things like that, and those are probably
systems in the relationship that you're trying to disrupt. So
as a couple finding a therapist, it's important that you
both agree on the person that you're finding, and you
(21:38):
both talk about what you're looking for in therapy, and
you both want to make sure that the therapist that
you've both chosen is competent in the issues that you
guys are experiencing as a couple. And it happens. It happens.
It happens when a couple is like I think they
like she likes you more than she likes me, you
talk about in therapy, because that's usually representative of a
bigger issue anyway, right right, right, exactly. It is really
(22:01):
interesting how even your therapists can end up providing commentary
and your relationship based on how each partner reacts to
certain things in the personality of the therapist. Um, but
that hasn't been a tangent anyways, back to finding a
therapist for the first time. One, where do you recommend
people start with this journey? Should you reach out to
an insurance provider? Are their platforms or websites online that
(22:24):
make it easier to really customize how you find a
person because I always joke that, like one of the
most important decisions in my life is finding the right therapy.
It's like, forget about my partner. I need the right
person talking me through like the phases and chapters in
my life. But it's hard when it feels like such
(22:45):
a random crap shoot online to find the right person?
How do you do? And it is a random crap shoot?
I'm going to validate that it is because it's a
ton of people. It's like dating, though, you have to
find out who's going to be the best fit for you.
So to answer your first questions like where do you begin?
How do you start? I think you want to ask
yourself and be very honest, what's my budget? Because the
(23:07):
price for therapy really ranges, right, so if your budget
is relatively low and you are fortunate to have health
care insurance, then maybe using your health care insurance is
probably going to be the best route for you UM,
because you don't want it to be something that's financially
stressful either. Now let's say you're open to paying out
(23:27):
of pocket, then you kind of have more flexibility and
who you can call. There are websites like Psychology Today
dot com where you can narrow down by location, practices,
and I think you can even narrow down by race
and ethnicity if if I'm not mistaken. There's another website
called Open Path Collective dot org, and this is a
(23:48):
site for people who are on a budget, but they
have license therapist who slide their rate down as low
as thirty dollars a session, which is a very good
rate for therapy. So I recommend that to people who, um,
you know, we're out of pocket, maybe too difficult for them,
so Open Path Collective dot org. Then there's then there's
UM Therapy for Black Girls. Then there's Inclusive Therapist dot
(24:11):
com and then there's um Asian mental health therapy, so
there's a lot of directories that cater specifically to different communities. Awesome,
are there certain red flags that we should consider when
meeting with someone, Like when it comes to licenses certification,
Sometimes you'll get someone it's like, I'm a life coach,
but like not necessarily licensed and that's okay. That just
(24:32):
might be a different thing. How do we figure out
what to look for and be mindful of and when
is it totally okay to just kind of go with
whatever feels good. So sometimes it's so hard to detect
the red flag during the initial consultation. I recommend when
you're shopping for a therapist you ask for an initial
consultation and this is usually a ten to fifteen minute
free phone call where you share you know, what you're experiencing,
(24:55):
what you're wanting to process in therapy. And this is
also an opportunity for you to see how they respond
to you. Are they listening to you, are they attuned
to you? Are they asking you questions? Does their voice
sound gentle? Are they interrupting you? I'm a big energy person,
Like I'm a big energy person, so so for me,
it can be pretty easy to detect. Do I like
this person in ten minutes? Can I trust Can I
(25:16):
somewae trust this person in ten minutes? Um? So that
ten minute call can be very valuable. And sometimes in
those ten minutes you can't see the red flags. So
when you're already in it, red flags might look like
the therapist taking the time. And this sounds really gross,
but they take the time and session to talk about themselves.
Often they yeah, they take your problems and they relate
(25:37):
it back to themselves. Are it exists, and it exists,
and it exists. So it's very important people know about
it because if they've never been in therapy, they're going
to think that this is normal or this is okay,
and it's not. Um. So, it's a therapist that often
relates things back to themselves or talks about themselves, monopolizes
your time, doesn't really allow you space to express yourself.
(26:01):
It's a person that's judgmental. It's a person that texting
during session. It's a person that's I know people do
on Instagram. I did like a little Q and a
kind of just like tell me your therapist red flags
And these are all things people have shared and there
are all things I've heard so I can right therapists
(26:22):
pulled out the phone and started texting, Oh, I don't
know what I would do. People get comfortable. People get comfortable.
And another one is they're constantly rescheduling your appointment to
benefit themselves whatever. You know, they're not predictable, consistent. Yeah,
and that respects your time. They're showing up late, they're
(26:42):
ending early, things like that. Yeah. Are there certain questions
that you recommend we ask during the consultation. You know,
it's kind of like, how do I know if this
persons are right fit for me or not? If I've
never had therapy, Like what do I need in therapy?
Are there certain questions that can help you figure out
if the vibe is right? You can ask, you know,
you can share this is what I'm going through, X, Y,
(27:04):
and Z, and then you can ask you do you
have experience in treating this? You can ask how many
years of experience do you have treating this? What is
your approach? If you kind of know that you're gonna
need coping skills and homework during the week, you can
ask do you give homework? Do you teach coping skills?
Are you more of a therapist that listens and reflects,
or do you ask questions that's going to make me think?
(27:25):
So those are all appropriate things to ask, but I
think it's very important to ask them to say to them,
this is what I'm going through. Do you have experience
of that? And um so, I own a group practice,
right and I have employees, I have therapists, and I
do all of the consultation calls on behalf of my employees,
and people are very I think it's you want to
be as direct as possible. So people say things like,
(27:48):
you know, do they have experience in addressing racial trauma?
Do they have what is their stance on the current
social issues that are going on right now? And will
this be a safe space for me? It is whatever
you're going through, you can ask it because it's a
lot of money and it's your time and you don't
want to waste it, so you want to know those
appetures up front. So I don't think anything is off limits.
And that consultation, No, I love that really really great
(28:10):
things to think about, and you're right, it's your money
and pretty you have a right to have some expectators
around that feeling good for you and feeling like the
right choice. I'm curious to know, you know. I always
ask like the hairstyle is who can't do their own hair?
Is so picky? Like the makeup artist who's like, oh
my gosh, my makeup is always whatever. How is it
(28:33):
as a therapist seeking out a therapist? Like is it
harder for you because your standards are just so high? Um?
Is it easier because you know what you're looking for?
Are you? And that toss? But the thing that you do?
So if I can speak to myself personally, I started
seeing a therapist before I became a therapist, So I
think I kind of just like got grandfathered in and
it's been the same person for a long time. So
(28:56):
this person is seen grow from grad school to where
I'm at today, right, Um, other people, what I've noticed
kind of just the difference people who tend to start
to see therapist kind of after they've become therapists, then
their standards tend to be a little bit higher or
it's almost like there you're playing chess with your therapist.
It becomes a lot harder to find somebody. But what
(29:18):
also makes it tricky is the community is also so small.
