June 30, 2025 • 56 mins
Gregg Rosenthal is joined by ESPN's Mina Kimes to reveal numbers 25 through 21 of NFL Daily's Top 25 Players of the Last 25 Years. Gregg and Mina start the list with Kansas City Chiefs TE Travis Kelce (02:59), followed by Pro Football Hall-of-Famer Terrell Owens at number 24 (13:20), Pittsburgh Steelers OLB T.J. Watt at number 23 (22:59), Pro Football Hall-of-Famer Walter Jones at number 22 (32:05), and Baltimore Ravens QB Lamar Jackson at number 21 (41:05).
Note: time codes approximate.
Don't miss any of NFL Daily's Top 25 Players of the Last 25 Years where Gregg is joined by ESPN's Mina Kimes and Bill Barnwell, Yahoo! Sports' Nate Tice, NFL Network's Steve Wyche and Brian Baldinger and broadcasting legend Kevin Harlan to break down the best NFL players since the turn of the century.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to NFL Daily's Top twenty five players of the
last twenty five years. Yes, this is the first episode.
It's going to be a six part series. I'm really
excited about And there is no one I would rather
start the series with than my friend Mina Kimes of ESPN.
(00:23):
This is a big responsibility, Mina taking the first episode.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hello, I'm excited to do this. The players that are
in this bunch are great. This is a great group.
I mean, they're all great, that's the general premise of
this entire thing, but they're really fun players to talk about.
So I'm particularly excited to be twenty five through twenty one.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Yeah, a couple things I noticed putting the list together
that it's backloaded, like the current players are more towards
the back. Don't blame Mina or any of the future
guests that are coming on the show. It is my list,
but that they're coming on to give their impressions. And
we have a lot of great guests. Kevin Harlan is
going to be on the show coming up, your buddy,
Nate Tice, Brian Baldinger, Steve Weis. It's going to be
really great. Just a couple of little ground rules. Though,
(01:06):
for the listeners out there, if they're curious, it was
more about sustained greatness over like a three to five
year period. Was like where I started, like, you're not
going to be on this list if you only had
one or two great years. That's almost a prerequisite. But
it wasn't about longevity to me. It was like who
was the very best and maybe longevity is a little
(01:27):
bit of a tiebreaker.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Do you think that's like a fair way to do it? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:32):
I do.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
I mean we're talking about especially when you're talking about
top twenty five, it's tough, man. Yeah, you're gonna have
to make some really difficult cuts and you're gonna have
to set guidelines. I think around like, it's kind of
like when we do general debates that we're like who's
the greatest of all time? You have to take longevity
into account. You can't just be like a guy at
(01:53):
his peak. I actually think the player you're starting with
is a great He really is. He really is perfect
fodder for this exact question is exact debate because there's
another player who he's constantly compared to, who I think
is probably also on your list, and you're by starting
with this player, you're making drawing a line in the sand,
really and you're kind of it's a take.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Honestly, it absolutely is, which means we should just get
to it. But yes, he's on one side of the equation.
You're absolutely right, you're gonna find out. And a second
on the other side, for instance, is maybe a guy
like no Imdasamawa or something. And not that he was
close to making this list at all, but for a
three to four year period he was one of the
coldest cornerbacks of the last twenty five years. Like, obviously
(02:36):
he's not gonna make it because that's too short of
an absolute peak. But this list is full of guys
who had crazy high peaks.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Larry Fitzgerald is not on this list, for instance.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
I don't want to spoil too much, but he's a
guy when you look at it, not that he was
a compiler, but a one first time All Pro or
first team All Pro, like two second teams, his highs
weren't quite as high.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Let's just get the little list. Let's go to number
twenty five.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Number twenty five, Travis Kelcey Maholmes gets the shotgun snap
pulps throws for the end.
Speaker 5 (03:08):
Zone to Kelsey Asting makes the catch touchdown.
Speaker 4 (03:13):
Travis Kelcey put a touchdown in.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
The back right corner of the in zone.
Speaker 5 (03:19):
Kansas City wins it forty two thirty six and over time.
Speaker 6 (03:26):
Patrick Mahomes back does get up the road middle Travis Kelcey,
this dude's taking over and been dominant in the playoffs.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
When Mahomes throws doing they have a.
Speaker 5 (03:34):
One forty quarterback writing, I mean, this is Montane wife territory.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
I don't care what people call us.
Speaker 5 (03:38):
I know I'm back to back and I won three
in whatever year.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Y'all can call us the dynasty.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
You can call us whatever you guys want.
Speaker 5 (03:44):
I know we got it.
Speaker 7 (03:45):
Something more special than really what you've seen in the
NFL is because the guys in his locker room, in
the headcoach.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
It has been a wild dirty we have been on
with Travis Kelcey.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
I remember when he slips in the draft because of
tests and stuff and underrated and comes out. He was
older when he came out, twenty four years old. He
didn't have his first thousand yard season un till he
was twenty seven years old. And yet he is one
of the most famous certainly and one of the defining players.
I mean, you started this whole thing already saying I'm
making a take. What do you think that take is
(04:21):
putting him at twenty five?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Well, I guess that take depends I'm making an assumption,
which is that Rob Gronkowski comes later.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Yeah, you're in this list.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Okay, So that's the take, right, Because this is the debate,
and it's a debate, the debate between Gronkowski and Kelsey,
and I think is a really good debate, and I
think it's not one that's like there's an obviously glaring
right answer. I think you can argue either side. It's
about longevity, it's about dominance, it's about peaks, it's about
postseason accomplishments. It's also about the nature of this particular position.
(04:51):
I think that's the most important thing. Is when you're
talking about who is better, who was greater, who was
more dominant, you were also talking about, well, what are
we expecting out of the tight end position?
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Aolute And yeah, his blocking obviously is not nearly what
Rob Gronkowski's is. But I don't want I don't want
to be comparing those two the whole time, because at
first he wasn't even on my list, and then I
started thinking about, yeah he was well because I'm thinking
about absolute dominance.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Who are the best?
Speaker 1 (05:15):
But it's crazy the Hall of famers that are not
making this list. I mean there are there are a
lot of them. This is a it's a tough list.
But for first team All pros three seconds. He's on
the All two thousand and tens team for the Hall
of Fame that they put out. He has the numbers
like most yards, most playoff touchdowns now, like third in
receiving yards among tight ends. So the numbers are all
(05:37):
there in terms of counting stats, and I just think
his peak wasn't like as high as some of the
guys higher on this list. But it is ridiculous, meana,
how many defining moments he's had. And it's because he's
been in the playoffs so long, but it's because he
finished those games that catch you.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Heard to start.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
It was the Divisional round, maybe the best game of
this decade that he finishes in the overtime against Buffalo.
He's had like so many walkoffs, including against the Chargers.
We might hurt hear that one a little later, like
him beating Kyle Hamilton in the AFC Championship just a
couple of years ago. The walk, Like, he's had so
many absolute big moments and he's just been incredibly consistent, and.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
He had to make this list.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
I talked to our friend Nick right because I was
thinking about Tony Gonzalez because his all pros and his
numbers are just outrageous. But I think at his peak,
Kelsey was ultimately better, and obviously he deserves to be here.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah, a lot of thoughts on Traus Kelsey. First of all,
I think because of the comparison to Gronk and because
of who he is a disappointing career his career, we
forget he was an okay blocker. He wasn't like he
was never as dominant as Gronk, and that is a
huge part of the argument for Gronk if one wants
to make that argument, but he wasn't bad, I just
(06:51):
I want to throw that out there. He still isn't
actually that bad. He just gets used differently, And a
lot of the way he gets used has to do
with the fact that he has not been surrounded by
world beaters outside of Tyreek Hill. I think that also
bears mentioning this offense has been run through, has run
through Travis Kelcey at so many points in so many
(07:13):
big games, and certainly since Tyreek Hill left since then,
and that's not something you see very often. A lot
of his usage is because of that. It's born out
of necessity. I would also argue, and this is something
I would say is a little bit is if you
weren't to make a case for him over Gronk, he
(07:34):
to me, Greg is the single best zone coverage beater
maybe of our lifetime. Maybe that's a little bit too rich.
We think about some of the receivers, but certainly amongst tight.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Ends, no question amongst tight ends. And you're right, I
would have to think about that list. And that's why
he was a tough one for me of where to
put him, Like is he high enough? He's one of
only two tight ends on this list. I don't mind
spoiling like that is his trademark. And you saying how
his usage went up, like his best season was twenty twenty,
(08:07):
that that cursed season with no crowds or anything, that
he was just going crazy. He actually got a few
Offensive Player of the Year votes that that was one metric,
Like was he ever at the super top where he's
winning those sorts of awards, not so much, but that year,
you know, fourteen hundred yards, like over one hundred catches
and just totally dominant. And to me, he's had a
(08:27):
better career than Antonio Gates.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
He's the key player other.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Than Patrick Mahomes in you know, the best dynasty that
we've seen other than the Patriots dynasty, not just the
last twenty five years, but one of them in the
history of the NFL. And the thing that's crazy that
you pointed out, Mina is he's actually gotten better as
he's lost juice. One of the fun things I've gotten
to do with this exercise. I just go back watch
some old tape or watch some old highlights, and you know,
he's ripping off eighty yard screen passes in twenty seventeen,
(08:54):
twenty eighteen. You're like, oh, yeah, Travis Kelcey used to
have so much juice. And yet because he has a
ridiculous mind meld, maybe the best since Montana to Jerry Rice,
as Mahomes to Kelsey, he's actually gotten better as he's
gotten older.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I do like that, Like, you can't really punish eitherism
for the quarterback because they both played with like the
two greatest quarterbacks, right, So yeah, it's not like, well,
Travis Kelsey got to play with Patrick Mahobes. I swear
to God, I'm not gonna only talk about Trales Kelsey
do the lens of Ropper Gronkowski, but Gronk got to
play with But I think right now he is in
that phase, the one last job phase of his career
where all they need is for him to be big
in huge moments in certain games, the same way that
(09:31):
Gronk was in the infamous RAM super Bowl victory on
that one last drive. Yeah, I think with Kelsey, like,
I absolutely think he belongs on Listless. Yes, let's start there,
because it's just like the TI, he really marries all
of it, longevity, peaks, playoff, accomplishments, big.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Games, random reality shows.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
That's the other thing is like watching those clip like
because he's played for so long at this point and
as his persona has evolved so much, it's kind of
like his girlfriend's eras, like we do have Travis Kelce's. Yeah,
that's that, by the way, is all I know about Ty.
I've reached the limits of the slip jokes. That I
can make, but like, there have been points in his
(10:19):
career where he's been used in different plays where he's
where he's played different roles in that offense, where he
has sounded different he talks, and it's like he to me, like,
you really can't tell the story of the NFL over
the last ten years without him. Yeah, I just spectacular
football player.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
That It was part of my reasoning. Not only that
he was on a lot of these guys were going
to be on. Who were the most painful to leave off?
When I had him off first, I was like, oh,
that's too painful and Chiefs fans are going to want
to hear this, But there were there were a lot
of like Chiefs that were right. I thought about Chris Jones,
I thought about Tony Gonzalez.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
They were among the first.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
People to be left offices that I was like, it
would be too painful to leave Kelsey, who, yes, not
only entertain millions, including the namesake of the studio, Chris
Westling and Lakeisha Westling were hardcore fans of Catching Kelsey
at the time, the only two people I know that
were watching every single episode. But yes, like authored so
(11:17):
many moments that I can remember, let's actually look back
because one thing I found looking through like his greatest
plays in his greatest games, so many of them came
against the Chargers. It's just outrageous that I just want
to play one of them.
Speaker 6 (11:29):
Get all number three on the all time Chiefs touchdown
catch list. Would one to night now just one catch
shay otis Taylor. Here is Kelsey, still going, still going, Kelsey,
good night, touchdown Chiefs.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Winning the thing I remembered more, not that I should have,
but he has so many good after the catch plays
where he just puts that foot in the dirt and
gets everyone to go one way, and you don't think
of him like that.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
And half of them are against the Chargers.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I mean, he has two game winning touchdowns against the Chargers.
He has one hundred and ninety yard game against the Chargers.
I believe that that was part of that, Like he
so many of them was just like breaking the rest
of the AFC's hearts, especially the Charger.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
It's funny because I feel like Derwin James on the
Chargers has been thought of as one of the dudes
you can count on to try to handle Travis Kelsey.
I think that's the other thing that's so unique about him.
Whenever we've talked about the Chiefs over the last few
years is certainly when during the Tyree Kill era, it
was a lot about how you handle that level of
speed and it was game tilting. But I know as
an analyst, every time I've talked about this team and
(12:33):
playing them and the defenses, it always starts with, Okay,
who's on Kelsey? What is your game plan? What is
your approach to him? Are you comfortable playing zone coverage?
