Basics of the D-Line with Defensive Line Coach Kacy Rodgers | Booth Review

Unlike the offensive line, the defensive line is ever-changing with rotations and different alignments on seemingly every down. Hear from the 2020 D-Line Coach of the Year on all the possibilities with the defensive front.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
So you think you know football, come find out straight
from the source in the Booth Review podcast, where we
take you inside the offices of the box assistant coaches
to talk some football fundamentals. Get your white boards ready.
Here's Buccaneers staff writer Carmen Vitality. Welcome back in today.
I am here with Casey Rogers. He is the Boxy

(00:22):
defensive line coach, previously defensive coordinator under Todd Bold in
New York. Casey, thank you so much for coming on
and being with me today. Thank you so much for
having me. I'm so excited because listen, you've been coaching defense,
defensive line for what nearly three decades at this point,
pushing it, pushing it. So I really can't think of
a better person to go over some day line basics

(00:44):
with us today. And that's where I want to start.
I want to start very basically, and I want you
to kind of describe to me, Um, the defensive line
often referred to as the defensive front, those those are
kind of used interchangeably. Um, it's made up of what positions.
Just start there. Tell me the positions that you coach.

(01:05):
Tell me the positions that we have on this team
that you know kind of make this whole thing go.
For the most part. Defensively, in the NFL collegiate or
high school was there is two types of fronts or systems. Defensively.
You either are a four man front you here have
referred to as a four three defense, or it's a
three four defense, which we are base out of here

(01:28):
in Tampa. So when you say the defensive front in general,
if you're in a four man front, you have two
INDs and two tackles, two inside guys, two outside guys.
For us and our basins, our base is a three four.
We have a inside guy or a nose, We have
two inns, and we have two outside linebackers, which forms
our front. Now based on different personnel groups that the

(01:51):
offense will deploy will force us to change. So, for instance,
and our base deepness in our three four vita is
our nose, our ends or be Will and Sue, and
our outside linebackers are shocking JPP. So that forms our
defensive front. We kind of because we have at the
outside linebacker, so we're three four, but across the front,

(02:13):
we got five guys up there. Okay, Now, if we
were a four three team, we would have two inside
guys and two ends. Now, when the offense brings in
eleven personnel, we take out one of our ends, and
Vita and Sue are our inside guys, and Shack and
JPP are our ends. So what people don't really know
or grasp is that we are a three four base defense,

(02:37):
but when they bring eleven personnel into the game, we
go to a four down front. More often than that
an eleven personnel being we covered actually in another episode,
which is one running back, one tight end on the
field from the offense, which necessitates more likely a need
for another defensive back on the field. And that's kind
of where you get that extra player from. Whereas now

(02:58):
you have a four man front instead of a five
man front, so you can get another guy on the
back end. Okay, think of that. We took out a
front gun, we bought in a nickel. Yes, that's exactly right, cousin,
when you're you're exactly right. You said the offense has
one tidy one back. But now the biggest thing is
they have three receivers, so we bring in another guy
to cover the third receiver. Perfect, So that's that's pretty clear.

(03:21):
Now where are these guys though, whether you're in a
three four. Whether you're in a four three where these
guys line up varies depending on whether you're anticipating a
path anticipating a run. Talk to me about that positioning,
because that positioning doesn't change talking about the techniques. So
that's what the positioning is called. You have these designated

(03:43):
techniques along the line, and that's where you tell, hey, Vita,
you're gonna be this one, You're gonna be this one.
Explain to me what these techniques are and as best
you can kind of map them out for me in
an audio format. Our number one defense that we play
is what most people consider are under defense. So when
we set the strength, when Devon Orvante sets the strength

(04:05):
to the call side, interior wise, we have a four technique,
he has head up the offensive tackle to the to
the strength of the offense. Okay, and on the same
side with Will would be be the he'll be a
shade or a one technique. He shade the center to
the side of the four. Away from that would be Sue.
He'd be a three. So he's outside shade of a guard,

