Episode 4: Players and Police

Host Clifton Brown discusses police brutality and reform with Anquan Boldin, Mark Ingram II, Flint Deputy Deon Smith, former Baltimore Police Detective Darren Sanders and Maryland State Delegate Gabriel Acevero.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Thankfully. I've never had a gun pointed at me by
a police officer. However, I've had my car search twice
and I've been handcuffed once during traffic stops. The first
time I had my car search, I was pulled over
for failure to stop completely at a blinking yellow light. Okay,

(00:23):
maybe I didn't stop completely, but I slowed down to
about three miles per hour max. There wasn't another car
in sight. It was around one am, and I was
in the car with three friends, all black, after covering
an NBA game that night and going to a Friday's
restaurant afterward. I was taking one of my friends back

(00:46):
to his apartment when I saw the flashing lights behind me.
I had a feeling this wasn't going to be routine.
Not at one am, not driving while black with three
other brothers in the car. Less than five minutes later,
we're surrounded by four police cars, including one with the

(01:06):
police dog. After the license of registration requests, we're all
asked to get out of the car so the police
could search it. When one of my friends starts to protests,
I told him to shut up, which he still pissed
about to this day. As they're conducting the search, patting
us down and finding nothing incriminating. I locked eyes with

(01:31):
one black police officer in the crowd. I stared at
him for a few seconds, then extended my arms outward
as if to ask, what's up with this? He lowered
his head. Then another officer approached me. He returns my

(01:52):
driver's license, but then asked, do you have another form
of identification other than your driver his license? I don't
know why he asked me that, and I don't know
what would have happened if I had said no. But
I reached into my computer bag, which had already been
sniffed by dogs, and handed him my New York Times

(02:16):
identification card. His eyes got big. He did a double take,
looking down at the ID, then looking back at me,
almost like the face on the ID and my face
couldn't possibly match. Now, this police officer wants to make

(02:36):
small talk. What do you think about the Knicks this season?
He asked. I smiled, but I couldn't help myself. I
think my wife's going to be really worried if she
wakes up and I'm still not home, I said, can
we go? No ticket was issued, and after about thirty

(02:58):
nervous minutes we were finally on our way to this day.
I believe I was mistreated by police officers that night,
but I know it could have turned out a lot worse.
I remained calm, partly because I was scared, and partly
because I kept hearing my mother's voice in my head.

(03:22):
I can handle a phone call from jail, she used
to tell me. I'm afraid of getting a phone call
from the morgue. Welcome to Black in the NFL. I'm
your host, Clifton Brown. Watching the video of George Floyd's murder,

(03:45):
the shooting of Jacob Blake, and hearing about Brianna Taylor's
murder sickened me, but it didn't surprise me. That's a
sad admission to make, but it's true. I've had excellent
counters with police officers, but I've also had a few
bad ones, and I know many people who had. Police

(04:07):
misconduct has been an issue for black people ever since
I've been on the planet, and it spans well before
that too, and I believe more people than ever are
beginning to realize it. Today's guests are ravens running back
mark ingram Flint police officer Dion Smith, who was a

(04:31):
close friend of Mark Ingram's, Ravens vice president of security
and former Baltimore police officer Darren Sanders, and Maryland House
Delicate and political activists Gabriel Alsivero. During this podcast, we'll
discuss police brutality, the relationship between police and the black community,

(04:51):
police training, and police funding. There's a distrust of the
police dating back to the beginning of our history. They
began as slave catchers. There's disproportion of police violence against
black men still today, Yet there are many fine police
officers performing a difficult and dangerous job that plays an

(05:13):
important role in our society. This podcast is called Black
in the NFL. So why are we doing an episode
called Players and Police because these things impact so many people,
including current and former Ravens players, like former Ravens wide
receiver Torry Smith. And So I'm sitting in a car

(05:36):
and all of a sudden, there's like four cop cards
that come up, and I'm like, what's going on? And
so he walks up and he was like, Hey, do
you mindway search a vehicle? I called my mom on
the phone, but I called her just to talk to her,
Like what should I do? He was like, don't let
him search a card. She's like, why do they need

(05:56):
to search a car? I was like no, He's like,
all right, I'm gonna have to ask you that by
the vehicle. I had my phone on speaker phone, but
I was by my will him. So I moved. I
was like what, and he pulled his gun out. And
so when he pulled his gun out, you know, obviously
what's the reaction going to be from his partner that
just came. They reacted, and so I'm like, all right,

(06:19):
you can search his damn car. Like I'm getting out,
Like you know, I'll get out. And I told my mom,
I'm like if they pulled a gun out on me,
and she was like, tell me where you are, I'm
gonna come. So I was like whatever, I just got
out of the car, and you know, it's embarrassing. And
so they went through my car, searched everything, and they
were like where you can go. You're fine, We're just

(06:41):
trying to search as many cards as we can since
nine to eleven, and I was like, that doesn't make
any sense. Then there's former Ravens wide receiver and Clain Bolden,
my cousin Corey Jones, who was a drummer in the band.
He was on his way home from a gig and
his car broke down on the side of the road.
Long story short, he was killed by a cock. By day,

