The Unapologetic Guide to Black Mental Health with Dr. Rheeda Walker

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
M hm, Hot Happy Mess. Celebrate your magic in the
middle of life's messes Hot Happy. I'm Zurie Hall and
this is Hot Happy Mess. What's up. Welcome to another

(00:24):
episode of Hot Happy Mess. I am your host, Zuri Hall,
and I hope you are well. Sorry, I completely just
blanked out for a second. It's been a long day.
Um a quick life update. What is going on? My
dad was in town. I'm here in Los Angeles. My
dad came out and visited me for gosh like teen

(00:44):
plus days, which was awesome. He's retired now so he
can just hop on the plane and go and he's
pretty chill, pretty low maintenance do so that's nice. We
just kind of kick back and hang out. Lola has
him wrapped around her little gin referred Paul. But it's
been really sweet. Just covered the SPS. Attended to that event,

(01:05):
which was really fun, really cool to shake it up.
It's not your usual Hollywood crowd, right. You get a
little bit of the celebs, the Hollywood celebs, and then
the sports stars and the world's all collide at once.
So that was a really fun night. I was in
High Hills until like two in the morning, maybe three,
and I started at gosh, like one o'clock in the afternoon.

(01:26):
So my back hates me. My feet do too, but
that's a conversation for another day. I'm getting older. Anyways,
things are well. I hope things are well your way.
And if you didn't know, this month, this BIPOC Mental
Health Awareness Month, and today's episode means so much to
me because we are having a really important conversation on

(01:50):
mental health within the Black community, specifically as it relates
to Black women. This topic has been on my mind
for a while quite a aile, but especially in the
last year or two, you know, as I've seen how
anxiety and depression has impacted those in my industry and

(02:10):
my community, my family, my friend group, myself. Um, It's
why i take mental health and the activism around mental
health and mental wellness very seriously. And I've tried to
be as transparent as I can and as I'm ready
to in any given moment about my own mental health journey,

(02:32):
because I've had ebbs and flows, you know, And really
it was only in the last couple of years I
think the pandemic really kicked off of some feelings or
new experiences for a lot of us that maybe we
hadn't gone through before. But you know, the last couple
of years especially, I've had to deal with the ebb
and flow of feelings of mental wellness and some days

(02:56):
a year a little bit down, and and sometimes there's
a reason, and then sometimes there's not. And I think
it's really important that we acknowledge and remove the stigma
around the moments when there's not when it feels like
there's not a reason. Because depression and anxiety and a

(03:17):
lot of these mental health concerns or challenges that we
all deal with to varying degrees, they don't discriminate, you know,
And I've learned that especially in recent years. And but
it's something that I've seen in my personal life and
from people who I care about in their own personal struggles.

(03:38):
It's something that I've been heartbroken to have to report on. Professionally,
we're seeing now more than ever, sports stars, celebrities, people
come out and just talk about their mental health and
moments when they feel that it's been lacking or less
than ideal or optimal. And there's no shame. There's no

(03:59):
shame in those struggles, and there's no shame in asking
for help. And so I just really want to take
a true moment from me to you and say that
when I say I hope you are well, I genuinely
truly hope you are well. And if you are not,

(04:20):
please no, please understand, Please believe me when I say
it can get better. It does get better. It sometimes
takes a lot of work and a support network that
sometimes you may not feel like you have, and some
time and heavy lifting. Those may all be things that

(04:44):
you have to go through to get to the other side.
But I promise you it's worth it. And sometimes the helpers,
the people who will see you when you feel unseen,
hear you when you feel unheard, support you when you
feel unsupported, are the people you least expect. I love

(05:06):
that saying about looking for the helpers. They're everywhere. I'm
paraphrasing because I always butcher quotes, but it's so true.
Sometimes people who have pulls me out of my darkest moment,
or who have wiped a tear from high eye because
I'm crying in public because it's one of those days,
or you know, someone who's left me a note of
encouragement or a smiley face on a napkin because they

(05:29):
saw me crying at a dinner table out in public,
because it was one of those days. I have moments.
You all, we all have moments. Sometimes it's those people.
Sometimes it's the kindness of strangers. But what I really
hope and pray is that if you are struggling, that
you will reach out to someone, that you will talk
to someone, even if it's as simple as I need help.

(05:53):
I'm scared. I don't know what to do, I don't
know what to say. Will you sit with me, you
pray with me, will you talk with me? Will you
help me find the support network, the professional help that
I need. A lot of times, you know, we can't
heal what we don't reveal, and people don't know that

(06:15):
we're suffering in silence. Sometimes it's the person right next
to you. It has certainly been me often, and people
closest to me would never suspect. I'm sure you can relate.
I'm sure you've had similar experiences. So I just hope
that you find it in you to have the courage
to show up for yourself and just ask for that help.

(06:39):
Hopefully today's conversation will give you a little bit of support,
a little bit of insight, some resources and direction if
you're looking for help, if you're looking to understand some
of your feelings. Therapy is obviously something that I've always
been a very big advocate for, and I highly encourage

(07:01):
that to anyone who's even considering it or on the fence.
And today I'm particularly grateful for Dr Rita joining me
for a really beautiful, um, really deep, really real conversation
on Hot Happy Mess. We are exploring high functioning depression,
how anxiety can take hold of our daily lives, suicide ideation,

(07:25):
the myth of the happy strong friend, and it's connection
with silent suffering, and so so so much more. If
there is not an episode you listen to except for
one this year, I'm not gonna be that dramatic this month, alright.
I don't want you to listening to just one episode
over the year, But this month, I really hope you

(07:46):
listen to this one. I do want to share a
content warning, as later in our conversation we will be
discussing suicide. If you find the topic triggering, you can
check the episode description and the show notes for the
specific time aime codes when we'll have that conversation, so
that you can bypass that parts get by that. Okay, alright, y'all,

(08:07):
let's go ahead and get this conversation started. It is
a beautiful one. You do not want to miss it.
Share it to a friend right now, talk about it
with them after you listen. Here's Dr Rita. Dr Rita
Walker is an award winning professor of psychology, Fellow in
the American Psychological Association, and author of The Unapologetic Guide
to Black Mental Health. She is also an expert scholar

(08:29):
who has published more than sixties scientific papers on African
American and mental health, suicide risk, and emotional resilience. You
may have seen her in Vogue, e any, Good Morning America, Today,
the breakfast club, all the places that anybody who's doing
anything wants to be and I'm so grateful to have
her with us today sharing her expertise. Dr Rita, welcome,

(08:51):
Thank you so much, Sree. It really is a pleasure
to be here with you. I'm so glad to have
you before we dive in. You know, our our show
is all about best life minus the burnout. Big part
of avoiding burnout is taking the breaks and the rest
we need. I hear you have a sabbatical that you
took a few months ago I did so. University professors,
after having been in whatever appointment for at least seven years,

(09:14):
are eligible to take time off, so it can be
a semester or actually a year. I opted to take
one semester to take a step back. I actually did
work on some projects, so I worked. I went hard,
some things that I took off the plate. Wait, dr Rita,
you're supposed to sabbatical on thebbatical. No, that was so

(09:34):
not the intention. But you understand, you know, there are
times when you're supposed to like dial back and it
just doesn't work out that way. So I still now
needed sabbatical from a sabbatical. Okay, you sound like me.
I've never felt more seen. Well, I hope you get
the sabbatical from your sabbatical. Um, but I'm sure what's
going to come out of that work will be just
as impressive as everything else you've accomplished so far. UM.

(09:57):
This episode, we are really just covering, um, you know,
this spectrum from mental health to to hopefully you providing
some insights on this rising trend of black women committing suicide,
battling depression. UM, you know, just breaking down and unmasking
what exactly that is that depression, um, the myth of
the happy, the strong friend um, and that connection to

(10:19):
silent suffering, which is what a lot of us are
realizing the people we love are doing suffering and silence.
Sometimes we we hear these stories and we it resonates,
you know, because sometimes we are the one who is
suffering in silence. July is BIPOC Mental Health Awareness Month. Um.
When this this episode is scheduled air, So it couldn't

(10:40):
have come um at a more perfect time. First of all,
how are you doing? How are things in your world
right now? Um? And then yeah, just tell me a
little bit about your background, how you came into this world. Well,
you know, I came into this work as someone who
was really curious about our community, so curious about the
black the African American community, and specifically how we didn't

(11:02):
seem to show up in my undergraduate psychology textbooks. You know.
I just kind of felt like the way we went
about life wasn't really represented. And I thought, Okay, well,
if I just go go to graduate school, I'll just
get one of those PhDs and that's where the knowledge resides, right,
That's what I thought. Uh. And so that you know,
really started my journey to trying to create knowledge that

(11:23):
didn't exist in a way that that we needed it.
If that makes sense, it absolutely is so important. I'm
curious to know around what age was it that you
decided this was a world that you really wanted to
commit yourself too. Was this a calling you felt early on?
Was was there, you know, a situational moment that made
you realize, Okay, I think I know where my life
is headed. It's an interesting question because, like a lot