The question you ask always about the Chiefs, right like
do you have the capability to man up this team?
And if you do, who's on Kelsey? Like I just
I think that's a when I think about like great
(12:54):
players and whether or not they qualify for a list
like this. From my not to be solipsistic perspective, I
think through, Okay, when I'm thinking about this team and
their games, this is the first person I think of,
how do you stop them? And he could make that
same argument for Chris Jones, by the way, who I
do think was probably a tough cut.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
It was he was an extremely tough cut, And like
I said, there's a lot of Hall of Famers not
on this list, So It's tough to make those cuts,
but I'm glad Kelsey is on. I'm also glad I
have our next guy.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
Number twenty four, Terrell Owens.
Speaker 5 (13:25):
Terrel Owens down the sideline, getting the first down and
continuing richeld move backing sow Owens Loo's a big run
all the.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
Way under the XIL for the forty nine touchdown.
Speaker 5 (13:36):
Another seventy five yard play, this time terror Owards.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
Doing it after the catch, throw it and doing see
you off the play.
Speaker 5 (13:46):
Rolling right the touchdown, ter Olands.
Speaker 6 (13:51):
Theren's are going right to the center of the stadium.
Speaker 8 (13:56):
Rug to the Dallas Cowboys all going yah, see it
touchdowns again.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
Heading from midfield there he goes.
Speaker 6 (14:05):
He's there's gonna be a penalty on George t because
he's gonna clock them, so ow it's just gonna show
him up again.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
And Tik just said, the heck with it. This game's
over anyway. I'm just gonna take a cheap shot at him.
We are wrapping.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yeah, that little celebration ofterrell Owens with him sleeping on
the football. He could make this list just off the celebrations.
You kind of forget how many of them were so iconic. Uh,
you got the popcorn eating the popcorn. You have the
Sharpie signing the ball, you have the Seahawks, you have
the pomp Poms grabbing and doing the pomp Pom dance.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
You have him, of course doing.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Holding his arms up to the sky at the old
Texas Stadium. It's it's just amazing and five first team
All pros kind of what you imagine Mina when you
think of at least back in the day, there's not
as many of these guys of like, what would you
want your number one to look like? Six three, two
hundred and twenty five pounds and just fast as hell.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
I went down a rabbit hole watching too highlights when
I saw he was on your list, And one of
the highlights was just every catch he made against the
Chicago Bears in the record breaking game that I think
was Brandon Brushall Brooke that if I remember, yeah catches, yeah,
and it's it's a great mix of just you know,
slants and hitches, but then also some couple deep balls
(15:27):
as well, and you really get a full sense of
like his unbelievable skill set, which really was. I mean,
he was good a lot of things, but at that size,
the speed the breakaway speed. First of all, he was
really physical, really strong, good contested catch guy. Some of
his most famous catches are like that. But then like
(15:47):
the breakaway speed and movement abilities he had at his
size were so rare, it's like you're like you put it.
I mean there's another. I'm sure Calvia Johnson's going to
come later, but but it does feel like he was
like built in a lob to be a true X.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah, a little different, like better after the catch even
than Calvin Johnson, and but still had like the mobility.
And I know he had some drops certainly along the
way and wasn't like as great a separator, say as
Antonio Brown, who was a tough cut from this list
ultimately because I just just on the field watching him.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
He was among the very best I ever saw.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
But he's a guy who, till the end of his
career was just a big play machine. He averaged fourteen
point eight yards per catch for his whole career that
like never fell off. He's third all time in receiving yards.
He was on the All Decade team. He was timed
very well for this list his breakout season, and that
was part of it. I did not consider any nineteen
(16:46):
nineties seasons. So even if you started in the nineties,
like a Randy Moss for instance, that wasn't part of
the equation. And his breakout season to was two thousand
and five first team All Pros And man, he didn't
have like a ton of playoff moments. He had he
had to catch too, certainly with the forty nine ers
(17:07):
when he was young in his career. But you remember
that performance he had against the Eagles where Belichick has
said many times how he assumed to is not going
to be in that game or not gonna look like
to because he's coming off of a broken leg, and
he goes nine for one twenty two and almost kind
of carries them to a Super Bowl win all by
himself while he was a member of the Eagles.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
The was the finger game before that was after that,
right when he had the plate in his finger and
he came back and played. And that's the other thing
we got to talk about with him. Yeah, this is
the unbelievable toughness, which and it's the other thing about him,
like just like the perfect I talk about him being
like the perfect wide receiver, lab built ride receiver. The
personality is like when people think about wide receivers better
(17:49):
or worse, and I say better for better or worse
because you know, was he always the best teammate? No,
did he rebul the wrong way? Sure, but holy smokes,
his dude was tough and was a competitor. I mean,
like some of the injuries that he overcame to play,
I feel like, maybe more so than he has some
(18:10):
of the most iconic coming off in injury games of
any player in NFL history. And it is funny to
me that like he contained multitudes in that way, right,
Like we think of this like diva personality, but then
he was tough as nails. I don't know, he was
just kind of an interesting mix of contradictions.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Yes, let's let's listen just to a little cut up
we have of some t o trashtock.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
I know you don't know me to sound put them
a sound in a way because I love me.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Tell me I.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Can hit me.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Oh, y'all won't do what you can stuff.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
He is an all time NFL Films sound effects guy,
like an all time NFL miked up guy. There's a
clip on YouTube from NFL Films with just thirteen minutes
of him on miked up and it's so good. And
one thing you do get from it is you're reminded,
like he was a team captain more than a few
times in his career, he was known as like one
(19:07):
of the if not the hardest workers on his team.
He learned literally from Jerry Rice, and he talks about that,
not only about how to work, but how to look
good on the field. He talks about that a lot,
and you just kind of think about him running over
all these guys and running past him, and it's just like,
that's what you want on your team. And yes, it
ended up sour at the end in a few places,
(19:29):
you know, in Dallas and San Francisco, like when it
went bad, it went bad. But the vast majority of
those years, especially the first couple of years in each spot,
even into Cincinnati at the end of his career, when
he's with Ocho Sinkle, he's still putting up a thousand
yards like he gave you everything he had. And so
that was why I didn't want to knock him too
badly for all that.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Well speaking, I mean, I mean, I have to bet
we run an NFL podcast, but I coverring this up.
He's not in the NFL one hundred. Did you know that?
I did not know that he was not, So then
I fell did the one hundred greatest Players of all time?
I think they did it a few years ago, five
years ago, and uh uh, let's see why. Let me
find the headline. He called it despicable and he was
(20:11):
left off, and like, I'm on his side. I mean,
come on, dude, he's third old time and receiving yards,
touchdown catches top ten and it's not just a long
He's not just a compiler, dominant seasons, one hundred yard games.
It's insane that he wasn't on that list. I'm just
gonna say, it's crazy.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Receivers the toughest position.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
So I think making this list okay when you're just
thinking about the last twenty five years in no particular order.
Julio Jones like is he like his peak was just
absolutely outrageous. Antonio Brown, he used to get into an
argument that at his very peak, I don't know if
anyone was any better. These are guys that are not
(20:55):
on the list. Larry Fitzgerald, like I mentioned, who's just
stacked up numbers like not on the list.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
It was very hard to separate wide receivers.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
But ultimately, yeah, the combination for me of just he
was a little bit uncoverable because even though he had
those drops at times, he was such a good contested
catch guy that like, even if you could cover my
Revis had some good battles with him later in his career,
even if you could cover him, like it didn't really
matter if he was playing his best.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
The Catch Tube being the perfect example of that. I
remember growing up when I first got access to like YouTube,
just watching that over and over and trying to like
understand it. It haven't right because it just doesn't just
like what wait the ball, Like how is this getting through?
And how is he winning for it? And yeah, it
(21:43):
was just yeah, remarkable. I was asking just one quick aside.
I was while I was watching Highlights, I was texting
a little bit with you. Mentioned Nate Tice and Danny
about who is the closest to him in this current generation,
and the consensus was AJ Brown is the player who's
most similar to t O, which I think is accurate.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
I think that's right, especially this version of AJ Brown,
like where he is right now, where we just did
a Receivers episode and we had him third overall because
I think he's such a complete receiver. I think Too
also warmed up to that spot too, as you mentioned,
like the catch Too, that was his big breakout in
San Francisco. Like, it's funny hearing them talk about him
early in his career, like he didn't speak, he was
(22:28):
very afraid to talk to the media. It was like
this shy guy until he wasn't. But yeah, Marvin Harrison
was another guy. Tyreek Kill was another guy that got
cut off this list. Marvin Harrison somewhat got cut off
from the ninety two thousand thing. But it's crazy how
hard it was to make it. So it just shows
you what kind of career Too had. Let's take a
quick break and we will be back with the next
(22:49):
guy on the list. Back on NFL Daily Best twenty
five players of the last twenty five years. And yeah,
(23:10):
as we go through some of these players, I will
be mentioning who didn't get off the list.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
I almost feel bad not saying it.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
It's like Justin Jefferson and Jamar Chase, they are building
up that resume, but they're getting cut off basically because
they haven't been in the NFL long enough.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Unlike our next.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
Guy, Number twenty three, TJ WAT.
Speaker 6 (23:27):
Sixty yards of offense for the Falcons since halftime Man.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
Cousins is sacked.
Speaker 6 (23:32):
Guess who TJ WAT put in an exclamation on this one.
Speaker 5 (23:38):
Big rush Hey kJ On has that suck.
Speaker 4 (23:42):
Unbelievable. TJ W comes around and.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Makes a sack.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Favorite pass rushler to watch. I mean, I have to say, TJ.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
What shoe string sick?
Speaker 3 (23:56):
From the master himself.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
TJ continues to run rough shot woop, Newton gets hit,
ball is out. That's it in trouble periods.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
TJ rock.
Speaker 6 (24:18):
He is now the Steelers franchise all time leader in
that category.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
The single most surprising player to make this list for
me in terms of I did not expect to be
putting him on when I started the list. He was
not even that close until I really started thinking about
the resume. Defensive Player of the Year Top four in
the voting four straight years, the last four years, four
all pros. The most sacks since he's entered the league,
(24:44):
the most forced fumbles by far since he's entered the league,
the most tackles for loss since he's entered the league,
the most sacks in his first eight seasons. Other than
Reggie White and DeMarcus where single season sack record led
the league in sacks three times, and I just thought about, like,
what are we talking about here? I'm talking about players
at the very top of their game. Even though I
feel a little lower than consensus on TJ. Watt in general,
(25:08):
I realize, like, not only is he a first ballot
Hall of Famer, but he deserves to make this list.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yeah, it kind of sneaks up on you how dominant
the numbers are. And we know, oh well, whenever we
do like we're the best three pass rushers in the NFL,
it's always TG Watt, Mouse Garrett and Blank Michael Parsons
right now, right, But I think you don't think of
him as like historically dominant until you look at what
you just described, the idea of that he has led
the NFL three times in sacks, twice enforced fumbles, that
(25:36):
he's reached such insane sack totals. It's kind of one
those things where you really have to take a step
back and realize how incredibly dominant he's been, which is
I think I'll throw something out. Do you feel like
maybe not he's that he's overlooked, But it seems so unbelievable.
(26:00):
JJ Watt could have a brother just right, like the
JJ Watt who his peaks were so high that his
brother came in and you were and you were like, uh,
you know, it's JJ Wat's brother. That he became what
he came seems so unlikely. Greg, maybe that plays into
(26:20):
it a little bit.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
I think so. I mean, you know, who agrees with
you the entire NFL?
Speaker 1 (26:24):
How did this guy go thirtieth in the draft, Because
for so many years all anyone said about JJ Watt was.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Like, how did he fall so far in the draft?
Speaker 1 (26:34):
I know he was like he's a you know, walk
on and he had a different sort of career. He's
like a late bloomer at Wisconsin. But it's like he's
two ninety five and the biggest, freakiest athlete with like
the best motor you've ever seen, and then had you know,
a first ballot Hall of Fame season. Obviously he is
going to be on this list coming up. And then
the exact same thing happened mean with d J Watt.
Just knowing like what happened with JJ and somehow that
(26:56):
it's like in them they we used the phrase like
they're built different. Like, so Watts apparently really are built different.
How did TJ. Watt get to thirtieth and then be
this big of a seal for the Steelers of all teams?
