February 27, 2021 • 53 mins
NFL Executive Vice President of Football Operations Troy Vincent, and Executive Director of the NFL Players Association DeMaurice Smith discuss the league's present and future regarding diversity, racism, players rights and other issues. The episode concludes by replaying some of the strongest opinions voiced during the previous nine episodes.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hosting this podcast, I've relied on one of my favorite
Bible passages from the Book of James, Chapter one, verse nineteen.
It says, in part quote be quick to hear, slow
to speak, slow to anger end quote. Welcome to the
(00:20):
final episode of Black in the NFL. I'm your host,
Clifton Brown. During ten episodes of this podcast, I've tackled
emotional topics impacting the NFL, like racism, players protesting against
social injustice, and police brutality. I've wanted every guest to
feel comfortable enough to talk candidly. I've intentionally let my
(00:43):
guests carry the conversation, hoping they would feel free to
reveal what was truly in their hearts and minds. This
final episode of Black in the NFL is entitled where
We're Going. My guests are two of the most powerful
people in the NFL, Troy n NFL Executive vice president
of Operations and de Marie Smith, executive director of the
(01:06):
NFL PA. These two influential black men will discuss how
the league is addressed diversity, racism, players rights, and other issues,
and their visions for race in the NFL in twenty
twenty one and beyond. Then We'll close Black in the
NFL by replaying some of the strongest opinions we heard
during the first nine episodes, statements made by people who
(01:30):
challenged us to broaden our thinking. My motivation to do
this podcast was reinforced last year after NFL Commissioner Roger
Goodell admitted the league was wrong for not listening to
its players sooner when they protested against police brutality. I
was disappointed at Goodell did not mention Colin Kaepernick specifically
(01:51):
in that video, but I was encouraged at Goodell was
finally taking a public stance and support of players in
a league where around seventy percent of the players black.
It has been a difficult time for our country, in
particular Black people in our country. First Mike and Doos's
families of George Floyd, Brianna Taylor, Amada Arbora, and all
(02:15):
the families who living dirt police brutality. We the National
Football League, condemn racism in the systematic oppression of black people.
We the National Football League, admit we were wrong for
not listening to NFL players earlier, and encourage all to
speak out and peacefully protests. We the National Football League,
(02:39):
believe black Lives Matter. Our first guest, Troy Vincent is
a former Pro Bowl cornerback who has climbed the ladder
at the league office. He has direct access to the
commissioner and had a candid conversation with Goodell before his
video went viral. It's possible that Vincent could be NFL
commissioner one day, and for months I've wanted to know
(03:02):
what he told it though. Before you decide to release
that Black Lives Matter video. My thought around that is,
and when we had that discussion prior to leading up
to it, don't say it if you don't mean it.
Don't say it if you don't mean it. And I
knew in his heart. I've been working with him. If
(03:24):
you say this, we as a people, we hold you
accountable to it. So don't say it if you don't
mean it. And I knew it when it was hard.
I looked at him. I worked with him on a
daily basis, and I got to check in my spirit
every day and it was just simple, before you do this,
don't do it if you don't mean it. His immediate
(03:47):
reactions for what was to that, well, you can you
can you can almost see the emotions. You can see
the emotion. Welp up, because I've been sitting across the
table since my early day. He's my playing days. On
this topic with him as a player, it seems always
come back. Obviously he's our leader, he's the leader of
(04:08):
our game. But this is a sheer responsibility off. But
I saw the emotion and it goes what else do
I It's almost like he has to keep proving himself
and it's like, no, we got to do this together.
But you're about to go on and make a video.
You're about to make a public statement. Don't say it
(04:31):
if you don't mean it. Our second guest, De Marie
Smith has spent years negotiating with Goodell and the owners
in his role as executive director of the NFL Players
Association since two thousand and nine. To say that Goodell
and Smith don't always see eye to eye would be
an understatement. When Smith here is the NFL checking a
(04:51):
more public stance to support his players and to push
for diversity and an inclusion. He says, it's about time.
How much evidence and did you see of maybe the league?
But I have a better word, a changing perspective or
opening up its attitude or changing as to regarding players
and them speaking on social justice. I always come back
(05:13):
to you. You can hear what the words people are using.
I can't look into somebody's heart. You can't look into
somebody's heart. Clearly, the league made a conscious decision this
year to embrace both the position and the voices that
they had been hearing from their players for years, and
(05:34):
I think that's a good thing. At the same time, however,
I still am happier and more pleased that the players
have been on the right side of this issue even
before it became popular right. I was reminded with the
passing of Rush Limba. It was two thousand and nine,
probably three months after I was elected into this job,
(05:57):
where Rush Limbaugh was leading a consort him to buy
an NFL team that didn't sit well with our players.
I came out publicly saying that him owning an NFL
team didn't represent the best at what NFL players stood
for and what they stood for in their communities. You know,
that was two thousand and nine. So to find the
(06:18):
league becoming more open and supportive of players voices in
twenty twenty is good to see. But if I had
to choose between the two I'm much happier that our
players have decided to take stands and use their voices
for social change and not waited for the league to
(06:41):
join them. So how much progress has the NFL made
over the last twelve months reguarding diversity, social justice issues,
and inclusion. We've seen some landmark events during the twenty
twenty season. Players from around the league knelt and spoke
out about social justice stronger than ever before, without seeing
the same backlash they did four years ago. Three black
(07:04):
General Marriagers were hired, and other black GM candidates like
Jerry Reevees and Rick Smith were finalists. Jason Wright, of
the Washington Football Team, a guest on episode eight of
this podcast, became the first black team president in NFL history.
The Tampa Bay Buccaneers became the first Super Bowl winner
with three black coordinators offensive coordinator Byron Leftwich, defensive coordinator
(07:29):
Tid Bowls, and special teams coordinator Keith Armstrong. The Buccaneers
also had two female coaches on the sidelines, Laura Locas
and Maral Javadifar, while Sarah Thomas became the first woman
on a Super Bowl officiating crew. One of the game's
biggest Stars black quarterback to Shawn Watson is using his
(07:50):
power to reportedly try to force a trade. Patrick Mahomes,
another black quarterback, went to his second straight Super Bowl,
and along with Ray, his quarterback Lamar Jackson, looks like
the game's present and future. However, there are still many shortcomings.
Just two of the eighteen NFL head coaches hired since
(08:11):
the end of the twenty eighteen season have been black,
David Colley of the Houston Texans and Brian Flores of
the Miami Dolphins. Only two more have been minorities, Ron
Rivera of the Washington football team, who was of Hispanic descent,
and Robert Salah of the New York Jets, who was
Arab American. Meanwhile, there was a recent NFL hiring episode
(08:35):
that quickly backfired on the Jacksonville Jaguars. New head coach
Urban Meyer hired Chris Doyle as his strength coach, even
though Doyle was accused of making numerous racist remarks and
bulling and belittling players during his long tenure at the
University of Iowa. Miner claimed he get vetted Doral thoroughly,
(08:56):
but many people, such as Rod Graves, weren't convinced. Graves
is executive director of the Fritz Powder Alliance, and he
was a guest on episode six of this podcast. Graves
immediately called out Meyer for hiring Doyle, who resigned under
pressure the next day after widespread criticism. Quote, it is
simply unacceptable to welcome Chris Door into the ranks of
(09:19):
NFL coaches, Graves said before Door resigned. Graves continued Dua's
departure from the University of Iowa, reflected the tenure riddled
with poor judgment and mistreatment of black players. His conduct
should be as disqualifying for the NFL as it was
for the University of Iowa. Herbert Meyer's statement, quote I've
(09:41):
known Chris for close to twenty years end quote reflects
the good old boy network that is precisely the reason
there is such a disparity in employment opportunities for black coaches.
Let's bring in de Maurice Smith, who was not convinced
that the majority of the third two NFL owners are
it's comfortable with diversity and supporting social justice issues as
(10:03):
he would like them to be. Now, during your tenure
as NFLPA president, have you noticed owners becoming more comfortable
with the idea that players are going to speak out
about racism and social justice or do you still think
that's something that a lot of owners or club executives
would rather not have their players. Do you know? I
(10:27):
have a lot of private conversations with owners, But let's
put it this way. I think you've seen the league
and Roger take a formal stance that is more supportive,
more inclusive, and more open to diversity. I think that
is a good formal step by the league. I'm not
(10:47):
sure it's shared by all of the others as black
men who are also fathers. Diversity in the NFL is
extremely important to Vincent and Smith. They want the NFL
to be more inclusive at the coaching and executive level,
giving the next generation more opportunities. Let's hear again from Vincent,
(11:10):
who believes more people in the league, owners, executives, and
coaches are willing to listen when racial equality, diversity and
inclusions are discussed. He believes genuine progress is being made. Troy,
during the past nine months, when there's been so much
focus on diversity and racial equality in the NFL, what
(11:32):
things have you been most encouraged by to have taken
place in the league. The willingness to listen, the willingness
to have a better understanding around the issues, the pain,
the discouragement of both black men and women, and in
particular black men, that willingness to listen, to have a
(11:53):
better understanding, but also sit at the table zoom calls
conversation stations around solutions and how do we as an
industry because we don't own it, but how do we
become better? How do we become part of the solution
to ending racism or systemic racism. So I've been I've
(12:17):
been extremely encouraged. Frankly, not throughout just past year, but
we had some visuals that I think open everyone's eyes
because we have been doing some work in this area.
