Episode 2: To Kneel Or Not to Kneel

Host Clifton Brown talks with Calais Campbell, Matthew Judon, Benjamin Watson and Steve Wyche about how kneeling in the NFL has evolved from 2016 to now.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
My father fought in World War Two and put his
life on the line defending the United States. He was
proud of his military service. He believed America was the
greatest country on earth. He felt a strong bond with
others who served, and he would have challenged anyone who
called him unpatriotic. Yet, were he alive today, my father

(00:23):
would have understood why many of today's athletes are taking
a knee during the national anthem. After my father returned
to North Carolina in nineteen forty three as a decorated
war veteran, he remained the target of overt racism. There
were restaurants that refused to serve him, colleges that wouldn't

(00:46):
admit him, neighborhoods where he couldn't live. That was his
reality as a black World War Two veteran returning to
a country where a racism against him was blatant. Those
experiences and many others, led to my father becoming a
peaceful protester during the nineteen sixties. Despite being a World

(01:10):
War Two veteran. My father loved this country, but he
wasn't afraid to challenge it when he believed people were
being mistreated. He never wanted America to stop making progress,
and it most definitely has. I'm so grateful that I've
had many opportunities that my father never had. However, if

(01:31):
my father could see all the things that have happened
in twenty twenty, if he saw the way George Floyd
and a mid Allbury were murdered, if he read about
Brianna Taylor's death, There's no way I can imagine my
father looking at me this Sunday when we're getting ready
to watch the game and saying, son, why did those

(01:53):
guys take a knee? Welcome to Black in the NFL.
I'm your host, Clifton Brown. I've been covering professional sports
and some of their biggest stars for more than thirty
years at the New York Times, Sporting News, Comcast Sportsnet,

(02:13):
and now here with the Baltimore Ravens. This is episode
two of Black in NFL entitled to Kneel or Not
to Kneel. My guests are Ravens defensive players Calias Campbell
and Matthew Judon, former NFL tight end Benjamin Watson, and
journalist Steve White's of NFL Network, the first reporter that

(02:36):
Colin Kaepernick talked to about his reasons for protesting during
the national anthem. Back in twenty sixteen, Episode one of
Black and NFL was entitled Shut Up and Play, in
which we heard from Ravens quarterback Robert Griffin the Third
on why more players are kneeling today than in two

(02:57):
sixteen when Kaepernick began the movement. We also heard from
doctor Harry Edwards, a close confidant of Kaepernick's, and Nate Boyer,
a former NFL long snapper and Green Beret, who advised
Kaepernick to kneel instead of sit alone on the bench
during the national anthem. Since kneeling remains such a polarizing act,

(03:18):
we'll take a deeper dive in this episode. You'll hear
why Campbell and Judi both knelt in twenty seventeen in
London after President Trump referred to all players who knelt
as soobs. You'll hear why Watson never knelt despite being
an outspoken fighter for social justice. You'll hear the inside
story on how Wish became the first reporter to speak

(03:41):
with Kaepernick about his protests, and Kaepernick almost never does interviews,
which has strong views on kneeling, yet he doesn't kneel
himself when he's covering games in the press box. We'll
discuss all of this, starting with Steve Wisch, who described
his one on one interview with Kaepernick that a wakened
the world to his protests. As we entered this episode

(04:03):
of Daniel or Not, Tanil White should have been tracking
Kaepernick's social media posts in twenty sixteen and knew that
the young quarterback was finding his voice on social issues.
When White saw Kaepernick sitting during the national anthem at

(04:24):
A forty nine his preseason game, he knew something was up.
Nobody asked Kaepernick about it during his postgame press conference,
so White pulled him aside and got the scoop. It
wasn't a Q and a type form. It was two
cats having a conversation, right, you know. And then when
the tape recorder went off, you know a lot of
the things we discussed about, Steve. I know a lot

(04:45):
of people are gonna say, what's this bi racial guy
from Turlock, California who grew up in a white area,
what's he doing being the guy speaking on this right,
He's like, but I've seen what's happened this summer, and
the way I grew up actually opened my eye to racism.
Because I grew up in a mainly white area with
very few black people. I felt it. I heard conversations

(05:06):
change when he walked into a room with you know,
my parents and their friends, and I grew up the
same way, so there we really were seeing the world
through the same lens. So I think that really helped
me shape the context of everything. But Cliff, I thought
it was very important if you go back and look
at the lead of the original story and not explain
the action, but why he took the action, and that

(05:28):
was to protest police brutality. That was something that was
not picked up on the following days by the media,
but from day one, the lead paragraph of the story
explains why he did this, and the emphasis was not
on what he did. So, how did the message in
your mind get so hijacked to where for years we

(05:52):
just hear these guys are protests in the military, protests
and patriotism. How did I get hijacked so quickly and
so thoroughly, Because that's the first thing that comes to
people's mind when you do something that you know, when
you tread on the stars and bars, Oh, it's an
affront to the military, it's an affront to the people