(04:27):
away from the strength. So if we come out and
we get a strong left call We'll have a four
head up the offensive tackle B two B shade it
that way, and Sue would be a three in the
B gap away from them. Then JPP and Shack will
be outside edge of both opposite size. Devin will go
to the strong side and Bante goes away. That's how

(04:47):
our front seven deploy is based on what the offense
gives us. So now yeah, you're now you're talking about
the entire front seven, not just the front and that. Like,
what I also need want people to understand is how
interconnected the defensive line line is to everything else behind them,
because I feel like they get the lot that gets lost,
especially when you're talking about maybe the pass rush or
something like that, Like you know, run defense Obviously that

(05:09):
starts up front because the backs are coming out of
the backfield. When what I think is interesting is when
you get these pass rush sets where you now have
to either clear the way or you are doing a
lot of stuff up front that is helping the guys
behind you, either that are coming in on a blitz
or the sheer fact that you are putting pressure on
the quarterback so he has to get rid of the

(05:30):
ball quicker too in order for maybe to help out
the secondary so they don't have to cover as long
or any of that. So talk to me about the
roles that the defensive line plays the end the defensive line,
regardless of what system you and whether you are four
three or three four defense, defensive configuration. The number one
thing when you start off this gap control. You know,

(05:53):
and for people listening out there at gap control for
offense and really every where aft coach Uh Julie or professionally,
where our gap control is. When you look at the center,
either side of the center, we call the A gap
either side of the guards either side or the B
gaps either side. Outside the offensive tackles are the C

(06:14):
gaps and outside the tight ends would be the D gaps.
Any defensive structure you're in, you're designed to take make
sure all those gaps are accounted for. That's how you
try to stop the run. So that's where you start with.
So all these gaps. And when you said, I said
told you earlier we were an under defense. So the
strong side a gap would be taken by Vita. The

(06:36):
week side a gap would be taken by Vante, who
is our week sideline back. He has that week side
a gap because Sue is in the week side B gap. Okay,
Will is on the strong side as a four, but
he's taken the B gap. Devin is kind of free player,
but he's gonna work to the C gap strong side
called shack, and JP would have the D gap. So
that's the way you base figure gap control defense, and

(07:00):
it would be no different if we were in a
four three. You line the gaps out who got that one?
Who got that one? And that's the way you start
your foundation for rush defense. Now, once you get that done,
once you take the same about process, and now you're
into the pass rush mode, you still instead of gaps,
you talk more lanes because you don't want to open

(07:21):
up these big old rush lanes in the quarterback steps up.
Some of the guys in this league, the Lamar Jackson's
the homes these guys, if you open up these big windows,
they'll take off and really hurt you. So you're really
more concentrated on your rush lane. So in the run
game is gap control in the past rushes rush lanes?
Who has this like how did the quarterback get out?

(07:42):
Who missed this lane? So that's kind of how everything's
configure it and just to kind of reiterate then, because
we talked a little bit about the techniques just before,
and now how do they relate to the gaps? Like
if you can talk to me about all right, the
zero technique is what it's right over the sign. If
I said, the way we the outline our techniques that

(08:04):
these guys play with the structure of our defense. If
we tell you are a zero, you are head up
the center. If you say Vita is playing the zero,
and he is head up the center. And if you
start lining up and play a guy head up for
the most part, he is a two gaup player. So
if I told you Vita is lining up the center
and he's a two gut player, he's taking the strong

(08:25):
a gap and the week gap. He's a two gaut player.
So if and it's easy for us to with our
numbering system because Vita, if he's a zero, he's head
up to the center. If he's a two technique, he's
head up to guard. If you are a four technique,
you head up the tackle. If you are a six technique,

(08:45):
you head up the tight end. So that's our number
and says whether you go strong or weak, you are
to head up to guard. If you are four, you
head up to tackle. If you are six, you head
up the tight end. Now from that standpoint, now let's
say we want to shade the center onside and we
call that a one technique. Okay, So now if we
want to shade the guard outside, that's a three. If

(09:07):
we want to shade the tackle outside, that's a five.
It's just odd numbers, even numbers. That's the way we
teach our guys. So if I told you this guy
is gonna be a nine technique, you know right now
he's outside shade of the tight end. That's just our
numbering system. So that's the way we try to get
him lined up. And then the only confusing part I
do feel that comes in when you talk about the