(11:45):
of folks, my mother had told me early in life
what I was going to do. And what she said
was that I could be a lawyer or I could
be a doctor. And I think so many of us
have those conversations, right, like these are respectable careers that
you can have that people know what they are great,
and I adopted that. I actually thought that I was
going to be a lawyer for a really long time

(12:07):
because I like to talk so great, I'll be a lawyer.
Fast forward to and this was probably you know, elementary school,
middle school. Fast forward to undergraduate um and having the
opportunity to actually shadow an attorney, and I was about,
you know, probably nineteen years old at the time, and
I thought m M. This this just doesn't feel right,
Like just the whole feel of it just didn't seem

(12:29):
like something that I aspired to do. So I went
back to the drawing board, thought about what are the
classes that I intrinsically enjoyed. There were psychology courses back then.
Folks were like, you can't do anything with a bachelor's
degree in psychology. So I said, okay, well, I'm interested
in black people, so I guess I'll just go get
the PhD. So then my mom could have the doctor

(12:51):
had given me the options in. It all worked out,
and here you are. Now you've got your book, The
Unapologetic Guide to Black Mental Health. I'm curious to know one,
why is it unapologetic? What is so unapologetic about this
book for those who may be picking it up? And
also what does it mean to be culturally humble? Yeah? So,
so two things about the book being unapologetic and the

(13:12):
community probably resonates with the idea that oftentimes we can't
seem to have anything, um, and we especially can't seem
to have have nice things that our stories, our narratives,
anything that was intended for the black community, you know,
just gets hijacked. Um. They become all lives matter, you
know kind of thing. And so I needed us to

(13:33):
have a text a reference for us because of the
crisis was happening in our community, and I needed to
be able to communicate in a way that that we
understood that there was something that needed to happen. That's
one part. The other part is that we really do
have some um traditions in our community, things that we
say to each other like, uh, just go pray about it. Uh,

(13:57):
black people don't go to therapy. Know that we got
to cut out, Like we really have to remove those
conversations so that we can get meaningful help to people
who need it. So it's unapologetic because it really is
for us without apology, and too because we have to
be honest about some of the things that we do
that perpetuate some of the problems. Beautifully said um and

(14:18):
I couldn't agree more. When you say culturally humble, what
is that in reference to what exactly does that mean? Yeah, Well,
that's for folks who are aspiring to provide services in
our communities who aren't necessarily a part of those communities.
And so we have individuals who may be you know,
professionally trained who are in fact license, but they're not

(14:41):
African American, you know, don't resonate with the African American
experience in any way. They may have a few Black friends,
but they come into these conversations thinking, oh, you know,
well all people are just the same, or my client
didn't come in because of racism, and they need to
be able to meet the client where they are, to

(15:02):
be able to talk about, you know, experiences of racism
or microaggression, whatever they may be, and take a humble
approach to learning more and learning not just from the client,
you know, who's someone who is you know, presumably in pain,
but taking it upon themselves to say okay, rather than
you know, tapping into any biases, you know, to really

(15:25):
truly learn and and follow the um you know, follow
the journey of learning more about the community to help
to make sense of every client and every patient psychological distress. Okay,
So what I think is interesting to note here, you know,
the Unapologetic Guide is a guid for everybody to black
mental health. Is this something that a health provider could
also pick up, whether or not they feel that they're

(15:47):
a part of the community, if they want to better
understand our community. Oh yeah, absolutely. I think that uh
Dr Naim Akbar, who wrote the forward, probably said it
best that even though it wasn't necessarily written for people
who don't identify as African American or who don't identify
as black, that by reading the book, they will in

(16:08):
fact learn a lot. So the book is targeted, you know,
for the black community, because I know that we have
the resources, you know, once we have more information and insight,
that we can do better and other folks can kind
of you know, peek in a sea like Okay, those
are some real issues, you know, because I cite research,
I talk about my research, and I talk about the
impact of systemic oppression on black people that I think

(16:32):
we internalize in a lot of ways. It's just kind
of like, well, that's just kind of life. It just
is what it is. And for a lot of folks
that really is like wow, Like you you deal with that,
you know, like trying to figure out neighborhoods to live
in and where to send children to school in a
way that you have to avoid oppression, Like like that's
something that you know, I talk about because it's it's

(16:53):
normative for us, uh and we wonder why we're so
exhausted all the time. But I'll pause that, Oh, we
just I wanted to go on a whole different path
with that, and we will get to um to that
idea of exhaustion and what it means to just feel
like the walls are closing in on you and how
that may manifest in one's life and one's health. Um

(17:14):
to sort of open up that conversation around this mental
health crisis that we seem to be in. UM. One
one area in which I think it really exacerbates the
problem is us playing against these stereotypes, right, these these
labels that have been put on us, me going through
the world trying have to come across as an angry

(17:34):
black woman being quote unquote ghetto whatever that means, acting
white quote unquote whatever that means, lessening our true selves
so that we're more palatable to communities, people, groups that
may not understand us. Code switching is something that I've
spoken a lot about that I feel very passionately about
because I was really a prisoner of it for most
of my childhood and my high school life, because I

(17:57):
was living in between two worlds. You know. I went
to a very small, very wealthy, very white, um, private
independent school, amazing education. I love it. I wouldn't take
it back. But I was none of those things that
I just listed off. I was from a working you know,
our middle class family in the inner city. All my
friends were black, my family was black, and I bust

(18:19):
out and I felt very torn for a very long
time and I didn't feel like I fit in in
anyone's space. UM, and that sticks with you into adulthood.
You start to carry certain insecurities around that. UM. And
that's just one one area. But again, when when we
think about all of these different pressures that we have
when we step outside of our home, UM, what is

(18:40):
your perspective on that, on how the pressure to coach, switch,
the pressure to not come off, how society says we
come off, might affect our mental health. Well, it really
is interesting because you know, we we we have learned
to adapt, right, So, so you know, surviving is about
adapt thing to the circumstances. And so that's what you

(19:03):
were able to do. And what we don't realize is
that the adaptation not just for you in your lifetime,
but but over generations. You know, so our grandparents adapted
and so they taught our parents to adapt, and then
we adapted, and so we just kind of pass on
to some degree the exhaustion, you know, you you come

(19:23):
out the gate just just tied, you know, like I
have nothing left. And because that gets to be again
so normalized that we think, if I'm not having a
nervous breakdown, then I'm okay. And that's the part that
I think that troubles me, because we're doing the equivalent
of you know, dragging a broken ankle or you know,

(19:45):
broken foot along. It's like, okay, as long as I
can get to the next step, then I'm okay, not
realizing that we're doing further damage or at least further
delaying our recovery unless we get to a place where
we can say this thing that I'm doing right now
it has to stop. And and to be sure, some
of us have achieved tremendous success despite running on that

(20:10):
broken angle, and so because of the success or or
the perception of success, we just keep it moving. And
then when it's time to say, okay, I can't do
this anymore, and the body is saying I can't do
this anymore, and sometimes it's something as bad as a
heart attack. We know that black women have disproportionately high
rates of heart attack and stroke, and it takes something

(20:33):
that bad to shut down the physical body. And you know,
the physician is saying something like, are you experiencing a
lot of stress? Like, well, when am I not? I
thought it was part of who I am to do? Stress?
Are you talking about this? Up? Woke up? Didn't not know?

(20:54):
Of course I have stress, and as long as I
can keep moving into okay, But we need to be
able to say. And one reason why, you know, I
try to introduce this idea of psychological fortitude because when
we talk about mental health, well we say, well, I'm
not crazy. You know, I'm not I'm not weak. You know,
I'm not any of the stereotept So we tell ourselves
about mental health, you know, you know, all the ones

(21:16):
you know. Because of that, then we avoid having actually
health and well being and psychological fortitude to be able
to tap into our creativity, um to to the inspiration
to do the things that we were all put here
to to do. Dr Reading, you are preaching, preaching, preaching, preaching.

(21:40):
I love what you mentioned about the body and how
these things start to manifest in our physical health. How
you know if we were running on a broken foot,
we would probably want to, you know, stop, wrap it up,
maybe go to the e R. But when it's when
it's our mental wellness or mental we can sense that

(22:01):
we're not okay. But to your to quote you directly,
if we're not having a nervous breakdown, it's fine. We
can keep going. You know. I didn't grow up with
therapy like so many of us. And we'll talk about
that stigma in the black community. I'm in and now
I love it. I get excited, like me showing up
for my therapy appointments is like a first day. Every time,

(22:21):
I'm like, what do we go talk about? Like, I
just can't wait to tether everything. UM. It has been
a game changer for me. But one UM, one chapter
of my life that was more recent than not, when
I realized sort of just how important the pain body
can be to UM firing off warning shots for you

(22:42):
is I have my first panic attack probably two years ago.
I'd never had one, and I didn't understand when my friends,
my close friends or family members would talk about anxiety,
extreme anxiety, or panic attacks. I tried to empathize and
sympathize where I could, but you only know what you
know until you know something differently and in a twisted way.