(06:12):
who sacrificed their lives for our freedoms. I mean, in
any realm. I remember Chris Jackson, my mood, I'll do.
Raouf went do the same thing. Remember the NBA had
an anthem policy. This is back when you and I
recovered the NBA, and he just didn't he didn't look,
he didn't recognize the playing of the national anthem. He

(06:33):
got suspended. So but anytime anybody has burned a flag
or said something negative against the flag, at hey, it's
an affront to the military, and I get it. But
the fact that the media did not take the time
in the moment that was the thing. It was the
moment of American history when black people were being recorded
over and over being shot by bad police officers doing

(06:56):
bad who are getting acquitted over and over, are not
getting charged over and over. The fact that that was
missed was a damn shame because the public is always
going to have its opinion no matter what. You can
tell a story a certain way, and two different people
are going to look at and have two different opinions.
But the fact that so many people in the media
were so hung up on the action and not the

(07:17):
reason or the purpose was really a damn shame would
hurt in that aspect. Also, so few players stood up
and Cap said he didn't ask anybody else to have
his back. This was something he decided to do by himself.
But the fact that so few players who were so
scared of what eventually happened to Cap happening to them,

(07:41):
I think, really hurt his message and his cause and
led to so many people sticking to a narrative for
years before it actually seemed to register. Why and why
that was important. We'll hear more from Steve later on
in this episode. Let's move forward to twenty seventeen, when

(08:02):
the Ravens faced the Jacksonville Jaguars at Wembley Stadium. Two
days earlier, President Trump had ripped into NFL players during
his speech in Alabama. Wouldn't you love to see one
of these NFL owners when somebody disrespects our flag, to say,
get that son of a bitch off the field right
now out, he's fired. He's fired. Players around the league

(08:28):
were furious, and the Ravens and Jacksonville were kicking off
about forty eight hours later at nine am Eastern time
in London, the first game since Trump's comments, would Ravens
and Jaguars players kneel in protest? If so, how many
would kneel and what would be the repercussions? But we

(08:48):
just got our first glimpse of what figures to be
an eye opening day in the NFL. In the first
NFL game since the president's comments, we saw many players
take a knee on both sides line, several other players
locking arms in unity. Please help me welcome Raven's Pro
Bowl defensive lineman Klais Campbell, one of the NFL's most

(09:10):
respected players and the raining water thing in the NFL
man the year. Take us back to twenty seventeen, Klais,
when you took a knee in London while playing for Jacksonville.
By that time, it had already become popular for people
to link kneeling with disrespect for the military. And I
know your late father served in the Vietnam War, So
how much conflict were you going through whether to kneel

(09:31):
or not at that time. I think what it really
came down towards is I never I never saw it
as negative to the flag, negative to the military, or
negative anywhere as possible. I feel like it was only
a protest to create awareness for issues that are going
on in the country that has to be done with oppression,
racial injustice that you know I see every day most

(09:51):
of my people. You hate to see people who pay
their tax as people who go through all the things
that we else goes through to just get the extra
better discrimination that affects her daily well being too much
as given, much as required, and I'm giving this this
platform and these resources and all these these abilities to
help people. So for me, I chose to kneel that

(10:11):
first time because I want to show the guys it's
okay if you want to kneel, if you want to
stand for something or whatever it may be, that that's okay. Now,
I at the time had a different way of trying
to create change in America. I didn't think, Neil, that
was for me. I always respected everybody who did. Knew
and I understood why they're doing it. I just think
it was for me. So that was the original plan.

(10:34):
But the first time I did it though, because a
lot of guys wanted to but they were afraid of
getting cut or will how will affect them? So it
was more and just making sure they understood that I'll
know what you and show you that it's okay if
you want to stand for something right here, I should
have asked a lay as a follow up question to
clarify why he originally felt that kneeling wasn't for him.

(10:56):
I'll do that the next time we talked. But I
think I may understand some of Campbell's original reluctance to kneel,
because I believe it don't matter who you are, kneeling
is still an act that carries stigma. Campbell is a
pillar of the community, the reigning NFL Walter Payton Man
of the Year. He gets things done in the community.

(11:17):
People of all ages and races love Calais, and he
brings people together. Not only is he respected, he's a
commanding presence. His voice is so deep he can make
order in a cheeseburger and fries sound like the Ten Commandments.
But even if you're a black man of Campbell's stature,
some people will still want to dictate how you express

(11:40):
your anger. It's like you could be upset when George
Floyd is murdered, but you can't take a knee. You
could pay Brianna Taylor's name on your spikes, but you
can't take a knee. Not you, Calas. We don't expect
that from you, But I digress. While Collais had decided
that the right thing for a leader to do in

(12:01):
that moment was showing his teammates that it was okay
to neil, the Ravens locker room was searching for its leader.
Linebacker Matthew Judo remembers the Ravens locker room being tense
before the game, with players trying to figure out what
to do in our organization. At that point, I believe
nobody had nil, but I felt like Trump had attacked

(12:25):
like one of our brothers, and we were just kind
of like looking for her answers and guiding. It was
just like some of the older guys talking about it.
We supported Cap and what he was doing right, but
we were just like our looking to win these games.
We was in the fight, but we was behind the scene.