(07:05):
Corey Jones was a housing inspector for the city of
Delray Beach. By night, he was a drummer for his
reggae band Future Presidents. He was coming home from a
gig that night when his car broke down at about
one thirty am. He called for a tow truck and

(07:25):
was speaking with roadside assistance when an unmarked white van
suddenly approached going the wrong way up an I ninety
five on ramp and stopped diagoning in front of him.
A man in a T shirt and blue Jenis approached.
Bolder recalled the scene in a sixty second commercial sponsored

(07:46):
by the Player's Coalition that air during last year's Super Bowl. Yeah,
I'll never forget that night. I was still playing with
the forty nine US and my wife walks up after
the game. He told him that my cousin Corey had
been killed. Corey broke down on the side of the
road and a plain closed police officer pulled up. Then
this guy starts screaming all you hear from there's three

(08:09):
shots who today. He would give you his shirt. He
would be called just to keep your wall. This officer
was in plain clothes. Corey had no way of knowing
who he was. There's just some things that are bigger
than football, and I felt like starting the player's coalition

(08:30):
and affect and change in this country was one of
those things. We focused on police community relations, education and
economic advancement and criminal justice reformed. Had it not been
for the work that we do, Corey's death would have
been in vain. The best way to inspire change is
to bid the officer newman. Roger claimed he identified himself

(08:53):
as a police officer. A recording of the call with
roadside assistance proved he didn't. Roger tried to claim immunity
from prosecution under Florida stay in your Ground law. He
was denied. Jones had a licensed gun that he bought
days earlier. It was found forty one yards away from

(09:16):
his body and was never fired. Roger's weapon was emptied,
including the bullet that went through part of Jones's heart
and both lungs as he tried to flee. I think
at one point we had all got numbed to it.
You know, you hear about offices killing on armed black men,

(09:38):
and it became so regular. So we got numbed to it.
And although we probably were compassionate about it, you were
numbed to it because it was another story, Here we
go again, here we go again, or whatever. But then
it hits my front door, and it's something that you
have to deal with. It's not something that you can
turn the TV off and then haven't go away. Now

(10:02):
it's somebody that you're missing, Somebody that you were raised with,
Somebody that you love is no longer here because of
the neglect of somebody that was supposed to protect and serve.
On April twenty fifth, twenty nineteen, the same day that
the Ravens selected Marquis Brown in the first round in
NFL Draft, Roger was sentenced to twenty five years in prison.

(10:27):
Jones's parents celebrated justice that day, but they had lost
a son and Bolden had lost his cousin forever. Just
to see what my family went through, it was. It
was devastating. It was tough, but we finally got our
day in court, and after three and a half years,

(10:48):
the officer was convicted. It was a It was I thought,
a moment of justice, but it also was a sobering
moment for me because when the officer was convicted, we
learned that he was the first officer in the state
of Florida convicted for an unduty shooting in the last
thirty years. And I thought about how many shootings had

(11:10):
happened in the state of Florida, offers to involved in
the last thirty years, and you only got one guy
that was convicted. And I thought about how many how
many families not only didn't get, you know, their day
in court, but didn't get justice. And for me, you know,
I didn't want that to happen to any other family nowhere.

(11:32):
So you know, the work that we're doing is not
only in Florida, but it's it's nationwide. It's still happening
all the time. For me, it's not about bashing cops.
It's not about anything like that, because I'll be the
first to tell you you know, if something happens, those
are the people that you call. Those are the people
that are sworn to protect and serve us as citizens.

(11:53):
But a lot of time sometimes that doesn't happen. And
I think that's very unfortunate because if we're gonna be
at our best, you know, the community and the police
have to work hand in hand, and a lot of
times you don't see that happen. Bolden in his family
got justice, but they are the exception. Justice for Brianna

(12:16):
Taylor has been a plea around the country since she
was shot and killed in her own apartment by playing
closed police officer in March. In August, the Ravens wrote
a letter to Senator Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, who was
Taylor's Kentucky representative, urging him to bring the George Floyd
Justice and Policing Act of twenty twenty to the Senate

(12:39):
floor for a vote. He did not do so. I
spoke to Ravens outside linebacker Matthew Judin for this podcast
two days after it was announced that murder chargers would
not be brought against the police officers involved, and Taylor's
death is devastating, disgusting and down right wrong. We all everybody,

(13:03):
I feel like everybody sees that it's wrong. But that's
what we've been fighting for since we've been pating clear Americans.
You know, we've been fighting for justice, and now that
it is on a larger scale and social media and
everybody just sees and everybody can speak about it. Now
everybody knows it is wrong and we need to fix it.

