Episode 6: The NFL's Diversity Problem: GMs & Executives

Former Cardinals GM Rod Graves, former Colts GM Bill Polian, Browns GM Andrew Berry, NFL Vice President Business Operations + Strategy Natara Holloway and NFL Executive Vice President of Football Operations Troy Vincent join the podcast.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I don't know how many times people have asked me,
do you know of any job openings. I'm looking for
a job, can you help me get hired. I've been
as sports journalist for forty years, so naturally I've developed
some contacts in the business. Yet very often I can't
help a worthy candidate as much as I'd like to,

(00:20):
because I've never had the authority to hire anyone. Sure,
I've put in a good word for people. I've been
used as a reference. Sometimes a boss has asked me
what I thought about a certain job candidate, but I've
never had the finals say, or even close to the
final say, on whether or not someone was hired. I've

(00:43):
never lost sleep over that. But here's what I've lost
some sleepover. I've worked for four newspapers, one national magazine,
a television network, and now an NFL franchise. That's seven
different organizations. Not once has a person who made the
ultimate decision to hire me been a black person. Maybe

(01:06):
that shouldn't bother me, but it does because I don't
think it's a coincidence. I believe it's often more difficult
for a black person to become the ultimate decision maker
in an organization. Just like I believe it's often harder
for a woman to rise to the top levels of management.
During candid conversations with white friends, particularly those over forty

(01:28):
years old, I've asked them to imagine this scenario. Imagine
how you would feel if every time in your life
did you interview it for a job, a black person
was sitting on the opposite side of the desk making
the final decision about you. I mean every time, and
usually it was a black person who had never met you.

(01:52):
A black person who wants the interview ended would ask
other black colleagues whether they should hire you, a quality
fied white candidate, over the other qualified black candidates they
were considering. Would you be cool with that? Would you
always feel that you were getting an equal opportunity to

(02:12):
land a job? If you can honestly answer yes, that's fine.
But if that scenario is making you think even just
a little bit about the importance of diversity at upper
levels of management, then I encourage you to listen to
this podcast, Welcome to Black in the NFL. I'm your host,

(02:37):
Clifton Brown. This is episode six entitled the NFL's Diversity
Problem Upper Management. My guests are Rod Graves, executive director
of the Fritz Powder Alliance, and former Arizona Cardinals general manager,
Hall of Fame general manager Bill Polian, who was an

(02:58):
executive in the league for more in twenty five years
with three different teams, and the Terror Holloway, the NFL's
vice president of Business Operations and Strategy, who is studying
and strategizing the league's hiring policies regarding diversity as one
of its highest ranking minority and female executives. We'll also
here from Cleveland Browns General manager Andrew Berry and the

(03:21):
NFL's executive vice president of Football Operations, Troy Vincent. In
hiring the power alise with the final decision makers and
in the NFL, very few of those final decision makers
are black. In the NFL's one hundred and first season,
seventy percent of the players are black, but there are

(03:42):
no black owners. There is just one black team president,
Jason Wright of the Washington Football Team, who was just
hired in August. There are just two black general managers,
Andrew Barrier the Browns and Chris Greer of the Miami Dolphins.
Since Osik Newson, the Ravens made history by becoming the
league's first black general manager in two thousand and two,

(04:05):
Diversity has remained stagnant at the executive level of the
league's thirty two teams. Newsom is one of the greatest
general managers in league history, a Hall of Famer who
built two Super Bowl winning teams with the Ravens. The
only other black general management to win a Super Bowl
is Jerry Reese, who won two with the New York
Giants in two thousand and seven and two thousand and eleven.

(04:28):
Yet Reese has been out of the league since two
thousand and seventeen, when the Giants fired him and Newson
retired as GM after the two and eighteen season. Now
we're down to just two black general managers. Why didn't
the success of Newsoman Reese lead to more opportunities for
minority executives. Let's welcome Rod Graves to the podcast, who

(04:52):
was the first and only black general manager of the
Arizona Cardinals from two thousand and two through two thousand
and twelve. Graves also built a team to reach the
Super Bowl in two thousand and eight, the only Super
Bowl appearance in Cardinals history, but Graves was fired in
two twelve and other than a brief stint as a
New York Jets interim general manager in two and fourteen.

(05:15):
He has never gotten another opportunity to run a team.
In two nineteen, Graves became executive director of the Fritz
Poler Alliance, whose mission is the champion diversity throughout the NFL.
I heard an interview where you spoke about mental and
social barriers that still seem to prevent black candidates from

(05:36):
rising to positions of power. Can you talk a little
bit about those mental and social barriers? I mean, I thought,
I remember you mentioning black people can be used for
more than just muscle, So I think the way that
you phrase it, I can you just talk about that
a little bit. Well. I still think that we rustled today,
not only in professional football, but across the court for

(05:58):
an America with the idea that we're not equipped to
operate significant areas of business, which is completely false. And
in order to debunk that kind of attitude, we have
to see more Jason Rights in plays and Jonathan Bean
and coaches like Mike Tomlin and Bryan Flores, and general

(06:21):
managers like Ozzie Newsom and so forth. The problem is
we don't get enough of those guys in place to
demonstrate our worthiness and our capability. It's unfortunate, but you know,
of course we have made progress. I mean, of course,
you remember we all remember at times when we felt
like black quarterbacks weren't able to control the game, weren't