(23:03):
I'm really grateful for that chapter because, oh my god,
my heart just breaks so much more. I just have
so much more empathy for people going through it, particularly consistently,
because you know, the physicality of that was so scary
and so overwhelming, and it was a one off for me,

(23:25):
and I had a few more in the year that followed.
But there are people who are ignoring these these warning
signs in their bodies daily, weekly, monthly, or their self
medicating to mute or none that. Um, what what signs
would you encourage someone to consider if you feel this way,
If if this is something that you're constantly ruminating about,

(23:49):
you may want to consider talking to someone getting checked out,
just seeing what's going on. Well, you know, it's I'm
glad that you share that, because you know, first and foremost,
we do want to rule out, you know, physical health
problems like some people do have you know, blocked arteries,
like they have conditions that have been passed on uh,

(24:10):
you know, as you know, and we do want to
make sure that we're having annual, you know, regular physical
check ups, and that's what mental health professionals will always
tell a new patient like, when was your last physical?
Did you rule out physical health concerns? And so when
people are seeing their doctor regularly, then they can say, like,
I'm in good health. I don't have any reason to
believe that I'm at risk for a stroke or things
of that nature, because some folks really are walking around

(24:32):
with really high blood pressure and have no idea and
that needs to be managed. So once an individual knows
that they are physically healthy and they can rule out
those kinds of concerns, then they want to start to
notice when they just feel like that tightness in their chest.
But you know, the tightness isn't because of physical health,
but it could be because of anxiety, and it might

(24:53):
just feel like pressure. It might just feel like somebody
has their foot on your chest or or neck, and
it's like difficulties, like difficulties breathing. And then there are
other folks who, you know, it seems more subtle, like
they might snap more than usual um or they might
say something that's out of proportion to the situation. Because yes,

(25:13):
there are situations that are just really foul, like really stressful,
and we get angry and that's normal. But when something
happens and you can cognitively say, okay, I don't think
that was that big of a deal the way that
I reacted to it, then it is time to stop
and reassess what all is going on for me. And
when I talk about reassess, I introduced this, you know,

(25:36):
the rating system in the book that is psychological fortitude
that is a zero to tend um zero. You have
no capacity to take care of your daily responsibility. So
people you know who are working outside the home or
in the home, you know, individuals who are in school
maybe and working, maybe, taking care of children, taking care

(25:57):
of their physical health. People do have that be ease,
and you have to exercise to do things to take
care of your your physical health. Um. And then of
course we have our you know, our life purpose. But
there are some folks who will say, I have no idea,
you know what my purpose is, And so we need
to be able to to know what that is because
that hope gives us the drive, you know, to keep
to keep moving towards pursuing something. And so if we're

(26:20):
able to manage all those things and tap into our
not to cut you off, but just because that stood
out to me, do you believe that everyone has a
life purpose, which I think is so important when people
feel purposeless and like there's no point in waiting to
figure something out that they don't think it's gonna come. Oh. Absolutely,
I absolutely believe that every single person has a purpose

(26:40):
for which they were put here. And you know that
purpose doesn't have to be you know, being Zuri Hall,
you know, and doing all the wonderful things. Um, you
know that that you've accomplished. Like everyone has their own thing,
you know, maybe it is I'm the best cook in
my home, and so when we bring families together, you know,
I'm the person who's cooking and bringing joy. Way, like,

(27:00):
we all have some talent, but oftentimes those talents get buried,
maybe because our family said, well you was supposed to
be a doctor, you know, and so that person decided
to go get an m d. When their purpose was
in you know, spending time with the youth. You know,
Like we all have these distractions from our life purpose,

(27:21):
and so then we're always trying to fight like I
know there's more to life than this. Well, maybe it's
your purpose and so if we're to if we're to
tend you know, we're cooking with Greece. You know, you're
taking care of your work. Hopefully your work is taking
you to your life purpose. You know, we're able to
take care of our physical health. Uh. You know, over
the course of the pandemic, it's understandable that most of
us didn't get to attend like that is completely understandable.

(27:44):
But we want to at least be at a seven
or so. If there are folks whooll operating and that
five and below for weeks or months or years. Three,
and we know that there are people who are at
five for years, it is time to talk to a professional.
Talking to family is great. You know, we know our

(28:04):
families love us, but we can't. They can't necessarily love
on us the way that a licensed professional can. I
love them. We're not normalizing fives, y'all. If it's been
like five, we need to we need to up the
anti um. It was beautiful what you said, and I
completely agree. I do believe that everyone has a purpose
in life and if we can tap into that, that's
where we find our joy and that sense of contentment

(28:26):
peace when we cultivate it. But it can be really
hard to do, especially you know, when we have family
or friends, coworkers, sometimes strangers on the internet these days,
that sometimes it's the biggest thing telling us who we are,
who we can't be, what we should think, why we
shouldn't think this way. Um, when it comes to the
black community, specifically in the stigma around talking about wellness

(28:48):
or lack thereof, talking about therapy or lack thereof, where
do you think that has come from? Why? Why has
that been our burden to bear? And are you sensing
a generational shift now, because I'm starting to feel it.
I think I do. Um. Okay, So the first p
I wish I knew where it came from, you know,
so we could just go throught the whole thing. It
just seems like it's always been. It's always been there. Uh.

(29:12):
The interesting thing is that it's wonderful to have this
sense of resilience in the community. I gets It's what
got us out of chattel slavery. It's got us through
the Civil rights movement, Like we needed that sort of
like I can do this no matter what. Like that's
part of you know, psychological well being is to be

(29:32):
able to say I can experience a stressful situation and
I can navigate and come through that, and I really
believe that that came from our our African culture and
our our heritage um as people of African ancestry. What
happened though, over time, is that we lost track of
our cultural resilience, started to do you know, some of

(29:53):
what you were talking about, like trying to fit in
to a cultural community that was rejecting, unaffirming in so
many ways and its cycle. You left one culture behind.
Those culture is saying, uh no, ma'am, you're not one
of us, are you? At least not enough of one
of us? And so we're kind of, you know, in
the gap, and so increasing I think because we're getting

(30:15):
to a place of crisis, this current generation is like,
oh no, you gotta have some different kinds of conversations.
This is unacceptable. I'm so glad that those conversations are
happening now. I do sense it, especially you know, I'm
I'm I'm a millennial. UM. When I see gen Z
and the conversations that they're having, especially when it comes

(30:35):
to public discourse, I'm just so it's equal parts I'm
inspired and my heart is breaking because I feel like
they're struggling, at least more publicly with mental health in
really just devastating ways. And yet on the opposite end
of that that pendulum, um, that swing, are people saying
enough is enough. I don't want to live the life
of my parents, and no, I'm not um. I don't

(30:57):
buy into your you know, work by all means necessary,
achieve all the goals, strive for this and that. I
just want to chill. I just want to live my
life and to have that freedom and that clarity at
you know, sixteen seventeen eighteen. Sometimes because they see what's
happening to their peers who are striving for something else.
I really admire that that is not where I was,
and I don't feel that that's where you know, the

(31:18):
people in my generation that I was close to at
least we're at that age. UM. When it comes to
our community and our most common diagnoses, what what do
those tend to be? Uh? You know, obviously we have bipolar,
there's anxiety, depression, Um, some folks who go undiagnosed. What
sort of issues do you seem to recognize the most

(31:38):
in the black community. Yeah, there are two psychological or
diagnosable disorders, like two we'll call them two buckets, and
so one bucket is in fact, depression, and the other bucket,
which actually we see more of them depression, is anxiety.
You know, we talk about a depression a lot in
the community, or at least historically we did. Increasingly we

(31:58):
are talking about in anxiety. So that's you know a
lot of worrying, which I know got passed on from
a previous generation. Just folks would say, you just find
something to worry about, okay, um, And so it's it's
the worry, it's the hyper vigilance and the planning and
the agitation that goes with worry. Um. It is you know,

(32:20):
worry affects concentration and affects sleep, and so similarly does depression.
The interesting thing about anxiety and depression that a lot
of people don't know is that we they co occur
um and so people who have depression are more likely
to be anxious, and people who are anxious are more
likely to have depression. So oftentimes we see just kind

(32:41):
of a mix of maybe low mood and agitation that
go with depression. But then we also see, you know,
a lot of worry thoughts, we see a sense of hopelessness.
Like this anxiety that I have is never gonna go away,
and then that starts to feel like depression. Uh. You know,
so the two coexists a lot um and I think
that the one probably dimension of those two that we

(33:05):
don't acknowledge enough is in fact this sort of like um,
this agitation, uh, you know, being short with people and
so individual would just say like, you know, why are
you angry all the time? Well, you know mentally emotionally,
they're caring a lot. And so rather than saying or
referring to them as an angry black woman, you know,

(33:25):
why not extend some grace. And that's what we need
to be doing more of, you know in our communities
is extending grace to folks. And if they can't hear you,
if they're not listening to the podcast, let them know. Hey.
You know I can tell you know, this situation right
here is really stressful for you. I'm gonna come back,
but you know, I'm gonna check on you later. You know,

(33:46):
I'm not gonna dig in or call you names or
call you out your name, um, but I'm gonna, you know,
respect where you are and try to be supportive. That
support from the community is so important, you know, identity, um,
and how we fit in a individuals within our greater
communities is so important. That sense of belonging, that sense
of fellowship, that sense of you know, having a village

(34:07):
when it takes one. Um, I love if you could
just discuss the role of identity and what that plays into,
how that plays into our mental health depression, possible anxiety,
you know when we think about race, sex, gender, sexual orientation. Um,
you've said you can access with condent energy by being
who you are. How do we figure out who we are?