But I just think twenty twenty and some of the
things that we saw play out nationally, we were able
to take a deeper dive. Now, what things have you
(12:39):
been most discouraged by. I'm not discouraged because I remain optimistic, Cliff,
because I've seen not just internally but externally, I've seen
levels of progress, and in particular as we think about
our industry, the National Football League, I've been part of
(13:01):
building a true plan in educating club owners, educating clubs
around the importance of having a true diversity and equity plan.
I've seen a collective effort around identification of talent at
all levels football and business. I've seen as best we
(13:22):
can the identification and the networking of people of color
and every aspect and every level of our business. I've
seen policy changes that were significant. There were some policies
that have been put in place for decades that did
not allow mobility of coaches, but a disproportionately affected coaches
(13:45):
of color. I saw those walls crash. I saw those
policies now go to the shredder, and I saw club owners,
the commissioner Chairman Rooney Deja Smith put together a plan
again and rectify it. It's been a reform of our system.
So I remain optimistic the batons in our hands. I
(14:08):
remain hopeful even as this hiring season comes to a close.
Not happy with the results from a head coach, but
there were so many other positive We got a new
president and with the Washington Football team, some new gms.
David Culley, Robert Anthony Lynn still relevant Rahem. Eventually we
(14:32):
want to normalize that. But there's been there's been some
progress there that we can build on. So I remain
optimistic and hopeful, right, And that led me to my
next question, some of the things that happened in the
hiring cycle. Do you walk away from this year's hiring
cycle feeling that the process was honestly more inclusive or not?
(14:53):
I do. I do, and our data and we would say, hey,
if you can't measure it doesn't mean our data says so.
And I do believe because when you take a look
at the individuals that were actually part of consideration, we
moved away. I do believe we moved away from what
(15:14):
many would consider sham interviews or why is a team
interviewing him when he really doesn't or she may not
really have an opportunity or real shot. When you look
at the names this year and you go back and
speak to those individuals, which we need to do a
full analysis of that, but Marvin Lewis and the gym
called Wells and the Todd Bowls, we feel, the Patrick
(15:37):
Grahams to Aaron Glenn's there was it was a good cycle.
So we saw an increase when we look at Martin
mayhe's back, Terry Fotono, Jerry Reese, who many are still puzzled.
Jerry Reese was back in an interview process, didn't land one,
but young individuals like Joe Joe, Wooden, Lewis, Riddick, Rick Smith,
(16:00):
these are the best of the best. So I say
that because I've seen I'm looking at it from a
tortality standpoint. Again, not happy with the results from head coaches,
expectation that we all felt like it it would be
more without putting a number on it. Made progress on
the GM side, but remember also I look at the
fall from the black head coach. If we look at history,
(16:23):
typically head coach gets removed, he becomes a position coach
or out of the game. We have liked to seeing
rahin retainer head coaching position, Anthony Lynn. They're coordinators, Marcus
Berry's now an offensive coordinator in Indy. We should not
discount that progress. Several people who've been on this podcast
(16:46):
have insisted that mister Goodell yourself, the league office, they're
committed to improving diversity at all levels of NFL, and
obviously they are making a hard place to make that happen.
So what changes do you think NFL still need us
to me and it's approach to diversity and regining quality.
So Cliff, this is what I would say, and I've
shared this with the Commission over the last few days.
(17:08):
If we've just just talked about it, it is our
hiring cycles almost over. We've got a few more openings there,
and then this is where we now we assess properly,
we analyze, and now we listen before we go back
into how does this work into our strategy because a
(17:29):
seven point mobility plan that we laid out a year ago,
that's our plan and we're committed to that plan. So
now it's time for us as the cycle completely closes.
Now we assess. Let's interview the clubs who interviewed the prospects.
When I say prospects meaning those coaches that they were considering,
(17:51):
those gems that they were considering. Let's also interview Marvin,
Eric b Enemy, Rain, Leslie Frasier. Let's do a true analysis,
an assessment of what did they learn? Same thing with
club owners, why didn't you hire? Then we do a
complete analysis, and then we mapped that. It's so important
(18:12):
that we mapped that to our seven point plan which
are laid out when we finished going into the summer
of twenty twenty. Remember that seven point Mobility Plan, club
and league education, club and league diversity plans, talent identification,
pipeline development and networking opportunities, policy changes. We now have
(18:33):
a universal data collection and then that final point in
that seven point mobility plans was reporting and measuring. That's
where we are today. Obviously, you know, I have so
many conversations about diversity and the importance of it. Why
do you feel that it's important to have more black coaches,
coordinators and executive Why is that so important to league?
(18:55):
It's a more matter of improving the product and how
much of it is because it's the morally right thing
to do. It's to both end. It's not either or.
We have to get to a place where we're doing
the right thing for the right reasons. And Cliff, when
I have the opportunity to participate in these discussions, it's
(19:15):
important that I represent people like yourself, our community, but dignity, honor, professionalism,
to be an example of what we can, what we are,
and that is so important that we represent the possibilities
of what it could be or should be. Diversity is
(19:37):
a fact, but inclusion is a choice. And when we
look around our tables when we're doing business, internally externally,
we always have to ask ourselves who's missing, who's missing
from the table, from gender to people of different nationalities.
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That's inclusion. So it's it's it's never either or it's
a both. And in trying to get people starts with education,
that is good business. It's the right thing to do
for the right reasons. Is there a disconnect on some
level or has there been a disconnect between the NFL's
(20:20):
owners commitment to diversity and the league's offices commitment to diversity.
I gotta ask that question. Yesterday people have made a
broad generalization that the owners or club owners are not
this is not important to them, and that's that's that's
that's false. That's a generalization, that's a general statement. Because
(20:41):
the men and the women that I work with on
these policy changes, on programs, on rewards, on education, their
club principal owners, Kim buggoul Or, Arthur Blank, Michael Bidwell,
hobby lawyer Term and Rooney, these are club owners. We
(21:04):
just got to keep moving. In advances, we would say
we got to keep moving the chains and bring more
people into the camp. And that doesn't come from shaming people.
History tells us shaming people gets you nowhere. We got
to continue to educate, continue to extend love and peace,
and explain the why and why this is good for us,
(21:28):
which ultimately football is part of an American fabric. Why
is good for the game in our communities. The past
year has made it pretty clear that more NFL players
are no longer willing to shut up and play, which
was a title of episode one of Black in the NFL.
More players seem comfortable with using their place in the
(21:49):
public eye to create change, even if some fans turn
their back on a league where more players choose to
speak out. Vincent believes the NFL will continue to back
its speaking out against social injustice, even when fans return
to the stands in a post pandemic world and can
boo or voice their displeasure more loudly when players protest.
(22:12):
Now it's a league willing to lose some sponsors moving
forward if you know there's more blowback as far as
protesting and kneeling. What the objective is just to educate
the fan and we got to find the right balance.
We got to remember click we're an entertainment property that
puts on a live event called football. We're not a
(22:32):
social Justice Group. So finding that balance and I've always
taken that position as a player. Now as an executive,
we got to strike the right balance because people are
tuning into watch the best athletes in the world play
a game that they love. I do believe we working
together with the players, the fan and puts critical why
(22:53):
because they drive the game and finding that right balance
sponsors as well of making sure that we are part
of the critical conversation in the community. We can't be
toned deaf to what's going on. We play a role.
Look at the men who play the game and who
coached the game. So the threat of losing I think
(23:15):
it's about educating our sponsors. Well, we found many of
our sponsors, if not all, are playing some kind of
role in a community around social justice issues. So I've
evenged you as a possible next commissioner, Joy, How do
you react if you hear that I've always been finished
(23:36):
serve where you are. I have so much work on
my table currently right now. I want to serve the
commissioner that's in place, which is Commissioner Cadell, the best
I can. I'm not getting ahead of myself and my colleagues.
I always say that to go. Why you sound like
you just dismissed it. I'm here to serve today. I
(23:57):
don't know what tomorrow brings, sure where the Lord's gonna
leave me. But today I love serving our current commissioner.
I love serving the game. In regards to raising the league,
I guess if you could sum up what's your ultimate
vision regarding diversity and quality for the league in ten, fifteen,
twenty years, what do you see and what does that
(24:19):
vision look like? So as I tell young people, see
the possibilities. If you can see it, you can achieve it.
And I've lived my life spiritually through my faith of
standing on faith things that I'm not able to see,
but I'm just believing it. When I think about diversity,
equit inclusion in our sport, that we really are a
(24:40):
reflection of the American fabric of people, that we are parallel.
We represent the communities, and what is that the community
is made up of all people when we look at
our fans. We should make gender and women on our
sidelines as coaches, as as officials, front office executives, black
(25:04):
men and women, as doctors and engineers and analysts. We
should make that a norm. But it has to be intentional,
and our efforts have to be intentional. We can't be
happy with a little bit of progress and now we
go back to complacency. But the future should represent what
America looks like of all walks of life. We always
(25:27):
talk about football for all Again, Diversity is a fact,
inclusion is a choice. Who are we willing and choosing
to bring into our family moving forward? I believe it's
imperative for the NFL to keep diversity as social justice
(25:50):
at the forefront of its thinking. As Doyle's hiring showed,
it's easy to slip back into old habits. Kaepernick took
a bold stay and to protests during the national anthem,
but it has apparently cost him his NFL career. The
world became more open to discussing racism, social justice, and
(26:10):
police brutality in twenty twenty, but it took the murder
of George Floyd, Amad Arebury, Brianna Taylor and others for
many to be moved enough to protests or at least
be okay with others protesting. Let's bring back Smith, who
has proven that he doesn't shy away from having contentious
battles with the NFL and its owners. As he fights
(26:33):
on behalf of players. However, as Smith looks towards the
NFL's future, he reminds players that when they speak out
on social justice or challenge the league's long standing ways
of doing business, they will sometimes risk paying a heavy price.