(06:44):
able to participate from that position. There are all the
positions on the field, middle linebacker who makes often makes plays,
or people in the secondary to make cause. You know,
those were often positions that were health to white counterparts.
And I just feel like there is a bit more
open mindedness, but we still have to tackle the issues

(07:08):
that work against us in terms of attitudes. And then
I believe that we deal with a level of favoritism,
you know, the good old board network where you know,
guys take care of their own and you know, we're
still dealing with those issues because we're not necessarily accepted
in the clubs and we don't get the same level

(07:29):
of support across the board. And I'm speaking in terms
of corporate American not just football. Now. You got a
long run with the Cardinals as GM, they made it
to a Super Bowl. Have a return since you left.
Giants won two super Bowls with Jerry Rees's general manager,
a black general manager who has not add another opportunity.

(07:52):
When you see stuff like that, does it make you
feel that, I don't know, maybe black gms or black
I think there's maybe aren't getting still getting opportunities for
second chances like it should be. And do you feel
that that's something else that needs to be focused on?
But no question, And it does bother me, not so

(08:14):
much from a personal standpoint, but I know Jerry rees
very well. There's no reason in the world why Jerry
Reese should be sitting at home and on the sideline.
I know Jim calledwell a very competent and highly successful coach,
and yet he was out of football this past year.

(08:35):
You know, there's no reason for other than a reluctance
to give opportunities that should be given to these men
and women of color. And it does bother me. But
again that's the reason why putting. I'm passionate about the
work that I'm doing, and hopefully we can change our
attitudes and give them our opportunities for people like Jerry

(08:57):
and Jim. Now do you think that success that Andrew
Berry's having, the Brown's having their first winning season in
years with a black general manager, The success the Dolphins
are having Ray Bryer black general manager, Brian floor Is
a black coach, is going to be something that spurs

(09:19):
maybe owners thinking more broadly about minority candidates during the
next hiring cycle. Well, Clifford, let's just say, you know,
let's hope, as we've often seen with the league, that
it continues its reputation as a copycat lead. I'm hoping
that it works in this case. But just like in

(09:41):
the case of Jonathan Dean and Jason Wright, I'm hoping
that that kind of success certainly opens eyes that men
and women of color are capable of running organizations and
bringing success. I know Andrew Berry closely as a friend.

(10:02):
He's been around for a while. He is, you know,
well equipped, if you will, for that role and that
kind of leadership. And he was given the opportunity to
come back to the organization and has had an outstanding
first year. And let's just hope it continues. But I
do believe teams are looking and Chris Greer and Brian Flores.

(10:23):
You know, Chris has been around for a long time,
as his dad was involved in the NFL for many
many years. Brian has certainly come from a pedigree of
success from New England and so forth. These these guys
bring strong credentials to the table. I'm not surprised by
their success, and there are others out there who are

(10:44):
equally capable of providing the same measure of success. And
that's really what we're trying to emphasize. The ownership. NFL
owners belong to an exclusive club. They've been highly successful
in business and they have the right to hire who
wherever they choose. But if the NFL's diversity problems at
the highest team levels head coach, general management, team president

(11:07):
are going to change, it's going to have to come
from the owners doing the hiring. Now we've heard NFL owners,
the League Office Commission Goodell talk about inclus a diversity
at executive level before what can be done in the
next few years to make sure that it's that it
really happens this time among executives, GM's presidents and not

(11:31):
just being lip servers as we move forward, I don't
think we're really focused heavily in the right areas. And
when I say that, Cousin, we have demonstrated over the
years a propensity to deal with those things. On the
process side of the lecture, the League really has done

(11:53):
an outstanding job of focusing on things like the Rooney Rule.
It focuses on process and proving the flow of information
to owners and all the other things that you've a
credit toward being in a position toward making better decision.
What we have not done is focused enough on the

(12:16):
ownership side of the ledger, that side where decisions are made.
That again, that has to be a business argument in place.
I also believe that we have to find leadership on
the ownership side that's really willing to stand up and
promote this argument that diversity is good for all of us,

(12:39):
that it's the right thing to do. That we owe
it to our fans, and we owe it to the
people who work with us to promote opportunities across the board.
We have heard the Commission a step up and speak
to these issues, much to his credit. But what I'm
advocating is a voice from the ownership side, someone who's
willing to carry the banner, such as Dan Rooney did

(13:04):
when he was alive. We don't have that kind of
leadership today. And then I think the last piece which
will eventually come, I think is accountability, and that accountability
has to be stressed by our players, by our fans,
and our sponsores a click. And I believe at some

(13:25):
point this conversation we're having today about social justice is
going to eventually shift to social responsibility. In other words,
there's going to be a magnification on the things that
the league and the clubs are actually doing, in other words,

(13:46):
how are you being accountable to this topic? And people
are going to have to prove and show what they're
doing in order to maintain the support from the people
that spend money with them. At the conclusion of two
sixteen rod there were seven black nflgms now this sea
and there are only two. What in your view has