(12:45):
But since you wanted to call us out at this time,
it's no time to actually play the fen. We took
a stance for something, and we've been taking that stance
ever since. So we all took a knee, but it
hasn't been a continue with thing. I know, like players
like Kenny Stills any read. Yeah, they've been They've been

(13:07):
taking knee every game, and it's other players, and you know,
I'm one hundred percent with it if that's what they
want to do. But this year, I've been taking a
knee every game, and I think I'm gonna continue to
do it. I don't ever want to question people for
not taking a knee, but but I think I think
a bigger question that people should be asked. It's like,

(13:28):
what's type of side are you on? Like how do
you feel about these things? And I think I think
a lot of people in the NFL, and a lot
of the players that don't take a knee. I feel
like I feel like everybody that actually has to talk
about this situation are the people that has taken a knee.
I feel like, as reporters, y'all got to start asking

(13:49):
the people that's not taking a knee some of these
questions and just to hear their heart. Well, I took
you down suggestion. There are many viewpoints on nearly. I
talked to Benjamin Watson, a man who was very well
versed and well spoken on issues of racial injustice. He
traveled the world trying to help oppress people, but he

(14:11):
didn't take a knee in London that day, and he
never did after. Let's hear what he remembers about playing
in London that day as a member of the Ravens
who decided not to kneel that time was crazy. We
were obviously out of the country and the last thing
you want to hear when you're out of the country

(14:31):
is your elected leader. Whether VERTI for him or not,
he represents you, calling you as well as others that
are in your locker room. Solb. I remember the time vividly,
and we were the first games to play clearly that
weekend because we were in London, so we were going
to play a few hours earlier. So whatever we decided
to do, we were kind of leading off. And I

(14:53):
think we got the news either late that Friday or
only that Saturday morning over there, and I, like a
other guys, we were really shocked, just to let you
know how we felt. I mean, guys were literally in
tears just thinking about their families back home that we
were away from thinking about the fallout from the president
night stay saying that and how that was being internalized

(15:15):
not only by us but by you know, our wives,
our children, our mothers, and fathers that were back home,
our communities back home, and so there was really just
a really emotional response. And I can remember talking to
Johnny Shelton. Guys were talking to Johnny the chapelain during
our chapel service. Guys were praying, really trying to figure
out what to do, and before the game, nobody knew

(15:38):
what was going to happen. Mister Biscotti came down and
actually had conversations with some of us and said, you know,
whatever guys wanted to do, I support you one hundred percent.
If you want to stand, if you want to kneel,
if you want to jump up with down and do
jumping jack um, I'm going to support you as as players.
And that was very comforting. I think hearing it from him,

(15:58):
from gatar By, from from the Ravens leadership, the days stood,
the tool, all that we were in trying to decide
how to react. Why didn't watching Neil. He gives it
in depth answer. When Colin first knelt, I had told
my Achilles in Baltimore that year and I was unable
to play. I couldn't stand or Neil if I want

(16:20):
to see, and I recalled the reasons why I had
stood up for the national anthem like everybody else had
for most of my career, for fall of my life,
and as I stand for the national anthem, people think
about different things. I've always thought about as I stood.
I thought about my grandfather who worked on a naval base,

(16:41):
but he couldn't use the same bathroom as the prisoners
of war who were from Nazi Germany. He had to
go around the corner because he was black. I thought
about my father being called names when he helped to
integrate schools in North Virginians. I thought about my mother.
I thought about all these people that I'm not even
related to in the struggle. As I stand for the

(17:03):
national anthem, I look at the flag. Some people think
about people that are military. That's fine, whatever you think about,
but I've always stood for their honor. I think about
the City fourt the Massachusetts you followed in the Civil War,
And as I stand there before every football game, which
is I'm saying, you know, I'm standing in your honor,
in the honor of this country and the sacrifices you

(17:24):
made to make this country, and so up until twenty seventeen,
kneeling wasn't really a thing. And so for me, being
an older player at that time and then coming back
I'm playing for several more years, I didn't kneel. In part,
to be quite honest, it's because if I knelt for
police brutality, which I believe there is, if I knelt

(17:46):
former racial equality, which I believe we still deal with,
I didn't see a time when I am in the
foreseeable future where I would ever be able to get up. Wow.
And so for me support any player who decides to
express themselves in kneeling to bring awareness, I love it.