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yeah, I mean I guess, you know, genetics and also
just work ethic and technique. I mean, that's the thing
about TJ. Watt similar to JJ. But to focus on
TJ for a second, just such a complete player. I
think that's if you know, if I had to summarize
him in one word, it would be complete. He's so
(27:29):
good at everything. He's so good. Obviously, he is very
technically refined and fun to watch pass rusher, and that
is something he kind of has only gotten better at
over time as he's you know, added more to his repertoire.
He wins with speed, he wins with power. He wins
with speed to power. He's got great inside moves, like
(27:50):
he's just really really really smart. He's seen it all
and then he finishes, which is how you get the
high sack totals. But he's also a fantastic run defender
that matters if we're talking about like who are the
greatest of their generation. He's good in coverage, he's a
good moments coverage, he's read the quarterback, and he's just
he's just really really complete Greg. And I think when
(28:13):
you if you were able to hit that level, some
of it is nurture. Not to say that j Watt
and TG Wat's mom is over this, but like, clearly
these guys love ball and love studying ball, and that
has factored in.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
They've got that dog at him and they're always you're
always looking for intangibles, and it's tough to really evaluate that.
But I really do think like the fact that he
was jj Watt's brothers should have gotten him drafted higher
because because there is clearly something about how you can
improve at the NFL level that that they haven't helped
to master.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
And yeah, it is. It is the big plays.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
It is the knack over and over and over to
have game winning plays like it. Once it happens like
a few times, you're almost like, is this a little
fluky that he's getting all these force fumble Like, like
I said, he leads the NFL and forced fumbles, Uh,
since he entered the league. Is it a little fluky
that like his best plays keep coming at the end
(29:08):
of these games. It's like at a certain point you
have to just accept like, no, that that is not fluky,
just just you know, thinking a few He had a
game against the Ravens where he called game on Lamar
Jackson on a fourth down sack. He had the game
last year against the Falcons where he essentially called game
against then one. Right, Yeah, he essentially called game on
(29:33):
our boy Gino Smith in that Sunday night.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
I remember that.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Yeah, he has like a four sack game, you know,
he he's just had like when he goes big, he
goes so big and at the biggest moments, And I
do think that's that's how you get defined as like
one of the greatest of the greats.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Yeah, I feel like anyone on this list has to
have taken over a game or taken a game games, right,
but bo, you know, both the all of the guys
we've talked about thus far, you would put in that category.
And with a pass rusher, that's like a really high
bar because it doesn't happen that often. And there's probably
like three or four guys in the league right now
(30:11):
where you can say I can point to a few
times where that's happened, And yeah, certainly it's been TJ.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
Wild.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
There's there's something cool too about that he is like
the ed Rusher of the Pittsburgh Steelers, that he's continuing
that you know, tradition for that team.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
But he's the next and the greatest.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
And the reason why he wasn't high on my list
at first is I think I was a little biased
towards the players.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
That are in the middle of their prime.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
I mentioned before that like Justin Jefferson and Chase just
felt like just sure, if they had one or two
more years, like they really might make it. But seeing
you know, Wat's been in the league by now eight years,
and so why I started comparing them and you compare
his resume and here's some other guys. I'm just curious
your thoughts, like like a Kaleis Campbell, for instance, who
(30:56):
was All Proof Football Reference All twenty tens team, who
had a second place at a Defensive Player of the Year.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Jared Allen who's in the Hall of Fame.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Jason Taylor, who you know was a second team All
two thousands is in the Hall of Fame. But I
don't think, actually, when I looked at it, that his
highest of highs were as high as t J.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Watt.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Dwight Freeney was probably my toughest omission where his peak
maybe wasn't quite as long, but he was such a
good player. But those guys, like, none of them had
a defensive player of the year like top four type
of run that that TJ.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
Watt had.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Yeah, I think you can probably. I mean TJ. Wat's
been like top one to three for.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Four years.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah, at least.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
In some other years as well, where he wasn't that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yeah, none of the guys you mentioned I would put
over him, So I think that's fair. I am curious
now to see how high that another guy who i'd talked, well, yeah,
I don't want to. I don't want you to spoiler.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Oh it's okay, it's good. It's a good tease for
for the rest of us. Speaking of let's talk about
a player that I know you will enjoy discussing number.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
Twenty two, Walter Jones.
Speaker 5 (32:11):
Let's be anything on the way head with me. I
want you to come in, you know, and try to
attack him. It's an honor to join Steve Larger at
quarter as Kennedy, I'm going to hear to rush up.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
A feeling that tell me what w.
Speaker 4 (32:24):
Christer Jones get the crown one at.
Speaker 5 (32:28):
The third player to represent the Sea.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
Yak fronchise, He's steal the Bess.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Walton is still to Bess and the twelfth man.
Speaker 6 (32:35):
What a great push by that left side of the
Sea Yawks offensive line.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Oh, Walter Jones, big Walt, he could be even higher
on the list, Mina, but I wanted to hear you
talk about your Seahawks. I mean, you were very young
when Walter Jones was at his speaking yeah, for our
for our audio listeners.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
For instance.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
If you're young, you heard that clip, h It was
DeMarcus Ware asking tell me where Walter Jones is, so
that there's like game recognized game, A Hall of Fame player,
just absolutely fearful.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
And worried about what Walter Jones was gonna do.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
I think I was drafted when I was in maybe
fifth or sixth grade, so it wasn't that young. Well,
but then I would say he peaked for so long,
so it was, you know, he My point is that
I was in high school when he was great. I
was the beginning of college. He was still. I mean,
he hit something very rare. Although I guess while and Kelsey.
(33:32):
Interesting continuity here, one player, one team that great, you're
certainly more likely to stay on one team to where
to even begin. I was waiting for the block. It
doesn't have a cool nickname, but the two thousand and
five NFC Championship game.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Talk about it. Play it, we got it, but you
could talk over it, So tell us about.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
It a little bit.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
It's against the Panthers NFC Championship two thousand and five.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
I would contend, Yeah, there we go. Oh my god,
Mike Rucker rip. That man had a family one of
the single most dominant run blocks by left tackle in
the history of the sport right there, and he's taken him.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
For a ride and he said as much too. He
I saw an interview with him that he did. And
that's a play going to the weak side where yeah,
the defense man is on his outside shoulder, so he
has to get to the inside and block a two
hundred and ninety pounds man and he does it twenty
five yards down the field and it's part of one
(34:35):
of the best his feet. Sorry to no, please please
go on about what Big Waltz meant to you?
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Yeah, that play, so again, like if you what what
was so remarkable about this and maybe this is if
we're talking about Walter Jones and what made him great,
because he was really good at everything. He's a man
that size shouldn't have feet that moved that quick, and
you can really see that on that play. Like sometimes
you know, when a guy's like block, it's just like
he's it's just power and he's just nasty and he's
(35:05):
just kind of like a snowplow, you know, moving the
guy along. That's not what Walter Jones looked like. Like
his feet looked like a tight end or something out there.
It makes no sense. And that was his calling card, Greg.
It was he was so light on his feet and
so unbelievably athletic at his size. I think he ran
like a four six forty famously. I think he played
(35:27):
a little tight end in college or maybe the beginning
of college or something, so he had that background. But
it was just very rare and very unusual, and it
wasn't even I mean, he was an unbelievable past protector.
He just never seemed to get taken by surprise or
rattled again. A lot of that had to do with
the lightness of his feet, you know, I'm sure you
(35:50):
guys have some stats on this. He gave up so
few sacks and so little pressure over the course of
so many years, it was unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Yeah, so's it's fifty seven hundred plays in his career,
only twenty three sacks in that entire time, and nine
holding penalties in that entire time. Four first team All Pros,
two second teams. He is the only player that was
on the Hall of Fames and Pro Football References first
team for the All two thousands, So I thought that
(36:18):
was interesting. He's the only one from this era that
did make that NFL one hundred list, which which did
influence me. It was tough to pick him over Orlando Pace.
Part of it was the way that Jones's career worked out.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
You mentioned his longevity.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Pace was incredible at the start of his career, like
right off the jump in like ninety seven through ninety nine,
and Jones was still peeking late into his career. So
all those All pros that I mentioned are actually in
the two thousands. He actually made it all the way
Mina to the PFF era and so these are like
the last three years of his career, and he was
(36:55):
the highest rated tackle in pass protection in those three
years for PFF, and those are the final three years
of his career.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
That's his mid thirties. So I know, like, there's no
perfect way to mention here.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
To evaluate offensive line, especially twenty years later. But when
you have like the numbers like that, and then you
have all of the people that were around at the
same time saying it, I found like a handful of
players that were like, that's not just the best tackle,
that's the best football player alive right now, or that's
the best football player I've ever seen. And enough of
(37:30):
those I was just like, well, he has to be
on the list, and he could be higher if I wanted.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Who knows with offensive linemen.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Pace was the same draft, right he was.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
He was taken first and Jones yeah, went later.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
He was well no, But crazily enough, he was the Seahawks'
second pick in that draft because they took Sean Springs fourth. Yeah,
and then they traded up with the Bucks for Walter,
which was just insane and a little Seahawks lowreer. A
lot of that had to do with because that was
when all Alan took over the team. This was before
the rookie contract era. And Paul Allen was rich enough
(38:04):
to afford to for his around rookies. Like a weird
quirk of NFL history where he gave the green light
to do it, because that was what I think right
after the sale.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Or great, great call, because I was wondering, like I
was looking at his contracts and stuff. It's just like
those first round contracts at the time. They were like
seven years long, but they were they were huge for
the time.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
But you're absolutely right. They tried to trade up with
the Jets.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
They thought they had to deal with the Jets at
six in the end, the Jets said no, like when
they were on the clock. But Bill Parcell's got a
small assist apparently said hey, we were talking trade with
the Bucks. I don't think they're going to want to
sit there. You should call the Bucks. They call the
Bucks and they make history taking Walter Jones.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
The contracts too, are another funny part of Walter Jones's career.
Who was the torreous for just not showing up to
camp again. This is all that you learn a lot
about NFL contract and CBA history through just reading about
Walter Jones. But every year he would just hold out
and he would train on his own, pushing like SUVs
up them and then just show up seth Wickershiam did
(39:08):
a great story about a USP in the magazine like
twenty years ago. By the way, Uh anyways, he I
feel like Cortez Kennedy before him, maybe was the last
great Seahawks, but he really defined Seahawks football for an
extraordinarily long amount of time.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
I loved hearing some old clips I found at like
John Madden talking about him and to be as recognized
as he was in like a pre internet era essentially
as just that dude, you have to just be that good.
And I did want to give a shout out to,
you know, his line mate Steve Hutchinson, who wasn't always there,
(39:49):
but once they got him in the trade that is
almost unquestionably the best left side of an offensive line
in NFL history. I started covering the NFL for Roadal
World in three and I would say that Seahawks offensive
line not that people talk about all time great offensive lines,
but maybe they get forgotten a little bit to me,
because to me, they would be right near the top
(40:10):
with the Cowboys of the mid twenty tens of the
best offensive lines you know that I've you know, had
a privilege to cover and having Jones and Hutchinson next
to each other for a chunk of their primes is
pretty crazy.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
We've been punished for it with twenty years in battle
place since then.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
That's so true.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
So yeah, shout out to Steve Fudgets it did not
make the list, but had to get Jones on there.
Ravens fans, if you're curious, Jonathan Ogden, you know only
five years of his prime were in the two thousands,
so he like we missed a lot of the very
best of his career some other really great tackles over
the years. Lane Johnson did not make it for me.
(40:51):
Jason Peters did not make it for me. Tyron Smith,
who man, it's close at his very very best is
it's hard to like ar you against him. But we
can only have so many offensive linemen.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
We have a handful. We have a few more to go.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Let's go to our next guy and our last guy
will talk about with you.
Speaker 8 (41:08):
Mina number twenty one, Lamar Jackson, it's a second down
and free Jackson takes it himself.
Speaker 5 (41:21):
Look at him back and forth. Oh it broke his ankles.
Now he's gotten that turage. Damn, he's got a touchdown.
He is, who deny? Who want to play? Forty seven
yard touchdown run by the magical quarterback Lamar Jackson.
Speaker 7 (41:39):
Wow, he's like Kobe Bryant. How you can't necessarily stop
Kobe Bryan. Kobe Bryant's gonna get his at some point
And that was a great analogy. Lamar's gonna get his
at some point. And we know that, and everybody knows that.
Speaker 3 (41:51):
Everybody knows that buyers to the anz up touchdown on.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
That tun Now I mingle with Vet, but he was
Rema Eyes, so I'm right.