(14:08):
caused that number of minority gms to decrease dramatically. I
think at the heart of the issue is that the
NFL has not ever had a really vested, long term
plan for diversity. I think we experience these ups and
downs in terms of the numbers because there's been really

(14:30):
an absence of a commitment to diversity. And quite frankly,
I point to the absence of a true business argument
for diversity, and I think we're left to the whims
of owners and there has obviously not been a commitment
for the long term with respect to diversity of leadership. Now,

(14:50):
when you say business commitment, can you expand on that
a little bit? What do you mean by that? Sure? I,
you know, I think there has to be incredible business argument,
And you've got to keep in mind the audience, and
that is the NFL owners, and they are certainly, is
my experience, will suggest, motivated by financial terms. And I

(15:16):
think that what we have not seen is an argument
that embraces diversity as being good for the game, both
financially and in terms of appeal. And so from a
financial standpoint, we've yet to establish on a whiteboard, if
you will, that by having diverse numbers of leadership, that

(15:38):
there's an argument that it's more appealing to fans, that
it is more appealing to sponsors, that by incorporating diverse
ideas and diverse input, that we have a chance to
come out with better decisions for the league as a whole,
not just for teams, but for league as a whole.

(16:00):
And I think it represents an opportunity for us to
be more cognizant and aware of the people that spend
money with us, their feelings, their thoughts, and overall, I
just think it creates a better package for the game. Yeah,
to me, that's very interesting. Round that's something Frankly, I

(16:21):
don't hear a lot of people talking about all the time,
and it kind of makes me think about other situations where,
you know, sometimes it seems to me it's perceived that
things become more diverse, that it will turn people off
more than it will draw people to the product and
make more money. But you seem to be arguing that

(16:44):
there needs to be more of a push to make
owners realize that not only it will diversity be good
for the people who are included, but also be good
for their business. Absolutely, absolutely, and question I'm a believer
that the game belongs to everyone, that it is not

(17:05):
just for the privilege, it's not just for a handful.
That if we can be represented as people of color
for seventy percent of what takes place on the field
in terms of players, why can't we elevate to a
status of leadership and demonstrate that we can make business decisions,

(17:27):
that we can participate in the vision of the league.
And I think when you bring all of those ideas
to the table to mean we increase the opportunities and
the probability for success on a long term basis. My

(17:48):
next guess is the Terror Holloway, the NFL's vice president
of Business Operations and Strategy, who has been with the
league for fifteen seasons. The NFL is big business. Way
has a business background. She is a CPA, a magnum
coom law graduate from the University of Houston who has
served in the league's audit department. She continues to do

(18:10):
extensive studies on the league's revenue and over the last year,
the league's commitment to more diversity has fallen. Under her umbrella,
Holloway is trying to build the argument that Graves talked
about that making more diverse hirings is better for your pockets.
I'm a business person by background, and so you look

(18:31):
at the numbers and the thousand, the numbers follow any business.
They'll tell you if you have a more diverse board,
if you have a more diverseity in your leadership, you're
going to make more profits and things of that nature.
But for us, I think it's a little bit harder
to dive into those direct ties to revenue and things
of that nature. It's an obvious kind of thing, right,
but I think that when you start to look at

(18:54):
when you have a diverse team, that translates to better organization.
The clubs are all trying to get to that final
championship and that trope, lift up that trophy. When you
have a more diverse mindset, a more diverse perspective, you
are more likely to have a more successful team. And
so proving that out for people is what we're doing

(19:14):
right now. Right like when you're looking at the success
of other people, whether that's two coaches in a Super
Bowl or whether that's you know, the success of a
new coach and a GM who showing the name is
having success on the field. Now, when you can point
to those things that say when you're looking at more
diverse with women, with other ethnicities, with other skill sets,

(19:34):
with other backgrounds, and that's going to lead to success,
everyone wants to lift up that trophy. So that's why
diversity is important. And I'm a living testimony to diversity.
I've never carried a ball. I played flag football with
that counsel we like to say it counsel, And that's
why we pushed girls blag all the time because it
is meaningful for those of us who play that. But

(19:56):
it's one of those things where if everybody had to
play football, or if everybody had to be a certain
type of person to work at the National Football League,
the ideas and the revenue that I've generated would have
never been to the table. Right. So if you look
at the people that the NFL has hired and promoted
and moved on inside of our building, those are the
success stories that we have to tell. When I first

(20:16):
got to the league, there were no African American females
over the director position. I became the first African American
female vice president at the league office. And now we
have executive vice presidents and senior vice president and that's
what that's where we need to get to. When we
talk about club executives and when we talk about gems,
are we there? Absolutely not. I'm extremely passionate because I

(20:38):
am a living testament to why you need diversity so
that people can bring different perspectives to the table. It
makes you a better organization, hands down, hands down proven
every time the NFL has two black general managers and
some black front office success, but not met executives at

(21:00):
that level. What steps would you like to see the
league take to make sure it has a more diverse
pool of upper management candidates to choose from this offseason. Sure,
so I think it really goes along the line of
continuing to do what we've started in the last two years.
We have actually started with our coaching ranks. As I'm

(21:22):
sure you're familiar with, taking a strategic viewpoint of how
do we change the game? You know, everyone can identify
the problem, but to actually address the challenge is a
totally different thing. And so we have put in a
number of steps, a number of different initiatives to address
the coaching challenge. And now we're extracolating that against our