It can be so smalse and it's hard to find
somebody that doesn't know somebody you know, So it does
get tricky in that way. But what you're saying does
happen to a lot of therapists or it gets a
little hard. Yeah. One of my girlfriends was joking that
she ends up psychoanalyzing herself in her session with her
(29:38):
She also is one to the point that she's like, Okay,
I gotta snap od on it because I'll be sitting
here judging my therapists assessment. Yeah, what's going on. You
can predict their line of questioning and where they're going
to where they're going with it. Well, fascinating stuff. And
you talked a little bit about different care providers, different platforms, um,
(30:02):
is there one that you personally prefer over the others?
You know, Better Help is a really big one. Talk
therapy is another one. I've actually used better Help before,
um during the pandemic actually when I was looking for
a new therapist, and that obviously made it much easier
to do. Is there anything that you recommend or any
sort of free or affordable community services people can look
into If money is a bit more of an issue, Oh,
(30:25):
that's a good question. So in terms of what platform
I recommend, I don't you know, endorse any specific one
because they're all very different. And you mentioned Better Help,
and I think you know that is perfect also for
the person who's busy, right, because I what I hear
about Better Help, I could be wrong, is like they're
very accessible. The therapist on Better Help are very accessible, um,
and so it's good for the person who's on the go.
(30:48):
And if money is an issue, I recommend finding clinics
in the area. Oftentimes clinics backed by government resources provide
free there so if you have medical, if you have medical,
I think a therapy is free for you and you
just have to find a clinic that accepts medical, and
(31:08):
there's several of them. You can also find private practices
that have interns or unlicensed therapists, and their their rates
are usually much lower than the therapists who are licensed,
and their work is just as good, but because they're
not licensed, they charge at a different rate. So get
going to the beauty school for the haircut. There's somebody
(31:30):
else graduation like they still know what they're doing. But
that's exactly it. Okay, So I want to zero in
a little bit particularly for the women of color who
may be listening. People of color, UM, it can be
particularly difficult to find a therapist that we feel understands
(31:53):
us in sort of a cultural context around a lot
of our struggles. UM, what do you know of or
what have you seen in the community of people who
go to therapy or are considering it and also of color.
Are their disparities in that space? Yeah? There there absolutely
our disparities in that space. Typically, people of color tend
(32:14):
to seek therapy at lower rates, and this has to
do with access to therapy resources. Representation does matter, So
people tend to hesitate to meet with somebody and disclose
their life story to them when it's somebody that they
feel like can't relate to them, when it's somebody that
doesn't really look like them. On top of the stigma
in certain communities, UM, that really contributes to people of color,
(32:38):
women of color seeking therapy at a lower rate. So
some communities will will say go to church or pray instead,
and you know, that's great too, But I just also
think it's important for people to know that, you know,
you can have rchando therapists, you can have medication and meditation,
you can you know, have all of it. And if
(32:58):
if representation matters to you, then it's important to go
on certain platforms to find therapist that cater specifically to
the community that you're in. Are there any that just
off the top of your head and no, biggie if
not that you know of, UM, whether Instagram profiles that
are just feel good or cater to certain communities, websites,
podcast you know, I really like Mina Be on Instagram.
(33:23):
I don't know if you've heard of her. She's a
close colleague of mine, so and her her page is
really great for therapeutic information directed towards people of color
as well. And then there's therapy for black girls. I
mentioned that before, if you're looking for a therapist UM
in the in that area. And then there's also Asian
Asian mental health therapy. It's another one. And UM speaking
(33:46):
specifically to accessibility issues right, whether UM virtual versus in
role life UM, navigating the space as a personal color,
whether you're queer, immigrant, in first gin is an entirely
different conversation. How specific can we get is what I'm
asking when it comes to finding a therapist for us M.
(34:07):
Are there spaces that cater to making sure that you
feel covered, protected, heard, and seen no matter which of
those categories you identify with. Yes, I think you can
get as specific as you want to get. You know,
I mentioned this earlier too. There's another platform called Inclusive
therapist dot com, and that platform, I believe highlights the
intersectionality of the individual experience. So I'm a woman of
(34:29):
color and I'm also first gen and I'm also were
or highlights the different intersectionalities and so that's a platform
that people can use to find a therapist more kind
of specific and personalized approach. And let's say it's hard.
Let's say it's hard to find somebody that looks like
you or understands exactly your experience. This is where it's
important in the initial consultation to say, listen, I'm a
(34:52):
first generation immigrant and my last therapist told me to
set boundaries with my family. But to be honest, that
doesn't work in my community. Would would you give a
different approach? Can you understand this because it's not one
size fits all? Right? I really like how you you
reframe that. Yeah, it really is like okay, well you're
really taking this consultation seriously, like you should like your
(35:13):
therapist or potential therapists should be able to step up
with an answer to that question. Okay, and this is
a big question, an awkward one. But how do we
fire our therapists if you decide this isn't working out
or I just want to stop, or I never want
to talk to this person again. How do we do
(35:33):
it without feeling bad or making it any more painful
or awkward? And it has to be so as mentioned before,
I want everyone to remember that these awkward conversations are
practiced for real life. So they're going to prepare us
for having an awkward conversations outside of the therapy room.
And you get to decide, do I need this to
be a phone call, like you just call my therapist
(35:55):
and say this isn't working out. I decided I need
somebody with a different approach, or these are things that
you did that I don't feel comfortable with and I
don't want to continue our relationship together. You can be
direct if you need to, or do you want to
schedule a session to process it and say goodbye this
Your approach depends entirely on why you're firing your therapist.
If your therapist doesn't feel safe for you. If you
(36:17):
haven't felt heard, if you've tried multiple times, then a
phone call might be sufficient. But if it's for other
reasons and you really like this person, but you've just
learned everything you needed to learn from them, and you
now you need someone with a different approach, I do
recommend having just a final session to say goodbye. Got it? Okay?
(36:40):
Fast forwarding to when we have the therapist, We've got
our person, We're feeling good about it. I'm curious to
know are their rules of engagement? Like? What can people
expect when you sit down with your therapist? Is it
just as simple as be honest, be vulnerable? Is there
such thing as building trust with your therapists before you
get to a point where you open up? Or should
we just dump it all out on the table on
(37:01):
day one? I like that, you know, gosh, I am
such that don't give it all to me, Give it
all to me day one. Don't hold on uh? And
then there are people who struggle with trust, and they
go in there and they are not comfortable saying anything,
and I think it's important to express that, you know,
I don't know where to begin, I don't know what
to say. And then the therapist can take the lead.
(37:22):
I think it's a really beautiful dance that you guys
develop as you get to know each other. But trust
does have to be built. Trust absolutely does have to
be built for this to work. Is how important please
talk about, just very briefly, how important it is to
not lie to your therapist. Um. Specifically, because I had
a person who shall not be named who was in therapy. Um. Okay,
(37:48):
so I had someone I may have been dating who
was lying again and cheating and all the things, and
so he was in therapy. This is from eons. I
go wait, wait, wait, wait wait back in the day, um,
and he was telling me how he was in therapy
and I am like, changing my ways, never really working
on myself. And I'm like, it's good for you. That's
(38:08):
so awesome, that's so great. We'd caught up maybe like
a few months later, and um, he goes, so my
therapist just found out about all my cheating and my
lying and my whatever. And I'm like, wait, what are
you talking about the last few months? The therapist was like,
wait what, we have so much more work to do.