Speaker 4 (42:01):
I'll say, all right, then I had to be twenty.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
Lamar Jackson makes a list at twenty one, two MVPs
and a first team All Pro in the year twenty
twenty four, where he didn't win MVP but probably his
best season had led the yards per carry in terms
of the entire NFL four different time, third all time
if you're into quarterback rating, by the way, like if
you're just one of those old school people that like
(42:25):
quarterback rating and wins, I know wins are not a
quarterback stat mina, but he's third all time in like
winning percentage in quarterback fascorating Yeah, kdr, Yeah, it's funny, yes, passerating.
It's funny to me that like he dominates those like
old school traditional stats too, so there's no way to
come at him.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
The passerrating one is the one that blew my mind
this season because he came close to the Rogers passer
rating record, and passer rating, for those who don't know,
doesn't take into an account quarterback rushing, which is why
it's kind of a useless stat to be honest, because
quarterback rushing is such a big part of the modern
gamell QPR accounts for a point whatever we have to
(43:01):
get to it, but anyway, point is like the quarterback
who coming into this league. I don't want to overplay
the Bill Poleon thing, but it was questioned by everybody
whether or not he could be a pocket passer now
whether they just switch positions. Just came close to breaking
the Pesser rating record, Like I cannot stress enough. And
I was as much of a Lamar Jackson fan as
(43:24):
anyone in that draft Dominice, and I wrote long article
about him like staking our you know, planting our flag.
I did not think he would be this good. It
is unbelievable what he has accomplished and he's only twenty eight.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Yeah, there's no way to say about really any prospect
coming in that year. He is going to be an
inner circle all time great and that's what he is.
And that's what I had to think about with this exercise,
Like I was like, has he played long enough in
the NFL?
Speaker 3 (43:56):
It's been seven years?
Speaker 1 (43:57):
Has he done enough to get on this list over
some really great quarterbacks? Because I didn't want to make
this just like an all quarterbacks list. Initially I had
him on like a little higher than I had him
completely off. And I settled here and just decided, like,
especially of this generation. You know Mahomes is coming up
spoiler alert, but of this generation, he literally was the
(44:18):
best player in the league either three times or if
you want to split it, this last year, like two
and a half times. And he's the best running quarterback
ever that like goes without saying not just that he
had the best season of all time in terms of
rushing yards, but leading all the NFL including the running
backs and yards per carry four times, Like to me,
is so crazy, But what you realize pretty quickly, and
(44:39):
I think about that week one game actually in his
first full season starting, it was twenty eighteen, right or
twenty nineteen, sorry, against Miami, and that game where he
is just throwing bombs down the field and he is
so good throwing over the middle of the field, and
that is the game where you kind of realize, oh,
his legs are going to set up so much with
this passing and he is such a good passer. And
(45:01):
that season, you know, his first full season as a starter,
he wins the MVP.
Speaker 4 (45:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
I think he's also a guy where the stats, as
unbelievably impressive as they are, and you know, we just
discussed all of them, still don't capture what he does
to defenses and what he does on a football field
and the way he I would say, more than any
other player I've watched, Clee Michael Vick. He has more
(45:29):
gravity as a dual threat, and I love watching the
Ravens on tape for this reason. I love the way
he pulls defenses on a string still and the opportunities
that creates for the run game and other players is
just unparalleled. He is also just the most electric like
(45:52):
dynamic runner, you know, I mean just his style, the
fact that he never appears to be moving at full speed.
Is crazy. And then, oh, by the way, he also has,
by the way, become the most accurate passer in the NFL,
because you know, I was always a believer in his
passing ability and his football IQ and whatnot, but he
was not the passor he is now earlier in his career.
(46:12):
And that's another thing I really have loved about watching
him and about his game. And this is the same
would apply to Josh Allen. He's gotten so much better, Greg,
and he's twenty eight, twenty eight. I mean he's both
him and Allen, by the way, not only have gotten better,
but mentally, I would put up there with anyone in
the league right now.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Right because when you think about that twenty eighteen season
or twenty nineteen season, twenty eighteen, by the way, sort
of underrated when he came in and immediately started winning
games for them and was like an immediate sensation and
helps get them to the playoffs and belonged right away.
But he definitely needed to develop, and he did that
offseason in terms of his passing, You're right that twenty
nineteen season, his running was absolutely setting up his passing
(46:51):
and his passing was better than everyone realized. Hey led
the league in passing touchdowns and QBR ESPNSQBR that year.
But now the way he can manipulate defendant defenders, how
he can anticipate, how he can throw over to the
middle of the field. You have that part of it,
and it's kind of like everyone who ever watched a
running quarterback growing up, whether it was Randall Cunningham or
(47:12):
Steve Young or even Dante Culpepper and just thought, like,
that's so cool. Like if one guy could put it
all together, like at the highest level, wouldn't that be
the coolest football ever? And that is Lamar Jackson. He's
done it. He is that guy.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
So you are taking into account playoff accomplishments putting this
list together. How much are you dinging him for the
fact that he's never been to a Super Bowl? So
he's never won a conference championship game? I imagine you know none,
I mean like Mahome. You said Mahomes is on the list,
(47:49):
so it's not like there's anyone else in this regard.
Speaker 6 (47:51):
But but.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
You know, does that do you think there are people screaming,
how can you put a guy this high? I'm just
playing Devil's advocate here. Do you think that there are
people at home saying, like, well, he's never even won
a conference championship game, how can you put him this
high on a top twenty high list.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
I just think the best way to evaluate a quarterback
is over the course of a regular season, and he's
done that so many times that it tells me that
he will have that playoff success at some point and
that I'm not that worried about it, like we I
saw it with Peyton Manning, who is one of the
greatest individual success stories of all time, and it took
(48:30):
a while for him to actually get it done in
the playoffs, and it didn't change really who who I
think about him and think of all the times just
because of the order it happened that, like Aaron Rodgers
knocked on the door and didn't make it, you know,
or Drew Brees after winning that Super Bowl the one time,
like it took that long. So I don't want to
have to wait till he's thirty one or thirty two
(48:51):
to recognize Plus he's like he just he makes your
jaw drop.
Speaker 3 (48:55):
Let's actually look at one of my favorite Lamar Jackson place.
Speaker 5 (48:58):
Justice Hill who's the best likely emotion, He buckles of
my God, performs groups of them, doctrooms at home, pretends
Hubbard how from a look a word and.
Speaker 4 (49:11):
Cots on touchdown, cots on touchdown then likely.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
Absolutely amazing.
Speaker 5 (49:21):
How in the world did he keep it together and
let him find the open receiver.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
I could just do an entire show on Kevin Harlan
calls of Lamar Jackson touchdowns. I've almost regretted not having
Harlot on this episode just so I can hear him
react to that. But we'll have them on some calls.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
I love it. Next, not to really nerd out, but
next gen jet stats does the you know, completion percentage,
likelihood of throws and whether or not a quarterbacks he
seeded those he's got to have the most like just
preposterously low odds of completing passes, touchdowns, deep passes, and
just pulling the rabbit out of his hat. Of any quarterback,
I mean, Mahomes, I guess would.
Speaker 3 (50:01):
Be above him.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Yes, I don't know, though, I mean they're close. They
both have, you know, all the best quarterbacks in the
league right now, by the way, can lay us to that.
But Lamar, it feels like he has to lead in
this guy moments like that.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
That's worth something like we're talking about best, we're talking
about greatest to me, this freaking guy, this guy he
came to and Josh Allen. It took a little slightly
later developing obviously came out a little later.
Speaker 3 (50:38):
Like he ushered in this new generation.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
It was we were a while between like great truly
like all time quarterbacks. It was really like Andrew Luck
was this one guy in the middle of this desert
that we thought was gonna get there and then obviously
retired early.
Speaker 3 (50:55):
But it was.
Speaker 1 (50:55):
Between these guys and we thought maybe that like the
next great quarterback would would look like this, and he does.
And I think his arm gets underrated. I mean you
mentioned like the crazy plays. One play I watched, like
watching this was a sixty two yard in the air
like air yards opposite hash throw where.
Speaker 3 (51:13):
Like he's at the eight and he hits.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
I think it was the Sean Jackson of all people
in stride. Like he does have a hose, which you
kind of forget about with everything else.
Speaker 2 (51:23):
Yeah, he is a really strong arm and he has
a really unique arm talent. The game where him and
Matthew Stafford just went toe to toe, not this year,
but the previous year where they were just launching nukes
all over the place. It was one of my favorit
football games the last few years. I remember watching that
and being like, these guys have a lot of common
because they both not only have strong arms, and they're
not only preposterous and have like arm arrogance, but they
(51:47):
also are doing like side army, Like Lamar side arms
it a lot. He's throwing off of like crazy platforms.
He's doing really really special things just with his arm.
I just had I just interviewed Darius lagh and now
these in the AFC North. I asked him, are you
more wary of playing Joe Burrow's Bengals or Lamar Jackson's Ravens.
(52:10):
I thought he would say the Bengals because of Jamar
Chasen t Higgins, right, but he was like, no, Lamar.
And it wasn't a knock on Burrow, but he just said,
there's just nothing more frustrating than having to defend defend
two plays in one so often against the quarterback. And
that's just what makes him special. It's like he gets
an extra play like it's crazy. I mean, what he's
(52:31):
able to do.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
For the first handful of years, and it was kind
of back last year too. I thought the most unstoppable
play in the league was when you know, they did
you know, a play action or RPO and he pulls
the ball and he just takes eight yards to the side,
Like for four years the defense was essentially giving him
seven to eight yards just running to the sidelines. There
(52:53):
are so many runs throughout his career where he never
hits the ground. It's just him going out of bounds,
him just like gliding out a bound.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
Crazy. Yeah, the ability to avoid contact is I mean,
knock I would is just the most unique runner that
I don't know. It's crazy watching him run. It just
makes no sense.
Speaker 3 (53:17):
You're the best guest ever.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
Because you even brought up like people yelling at me
about the playoffs. That's I would have just like completely
ignored it, which I which.
Speaker 3 (53:24):
I know I shouldn't. I shouldn't because it was it take.
Speaker 2 (53:27):
I'm certainly used to the playoffs.
Speaker 3 (53:30):
It's a great point.
Speaker 1 (53:32):
I think that the first couple of years he played
tight and he was a young player then, but that's
also like Mahomes came in and played his very best
like immediately in the playoffs. The last couple of years,
he's had great games in the playoffs, whether it's the
divisional round or last year in the championship game, like
doing everything he could, needing the drive and making it
(53:53):
happen and playing well. So that that also really the
last two years especially, and there were there's a couple
of year gap there. They weren't in the playoffs and
he didn't play twenty one and twenty two. So the
last couple of years also as part of the reason
why I feel like he's he's over that hurdle, and
I think he has played well in the playoffs. But yes,
this is more for the regular season. Sorry to the
(54:14):
Josh Allen fans out there, their guy is not going
to be on this list. I mean, I think that's fair, right,
It's fine.
Speaker 2 (54:21):
Yeah, then.
Speaker 3 (54:23):
Said you have such a bad spot.
Speaker 2 (54:25):
You I know, I don't want to make a comment
on this. I think that after Lamar, well, I don't
know which how many.
Speaker 1 (54:33):
Quarterbacks, there's five more. There's five more quarterbacks. And that's
the thing, like I was thinking about Lamar, let's say
versus a Drew Brees. Drew Brees is going to be
on this list, of course. Yeah, and when I think
about lamar At is very very peak and what he's
already accomplished, you could argue, I think that's as high
or higher even than a great player like Drew Brees.
Speaker 3 (54:52):
So the highs are there. I had to not put
my our guy, Philip Rivers on.
Speaker 1 (54:56):
I thought about doing it just to help his Hall
of Fame case, but I don't think I have that
kind of way that it would really matter. Brett Favre
was an interesting one, by the way, because he won
his three MVPs in the in the nineties and then
you realize, like in the two thousands he made like
two first team All Pros and four second teams, Like
he was an incredible player in that decade, even though
(55:16):
like he was even better the one before.
Speaker 3 (55:17):
Like you know, you got your guy Russ.
Speaker 1 (55:19):
There's a lot of great quarterbacks that could have made
this list, Matt Ryan, like, but you can't make it
an all quarterbacks list. But I did want one of
these these current guys, at least at the back end.
Speaker 2 (55:27):
Yeah, I think you chose the right one. Non Mahome's division.
Speaker 1 (55:31):
We're biased though, I mean you wrote the article back
in the day. Check out Mina Chimes. Thank you so much, Mina.
Of course, it's the Mina Chimes Show featuring Lenny and
then the Big Time New Podcast If you were a discretion.
I like that she's tackling pop culture with her friend
(55:51):
David w Pod.
Speaker 2 (55:53):
Check it out if you Right now, we're doing Love Island,
so not everybody's watching Love Island, but subscribe. Keep your
eye on the space even if you aren't. We're going
to do more shows. We're going to do Love is
Blind again, of course, and we also take recommendations love it.