It appears that when each ter goes by and Colin
Kaepernick's not in the league, that he may have sacrifice
(26:56):
his NFL career because he peacefully protested bok out about
police brutality and social injustice. What has a union learned
from this NAGA to help other players moving forward when
they want to speak out against social injustice. Yeah, I mean,
the union's job here is to protect them legally if
(27:19):
we have evidence that they are being blackballed or colluded.
And we were a part of the lawsuit that Colin
brought against owners of the National Football League. But you know,
because the other thing that I think that it's important
for the union to make clear to players is while
certainly he paid a high price, no one should ever
(27:40):
think that taking bold stands sometimes doesn't cost careers. Right,
You and I are probably old enough, a little bit
older than most of the averaginge of our players. We
understand clearly because we can remember when Muhammad Ali took
his stance and it cost him the better part of
(28:04):
the prime of his career. You and I know that
John Carlos and Tommy Smith paid a huge price when
they took their stand being expelled from the Olympic Village.
We know that Jackie Robinson endured things that players today
don't have to endure. If you and I could come
(28:26):
up with a world where we knew you could take
brave stands and yet that no one would ever end
up a martyr, you and I would love that world.
But you and I also know that whether it was
Rosa Parks or Mega Evers, or four young girls who
lost their lives in a bombing, the murder of Doctor King,
(28:49):
the murder of Malcolm X, who among us wouldn't love
to have a world where we knew it was free
of martyrdom. It's not so. The Union, I think, is
to protect our players and to pursue every legal avenue
we have if we think they're being targeted or discriminated against,
(29:09):
but more importantly, to teach them that brave stances have
been taken by many, many people before them, and some
of those people paid an ultimate sacrifice. Yeah, I'm sure
you hear it is because I hear it. What do
you say to people, fans or people in Jenner who say,
I just want to escape thinking about social justice issues
when I watch football, I don't want I don't want
(29:30):
to see players speaking out. What do you say if
people who say that to you? I always go back
to Neil Postman's book, you know, Entertaining Ourselves to Death.
We're in a country where I think you can make
a pretty good argument that we've escaped too much, tried
to be entertained too much, and tried to avoid having
(29:52):
real conversations about what's happening in our community way too much.
At what point does anybody believe that the game of
football was stopped, interfered with, or supplanted because of a
player using his or her voice. Exactly the opposite happened, right.
(30:12):
Every one of our games went off on time, Every
one of them played to a winner or a loser
or a tie. Every fan got exactly the same sporting
event that they wanted to see. So I come back
to sort of a more pointed question to those people,
because none of that interfered with the game. It just
(30:34):
seemed to me that you would rather see somebody go
perform for you or dance for you. Those days are
over now. We did see in an NBA a few
games not played during the bubble in pro chess. Because
you haven't visioned something like that happened in the NFL,
(30:55):
it might and look, you know, you talk about the
consequences of that, right, the players would have to know
that if they decided not to play, the team could
take the position that they were in breach of their contract,
or the team could take the position that they are
not going to pay them for that game. And to me,
the question isn't you know only whether that could happen
(31:18):
in the National Football League? I think that it could.
But every player needs to take in the consideration that
you're doing that in order to use your voice to
make a point. But it might come at a cost,
and by the way, you might decide that it's worth
the cost. Right, And so when those NBA players walked
off the court, they made a strong decision about what
(31:41):
they wanted to do. They also made a decision a
few days later to come back and play. And that's fine.
But going back to the perspective of the fan, I'm
not sure any fans ticket entitles them to that athlete
becoming less of a three dimensional person than the person
(32:04):
watching in the stands. Right, fans in the stands clapped
through the national anthem. Fans in the stands sometimes don't
pay attention to the national anthem. It's awfully weird to
me that we've never had a conversation about them. We're
only having a conversation about what players are doing before
the game. Now. For last several weeks, I've been hearing
(32:24):
and reading stories and reports about Deshaun Watson being unhappy
with some decisions and technism made. They've been reports about
Russell Wilson before they not being happy about some personal
decision to see Offsen made. Do you think we're moving
to it an error? We're more prominent players in the NFL,
will seem to have more influence about how their franchise
(32:47):
will run and where they play via trade request or holdouts.
I don't know whether we're moving to that place or not.
I think that we should have moved to that place
long ago. NBA players seem to take all sorts of positions,
not only about the structure in terms of their contracts,
(33:08):
but what's going on with personnel decisions. Now, you know
you can complain about that or like that or not
like that, but you and I both know that that's
a fact. Right. I think NFL players have the ability
to use power, just like NFL owners have the ability
(33:29):
to use power. When NFL owners want to trade you,
or NBA owners want to trade you, they trade you.
When they want to limit your playing time, they limit
your playing time. Again, it's their exercise of power. When
basketball players or NFL players who are free agents or
(33:52):
have not signed their contract hold out or refuse to
come to camp somehow, the whole conversation now turns into
that guy is not a team player. That guy isn't
doing what's best for his team. He's just acting selfishly.
In those situations, the player is utilizing his power. Again,
(34:14):
it just seems to be a dichotomy between the acceptance
of an owner using his power and a castigation of
a player when the player chooses to use his power. Right,
they're both utilizing what power they have at their fingertips.
(34:34):
It's just the media does a pretty good job of
making one selfish and making the other one prudent and smart.
Now you understand, why, why, why we have such dust
ups at the National Football League between me and everybody else,
because well nobody, nobody pays me on that side at all.
(34:57):
So I think the closer we get to speaking truth
to power in calling things as it is, the better.
You might not agree with it, but fine, everybody can
can voice their opinion. But I just think that where
we are in sport today, it does serve as a
convening of people in America to come together. But I
(35:18):
don't think that our convening power should ever come at
the expense of our player's authenticity. Now, about seventy of
NFL players are black, zero percent of NFL owners are black.
How much do you think, I'll say it this way,
potential black ownership down the line is important for the
(35:39):
league as far as to change a coster and maybe
the thinking of overall ownership in NFL. I don't know
the answer to that question. You know, it seems to
me that there's two ways of looking at it. Do
you want more diverse owners in the league because you
think it makes for a prettier picture of the ownership group,
(36:03):
or do you think that having more diversity will result
on its own result in a more diverse and inclusive
league and front office jobs, league office jobs, head coaching jobs. Well,
I think we would be kidding ourselves if we thought
(36:24):
that simply by increasing the diversity of ownership that you
will magically arrive at the optimal level of diversity, inclusion
and inclusion in the National Football League. And I think
there's just one recent example to drive that home. Shad
(36:44):
Khan is a person of color. He's the owner of
the Jacksonville Jaguars, and their head coach hired a strength
and conditioning coach who allegedly demean an insulted African American
players and was pushed out of his job in Iowa.
So that's an example of an owner of color either
(37:09):
allowing or not knowing that his head coach was hiring
someone who had, let's just be charitable, a less than
optimal viewpoint about black players that he had previously coached.
So I'm not sure I'm just going to be happy
with us reaching Nirvana simply because we have more owners
(37:33):
of color. It seems to me that we, like most
companies in America, regardless of your ownership and who's in
your c suite, companies who have done a good job
of diversity and inclusion, like, for example, this union, which
is incredibly diverse both women and race. It wasn't by accident.
(37:55):
We insist on not only looking for the best talent
and retaining the best talent, but also looking for and
retaining the best talent from a diverse pool of candidates.
And because we are relentlessly focused on both diversity and excellence,
(38:17):
we've achieved probably the most diverse sports head office in
the country that also operates at an extremely high level.
You know, obviously it's your job to fight for all players,
you know it has a union. But as a black man,
as a father, having experienced your own life experience, how
(38:37):
much of your fighting for players, fighting for racial equality,
fighting for social justice is kind of a personal thing
for you. I don't have the luxury of divorcing the
fact that I'm a black man in America in a
business where every now and and you still find yourself
(39:02):
fighting for just the right to belong. I've been a
lawyer for a really long time. I've been fortunate to
do extremely well the Department of Justice to extremely well
being a partner at a major law firm, negotiated now
to collective bargaining agreements. We sit at the top of
(39:24):
the revenue stream in football, and I'd be lying to
you if I didn't know that when I'm walking in
to a bargaining room with ownership that doesn't look like me,
that there aren't people there who are still questioning whether
I belong. I use that as fuel. I use that
(39:46):
as fuel for my kids. I use that as a
mission focus for our organization. And it is certainly not
lost on me that the battles that we continue to
fight as all players sometimes are still battles rooted in
race and class, and I don't see that changing in
(40:09):
the near future, and it probably is one of the
reasons why I bring a little bit of heat to
the job. But I'm not going to apologize for it.