(18:07):
I didn't do it because, like I said, I was,
I was an older player, I'd already been involved with
many things. It wasn't it wasn't my mode of protest.
There are many modes of protests, you know, someone kneeling,
some people standing, Some people write, some people advocate and
raise money, some people speak. You know, they do a
bunch of different things. It's just one mode of it, right.
But I also felt like, you know, if I if

(18:28):
I kneel, then I don't quite know when I can
ever get up. Because as far as we've come, as
much progress as we've made, and you've heard it, you
know that there's still are our issues for sure that
collectively we need to come back. And I don't know
if it's in the horizon. When it wasn't being a
place where I won't kneel, and that day I didn't

(18:51):
as well, because if I hadn't knelt before, if that
hadn't been my my mode of protest before, I was
not going to let the president dictate what I was
gonna do. Although although a lot em me went to say,
you know what you say, you say Nuelers, you know
gotta leave. Well, how about this, I'm gonna kneel, I

(19:12):
think for sure, right, But but I decided that you
know what I'm gonna say, and this is said. We praised,
We held hands with our brothers who were in LA. Again,
you know, anybody could do whatever they wanted to do.
The players who knelt in London faced plenty of heat

(19:33):
from fans who weren't happy. At least the players knew
owners Steve but Shaddy was supporting them. Just minutes after
Ravens players knelt in London, but Shaddy issued this statement, quote,
we recognize our players influence, we respect their demonstration and
support them one hundred percent. All voices need to be heard.

(19:56):
That's democracy in its highest form. End quote. But as
teams around the league heard from their fans, and there
were many calls and emails pouring in, the tone from
some owners began to change. Some owners, most notably Cowboys
owner Jerry Jones, quickly changed their position. First, Jones knelt

(20:17):
with his players for one week in twenty seventeen, but
then he reversed course, saying, quote, we cannot in any
way give the implication that we tolerate disrespecting the flag
end quote. The players made their voices heard with their silent,
active kneeling. The opposition came screaming with their descent. Let's

(20:39):
hear from Klais Campbell again. Now, how much negative blowback
did you get after you? Nelson Jacksonville A bunch from
the outside world in a circle to people who value
their their influence to value their opinions. They were very
encouraging and actually want to be the nile. While before,
I have a lot of a lot of friends and
family who are served. And when you talk to those guys,

(21:02):
you know they're like, yo, man, we fought for the
right we get to have free speech and the ability
to protests. You know, that's the constitutional right. It's a
peaceful runner. That were very encouraging, but the narratives got
switched for forever reason. The narrative became the sucrespeful to
the military when you know, I never sent it that way,
and you know a lot of people do, but they're

(21:22):
not really hearing the message. And that's the thing we
have to We have to start communicating to a point
where I can hear it absolutely. Why did you only
kneel once with the Jags? And do you wish more
players would have knelt for all teams back when Colin
first was kneeling in twenty seventeen and sixteen. Well, we're
stronger numbers, that's for sure. The more people do something,

(21:42):
the easier it is going to be done. I felt
like it would have been more beneficial to have more
people kneeling, you know, early on, to create change. But
I felt like there was another way for me. So
I was trying to do things in the community, you know,
rolling my slaves up and getting dirty. But at the
same time, I've realized now much more how much power
it had. That's something that was you know, was huge.

(22:04):
You know, it's just understanding the influence that Milan would
have in the national narrative of oppression and trying to
make this well a better place. So I wish I
would have kneled more. I wish I'd know from the
beginning and kept Millan because I felt like the conversation
is coming on stronger and now we have a little momentum,
but we could be further along. So many lives that
you know, that are endangering, people who've died in the

(22:26):
last three or four years, that you know, maybe if
we could have got some lost pass from legilation, that
would have made some difference, that might have saved a
few lives. Watching me members of compelling encounter he had
with a Ravens fan outside the under Armored Performance Center
as he was leaving practice the following week. The result

(22:46):
is what happens when two people who disagree make the
effort to communicate honestly. And I remember leaving the facility
one morning couple day got till we got back from London,
and there was a man right they're knowing the miles,
right in front of the sign to the raven facility
and he was planting small American flags right in front

(23:07):
of the sign. He had about a hundred of them
that he was sticking in the ground, just sticking them
in the ground, American flags, American flags. And I saw
him and I pulled over and I got out. Now
you know what he might be thinking seeing me, I thought, right,
I get out of the car. I said, how are

(23:29):
you doing, sir? What are you doing? And he's like,
you know, I'm planning the flags because people in this
building they don't understand how to respect the flag. I said, sir,
you know I'm one of those people in this building,
and I can tell you be on the shout of
a doubt that everyone in that building loved this country.
You know, we want the best for America. And even

(23:50):
the guys that decided to kneel, they love America too.
They want America to be better. Luck we all do.
And then he responded, I have family members that were
in the mid military and even falling revolution. I said,
you know, so that's great. There are guys in that
locker room that have family members that fall in the revolution,
that fall in the military, and absolutely police officers, and