(21:45):
other positions, whether it's GM and their c suite. But
people always forget the ownership ranks. So we've extracolated that
across all levels. And I have a strategy background, and
one of the things that we really have tried to
say is, Okay, this is our challenge, but what are
we really doing Because we can make you have the
best interview and become an executive and yeah, we've got

(22:08):
one win. But to have long sustainable change, you have
to have a strategic perspective on what we're doing, and
that is around how do we change the face and
the culture of the NFL That are hiring. The way
that we hire is different. If you want different results,
you've got to change what you're doing. Right, We've come
across a lot of different statistics, a lot of things

(22:29):
that we're gut feelings from people but not backed by data.
So under Choice Leadership, we have an analytics group that
that's all we're doing is studying this probabilities of hiring,
probabilities of how this process works. We started looking at
who's actually in the hiring room. We're looking at things
that we need to change from the standpoint of conflicts

(22:50):
of interest when you look at who are the agents
that are actually representing the folks. So we're looking at
at every single angle because we find that it's important
in this highly networked business to not just say we
need to just have one policy called the ruining rule,
which is always tweaked and always looked at, but also

(23:11):
what are some of the other things that we need
to modify to make this actually sustainable. You also mentioned agents,
and there's only thirty two GM jobs. I mean, they're
coveted by so many people. Sometimes candidates two or three
or four candidates may be represented by the same agent.

(23:31):
There's some agents you have a lot of connections to teams.
How much have you looked at that as far as
something needs to change to broaden the pools so that
it's not always the same names being circulated for the
same jobs. Sure, and that's where you start to look
at Okay, if you've got a coach and a GM

(23:51):
and he'll see all represented by the same person and
then they're at the particular club. It doesn't mean that
it wasn't a fair process, but was it? You know?
And so what's a slice of information that we've we've
not looked at before, but now we're diving into that.
So then it becomes how do we identify that for
our process and making sure that we're watching the notes,

(24:14):
we're watching how these individuals are brought to the club.
We don't want to stop, you know what, they vest
their business and we get it, and you want to
be represented by whomever you want to be represented by.
But what we can do is put in policies and
or stop gaps so that we can identify when those
conflicts are arising. And that's I think the point when
you talk about what's happening now, it's things that we've

(24:36):
never necessarily thought about as a barrier to entry. So
we are looking at any and every possible way. We
look at nepotism, We look at people who just went
to the same college together. What are those connections. This is,
like I said, a highly networked business. So you bring
in people that you trust. But at what we're trying

(24:56):
to do is, yes, when you want to bring people
that you trust, but you also have to give the
opportunity to even impress you or to be able to
be trusted by you. And in order to do that,
we'd have to widen your circle. So I also don't
want to lessen the fact that that we also have
to focus on networking as well. We don't necessarily see
that those aren't the exes and owns, Those aren't the

(25:17):
the things that are on your resume, those aren't the databases.
Those are those small things that people don't recognize are
significantly important, but that the data will tell us. And
so we look at those kinds of things and try
to try to who I rectify them. Before we go further,
let's stop with the talk about not having enough good
candidates in the pipeline, the argument that there aren't many

(25:40):
qualified minority candidates available doesn't hold water. Gray ex keeps
an extensive list of minority GM candidates available for owners,
team executives, and search firms to consider. There's going to
be some general manager openings this offseason. If you're looking
for a teams looking for a short list of minority
already candidates for general manager or team president position, can

(26:04):
you give me a few names you already mentioned Jerry Rees,
a few more names of people who you think a
team that wants to win and get their organization point
in the right direction should be looking at. Well, I
think there's candidates all over the board, Clifton, I think
it really depends on what you're looking for in terms
of leadership type. And we have general managers who have

(26:30):
been in the seat before. There's people out there like
Martin Mayhew of San Francisco, Reggie McKenzie at Miami, And
you've mentioned Jerry Rees earlier, Rick Smith, former GM at Houston,
and Doug Whaley who's wanted Buffalo, and Ray Farmer who
was at Cleveland at one point. But these are all

(26:51):
outstanding executives and candidates. And then you've got a whole
host of guys who are coming up through the organizations
who currently in leadership roles, who've demonstrated what they're capable
of doing, and they've had a history of success and performance.
There's Terry Fontineau in New Orleans, Brad Holmes at the Rams,

(27:13):
Champ Kelly at Chicago. Again, you know, to mention one
to me does not do justice to the others. But
there's a list of guys. And one of the fallacies
that we've heard, you know, over the last couple of years,
is that the pipeline who black candidates is not deep enough.