(13:24):
But I don't know how we get it. Change the
policies that the police are protected. They got to get
some of those laws out of there. I feel like
the no knock warrant and then also them not being
held accountable for like gunshot going off. If that's what
you want to have in place, you have to train

(13:45):
the officers to not shoot people. You know, it was
a dirty job when they try to cover it up.
They tried to cover up with like multiple things. In
this case with Brianna Taylor, it wasn't like they could
pay her crim little paths on her because she was
a lawed by the citizen and she was at her

(14:06):
hold sleep. Before there was Brianna Taylor in Louisville, George
Floyd in Minneapolis, or Jacob Blake in Wisconsin, there was
twenty five year old Freddie Gray in Baltimore. In twenty fifteen.
Gray was arrested after running from police, then suffered neck

(14:29):
and spine injuries in a Baltimore police vehicle. He died
four days later, leading to massive protests in Baltimore, a violent,
chaotic end last night to what had been largely peaceful
yet vocal protests throughout the day. In Baltimore, businesses were vandalized, looted,

(14:51):
police cars damaged, at least six police officers slightly injured
in clashes. When it was over, at least thirty four
arrest twelve hundred police deployed an all sum in riot
gear to restore calm. The three other police officers charged

(15:11):
in Gray's death were acquitted after standing trial, while charges
against three other officers were eventually dropped. Our first guest,
Gabriel Alsavero, represents Maryland's thirty ninth District and was arrested
while protesting Gray's murder. Alsavero is a politician and social

(15:31):
activist who remains committed to holding police accountable for inappropriate actions.
Let's go back to the roots of policing to try
to understand its role in American society and how its
relationship with the black community started. Alsavera believes many of
the problems with policing today can be traced to how

(15:53):
policing began in this country. When we talk about racialized policing,
and policing in America. We must examine not only the
origins of law enforcement in the United States, but how
that has transformed into the institutions that we see today.

(16:14):
And the reality of it is. Law enforcement in the
United States has its origins enslave patrols and in white
supremacy and white nationalism and vigilante justice. And when we
talk about racism in law enforcement, it's not only important

(16:36):
for us to acknowledge the inception of law enforcement and
the kind of a violence that we've seen throughout history
exacted upon black and brown people in this country by
law enforcement, but we must also recognize the implications that
has had and still has for policing in the Ued

(17:00):
States today. So, for instance, we see police departments and
law enforcement agencies in some jurisdictions have placed officers on
leave after finding out that they, in essence, were affiliated
with white nationalist groups outside of work. We see the

(17:20):
city of Philadelphia recently took action to place a number
of officers on leaves after they had discovered that these
officers were involved with not just white nationalist groups, but
had been members for quite some time. And so what
we see today is a racialized policing in America that

(17:43):
not only is continuing to produce the disproportionate outcomes that
we're seeing, but is further dividing communities and law enforcement
who are charged with the responsibility of protecting and serving
and in administering public safety. But we the community are

(18:04):
responsible not just for oversight and control at least in theory,
but that's not how it is in practice. But we
as the community in theory, should have oversight, should have
control over the way public safeties administered in our communities.

(18:30):
Mark Ingram grew up in Flint, Michigan, a city it
is consistently ranked as one of the most dangerous in
the United States by multiple sources. That's one of many
issues in Flint, which hasn't had cleaning water since twenty fourteen,
and yet just two months ago they broke around on

(18:51):
a new twenty million dollars juvenile detention center. The Genesee
Valley Regional Center is a blue color tale. A lot
of people who work hard, trying to do the best
to you know, be successful in their lives, and you know,
there's a lot of crime, it's a lot of violence.
So obviously, you know, the police were needed It's just

(19:11):
like you always just like aware from him too, Like
you know, they was everywhere, so you know, you didn't
want to have like, you know, problems or you wanted
them to be there for the crime and all that.
But you know, getting pulled over sometimes or you know,
different stories that you hear from you know, cousins, uncles, friends, family,

(19:31):
You were kind of aware and didn't want to be
around police all the time. You know, kind of nervous
when you see police behind you or if you get
pulled over. You just kind of, you know, had nervous
feelings just based off stories that you've heard. One of
Mark's best friends is Dion Smith, now a Genesee County
Sheriff's deputy based in Flint. Ingram and Smith bonded on

(19:53):
the first day they met in high school. I saw
him in the hallway one day, man, and just walking
and you know, he ended do some stuff to me.
He's like, hey, I'm Mark immediate man. We kicked it
off and ever since that day, man, we've been typed.
Smith is doing a great job changing negative perceptions of
police officers in Flint. But when Mark first found out
that Smith was planning to become a cop, a black

(20:16):
cop in flint Ingram was surprised. Man, it was crazy, Like,
you know, my dad's been incarcerated, locked up, so I've
had my share of runnings with the police, you know,
trying to come to my house or you know and
bla blase. So when he told him he's gonna be
the police, I'm like, damn, you're gonna be the fan man,
you know what I mean, like you you know what

(20:38):
it is. And then but yeah, but he's just a guy,
you know, he wants to make a positive impact, you know,
in his community and wants to change the community for
the better. And I think police in the community and
how he could reach out to youth and how he
could reach out to, you know, those who you know
needed the most. He's the guy for the job. So
I'm truly happy to see him doing great things being

(21:01):
a police officer and being successful being a police officer.
Mark had no idea that his buddy Dion would become
a police officer when they were in high school, but
Dion knew. He always knew that being a cop was
meant for him. I remember, distinctly to this day, met
him our final game, looking at each other from the

(21:23):
opposite side of the field he was on defensive and
we were just looking at each other like just you know,
kind of shaking our heads and like, man, this is
like the last game that we're going to be playing
with each other. Because I didn't have any aspirations of
going on to plan at the next level. You know,
I always wanted to be a police officer ever since
I was a young boy, helping people and seeing people smiling,