It seems to me that to ignore that fact is
to ignore the very essence of America's struggle with race,
and it would be to ignore the fact that we
(40:32):
are continuing to fight some of the battles that my
parents fought, your parents fought, my grandparents fought, and what's
likely going to be battles that my kids and my
grandkids are going to fight. Given the choice between ignoring
that and embracing that, gratifyingly choose the latter. As promised,
(40:56):
We're going to end this episode of Black in the
NFL by hearing soundbites from some of our distinguished guests
who spoke on previous episodes. Here's former Ravens tight end
Ben Watson or why he didn't kneel when he played
If I know, for police brutality, which I believe there is,
for racial uniquality, which I believe we still deal with,
(41:21):
I didn't see a time in the for feeable future
where I would ever be able to get up Wow.
John J. College Professor doctor Gloria Brown Marshall on the
importance of exercising the right to vote for people to
abstain and say I'm gonna sit this one out. Well,
brother sister, you cannot sit this one out. You cannot
play two year old peekaboo games that you cover your
(41:43):
eyes in the world disappears you are in this world.
You're playing a role, and if you don't play a role,
then you're gonna get played. Ravens Hall of Famer Osy
Newsome on growing up in the segregated South. I will
playing against this corner and he called me everything. I mean,
all of the words that you know, you and I
(42:05):
both have heard our lives, you know what. And I
just kept beating it, you know. And at the end
of the day, he did a lot of talking, but
I did a lot of score. We would go out
on the field. I ever remember the very first time,
I think I was the last person that was chosen,
you know. Now, I would say probably a week later
(42:28):
or two weeks later, I was the first person that
was chosen, you know. But so you you understood that,
But then you allowed your your abilities to speak for you,
you know, yeah, I had. I was a person of
different color, but my abilities were the one that did
a lot of my talking. Social activists doctor Harry Edwards
(42:49):
or NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell's video and Colin Kaepernick. First
of all, the first time Cap sat on the cooler
in that preseason game. I went into the locker room
after San Francisco for the Niners and got his jersey
and his shoes. Had an autograph him, and I sent
him to Lonnie Bunch, who was then curate of the
National Museum for African American History and Culture, and I
told him to put him in the chaos right between
(43:11):
our league and Smith and Carlos because Kaepernick was going
to be the face of this generation of athletes, and
Lynne said, well, how do you know? And my response was,
because the analysis is correct, I knew exactly and precisely
where that was headed. I also talked to Roger on
a regular basis. Troy Benson and Roger Goodell. They are
(43:32):
imminently decent people. Roger is an individual who was at
the helm of the ship of the NFL, but there
are thirty two guys behind him wearing captain's hats and
all of them are talking at the same time. He's
in a tough position, but that's what they pay him
to do. So I don't have any sympathy for him,
but I do try to advise him in terms of
what I think are creditable steps that he can take
to deal with this situation. When he came out with
(43:56):
this statement, he did not consult me. But on the
other hand, sometimes he uses me black a lawyer. He
doesn't come to me before he commissed the murder. He
comes to me after he commissed the murder and say,
how do I claim this mess up? So so this
is one of those instances where that would have been
a statement that I would not have advised them to make.
And if he was going to make a statement, he
should have used Kaepernick's name. He should have came out
(44:18):
and said, I understand the situation. I'm the commissioner of
the league. I do not hire players. I think that
Kaepernick should be in the league. Mouthing black lives matter
doesn't mean you get it. White people will get black
lives matter when they've changed the system, when we've shifted
from the pain of the black community to the problems
(44:38):
embedded in the human and institutional relationships in the white community,
and those changes have been made and they can look
back and say, wow, we get it. That was some
six stuff we were involved in. But until then, just
mouthing me too doesn't mean they get it. And when
you mouthed me too, and don't even use the name
(44:58):
of the individual who is most central to the situation
you're addressing, like Kaepernick, then you really don't get it.
We're in the same situation now that we've been in
since twenty seventeen, when Kaepernick was not picked up by
a team. Kapp is still on the street. All of
the PSAs, all of the sympathetic statements, all of the
(45:19):
money they may play. It's the social justice issues won't
mean very much. In point of fact, it will stand
and start contradiction to the reality, if not in abject hypocrisy.
As long as Kaepernick is on the street, social activist
Richard Lapchick or his advice for Commissioner Roger Goodell, I
(45:41):
would advise him keep listening to the players, hear their voices,
understand that they are, which I think he does now,
multidimensional human beings. And I think this is one of
the things about athlete activism that is has finally captured
the spirit of players. Is you know, they used to
be asked that you think he'll be a recover from
(46:02):
this injury and be able to play on Sunday. I
think the team will win the conference championship, will be
playing the Super Bowl. Now they're being asked about wealth
in America and the disparities and educational systems, and the
disparities and healthcare systems in the COVID crisis, you know,
the disproportionate impact on black and brown communities from the
plague in this country. At the moment, it feels good
(46:24):
to be treated as a multidimensional human being and I
think Roger Goodell and the league office is now doing
that and we're going to see more, hopefully more of
a partnership in the future, and I would encourage him
to even expand that further. Hall of Fame Quarterback war
in Moon but how he felt, but he wasn't drafted
by the NFL to play quarterback. I loved that I
(46:47):
had an opportunity to play pro ball. I love that
I had an opportunity to continue to play quarterback, but
I hated the fact that I had to leave my
own country to go do it. I hate it the
fact that my own country didn't realize that I had
the ability to play the position. So there was bitterness
on top of loving the opportunity to just continue to
keep playing a game that I loved. Ravens quarterback, LaVar
(47:09):
Jackson or today's black quarterbacks changing the game. Are we
passed the point of with what you and Mahomes doing,
DeShawn Russell Wilson, the negative stereotypes of black quarterbacks or
do you think there's still some of that going on? Oh,
it's gonna still be some of that going on, you know,
but it dying down a lot, you know, because each
(47:29):
and every Sunday or whenever any one of us play,
you know, we were showing up and were putting on
the show. You know, we're not just they're just playing
football and just doing anything. We out there winning games,
and I feel putting our team in the best situations,
you know. So I guess we changed the narrative from
as we're going just like the guys before us Rod Graves,
executive director of the Fritz Poloder Lions, or the false
(47:52):
narrative that there aren't enough qualified black head coach at
GM candidates. One of the fallacies that we've heard, you know,
the last couple of years, is that the pipeline for
black candidates is not deep enough. And every time I
hear something like that and I almost want to jump
up out of my chair and start swinging because these
(48:14):
are the you know, I can go through a list
of people. Hall of Fame coach Tony Dungee. Oh why
more black offensive coordinators aren't getting the opportunity Byron Leftwiz
got in Tampa Bay. I think so much of it
is who you know, who you've been around. You know,
Bruce arians coach Byron Leftwiz, so he knows Byron Leftwiz
(48:36):
and when he's looking for an offensive coordinator or a
quarterback coach, well, who's the best guy that I've been around?
And he turns the Byron Leftwiz. That wouldn't have happened
had he not coached him. So that's where the bias is,
I think, not that we can't do it. We haven't
been given those opportunities. NFL Networks, Judy Batista, or the
(48:56):
struggle for more minority head coaches to be hired, are
sort of tearing their hair out stage of what do
we have to do to make this better? Because I
do think you know, a few years ago, when the
Rooney Rule went in, it took a little while to
gain traction. There were owners that were resistant. But then
we got to eight minority coaches in the league. So
that's twenty five percent, which is still not commensurate to
(49:18):
the number of minority players in the league, but it's
much better than where we are now. And then they backslid,
and so now I think they are just sort of
at this point where they're like, what do we have
to do? We just can't keep going like this year
after year where you don't have any minority hires or
one you know when you have eight jobs open every
year myself, or why I wanted to do this podcast.
(49:43):
In my forty years as a sports writer, including nineteen
years at The New York Times, I've had conversations with
legendary athletes like Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods, and today's
young stars like Lamar Jackson. But recently I've had more
candid conversations about raised with athletes than ever before. Because
it's doctor Martin Luther King Jr. Once said we may
(50:04):
have all come on different ships, but we're in the
same boat now. After listening to this podcast, maybe you'll
understand why athletes want to shut up in play, or
maybe you won't, But I'm hoping you'll listen because I
believe more understanding leads the more unity. That's still how
I feel. We've tackled some controversial subjects, but I've learned
(50:27):
plenty and I will continue to work on my own
journey to become a more inclusive person. To struggle for
black people to achieve equality in the NFL and more importantly,
in American society has never been a two minute drill.
(50:51):
It's been a long, hard battle that has lasted for generations.
And continues today. I'm encouraged that so many young adults
who will leave this next generation seem more willing to
talk about race and inclusion than my generation was. I'm
encouraged by the open and honest conversations I've had about
(51:11):
race with black and white friends, co workers, and people
I don't even know over the last eight months. To
those who have listened to Black in the NFL, I
sincerely thank you. To those who are committed to making
our world more inclusive and less discriminatory. We need you.
Don't be discouraged, stay optimistic. My thanks to the Raves
(51:37):
Organization and to Blue Wire for supporting me in this project.
I could not have done it without you. As I
continue to engage in conversations about race in both my
professional and personal life, I will try my best to
be equipped to hear, slow to speak, and slow to anger,
(51:58):
even when I disagree with another person's point of view.
Be safe and be blessed. Black in the NFL is
(52:30):
powered by Blue Wire. This show is produced and edited
by Noah Eberhart, an executive produced by Michelle Andres, Ryan Mink,
John Yales, and Peter Moses. Tuned to the Ravens Podcast
Network for two other podcasts, The Lounge hosted by Garrett
(52:51):
Downy and Ryan Mink and What Happened to That Guy
hosted by John Isaenburn. Game returned to the
Hosting this podcast, I've relied on one of my favorite
Bible passages from the Book of James, Chapter one, verse nineteen.