(27:35):
And every time I hear something like that, I almost
want to jump up out of my chair and start
swinging because these are the you know, I can go
through a list of people. My next guest is Hall
of favor Bill Paulian, who spent twenty two years as
an NFL general manager. He was a six time executive

(27:59):
the year. He has served on several diversity committees, and
he has had countless conversations with owners about their hiring practices.
Polian is the only general management league history who has
hired back to back blackhead coaches. When he was a
coach general manager, a plan was set up for Jim
Carlwell to succeed Tony Dungee, the first blackhead coach to

(28:21):
win a Super Bowl. The owner of the Colts, Jim Ersay,
was forward thinking enough to hire Dungee, followed by Calwell,
who also reached the Super Bowl. But Polio realizes it
still takes convincing to get some olders to broaden the
thinking when it comes to hiring executives. Now, mister Earth say,

(28:43):
you know, obviously he's a forward thinking owner. How much
of a challenge do you think it is to get
more owners to become a little more broader into thinking
when it comes to the hiring process of a gem. Well, look,
anytime you're trying to change people's views on things, it's

(29:06):
never easy. And I don't mean to intimate, and nor
would I ever agree with the fact that NFL owners
are prejudiced in any way, or that they do not
want to hire minorities. Nothing could be further from the truth.
All of that ended with George Preston Marshall half a

(29:26):
century ago. But business practices become ingrained and more and
more in our business these days, outsiders I eat agents, media,
people who are not stakeholders insinuate themselves into the process.
Search firms insinuate themselves into the process, and in my

(29:47):
humble opinion, they shouldn't be there. They're not stakeholders. They
don't have any expertise. I know that the search firms
don't because I get calls from people all the time
asking me about Canada. Well, if they're getting paid for that,
why don't they know, let's start there. So the process

(30:09):
of hiring a head coach or a general manager has
to be a very personal process, in my view, limited
to the key decision makers at the club level, maybe
the club president, certainly the owner, certainly the general manager
if it's a football person, and then it's the responsibility
of someone in that triumvirate to always have a list

(30:29):
of people that you go to. After all, the owner
doesn't know every assistant coach in the league. He doesn't
know every personnel director or assistant GM in the league.
It's the general manager's job to maintain and update that list.
When I first became a general manager, George Young, who
was a phenomenal person then the general manager of the Giants,

(30:51):
said to me, always have a list in your left
hand drawer of potential head coaching candidates because you never
know what's going to happen, and he was right. He
was right. Tragically only left coaching. So it's up to
the GM or whomever else the owner deputizes to do
that job, to update the list, to make sure it's diverse,

(31:13):
to make sure that you're dealing with the right people
and not people just recommended by agents or media or
what have you, and know about those people. That's your responsibility.
So it's a function of how you organize your business,
and by the way, that's the way it's business is
done in the business world, day in and day out,

(31:33):
and in the military as well. It's your job to
create an atmosphere and systems where minority candidates are identified
early in the process and followed even though they may
not work for you. And if you're not doing that,
you're not doing your job. It's no different than if

(31:53):
you drafted a player without scouting him. Why would you
do that? Polia says every team should take the responsibility
to create opportunities where minority candidates and women can train,
grow and excel. He believes that's critical in keeping the
pipeline open from minority candidates to advance. Polio was a

(32:14):
mentor for Andrew Berry at the Browns, who was one
of the league's two black general managers. Berry graduated kublaude
from Harvard, where he played cornerback, but he never played
in the NFL. Barry knew he wanted a career in football,
so he turned down a job at Golden Sacks and
was hired by Polian with the Colts as an entry

(32:35):
level scout. It wasn't law before Polian realized that Barry
had special talents, and that started his path to the
front office. Polian says that there are other success stories
to come from Minardi general managers if more teams make
the investment to find and developed front office talent. How

(32:55):
important do you think it is to hire minority candidates
at entry level position in organizations so it gives it
an opportunity to learn the business and work their way
up organizations. I think it's critically important. I think it's
the most important stuff. If we're going to solve this problem,
we're gonna have to solve it in a global fashion,

(33:16):
not in a piecemeal fashion, and that starts with entry
level hiring. So if I were going back to a club,
which I'm not, but if I was, I would hire
a chief equity officer. I like the word equity rather
than diversity, and his or her responsibility would be to

(33:36):
seek out applicants at the entry level for every position
in the organization, but particularly on the football side. Let's
use the ASI newsom slash Andrew Berry example. First of all,
where do you seek them? Well, right down the hall
in the locker room. To start with players who are

(33:57):
winding up their careers, who have capacity to become scouts,
personnel people, cap people, whatever have you, they should be
encouraged to apply. You go out to the colleges and
you seek out through the college coaches players that are
not going to make it in the NFL, but who
have a desire to coach or be in the front office.

(34:21):
Bring them in as interns, hire them in entry level positions,
and then mentor the best ones throughout their careers, just
as the military services do. Select the best of the
people that you have in your building with a strong
accent on affirmative action, and begin to train them both

(34:43):
formally and through daily work assignments to take on greater responsibility.
It's really not hard to do. We just need to
do it, that's all. Now you mentioned Andrew bar I
know You've been a mentor to Andrew, and he's one
of only two black teams back now on NFL and
the youngest. Can you talk about what you saw at

(35:05):
Andrew and the attribute he has that has allowed him
to ascend so quickly. Well, we did exactly what I described.
We sought out minority candidates to become entry level personnel people,
front office people, and we sought them via searches with

(35:26):
college coaches and people like that. We wanted people who
came from good academic backgrounds. We were leaning toward people
who had economics or analytics training. We required that they
played football at some point, not necessarily at college. Andrew
did obviously it was a good player, but if they
played at the high school level, that was fine. We