(21:43):
doing what I can, you know, just to be a
beacon of light. We're here from Deputy Smith later in
the podcast and how he's making a difference in Flint.
But first let's talk about why we have this problem
with police brutality in America. Now, you've lived in Flint,
played college ball and Alabama, played in New Orleans, playing

(22:03):
in Baltimore, no matter where you've been, there's been problems
between police in the community, especially in the black community.
Why do you think that is? I think one reason
is I remember when I was growing up, man, I
feel like the police officers who was you know, police
in our communities were people who lived there. So like

(22:24):
when I saw an officer at my school, or I
saw an officer at my football game, or I saw
an officer in my practice, like or if they saw
me like out like doing something with my friends, Like
they weren't automatically like trying to target us. They were
like really trying to like help us, teach us. Or
if they saw us doing something wrong, they'd be like,
when get your butt out of here, I'll tell your mom,
I'll tell your dad, like you know what I mean,

(22:45):
Like they're holding you accountable and saying, like you know,
they weren't just trying to target you and like you know,
pin you down and cuff you and take you in,
like they were really trying to help you become a
better man, you know what I mean. Sometimes that didn't
always work for every student, but for a lot of
students it did, and for a lot of people in
the community it did. And I think we're today's a
lot of these officers policing these these communities, they're not

(23:08):
from this They're not they're not living in that community,
and they're not they're not from that community. Don't have family,
they don't have friends in that community, so they don't
they don't take the same type of pride in that
aspect of reaching out to the young guy who who
is on the corner doing something wrong or or or
reaching out to a kid that you know, stole something,
you know what I mean, trying to help him learn
from that, help him grow from that, and help him

(23:30):
and break that cycle, you know what I mean. I
think that's one of the big things. Man. A lot
of these under privilege, and you know, these black communities,
a lot of the officers policing them are from there.
They're not from that community, They're not living in that community,
so it doesn't really matter to them, you know, what
happens in that community. And I think that's one thing
that's really happening that I've been noticing. Our next guests,

(23:54):
Former Baltimore Police detective and current Ravens Vice President of
Security Darren Sanders, believe it's in connecting with the community.
When he was a member of Baltimore's police from nineteen
eighty seven until he retired in two thousand and four
and joined the Ravens, Darrib believe some of the issues
revolve around how an officer approaches a job and the

(24:15):
people they take an oath to protect and serve. A
lot of people think law enforcement is all negative and
ugly and bad, but it's not. And I guess it
just depends on your mentality when you're dealing with the community.
And I just never looked at it is always so
negative and ugly and bad, even when you work in
some of these communities and some of these neighborhoods where
the crime is rampant and the negativity can be bad.

(24:39):
But it's all about your mindset. Cops are just regular
people too, they're just in a different profession. In society,
you've got good people, you've got bad people, you've got
corrupt people, evil people. It's the same in law enforcement
because we're picking from society in general. So you're gonna
have good cops and bad cops, and you're gonna have

(25:00):
the same issues in any company with people, because people
are people. You hope you pick the cream of the crop.
Sometimes you get it right, a lot of times you
get it wrong, and the times you get it wrong
just happen to be more exposed when you're a cop,
when you have the ability to take someone's life or
take someone's freedom, just fully or unjustfully. And I think

(25:23):
the other part of it, which goes unnoticed a lot
of times, and this is a twofold problem I think
in society in general, there is a natural fear of
black men, perpetuated by the media sometimes with negative coverage
and the stereotypes that go along with that as well.
So there are some cops who probably very suddenly deal

(25:44):
with people other than who they look like unless they're working.
So you have a biased thought about that person based
on what because if if you're not dealing with black people,
you're getting your impression of them from TV or the
new you know whatever, or someone's talking to you about it. All,
you're dealing with all the negativity that you deal within
the community that you're working on, and maybe it compounds

(26:07):
itself over time. All Right. Interviewed mark Ingram a second
for this episode. He made I thought, what an interesting point,
saying he believes that so many police officers to day
they don't have a strong connection with the neighborhoods that
they're serving. They don't know anybody neighborhood, don't live there,
not connected, and he believes that that contributed sometimes is

(26:31):
to disconnect in these crisis situations. You would agree with that.
I would. When I became a cop, you could literally
walk patrol for hours and mingle with people, but the
nine one one call system is so overpopulated that costs
don't have as much time to get out and do

(26:52):
that because they're going from call to call to call
right and then they're getting backed up, and then you've
got time constraints from getting paper work done, so cops
don't necessarily have the time or make the time to
get out of actually mingle with the community. And it's
black and white. You know, you had to get out
in the community and deal with the people, not just

(27:13):
always when you got a call, So you had to
go out and talk to them and sit on a
step with them, play ball with them. You know. I
used to love playing a city game here called Skelly.
We play Skelly in the street and it was kind
of cool because I could take my police car and
block off the streets of cars couldn't come by, so
we could be on the hands and knees and in

(27:34):
the streets playing Skelly. And that would get such rave
reviews from some of the parents in the community because
they would see you as a regular person. And I
think that's the other thing cops. If you're only dealing
with the community from a law enforcement response perspective, they
only see you as a thought. They only see you

(27:54):
when something is wrong. So every time you came around
or get out your car, people may start to walk away.
He's finally because what's he coming to do? Now? Who's
he coming to lock? Or who's he coming to hit
on or whatever? And that's something that I kept at
the back of my mind was get out and just
be a regular person. I'm a people person in general,
so I'm like, go mingle with the people. Go go
go let them know you're not you know, I'm from Baltimore.