Speaker 3 (56:06):
Yeah. Yeah, I don't need to tell everyone to check
out Mina.
Speaker 1 (56:10):
Our next episode will be the second edition of NFL
Daily's twenty five Players of the last twenty five years.
We will be joined by NFL Networks National reporter Steve Weisch.
Speaker 3 (56:22):
Looking forward to that one.
Welcome to NFL Daily's Top twenty five players of the
last twenty five years. Yes, this is the first episode.
It's going to be a six part series. I'm really
excited about And there is no one I would rather
start the series with than my friend Mina Kimes of ESPN.
(00:23):
This is a big responsibility, Mina taking the first episode.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hello, I'm excited to do this. The players that are
in this bunch are great. This is a great group.
I mean, they're all great, that's the general premise of
this entire thing, but they're really fun players to talk about.
So I'm particularly excited to be twenty five through twenty one.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Yeah, a couple things I noticed putting the list together
that it's backloaded, like the current players are more towards
the back. Don't blame Mina or any of the future
guests that are coming on the show. It is my list,
but that they're coming on to give their impressions. And
we have a lot of great guests. Kevin Harlan is
going to be on the show coming up, your buddy,
Nate Tice, Brian Baldinger, Steve Weis. It's going to be
really great. Just a couple of little ground rules. Though,
(01:06):
for the listeners out there, if they're curious, it was
more about sustained greatness over like a three to five
year period. Was like where I started, like, you're not
going to be on this list if you only had
one or two great years. That's almost a prerequisite. But
it wasn't about longevity to me. It was like who
was the very best and maybe longevity is a little
(01:27):
bit of a tiebreaker.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Do you think that's like a fair way to do it? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:32):
I do.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
I mean we're talking about especially when you're talking about
top twenty five, it's tough, man. Yeah, you're gonna have
to make some really difficult cuts and you're gonna have
to set guidelines. I think around like, it's kind of
like when we do general debates that we're like who's
the greatest of all time? You have to take longevity
into account. You can't just be like a guy at
(01:53):
his peak. I actually think the player you're starting with
is a great He really is. He really is perfect
fodder for this exact question is exact debate because there's
another player who he's constantly compared to, who I think
is probably also on your list, and you're by starting
with this player, you're making drawing a line in the sand,
really and you're kind of it's a take.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Honestly, it absolutely is, which means we should just get
to it. But yes, he's on one side of the equation.
You're absolutely right, you're gonna find out. And a second
on the other side, for instance, is maybe a guy
like no Imdasamawa or something. And not that he was
close to making this list at all, but for a
three to four year period he was one of the
coldest cornerbacks of the last twenty five years. Like, obviously
(02:36):
he's not gonna make it because that's too short of
an absolute peak. But this list is full of guys
who had crazy high peaks.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Larry Fitzgerald is not on this list, for instance.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
I don't want to spoil too much, but he's a
guy when you look at it, not that he was
a compiler, but a one first time All Pro or
first team All Pro, like two second teams, his highs
weren't quite as high.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Let's just get the little list. Let's go to number
twenty five.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Number twenty five, Travis Kelcey Maholmes gets the shotgun snap
pulps throws for the end.
Speaker 5 (03:08):
Zone to Kelsey Asting makes the catch touchdown.
Speaker 4 (03:13):
Travis Kelcey put a touchdown in.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
The back right corner of the in zone.
Speaker 5 (03:19):
Kansas City wins it forty two thirty six and over time.
Speaker 6 (03:26):
Patrick Mahomes back does get up the road middle Travis Kelcey,
this dude's taking over and been dominant in the playoffs.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
When Mahomes throws doing they have a.
Speaker 5 (03:34):
One forty quarterback writing, I mean, this is Montane wife territory.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
I don't care what people call us.
Speaker 5 (03:38):
I know I'm back to back and I won three
in whatever year.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Y'all can call us the dynasty.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
You can call us whatever you guys want.
Speaker 5 (03:44):
I know we got it.
Speaker 7 (03:45):
Something more special than really what you've seen in the
NFL is because the guys in his locker room, in
the headcoach.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
It has been a wild dirty we have been on
with Travis Kelcey.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
I remember when he slips in the draft because of
tests and stuff and underrated and comes out. He was
older when he came out, twenty four years old. He
didn't have his first thousand yard season un till he
was twenty seven years old. And yet he is one
of the most famous certainly and one of the defining players.
I mean, you started this whole thing already saying I'm
making a take. What do you think that take is
(04:21):
putting him at twenty five?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Well, I guess that take depends I'm making an assumption,
which is that Rob Gronkowski comes later.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Yeah, you're in this list.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Okay, So that's the take, right, Because this is the debate,
and it's a debate, the debate between Gronkowski and Kelsey,
and I think is a really good debate, and I
think it's not one that's like there's an obviously glaring
right answer. I think you can argue either side. It's
about longevity, it's about dominance, it's about peaks, it's about
postseason accomplishments. It's also about the nature of this particular position.
(04:51):
I think that's the most important thing. Is when you're
talking about who is better, who was greater, who was
more dominant, you were also talking about, well, what are
we expecting out of the tight end position?
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Aolute And yeah, his blocking obviously is not nearly what
Rob Gronkowski's is. But I don't want I don't want
to be comparing those two the whole time, because at
first he wasn't even on my list, and then I
started thinking about, yeah he was well because I'm thinking
about absolute dominance.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Who are the best?
Speaker 1 (05:15):
But it's crazy the Hall of famers that are not
making this list. I mean there are there are a
lot of them. This is a it's a tough list.
But for first team All pros three seconds. He's on
the All two thousand and tens team for the Hall
of Fame that they put out. He has the numbers
like most yards, most playoff touchdowns now, like third in
receiving yards among tight ends. So the numbers are all
(05:37):
there in terms of counting stats, and I just think
his peak wasn't like as high as some of the
guys higher on this list. But it is ridiculous, meana,
how many defining moments he's had. And it's because he's
been in the playoffs so long, but it's because he
finished those games that catch you.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Heard to start.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
It was the Divisional round, maybe the best game of
this decade that he finishes in the overtime against Buffalo.
He's had like so many walkoffs, including against the Chargers.
We might hurt hear that one a little later, like
him beating Kyle Hamilton in the AFC Championship just a
couple of years ago. The walk, Like, he's had so
many absolute big moments and he's just been incredibly consistent, and.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
He had to make this list.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
I talked to our friend Nick right because I was
thinking about Tony Gonzalez because his all pros and his
numbers are just outrageous. But I think at his peak,
Kelsey was ultimately better, and obviously he deserves to be here.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah, a lot of thoughts on Traus Kelsey. First of all,
I think because of the comparison to Gronk and because
of who he is a disappointing career his career, we
forget he was an okay blocker. He wasn't like he
was never as dominant as Gronk, and that is a
huge part of the argument for Gronk if one wants
to make that argument, but he wasn't bad, I just
(06:51):
I want to throw that out there. He still isn't
actually that bad. He just gets used differently, And a
lot of the way he gets used has to do
with the fact that he has not been surrounded by
world beaters outside of Tyreek Hill. I think that also
bears mentioning this offense has been run through, has run
through Travis Kelcey at so many points in so many
(07:13):
big games, and certainly since Tyreek Hill left since then,
and that's not something you see very often. A lot
of his usage is because of that. It's born out
of necessity. I would also argue, and this is something
I would say is a little bit is if you
weren't to make a case for him over Gronk, he
(07:34):
to me, Greg is the single best zone coverage beater
maybe of our lifetime. Maybe that's a little bit too rich.
We think about some of the receivers, but certainly amongst tight.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Ends, no question amongst tight ends. And you're right, I
would have to think about that list. And that's why
he was a tough one for me of where to
put him, Like is he high enough? He's one of
only two tight ends on this list. I don't mind
spoiling like that is his trademark. And you saying how
his usage went up, like his best season was twenty twenty,
(08:07):
that that cursed season with no crowds or anything, that
he was just going crazy. He actually got a few
Offensive Player of the Year votes that that was one metric,
Like was he ever at the super top where he's
winning those sorts of awards, not so much, but that year,
you know, fourteen hundred yards, like over one hundred catches
and just totally dominant. And to me, he's had a
(08:27):
better career than Antonio Gates.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
He's the key player other.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Than Patrick Mahomes in you know, the best dynasty that
we've seen other than the Patriots dynasty, not just the
last twenty five years, but one of them in the
history of the NFL. And the thing that's crazy that
you pointed out, Mina is he's actually gotten better as
he's lost juice. One of the fun things I've gotten
to do with this exercise. I just go back watch
some old tape or watch some old highlights, and you know,
he's ripping off eighty yard screen passes in twenty seventeen,
(08:54):
twenty eighteen. You're like, oh, yeah, Travis Kelcey used to
have so much juice. And yet because he has a
ridiculous mind meld, maybe the best since Montana to Jerry Rice,
as Mahomes to Kelsey, he's actually gotten better as he's
gotten older.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I do like that, Like, you can't really punish eitherism
for the quarterback because they both played with like the
two greatest quarterbacks, right, So yeah, it's not like, well,
Travis Kelsey got to play with Patrick Mahobes. I swear
to God, I'm not gonna only talk about Trales Kelsey
do the lens of Ropper Gronkowski, but Gronk got to
play with But I think right now he is in
that phase, the one last job phase of his career
where all they need is for him to be big
in huge moments in certain games, the same way that
(09:31):
Gronk was in the infamous RAM super Bowl victory on
that one last drive. Yeah, I think with Kelsey, like,
I absolutely think he belongs on Listless. Yes, let's start there,
because it's just like the TI, he really marries all
of it, longevity, peaks, playoff, accomplishments, big.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Games, random reality shows.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
That's the other thing is like watching those clip like
because he's played for so long at this point and
as his persona has evolved so much, it's kind of
like his girlfriend's eras, like we do have Travis Kelce's. Yeah,
that's that, by the way, is all I know about Ty.
I've reached the limits of the slip jokes. That I
can make, but like, there have been points in his
(10:19):
career where he's been used in different plays where he's
where he's played different roles in that offense, where he
has sounded different he talks, and it's like he to me, like,
you really can't tell the story of the NFL over
the last ten years without him. Yeah, I just spectacular
football player.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
That It was part of my reasoning. Not only that
he was on a lot of these guys were going
to be on. Who were the most painful to leave off?
When I had him off first, I was like, oh,
that's too painful and Chiefs fans are going to want
to hear this, But there were there were a lot
of like Chiefs that were right. I thought about Chris Jones,
I thought about Tony Gonzalez.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
They were among the first.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
People to be left offices that I was like, it
would be too painful to leave Kelsey, who, yes, not
only entertain millions, including the namesake of the studio, Chris
Westling and Lakeisha Westling were hardcore fans of Catching Kelsey
at the time, the only two people I know that
were watching every single episode. But yes, like authored so
(11:17):
many moments that I can remember, let's actually look back
because one thing I found looking through like his greatest
plays in his greatest games, so many of them came
against the Chargers. It's just outrageous that I just want
to play one of them.
Speaker 6 (11:29):
Get all number three on the all time Chiefs touchdown
catch list. Would one to night now just one catch
shay otis Taylor. Here is Kelsey, still going, still going, Kelsey,
good night, touchdown Chiefs.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Winning the thing I remembered more, not that I should have,
but he has so many good after the catch plays
where he just puts that foot in the dirt and
gets everyone to go one way, and you don't think
of him like that.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
And half of them are against the Chargers.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I mean, he has two game winning touchdowns against the Chargers.
He has one hundred and ninety yard game against the Chargers.
I believe that that was part of that, Like he
so many of them was just like breaking the rest
of the AFC's hearts, especially the Charger.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
It's funny because I feel like Derwin James on the
Chargers has been thought of as one of the dudes
you can count on to try to handle Travis Kelsey.
I think that's the other thing that's so unique about him.
Whenever we've talked about the Chiefs over the last few
years is certainly when during the Tyree Kill era, it
was a lot about how you handle that level of
speed and it was game tilting. But I know as
an analyst, every time I've talked about this team and
(12:33):
playing them and the defenses, it always starts with, Okay,
who's on Kelsey? What is your game plan? What is
your approach to him? Are you comfortable playing zone coverage?
The question you ask always about the Chiefs, right like
do you have the capability to man up this team?