(34:30):
And how important is it to have a safe space
to be whoever that person is. Yeah, I mean identity
that just has so many, so many layers to it.
And actually one place I will start is by acknowledging
that a lot of what it means to be black
has negative stereotypes associated with it. Like if we could

(34:51):
remove the negative conversations that people have about you know,
black people being lazy and all these other kinds of
narratives when you know, well, for hundreds of years, these
folks who are working without pay, you know, like, can
we reshape the narrative about what it means to be
a black person in this society? Because when black people
internalize this and this is what I'll say, you know,

(35:13):
to parents and teachers. We have to be careful about
how the younger people are internalizing what they think it
means to be black, you know, and all this. Well,
if you speak like you got some sense and you're
talking white, you know, like, that's that's unacceptable and it's
leaving our children more vulnerable. Whereas the research has been

(35:33):
consistent in saying that if a black person, child, woman,
who whomever, has a positive sense of what it means
to be black, so we're resilient, we're creative, we make
a way out of no way, you know, Like when
we have that, it gets it's a lot farther in
work and in school and in anything that we thrive
at or we strive at, it gets us so much further.

(35:56):
So we have to be aware, aware of removing the
negative connotation and also embracing the positive that that has
been lost. Uh, you know, I'll never forget. You know,
when I was teaching in South Carolina and I had
a student to say, well, Dr Walker, why are we
why are we talking so much about Africa? You don't
see me sitting around beating a drum. And I was
so heartbroken for him, because I know that a lot

(36:19):
of what we understand about being African people is negative.
It's bad, it's backwards. Now we see a division in
the US between people you know, of African descent who
are first generation and those whose families have been here
for generations, and we've got these disconnects. We're all African
um but we need to tap into what that truly

(36:40):
truly means. Because when you talk about the community and
the community supporting one another, some of us don't know
who the community is, and so we can't support one
another because we don't know that we're all a part
of this same collective of individuals that has to come together,
especially in a society that isn't going to support us
in the way that we need to be portant. You said,

(37:01):
and this is a direct quote to to piggyback on
what you've just shared. If a black child does not
have a positive Black identity to navigate his world, he
may encounter considerable emotional turmoil. Where does he fit in?
The identity struggle can be difficult to navigate. Your black
ancestors surrendered their cultural identity long ago to survive. They
would have gladly maintained their uncolonized heritage. You have been

(37:25):
willingly struggling to get your son to fit in to
the colonizer system. Meanwhile, he is marginalized, feels justifiably unsafe,
and never believes he quite belongs. This lack of belonging
can have emotional consequences. I get chills reading that. I
almost tear up reading that, because in certain ways that

(37:46):
very much puts words I probably didn't even have, probably
still don't have until now I can just go s
read what Dr Riata wrote about some of my childhood
experiences in those white spaces where I didn't know how
to navigate gay and I didn't necessarily have a map
of belonging to pull out of my back pocket, and
I didn't have my family, my friends, and my loved

(38:07):
ones there in those moments to remind me of who
I was and why that was a good thing and
where I came from. And it's hard when you're a
kid who's just trying to get on, to get on anyway,
to have this added layer. UM, I'd love if you
could just, um maybe give some some advice to the
parents specifically who might be listening. As you know, they

(38:29):
send their children out into these worlds that aren't necessarily
built for them and don't particularly want them there. Potentially. Yeah,
I have to take a deep breath on on that one,
as a mom who is like everyone else you know
who has a child in school, trying to find the
balance between the good school and I put that in

(38:50):
air quotes, um, and a school where they do in
fact fit in and there maybe more embraced. And it
is insane to have to make these decisions. And this
is just a plug for anyone who's been thinking about,
you know, creating schools like we need more schools that
can educate our children about not just math and science

(39:10):
and algebra, but also affirm who they are, rather than
removing us from the history books or making those history
books look a little suspect. I'm sorry, I'm in Texas
history books. It's a thing. Oh you should have laughed
with that. That would have been that would have clarified
so much what you may be going through. I am sorry.

(39:30):
Oh my goodness, you you we could talk about this
weekly um adventures in anyway, I digress um. One of
the things that I know as a psychologist who happens
to be a mom is that you know, We have
to have conversations with our children about what happened in
school and how they're making sense of what happened in school,

(39:52):
so that they are not internalizing, well, this happened because
I'm black and there's something wrong with me. Absolutely not.
They need to know that if someone mistreated them and
they think it has anything to do with being black
or being brown, being a person of color, that it's
about the other person. It's about the teacher, it's about
those students, it's about all those other individuals. I had

(40:16):
a similar experience that you did, except that my school was,
at least my first grade classroom, which I remember was
was the school was integrated, but I was in the
gifted class. Uh, and the teacher would never call on me.
So I was the only black child in the class. Uh.
The teacher would never call on me. Um. And after
a few weeks, I had no idea why. After a
few weeks, I got moved out of that classroom. Um,

(40:37):
and I got moved into a classroom where incidentally, it
was almost black or African American, and I was helping
the other students because I didn't have anything else to do.
Already knew what they were were learning, and it wasn't
until years later that I realized what likely happened to me. Um.
Fortunately I was also in I think similar to what
you described black family, you know, black unity, black neighborhood

(41:01):
and all those things. And what parents said to me
was you will have to work twice as hard to
get half as far. Somehow, you know, we make it
make sense. But even if we think that is true
for our younger children today, we need to be absolutely
sure that we're going another step and saying, these are
people who look like you who are inventors. These are

(41:23):
people who look like you who have created list off
you know, who have written books, who write poetry. You know,
we see you know, folks in sports and entertainment, but
we don't always necessary. We don't always see the folks
who are who are brilliant until we're in a movie, right,
So we wait until there's a movie and then we say, oh, wow,
I didn't know we did that. We have to be

(41:45):
much more intentional about showing our children who they are
and showing them in a different light. Now, sometimes we
might have to say, like, you can't go out there
calling folks racist, because then that I'll get them in
another heap of trouble. Ask me how I know you,
says my mama said, But we can't do that. We
need to tell the kids to stand down. I mean,
what if what if? You know, sometimes they find themselves

(42:08):
in situations where that is quite literally what is happening.
Come home and tell your parents. M and your parents
will will fight the battle, and parents have to fight
the battle. You know, we can't say, well, I went
through that, it was good enough for me, like no, no,
anyone who feels inclined to say that to a child

(42:30):
just just don't. Just don't, you know, ask him about
what happened, asked him about who all was there. Make
sure that you can understand that child's experience in the
way that they experienced it. So did they know that
you care? So they know that you hear them, because
when they go through things, if they feel like no
one's listening, then they won't be inclined, you know, to share.

(42:52):
And then yeah, parents have to go hard in the
pain basically, you know, for our children, like we we
are the first line of defense and I know that
we absolutely love our children. And meanwhile, we have to
make sure that we're communicating by being present. And one
of the reasons that I wrote the book is because
a lot of us can't be present because we're so
anxious and we're so depressed on our jobs. We're fighting

(43:16):
similar battles, but we're the first line of defense for
our children, So you know, we have our battle over here.
Reach out to whoever you need to reach out to,
so that we can be present for the youth. Because
when I see the crisis, you know, in our children, UM,
it gives me. It gives me pause, It really does.