(35:48):
did not want people who did not have any formal
football training, because if you don't understand the combativeness of
the sport, it's pretty hard to make good judgments. So
that was a requirement that we sat through the process.
We found Andrew, we got him in the building. We
understood immediately what we had, which was not only a

(36:08):
guy who had a Harvard pedigree and a good claim background,
but a great brain and a tremendous willingness to work
and an incredible willingness to absorb information. So you know,
we trained him up and gave him broader assignments. As
time went by, he left to go to San Francisco
because of a family issue. I think his wife had

(36:31):
found a job there. You know, I told him go
with our seven blessings. The more diverse your experience, the
more clubs you see, the better executive will be when
the time comes. Then he came back with the Colts,
and he'd been there for a couple of years after
I left, with more and better exposure, and I got

(36:52):
a call from the owner of the Cleveland Browns asking
me if he was ready to be the player personnel director,
and I said yes, he was on equivocally. The answer was, well,
he's awfully young, And I said, yeah, that's true, but
that you didn't ask me that yes people qualified. The
answer is unequivocally yes. So of course he got hired

(37:14):
there and then went on to Philadelphias and then now
back to Cleveland as the GM. So he's the prime example,
just as Ozzi is, although as he didn't change teams.
Azzi left the field. It became a scout, worked his
way up through the scouting process, was given bigger and
better executive assignments as time went on, and has gone

(37:35):
on to become not only a Hall of Fame player,
but a Hall of fame GM. So the blueprint is there. Now,
keep in mind that not everybody has the capacity to
do the job. AZZI knew him and Andrew very rare people,
just as most of the people whose old general manager's
jobs are relatively rare. When you get to the top

(37:56):
of the food chain, you have to be pretty talented,
you have to have great work ethics, and frankly, you
gotta have a little luck too. Right, not everybody's going
to make it, but you have to. You have to
make sure that you give everybody the opportunity to make it.
Here's a clip from a Huddle of the Flow, a
podcast hosted by Jim Trotter and Steve White, where Andrew

(38:18):
Barry is talking about some interesting perspectives on hiring minorities
at the upper management level. On this podcast, Steve and
I we talk a lot about creating a level playing field.
And when you were hired, obviously, as you know, you
were only the second black general manager in the NFL today,
and I wonder if you felt any sense of pressure

(38:40):
isn't the right word, but maybe even responsibility as to
how things go with you could impact those coming behind you.
I don't know that it entered my thought process, must you.
It's certainly not the pressure element. Definitely understanding the I guess,
for lack of a better term, you know, the responsibility
of it. I don't know that that feeling dictates any

(39:01):
of my actions. Like I want us to be a
strong organization. I want to do everything in my power
to um, you know, to make sure that we do
a good job as a group, because I think that's
the right that's the right focus. But I'm also I'm
also not naive to steal the potential impact that that
you know, having some success in Cleveland pod can have

(39:22):
on that front. Yeah, looking at you and Chris Career
right now. I mean that well from I'm only speaking
for myself that I think that's so important for to
these owners who say, you know that there aren't folks
in the pipeline. I hate that phrase. It just drives
me nuts about a pipeline and whatnot. But I do
think hopefully it can make it easier for them to

(39:44):
say or to expand their search and to be more
comfortable with saying I can hire someone who doesn't look
like me, or I'm willing to hire someone who doesn't
look like me because I think you can speak to this.
There are a lot of diverse candidates out there there. Yeah,
so I guess a couple of thoughts. You're gonna you're
gonna have to hear me out on this one, generally,

(40:05):
So a couple thoughts there. Um, So number one, you know,
I think you're right, Like I don't. I don't love
the narrative of like, hey, a pipeline of of diverse
candidates doesn't exist. I just I don't find that to
actually be true. The second element of that is I'd
be curious how most people end up defining diversity because
I think a lot of times the focus is just

(40:26):
on demographic diversity, Hey, you know, race, gender, But there's
also diversity of experience in terms of life experience or
even just professional experience. And then there's cognitive diversity as well,
how we problem solve, how we think, and I think
really all all of those that are important because I
think it just misses the market. You just saying hey, look,
I you know, I want, you know, someone who looks

(40:48):
different like you want someone who thinks difference, has different
different experiences, And certainly the demographics of an individual is
part of that. But the idea is, like you really
want to create like a group that can buy different
perspectives so that you can more effectively solve problems. That's why,
that's why it's so important. But that doesn't happen unless

(41:09):
organizations are deliberate certainly developing people. But I think, you know,
the larger point is also being systematic about exposing yourself
to to to people our ideas that are different. I
think certainly part of that almost falls on decision makers,
whether you're um, you know, higher head coach or a

(41:29):
GM or a scout or a coach or a team
president or you name it, like we all have to
push ourselves outside of our comfort zones and the organization
what you've done to prepare people for these opportunities, because
that was some great stuff. I'm just be looking at
the time here we got to kind of move on
a little bit, but you know, I'm looking at some
of the things that you've you know, established the Bill
Willis Coaching fellowship and you know, the Diversity Fellowship that