(28:16):
Yeah I'm block. I'm a cop, but I'm from Baltimore.
I know. Its like in these communities. I grew up
in the communities myself, So I used to work in
the Reservoir Hill community when I first came out of
in Patrol, and there was a community meeting every week,
and I literally would do my best to attend the
community meeting to hear some of the complaints from the

(28:37):
community members. And it was at the Mayor It was
a mayor station in the two thousand block of Park Avenue.
I don't even know if it's still there. It's called
the Mayor Station. It served as a two point little
spot for me, it was a hot out. I could
ride up on the top of the hill and write
my reports and be out of everybody's way and be
out of everybody's eyesight. But they had meetings health there also,

(28:58):
so I would go up there and sit and talk
to the commun and a lot of times, you know,
I would catch fly because I was the only comp
in there, so I was the one that could point
the fingers out for access of others. But my soldiers
were broad enough I could take it. So I would
sit there and I would listen. I would engage with
the community and just show them that, you know, all

(29:18):
cops aren't bad. Being a police officer is an extremely
difficult job and an important job. I have great respect
for the majority of police officers who do their job well,
but I believe more needs to be done to hold
bad police officers accountable and to avoid situations that lead

(29:42):
to tragic events like the death of George Floyd. According
to the website Mapping Police violence dot org Derek Chauvin,
the police officers who kneeled on George Floyd's neck had
eighteen complaints filed against him before he kneel on Floyd.

(30:02):
The police officer who fairly shot twelve year old tamiro
Rights in twenty fourteen had previously resigned from another police
department after it had deemed him unfit to serve. Why
does the killing and mistreatment of unarmed black people by
police officers continued? I've had some difficult conversations with people

(30:25):
when addressing this question. We started out talking about police brutality,
but somehow the discussion shifts to black on black crime
as a way to somehow defend police officers who have
used violent force against unarmed black people. So let's look
at some data. Since twenty fifteen, the Washington Post has

(30:47):
logged every fatal shooting by an on duty police officer
in the United States. According to the Post, although half
the people shot and killed by police are white, black
people are shot at a disproportionate rate, being killed by
police at more than twice the rate of white Americans.

(31:09):
According to the FBI's homicide data, in twenty eighteen, of
black homicide victims were killed by black people, but eighty
one of white homicide victims were killed by white people.
Even though I never hear the phrase white on a
white crime. Meanwhile, many studies show the economics play a

(31:34):
major role in where violent crimes occur. The statistics say
our focus needs to be more on the link between
poverty and crime, not race and crime. Now, let's explore
the possible solutions. The idea of defunding the police gained

(32:01):
momentum after recent protests, and at least thirteen major cities
as of mid August have followed through with budget cuts.
Baltimore is one of those cities, as a city council
voted in June to eliminate twenty two million dollars in
police spending for the upcoming fiscal year. The concept also

(32:23):
drew backlash from people who feel police need more resources,
not fewer. State Delegate Asservero's goal is to improve more
of the communities that the police are protecting, making it
less likely they will be confronted with potentially violent situations.
Every level of government, at the federal, state, and local level,

(32:44):
we need to be examining the funding that has been
provided for law enforcement over the years on what we
need to do differently as it relates to these budgets
to ensure that we are pursuing data proven solutions right,
the data proven solutions that will keep us safe we

(33:08):
know what the solution to keeping us safe is. When
we invest in education, when we invest in healthcare, when
we invest in transportation, jobs programs, when we invest in
the health of communities, it means that we are all
safer as a result. And so when we say defund

(33:28):
the police, what we are in essence doing is setting
up a budgetary discussion. When I say fund or defund,
I am specifically discusting budgets. So let's take a look
at the budget, and let's take a look at the numbers.
As a country, the United States spends around one hundred

(33:48):
and fifteen billion dollars annually on law enforcement, more than
any other country spends on its military, safe for China.
As a state, Maryland spends over two billion dollars on
law enforcement in our correctional system. I live in Montgomery County.
As a county, we spend around three hundred million on

(34:11):
our police department, not to include the Sheriff's department. Baltimore City,
where you know the mighty Ravens rep right, I mean, really,
you rep the entire state, but Baltimore City a third
of its budget is allocated to BPD. And when we

(34:33):
look at all this money, these millions and billions of
dollars that we spend on law enforcement that continue to
increase year after year, and then we look at the
kind of a disproportionate outcomes, and when we look at
the fact that a number of communities do not feel safe,
and a number of communities do not trust law enforcement,

(34:54):
and a number of police do not view law enforcement
positively in communities, we have to shift not only the narrative,
but funding to ensure that we're investing in areas that
we have not invested in, such as housing such as
social workers, counselors, behavioral specialists, such as transportation, such as