And if you do, who's on Kelsey? Like I just
I think that's a when I think about like great
(12:54):
players and whether or not they qualify for a list
like this. From my not to be solipsistic perspective, I
think through, Okay, when I'm thinking about this team and
their games, this is the first person I think of,
how do you stop them? And he could make that
same argument for Chris Jones, by the way, who I
do think was probably a tough cut.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
It was he was an extremely tough cut, And like
I said, there's a lot of Hall of Famers not
on this list, So It's tough to make those cuts,
but I'm glad Kelsey is on. I'm also glad I
have our next guy.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
Number twenty four, Terrell Owens.
Speaker 5 (13:25):
Terrel Owens down the sideline, getting the first down and
continuing richeld move backing sow Owens Loo's a big run
all the.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
Way under the XIL for the forty nine touchdown.
Speaker 5 (13:36):
Another seventy five yard play, this time terror Owards.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
Doing it after the catch, throw it and doing see
you off the play.
Speaker 5 (13:46):
Rolling right the touchdown, ter Olands.
Speaker 6 (13:51):
Theren's are going right to the center of the stadium.
Speaker 8 (13:56):
Rug to the Dallas Cowboys all going yah, see it
touchdowns again.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
Heading from midfield there he goes.
Speaker 6 (14:05):
He's there's gonna be a penalty on George t because
he's gonna clock them, so ow it's just gonna show
him up again.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
And Tik just said, the heck with it. This game's
over anyway. I'm just gonna take a cheap shot at him.
We are wrapping.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yeah, that little celebration ofterrell Owens with him sleeping on
the football. He could make this list just off the celebrations.
You kind of forget how many of them were so iconic. Uh,
you got the popcorn eating the popcorn. You have the
Sharpie signing the ball, you have the Seahawks, you have
the pomp Poms grabbing and doing the pomp Pom dance.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
You have him, of course doing.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Holding his arms up to the sky at the old
Texas Stadium. It's it's just amazing and five first team
All pros kind of what you imagine Mina when you
think of at least back in the day, there's not
as many of these guys of like, what would you
want your number one to look like? Six three, two
hundred and twenty five pounds and just fast as hell.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
I went down a rabbit hole watching too highlights when
I saw he was on your list, And one of
the highlights was just every catch he made against the
Chicago Bears in the record breaking game that I think
was Brandon Brushall Brooke that if I remember, yeah catches, yeah,
and it's it's a great mix of just you know,
slants and hitches, but then also some couple deep balls
(15:27):
as well, and you really get a full sense of
like his unbelievable skill set, which really was. I mean,
he was good a lot of things, but at that size,
the speed the breakaway speed. First of all, he was
really physical, really strong, good contested catch guy. Some of
his most famous catches are like that. But then like
(15:47):
the breakaway speed and movement abilities he had at his
size were so rare, it's like you're like you put it.
I mean there's another. I'm sure Calvia Johnson's going to
come later, but but it does feel like he was
like built in a lob to be a true X.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah, a little different, like better after the catch even
than Calvin Johnson, and but still had like the mobility.
And I know he had some drops certainly along the
way and wasn't like as great a separator, say as
Antonio Brown, who was a tough cut from this list
ultimately because I just just on the field watching him.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
He was among the very best I ever saw.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
But he's a guy who, till the end of his
career was just a big play machine. He averaged fourteen
point eight yards per catch for his whole career that
like never fell off. He's third all time in receiving yards.
He was on the All Decade team. He was timed
very well for this list his breakout season, and that
was part of it. I did not consider any nineteen
(16:46):
nineties seasons. So even if you started in the nineties,
like a Randy Moss for instance, that wasn't part of
the equation. And his breakout season to was two thousand
and five first team All Pros And man, he didn't
have like a ton of playoff moments. He had he
had to catch too, certainly with the forty nine ers
(17:07):
when he was young in his career. But you remember
that performance he had against the Eagles where Belichick has
said many times how he assumed to is not going
to be in that game or not gonna look like
to because he's coming off of a broken leg, and
he goes nine for one twenty two and almost kind
of carries them to a Super Bowl win all by
himself while he was a member of the Eagles.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
The was the finger game before that was after that,
right when he had the plate in his finger and
he came back and played. And that's the other thing
we got to talk about with him. Yeah, this is
the unbelievable toughness, which and it's the other thing about him,
like just like the perfect I talk about him being
like the perfect wide receiver, lab built ride receiver. The
personality is like when people think about wide receivers better
(17:49):
or worse, and I say better for better or worse
because you know, was he always the best teammate? No,
did he rebul the wrong way? Sure, but holy smokes,
his dude was tough and was a competitor. I mean,
like some of the injuries that he overcame to play,
I feel like, maybe more so than he has some
(18:10):
of the most iconic coming off in injury games of
any player in NFL history. And it is funny to
me that like he contained multitudes in that way, right,
Like we think of this like diva personality, but then
he was tough as nails. I don't know, he was
just kind of an interesting mix of contradictions.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Yes, let's let's listen just to a little cut up
we have of some t o trashtock.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
I know you don't know me to sound put them
a sound in a way because I love me.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Tell me I.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Can hit me.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Oh, y'all won't do what you can stuff.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
He is an all time NFL Films sound effects guy,
like an all time NFL miked up guy. There's a
clip on YouTube from NFL Films with just thirteen minutes
of him on miked up and it's so good. And
one thing you do get from it is you're reminded,
like he was a team captain more than a few
times in his career, he was known as like one
(19:07):
of the if not the hardest workers on his team.
He learned literally from Jerry Rice, and he talks about that,
not only about how to work, but how to look
good on the field. He talks about that a lot,
and you just kind of think about him running over
all these guys and running past him, and it's just like,
that's what you want on your team. And yes, it
ended up sour at the end in a few places,
(19:29):
you know, in Dallas and San Francisco, like when it
went bad, it went bad. But the vast majority of
those years, especially the first couple of years in each spot,
even into Cincinnati at the end of his career, when
he's with Ocho Sinkle, he's still putting up a thousand
yards like he gave you everything he had. And so
that was why I didn't want to knock him too
badly for all that.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Well speaking, I mean, I mean, I have to bet
we run an NFL podcast, but I coverring this up.
He's not in the NFL one hundred. Did you know that?
I did not know that he was not, So then
I fell did the one hundred greatest Players of all time?
I think they did it a few years ago, five
years ago, and uh uh, let's see why. Let me
find the headline. He called it despicable and he was
(20:11):
left off, and like, I'm on his side. I mean,
come on, dude, he's third old time and receiving yards,
touchdown catches top ten and it's not just a long
He's not just a compiler, dominant seasons, one hundred yard games.
It's insane that he wasn't on that list. I'm just
gonna say, it's crazy.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Receivers the toughest position.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
So I think making this list okay when you're just
thinking about the last twenty five years in no particular order.
Julio Jones like is he like his peak was just
absolutely outrageous. Antonio Brown, he used to get into an
argument that at his very peak, I don't know if
anyone was any better. These are guys that are not
(20:55):
on the list. Larry Fitzgerald, like I mentioned, who's just
stacked up numbers like not on the list.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
It was very hard to separate wide receivers.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
But ultimately, yeah, the combination for me of just he
was a little bit uncoverable because even though he had
those drops at times, he was such a good contested
catch guy that like, even if you could cover my
Revis had some good battles with him later in his career,
even if you could cover him, like it didn't really
matter if he was playing his best.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
The Catch Tube being the perfect example of that. I
remember growing up when I first got access to like YouTube,
just watching that over and over and trying to like
understand it. It haven't right because it just doesn't just
like what wait the ball, Like how is this getting through?
And how is he winning for it? And yeah, it
(21:43):
was just yeah, remarkable. I was asking just one quick aside.
I was while I was watching Highlights, I was texting
a little bit with you. Mentioned Nate Tice and Danny
about who is the closest to him in this current generation,
and the consensus was AJ Brown is the player who's
most similar to t O, which I think is accurate.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
I think that's right, especially this version of AJ Brown,
like where he is right now, where we just did
a Receivers episode and we had him third overall because
I think he's such a complete receiver. I think Too
also warmed up to that spot too, as you mentioned,
like the catch Too, that was his big breakout in
San Francisco. Like, it's funny hearing them talk about him
early in his career, like he didn't speak, he was
(22:28):
very afraid to talk to the media. It was like
this shy guy until he wasn't. But yeah, Marvin Harrison
was another guy. Tyreek Kill was another guy that got
cut off this list. Marvin Harrison somewhat got cut off
from the ninety two thousand thing. But it's crazy how
hard it was to make it. So it just shows
you what kind of career Too had. Let's take a
quick break and we will be back with the next
(22:49):
guy on the list. Back on NFL Daily Best twenty
five players of the last twenty five years. And yeah,
(23:10):
as we go through some of these players, I will
be mentioning who didn't get off the list.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
I almost feel bad not saying it.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
It's like Justin Jefferson and Jamar Chase, they are building
up that resume, but they're getting cut off basically because
they haven't been in the NFL long enough.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Unlike our next.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
Guy, Number twenty three, TJ WAT.
Speaker 6 (23:27):
Sixty yards of offense for the Falcons since halftime Man.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
Cousins is sacked.
Speaker 6 (23:32):
Guess who TJ WAT put in an exclamation on this one.
Speaker 5 (23:38):
Big rush Hey kJ On has that suck.
Speaker 4 (23:42):
Unbelievable. TJ W comes around and.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Makes a sack.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Favorite pass rushler to watch. I mean, I have to say, TJ.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
What shoe string sick?
Speaker 3 (23:56):
From the master himself.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
TJ continues to run rough shot woop, Newton gets hit,
ball is out. That's it in trouble periods.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
TJ rock.
Speaker 6 (24:18):
He is now the Steelers franchise all time leader in
that category.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
The single most surprising player to make this list for
me in terms of I did not expect to be
putting him on when I started the list. He was
not even that close until I really started thinking about
the resume. Defensive Player of the Year Top four in
the voting four straight years, the last four years, four
all pros. The most sacks since he's entered the league,
(24:44):
the most forced fumbles by far since he's entered the league,
the most tackles for loss since he's entered the league,
the most sacks in his first eight seasons. Other than
Reggie White and DeMarcus where single season sack record led
the league in sacks three times, and I just thought about, like,
what are we talking about here? I'm talking about players
at the very top of their game. Even though I
feel a little lower than consensus on TJ. Watt in general,
(25:08):
I realize, like, not only is he a first ballot
Hall of Famer, but he deserves to make this list.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yeah, it kind of sneaks up on you how dominant
the numbers are. And we know, oh well, whenever we
do like we're the best three pass rushers in the NFL,
it's always TG Watt, Mouse Garrett and Blank Michael Parsons
right now, right, But I think you don't think of
him as like historically dominant until you look at what
you just described, the idea of that he has led
the NFL three times in sacks, twice enforced fumbles, that
(25:36):
he's reached such insane sack totals. It's kind of one
those things where you really have to take a step
back and realize how incredibly dominant he's been, which is
I think I'll throw something out. Do you feel like
maybe not he's that he's overlooked, But it seems so unbelievable.
(26:00):
JJ Watt could have a brother just right, like the
JJ Watt who his peaks were so high that his
brother came in and you were and you were like, uh,
you know, it's JJ Wat's brother. That he became what
he came seems so unlikely. Greg, maybe that plays into
(26:20):
it a little bit.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
I think so. I mean, you know, who agrees with
you the entire NFL?
Speaker 1 (26:24):
How did this guy go thirtieth in the draft, Because
for so many years all anyone said about JJ Watt was.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Like, how did he fall so far in the draft?
Speaker 1 (26:34):
I know he was like he's a you know, walk
on and he had a different sort of career. He's
like a late bloomer at Wisconsin. But it's like he's
two ninety five and the biggest, freakiest athlete with like
the best motor you've ever seen, and then had you know,
a first ballot Hall of Fame season. Obviously he is
going to be on this list coming up. And then
the exact same thing happened mean with d J Watt.
Just knowing like what happened with JJ and somehow that
(26:56):
it's like in them they we used the phrase like
they're built different. Like, so Watts apparently really are built different.
How did TJ. Watt get to thirtieth and then be
this big of a seal for the Steelers of all teams?
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yeah, I mean I guess, you know, genetics and also
just work ethic and technique. I mean, that's the thing
about TJ. Watt similar to JJ. But to focus on
TJ for a second, just such a complete player. I
think that's if you know, if I had to summarize
him in one word, it would be complete. He's so
(27:29):
good at everything. He's so good. Obviously, he is very
technically refined and fun to watch pass rusher, and that
is something he kind of has only gotten better at
over time as he's you know, added more to his repertoire.