(09:28):
interior technique and then you've got like a four eye,
got a four eye, which okay, now I told you
four was head up to tackle, four ward four iby
before I would be on the inside of the tackle.
You got it. What if I said a two eye,
you would be the inside of the guards. There you go,
you got rocket side. People think we are just inventing

(09:49):
the wheel. It is not rocket signs by any stretch.
You got it it is, and I wanted to just
kind of try and paint that picture as much as
you possibly can on an audio only format. But again,
when you get it up on the white, they feel
like it becomes even more simple because you can physically
see the guys, you can see the techniques, you can
see everything like that. But I do feel like you
talk about you hear maybe the words three tech a

(10:10):
little bit more than you hear any of the others
or nose tackle three, you know three technique. What separates
a player for being suited for those roles? Kind of well,
the reason and I remember I told you like the
way we deploy our people, we say Vita is a
shade or inside guy. Cause that guy that plays on
the center, he is in a world of work. You know,

(10:33):
people that you know. He don't get a lot of
the notoriety. But when you watch a game, that guy
playing on top of the center, he is right in
the middle of everything. So that guy physically has to
be we like them six three or better six three
to six five three d and ten pounds to three
plus pounds because the stuff that goes on him, if

(10:53):
they move him, it breaks down the integrity of your defense,
So you need somebody big and strong to be there.
And we talked earlier. You said he's a zero, he's
head of he got two gaps, So you gotta be
a man to stop a man and play two gaps.
So that's that, physically, is the most demanding position we
have on our team in our defense. Then we say

(11:14):
Will Uh is our four techniques, which is another physical
position because you're line en up head up offensive tackle
and you see how big some of the offensive tackles
are in this league, so we this is another physical,
physical position. Now Sue plays our three technique. Now that
guy needs to be big in stock because he's holding
the big gal, but he also has to have the

(11:35):
quickness and stuff because he's working the guard, which is
a more advantageous rush position. So you gotta have a
guy who's strong enough to stop him in the run game,
but have the athleticism to beat him in the past
rush game. So that's the difference if you look at
I just talked about, say Sue, Vita and Uh Will,
but three different guys, but three different body types based

(11:56):
on what we asked them to do in our defense.
I think people get lost in that sometimes because Sue
is a good player, but he wouldn't be a great
nose everything. Will is a good player, but he can't
make a living it. And you see what I'm saying,
it's unique body types for the position and their job description.
And I think what's also interesting about the defensive line,
especially like you look at the offensive line, Both both

(12:18):
sides of the line have to play as a unit.
Right the offensive line that has the benefit of continuity
where they are fielding the same five guys and relatively
the same positions every single play. The defensive line does
not have that luxury, so they have to still play
as a unit. Whereas it might not be Vita and
Sue and Will on the line. At the same time.
You may have Rickie June roaches out there, and you

(12:39):
may have Steve McClendon, you may have some of these
other guys changing out. What is the purpose of that
rotation and how do you determine the cadence of it? Well,
the thing is with a rotation and defensive guys, so
you know, people don't when you watch an NFL game.
The average NFL game snap to sixty seventy snaps. That's
the average NFL game and from an offensive line, perfect

(13:00):
if you could have sixty seventy snaps and that offensive
line played every snap. From a defensive perspective, defensive guys,
it's more grueling. You know, offensive lineman don't necessarily have
to run to the ball. Defensive line have to run
to the ball. Then the most taxing thing to do
in pro football is rushing the quarterback. So you rush

(13:20):
the quarterback the offensive line, they're going backwards. The defensive
line has to go forwards and get around them and
to get to the quarterball. So it's so taxing. I
learned this early on in the in the league. You know,
if you play a defensive line of sixty snaps in
the game, those last tense snaps when you need some rush,
it's not coming because those guys get what they wear
down based on the job description and what you ask