(35:20):
economic development such as our schools and a youth jobs program.
Those are the things that we should be focusing on
and reallocating funds too, but we have instead invested in
this police and CARCEO state for decades that has only
led to millions and billions of dollars going to law

(35:44):
enforcement agencies. Incarceration is at its highest, our jails and
our prisons are bloated, and our communities do not feel
any more safe, rather over policed, and view law enforcement
is occupying forces. And that is something that we need

(36:04):
to shift because it is very dangerous if we do not.
And so when we say defund the police, we're asking
people to look at the numbers and what we invest
and the return on that investment. And when we look
at the return on the investment, it just doesn't add up.
Another avenue in the Golden stemp police brutality is police

(36:27):
reform and accountability, a strategy that has been used for
quite some time and continues to evolve. Body cameras became
standard issue in many big city departments a few years ago,
and now there are new proposals. The Ravens have written
a letter to Senator Mitch McConnell supporting the George Floyd

(36:48):
Justice and Policing Act, which would address a wide range
of policies and issues regarding police practices and accountability. State
Delegate Asavero is the author of Anton's Law, law named
after Antime Black, a ninety year old unarmed black man
who died in police custody in twenty eighteen in Greensborough, Maryland.

(37:11):
It focuses on reforming certain areas of Maryland law, such
as the Maryland Public Information Act, to increase transparency and accountability.
Antime's Law would also establish statewide use of force standards
to address the disproportunate use of force against people of
color by law enforcement. No law enforcement officers should have

(37:33):
these kind of procedural protections that prevent oversight, an accountability
and justice. We're working to establish a statewide use of
force standards because it needs to declare that life and
the preservation of life must be paramount, including for law enforcement.
I applaud the Ravens for supporting the Justice and Policing Act.

(37:57):
What I would encourage called the Ravens who also do
is to focus their advocacy and their efforts at the
state level. As I mentioned earlier, states are in the
driver's seat of the issue of police violence. States determine
what is permissible policing. And every state that we've seen

(38:18):
an instance of police brutality where there have been a
lack of transparency, a lack of oversight and accountability and justice,
are states that have followed the lead of Maryland and
passed some version of a law enforcement Officers Bill of Rights.
And you can see the pattern here in terms of
impeding in accountability. And what I would encourage the Ravens

(38:42):
to do is to not only support those efforts in Maryland,
and at the state level. But we also amplify the
voices of the victims, the families, and the communities that
have been hood and are continuing to hood as a
result of police brutality. And I'll give a perfect example
the case of Anton Black. He was a nineteen year

(39:05):
old college athlete that was full of life and had
such a promising future and was an expectant father, and
his life was snuffed out by a former officer who
had a terrible service record in Delaware that many people
were aware of. And because he was not prevented from

(39:30):
becoming a law enforcement officer in Maryland, Anton Black is
no longer here today. So when we talk about Freddy
Gray in Baltimore City, when we talk about Core and
Gains in Baltimore County, when we talk about Robert White
and Finan Burhea in my county in Montgomery County, when
we talk about victims like Damonte Ward Blake and Prince

(39:53):
George's County and Anton Black on the Eastern Shore, we
owe it to them to fight for the solutions and
the policy sees that will bring an end to police violence.
And that is what we must do. I'm pushing for
Anton's Law because I think it is not only important
for us to remember this young man, but it is
also important for us to listen to what the concern

(40:16):
of the community was. When this young man was killed,
the community and his family were asking for answers that
were not being provided. There was no transparency, There was
no kind of an accountability and oversight after he was killed.
And Anton's law, in essence, provides that kind of a

(40:37):
transparency so that communities can then know what is going on, right,
so that victims and their families can know what is
going on. And that's the essence of Anton's Law. It's
reforming the Maryland Public Information Act to ensure that complainants
not only have information, but that we're making police misconduct

(40:58):
records public and available. Darren Sanders says it's imperative for
the relationship between the black community and police to improve,
not only to protect citizens, but to prevent good cops
from having the reputation of their profession further damaged. How
much do you think incidents like George Floyd's murder and

(41:22):
others we've seen have damaged the reputation of police officers
in general. Oh, it definitely has you hear about the
police brutality issues or unarmed black men being killed and
you have and they ask you because you're a black man,
but what do you think about this? How do you
feel about that? Because you're a black man, but you
were a cop? What do you think? Right? You probably

(41:44):
saw it, what the cops because you were a cop.
And I'm like, no, I don't. I've never told it.
That been blue line mentality and I never will. I
don't believe and siding with people just because we're on
the same team. I think you and this sounds corn
and I thought about this a lot when it's come
to a couple other situations in the city. You should

(42:04):
hear the sound of truth and justice. That's all. That's
all cops should chase as truth and justice in the
sales corny, But that's it. You just gotta go where
the facts leaders, as far as the truth and let
the chips fall where they may. That's just who I
am as a person. You know, you just want to
help people. And you know, somebody asked me the other day,

(42:25):
what did the law enforcement oath mean to you when
you when you swore in. I said, I'm gonna be
honest with you, bro. The only thing I remember from
swaring Inn was, man, do I really want to do
this in Baltimore City. I wanted to be a Maryland
State trooper at the time, but they had hiring issues
of minorities, so I didn't I didn't get on. I
don't think I remember is to protect and serve. You know,