It says, in part quote be quick to hear, slow
to speak, slow to anger end quote. Welcome to the
(00:20):
final episode of Black in the NFL. I'm your host,
Clifton Brown. During ten episodes of this podcast, I've tackled
emotional topics impacting the NFL, like racism, players protesting against
social injustice, and police brutality. I've wanted every guest to
feel comfortable enough to talk candidly. I've intentionally let my
(00:43):
guests carry the conversation, hoping they would feel free to
reveal what was truly in their hearts and minds. This
final episode of Black in the NFL is entitled where
We're Going. My guests are two of the most powerful
people in the NFL, Troy n NFL Executive vice president
of Operations and de Marie Smith, executive director of the
(01:06):
NFL PA. These two influential black men will discuss how
the league is addressed diversity, racism, players rights, and other issues,
and their visions for race in the NFL in twenty
twenty one and beyond. Then We'll close Black in the
NFL by replaying some of the strongest opinions we heard
during the first nine episodes, statements made by people who
(01:30):
challenged us to broaden our thinking. My motivation to do
this podcast was reinforced last year after NFL Commissioner Roger
Goodell admitted the league was wrong for not listening to
its players sooner when they protested against police brutality. I
was disappointed at Goodell did not mention Colin Kaepernick specifically
(01:51):
in that video, but I was encouraged at Goodell was
finally taking a public stance and support of players in
a league where around seventy percent of the players black.
It has been a difficult time for our country, in
particular Black people in our country. First Mike and Doos's
families of George Floyd, Brianna Taylor, Amada Arbora, and all
(02:15):
the families who living dirt police brutality. We the National
Football League, condemn racism in the systematic oppression of black people.
We the National Football League, admit we were wrong for
not listening to NFL players earlier, and encourage all to
speak out and peacefully protests. We the National Football League,
(02:39):
believe black Lives Matter. Our first guest, Troy Vincent is
a former Pro Bowl cornerback who has climbed the ladder
at the league office. He has direct access to the
commissioner and had a candid conversation with Goodell before his
video went viral. It's possible that Vincent could be NFL
commissioner one day, and for months I've wanted to know
(03:02):
what he told it though. Before you decide to release
that Black Lives Matter video. My thought around that is,
and when we had that discussion prior to leading up
to it, don't say it if you don't mean it.
Don't say it if you don't mean it. And I
knew in his heart. I've been working with him. If
(03:24):
you say this, we as a people, we hold you
accountable to it. So don't say it if you don't
mean it. And I knew it when it was hard.
I looked at him. I worked with him on a
daily basis, and I got to check in my spirit
every day and it was just simple, before you do this,
don't do it if you don't mean it. His immediate
(03:47):
reactions for what was to that, well, you can you
can you can almost see the emotions. You can see
the emotion. Welp up, because I've been sitting across the
table since my early day. He's my playing days. On
this topic with him as a player, it seems always
come back. Obviously he's our leader, he's the leader of
(04:08):
our game. But this is a sheer responsibility off. But
I saw the emotion and it goes what else do
I It's almost like he has to keep proving himself
and it's like, no, we got to do this together.
But you're about to go on and make a video.
You're about to make a public statement. Don't say it
(04:31):
if you don't mean it. Our second guest, De Marie
Smith has spent years negotiating with Goodell and the owners
in his role as executive director of the NFL Players
Association since two thousand and nine. To say that Goodell
and Smith don't always see eye to eye would be
an understatement. When Smith here is the NFL checking a
(04:51):
more public stance to support his players and to push
for diversity and an inclusion. He says, it's about time.
How much evidence and did you see of maybe the league?
But I have a better word, a changing perspective or
opening up its attitude or changing as to regarding players
and them speaking on social justice. I always come back
(05:13):
to you. You can hear what the words people are using.
I can't look into somebody's heart. You can't look into
somebody's heart. Clearly, the league made a conscious decision this
year to embrace both the position and the voices that
they had been hearing from their players for years, and
(05:34):
I think that's a good thing. At the same time, however,
I still am happier and more pleased that the players
have been on the right side of this issue even
before it became popular right. I was reminded with the
passing of Rush Limba. It was two thousand and nine,
probably three months after I was elected into this job,
(05:57):
where Rush Limbaugh was leading a consort him to buy
an NFL team that didn't sit well with our players.
I came out publicly saying that him owning an NFL
team didn't represent the best at what NFL players stood
for and what they stood for in their communities. You know,
that was two thousand and nine. So to find the
(06:18):
league becoming more open and supportive of players voices in
twenty twenty is good to see. But if I had
to choose between the two I'm much happier that our
players have decided to take stands and use their voices
for social change and not waited for the league to
(06:41):
join them. So how much progress has the NFL made
over the last twelve months reguarding diversity, social justice issues,
and inclusion. We've seen some landmark events during the twenty
twenty season. Players from around the league knelt and spoke
out about social justice stronger than ever before, without seeing
the same backlash they did four years ago. Three black
(07:04):
General Marriagers were hired, and other black GM candidates like
Jerry Reevees and Rick Smith were finalists. Jason Wright, of
the Washington Football Team, a guest on episode eight of
this podcast, became the first black team president in NFL history.
The Tampa Bay Buccaneers became the first Super Bowl winner
with three black coordinators offensive coordinator Byron Leftwich, defensive coordinator
(07:29):
Tid Bowls, and special teams coordinator Keith Armstrong. The Buccaneers
also had two female coaches on the sidelines, Laura Locas
and Maral Javadifar, while Sarah Thomas became the first woman
on a Super Bowl officiating crew. One of the game's
biggest Stars black quarterback to Shawn Watson is using his
(07:50):
power to reportedly try to force a trade. Patrick Mahomes,
another black quarterback, went to his second straight Super Bowl,
and along with Ray, his quarterback Lamar Jackson, looks like
the game's present and future. However, there are still many shortcomings.
Just two of the eighteen NFL head coaches hired since
(08:11):
the end of the twenty eighteen season have been black,
David Colley of the Houston Texans and Brian Flores of
the Miami Dolphins. Only two more have been minorities, Ron
Rivera of the Washington football team, who was of Hispanic descent,
and Robert Salah of the New York Jets, who was
Arab American. Meanwhile, there was a recent NFL hiring episode
(08:35):
that quickly backfired on the Jacksonville Jaguars. New head coach
Urban Meyer hired Chris Doyle as his strength coach, even
though Doyle was accused of making numerous racist remarks and
bulling and belittling players during his long tenure at the
University of Iowa. Miner claimed he get vetted Doral thoroughly,
(08:56):
but many people, such as Rod Graves, weren't convinced. Graves
is executive director of the Fritz Powder Alliance, and he
was a guest on episode six of this podcast. Graves
immediately called out Meyer for hiring Doyle, who resigned under
pressure the next day after widespread criticism. Quote, it is
simply unacceptable to welcome Chris Door into the ranks of
(09:19):
NFL coaches, Graves said before Door resigned. Graves continued Dua's
departure from the University of Iowa, reflected the tenure riddled
with poor judgment and mistreatment of black players. His conduct
should be as disqualifying for the NFL as it was
for the University of Iowa. Herbert Meyer's statement, quote I've
(09:41):
known Chris for close to twenty years end quote reflects
the good old boy network that is precisely the reason
there is such a disparity in employment opportunities for black coaches.
Let's bring in de Maurice Smith, who was not convinced
that the majority of the third two NFL owners are
it's comfortable with diversity and supporting social justice issues as
(10:03):
he would like them to be. Now, during your tenure
as NFLPA president, have you noticed owners becoming more comfortable
with the idea that players are going to speak out
about racism and social justice or do you still think
that's something that a lot of owners or club executives
would rather not have their players. Do you know? I
(10:27):
have a lot of private conversations with owners, But let's
put it this way. I think you've seen the league
and Roger take a formal stance that is more supportive,
more inclusive, and more open to diversity. I think that
is a good formal step by the league. I'm not
(10:47):
sure it's shared by all of the others as black
men who are also fathers. Diversity in the NFL is
extremely important to Vincent and Smith. They want the NFL
to be more inclusive at the coaching and executive level,
giving the next generation more opportunities. Let's hear again from Vincent,
(11:10):
who believes more people in the league, owners, executives, and
coaches are willing to listen when racial equality, diversity and
inclusions are discussed. He believes genuine progress is being made. Troy,
during the past nine months, when there's been so much
focus on diversity and racial equality in the NFL, what
(11:32):
things have you been most encouraged by to have taken
place in the league. The willingness to listen, the willingness
to have a better understanding around the issues, the pain,
the discouragement of both black men and women, and in
particular black men, that willingness to listen, to have a
(11:53):
better understanding, but also sit at the table zoom calls
conversation stations around solutions and how do we as an
industry because we don't own it, but how do we
become better? How do we become part of the solution
to ending racism or systemic racism. So I've been I've
(12:17):
been extremely encouraged. Frankly, not throughout just past year, but
we had some visuals that I think open everyone's eyes
because we have been doing some work in this area.