He wins with speed, he wins with power. He wins
with speed to power. He's got great inside moves, like
(27:50):
he's just really really really smart. He's seen it all
and then he finishes, which is how you get the
high sack totals. But he's also a fantastic run defender
that matters if we're talking about like who are the
greatest of their generation. He's good in coverage, he's a
good moments coverage, he's read the quarterback, and he's just
he's just really really complete Greg. And I think when
(28:13):
you if you were able to hit that level, some
of it is nurture. Not to say that j Watt
and TG Wat's mom is over this, but like, clearly
these guys love ball and love studying ball, and that
has factored in.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
They've got that dog at him and they're always you're
always looking for intangibles, and it's tough to really evaluate that.
But I really do think like the fact that he
was jj Watt's brothers should have gotten him drafted higher
because because there is clearly something about how you can
improve at the NFL level that that they haven't helped
to master.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
And yeah, it is. It is the big plays.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
It is the knack over and over and over to
have game winning plays like it. Once it happens like
a few times, you're almost like, is this a little
fluky that he's getting all these force fumble Like, like
I said, he leads the NFL and forced fumbles, Uh,
since he entered the league. Is it a little fluky
that like his best plays keep coming at the end
(29:08):
of these games. It's like at a certain point you
have to just accept like, no, that that is not fluky,
just just you know, thinking a few He had a
game against the Ravens where he called game on Lamar
Jackson on a fourth down sack. He had the game
last year against the Falcons where he essentially called game
against then one. Right, Yeah, he essentially called game on
(29:33):
our boy Gino Smith in that Sunday night.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
I remember that.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Yeah, he has like a four sack game, you know,
he he's just had like when he goes big, he
goes so big and at the biggest moments, And I
do think that's that's how you get defined as like
one of the greatest of the greats.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Yeah, I feel like anyone on this list has to
have taken over a game or taken a game games, right,
but bo, you know, both the all of the guys
we've talked about thus far, you would put in that category.
And with a pass rusher, that's like a really high
bar because it doesn't happen that often. And there's probably
like three or four guys in the league right now
(30:11):
where you can say I can point to a few
times where that's happened, And yeah, certainly it's been TJ.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
Wild.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
There's there's something cool too about that he is like
the ed Rusher of the Pittsburgh Steelers, that he's continuing
that you know, tradition for that team.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
But he's the next and the greatest.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
And the reason why he wasn't high on my list
at first is I think I was a little biased
towards the players.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
That are in the middle of their prime.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
I mentioned before that like Justin Jefferson and Chase just
felt like just sure, if they had one or two
more years, like they really might make it. But seeing
you know, Wat's been in the league by now eight years,
and so why I started comparing them and you compare
his resume and here's some other guys. I'm just curious
your thoughts, like like a Kaleis Campbell, for instance, who
(30:56):
was All Proof Football Reference All twenty tens team, who
had a second place at a Defensive Player of the Year.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Jared Allen who's in the Hall of Fame.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Jason Taylor, who you know was a second team All
two thousands is in the Hall of Fame. But I
don't think, actually, when I looked at it, that his
highest of highs were as high as t J.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Watt.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Dwight Freeney was probably my toughest omission where his peak
maybe wasn't quite as long, but he was such a
good player. But those guys, like, none of them had
a defensive player of the year like top four type
of run that that TJ.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
Watt had.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Yeah, I think you can probably. I mean TJ. Wat's
been like top one to three for.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Four years.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah, at least.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
In some other years as well, where he wasn't that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yeah, none of the guys you mentioned I would put
over him, So I think that's fair. I am curious
now to see how high that another guy who i'd talked, well, yeah,
I don't want to. I don't want you to spoiler.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Oh it's okay, it's good. It's a good tease for
for the rest of us. Speaking of let's talk about
a player that I know you will enjoy discussing number.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
Twenty two, Walter Jones.
Speaker 5 (32:11):
Let's be anything on the way head with me. I
want you to come in, you know, and try to
attack him. It's an honor to join Steve Larger at
quarter as Kennedy, I'm going to hear to rush up.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
A feeling that tell me what w.
Speaker 4 (32:24):
Christer Jones get the crown one at.
Speaker 5 (32:28):
The third player to represent the Sea.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
Yak fronchise, He's steal the Bess.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Walton is still to Bess and the twelfth man.
Speaker 6 (32:35):
What a great push by that left side of the
Sea Yawks offensive line.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Oh, Walter Jones, big Walt, he could be even higher
on the list, Mina, but I wanted to hear you
talk about your Seahawks. I mean, you were very young
when Walter Jones was at his speaking yeah, for our
for our audio listeners.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
For instance.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
If you're young, you heard that clip, h It was
DeMarcus Ware asking tell me where Walter Jones is, so
that there's like game recognized game, A Hall of Fame player,
just absolutely fearful.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
And worried about what Walter Jones was gonna do.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
I think I was drafted when I was in maybe
fifth or sixth grade, so it wasn't that young. Well,
but then I would say he peaked for so long,
so it was, you know, he My point is that
I was in high school when he was great. I
was the beginning of college. He was still. I mean,
he hit something very rare. Although I guess while and Kelsey.
(33:32):
Interesting continuity here, one player, one team that great, you're
certainly more likely to stay on one team to where
to even begin. I was waiting for the block. It
doesn't have a cool nickname, but the two thousand and
five NFC Championship game.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Talk about it. Play it, we got it, but you
could talk over it, So tell us about.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
It a little bit.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
It's against the Panthers NFC Championship two thousand and five.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
I would contend, Yeah, there we go. Oh my god,
Mike Rucker rip. That man had a family one of
the single most dominant run blocks by left tackle in
the history of the sport right there, and he's taken him.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
For a ride and he said as much too. He
I saw an interview with him that he did. And
that's a play going to the weak side where yeah,
the defense man is on his outside shoulder, so he
has to get to the inside and block a two
hundred and ninety pounds man and he does it twenty
five yards down the field and it's part of one
(34:35):
of the best his feet. Sorry to no, please please
go on about what Big Waltz meant to you?
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Yeah, that play, so again, like if you what what
was so remarkable about this and maybe this is if
we're talking about Walter Jones and what made him great,
because he was really good at everything. He's a man
that size shouldn't have feet that moved that quick, and
you can really see that on that play. Like sometimes
you know, when a guy's like block, it's just like
he's it's just power and he's just nasty and he's
(35:05):
just kind of like a snowplow, you know, moving the
guy along. That's not what Walter Jones looked like. Like
his feet looked like a tight end or something out there.
It makes no sense. And that was his calling card, Greg.
It was he was so light on his feet and
so unbelievably athletic at his size. I think he ran
like a four six forty famously. I think he played
(35:27):
a little tight end in college or maybe the beginning
of college or something, so he had that background. But
it was just very rare and very unusual, and it
wasn't even I mean, he was an unbelievable past protector.
He just never seemed to get taken by surprise or
rattled again. A lot of that had to do with
the lightness of his feet, you know, I'm sure you
(35:50):
guys have some stats on this. He gave up so
few sacks and so little pressure over the course of
so many years, it was unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Yeah, so's it's fifty seven hundred plays in his career,
only twenty three sacks in that entire time, and nine
holding penalties in that entire time. Four first team All Pros,
two second teams. He is the only player that was
on the Hall of Fames and Pro Football References first
team for the All two thousands, So I thought that
(36:18):
was interesting. He's the only one from this era that
did make that NFL one hundred list, which which did
influence me. It was tough to pick him over Orlando Pace.
Part of it was the way that Jones's career worked out.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
You mentioned his longevity.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Pace was incredible at the start of his career, like
right off the jump in like ninety seven through ninety nine,
and Jones was still peeking late into his career. So
all those All pros that I mentioned are actually in
the two thousands. He actually made it all the way
Mina to the PFF era and so these are like
the last three years of his career, and he was
(36:55):
the highest rated tackle in pass protection in those three
years for PFF, and those are the final three years
of his career.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
That's his mid thirties. So I know, like, there's no
perfect way to mention here.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
To evaluate offensive line, especially twenty years later. But when
you have like the numbers like that, and then you
have all of the people that were around at the
same time saying it, I found like a handful of
players that were like, that's not just the best tackle,
that's the best football player alive right now, or that's
the best football player I've ever seen. And enough of
(37:30):
those I was just like, well, he has to be
on the list, and he could be higher if I wanted.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Who knows with offensive linemen.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Pace was the same draft, right he was.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
He was taken first and Jones yeah, went later.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
He was well no, But crazily enough, he was the Seahawks'
second pick in that draft because they took Sean Springs fourth. Yeah,
and then they traded up with the Bucks for Walter,
which was just insane and a little Seahawks lowreer. A
lot of that had to do with because that was
when all Alan took over the team. This was before
the rookie contract era. And Paul Allen was rich enough
(38:04):
to afford to for his around rookies. Like a weird
quirk of NFL history where he gave the green light
to do it, because that was what I think right
after the sale.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Or great, great call, because I was wondering, like I
was looking at his contracts and stuff. It's just like
those first round contracts at the time. They were like
seven years long, but they were they were huge for
the time.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
But you're absolutely right. They tried to trade up with
the Jets.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
They thought they had to deal with the Jets at
six in the end, the Jets said no, like when
they were on the clock. But Bill Parcell's got a
small assist apparently said hey, we were talking trade with
the Bucks. I don't think they're going to want to
sit there. You should call the Bucks. They call the
Bucks and they make history taking Walter Jones.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
The contracts too, are another funny part of Walter Jones's career.
Who was the torreous for just not showing up to
camp again. This is all that you learn a lot
about NFL contract and CBA history through just reading about
Walter Jones. But every year he would just hold out
and he would train on his own, pushing like SUVs
up them and then just show up seth Wickershiam did
(39:08):
a great story about a USP in the magazine like
twenty years ago. By the way, Uh anyways, he I
feel like Cortez Kennedy before him, maybe was the last
great Seahawks, but he really defined Seahawks football for an
extraordinarily long amount of time.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
I loved hearing some old clips I found at like
John Madden talking about him and to be as recognized
as he was in like a pre internet era essentially
as just that dude, you have to just be that good.
And I did want to give a shout out to,
you know, his line mate Steve Hutchinson, who wasn't always there,
(39:49):
but once they got him in the trade that is
almost unquestionably the best left side of an offensive line
in NFL history. I started covering the NFL for Roadal
World in three and I would say that Seahawks offensive
line not that people talk about all time great offensive lines,
but maybe they get forgotten a little bit to me,
because to me, they would be right near the top
(40:10):
with the Cowboys of the mid twenty tens of the
best offensive lines you know that I've you know, had
a privilege to cover and having Jones and Hutchinson next
to each other for a chunk of their primes is
pretty crazy.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
We've been punished for it with twenty years in battle
place since then.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
That's so true.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
So yeah, shout out to Steve Fudgets it did not
make the list, but had to get Jones on there.
Ravens fans, if you're curious, Jonathan Ogden, you know only
five years of his prime were in the two thousands,
so he like we missed a lot of the very
best of his career some other really great tackles over
the years. Lane Johnson did not make it for me.
(40:51):
Jason Peters did not make it for me. Tyron Smith,
who man, it's close at his very very best is
it's hard to like ar you against him. But we
can only have so many offensive linemen.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
We have a handful. We have a few more to go.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Let's go to our next guy and our last guy
will talk about with you.
Speaker 8 (41:08):
Mina number twenty one, Lamar Jackson, it's a second down
and free Jackson takes it himself.
Speaker 5 (41:21):
Look at him back and forth. Oh it broke his ankles.
Now he's gotten that turage. Damn, he's got a touchdown.
He is, who deny? Who want to play? Forty seven
yard touchdown run by the magical quarterback Lamar Jackson.
Speaker 7 (41:39):
Wow, he's like Kobe Bryant. How you can't necessarily stop
Kobe Bryan. Kobe Bryant's gonna get his at some point
And that was a great analogy. Lamar's gonna get his
at some point. And we know that, and everybody knows that.
Speaker 3 (41:51):
Everybody knows that buyers to the anz up touchdown on.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
That tun Now I mingle with Vet, but he was
Rema Eyes, so I'm right.
Speaker 4 (42:01):
I'll say, all right, then I had to be twenty.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
Lamar Jackson makes a list at twenty one, two MVPs
and a first team All Pro in the year twenty
twenty four, where he didn't win MVP but probably his
best season had led the yards per carry in terms
of the entire NFL four different time, third all time
if you're into quarterback rating, by the way, like if
you're just one of those old school people that like
(42:25):
quarterback rating and wins, I know wins are not a
quarterback stat mina, but he's third all time in like
winning percentage in quarterback fascorating Yeah, kdr, Yeah, it's funny, yes, passerating.