(43:38):
I'd love to dig into the topic of unmasking depression
just a little bit more paraphrasing. You've said, we normalize
mental health issues and have been able to hide from them,
but when the pandemic happened, some of us were forced
to face it. Um. You touched a little bit on
what depression was earlier. UM. I really appreciated the breaking

(43:59):
down of how a siety can eventually lead to depression,
especially when we're suppressing that anxiety long enough that we
start to feel it's inescapable, that there's no way out
from it, and that sort of lays the groundwork for depression. UM.
How does it tend to present depression in its many forms.
And also this is something that I'm really fascinated by
the idea of because I see it around me, I've

(44:22):
felt it at certain points, and we're reporting stories in
my space now on people who have suffered from it.
And that is high functioning depression UM, which seems to
present a little bit differently than than we might expect.
So could you talk a little bit about about that.
We have this interesting idea that we think we know

(44:44):
what depression looks like, except that it doesn't always present
a certain way. You know, depression is oftentimes an internal experience.
You know, it is the feelings of worthless us, which
is not unsurprising in the society in which we live,

(45:05):
Like if you don't adhere to a certain standard, then
you're not good enough. And so folks are you know,
trying to fight because we are smart, you know, we
are intelligent. You know, we do have the capacity and
especially if you learn from parents, like you know you
just put on your eyelashes and keep it moving. You
know that we know how to do that. But it

(45:25):
doesn't mean that we aren't in fact suffering on the inside.
And so it looks like sleep problems, you know, falling
difficulties falling asleep and running around with five hours or
less asleep per night, Like that's not that's not good
for the body. Um, it looks like sometimes sometimes just
not having the energy to get out of bed. But
you know those dunkin Donuts commercials from back in the day,

(45:48):
you know, you gotta make the you gotta make the donuts.
And it feels like you don't have the option to
just be in bed because there's so many people who
are relying on you. And that's a good thing, you
know in some ways, because you know, that's our purpose,
or at least that's our short term purpose. My short
term purpose is to be here for everyone else. Unfortunately,
it's a distraction from the greater good or the bigger

(46:12):
picture that we're supposed to be pursuing. Um. For other people,
it is difficulties with overeating or under eating. So depression
is like it's a constellation of things. Um. If it
is biologically determined, so folks have disregulation in their hormonal system,
then they can benefit from having antidepressant medication. But for

(46:35):
a lot of people, the depression is more you know,
situational in circumstances. So uh, you know, they're in a
job for years in which they are trapped and miserable,
and you know, they're struggling with their sleep and their
concentration and their mind is just like I can't take
this anymore. But you've gotta keep it moving. Because there's

(46:58):
something about looking depressed and I put that an air quote,
There's something about looking weak. There's something about looking like
you got issues. We know, if somebody got issues, then
we ignore them, marginalize them, and nobody wants that, you know.
We we want to still be in the mix of
things because at least it gives us an opportunity to

(47:19):
feel alive. You know. We get invited to happy hour,
but then we go home and then that depression, you know,
s feelings kind of sink in or sneak in before
you know it. And that's why we have to be proactive,
you know. If you start to see, like I said,
those ratings, like you know, I'm at a six today, Shoot,
I was at a six last week? Who I was
at a four? Most of Oh? You know, that's when

(47:40):
we know, like, okay, I gotta shift something. And the
chief is rate has two parts. It's taking stuff off
of the plate, you know, the things that are overwhelming us,
the things that we don't like to do if possible. Um.
And then it's also adding good stuff, so you know,
reaching out to friends, if not one a week, than
at least once a month, and making a commitment to

(48:02):
doing more of the things that give us joy, more
things that give us joy. Um. That is one of
my big words for this year's joy. Just just to play, adventure,
to explore because it's something that I put off for
so long in the pursuit of all of the things.
And as a black woman in my industry, in the world,

(48:24):
you know, there are a lot of myths that I
have dealt with that I've sort of put on my
shoulders and other people that put on me that I'm
sure you have that we just know we we know
these these tropes, we've lived them. We've been inaccurately labeled
as them. I love if you could unpack a few
of these um negative sort of maybe I retract that

(48:47):
not necessarily negative all the time, but can certainly start
to feel negative if it's a label that we don't want.
I am a strong black woman, sometimes I'm also really
vulnerable and delicate and fragile black woman I am all
of those things and a black woman, so I don't
necessarily refute the label. Um, but any good thing can

(49:08):
become a bad thing when it's too much of a thing. So, um,
if we could just break down a few of these
and what they mean to you, how you've seen them
manifest in good ways and or bad ways, um, and
and how we should how we should navigate these labels
in our in our world. First up, we have the
strong black woman, the ultimate helper power through the pain

(49:29):
quote unquote still I Rise, one of my favorite poems. Um,
But talk to me a little bit about who the
strong black woman is and our relationship as black women
to this label. You know, I appreciate what I hear
you saying. That is like, yes, there is there is
the positive side, and then there's kind of the underbelly. Right,
So the positive side of the strong black woman is

(49:52):
someone who knows she has it in her to be
able to navigate whatever comes her way. Know, like the
school calls, the car breaks down, you didn't get the promotion,
you know, whatever, it is, Like, Okay, they kind of
knocked me down just a little bit, but I'm just
gonna get back up, you know, and I got this.

(50:14):
And interestingly, you know when we think about stress, like
stressful things happen all the time. When stress gets to
be bad is when we say to ourselves, I can't
handle this. I don't have the wherewithal to deal with this.
That's when we start to get into trouble. So being
strong is like, you know, it starts with the mind.
Like we can't do anything without our minds. And so

(50:34):
if in our mind we're like, yeah, I can't do this,
you know, I don't have what it takes, like, then
we're not gonna get anything done. But if we start
with I got this, great, The problem is we don't
realize when we don't got this um, you know, And
like you said, we do just power and press through
no matter what. On that broken ankle, I literally had

(50:56):
a fracture in my ankle a few years ago. I
actually tried to at help and they said, oh, no,
you know, it's just it's just sprained a little bit
um and it was fractured. But I was going out
the country and I said, Okay, we're just gonna make this,
gonna make this work. So that's where that there was
an analogy. I always mix this up from earlier from
you were literally out here running on this broken foot,

(51:18):
fractured foot, fractured foot. Dr read. I tried, I tried
to get help. I really, I really did, UM. And
when they said I had to wear the boot, I
wore the boot diligently. I wasn't happy about the boot,
but I did wear it um And yeah, so you know,
even though we're mental health professionals, we're still out here
struggling just like everyone else and trying to figure out

(51:39):
what the balance is. And that's the word, you know,
when we think about, you know, our emotional well being
is kind of a seesaw. You know, we want to
make sure that it's at least level um, or that
the good stuff is higher than the not so good stuff.
And when the overwhelming stuff starts to uh supersede the
good stuff, then you know, we've we've got some issues

(52:02):
and we have to be able to be honest with ourselves.
But I think one of the reasons we aren't um
is because of fear. You know, what we tell ourselves
will happen if you stop and wait and listen quietly.
And that's why the pandemic was so hard on so
many people who are running around, uh and avoiding the

(52:23):
things that we need to be able to address and
the pandemics, and I'm gon shut all of that down. UM.
So you're not going happy hour every day, You're not
going to all these social events and and running around
and rip into these things that you don't have to do. Um.
And some folks took that opportunity to say, Okay, I
am going to reset, and other folks said, Okay, I'm

(52:44):
just gonna be angry with everybody until this pandemic is over. UM.
And now we see I think some of the consequences
of that where folks, you know, we've got these surges
coming back, and folks are like, but I just gotta
live um, because everything else is so stressful, I at
least have to balance it out. But we might be
balancing in ways that are the healthiest for us when

(53:07):
it comes to uh, well, hold on, I want to
get through at least one more of these labels. But
I'm very curious to know what the key to balance is. Uh.
Some of the things that you recommend people kind of
sit with when they're on the quest for that balance.
But another one of these these labels, these stereotypes you
actually mentioned this, you know, when you were growing up,
and that this was something that you always heard, that

(53:29):
we must be two times three times better than better
than insert whoever else here who doesn't have to deal
with what we have to deal with. UM. As far
as burden, societal pressure, stereotypes, history, when it comes to
being high, achieving multiple degrees, financial assets, UM, how has
that affected us Black women specifically? UM, when it comes

(53:53):
to us going out into the world and deciding what
we want, we feel this pressure to go get certain
things and plenty of it. Yeah. You know, I think
on the one hand, we know that black women lead
an entrepreneurial resources or or efforts, and I think it's
that critic creativity that's always there, that's like I'm going
to build something. I see a need and I'm going

(54:15):
to address it. And I think that is absolutely just
inspiring and amazing. At the same time, you know, we're
overrepresented among individuals who have serious chronic illness, you know,
and I talked earlier about you know, having stroke and
and also having heart disease and also having all these
kinds of issues that if we address them earlier on,

(54:36):
we won't see the morbidity and the mortality that's related
to these issues. There are problems. There are cancers for
which black people are less likely to be diagnosed than
other groups, But then we're more likely to die because
we don't get help until it's time to go to
the emergency department. And that's true, you know, for physical
health and mental health, but especially with mental health. You know,

(54:58):
folks are in crisis and they go to emergency, but
emergency isn't really prepared to deal with mental health crisis
um and so you know, then folks may have a
negative experience and they say, well, I'm not gonna deal
with that anymore, and then these cycles can repeat themselves.
And so that's why we have to be so much
more mindful of Okay, where am I today? You know,

(55:19):
where am I in the morning on Wednesday? Where am
I in the afternoon on Friday? So that folks can
start to track numerically where they are, because otherwise, what
do we do? Somebody says, well, how are you doing today? Fine?
Some people say blessed and highly favored? What is that?
What does that mean? I can't complain because I do

(55:42):
no good. But when we're able to sit with a rating,
it gives us an opportunity to do something. Um and
I'll use this example if I can, because it's it's
so simple. UM My son has has two parents who
are psychologists. Blessed his heart because of that. Some of
this boocab Larry he already has. He's eleven now, he
already has this vocabulary. A couple of years ago, you know,