But I just think twenty twenty and some of the
things that we saw play out nationally, we were able
to take a deeper dive. Now, what things have you
(12:39):
been most discouraged by. I'm not discouraged because I remain optimistic, Cliff,
because I've seen not just internally but externally, I've seen
levels of progress, and in particular as we think about
our industry, the National Football League, I've been part of
(13:01):
building a true plan in educating club owners, educating clubs
around the importance of having a true diversity and equity plan.
I've seen a collective effort around identification of talent at
all levels football and business. I've seen as best we
(13:22):
can the identification and the networking of people of color
and every aspect and every level of our business. I've
seen policy changes that were significant. There were some policies
that have been put in place for decades that did
not allow mobility of coaches, but a disproportionately affected coaches
(13:45):
of color. I saw those walls crash. I saw those
policies now go to the shredder, and I saw club owners,
the commissioner Chairman Rooney Deja Smith put together a plan
again and rectify it. It's been a reform of our system.
So I remain optimistic the batons in our hands. I
(14:08):
remain hopeful even as this hiring season comes to a close.
Not happy with the results from a head coach, but
there were so many other positive We got a new
president and with the Washington Football team, some new gms.
David Culley, Robert Anthony Lynn still relevant Rahem. Eventually we
(14:32):
want to normalize that. But there's been there's been some
progress there that we can build on. So I remain
optimistic and hopeful, right, And that led me to my
next question, some of the things that happened in the
hiring cycle. Do you walk away from this year's hiring
cycle feeling that the process was honestly more inclusive or not?
(14:53):
I do. I do, and our data and we would say, hey,
if you can't measure it doesn't mean our data says so.
And I do believe because when you take a look
at the individuals that were actually part of consideration, we
moved away. I do believe we moved away from what
(15:14):
many would consider sham interviews or why is a team
interviewing him when he really doesn't or she may not
really have an opportunity or real shot. When you look
at the names this year and you go back and
speak to those individuals, which we need to do a
full analysis of that, but Marvin Lewis and the gym
called Wells and the Todd Bowls, we feel, the Patrick
(15:37):
Grahams to Aaron Glenn's there was it was a good cycle.
So we saw an increase when we look at Martin
mayhe's back, Terry Fotono, Jerry Reese, who many are still puzzled.
Jerry Reese was back in an interview process, didn't land one,
but young individuals like Joe Joe, Wooden, Lewis, Riddick, Rick Smith,
(16:00):
these are the best of the best. So I say
that because I've seen I'm looking at it from a
tortality standpoint. Again, not happy with the results from head coaches,
expectation that we all felt like it it would be
more without putting a number on it. Made progress on
the GM side, but remember also I look at the
fall from the black head coach. If we look at history,
(16:23):
typically head coach gets removed, he becomes a position coach
or out of the game. We have liked to seeing
rahin retainer head coaching position, Anthony Lynn. They're coordinators, Marcus
Berry's now an offensive coordinator in Indy. We should not
discount that progress. Several people who've been on this podcast
(16:46):
have insisted that mister Goodell yourself, the league office, they're
committed to improving diversity at all levels of NFL, and
obviously they are making a hard place to make that happen.
So what changes do you think NFL still need us
to me and it's approach to diversity and regining quality.
So Cliff, this is what I would say, and I've
shared this with the Commission over the last few days.
(17:08):
If we've just just talked about it, it is our
hiring cycles almost over. We've got a few more openings there,
and then this is where we now we assess properly,
we analyze, and now we listen before we go back
into how does this work into our strategy because a
(17:29):
seven point mobility plan that we laid out a year ago,
that's our plan and we're committed to that plan. So
now it's time for us as the cycle completely closes.
Now we assess. Let's interview the clubs who interviewed the prospects.
When I say prospects meaning those coaches that they were considering,
(17:51):
those gems that they were considering. Let's also interview Marvin,
Eric b Enemy, Rain, Leslie Frasier. Let's do a true analysis,
an assessment of what did they learn? Same thing with
club owners, why didn't you hire? Then we do a
complete analysis, and then we mapped that. It's so important
(18:12):
that we mapped that to our seven point plan which
are laid out when we finished going into the summer
of twenty twenty. Remember that seven point Mobility Plan, club
and league education, club and league diversity plans, talent identification,
pipeline development and networking opportunities, policy changes. We now have
(18:33):
a universal data collection and then that final point in
that seven point mobility plans was reporting and measuring. That's
where we are today. Obviously, you know, I have so
many conversations about diversity and the importance of it. Why
do you feel that it's important to have more black coaches,
coordinators and executive Why is that so important to league?
(18:55):
It's a more matter of improving the product and how
much of it is because it's the morally right thing
to do. It's to both end. It's not either or.
We have to get to a place where we're doing
the right thing for the right reasons. And Cliff, when
I have the opportunity to participate in these discussions, it's
(19:15):
important that I represent people like yourself, our community, but dignity, honor, professionalism,
to be an example of what we can, what we are,
and that is so important that we represent the possibilities
of what it could be or should be. Diversity is
(19:37):
a fact, but inclusion is a choice. And when we
look around our tables when we're doing business, internally externally,
we always have to ask ourselves who's missing, who's missing
from the table, from gender to people of different nationalities.
(19:57):
That's inclusion. So it's it's it's never either or it's
a both. And in trying to get people starts with education,
that is good business. It's the right thing to do
for the right reasons. Is there a disconnect on some
level or has there been a disconnect between the NFL's
(20:20):
owners commitment to diversity and the league's offices commitment to diversity.
I gotta ask that question. Yesterday people have made a
broad generalization that the owners or club owners are not
this is not important to them, and that's that's that's
that's false. That's a generalization, that's a general statement. Because
(20:41):
the men and the women that I work with on
these policy changes, on programs, on rewards, on education, their
club principal owners, Kim buggoul Or, Arthur Blank, Michael Bidwell,
hobby lawyer Term and Rooney, these are club owners. We
(21:04):
just got to keep moving. In advances, we would say
we got to keep moving the chains and bring more
people into the camp. And that doesn't come from shaming people.
History tells us shaming people gets you nowhere. We got
to continue to educate, continue to extend love and peace,
and explain the why and why this is good for us,
(21:28):
which ultimately football is part of an American fabric. Why
is good for the game in our communities. The past
year has made it pretty clear that more NFL players
are no longer willing to shut up and play, which
was a title of episode one of Black in the NFL.
More players seem comfortable with using their place in the
(21:49):
public eye to create change, even if some fans turn
their back on a league where more players choose to
speak out. Vincent believes the NFL will continue to back
its speaking out against social injustice, even when fans return
to the stands in a post pandemic world and can
boo or voice their displeasure more loudly when players protest.
(22:12):
Now it's a league willing to lose some sponsors moving
forward if you know there's more blowback as far as
protesting and kneeling. What the objective is just to educate
the fan and we got to find the right balance.
We got to remember click we're an entertainment property that
puts on a live event called football. We're not a
(22:32):
social Justice Group. So finding that balance and I've always
taken that position as a player. Now as an executive,
we got to strike the right balance because people are
tuning into watch the best athletes in the world play
a game that they love. I do believe we working
together with the players, the fan and puts critical why
(22:53):
because they drive the game and finding that right balance
sponsors as well of making sure that we are part
of the critical conversation in the community. We can't be
toned deaf to what's going on. We play a role.
Look at the men who play the game and who
coached the game. So the threat of losing I think
(23:15):
it's about educating our sponsors. Well, we found many of
our sponsors, if not all, are playing some kind of
role in a community around social justice issues. So I've
evenged you as a possible next commissioner, Joy, How do
you react if you hear that I've always been finished
(23:36):
serve where you are. I have so much work on
my table currently right now. I want to serve the
commissioner that's in place, which is Commissioner Cadell, the best
I can. I'm not getting ahead of myself and my colleagues.
I always say that to go. Why you sound like
you just dismissed it. I'm here to serve today. I
(23:57):
don't know what tomorrow brings, sure where the Lord's gonna
leave me. But today I love serving our current commissioner.
I love serving the game. In regards to raising the league,
I guess if you could sum up what's your ultimate
vision regarding diversity and quality for the league in ten, fifteen,
twenty years, what do you see and what does that
(24:19):
vision look like? So as I tell young people, see
the possibilities. If you can see it, you can achieve it.
And I've lived my life spiritually through my faith of
standing on faith things that I'm not able to see,
but I'm just believing it. When I think about diversity,
equit inclusion in our sport, that we really are a
(24:40):
reflection of the American fabric of people, that we are parallel.
We represent the communities, and what is that the community
is made up of all people when we look at
our fans. We should make gender and women on our
sidelines as coaches, as as officials, front office executives, black
(25:04):
men and women, as doctors and engineers and analysts. We
should make that a norm. But it has to be intentional,
and our efforts have to be intentional. We can't be
happy with a little bit of progress and now we
go back to complacency. But the future should represent what
America looks like of all walks of life. We always
(25:27):
talk about football for all Again, Diversity is a fact,
inclusion is a choice. Who are we willing and choosing
to bring into our family moving forward? I believe it's
imperative for the NFL to keep diversity as social justice
(25:50):
at the forefront of its thinking. As Doyle's hiring showed,
it's easy to slip back into old habits. Kaepernick took
a bold stay and to protests during the national anthem,
but it has apparently cost him his NFL career. The
world became more open to discussing racism, social justice, and
(26:10):
police brutality in twenty twenty, but it took the murder
of George Floyd, Amad Arebury, Brianna Taylor and others for
many to be moved enough to protests or at least
be okay with others protesting. Let's bring back Smith, who
has proven that he doesn't shy away from having contentious
battles with the NFL and its owners. As he fights
(26:33):
on behalf of players. However, as Smith looks towards the
NFL's future, he reminds players that when they speak out
on social justice or challenge the league's long standing ways
of doing business, they will sometimes risk paying a heavy price.