(38:30):
And then she just rolled up her sleeves and get
to work. But it blew in my mind that you know,
he could spend three months just kind of shooting the ship,
not really being honest about the worst of him or
the things that he wanted to work on. He wanted
to seem like a good guy to the therapist, which
is bizarre, but I think that's people could well. I
think that speaks also volumes to his ability to compartmentalize,
(38:53):
to like look somebody in the eye and just pretend. Right,
That speaks volumes to that your own there. Yeah, there's
a line. That's a whole another right, But you don't
lie to your therapist. You know, it's your time, it's
your money. You don't gain anything when you're not sharing
you know the depths of your truth. Now, if you're
(39:15):
lying to your therapist because your therapist feel sketchy and
has said some things that don't resonate or as judgmental,
then maybe we want to explore a little bit about
why you're not being honest with your therapist. But if
you're not being honest with your therapist because you feel
shame or you feel judgment, you really just want to
know that this is a safe space. It's a space
wearing you can benefit from being honest right, and you
(39:38):
brought up you know, if your therapist seems a little sketchy.
I think this is an important conversation or question to
ask is what if we are in a space with
a therapist and they say something that makes us feel uncomfortable,
how should we address it? When do we know that
a line has been crossed? Because maybe I'm just down
the couch to therapy and it's getting uncomfortable for me.
(39:58):
But what do we do if we feel like it's inappropriate? Okay,
So it's one of the things that popped up in
my mind. Is therapy, the relationship that you have with
your therapist. It is the dress rehearsal for the relationships
that you have outside of therapy. So the ability to
be vulnerable until your therapist, I didn't like the way
you said that, or this is how it came off
(40:20):
to me. For me, that's all healing. That is still healing,
because that's going to prepare you to also have vulnerable
and different conversations outside of those doors. The hope is
your therapist can respond in a way that is corrective
because that provides you know, that internal healing. If your
therapist doesn't and continues to make you feel unsafe, then
(40:42):
you can decide if you want to continue or if
you want to find somebody else. And how do you know,
if do we ever know when we're done with therapy?
Like some people are like, I'm healed, I'm good, that's
a wrap. And then some people are like, this is
the thing that I'll be doing for the rest of
my life because I just like it. I'm one of
those people. I feel like I always kind of want
I might go ebb and flow, like I go through
(41:03):
chapters and really being committed, and then maybe I'll stop
down for a few months and I'll pick back up.
But how do you do you have a recommendation around
how people should approach the appecia to be situational? Should
someone just always have someone to go to just to
kind of, you know, download on your life. So there's
different ways you can look at therapy. There's the medical
(41:24):
model right where it's like here's a diagnosis, and here's
our treatment plan, and here our goals and when you
meet your goals, you're done, right, And so there's the
medical model, and then there's the people who don't subscribe
to the medical model, which is um you know, we
tend to work with clients who come in and out
whenever they please. You can be with me for a
few years. Maybe you want to take another year break
(41:45):
and I see you again next year. Uh. It really
depends on your personality and what you need. And there
are some people who create goals in therapy. Right Maybe
they're feeling depressed or anxious and then they don't anymore,
and then they still come because they want to self
for pluck like and you said download. So it just depends, um,
what feels right for you. But there is no right
(42:05):
or wrong way to do therapy. If you're in therapy
for fifteen years doesn't mean anything other than you're in
therapy for fifteen years. Yeah, so here here to that. Yeah,
I love it. This is such a This is like
a short and sweet combo. But I think it's so
important just for people, especially those who are thinking about it.
But like maybe a little bit too shy to like ask, um,
(42:27):
this is your sign. I'm such a big advocate, y'all know,
I talk about it all the time. Um, So at
the very least, like look into your options, see what
they are, um, Leah, Like we mentioned you are a therapist,
you have a strong social presence too. If people want
to reach out to you, where can they find you?
They can find me on Instagram a Listenery Wellness and
then the rest of my contact information is up there too. Okay,
(42:49):
sounds good. And lastly, what would you say? I just
want to open up the floor to you, to anyone listening,
someone who might be considering therapy and is hesitant for
whatever reason. Um, maybe we're already in it, but you
want words for the wise, like what would you say
to all of us? What? What final thoughts would you share?
You know, my final thought is such a therapist, it's
a it's a question. It's like what do you have
(43:10):
to lose? What do you have to lose? Well, thank
you so much, Leah. It was great to have you
back on the show. Y'all go follower a listener ree
Wellness on Instagram and Facebook. Thank you, Thank you, h happy,
Thank you again Leah for joining us on the podcast.
(43:31):
Such a great conversation. I hope that it gave you
some clarity as you begin or maybe even restart your
therapy journey. For all of the resources that you know
we talked about, you can head over to Hot Happy
Mess dot com and we'll share it in the show notes.
And also that's where you can submit your story as
a real woman or a WTF confession or hashtag. Asked
Zuri whether it's home design, love, sex, careers, you name it,
(43:53):
I'll answer. So stay tuned. We've got more episodes coming
every Wednesday. And in the meantime, share this episode Old
with a friend if you liked it, if you think
that they might like it, or be looking for a therapist.
And yeah, follow me on Instagram at Zuri Hall and
at Hot Happy Mess and I'll talk to you over
there in the meantime and see you next Wednesday. Bye bye,
(44:16):
bye bye
Hot Happy Mess. Celebrate your magic in the middle of
life's messes Happy. I'm Zeri Hall and this is hot
Happy Man. Shoot. What is up? Welcome back to another
episode of Hot Happy Mess. I'm your host Zuri Hall,
(00:30):
who is newly back from her much needed euroad trip,
a lovely vacation. Not just Europe, also London because Brexit.
Um so, I was in the UK and Europe for
about ten days. I flew out to Nice and then
ended up at a resort about twenty minutes south of there.
(00:51):
I was honored to be asked to host a charity
gala for a really important cause. Patrick Muratu Blues an
amazing tennis co which he has a resort, his own
resort in Tennis Academy and the shomp Seed Foundation which
helps empower young tennis talent to follow in the footsteps
(01:11):
of the greats like Serena, Williams, Venus, Williams um and
so many others. Serena actually being one of the tennis
stars that Patrick coached. I flew out there, I lived
my best can life and it was beautiful. Oh my god,
I need more time there. Um. I only got to
spend a proper day and a half in can and
(01:32):
it is just gorgeous. The water is so blue. We
took a boat for a day trip to Sancho Pay
and lived our best life at Nicki Beach um and
had all of the Don Juleo nineteen forty two and
I'm getting old. I was like, oh, yeah, this isn't
the thing that I can just do and recover quickly
from anymore, not to sell. Uh. So that was really cool.
(01:54):
And then what I'm really proud of is I decided
to solo travel, uh for the rest of my vacation.
You know, I've talked with friends. I was flirting with
the idea of going with a friend for the entire
length of the vacation. But for whatever reason, I can't
say for sure why it was on my spirit to
just go by myself and then rendezvous with you know, friends, homies,
(02:16):
acquaintances in the various cities and countries that I was in.
But I kind of liked the idea of marching to
the beat of my own drum and just being where
I wanted to be when I wanted to be there.