(56:04):
we were in the pandemic. I was on the sofa.
I wasn't feeling well. I'm pretty sure I got some
bad food. And he saw me and he said, you know, mom,
are you okay? And especially for your child, you know,
you don't say like, oh you know I need you
to intervene. You just said like, I'm okay. You know
you don't want your child to worry. But he could
tell I didn't look so good, and so he said,
on a zero to ten, how are you doing? He did, okay,

(56:27):
young king, Oh my goodness. He was nine. He's like
on a zero, Oh my goodness. So I said, h
I'm at the five. And so I could see his
little wheels turning because he was trying to figure out, okay,
like what do I do with this five? And so
he says, oh, Mom, can I give you some water. Well,
thank you very much, sweetie. Yes, I would love some water.
And so my son went got me some water because

(56:48):
I was at a five. And of course he went
back back and played with video games. But he understood,
you know, that there was more to it. He assessed,
and then he knew what to do because of the
rating that I gave him. It didn't have to be
a perfect rating, you know, it didn't have to be
something that he had to look at the scale and like, no,
he's like a five. That's about midway. Okay, something needs

(57:08):
to happen, and we can do that for ourselves, and
we can do that for the people around us. So
then when someone says they're fine, even if we get
the sense that, like, well, something's not quite right, you
get a value that tells you so much more. And
I see it all the times where it really does work. Wow. Wow,
that's a really a rating system. That's something that I

(57:29):
need to probably think about more. So it's a good
reminder just to self check in a few seconds where
am I right now on the scale, because so often
we just go, go, go, We don't give our self
time to even pause and think about it. I'm sometimes
probably afraid of where my number would land if I
took the ten seconds to think about it. But we
need to and I love that little man. Help you

(57:50):
think about it? That is adorable. Oh my gosh, I
can't wait to hear what he's like at fifteen, sixteen, eighteen.
If that's what he was doing at nine, wow, are
you impressive? Yeah, we'll see. I mean, honestly, I almost
forgot that. I wasn't feeling so good. It's like, did
he just ask me? Yeah? I mean it was. I
love it. I love he's he's the sweetest. You know.

(58:11):
The world that he is growing up in and will
eventually go out into is a digital world, and it's
sometimes it was like a catch twenty two. Two sides
to this very specific and unique coin um. On one hand,
it can be very detrimental to our mental health, you know, bullying,
self esteem, comparing ourselves to others. And then on the
other hand, it's also shifting public conversation, is lifting the

(58:35):
veil on these things that we haven't traditionally talked about.
It went from being a dirty little secret to something
that we can unapologetically speak on, you know, with the
Olympics having recently happened. We had some own biles Naomi
Osaka talking about their mental health and doing it unapologetically.
Uh Summer Walker talking about her social anxiety. These are

(58:56):
things that we get to hear and experience um and
things that resonate with us because of the same digital
beast that sometimes is making us lose our minds. So
what are your thoughts on social media and how it
impacts mental health? You know, everything with moderation, and that
includes social media, because yes, there is good and there

(59:18):
is there is ugly, but the opportunities that it has
created in so many dimensions, as you said, like access
to you know, respectable public figures who are comfortable talking
about their well being and how they've normalized that for
so many others of their generation and also those before
them and those who are younger like that's important. At

(59:41):
the same time, we have to monitor how much we
intake social media the comparisons, because the comparisons are the
almost the death of well being because rather than tapping
into our purpose, we're trying to figure out how to
approximate what this other person is doing on on I G.

(01:00:02):
And so it's okay sometimes to get to get inspiration,
but that inspiration is to be Wow, look at how
that person achieved this tremendous goal by being who they are.
Let me figure out how I can maximize and tap
into the brilliance and power of who I am, because unfortunately,

(01:00:22):
what we end up doing is saying, well, if I
can't do that, then I'm nothing or I'm I'm worthless. Well, no,
this goes back to we eat. We're put here for
a purpose, and if we need to, you know, go
about her daily lives and maybe just make a note
of what went well today, what didn't go so well today?
How would I want things to be different in my

(01:00:43):
life based on what happened today. Then that can get
us closer to where it is that we want to be.
Social media isn't going to get us there, don't get
me wrong. Sometimes I you know, log in just to
see what funny thing happened, you know, today, and also
to be able to connect with the community because the
community is having important conversations at the same time, it

(01:01:04):
can become a tremendous distraction and some of us need
to be able to say, Okay, I'm gonna put this
app on my phone if it's important to me, not
to spend more than forty five minutes total per day
on social media, and I need help with that. Put
the app on the phone and lock it down. But
I understand it can be hard to do that. We
can take baby steps. If someone's at three hours, then

(01:01:25):
maybe say okay, I'm only gonna do two hours on Monday, Wednesday, Friday.
You know, everyone can take baby steps to where it
is they're trying to get the time, because I will
admit I have set the timers and they're like, it's
been forty five minutes, and I'm like, back off. Nobody
asked you. I definitely asked you, but I'm still gonna
do them squirrel. So it is something you have to
be conscious of and it takes time. So so slow

(01:01:47):
baby steps, be graceful or be gracious with yourself. You
have a take on the word should, the idea of
should and how it relates to problem solving. What is that?
Can you break it down? Yeah? Us? And I pause
because you you should it earlier and I thought, oh,
tell me wait, call me out, call me out, Dr Rita.

(01:02:08):
When did I should? I can't remember. It was about
I don't know, maybe fifteen or so minutes ago, and
it's like I hear the word, I'm just like, oh,
I know what we intend I should is presumably a motivator,
right like I should exercise more, or I should get

(01:02:30):
more sleep, I should call and check on my friend.
And it's supposed to be a motivator. But what it
does is to actually just make us feel bad one
because we were shooting on something that we didn't do obviously,
and then it immobilizes us rather than give us an
opportunity to figure out what needs to happen. And so

(01:02:52):
and my students, you know, they all know, like, just
don't don't use this word shoot around her. Just don't
do it like she's cringed on the inside. If we instead,
let's say it would be helpful, and I'll, you know,
I'll use the example of um of social media. You know,
it would be helpful if I spent less time on
social media. Okay, it would be helpful, But I'm not

(01:03:13):
doing that. M what's keeping me from spending less time?
What am I getting from social media? Is there another
place that I can get what I'm getting from social media?
Is it because I lose track of time? Then yes,
put the app on the phone and even if you
push back, you might say, why am I pushing back

(01:03:33):
on the app? Am I avoiding something else? Is this
really that good? You know? Because after a while you
know it's not. But so much you can get right,
like the first twenty minutes you've gotten something, and by
a minute number seventy nine you're not getting anything else,
you know, like what is really going on? And so
we can replace should with anything with anything? And I'll

(01:03:54):
give you an example, because Charlemagne tried to trick me
um some weeks ago with anything. It's so how funny
you bring him up, because I was just thinking about
him at this exact moment. He said, how did he
How did he try to set you up? Charlemagne? Can
you not he did? He said, well, you shouldn't smoke crack, right,
I can hear him asking the question, okay, and what

(01:04:14):
what was your response? I was, I was stump for
about one eighth of a second, and I said, it
would be helpful if a person didn't smoke crack, But
what's making them smoke crack? Like what is going on
in their environment? We assume they have a physical addiction, yes,
and so we have to help with the physical addiction.
You know what's keeping them from getting the help from

(01:04:35):
the addiction is that resources, you know, start the problem solved.
That what was it that prompted them to start using
the crack in the first place. Because we have to
be able to address the underlying issues, you know, we
have to be able to problem solve. So saying you
know why I shouldn't use substances or I shouldn't drink
you know, four glasses of wine every night? Well or
four bottle that four bottle? You know, like, what is

(01:04:58):
the underlying issue? Because just saying well, I should or
I should not, it just makes us feel bad because
we're gonna keep doing it anyway. Instead, let's try and
figure out what the hindrances are to being able to
address whatever the issue is. Okay, just a heads up.
In this next segment, I want to share a content

(01:05:21):
warning as we will be discussing suicide. So if you
find this topic triggering, please check the episode description the
show notes for the specific time codes and you can
skip past this segment. Dr Rito, we talked about this
briefly just before you know we started the conversation recording,
and it is suicide is becoming such a topic of conversation.