(41:52):
the Hasling Groups has put together. Could you explain first off,
the Bill Willis Coaching Fellowship that asked him grant UM
was awarded, what that does and but why these programs
have been established because the Browns have really been leaders
in terms of UM, I guess leadership diversity among more
most of the NFL teams. But why you felt these
were needed to really kind of groom people and get them,

(42:15):
UM get them ready for other opportunities. Yeah. I think
that's actually an area that the hasm family doesn't doesn't
get enough external credit for it in terms of UM.
Their really their track record in this area. They've they've
they've been outstanding. In terms of the Bill Willis Fellowship
in Ashton, you know, we thought that it's important just
to be systematic on that front and for the Bill

(42:36):
Willis Fellship, we wanted to UM basically give a felloiship
to a minority coach on the offensive side of the
ball as really a pipeline position, you know, for for
our organization, because it is something that we think is
a port. Ashton was UM an incredibly impressive candidate among

(42:56):
among many that we spent time with and I give
you know, really coaches to Fansky a ton of credit
for structuring and organizing the fellowship, the interview process and
giving us exposure to a lot of quality coaches, quality
young coaches that you know, I think we all believe
will will really be successful and leak at some point.

(43:17):
And we're thrilled with the work that Ashton has done
m you know, working with Dom Mitchell and in our
running back group in a QC role, and and think
that he has a very very right future. And also
I'm looking at the has of families a diversity Fellowship thing,
and this is great because a lot more businesses are
doing these rotational programs where they're they're getting young people

(43:39):
out of college and rotating him through marketing and different
things to see where they best fit. What about the
establishment of that in terms of getting business side and
those types of operational people. Yeah, I think, you know,
there's so much focus on let's say the head coach
and the general manager position, or at least that's that's
where the public focus is. But you know, the hasms

(44:01):
have been great that that's something that's both across the
football and business side operations. Because just as we talk
about being deliberate and developing people for whether it's personnel coaching,
you know, research, contract management, you name a positions, it's
it's the same thing on the on the other side, UM,
having a deliberate thought process about having a diverse set

(44:24):
of experiences thoughts, UM skill sets on that side. And
that's one of the initiatives that UM you know that
that we've done here in Cleveland to attack that problem.
There have been victories this year in the NFL's fight
to increase diversity. Watching this decision to hire Jason Wright

(44:48):
in August as the NFL's first black team president is groundbreaking,
and the success of Barry and Greer as general managers
is something not going unnoticed by owners, but another way
to possibly change the way the NFL's upper barriagement looks
should change it. At the very top, Halloway says, there

(45:09):
are black entrepreneurs interested in becoming NFL owners who will
be waiting for the next opportunity to break that barrier.
We need to look at ownership. So how do we
look at the individuals who have accumulated wealth beyond my
means that can be potentially participate in the limited partnership

(45:34):
we thought we'd actually get a lot of pushback because
it's a very silent type of process where you know,
there's not a lot of information about how you own
an NFL team out there. They're just not is a
very quiet world. What they say money talks about whispers
is the oh badage, and it's one of those things

(45:55):
that's extremely true. But we started talking about if you're
really going to change the way this looks and feels
and talks and walks, then you need to do it
at every single level. It doesn't having a great intern fantastic,
but when you start talking about real change, what does
that look like at the ownership levels? And so we've

(46:15):
been talking to people about being limited partners. We've been
educating individuals who are interested in that, and so even
that people sending me text messes I'm ready, let's do this.
You know, when something comes up, I'm ready to do this.
And so wanting people to be ready when those opportunities
come up is key that we've never been able to
do before. Sorry, I am passionate, and I will talk

(46:35):
a lot about this off whenever you want to. You
kind of touched on it, but as you mentioned ninety
nine poor nine percent of us are excluded from the
ownership level because of finances. It's not a diversity thing
as far as you know, ethnicity or gender. So for

(46:59):
the earty two people in charge of harming, how much
of it is changing change or getting them to look
at things maybe a little differently? And over your I
guess sixteen years around the league, have you sensed changes
in this on this subject that people are more open

(47:22):
to really wanting to change this and not just talking
about changing this at the ownership level. I can appreciate
that question. I've been with the league for sixteen almost
seventeen years now. I've been in the audit department. I've
been in those accounting functions, and I did not learn
the rules of how to actually acquire a team until

(47:43):
the last year and a half. Now, does that mean
that no one wanted to tell me? Does that mean
that you know, I just wasn't interested. Absolutely not. It's
just one of those things that's just not spoken about, right.
And so when I started to dig into that and
look at again what barriers to entry are there for
people of women or what have you, it really wasn't

(48:03):
because no one wants you at the table it really wasn't.
It was around exactly what you said, identifying individuals in
those groups that have the wealth in order to be
able to do that. I have been wowed by the
number of people of means that we don't really hear
about in the news. We have your you know, you

(48:24):
have your normal folks that you hear about every day,
and but we do have people of means that are
people of color as well as women. They have been
coming out of every direction. And I'm just I as
a business person and woud and I feel so passionately
about that particular project because I want that Natara Holloway
who is sitting on the east side of Austin to

(48:46):
hear about that person who has their own business and
as a billionaire, or that woman who owns a recruiting agency,
who is the first African American female to own a
recruiting agency that's a billion dollar business. You don't hear
about the stories. And not to say that any of
the billionaires the operas of the world are you know,
less important by any struct in imagination. But you hear