You know, when you travel with people, whether it's a
group or just one person, it's like kind of have
to negotiate right what you're gonna do each day, or
where you're gonna go next, or what parties or what
types of restaurants which can be fun, or if you're
(02:39):
with this type of really cool, super chill friend who's like, Okay,
have fun, I'll see you tomorrow, Like who knows. But
I just kind of wanted to do my own thing.
So I was in the south of France for a
few amazing days and then I flew up to Paris
and spent two nights at the most gorgeous hotel. Uh
like one of my favorites. I splurged, y'all. I was
like who, But then I was like, you deserve this, Okay.
(03:03):
This was my one significant vacation of the summer um
of this year so far, um where I'm actually getting
away for an extended amount of time. So I was like,
we're doing it. So I booked a five star stay
for two nights in Paris at then Lynskey Paris, and
I highly recommend it. Oh my god, go follow me
on Instagram and you'll see some highlights um from Paris
(03:27):
and from the hotel and just like that entire experience
and don't get it twisted, that was not gifted, that
was not a pr anything that came out of the pocket.
And for half a second I was like Z, just
because like I the more I UM, not the older
I get. I'm just I'm in a point in my
life where I'm just you know, being super locked in
(03:47):
and serious about my financial goals. So I could. I
certainly could do it and had earned the right to
do it based on how hard I've been working. But
I was just in that mindset. But then I was like,
you know what, I'm doing it, So if I'm gonna
do it, then just f and do it and no guilt. No,
I probably should have just done this instead, like, uh,
(04:09):
we're not doing that. If you decide to do something,
if you decided to treat yourself, if you're gonna do it,
you might as well go all in, you feel me,
If you're gonna spend the money, you might as well
smile spending it, cry later. And that's my perspective on
that um. But anyways, it was amazing. There's father pool.
I got one of the best massages I've ever had
in my life, and then I just sort of perused
(04:32):
and wandered aimlessly in the streets of Paris. I was
in there. They at the first like the first district
or area, which is so perfectly located, I mean walking
distance to the Louver Museum and uh To Opera and
so many other cool places. So highly recommend you guys
(04:53):
check out that hotel um if you're ever in the
mood to splurge in Paris. But also a lot of
really great hotels in the mid range to like. Um.
Sometimes I'll go to hotel tonight dot com for last
minute bookings and then you can sometimes get a good
deal um on a hotel. You can just put in
wet star level you want three, four or five whatever um,
(05:15):
and then sometimes will score a last minute booking UM.
So that was awesome. Then after Paris, I flew to
London and live my best life there. I stayed at
the Dean Street Townhouse, which was so just cozy and
lived in and had an understated elegance to it, and
it was perfectly centered in the heart of Soho. Um.
(05:36):
The Soho House there is amazing UM. And I had
a really great time. And what was so cool about
solo traveling is I got I met all these amazing
people at the Gala in the South of France and
we hit it off. And then it turned out that
like half of the gala was headed to London to
hang out to some a lot of them lived there,
and we're just in the South of France for the
(05:56):
charity gala um and so I got invited to a
couple of really cool party is in London, and so
it all just sort of came together. And it's because
I left room. I left space for, you know, the
magic to happen, Like whatever was going to be was
going to be. I didn't even book my flights to
Paris until I was already in the South of France,
because I was like, who knows, Maybe I'll wake up
and decide I don't want to fly to Paris. Maybe
(06:17):
I want to fly to Santorini or Micanos or Sardinia,
like who knows. In the end, I wanted to fly
to Paris. But it was a great time. So I
feel rested, I feel good, I feel excited to get
back to work. And that's how I know that the
vacation was needed and that it did what it was
supposed to do, because it wasn't really a relaxing, slow vacation.
(06:39):
I wasn't just lounging on a beach for a week.
Lord knows I could use that, and I do have
a few days coming up for that. But it was
restorative and that I was seeing new things and eating
new foods and meeting new people and dusting off languages
that I haven't tried to speak in years, and I
don't know, I just felt so alive, Like I'm a
person I realized who threw lives in adventure and change
(07:03):
and freedom and travel and new experiences and that's just
always going to be a part of my life. And
I've I've learned to embrace that, you know, like you
get to a certain age and I have wondered if
sometimes the people around me, and just a few people
might think, oh, like is this is the time to
be settling down and slowing down and just building a
(07:25):
home life. And I'm loving that part of it right,
I'm loving nesting in my first home. Oh. By the way,
go follow home Body Hall on Instagram. That's where I'm
going to be sharing all of my home renovations, home
decorating transformations in the house. I'm about to start the backyard,
heard up all the things. So follow home Body Hall
(07:45):
if you want to get an inside look at the
home buying process and um renovation process, and you can
go check out my episode back in the day when
I first bought my house, uh and kind of gave
you guys the nitty gritty on that. So anyway, back
to whatever I was talking about, Yeah, I've just realized
I'm one of those people like, ideally, in a perfect world,
(08:06):
once I'm married, once I have children, UM, things that
I very much look forward to when the time is right,
that baby is about to just get on my back
and we gotta go. We gotta hop this flight, because
I don't think your world has to center around or
constrict with this new life. Granted, things will certainly change,
and they are the top priority, but I very much
(08:30):
am of the mind that, you know, the child, the
children become a part of the life and the lifestyle
that you've built and want to build for not just
yourself now but your family, and that can look however
you wanted to look. So I feel like me paying
the kids, they're just gonna be running around trying not
to miss flights. In a perfect world A couple of
(08:51):
times a year. I say that now and talk to
me in ten years and I'll be like, oh my god,
I haven't left the house in six months. Is there
light out there? But anyways, I'm back from Europe. I
loved it. I hope you are having an amazing summer
so far. Speaking of summer, I asked for submissions for
a hot, happy mess official drink and snack of the summer,
and Sheyla gave a really great suggestion, apper all betties.
(09:16):
I didn't even know what that was. I've heard of
an apperall sprits, but she says, an apperall Betty is
an app is apper all o J pineapple, prosecco and
a splash of sprite with charcuterie boards heavy on the
summer fruit and light cheese is all summer long. So
Sheyla Shane Nikki twenty two, Thank you, queen. I love it.
I love it, I love it. I'm gonna try to
(09:36):
make one this week, maybe this weekend, to toast to
my reunion with his home here in l A peek
back on the patio with the puppy and chill. So
thank you for what will now be our official drink
of summer, The Apparell Betty, brought to you by Sheila
and Decide of Charcouterie. Okay, so this month is BIPOP
Mental Health Awareness Month, and we have a ton of
(09:58):
great episodes coming your way that are going to give
you tools that you may need that you probably want
to create balance and to establish boundaries and manifest happiness
and find peace. Most importantly, because if you've been listening
to this podcast for any length of time, you know
that is really what it's all about. That's what I
(10:20):
am in a state of seeking or trying to continue
to maintain. Right, the whole point is to not feel
like you're seeking and striving so much, but to kind
of get to a place of non striving and contentment
with what is, and gratitude for what is, and you know,
hope and positivity around the idea of what might be.