(01:05:46):
We are losing so many beautiful souls, and people are
so surprised sometimes by the folks that we're losing. And
you know, to touch back on the the idea of
high functioning depression and us not sometimes realizing what this
depression or anxiety looks like, what it presents as UM,
I think sometimes feeds this surprise. You know, Chesley Christ

(01:06:09):
was a former Miss USA, beautiful woman inside and out,
one of my fellow entertainment news reporters, and she committed suicide. UM.
Not too long ago, the Walking Dead actor Moses Moseley
died from a gunshot wound to the head. UM. A
Black cheerleader, nineteen years old. This was just this was
very recently, Arlana Miller Um. She left a painfully raw,

(01:06:33):
seemingly clearheaded suicide note where she she laid it out
so plainly. That's what broke my heart the most is
that she had thought about this UM considerably. UM. And
often where are we as a community, particularly UM black,
the Black community at the intersection of mental health when

(01:06:53):
it comes to suicide. From your observation and experience, well,
there's so many different ways to think about this, and
I think first and foremost, it's important for the audience
to know that I think of suicide and those of
us who who operate in this space, we think of
it as preventable. And that's why we have to have
these conversations so that we can be aware that the

(01:07:18):
inner workings of a person is oftentimes not something that
you're going to see on the outside. We have learned
and perfected masking, We have perfected showing up no matter
what is happening on the inside, and so even if
someone is an overwhelming pain, if they don't want to

(01:07:41):
share that with you, they will not And that's why
we have to check on people before they get to
a place of crisis. And I say this to my
doc students all the time. If your patients or if
your clients get to a place where they are ready
to die, there is nothing that you can do, and
it is it is jarring for them, but I need

(01:08:03):
them to know that if they haven't done the work
on the front end to put in place strategies and
things that that client can do to get through that
moment of crisis, then it's not going to work out
in the end as far as saving that their lives.
But there are things that we can do much farther upstream,

(01:08:25):
so that those folks know that they're not alone, that
there is someone there with them, that they don't have to,
you know, suffer in silence. But we have to start
laying this groundwork pretty early on um in life, you know,
when they're starting to struggle, so they don't, in fact,
you know, rely on the mask, because the mask can

(01:08:47):
be the default. You know, it really is the default.
As long as I look good on the on the outside,
then I'm okay. Um, as long as I'm not you know,
in a mental breakdown, I'm okay. And that's why we
have to start to shift these conversation asians right right.
Time magazine reports that among black youth and young adults
in particular, suicide rates have climbed steadily over the past

(01:09:09):
two decades. You know, I mentioned Chestle earlier obviously that
the young woman, the black cheerleader who also took her
life very recently and actually quoted the quote that Chestly
shared in her final Instagram post, May this day bring
you rest and peace, and those two words rest in peace.

(01:09:29):
It just got it. It gives me chills to think
about because I think so many of us can relate
to the lack of that, to the desperate need for that,
and I would so appreciate if you can speak to
for black women specifically, there seems to be a gap
or a misconception around what someone who commits suicide looks

(01:09:51):
like and we don't tend to to fit that bill.
Why do you think there is such a misconception around
or gap between um, who commits suicide and really this
black women specifically to this conversation, but just big picture,
who commits suicide and who doesn't commit suicide? Because I
think that will help inform why we're so surprised when

(01:10:13):
someone that would I would never think that type of
person would do that. Does it? What are what? Where
is the disconnect as a whole with our with our society.
It's interesting. There was a study uh some years ago
in which black pastors were interviewed and the thinking back
then was that, you know, because black people are so religious,
that black pastors, you know, being leaders in the community,

(01:10:35):
that they are the individuals who kind of have their
finger on the pulse of what's happening. And so what
they said was the conclusion of this study was that well,
suicide is a white thing, you know, first and foremost,
that's not something that a community of people who have
fought so hard to live would then, do you know,
to take one's own life. So I think that's part

(01:10:57):
of the narrative that still exists in our community. And so,
you know, the pastors were you know, able to communicate
that this just isn't who we are. And I really
do think that that reflected and continues to reflect what
we have in our community. Interestingly, when we look at
certain age groups of Black women, what we have seen

(01:11:18):
is that the suicide attempt rate, so those who have
an attempt but it's not a fatal attempt, that the
rates for those individuals from age eighteen to twenty five
or at least those are the statistics that came out
a couple of years ago, that they were comparable to
white women aged eighteen to twenty five. But what happens is,
you know, when someone has an attempt and they survive it, uh,

(01:11:40):
we don't necessarily know the family, you know, is secretive,
and so we don't understand that the person really was
in a serious crisis. Um. But now because the crises
are getting to be so overwhelming, um, individuals are using
more lethal means because of the COVID pandemic. I don't
know if a lot of people know that the preliminary
data suggests that more black people are dying by suicide,

(01:12:04):
you know, since in the in the midst of COVID,
white people are dying less. Um, so there's something that's
happening or has shifted differently in the community. And so,
you know, yes, if we're looking for people to be
a certain way, and maybe these are individuals who have
been uh propped up to some degree by over engaging

(01:12:25):
in activities and staying busy, and then maybe that prop
or those props have been taken away that you know,
when those individuals are alone and they're quiet space and
they're struggling, you know, with the thoughts and they're struggling
with the pain, and they're struggling with feeling like they're
a burden to other people, then we're not able to
get to them in time. And that's why folks have

(01:12:49):
been saying it, we have to figure out how to
institute this check on your strong friends. You know, those
are the ones who look like they have it all together,
everything's going fine. Uh, you know, they have so much success,
they have so much to live for. But it's because
we're not privy to the internal dialogue that they have
going on. You know, check on your strong friends. It's

(01:13:10):
we hear it, we say it. It's so true, and
it's so important because so often those strong friends are
struggling with some of the stereotypes or the labels right
that we talked about earlier, the pressure to live up
to that label of strong black woman, of superwoman, of
you know, whatever, whatever it happens to be, and maybe
don't even know how to ask for the help that

(01:13:32):
they have never considered someone might be willing to give
or ready to give if it was just articulated. Um,
you mentioned loved ones, family and friends, not necessarily knowing,
I missed the signs. I had no idea. You know,
sometimes I'll sit down with people I do a lot
of true crime reporting, and I'm speaking with the mothers,

(01:13:53):
the fathers, the sisters and brothers of missing people, some
of whom the authorities suspect have committed sue aside. And
so I'm in the room with these people while they're
sobbing and saying they wouldn't do it. It's not suicide.
And my heart breaks and who knows, right, who knows
if it was suicide, who knows if um it was

(01:14:14):
something else that, if it was homicide. But at the
end of the day, there is just there's such a
strong rebuke of anyone we know, any know, anyone we
love doing something like that. How do you feel about that?
I think, and this is just me personally speaking, the
idea that I would say my my mother, my father,

(01:14:38):
my love and would never do that. In recent years,
I won't say that anymore because the truth is I'm
realizing through my own personal experiences, through the news, through headlines,
we never know. You just never know. What are your

(01:14:58):
thoughts on that they would never do that? A line?
You know? The thing about people who die by suicide,
and we have these narratives um of the they're being
cowards or or something like that. Unfortunately, and people who
die by suicide don't necessarily want to die. We have

(01:15:20):
to think of them as wanting to get away from
overwhelming pain. That they have something that they have been
struggling with and maybe they have been hiding it from
the family and friends because they knew how the family
would react. That gotten the messaging somehow they feel like,
you know, everyone else in the family is doing great

(01:15:40):
and I'm the I'm the weakest Lincoln. So I can't
you know, reach out and they have to get out
from under that pain. And I think we saw that,
uh in the letter from you know, the cheerleader in Louisiana,
you know, just talking about like I can't do this anymore. Um.
And it seems like in a lot of ways she
out like she was doing it on her own. Um.

(01:16:03):
And so again, we don't know someone's inner turmoil. And
that's what it is. It's it's this, it's this turmoil.
They want to be here, they want to be present.
They don't want to create conflict or pain for their
loved ones, but they just don't see any other way. UM.
And that that's and that when we can think more
so about this being the narrative. And I've talked to
people about this, you know, over the years, like wow,

(01:16:26):
I never thought of it that way. And maybe if
we do more of that, then will extend ourselves more.
And I understand everyone is tired, like everyone is overwhelmed
about something, you know, pick a day of the week,
everyone is overwhelmed aby a thing. But when we have
those moments where maybe we're not so overwhelmed. It can
actually give us a little bit of a boost to

(01:16:46):
reach out to someone else, you know, and it doesn't
have to be you know, in our low conversation. Just
send a text say hey, you just want you to
know you were on my mind. I was thinking about you.
Um the other thing there there's you know, there's so
much a about this. I don't I don't I know
that we don't realize in our society that as a whole,
more people die by suicide than by homicide. And that's

(01:17:10):
because of how it's addressed in the media. We think,
you know, homicide is happening everywhere all the time. Suicide
is happening more often than is homicide. So just you know,
I haven't looked at the numbers recently, but we will
say if there's thirty five or forty thousand homicide debts
per year, it's more like fifty or fifty five thousand

(01:17:31):
suicide debts per year. We just don't talk about it
as much. Now in the black community, there are more
homicide than there are suicides. But I'm suspicious about some
of those numbers, um to be sure. But we also
have to talk about we can we can talk about
suicide as a something that has happened more so than
something that has been committed, because yes, suicide actually used

(01:17:54):
to be a criminal behavior, and so we talk about
committing suicide because we historically thought of it as a crime.
And so we're now shifting away from there is something
going on for this individual, that suicide happened, they die,
that that was the cause of death, but not necessarily
that they committed um and act. And so I think