(42:48):
it's in the sales Corny, I said, I don't remember
all the other mumbo jumble that I swore too, but
I do remember the protect and serve. And I think
that's something that cops have to realize that we are
servants of the community and to protect them when need be,
or protect fellow officers would need be. And I think
that's something that we don't have to get back to,
is understanding what our mission is. Sure now you've been

(43:12):
obviously through police training, there's been a lot of talk
about police training in general. Right as a former cop,
do you have suggestions regarding police training that you would
make changes that you think would help reduce some of
the incidents that we're seeing the result in unarmed men
being murdered now again, because I think some of the

(43:36):
implicit biases. When I went through the academy, there was
no training on interacting, or do you have any biases
towards blocks, or whites or gays or whatever. I think
they need to put some of that training into the
program so you can get some type of evaluation on
what people's mentality is towards other people. Yeah, like sensitivity,

(44:00):
you got to you got to. And I think something
else that is huge and law enforcement is there are
no mental health evaluations for law enforcement after you get hired,
unless you have a shooting situation or an ugly situation
that might cause you some stress. But other than that,
there are no mental health evaluations that you go through.

(44:22):
And I think cops need to have annual mental health
evaluations to make sure that they are good. It may
be additional sensitivity training, because I do believe some cops
get jaded to the communities they work in because they
see the negativity so much that everything becomes everybody is bad,
so they treat everybody the same way, in the negative way.

(44:45):
So maybe they need to have some more evaluations of
the officers to make sure mentally they are healthy and
that they are not subjecting these community people to negative
thoughts that they've had over the years of working in
these areas. So you're saying in a high stress you
have like being a police officer. If you once you

(45:07):
once you get in and if you don't have a
shooting incident, you could be a guy or a person
developing some mental health issues. Yeah, no one would check
you on it before an incident happened. No, you have
no evaluations throughout your career unless something happens. Right. And
I know guys that were on the job who were

(45:27):
on the edge a lot, you know, you know, you know,
alcoholism is big and police officers, you know, late night,
standing up, not getting enough sleep and all that goes
against you having sound judgment when you need to be
shot or when you don't, or maybe you don't need
to be so aggressive. And I think you need to
be a value. I think they need to have more
evaluation of officers throughout the course of their careers. I

(45:51):
think it should be annually. Mark Ingram points to his
close friend Dion Smith as someone doing his part to
change negative perceptions of police officers in Flint, Michigan. Smith
drew national attention when he was filmed interacting with protesters

(46:12):
in Flint who were on the street following Floyd's murder
as a black officer. What I saw that day, I
was disgusted as an officer period. I was disgusted. Justice
needs to be served as a police officer, you guys
look to us as the ones that comes in your
communities and keeps you safe. Your great question, why are

(46:35):
you afraid because of the things that are being depicted
in the things that you see on the media and
the things that bad officers are doing. Right, I believe
that there's more good I do. It's people out there
that want to do what we do, that want to
I encourage you to stand up and come do it.
The young men that looked like me, I encourage you

(46:56):
to come into police are communities. That's the way out again.
Stay out again. The young man that looked like me,
I need you to come in and the coup police
or communities and don't base it off of fear. I
need that community to uplift those you mane. I need
you to uplift them so they can become something that

(47:18):
are great. We're all gifted. Everyone that was born, we're
all gifted. We all got something to give off. We
don't let fear stop us and the policy. We can't
let fear dictate on how we do things and how
we handle people. I mean, it just shows you the
type of character that this guy has. I mean, that's
my brother. I love him to death. For him to
stand up in a moment like that, in a hostile

(47:40):
moment like that where people are on edge and the
world on edge, and it's like everybody against police officers,
and he stood up there with the fiction and saying like, um,
this is unaccessible. He said so many gems. And I
watched that thing, man, and it almost brought tears in
my eyes, because, like I said, like we grew up together. Man,
that's my brother. For him to stand up in front
of protesters and to bring a community together and to

(48:02):
have police officers and citizens and the entire community walk
hand to hand and peaceful protesting in my in the
city where I grew up with Flint, Michigan. I thought
that was a true example of how we should be
protesting and how community and how officers should come together
to make our communities better, to make those community relationships
better between law enforcement and citizens, and for them to

(48:24):
do that together peacefully, it was a true example how
we should be protesting and going about this thing. I
got Mark Luther King Malcolm X vibes the way he
was talking people, you know what I mean. So I
love my guy to death. And it just shows you that,
you know, he's meant for that. He has a bigger
calling than just being a police officer. His calling is
to change people, change the community, change lives. And you know,

(48:47):
we need more law enforcement with the mindset like him.
Here's how Smith we calls that day May twenty fifth,
the day that George Floyd you know, was murdered. Man
completely changed the way that policing has done. And we'll
look now into the future. Um. That speech was done
seven days after that, which was made thirty first. I

(49:07):
wanted to be on that platform for young men and
women of colored to to to look at and say, man,
I can do it, because I saw Dion do it,
and I just prepared myself for the opportunity. I was
talking to a couple of the protesters. They were, you know,
saying you know, we appreciate you, thank you, thank you,
thank you, thank you for being out here, and and