So in today's episode, we're talking about how to find
(10:43):
a therapist because it can be hardest. Our expert will
share the different types of therapy treatment, the importance of
finding an inclusive therapist that understands your reality, and also
why you shouldn't gost your therapist. Not cool, bro, But
I will say finding a therapist for me, I've had
a few therapists in my life. Um. A couple who
are really great, like life changing um, and I will
(11:05):
just say, like, don't give up. Right, It's the same
as dating a little bit. You gotta go through a
couple at least to sort of know what you want,
what works, what doesn't. Maybe you want a more hands
on approach, you want homework assigned, you want someone to
really hold you accountable and challenge you lovingly or thoughtfully.
And then some people are just like, just listen to
(11:26):
me talk. I just need somebody to talk to you
for an hour each week because I don't have that
person and I wanted to be you, you know, And
so maybe it's more talk therapy. But I have finally
gotten to a point where I have an amazing therapist.
She's awesome. It feels collaborative. I'm a person who likes
a little bit of homework without a lot because I
don't have a lot of time. Um, But I do
like to feel that I'm growing and being thoughtfully and
(11:50):
kindly challenged a little bit. To reconsider some of my
ideas and not even reconsidered them in a in a
are you wrong or right way zuri, but reconsider my
ideas around who I am and what I believe and
and my therapist that I'm with now has really helps
me embrace a lot more of who I am and
(12:11):
not just be okay with but celebrate the things about
me that someone else might be confused by or not
understand or disagree with. Um. But I'm learning, I've been
learning for years, but especially now, to have a lot
more grace with myself and also a lot more pride
and acceptance in who I am and what I bring
(12:34):
to the table and what I want and to not apologize,
to be unapologetic in all of that and who I
am and who I want around me, and also being
able to let things go or walk away from things
where people who no longer serve whatever my north star is.
And that can be really difficult, especially when you're a
(12:55):
people pleaser, as I've been for most of my life,
varying degrees, and a lot of can relate to that.
I'm sure a lot of you can relate to that.
But yeah, that's sort of my therapy journey these days.
I'm loving it. It's good. It's good. It's good, and
I hope you find the therapist that you're looking for
if you haven't already. So without further Ado, let's get
the combos started. Here's Leah, She's back. Liamankow is a
(13:19):
licensed mental health therapist and group practice owner based in
Sherman Oaks, California. She specializes in treating anxiety, depression, and trauma,
as well as helping her clients connect with their inner child.
Last year, she was a guest on our do You
or your Partner Have Communication, commitment or Trust Issues? Episode,
which is one of our most popular episodes to date.
(13:40):
So Leah, welcome back, Thank you for having me. I'm
excited to chat again, and I'm excited about this topic.
Yeah yeah, before we dive in, which is going to
happen really quickly here, guys, but just really quickly share
your background for those who may be listening to you
for the first time on our podcast. Um, what's a
little bit of your specialty and why did you become
a therapists? Sure? So, I'm a license clinical social worker,
(14:02):
which basically means I'm a license psychotherapist and in private practice,
I own a group practice and I kind of therapy
found me. I actually went to school, the School of
Social Work at USC because I wanted to do more
advocacy and programming but then my internships were all clinical,
they were all one on one, and I really fell
in love with the field of therapy and graduate school.
But it was not my intention to be a therapist. Okay,
(14:25):
so sort of a natural evolution, as life tends to
to do for us. I'm grateful that we're having this conversation,
particularly because traditionally there's been a lot of stigma around,
you know, going to therapy, particularly when you think about
communities or families of color. I feel like that stigma
is starting to live, which is really encouraging when I
(14:45):
see more conversations online, especially about getting a therapist, finding
someone to talk to, someone to support you. Um, but
I'm curious to know what are some of the the
initial pushbacks you often hear about why someone might not
want a therapist. Oh, I don't really need it because
this or that. Well, it's like what you initially said,
(15:07):
it's the stigma. So there's this idea that you're either
weak or quote unquote crazy. I don't like that word.
If you're seeing a therapist, like, there's this idea that
there's something wrong with you. And I think in certain
communities there's this like pick yourself up by the bootstraps
mentality that if you can't figure it out on your own,
then you know, it's not a good look. It's not
a good look. So that's one of the reasons why
(15:30):
people push back on it. And then there there's also
I think misconceptions on what therapy is because sometimes people
will say things like, oh, I can just talk to
my best friend, or I can talk to my partner,
or I can just go to church and it's just
not the same thing, or I go to the gym.
The gym is my therapy, right, And so as you
said that, because I think that all the clubs remove
all of the pressure and expectations sometimes we put on
(15:53):
the other people in our life, like I cannot be
your best friend, your mama, your therapist, you're all these things,
like otherwise I'm not doing any one of those things
particularly well. Um, I think people always feel like a
therapist has to be someone who swoops in to save
the day for a very specific reason, writes the prescription
or to suggest someone who can rather than it out. Yeah,
(16:15):
and that's that's oftentimes how people see therapy as like
this crisis situation too. So obviously, you know, we have
seen a lot of that stigma traditionally, but slowly but surely,
more people are talking about it and being more open
about the role mental health struggles and journeys towards therapy.
Who would you say therapy is for? Why should someone
anyone sign up? I think that therapy is for everybody,
(16:38):
as cliche as that sounds so earlier we talked about
the misconception is you need to be in a crisis
in order to go see a therapist. But the opposite
can also be true. You can use therapy as a
space for personal growth reflection because we don't know what
we don't know and a therapist. What I like to
see as of therapy is it's a person that holds
(16:59):
up a mirror to our blind spots. We all have
blind spots. We all have blind spots. So it's a
person that can hold up a mirror and help us
see things about ourselves and our interactions that we can't
see with the naked eye. And when it comes to
different types, you know, like some people are like, Oh,
I'm big into talk therapy on and I need something
a little bit more concrete. You've got CBT, hypnotherapy, all
(17:20):
of the different options available to us UM and sort
of how it all works. Yeah, I like that, you
know the different names, yes, yeah, So there are these
different evidence based practices. But therapy in general is talk therapy,
so you talk about your feelings, you talk about your thoughts,
(17:42):
your schemas, and the therapist helps you correct any kind
of errors in your thinking. And then within therapy we
have evidence based practices. So there's these are specific therapeutic
modalities that are meant to treat specific mental health disorders.
So CBT is probably, I believe, the most effective tree
right now for people who suffer from depression anxiety, and
(18:04):
CBT as a structured approach. Its stands for cognitive behavior therapy,
and it helps you recognize thought patterns that are keeping
you stuck in certain cycles. Because people of depression anxiety
tend to have more rigid thinking, very inflexible, and they're thinking.
CBT actually is an approach that teaches you how to
be more flexible than the way you see things, got it?
(18:27):
Any other ones that you think are probably the most
common that people might gravitate towards. So then there's also
e M d R therapy. Have you heard of the
m d R? I have remote? What does this stand
for I movement, desensitization and reprocessing. Okay, so this is
ritz Harry just talk about this, Do Prince Harry? Oh
(18:48):
he did? I don't know. I think he just did
a massive sit down talking about mental health and some
of them sort of more innovative therapeutic practices that he tried.
I think at the encourage been of Meg and Markel.
He was. It was on a podcast. I'll have to
double check, but I'm pretty sure it was E. D.