It appears that when each ter goes by and Colin
Kaepernick's not in the league, that he may have sacrifice
(26:56):
his NFL career because he peacefully protested bok out about
police brutality and social injustice. What has a union learned
from this NAGA to help other players moving forward when
they want to speak out against social injustice. Yeah, I mean,
the union's job here is to protect them legally if
(27:19):
we have evidence that they are being blackballed or colluded.
And we were a part of the lawsuit that Colin
brought against owners of the National Football League. But you know,
because the other thing that I think that it's important
for the union to make clear to players is while
certainly he paid a high price, no one should ever
(27:40):
think that taking bold stands sometimes doesn't cost careers. Right,
You and I are probably old enough, a little bit
older than most of the averaginge of our players. We
understand clearly because we can remember when Muhammad Ali took
his stance and it cost him the better part of
(28:04):
the prime of his career. You and I know that
John Carlos and Tommy Smith paid a huge price when
they took their stand being expelled from the Olympic Village.
We know that Jackie Robinson endured things that players today
don't have to endure. If you and I could come
(28:26):
up with a world where we knew you could take
brave stands and yet that no one would ever end
up a martyr, you and I would love that world.
But you and I also know that whether it was
Rosa Parks or Mega Evers, or four young girls who
lost their lives in a bombing, the murder of Doctor King,
(28:49):
the murder of Malcolm X, who among us wouldn't love
to have a world where we knew it was free
of martyrdom. It's not so. The Union, I think, is
to protect our players and to pursue every legal avenue
we have if we think they're being targeted or discriminated against,
(29:09):
but more importantly, to teach them that brave stances have
been taken by many, many people before them, and some
of those people paid an ultimate sacrifice. Yeah, I'm sure
you hear it is because I hear it. What do
you say to people, fans or people in Jenner who say,
I just want to escape thinking about social justice issues
when I watch football, I don't want I don't want
(29:30):
to see players speaking out. What do you say if
people who say that to you? I always go back
to Neil Postman's book, you know, Entertaining Ourselves to Death.
We're in a country where I think you can make
a pretty good argument that we've escaped too much, tried
to be entertained too much, and tried to avoid having
(29:52):
real conversations about what's happening in our community way too much.
At what point does anybody believe that the game of
football was stopped, interfered with, or supplanted because of a
player using his or her voice. Exactly the opposite happened, right.
(30:12):
Every one of our games went off on time, Every
one of them played to a winner or a loser
or a tie. Every fan got exactly the same sporting
event that they wanted to see. So I come back
to sort of a more pointed question to those people,
because none of that interfered with the game. It just
(30:34):
seemed to me that you would rather see somebody go
perform for you or dance for you. Those days are
over now. We did see in an NBA a few
games not played during the bubble in pro chess. Because
you haven't visioned something like that happened in the NFL,
(30:55):
it might and look, you know, you talk about the
consequences of that, right, the players would have to know
that if they decided not to play, the team could
take the position that they were in breach of their contract,
or the team could take the position that they are
not going to pay them for that game. And to me,
the question isn't you know only whether that could happen
(31:18):
in the National Football League? I think that it could.
But every player needs to take in the consideration that
you're doing that in order to use your voice to
make a point. But it might come at a cost,
and by the way, you might decide that it's worth
the cost. Right, And so when those NBA players walked
off the court, they made a strong decision about what
(31:41):
they wanted to do. They also made a decision a
few days later to come back and play. And that's fine.
But going back to the perspective of the fan, I'm
not sure any fans ticket entitles them to that athlete
becoming less of a three dimensional person than the person
(32:04):
watching in the stands. Right, fans in the stands clapped
through the national anthem. Fans in the stands sometimes don't
pay attention to the national anthem. It's awfully weird to
me that we've never had a conversation about them. We're
only having a conversation about what players are doing before
the game. Now. For last several weeks, I've been hearing
(32:24):
and reading stories and reports about Deshaun Watson being unhappy
with some decisions and technism made. They've been reports about
Russell Wilson before they not being happy about some personal
decision to see Offsen made. Do you think we're moving
to it an error? We're more prominent players in the NFL,
will seem to have more influence about how their franchise
(32:47):
will run and where they play via trade request or holdouts.
I don't know whether we're moving to that place or not.
I think that we should have moved to that place
long ago. NBA players seem to take all sorts of positions,
not only about the structure in terms of their contracts,
(33:08):
but what's going on with personnel decisions. Now, you know
you can complain about that or like that or not
like that, but you and I both know that that's
a fact. Right. I think NFL players have the ability
to use power, just like NFL owners have the ability
(33:29):
to use power. When NFL owners want to trade you,
or NBA owners want to trade you, they trade you.
When they want to limit your playing time, they limit
your playing time. Again, it's their exercise of power. When
basketball players or NFL players who are free agents or
(33:52):
have not signed their contract hold out or refuse to
come to camp somehow, the whole conversation now turns into
that guy is not a team player. That guy isn't
doing what's best for his team. He's just acting selfishly.
In those situations, the player is utilizing his power. Again,
(34:14):
it just seems to be a dichotomy between the acceptance
of an owner using his power and a castigation of
a player when the player chooses to use his power. Right,
they're both utilizing what power they have at their fingertips.
(34:34):
It's just the media does a pretty good job of
making one selfish and making the other one prudent and smart.
Now you understand, why, why, why we have such dust
ups at the National Football League between me and everybody else,
because well nobody, nobody pays me on that side at all.
(34:57):
So I think the closer we get to speaking truth
to power in calling things as it is, the better.
You might not agree with it, but fine, everybody can
can voice their opinion. But I just think that where
we are in sport today, it does serve as a
convening of people in America to come together. But I
(35:18):
don't think that our convening power should ever come at
the expense of our player's authenticity. Now, about seventy of
NFL players are black, zero percent of NFL owners are black.
How much do you think, I'll say it this way,
potential black ownership down the line is important for the
(35:39):
league as far as to change a coster and maybe
the thinking of overall ownership in NFL. I don't know
the answer to that question. You know, it seems to
me that there's two ways of looking at it. Do
you want more diverse owners in the league because you
think it makes for a prettier picture of the ownership group,
(36:03):
or do you think that having more diversity will result
on its own result in a more diverse and inclusive
league and front office jobs, league office jobs, head coaching jobs. Well,
I think we would be kidding ourselves if we thought
(36:24):
that simply by increasing the diversity of ownership that you
will magically arrive at the optimal level of diversity, inclusion
and inclusion in the National Football League. And I think
there's just one recent example to drive that home. Shad
(36:44):
Khan is a person of color. He's the owner of
the Jacksonville Jaguars, and their head coach hired a strength
and conditioning coach who allegedly demean an insulted African American
players and was pushed out of his job in Iowa.
So that's an example of an owner of color either
(37:09):
allowing or not knowing that his head coach was hiring
someone who had, let's just be charitable, a less than
optimal viewpoint about black players that he had previously coached.
So I'm not sure I'm just going to be happy
with us reaching Nirvana simply because we have more owners
(37:33):
of color. It seems to me that we, like most
companies in America, regardless of your ownership and who's in
your c suite, companies who have done a good job
of diversity and inclusion, like, for example, this union, which
is incredibly diverse both women and race. It wasn't by accident.
(37:55):
We insist on not only looking for the best talent
and retaining the best talent, but also looking for and
retaining the best talent from a diverse pool of candidates.
And because we are relentlessly focused on both diversity and excellence,
(38:17):
we've achieved probably the most diverse sports head office in
the country that also operates at an extremely high level.
You know, obviously it's your job to fight for all players,
you know it has a union. But as a black man,
as a father, having experienced your own life experience, how
(38:37):
much of your fighting for players, fighting for racial equality,
fighting for social justice is kind of a personal thing
for you. I don't have the luxury of divorcing the
fact that I'm a black man in America in a
business where every now and and you still find yourself
(39:02):
fighting for just the right to belong. I've been a
lawyer for a really long time. I've been fortunate to
do extremely well the Department of Justice to extremely well
being a partner at a major law firm, negotiated now
to collective bargaining agreements. We sit at the top of
(39:24):
the revenue stream in football, and I'd be lying to
you if I didn't know that when I'm walking in
to a bargaining room with ownership that doesn't look like me,
that there aren't people there who are still questioning whether
I belong. I use that as fuel. I use that
(39:46):
as fuel for my kids. I use that as a
mission focus for our organization. And it is certainly not
lost on me that the battles that we continue to
fight as all players sometimes are still battles rooted in
race and class, and I don't see that changing in
(40:09):
the near future, and it probably is one of the
reasons why I bring a little bit of heat to
the job. But I'm not going to apologize for it.