(24:12):
so I respect what you're doing here, but I just
want you to know, sir, that we love America as well.
And he looked at me and he said, thank you,
thanks for saying that, and just that small conversation. I
don't know where he went from there. I ain't us
going home from there, but I do know that that

(24:32):
he had a certain idea about me and about people
like me in that locker room, right, probably had an
idea about him seeing him playing these flags, but being
willing to sit down there and actually talk about the
issues and bring some humanity to the conversation goes a
long way. That's what we're having more of now. That's

(24:54):
what we definitely weren't having then, and that's what we
need more in the future. Just sessions to NIL forces
a player to think about many things, even one is outspoken,
as Judon, I've heard you to talk about you wish
more players and nail fact when Kap was doing it,
do you wish you had been one of those players?
And if you had done it, how do you think

(25:16):
it would have impacted your career if at all? Honestly,
I don't think it would have impacted my career. I
think I would have gotten I think I would have
had less fans, maybe less people that like me. I
feel like if anybody ever is actually around me or
come to like a signing. I do I feel like
they'd be like, Okay, this is the type of person

(25:38):
he is. I don't really know if I if I
wish I would have knailed earlier, probably, but it was
like not too many guys around here doing it. And
I don't want to say I wanted to be a
follower or nothing, but I was. I was not like
I was now. You know, I was kind of a
low man on Total Bold at that time, and I

(26:01):
was like just getting my feet wet in the NFL
media didn't really want to talk to me. So maybe
I would have skated by, or maybe it would have
just been like Pews staying for the Ravens, and then
maybe I would have been gone. I honestly don't know.
I do think that it's a lot of guys around

(26:21):
this organization, like upstairs that didn't treat us like that,
they understood where we was coming from. They actually helping
us out a lot, And I wish I would have
asked more questions just when Catt was taking the knee
to those guys in twenty twenty, Juda and Campbell and

(26:47):
others who kneel are not nearly as a lone as
they were in twenty seventeen. Players all over the league
are doing it, and more people seem to understand why
they are doing it. This summer, Saints quarterback Drew Brees
sounded like he was still stuck in twenty seventeen when
he made these comments about players who kneel. I will

(27:08):
never agree with anybody disrespecting the flag of the United
States of America or our country. Even some of his
own teammates were offended. And Raven's Hall of Famer and
New Orleans native Ed Reid responded the breeze as only
read can I see Drew Brees trying to do his
part in keeping black folk down? You're a straight circle

(27:30):
for that, Drew Brees. Now you think all these young
people out here protesting man. In less than twenty four hours,
Brees was apologizing for those remarks, blasted for trying to
connect kneeling with disrespecting the military. I know there's not
much that I can say that would make things any
better right now, but I just want you to see

(27:51):
my lines. How sorry I am the accountments that I
made yesterday. I know that it hurt many people. I
wish I would have laid out what was on my
heart in regards to the George Floyd murther a load
our breed, the years and years of social injustice, police brutality,

(28:12):
and the need for so much reform and change in
regards to legislation and so many other things to bring
equality to our black communities. I am sorry, and I
will do better and I will be part of the solution.
Ben Watson spoke to Breeze, his former teammate after his
controversial comments. Here's Watson's take on it. The thing is,

(28:36):
this is nothing new if people remember and recall and
Drew said the very same thing way back in the beginning,
you know, several years ago. It just came afresh, I
think this year and in speaking with him, you know,
I don't need to recap everything he said to me,
because he said it well himself, but he admitted that
he should have been more sensitive in the way he spoke.

(28:57):
The reaction was what it was, and reaction understandable. Look
at the people closest to him, the guys in the
locker room that are with him everything, his friends around
the league. The fact that they said, you know what,
this guy admitted he messed up he meant it, and
the fact that when he looks at the flight, he
stands in honor of the people in this family, and

(29:19):
if he wants the people to do the same thing,
that that is a ballot doing and it's totally fine
for him to steal that way, But he says he
missed out on this other part of it, and this
other side of it, which he should have been more
aware of. People care about what you say. They also
cared about how you respond when you send someone else,

(29:40):
what do you meant to or not? And the way
he responded, I think speaks for himself. The brutal video
tape of George Floyd being murdered was a reckoning for
many people in America, forcing them to come to grips
with the issue of police brutality that Kaepernick Boley confronted
four years Early this June, I was shocked when I

(30:03):
turned on my laptop and saw a videotape lead It's
by NFL commission Roger Goodell, in which he said this
we the National Football League, admit we were wrong for
not listening to NFL players earlier and encourage all to
speak out and peacefully protests. I listened to those words,
turned off my laptop and walked into my bedroom just

(30:26):
to make sure I wasn't in bed dreaming. Then I
returned to my laptop and listened to the commissioner again,
just to make sure I heard him right the first time.
Let me make this clear, I'm not shot that the
commissioners said black lives matter, but I was shot to
hear him admit the league was wrong for not listening