M R. Okay. So this is for people who it's
(19:09):
like I've been to therapy, I've talked about it, but
I still get these intense feelings or I still can't
stop these patterns that I'm doing. Right, So this is
for people. It treats trauma and it uses your eye
movements and going back and forth to help you recall
some of the experiences that you've been through that might
have been suppressed or repressed. Interesting, so that the very
(19:32):
action of that eye movement could actually trigger thoughts that
otherwise you can tucked away. Exactly. It can trigger thoughts, feelings, images,
sensations in the body that might have been tucked away
and that might have been experienced during a certain time
in your life where you might have had a traumatic
thing happened, really and this is something like backed by research?
(19:52):
Is this so knew that it's still you know, we're
waiting to see what steadies show this is. It's both
so it is relatively new compared to the other evidence
based practices. But what the studies have been showing is
that it has been effective to treat ptsday and there
are still studies going got it, got it? Okay? Um.
(20:12):
Sometimes people use the words interchangeably. You're just incorrectly myself included,
and often the therapist, psychologist, psychiatrists. One of the biggest
difference is psychiatrists prescribed in that yes, that's it, and
then you have people and then you have people like
(20:33):
me who are licensed clinical social workers that are therapists,
and then you have psychologists. So I'm a master's level clinician,
and then psychologists have their PhDs so they can do
additional things like psychological testing and other stuff that master's
levels clinicians can't do, but all all can provide therapy.
(20:54):
I'm curious to know what are your thoughts on when
it comes to finding a therapist for part or ship
like couples therapy, right, because you always get one half
of the couple that's like, I feel like he likes
you more than he likes me, or she's more on
your side ins So how do you go about navigating
finding a therapist as a couple. What I recommend for
(21:15):
people is, because you are a unit, you have to
find the therapist together. Usually there's one person in the
relationship that tends to do most of the emotional labor,
and that's the person who's going to find the therapist,
make the appointment, things like that, and those are probably
systems in the relationship that you're trying to disrupt. So
as a couple finding a therapist, it's important that you
both agree on the person that you're finding, and you
(21:38):
both talk about what you're looking for in therapy, and
you both want to make sure that the therapist that
you've both chosen is competent in the issues that you
guys are experiencing as a couple. And it happens. It happens.
It happens when a couple is like I think they
like she likes you more than she likes me, you
talk about in therapy, because that's usually representative of a
bigger issue anyway, right right, right, exactly. It is really
(22:01):
interesting how even your therapists can end up providing commentary
and your relationship based on how each partner reacts to
certain things in the personality of the therapist. Um, but
that hasn't been a tangent anyways, back to finding a
therapist for the first time. One, where do you recommend
people start with this journey? Should you reach out to
an insurance provider? Are their platforms or websites online that
(22:24):
make it easier to really customize how you find a
person because I always joke that, like one of the
most important decisions in my life is finding the right therapy.
It's like, forget about my partner. I need the right
person talking me through like the phases and chapters in
my life. But it's hard when it feels like such
(22:45):
a random crap shoot online to find the right person?
How do you do? And it is a random crap shoot?
I'm going to validate that it is because it's a
ton of people. It's like dating, though, you have to
find out who's going to be the best fit for you.
So to answer your first questions like where do you begin?
How do you start? I think you want to ask
yourself and be very honest, what's my budget? Because the
(23:07):
price for therapy really ranges, right, so if your budget
is relatively low and you are fortunate to have health
care insurance, then maybe using your health care insurance is
probably going to be the best route for you UM,
because you don't want it to be something that's financially
stressful either. Now let's say you're open to paying out
(23:27):
of pocket, then you kind of have more flexibility and
who you can call. There are websites like Psychology Today
dot com where you can narrow down by location, practices,
and I think you can even narrow down by race
and ethnicity if if I'm not mistaken. There's another website
called Open Path Collective dot org, and this is a
(23:48):
site for people who are on a budget, but they
have license therapist who slide their rate down as low
as thirty dollars a session, which is a very good
rate for therapy. So I recommend that to people who, um,
you know, we're out of pocket, maybe too difficult for them,
so Open Path Collective dot org. Then there's then there's
UM Therapy for Black Girls. Then there's Inclusive Therapist dot
(24:11):
com and then there's um Asian mental health therapy, so
there's a lot of directories that cater specifically to different communities. Awesome,
are there certain red flags that we should consider when
meeting with someone, Like when it comes to licenses certification,
Sometimes you'll get someone it's like, I'm a life coach,
but like not necessarily licensed and that's okay. That just
(24:32):
might be a different thing. How do we figure out
what to look for and be mindful of and when
is it totally okay to just kind of go with
whatever feels good. So sometimes it's so hard to detect
the red flag during the initial consultation. I recommend when
you're shopping for a therapist you ask for an initial
consultation and this is usually a ten to fifteen minute
free phone call where you share you know, what you're experiencing,
(24:55):
what you're wanting to process in therapy. And this is
also an opportunity for you to see how they respond
to you. Are they listening to you, are they attuned
to you? Are they asking you questions? Does their voice
sound gentle? Are they interrupting you? I'm a big energy person,
Like I'm a big energy person, so so for me,
it can be pretty easy to detect. Do I like
this person in ten minutes? Can I trust Can I
(25:16):
somewae trust this person in ten minutes? Um? So that
ten minute call can be very valuable. And sometimes in
those ten minutes you can't see the red flags. So
when you're already in it, red flags might look like
the therapist taking the time. And this sounds really gross,
but they take the time and session to talk about themselves.
Often they yeah, they take your problems and they relate
(25:37):
it back to themselves. Are it exists, and it exists,
and it exists. So it's very important people know about
it because if they've never been in therapy, they're going
to think that this is normal or this is okay,
and it's not. Um. So, it's a therapist that often
relates things back to themselves or talks about themselves, monopolizes
your time, doesn't really allow you space to express yourself.
(26:01):
It's a person that's judgmental. It's a person that texting
during session. It's a person that's I know people do
on Instagram. I did like a little Q and a
kind of just like tell me your therapist red flags
And these are all things people have shared and there
are all things I've heard so I can right therapists
(26:22):
pulled out the phone and started texting, Oh, I don't
know what I would do. People get comfortable. People get comfortable.
And another one is they're constantly rescheduling your appointment to
benefit themselves whatever. You know, they're not predictable, consistent. Yeah,
and that respects your time. They're showing up late, they're
(26:42):
ending early, things like that. Yeah. Are there certain questions
that you recommend we ask during the consultation. You know,
it's kind of like, how do I know if this
persons are right fit for me or not? If I've
never had therapy, Like what do I need in therapy?
Are there certain questions that can help you figure out
if the vibe is right? You can ask, you know,
you can share this is what I'm going through, X, Y,
(27:04):
and Z, and then you can ask you do you
have experience in treating this? You can ask how many
years of experience do you have treating this? What is
your approach? If you kind of know that you're gonna
need coping skills and homework during the week, you can
ask do you give homework? Do you teach coping skills?
Are you more of a therapist that listens and reflects,
or do you ask questions that's going to make me think?