(49:07):
about those kinds of things. The ones that you don't
hear about are who I want our young people to
actually hear about and understand that that wealth also moves
just as importantly as those Oprahs and jay Z's and
Beyonce's of the world, and so that they can feel
good like you know, they're there. I don't have to sing,
I don't have to be able to wrap to be
able to do that. I can be a business person,

(49:29):
I can be a hedge fund manager, and I can
accumulate that same wealth. So being able to display that,
because really our ownership group is a display of the
most brilliant business folks that you have, you know, have
minorities in that pool, is so important to people that
grew up in neighborhoods that I grew up in. And

(49:50):
so that's where I think is to me the most meaningful.
I always call it my mic Drop moment. When we
get this done, it's gonna be my mic Drop moment,
because I just think it's so important for young people
to be able to see what they can be. So
that's you know, corny, but I just I just I
just I think it's so important, and I think if
we can use the platform of the NFL to do that, Man,

(50:13):
I'll sign me up any day, sign me up any day.
We're about to enter another off season hiring cycle when
teams will be seeking general managers, executives and coaches. Will
NFL owners hire more qualified minorities. Considering everything that has
happened in twenty twenty, the league has a responsibility to

(50:36):
offer more than just lip service. Polian is optimistic that
the league has made a recommitment to diversity that will
show doing the off season hiring process. So I would
take it in as you're optimistic that because the league is,
you know, making this one the forefront of the things
they want to do inclusion diversity at all levels, and

(50:58):
we're having guys like Rag Byron Andrew Barry to be successful.
That you're optimistic, and there'll be a larger pool of
minority candidates getting a chance to compete, whether it's the
GM coaches during this next hiring cycle. It's about to
come up when the season's over. Yes, I am, without question,
I am yea. I have a list of who I

(51:21):
think the appropriate candidates are, and I've checked with the
number of people and we all have the same names.
So yes, it will be the pool will be larger,
and there will be a concerted effort on the part
of because Roger Dell has made it, made it a priority,
there'll be a concerted effort on the part of the
clubs to, you know, make this hiring cycle clearly diverse,

(51:43):
make it to use President elect Biden's term, make it
look like America and make it look like the NFL
by extension. But beyond that, if we take the steps
at the entry level to seek out and cultivate minority talent,
will solve the problem in the long run, which is
the most important thing. Troy Visit, the NFL's executive vice

(52:06):
president of football Operations, gave a candidate response on a
recent conference call. When I asked him if this was
a watershed moment for the league, we bought him diversity. Cliff.
I think it's a watershed moment for our country what
we saw after that eight minutes and forty six second video.

(52:26):
I think we all have to commit to do better
for do the right thing for the right reasons. Um.
I think we as an institution, when we look ourselves
in the mirror, we haven't done well, and the facts
and analytics speak to that. But just a commitment that
I've seen in this particular area with term and ruining
and commissioner, and and and a good a good number

(52:51):
of our principal owners. The commitment that they've made with
the changes, it's been a complete reform um as it
becames the policy around our hiring practices, how we deal
with each other internally. So I do believe Cliff, this year,
this pandemic has caused us to cause and really look

(53:13):
at racial inequalities and how race and how that affects
all of us, in particular in the work area. So
we got a lot of work to do, But I
truly believe that we're committed. I think there's been some
true steps that have been taken and laid out for
us to get better results, not just in hiring, but
just how we treat people in general. I think everyone's

(53:36):
seeing that the disparities just from education to hiring. We
see it every day play out and our everyday lives,
and we're affected here at the National Football League like
most others. But I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful as well.

(53:58):
I like to see more of lack of NFL players
follow Ausi Nuther's path from the field to the executive box.
I like to see us reach a point where the
lack of diversity hiring in the NFL is something that's
no longer necessary to talk about in the future. I
like more coaches, gums and executives being interviewed to feel

(54:21):
differently than I have at so many job interviews. In
my opinion, we haven't reached that point yet, so I
feel the need to keep talking and speaking of Azzi,

(54:44):
he's the centerpiece of my next episode of Black in
the NFL. We'll look at his life journey from the
segregated South to make a history as the NFL's first
black general mansion, and how he has paved the way
for others. I grew up in the sixties in the
state of Alabama, and I saw segregation and integration, you know,

(55:05):
I saw it all happened. And you know, so people
always say it like I'm the first African American gentleman. Yeah.
My brother and I were the first to play Little
League Baseball in my hometown, the first African Americans. Just
do that. I have a brother that's twelve years older
me that didn't have these opportunities because they just wasn't
there for him, you know, as it was for me.
So I saw times change. Black in the NFL is

(55:33):
powered by Blue Wire. This show is produced and edited
by Noah Eberhard An executive produced by Michelle Andres, Ryan Mink,
John Yales, and Peter Moses. Two to the Ravens Podcast
Network for two other podcasts, The Lounge hosted by Garrett

(55:54):
Downey and Ryan Mink and What Happened to That Guy?
Hosted by John Isaenburg. Thanks so all my guests, and
join us for the next episode of Black in the NFL.
Until then, be blessed and thanks for listening.