(30:46):
to players earlier. That was a total one eighty I
didn't see coming. Here's Ben Watson again. Look when commission
made his video, I was as surprised that everybody else
was with him personally. I think him for it, because
whether it came too late or too early, look, whatever

(31:07):
the fact it came, when good can come from whatever
the motive is behind it. I think the Commissioner has
tried to do some great things. I think that he's
been late on several things as well. But I do
think that the league has a great opportunity. This summer
moment twenty twenty has not only been an awakening culturally,

(31:29):
but I think within the league it has been. And
so now see organizations topped the bottom trying to find
the best ways to not only support players and get
the players of points, but also to let communities know
the cities that they're in that they care and when
they asked about them, trying to be on the right
side of this movement whatever, who cares. The fact that

(31:51):
it's happening is important and great. Indeed, things have definitely
changed for NFL players since Kaepernick first started kneeling. So
let's bring back Steve White and ask him where he
thinks we are in twenty twenty. It seems clear that
the atmosphere has changed regarding the public's view towards players

(32:13):
who kneel. They seem to be more open to the idea.
Do you think that's because we saw what we saw
with George Floyd and now more people understand why black
athletes want to kneel as a former protest It's an
interesting question because I'm gonna answer it like this. In
terms of more people understanding, yes, I do think more

(32:34):
people understand, But in terms of the overall aspect of it.
With my feeling is this, when you talk about the public,
I think it's more of a younger audience, so to speak.
Who's been about it, who's been in the streets all
summer for Brianna Taylor and a mott Arbery and George Floyd.
It's been young people, right. So four years ago when

(32:54):
Colin Kaepernick started this, the people who are in the
streets today might have been fourteen, thirteen, twelve years old
four years ago, so they might not have had the
energy or understood what's going on. So now they've grown up. Right,
four years ago, the voices we heard complaining and arguing
and pushing back were people who, Cliff, honestly, are you're

(33:17):
my age right there? They're middle aged but mainly white
males who were pushing back. Who your longtime season ticket
holders who've been taking their kids to Bills games or
Packers games or whatever's game for generations. And so I
think the change we're saying and when it comes to
the public is more of a generational shift than all

(33:39):
of a sudden people having open hearts. And the reason
I want to really emphasize that part is think back
to twenty sixteen when Capp did this. What's different not
much in society. We had a presidential election was very
heated and polarized with Hillary and Trump. You had Alton's

(34:00):
sterling Filando cast still get shot on recorded videotape on
armed black people shot by police. It was the same.
It was the same stuff that happened this year. And
that's why I'm saying the public shift has been more
to a generation of young people who saw that four

(34:20):
years ago and they were young but didn't know what
to think. See it again on replay this year and
they're like, oh, no, this is wrong. I think that's
more of why we're seeing the change in tenor and
all of a sudden, a bunch of people having bleeding hearts.
In my opinion, Steve raises an interesting point that doesn't
get enough attention. There's so much speculation about the NFL

(34:42):
losing fans because players are kneeling and speaking out on
social issues. What about the money the NFL stands to
gain if it appeals to a younger generation that clearly
cares about social issues. As an NFL insider, Weis recognizes
that the league's pivot on social justice could also be

(35:03):
related to finances. More young people are rallying around social justice,
and the league wants to reach a younger audience. According
to a Yahoo News you Gov pole done in July,
after Roger Goodell made his black Lives Matter video. Fifty
two percent of Americans answer you yes to the question

(35:24):
is it okay for NFL players than nil during the
national anthems to protest killings of African Americans. When that
question was asked in twenty eighteen, only thirty five percent
agreed with kneeling to protest. Among American's age eighteen to
twenty nine, sixty eight percent say they strongly support kneeling,

(35:46):
while only thirty six percent of those over sixty five
years old support kneeling. So, if you're an NFL owner,
which fans would you rather appeal to the sixty eight
percent of eighteen to twenty nine year old who sup
players kneeling, the sixty eight percent who have the potential
to be your future season ticket holders, or the over

(36:07):
sixty five year olds the thirty six percent who don't
support players kneeling. Speaking of shifts in perspective, we talked
about what Jerry Jones's stance was against kneeling in twenty seventeen.
This September, don Terry Poe became the first Cowboys player
to kneel during the national anthem. As for his reaction,

(36:28):
the next day, Jones took a measured tone. Quote our players,
I thought they gave it the sensitivity. Jones said, they
showed respect to pose decision there. They did show a
sensitivity to our fans as a team. All in all,
I thought our team was very real and very genuine
in the way we approached it. End quote. Let's bring

(36:51):
back Steve Weiss to talk more about where the league
is now on the issue of kneeling. How much do
you think teams are still wrestling with the dilemma of
worry about fans being turned off by players kneeling and
trying to deal or attract this younger crowd who spoke
about who are more socially progressive. I think we're seeing