(27:25):
So those are all appropriate things to ask, but I
think it's very important to ask them to say to them,
this is what I'm going through. Do you have experience
of that? And um so, I own a group practice,
right and I have employees, I have therapists, and I
do all of the consultation calls on behalf of my employees,
and people are very I think it's you want to
be as direct as possible. So people say things like,
(27:48):
you know, do they have experience in addressing racial trauma?
Do they have what is their stance on the current
social issues that are going on right now? And will
this be a safe space for me? It is whatever
you're going through, you can ask it because it's a
lot of money and it's your time and you don't
want to waste it, so you want to know those
appetures up front. So I don't think anything is off limits.
And that consultation, No, I love that really really great
(28:10):
things to think about, and you're right, it's your money
and pretty you have a right to have some expectators
around that feeling good for you and feeling like the
right choice. I'm curious to know, you know. I always
ask like the hairstyle is who can't do their own hair?
Is so picky? Like the makeup artist who's like, oh
my gosh, my makeup is always whatever. How is it
(28:33):
as a therapist seeking out a therapist? Like is it
harder for you because your standards are just so high? Um?
Is it easier because you know what you're looking for?
Are you? And that toss? But the thing that you do?
So if I can speak to myself personally, I started
seeing a therapist before I became a therapist, So I
think I kind of just like got grandfathered in and
it's been the same person for a long time. So
(28:56):
this person is seen grow from grad school to where
I'm at today, right, Um, other people, what I've noticed
kind of just the difference people who tend to start
to see therapist kind of after they've become therapists, then
their standards tend to be a little bit higher or
it's almost like there you're playing chess with your therapist.
It becomes a lot harder to find somebody. But what
(29:18):
also makes it tricky is the community is also so small.
It can be so smalse and it's hard to find
somebody that doesn't know somebody you know, So it does
get tricky in that way. But what you're saying does
happen to a lot of therapists or it gets a
little hard. Yeah. One of my girlfriends was joking that
she ends up psychoanalyzing herself in her session with her
(29:38):
She also is one to the point that she's like, Okay,
I gotta snap od on it because I'll be sitting
here judging my therapists assessment. Yeah, what's going on. You
can predict their line of questioning and where they're going
to where they're going with it. Well, fascinating stuff. And
you talked a little bit about different care providers, different platforms, um,
(30:02):
is there one that you personally prefer over the others?
You know, Better Help is a really big one. Talk
therapy is another one. I've actually used better Help before,
um during the pandemic actually when I was looking for
a new therapist, and that obviously made it much easier
to do. Is there anything that you recommend or any
sort of free or affordable community services people can look
into If money is a bit more of an issue, Oh,
(30:25):
that's a good question. So in terms of what platform
I recommend, I don't you know, endorse any specific one
because they're all very different. And you mentioned Better Help,
and I think you know that is perfect also for
the person who's busy, right, because I what I hear
about Better Help, I could be wrong, is like they're
very accessible. The therapist on Better Help are very accessible, um,
and so it's good for the person who's on the go.
(30:48):
And if money is an issue, I recommend finding clinics
in the area. Oftentimes clinics backed by government resources provide
free there so if you have medical, if you have medical,
I think a therapy is free for you and you
just have to find a clinic that accepts medical, and
(31:08):
there's several of them. You can also find private practices
that have interns or unlicensed therapists, and their their rates
are usually much lower than the therapists who are licensed,
and their work is just as good, but because they're
not licensed, they charge at a different rate. So get
going to the beauty school for the haircut. There's somebody
(31:30):
else graduation like they still know what they're doing. But
that's exactly it. Okay, So I want to zero in
a little bit particularly for the women of color who
may be listening. People of color, UM, it can be
particularly difficult to find a therapist that we feel understands
(31:53):
us in sort of a cultural context around a lot
of our struggles. UM, what do you know of or
what have you seen in the community of people who
go to therapy or are considering it and also of color.
Are their disparities in that space? Yeah? There there absolutely
our disparities in that space. Typically, people of color tend
(32:14):
to seek therapy at lower rates, and this has to
do with access to therapy resources. Representation does matter, So
people tend to hesitate to meet with somebody and disclose
their life story to them when it's somebody that they
feel like can't relate to them, when it's somebody that
doesn't really look like them. On top of the stigma
in certain communities, UM, that really contributes to people of color,
(32:38):
women of color seeking therapy at a lower rate. So
some communities will will say go to church or pray instead,
and you know, that's great too, But I just also
think it's important for people to know that, you know,
you can have rchando therapists, you can have medication and meditation,
you can you know, have all of it. And if
(32:58):
if representation matters to you, then it's important to go
on certain platforms to find therapist that cater specifically to
the community that you're in. Are there any that just
off the top of your head and no, biggie if
not that you know of, UM, whether Instagram profiles that
are just feel good or cater to certain communities, websites,
podcast you know, I really like Mina Be on Instagram.
(33:23):
I don't know if you've heard of her. She's a
close colleague of mine, so and her her page is
really great for therapeutic information directed towards people of color
as well. And then there's therapy for black girls. I
mentioned that before, if you're looking for a therapist UM
in the in that area. And then there's also Asian
Asian mental health therapy. It's another one. And UM speaking
(33:46):
specifically to accessibility issues right, whether UM virtual versus in
role life UM, navigating the space as a personal color,
whether you're queer, immigrant, in first gin is an entirely
different conversation. How specific can we get is what I'm
asking when it comes to finding a therapist for us M.
(34:07):
Are there spaces that cater to making sure that you
feel covered, protected, heard, and seen no matter which of
those categories you identify with. Yes, I think you can
get as specific as you want to get. You know,
I mentioned this earlier too. There's another platform called Inclusive
therapist dot com, and that platform, I believe highlights the
intersectionality of the individual experience. So I'm a woman of
(34:29):
color and I'm also first gen and I'm also were
or highlights the different intersectionalities and so that's a platform
that people can use to find a therapist more kind
of specific and personalized approach. And let's say it's hard.
Let's say it's hard to find somebody that looks like
you or understands exactly your experience. This is where it's
important in the initial consultation to say, listen, I'm a
(34:52):
first generation immigrant and my last therapist told me to
set boundaries with my family. But to be honest, that
doesn't work in my community. Would would you give a
different approach? Can you understand this because it's not one
size fits all? Right? I really like how you you
reframe that. Yeah, it really is like okay, well you're
really taking this consultation seriously, like you should like your
(35:13):
therapist or potential therapists should be able to step up
with an answer to that question. Okay, and this is
a big question, an awkward one. But how do we
fire our therapists if you decide this isn't working out
or I just want to stop, or I never want
to talk to this person again. How do we do
(35:33):
it without feeling bad or making it any more painful
or awkward? And it has to be so as mentioned before,
I want everyone to remember that these awkward conversations are
practiced for real life. So they're going to prepare us
for having an awkward conversations outside of the therapy room.
And you get to decide, do I need this to
be a phone call, like you just call my therapist
(35:55):
and say this isn't working out. I decided I need
somebody with a different approach, or these are things that
you did that I don't feel comfortable with and I
don't want to continue our relationship together. You can be
direct if you need to, or do you want to
schedule a session to process it and say goodbye this
Your approach depends entirely on why you're firing your therapist.