(49:29):
it just you know, it touched me. And when I
was walking and came to that dead he and a
guy that I that I've known, um from school, growing up.
He was one of the leaders of the protests, and
he gave me like that eye contact. You kind of
like knew like it was coming, like okay, So I

(49:53):
kind of just, you know, came up off off the
cuff at first. That was a little a little fear,
you can say, because of the environment. You know, you
know what you say, you don't want to offend anyone.
But I said to myself, I said, the potential impact
that this could possibly have far out seded the risk

(50:16):
at that moment of time for me. And when I spoke,
I just spoke from my heart. I spoke with compassion,
you know, I spoke with love. I spoke from a
space where a young kid growing up in the urban community.
When you see things like that being done, you say
to yourself, what can I do to help? And being

(50:41):
a police officer is the greatest job in America because
you got the ability to impact somebody's life every single day,
because we come into contact with people every single day
and having that ability to do that, and it's so humbling,
it's so incurred urging. And then the times that we're

(51:02):
living in today, we need more of it. We need
more of our our police officers out there that are
fighting hard and not saying that you know, some guys aren't,
but the guys that you know get you. You got
your feet to the ground. You're fighting so hard. You
need to. You need to come out and elect your
community know that you care about them and you stand

(51:22):
with them, and you want to be with them, and
you're gonna you're gonna be the solution to the change.
At least you're gonna do the best you can to
be the solution to the change, so that day will
always be near And dear to my heart, George Floyd's
murder was absolutely horrible. That was just me coming from
the heart, Cliff and speaking with passion. Definitely showed Now

(51:45):
in your opinion, is police brutality a problem in America?
And it is disproportionately a problem for Black Americans? And
if so, why is that we got to understand that
the community is that we are policing. When you police
in the African American communities, you gotta be able to

(52:06):
come in and you got to be able to build reports.
But the people in these communities, you have to learn
these people in these communities. You have to understand where
these people in these communities are coming from. When you
make decisions and choices offer that then and you're not
educating yourself on the conditions of the people in the community,

(52:28):
then you make bad decisions. When I graduated from police academy,
there was a creed that we live by is that
I will enforce the law courteously, inappropriately, without fear or favor,
malice or ill will never employ unnecessarily force or violence,
and never accepting gratuities. So we gotta understand when we're

(52:49):
in our in these communities, we have to look at
people and say, what is it that I can do
to help well, how can I be a better police
officer based off of this situation to help this situation
go right. When we do those things, people will be
more forthcoming to us and want to talk to us

(53:10):
more when we will get away from this narrative of
you know, this police brutalities and things of that nature.
So it just comes down the cliffman, just learning these
people in your communities, implementing yourself to these people in
these communities and showing them that you really care and
you love them, and I think that they will show
the same thing back to you as well. And that's
educating yourself, as I said previously, educating yourself on the communities,

(53:34):
learning the norms of these communities, so that you can
be a rail rounded police officer. And when they see you,
they say, they know what type of police officer you are,
They know what your standards and your values are as
a police officer, and they will they will, they will
add here to you more that will want to come
and talk to you more, that we wanted to listen
to you more. And you will find that to be

(53:56):
more effective for you when you get out here, you
start policing. When I put on my uniform in every
single day and ask the good Man allowed me to learn,
let me learn something news that I didn't know from
the previous days. Let me let me impact somebody's life
by the way that we interact, you know. And those
are the things that's going to help push and bridge

(54:17):
that gap between community and law enforcement to make a
stronger and to make a tiger. We heard Dion Smith's
vision of what policing in this country should be, but
in two sixteen, Colin kaepern had clearly stated that police

(54:38):
violence against unarmed black people was one of the main
reasons why he was kneeling and not enough people listened,
and Qui Boulden's cousin should still be alive. Black players
in the NFL are still terribly worried that one of
their friends or relatives could become the next George Floyd.

(55:01):
The brave police officers that protect and service doing their
jobs well should be appreciated and supported, but the ones
who are needlessly violent should be held accountable and weed
it out. We should be having real conversations about the
future of policing and the investments in the communities they

(55:22):
are tasked with serving and protecting. I got lucky that
night when my friends and I were surrounded by police
cars and police dogs. Things didn't escalate further. But sadly,
too many other brothers and sisters haven't been so lucky
and often overlooked line of doctor Martin Luther King's I

(55:45):
Have a Dream speech in nineteen sixty three is this quote.
Almost sixty years later, we all saw the murder of
George Floyd in broad daylight. The unspeakable harbors are still

(56:10):
taking place, and that's why NFL players are speaking out.
Black in the NFL is powered by Blue Wire. The
show is produced and edited by Noah Eberhard an executive

(56:31):
produced by Michelle Andres, Ryan Mink, John Yales, and Peter Moses.
Tun to the Ravens Podcast Network for two other podcasts,
The Lounge hosted by Garrett Downy and Ryan Mink and
What Happened to That Guy? Hosted by John Isenberg. Thanks

(56:53):
so all my guests, and join us for the next
episode of Black in the NFL. Until and be blessed,
and thanks for listening. H