(37:13):
one more owners. Look at what NASCAR did, believe it
or not, like whoa Nascar the ultimate like open bastion
of the of the Confederacy said bump that we're gonna
we're gonna support Bubba Wallace, We're gonna support some of
the Black Lives Matter movement, And of course that alienated
a significant amount of their fan base, but you know what,

(37:34):
it perked up the antennas of younger people, people who
may have been fringed NASCAR fans to tune in a
little bit. Look, Cliff, you and I both know when
it comes to NFL ownership and whatever political donations, the
movements of what they wanted, it all goes with the money.
And if all of a sudden, it's eighteen to thirty

(37:55):
five year old demographic that they've had a hard time
getting into is five following some of these social movements,
empathetic causes things like that, then maybe let's change our
ways and see if we can get that audience in there.
It may alienate some of these people who've been sitting
in our stands for thirty years, but you know what,

(38:16):
those people's kids might be part of this as well.
Teams are beginning to welcome more fans back into stadiums
around the league. What's going to be the reaction when
fans at M ANDT Bank Stadium see Ravens players kneeling

(38:37):
and have a chance to voice their approval or disapproval.
How are fans going to react at other venues around
the league with support with outrage? Who with apathy? We're
going to find out and it's going to be interesting.
Steve has some thoughts about where the issue of kneeling
is headed. Okay, now the first week the network show

(38:58):
the Lift every Voice, seeing the Black National Anthem and
then the playing of the national anthem, Ladies and gentlemen,
please join us in a moment of silence dedicated to
the ongoing fight for equality in our country. For you,

(39:20):
I think, what's interesting, and it's just such an unanswered question.
How would it be if we had, you know, we
didn't have this pandemic which would helped us keep our
eye on some of these social issues, and we had
full stadiums. Right, would some of these owners still be
feeling and taking some of the steps they're taking in
terms of embracing some of these social justice causes just
two years after they implemented a national anthem policy cause? Right?

(39:45):
I mean, do you think if we had people in
the stands, we'd be hearing more booing? Yep? Right, yes, absolutely,
yes I do. Klais Campbell loves that more people understand
his reasons for kneeling in twenty twenty than they did
in two thousand and sevens, but the murder of Floyd
and the lack of charges against police officers, and the

(40:05):
death of Brianna Taylor have left Campbell feeling that much
work needs to be done. On August thirty first, the
Ravens signed a letter to Senator Mitch McConnell urging him
to bring the George Floyd Justice and Policing Act of
twenty twenty to the Senate floor for a vote. Dear
Majority Leader McConnell, Dear Majority Leader McConnell, The undersigned to

(40:28):
Baltimore Ravens players and staff right to voice our support
for the Justice and Policing Act, a bill introduced in
the wake of the police involve killings of George Floyd,
Brianna Taylor, and others in the black community who have
lost their lives at the hands of law enforcement. However,
no vote has been taken in the Senate, and President

(40:49):
Trump is opposed to the bill, which faces an uphill battle.
I wanted to kind of put an actual finite point
why I'm living and so you know, I want the
George Floyd Justice pushing that past, and it's really just
brought out to vote. You know, I think would be
crucial because he creates our ability to hold puts opposers accountable.

(41:09):
Judah continues to kneel because he still sees a country
get that needs to do a better job dealing with
racism and social injustice, systemic racism. We see that happening
every day, and me making it out being a millionaire
or a success story doesn't mean that I don't have
friends in those communities, or doesn't mean that I still

(41:31):
don't have family and those communities, those type of red
line communities that still chasing their tail just to pay
off some bills. Me my one success story represents because
let's say, twenty five hundred other black young men that
will be born in my situation, having to eat school lunch,

(41:53):
having to wear the same clothes, same shoes all year around,
from the first day of school to last at this school.
Somebody asked you to breathe about it. You heard how
he responded and where his heart was. You can tell
the type of people that don't really understand. Benjamin Watson
isn't alone in his belief that you can fight for

(42:13):
social justice without kneeling. Steve White doesn't kneel in the
press box when he covers games, although he strongly supports
individuals having the right to kneel. I stand for the
national anthem right. I have certain beliefs at the same time,
I one hun support those who protest during the national anthem,

(42:35):
And so I think there are people all across the
world like, oh, you're not standing. You know, you're a sucker,
you're not down with the card. I don't think that's happening,
at least in locker rooms. We hear about that brotherhood.
And if you're asking someone to support you for kneeling,
how can you all of a sudden not support them
for not kneeling. And I and I think that as

(42:56):
a mutual understanding in that locker room brotherhood, you do you,
but we're all going to have conversations which they're having
now that can help us be us. And I think
that's a big shift that we've seen in NFL locker
rooms and probably probably locker rooms all throughout professional sports
and collegiate sports. You brought it up, Steve expand on

(43:19):
the reasons why you do stand. It's just something I've
done for my life, and not that I'm immune to change,
but it is just something I believe in. It's probably
something traditional. But don't think when I'm standing, I am
not thinking about my mother and father who down in Hampton,