If your therapist doesn't feel safe for you. If you
(36:17):
haven't felt heard, if you've tried multiple times, then a
phone call might be sufficient. But if it's for other
reasons and you really like this person, but you've just
learned everything you needed to learn from them, and you
now you need someone with a different approach, I do
recommend having just a final session to say goodbye. Got it? Okay?
(36:40):
Fast forwarding to when we have the therapist, We've got
our person, We're feeling good about it. I'm curious to
know are their rules of engagement? Like? What can people
expect when you sit down with your therapist? Is it
just as simple as be honest, be vulnerable? Is there
such thing as building trust with your therapists before you
get to a point where you open up? Or should
we just dump it all out on the table on
(37:01):
day one? I like that, you know, gosh, I am
such that don't give it all to me, Give it
all to me day one. Don't hold on uh? And
then there are people who struggle with trust, and they
go in there and they are not comfortable saying anything,
and I think it's important to express that, you know,
I don't know where to begin, I don't know what
to say. And then the therapist can take the lead.
(37:22):
I think it's a really beautiful dance that you guys
develop as you get to know each other. But trust
does have to be built. Trust absolutely does have to
be built for this to work. Is how important please
talk about, just very briefly, how important it is to
not lie to your therapist. Um. Specifically, because I had
a person who shall not be named who was in therapy. Um. Okay,
(37:48):
so I had someone I may have been dating who
was lying again and cheating and all the things, and
so he was in therapy. This is from eons. I
go wait, wait, wait, wait wait back in the day, um,
and he was telling me how he was in therapy
and I am like, changing my ways, never really working
on myself. And I'm like, it's good for you. That's
(38:08):
so awesome, that's so great. We'd caught up maybe like
a few months later, and um, he goes, so my
therapist just found out about all my cheating and my
lying and my whatever. And I'm like, wait, what are
you talking about the last few months? The therapist was like,
wait what, we have so much more work to do.
(38:30):
And then she just rolled up her sleeves and get
to work. But it blew in my mind that you know,
he could spend three months just kind of shooting the ship,
not really being honest about the worst of him or
the things that he wanted to work on. He wanted
to seem like a good guy to the therapist, which
is bizarre, but I think that's people could well. I
think that speaks also volumes to his ability to compartmentalize,
(38:53):
to like look somebody in the eye and just pretend. Right,
That speaks volumes to that your own there. Yeah, there's
a line. That's a whole another right, But you don't
lie to your therapist. You know, it's your time, it's
your money. You don't gain anything when you're not sharing
you know the depths of your truth. Now, if you're
(39:15):
lying to your therapist because your therapist feel sketchy and
has said some things that don't resonate or as judgmental,
then maybe we want to explore a little bit about
why you're not being honest with your therapist. But if
you're not being honest with your therapist because you feel
shame or you feel judgment, you really just want to
know that this is a safe space. It's a space
wearing you can benefit from being honest right, and you
(39:38):
brought up you know, if your therapist seems a little sketchy.
I think this is an important conversation or question to
ask is what if we are in a space with
a therapist and they say something that makes us feel uncomfortable,
how should we address it? When do we know that
a line has been crossed? Because maybe I'm just down
the couch to therapy and it's getting uncomfortable for me.
(39:58):
But what do we do if we feel like it's inappropriate? Okay,
So it's one of the things that popped up in
my mind. Is therapy, the relationship that you have with
your therapist. It is the dress rehearsal for the relationships
that you have outside of therapy. So the ability to
be vulnerable until your therapist, I didn't like the way
you said that, or this is how it came off
(40:20):
to me. For me, that's all healing. That is still healing,
because that's going to prepare you to also have vulnerable
and different conversations outside of those doors. The hope is
your therapist can respond in a way that is corrective
because that provides you know, that internal healing. If your
therapist doesn't and continues to make you feel unsafe, then
(40:42):
you can decide if you want to continue or if
you want to find somebody else. And how do you know,
if do we ever know when we're done with therapy?
Like some people are like, I'm healed, I'm good, that's
a wrap. And then some people are like, this is
the thing that I'll be doing for the rest of
my life because I just like it. I'm one of
those people. I feel like I always kind of want
I might go ebb and flow, like I go through
(41:03):
chapters and really being committed, and then maybe I'll stop
down for a few months and I'll pick back up.
But how do you do you have a recommendation around
how people should approach the appecia to be situational? Should
someone just always have someone to go to just to
kind of, you know, download on your life. So there's
different ways you can look at therapy. There's the medical
(41:24):
model right where it's like here's a diagnosis, and here's
our treatment plan, and here our goals and when you
meet your goals, you're done, right, And so there's the
medical model, and then there's the people who don't subscribe
to the medical model, which is um you know, we
tend to work with clients who come in and out
whenever they please. You can be with me for a
few years. Maybe you want to take another year break
(41:45):
and I see you again next year. Uh. It really
depends on your personality and what you need. And there
are some people who create goals in therapy. Right Maybe
they're feeling depressed or anxious and then they don't anymore,
and then they still come because they want to self
for pluck like and you said download. So it just depends, um,
what feels right for you. But there is no right
(42:05):
or wrong way to do therapy. If you're in therapy
for fifteen years doesn't mean anything other than you're in
therapy for fifteen years. Yeah, so here here to that. Yeah,
I love it. This is such a This is like
a short and sweet combo. But I think it's so
important just for people, especially those who are thinking about it.
But like maybe a little bit too shy to like ask, um,
(42:27):
this is your sign. I'm such a big advocate, y'all know,
I talk about it all the time. Um, So at
the very least, like look into your options, see what
they are, um, Leah, Like we mentioned you are a therapist,
you have a strong social presence too. If people want
to reach out to you, where can they find you?
They can find me on Instagram a Listenery Wellness and
then the rest of my contact information is up there too. Okay,
(42:49):
sounds good. And lastly, what would you say? I just
want to open up the floor to you, to anyone listening,
someone who might be considering therapy and is hesitant for
whatever reason. Um, maybe we're already in it, but you
want words for the wise, like what would you say
to all of us? What? What final thoughts would you share?
You know, my final thought is such a therapist, it's
a it's a question. It's like what do you have
(43:10):
to lose? What do you have to lose? Well, thank
you so much, Leah. It was great to have you
back on the show. Y'all go follower a listener ree
Wellness on Instagram and Facebook. Thank you, Thank you, h happy,
Thank you again Leah for joining us on the podcast.
(43:31):
Such a great conversation. I hope that it gave you
some clarity as you begin or maybe even restart your
therapy journey. For all of the resources that you know
we talked about, you can head over to Hot Happy
Mess dot com and we'll share it in the show notes.
And also that's where you can submit your story as
a real woman or a WTF confession or hashtag. Asked
Zuri whether it's home design, love, sex, careers, you name it,
(43:53):
I'll answer. So stay tuned. We've got more episodes coming
every Wednesday. And in the meantime, share this episode Old
with a friend if you liked it, if you think
that they might like it, or be looking for a therapist.
And yeah, follow me on Instagram at Zuri Hall and
at Hot Happy Mess and I'll talk to you over
there in the meantime and see you next Wednesday. Bye bye,
(44:16):
bye bye
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