It's funny to me that like he dominates those like
old school traditional stats too, so there's no way to
come at him.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
The passerrating one is the one that blew my mind
this season because he came close to the Rogers passer
rating record, and passer rating, for those who don't know,
doesn't take into an account quarterback rushing, which is why
it's kind of a useless stat to be honest, because
quarterback rushing is such a big part of the modern
gamell QPR accounts for a point whatever we have to
(43:01):
get to it, but anyway, point is like the quarterback
who coming into this league. I don't want to overplay
the Bill Poleon thing, but it was questioned by everybody
whether or not he could be a pocket passer now
whether they just switch positions. Just came close to breaking
the Pesser rating record, Like I cannot stress enough. And
I was as much of a Lamar Jackson fan as
(43:24):
anyone in that draft Dominice, and I wrote long article
about him like staking our you know, planting our flag.
I did not think he would be this good. It
is unbelievable what he has accomplished and he's only twenty eight.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Yeah, there's no way to say about really any prospect
coming in that year. He is going to be an
inner circle all time great and that's what he is.
And that's what I had to think about with this exercise,
Like I was like, has he played long enough in
the NFL?
Speaker 3 (43:56):
It's been seven years?
Speaker 1 (43:57):
Has he done enough to get on this list over
some really great quarterbacks? Because I didn't want to make
this just like an all quarterbacks list. Initially I had
him on like a little higher than I had him
completely off. And I settled here and just decided, like,
especially of this generation. You know Mahomes is coming up
spoiler alert, but of this generation, he literally was the
(44:18):
best player in the league either three times or if
you want to split it, this last year, like two
and a half times. And he's the best running quarterback
ever that like goes without saying not just that he
had the best season of all time in terms of
rushing yards, but leading all the NFL including the running
backs and yards per carry four times, Like to me,
is so crazy, But what you realize pretty quickly, and
(44:39):
I think about that week one game actually in his
first full season starting, it was twenty eighteen, right or
twenty nineteen, sorry, against Miami, and that game where he
is just throwing bombs down the field and he is
so good throwing over the middle of the field, and
that is the game where you kind of realize, oh,
his legs are going to set up so much with
this passing and he is such a good passer. And
(45:01):
that season, you know, his first full season as a starter,
he wins the MVP.
Speaker 4 (45:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
I think he's also a guy where the stats, as
unbelievably impressive as they are, and you know, we just
discussed all of them, still don't capture what he does
to defenses and what he does on a football field
and the way he I would say, more than any
other player I've watched, Clee Michael Vick. He has more
(45:29):
gravity as a dual threat, and I love watching the
Ravens on tape for this reason. I love the way
he pulls defenses on a string still and the opportunities
that creates for the run game and other players is
just unparalleled. He is also just the most electric like
(45:52):
dynamic runner, you know, I mean just his style, the
fact that he never appears to be moving at full speed.
Is crazy. And then, oh, by the way, he also has,
by the way, become the most accurate passer in the NFL,
because you know, I was always a believer in his
passing ability and his football IQ and whatnot, but he
was not the passor he is now earlier in his career.
(46:12):
And that's another thing I really have loved about watching
him and about his game. And this is the same
would apply to Josh Allen. He's gotten so much better, Greg,
and he's twenty eight, twenty eight. I mean he's both
him and Allen, by the way, not only have gotten better,
but mentally, I would put up there with anyone in
the league right now.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Right because when you think about that twenty eighteen season
or twenty nineteen season, twenty eighteen, by the way, sort
of underrated when he came in and immediately started winning
games for them and was like an immediate sensation and
helps get them to the playoffs and belonged right away.
But he definitely needed to develop, and he did that
offseason in terms of his passing, You're right that twenty
nineteen season, his running was absolutely setting up his passing
(46:51):
and his passing was better than everyone realized. Hey led
the league in passing touchdowns and QBR ESPNSQBR that year.
But now the way he can manipulate defendant defenders, how
he can anticipate, how he can throw over to the
middle of the field. You have that part of it,
and it's kind of like everyone who ever watched a
running quarterback growing up, whether it was Randall Cunningham or
(47:12):
Steve Young or even Dante Culpepper and just thought, like,
that's so cool. Like if one guy could put it
all together, like at the highest level, wouldn't that be
the coolest football ever? And that is Lamar Jackson. He's
done it. He is that guy.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
So you are taking into account playoff accomplishments putting this
list together. How much are you dinging him for the
fact that he's never been to a Super Bowl? So
he's never won a conference championship game? I imagine you know none,
I mean like Mahome. You said Mahomes is on the list,
(47:49):
so it's not like there's anyone else in this regard.
Speaker 6 (47:51):
But but.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
You know, does that do you think there are people screaming,
how can you put a guy this high? I'm just
playing Devil's advocate here. Do you think that there are
people at home saying, like, well, he's never even won
a conference championship game, how can you put him this
high on a top twenty high list.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
I just think the best way to evaluate a quarterback
is over the course of a regular season, and he's
done that so many times that it tells me that
he will have that playoff success at some point and
that I'm not that worried about it, like we I
saw it with Peyton Manning, who is one of the
greatest individual success stories of all time, and it took
(48:30):
a while for him to actually get it done in
the playoffs, and it didn't change really who who I
think about him and think of all the times just
because of the order it happened that, like Aaron Rodgers
knocked on the door and didn't make it, you know,
or Drew Brees after winning that Super Bowl the one time,
like it took that long. So I don't want to
have to wait till he's thirty one or thirty two
(48:51):
to recognize Plus he's like he just he makes your
jaw drop.
Speaker 3 (48:55):
Let's actually look at one of my favorite Lamar Jackson place.
Speaker 5 (48:58):
Justice Hill who's the best likely emotion, He buckles of
my God, performs groups of them, doctrooms at home, pretends
Hubbard how from a look a word and.
Speaker 4 (49:11):
Cots on touchdown, cots on touchdown then likely.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
Absolutely amazing.
Speaker 5 (49:21):
How in the world did he keep it together and
let him find the open receiver.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
I could just do an entire show on Kevin Harlan
calls of Lamar Jackson touchdowns. I've almost regretted not having
Harlot on this episode just so I can hear him
react to that. But we'll have them on some calls.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
I love it. Next, not to really nerd out, but
next gen jet stats does the you know, completion percentage,
likelihood of throws and whether or not a quarterbacks he
seeded those he's got to have the most like just
preposterously low odds of completing passes, touchdowns, deep passes, and
just pulling the rabbit out of his hat. Of any quarterback,
I mean, Mahomes, I guess would.
Speaker 3 (50:01):
Be above him.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Yes, I don't know, though, I mean they're close. They
both have, you know, all the best quarterbacks in the
league right now, by the way, can lay us to that.
But Lamar, it feels like he has to lead in
this guy moments like that.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
That's worth something like we're talking about best, we're talking
about greatest to me, this freaking guy, this guy he
came to and Josh Allen. It took a little slightly
later developing obviously came out a little later.
Speaker 3 (50:38):
Like he ushered in this new generation.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
It was we were a while between like great truly
like all time quarterbacks. It was really like Andrew Luck
was this one guy in the middle of this desert
that we thought was gonna get there and then obviously
retired early.
Speaker 3 (50:55):
But it was.
Speaker 1 (50:55):
Between these guys and we thought maybe that like the
next great quarterback would would look like this, and he does.
And I think his arm gets underrated. I mean you
mentioned like the crazy plays. One play I watched, like
watching this was a sixty two yard in the air
like air yards opposite hash throw where.
Speaker 3 (51:13):
Like he's at the eight and he hits.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
I think it was the Sean Jackson of all people
in stride. Like he does have a hose, which you
kind of forget about with everything else.
Speaker 2 (51:23):
Yeah, he is a really strong arm and he has
a really unique arm talent. The game where him and
Matthew Stafford just went toe to toe, not this year,
but the previous year where they were just launching nukes
all over the place. It was one of my favorit
football games the last few years. I remember watching that
and being like, these guys have a lot of common
because they both not only have strong arms, and they're
not only preposterous and have like arm arrogance, but they
(51:47):
also are doing like side army, Like Lamar side arms
it a lot. He's throwing off of like crazy platforms.
He's doing really really special things just with his arm.
I just had I just interviewed Darius lagh and now
these in the AFC North. I asked him, are you
more wary of playing Joe Burrow's Bengals or Lamar Jackson's Ravens.
(52:10):
I thought he would say the Bengals because of Jamar
Chasen t Higgins, right, but he was like, no, Lamar.
And it wasn't a knock on Burrow, but he just said,
there's just nothing more frustrating than having to defend defend
two plays in one so often against the quarterback. And
that's just what makes him special. It's like he gets
an extra play like it's crazy. I mean, what he's
(52:31):
able to do.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
For the first handful of years, and it was kind
of back last year too. I thought the most unstoppable
play in the league was when you know, they did
you know, a play action or RPO and he pulls
the ball and he just takes eight yards to the side,
Like for four years the defense was essentially giving him
seven to eight yards just running to the sidelines. There
(52:53):
are so many runs throughout his career where he never
hits the ground. It's just him going out of bounds,
him just like gliding out a bound.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
Crazy. Yeah, the ability to avoid contact is I mean,
knock I would is just the most unique runner that
I don't know. It's crazy watching him run. It just
makes no sense.
Speaker 3 (53:17):
You're the best guest ever.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
Because you even brought up like people yelling at me
about the playoffs. That's I would have just like completely
ignored it, which I which.
Speaker 3 (53:24):
I know I shouldn't. I shouldn't because it was it take.
Speaker 2 (53:27):
I'm certainly used to the playoffs.
Speaker 3 (53:30):
It's a great point.
Speaker 1 (53:32):
I think that the first couple of years he played
tight and he was a young player then, but that's
also like Mahomes came in and played his very best
like immediately in the playoffs. The last couple of years,
he's had great games in the playoffs, whether it's the
divisional round or last year in the championship game, like
doing everything he could, needing the drive and making it
(53:53):
happen and playing well. So that that also really the
last two years especially, and there were there's a couple
of year gap there. They weren't in the playoffs and
he didn't play twenty one and twenty two. So the
last couple of years also as part of the reason
why I feel like he's he's over that hurdle, and
I think he has played well in the playoffs. But yes,
this is more for the regular season. Sorry to the
(54:14):
Josh Allen fans out there, their guy is not going
to be on this list. I mean, I think that's fair, right,
It's fine.
Speaker 2 (54:21):
Yeah, then.
Speaker 3 (54:23):
Said you have such a bad spot.
Speaker 2 (54:25):
You I know, I don't want to make a comment
on this. I think that after Lamar, well, I don't
know which how many.
Speaker 1 (54:33):
Quarterbacks, there's five more. There's five more quarterbacks. And that's
the thing, like I was thinking about Lamar, let's say
versus a Drew Brees. Drew Brees is going to be
on this list, of course. Yeah, and when I think
about lamar At is very very peak and what he's
already accomplished, you could argue, I think that's as high
or higher even than a great player like Drew Brees.
Speaker 3 (54:52):
So the highs are there. I had to not put
my our guy, Philip Rivers on.
Speaker 1 (54:56):
I thought about doing it just to help his Hall
of Fame case, but I don't think I have that
kind of way that it would really matter. Brett Favre
was an interesting one, by the way, because he won
his three MVPs in the in the nineties and then
you realize, like in the two thousands he made like
two first team All Pros and four second teams, Like
he was an incredible player in that decade, even though
(55:16):
like he was even better the one before.
Speaker 3 (55:17):
Like you know, you got your guy Russ.
Speaker 1 (55:19):
There's a lot of great quarterbacks that could have made
this list, Matt Ryan, like, but you can't make it
an all quarterbacks list. But I did want one of
these these current guys, at least at the back end.
Speaker 2 (55:27):
Yeah, I think you chose the right one. Non Mahome's division.
Speaker 1 (55:31):
We're biased though, I mean you wrote the article back
in the day. Check out Mina Chimes. Thank you so much, Mina.
Of course, it's the Mina Chimes Show featuring Lenny and
then the Big Time New Podcast If you were a discretion.
I like that she's tackling pop culture with her friend
(55:51):
David w Pod.
Speaker 2 (55:53):
Check it out if you Right now, we're doing Love Island,
so not everybody's watching Love Island, but subscribe. Keep your
eye on the space even if you aren't. We're going
to do more shows. We're going to do Love is
Blind again, of course, and we also take recommendations love it.
Speaker 3 (56:06):
Yeah. Yeah, I don't need to tell everyone to check
out Mina.
Speaker 1 (56:10):
Our next episode will be the second edition of NFL
Daily's twenty five Players of the last twenty five years.
We will be joined by NFL Networks National reporter Steve Weisch.
Speaker 3 (56:22):
Looking forward to that one.
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