(43:41):
Virginia and in Roanoke, Virginia could not go to schools
with white people. My father, who served in the Air Force,
didn't have to flee for his life when he was
on military basis down in Texas. Okay, these are things
I think about, so my standing, Yes, it is an
honor to me celebrating our country, but it is also

(44:05):
me paying homage to people in my family and other
people's families of color who've done things and made sacrifices
for what they did for this country to be what
it's been. When I hear the stories my mother, who
looks white, who grew up out of Rono, Virginia, getting
treated like craft by black and white people. Right. When

(44:27):
you know, my father who served this country had to
go through some of the things that he had to know,
he wasn't in combat, he was a non wartime but
that doesn't mean when he was in military basis in
the South he didn't get treated like craft. Right. You know,
when I think of my grandfather, who was the first
black magistrate down in Hampton, Virginia, some of the stuff

(44:47):
he had to deal with when people coming into his
courtroom not respecting him. Right. So, these are all of
the things. So when I stand, it is not just
saying I'm doing this because this is the way it's
always been done. It's me respecting everything people have done
for this country, from all walks of life to making

(45:08):
what it is. I don't kneel in the press box either, Steve,
and let me be honest about why I don't. It's
not because I'm against kneeling during the anthem. It's because
I don't enjoy being the center of attention, and if
I'm the lone reporter kneeling in the press box, then
I'd most certainly be drawing attention to myself. However, the

(45:32):
older I get, I find myself more willing to leave
my comfort zone. I can't ask others to speak out
on social injustice and racism if I'm not willing to
do so myself. As a result, I'm doing this black
in the NFL podcast. Call this my version of kneeling.

(45:54):
I always like to leave you with something to think about,
But instead of hearing from me this time, I want
to hear this answer from former Texas Congressman Beta o'roared
when asked what he thinks about players kneeling. Several people
have called this in my attention, and I think O'Rourke's
comments back in twenty eighteen were spot on. Reasonable people

(46:15):
can disagree on this issue, let's begin there, and it
makes them no less American to come down on a
different conclusion on this issue. Right, you can feel as
a young man does, you can feel as I do.
You're every bit as American all the same. But I'm
reminded somebody mentioned reading the Taylor Branch book you did

(46:35):
Parting the Waters and the King years, and when you
read that book and find out what doctor King and
this non violent, peaceful movement to secure better because they
didn't get full civil rights for their fellow Americans, the
challenges that they faced. Those who died in Philadelphia, Mississippi,

(46:58):
for the crime of trying to be a man, trying
to be a woman in this country. The young girls
who died in the church bombing, those who were beaten
within an inch of their life crossing the Edmund Pettis
Bridge in Selma, Alabama with John Lewis, those who were
punched in the face, spat upon dragged out by their

(47:18):
collar at the Woolworth lunch counter for sitting with white
people at the same lunch counter in the same country
where their fathers may have bled the same blood on
the battlefields of Omaha Beach or Okinawa, or anywhere that
anyone ever served this country. The freedoms that we have

(47:40):
were purchased not just by those in uniform, and they
definitely were, but also by those who took their lives
into their hands riding those greyhound buses, the freedom writers
in the Deep South in the nineteen sixties who knew
full well that they would be arrested, and they were
serving time in the Missus s be State Penitentiary, Rosa Parks,

(48:03):
getting from the back of the bus to the front
of the bus, peaceful, nonviolent protests, including taking a knee
at a football game to point out that black men, unarmed,
black teenagers unarmed, and black children unarmed are being killed
at a frightening level right now, including by members of

(48:24):
law enforcement, without accountability and without justice. And this problem,
as grave as it is, is not going to fix itself.
And they're frustrated, frankly with people like me and those
in positions of public trust and power who have been
unable to resolve this or bring justice for what has
been done and to stop it from continuing to happen

(48:46):
in this country. And so non violently, peacefully while the
eyes of this country are watching these games, they take
a knee to bring our attention and our focus to
this problem, to ensure that we fix it. That is
why they are doing it. And I can think of
nothing more American than to peacefully stand up for taking
me for your rights anytime. Anyway, Well, thank you very

(49:10):
much for asking the Q, Thanks for listening to this
episode of Black in the NFL, and please join us
for episode three, entitled Player Politics. Our guests will include
Ravens left tackle Ronnie Stanley and former Ravens wide receiver

(49:32):
Torrey Smith. This podcast was produced by Blue Wire. Norah
Everhard produced and edited the show. Ryan Mink, Michelle Andres
Peter Moses and Jonathan Yales were executive producers and additional
thanks to Jerry Madelon of Madeline Media for his performance consulting.

(49:54):
Tune into the Ravens Podcast Network for two other podcasts,
The Lounge host by Garrett Downing and Ryan Meek and
What Happened to That Guy hosted by John Isenberg. Thanks
for listening, and until we meet again, stay safe and
be blessed.