(01:18:14):
is we continue to shift these conversations and shift these narratives,
we will see more people coming forward. Well, we can't
expect for someone who's in pain to be able to
reach out for help. And that's why those of us
in the community have to check on our strong friends
and everybody else when we can't. Yes, yes, yes, for
for someone who may be listening today, you know, we

(01:18:35):
have um things to think about when it comes to
checking on our strong friends, when it comes to reaching out. Um,
what if we are the person who's hearing this, who's
listening right now and thinking I've been dealing with passive
suicidal ideation, I've been I don't know, I'm just feeling
a little bit depressed. It's not it's not feeling like
a normal bout of sadness, um or my thoughts are

(01:18:58):
getting dark. What would you say directly to the person
who's listening right now, who might be struggling and they
feel like they have nowhere to turn or they have
not quite broken those those um chains or the or
let go of the burden of asking for help, or
maybe they don't have the family, the friends, or the
support system. Realistically, who would show up for them? What

(01:19:20):
would you say to someone struggling right now? That's a
that's a good question, and one of the things that
we talk to people who are in potential crisis, you know,
like things just aren't quite going right or going their way,
that they do want to put a plan in place
for themselves when the thoughts get extra dark, because what

(01:19:41):
happens is that when those thoughts get dark, it can
be hard to problem solve your way out of that.
You know, people who are in crisis, you know, do
have diminished problem solving capacity, and so what that ends
up looking like could be a suicide attempt because they
don't know there's another way, and the crisis is oftentimes
you know, temporary you know, we say, like, you know,
it'll be better tomorrow, Like it really will be better tomorrow,

(01:20:04):
but you gotta get to tomorrow. And so for some folks,
it really is doing some mindfulness activity, you know, mindfulness
with the five senses, and you know, what are five
things that I see? And what are four things that
I hear in three things? And there's all kinds of
YouTube videos. So creating a plan for yourself for the
dark times. For some people, it really is a specific song,

(01:20:24):
um or a playlist of songs. Some people need a
three minute playlist. Some people could use a thirty minute playlist.
Like create music because music is powerful that gets us
out of the rut that we're in. Sometimes. You know,
people just need a change of space or location. So shoot,
if you're in the bedroom, Uh, go out on the
balcony if there's a balcony, or go outside. You can't

(01:20:46):
do that if there's a thousand degrees like it is
in Houston sometimes. But what can you do to shift
your space? Um, maybe you just need to go sit
in the car and run the air conditioning for a
few minutes. But put the plan in place so that
those dark times happen. It doesn't become a moment of
extra crisis. Um. So those are some of the things

(01:21:07):
that you know that we talked to, you know, our
clients and our patients about. And there are folks who
do have a network. You know, maybe they can say, okay,
here the people that I will call what I'm thinking
about suicide? Like who are those people? Who are the
people that I can call who aren't going to do
well with me saying I have a mental health crisis,
but they're good for a joke or maybe me listening

(01:21:30):
to their problems will distract me from what's going on
with me. It can be someone who drags us down.
You know, we know who those folks are. When you
talk to them, they got a sad word, you know,
if you be that individual. Um, you know, maybe it
is a podcast, you know, you know, Zuri is having
a good time all the time. You know your podcast.
You know, go listen to Zuri for just a few

(01:21:51):
a few minutes. Um, you know. But but putting a
plan in place that has at least four things on
it to say, these are things that I'm going to
try in these in these desperate in these desperate moments. Okay, okay,
for someone who may be on the receiving line of
someone opening up, thank God and saying I'm in pain,

(01:22:12):
I'm having dark thoughts, I'm considering suicide potentially. Um, can
you break down, just really briefly, the A B c's
that you mentioned in your book, how we show up
for those in emotional pain. Yeah. You know people who
are you know, in pain and feeling hopeless. They don't
feel like anyone who's really hearing them, you know, and
we want to be helpful, right, So someone struggling and

(01:22:33):
we say, oh, you're gonna be fine or oh you'll
get through this. Mm hmm, that's not as helpful as well,
tell me more about what's going on. You know, I
am here with you, and so I used the A
B c s. It's in the first chapter of the
book to to break this down for individuals that with
the A assume that you're being present is being helpful.

(01:22:54):
There are a lot of people who may not want
to hear about suicide crisis because they think they don't
know what to do. You don't have to do anything,
but just you know, be aware that your presence means
more than anything. And the B is in fact, to
be present so you know, if someone comes to you
and they're in crisis. You know, if you're in a

(01:23:14):
car driving, say, you know what, let me let me
pull over, um, so I can listen to what you're saying.
Or Okay, I've got a few minutes, um, but I
need to wrap up this one thing. Just give me
thirty seconds. You know, I'll call you back and be
there with them. And the sea has canceled the judgment.
The judgment may not be intentional, but when it's you know,

(01:23:35):
oh it's that's that's not that bad. You know, like
what you're going through isn't that serious. Let me tell
you about what I'm going through. Oh my goodness, that's
not doing what we intend. We have to be able
to listen non judgmentally, to hear the person out, you know,
to hear their story because what that communicates to them

(01:23:56):
is that they matter and more important than anything that
we got going on. We're going to be present for
them because they are most important in that moment in time. Okay,
you have this idea of psychological fortitude that I want
to wrap up with, but just really quickly, are there
certain resources or tools that you would recommend people check out?
If they're interested in learning more about mental health, crisis

(01:24:19):
intervention services, suicide prevention. Well, you know, I I wrote
the book primarily because of how we need to shift
these conversations. And psychological fortitude is narrated throughout the book
because when we think about mental health, somehow that that
language has gotten hijacked and we think it means being crazy,
but what it really means is that we are existing

(01:24:40):
in a crazy world. Um, and we have to figure
out ways to to navigate that. And so, you know,
they're all sorts of resources. You know, we think about
therapy for for black girls and for individuals who are
trying to find a place to make sense of who
they are. Um. You know, with mental health professionals who
can kind of you know, relate. We don't assume that

(01:25:01):
just because someone is black that they understand everything about
the individual, but they would presumably be trained to be
able to ask the questions that have the most impact
on making shifter changes in the individuals in the individual's life.
And I haven't said this yet, but sometimes when we
just kind of sitting right down, the things that are
upsetting us most, you know, the people who got on

(01:25:24):
our nerves, the most uh, the circumstances that are driving
us or we feel like are making us most insane.
When we can sit and put those things on paper
rather than replaying them in our minds what we call
ruminating over these same circumstances, it can give us a
different perspective. And I think that's what we need to
be doing more of us is completely shifting our perspective

(01:25:45):
around some of these conversations that have been happening, they
haven't been so helpful so that we can get to
a place where we're creating new solutions for our communities. Well,
Dr Rita, you said you need so much more than
mental health or well being in this era of describine
nation and visibility and psychological warfare. You need psychological fortitude.

(01:26:05):
So I'm gonna leave our audience with the tease, the
tease of that that so true and so beautifully stated sentence.
So if you want to understand more about what psychological
fortitude is, if you want um the keys that Dr
Rita is offering up, her book is a great place
to start. One more time, Dr Rita, the title of
the book and where we can find it. So the
book is the unapologetic guide to black mental health. It's

(01:26:29):
everywhere that folks buy books. Folks can go to Bars
and Noble and probably pick it up off the shelf
even today, but also on my website, Dr Rita Walker
dot com. Rita's spelled a little bit differently because that's
how we do, and Rita is r H E E
D as in diamond A. All right, Dr Rita, thank
you so so so much for your expertise, your knowledge,

(01:26:52):
your spirit, your energy is just so beautiful. It's it's contagious.
These are some heavy conversations and heavy topics, but the
way that you express us and break it all down,
it is relatable and accessible and that's so important these
days as we try to lift that veil and remove
that stigma. So thank you so much for joining me.
Thank you, it's been great to be with you. Thank

(01:27:12):
you again, Dr Rita for joining me on Hot Happy
Mess this week. I so so so so appreciated her time,
our conversation, and again for all of the resources that
were mentioned. You can head over to Hot Happy Mess
dot com. It's where we share all of the show
notes and it's also where you can submit your story
as a real woman um or as a WTF confession

(01:27:34):
or hashtag asked Sorry, if you want to ask me
some questions and I'll give some advice. I have no
promises that it will be good advice, but it'll be advice. Okay,
So stay tuned for more episodes. They're coming every Wednesday.
So much in store. You're gonna love it. What was
that bend on the R I don't know. We've got
a lot coming up that are going to give you

(01:27:55):
the tools you need to create balance, established boundaries, manifest happiness,
find peace, and cultivate relationships with others and most importantly yourself. Okay,
it's all comment. Every Wednesday, new episodes of How Happy
Mess Baby, So don't forget to tell a friend, share
us again. If you love this episode, pass it along
to someone who might benefit from it. Tag us on

(01:28:16):
social so we see it at Zuri Hall and at
Hot Happy Mess. Hit me up sliding the d M s.
You talk, I love to talk back and I'll talk
to you next Wednesday. Bye,

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