It seems to me that to ignore that fact is
to ignore the very essence of America's struggle with race,
and it would be to ignore the fact that we
(40:32):
are continuing to fight some of the battles that my
parents fought, your parents fought, my grandparents fought, and what's
likely going to be battles that my kids and my
grandkids are going to fight. Given the choice between ignoring
that and embracing that, gratifyingly choose the latter. As promised,
(40:56):
We're going to end this episode of Black in the
NFL by hearing soundbites from some of our distinguished guests
who spoke on previous episodes. Here's former Ravens tight end
Ben Watson or why he didn't kneel when he played
If I know, for police brutality, which I believe there is,
for racial uniquality, which I believe we still deal with,
(41:21):
I didn't see a time in the for feeable future
where I would ever be able to get up Wow.
John J. College Professor doctor Gloria Brown Marshall on the
importance of exercising the right to vote for people to
abstain and say I'm gonna sit this one out. Well,
brother sister, you cannot sit this one out. You cannot
play two year old peekaboo games that you cover your
(41:43):
eyes in the world disappears you are in this world.
You're playing a role, and if you don't play a role,
then you're gonna get played. Ravens Hall of Famer Osy
Newsome on growing up in the segregated South. I will
playing against this corner and he called me everything. I mean,
all of the words that you know, you and I
(42:05):
both have heard our lives, you know what. And I
just kept beating it, you know. And at the end
of the day, he did a lot of talking, but
I did a lot of score. We would go out
on the field. I ever remember the very first time,
I think I was the last person that was chosen,
you know. Now, I would say probably a week later
(42:28):
or two weeks later, I was the first person that
was chosen, you know. But so you you understood that,
But then you allowed your your abilities to speak for you,
you know, yeah, I had. I was a person of
different color, but my abilities were the one that did
a lot of my talking. Social activists doctor Harry Edwards
(42:49):
or NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell's video and Colin Kaepernick. First
of all, the first time Cap sat on the cooler
in that preseason game. I went into the locker room
after San Francisco for the Niners and got his jersey
and his shoes. Had an autograph him, and I sent
him to Lonnie Bunch, who was then curate of the
National Museum for African American History and Culture, and I
told him to put him in the chaos right between
(43:11):
our league and Smith and Carlos because Kaepernick was going
to be the face of this generation of athletes, and
Lynne said, well, how do you know? And my response was,
because the analysis is correct, I knew exactly and precisely
where that was headed. I also talked to Roger on
a regular basis. Troy Benson and Roger Goodell. They are
(43:32):
imminently decent people. Roger is an individual who was at
the helm of the ship of the NFL, but there
are thirty two guys behind him wearing captain's hats and
all of them are talking at the same time. He's
in a tough position, but that's what they pay him
to do. So I don't have any sympathy for him,
but I do try to advise him in terms of
what I think are creditable steps that he can take
to deal with this situation. When he came out with
(43:56):
this statement, he did not consult me. But on the
other hand, sometimes he uses me black a lawyer. He
doesn't come to me before he commissed the murder. He
comes to me after he commissed the murder and say,
how do I claim this mess up? So so this
is one of those instances where that would have been
a statement that I would not have advised them to make.
And if he was going to make a statement, he
should have used Kaepernick's name. He should have came out
(44:18):
and said, I understand the situation. I'm the commissioner of
the league. I do not hire players. I think that
Kaepernick should be in the league. Mouthing black lives matter
doesn't mean you get it. White people will get black
lives matter when they've changed the system, when we've shifted
from the pain of the black community to the problems
(44:38):
embedded in the human and institutional relationships in the white community,
and those changes have been made and they can look
back and say, wow, we get it. That was some
six stuff we were involved in. But until then, just
mouthing me too doesn't mean they get it. And when
you mouthed me too, and don't even use the name
(44:58):
of the individual who is most central to the situation
you're addressing, like Kaepernick, then you really don't get it.
We're in the same situation now that we've been in
since twenty seventeen, when Kaepernick was not picked up by
a team. Kapp is still on the street. All of
the PSAs, all of the sympathetic statements, all of the
(45:19):
money they may play. It's the social justice issues won't
mean very much. In point of fact, it will stand
and start contradiction to the reality, if not in abject hypocrisy.
As long as Kaepernick is on the street, social activist
Richard Lapchick or his advice for Commissioner Roger Goodell, I
(45:41):
would advise him keep listening to the players, hear their voices,
understand that they are, which I think he does now,
multidimensional human beings. And I think this is one of
the things about athlete activism that is has finally captured
the spirit of players. Is you know, they used to
be asked that you think he'll be a recover from
(46:02):
this injury and be able to play on Sunday. I
think the team will win the conference championship, will be
playing the Super Bowl. Now they're being asked about wealth
in America and the disparities and educational systems, and the
disparities and healthcare systems in the COVID crisis, you know,
the disproportionate impact on black and brown communities from the
plague in this country. At the moment, it feels good
(46:24):
to be treated as a multidimensional human being and I
think Roger Goodell and the league office is now doing
that and we're going to see more, hopefully more of
a partnership in the future, and I would encourage him
to even expand that further. Hall of Fame Quarterback war
in Moon but how he felt, but he wasn't drafted
by the NFL to play quarterback. I loved that I
(46:47):
had an opportunity to play pro ball. I love that
I had an opportunity to continue to play quarterback, but
I hated the fact that I had to leave my
own country to go do it. I hate it the
fact that my own country didn't realize that I had
the ability to play the position. So there was bitterness
on top of loving the opportunity to just continue to
keep playing a game that I loved. Ravens quarterback, LaVar
(47:09):
Jackson or today's black quarterbacks changing the game. Are we
passed the point of with what you and Mahomes doing,
DeShawn Russell Wilson, the negative stereotypes of black quarterbacks or
do you think there's still some of that going on? Oh,
it's gonna still be some of that going on, you know,
but it dying down a lot, you know, because each
(47:29):
and every Sunday or whenever any one of us play,
you know, we were showing up and were putting on
the show. You know, we're not just they're just playing
football and just doing anything. We out there winning games,
and I feel putting our team in the best situations,
you know. So I guess we changed the narrative from
as we're going just like the guys before us Rod Graves,
executive director of the Fritz Poloder Lions, or the false
(47:52):
narrative that there aren't enough qualified black head coach at
GM candidates. One of the fallacies that we've heard, you know,
the last couple of years, is that the pipeline for
black candidates is not deep enough. And every time I
hear something like that and I almost want to jump
up out of my chair and start swinging because these
(48:14):
are the you know, I can go through a list
of people. Hall of Fame coach Tony Dungee. Oh why
more black offensive coordinators aren't getting the opportunity Byron Leftwiz
got in Tampa Bay. I think so much of it
is who you know, who you've been around. You know,
Bruce arians coach Byron Leftwiz, so he knows Byron Leftwiz
(48:36):
and when he's looking for an offensive coordinator or a
quarterback coach, well, who's the best guy that I've been around?
And he turns the Byron Leftwiz. That wouldn't have happened
had he not coached him. So that's where the bias is,
I think, not that we can't do it. We haven't
been given those opportunities. NFL Networks, Judy Batista, or the
(48:56):
struggle for more minority head coaches to be hired, are
sort of tearing their hair out stage of what do
we have to do to make this better? Because I
do think you know, a few years ago, when the
Rooney Rule went in, it took a little while to
gain traction. There were owners that were resistant. But then
we got to eight minority coaches in the league. So
that's twenty five percent, which is still not commensurate to
(49:18):
the number of minority players in the league, but it's
much better than where we are now. And then they backslid,
and so now I think they are just sort of
at this point where they're like, what do we have
to do? We just can't keep going like this year
after year where you don't have any minority hires or
one you know when you have eight jobs open every
year myself, or why I wanted to do this podcast.
(49:43):
In my forty years as a sports writer, including nineteen
years at The New York Times, I've had conversations with
legendary athletes like Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods, and today's
young stars like Lamar Jackson. But recently I've had more
candid conversations about raised with athletes than ever before. Because
it's doctor Martin Luther King Jr. Once said we may
(50:04):
have all come on different ships, but we're in the
same boat now. After listening to this podcast, maybe you'll
understand why athletes want to shut up in play, or
maybe you won't, But I'm hoping you'll listen because I
believe more understanding leads the more unity. That's still how
I feel. We've tackled some controversial subjects, but I've learned
(50:27):
plenty and I will continue to work on my own
journey to become a more inclusive person. To struggle for
black people to achieve equality in the NFL and more importantly,
in American society has never been a two minute drill.
(50:51):
It's been a long, hard battle that has lasted for generations.
And continues today. I'm encouraged that so many young adults
who will leave this next generation seem more willing to
talk about race and inclusion than my generation was. I'm
encouraged by the open and honest conversations I've had about
(51:11):
race with black and white friends, co workers, and people
I don't even know over the last eight months. To
those who have listened to Black in the NFL, I
sincerely thank you. To those who are committed to making
our world more inclusive and less discriminatory. We need you.
Don't be discouraged, stay optimistic. My thanks to the Raves
(51:37):
Organization and to Blue Wire for supporting me in this project.
I could not have done it without you. As I
continue to engage in conversations about race in both my
professional and personal life, I will try my best to
be equipped to hear, slow to speak, and slow to anger,
(51:58):
even when I disagree with another person's point of view.
Be safe and be blessed. Black in the NFL is
(52:30):
powered by Blue Wire. This show is produced and edited
by Noah Eberhart, an executive produced by Michelle Andres, Ryan Mink,
John Yales, and Peter Moses. Tuned to the Ravens Podcast
Network for two other podcasts, The Lounge hosted by Garrett
(52:51):
Downy and Ryan Mink and What Happened to That Guy
hosted by John Isaenburn. Game returned to the
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