(13:41):
them guys to do. So we like to rotate our
guys and as based on their age and experience and
how the game's going. We like, you know, talk about
it in the off season about this guy at this player,
at this stage, how many players can they give us
on a high level. So you know, older guys they
get you kind of find that special number between forty
and forty five snaps that he can give you on

(14:03):
a high level. And also it's advantage. You know that
offensive lineman just played seventy snaps and we just played
forty five. So in the fourth quarter when you need
the side to win the game, we should have a
little more gas. But if you leave those guys out
there and they run out of gas, you're gonna be
You heard the commentatory they can't get into rush. Well,
they're tired, you know, That's what I'm saying. That's the
part they leave out. If you leave a gap their

(14:24):
sixties seventy plays the body when we got so many
plays in it, I don't care what kind of shape
you So we'd like to rotate them to keep them fresh.
That makes a ton of sense. And I also want
to since you're touching a little bit more on the
pastors and how grueling it is to get after that quarterback.
I one of my big things is I don't think

(14:44):
that the interior of the line really gets the credit
there due when it comes to even when I mean
you've got you're on a team with stack artists, right
like JPP, like Shack Barrett, they get kind of the
glory because they're the ones that are taking the quarterback down.
But they're not doing that on their own. They have
they have a ton of help that comes from the interior.
And I just want you to speak to what these

(15:06):
inside guys are doing while these guys are trying to
get around there, either the tackle or the tight end
or whoever it is to get to the quarterback. What
are these guys doing on the interior to help that. Well,
we're blessed to have, you know, elite edge rushers. Button Well,
also if we're blessed to have an interior guy and
Sue who can win his share of one on ones too,
but you have a big guy inside like a Vita

(15:27):
will goos to the nacho. Those guys job is too
and it really all for them when you go just
to condense that pocket and make that quarterback uncomfortable. However
we do that now we know that JPP and shock
number one job is to not let him outside. The
inside guy job is to not let him scape up inside.

(15:49):
When those guys are coming off the edge and he's
filling the heat warriors, the quarterback gonna go, He's gonna
step up inside. That's where the inside guys gotta show up. Now,
Also those outside guys gotta be this that times to
stay outside because the inside guys, if they win and
get to push, where is he gonna go, He's gonna
scramble outside. So it all works together. That's where people
like you say, you know, they might get the note rod,

(16:11):
but it all works together. And those guys and and
it really you're the mark of a good team is
really to be unselfish because at times those guys gotta
go up and under the ends when they go win inside,
the tackles gotta work outside to contain the quarterback or
vice versa. When we run stunts and games, the inside
guys gotta pick to open up a lane for the

(16:32):
inside guy. It all works together. Those guys have to
work in tandem. And you know, also they have to
kind of know where. You know, if I'm to the
two outside and I'm a rusher, i got a little
more room than if I got a three technique on
my side. So they have to understand what guys on
their side. Because in our base configuration, once our guys
line up in a pass for a situation, you got

(16:55):
Sue and Vita inside and JPP and check outside. Just
for instance, they know right now by shack and JP
is outside, but forever Sue is. We usually give him
a two way go so he can beat the guard
inside or outside, but that end to the side of
siouit has to know that beat. On the other hand,
he can't really leave that a gap. So where we

(17:15):
deployed those guys have to know where each other are
and to execute our games and stunts and how we
want to try to collapse the pocket. Real quick, talk
to me about what a stunt is, because I feel
like that's also another term that's for us. A stunt,
especially in the past, for a situation or stunt or
game is like a combination of a guy and let's
say right here, I'm a two eye on the side

(17:36):
of Shack of JPP. One stunt would be for JPP
to take the tackle up and come inside and beat
a sioue go outside to to form a game and
we just kind of swatch swatch gap responsibilities. Okay. Another
game would be from the three technique guy and the
B guy. I go up and pick the tackle so

(17:57):
the end can come under and we try to get
the mid match on the guard. If he doesn't pass
it off quick enough, we could get a free hit
on the quarterback. So it's just a way we communicate
with each other that swap job responsibilities. So and the
point they're being to either confuse the the offense or
to create mismatches that maybe weren't there pre snaps. There

(18:17):
you go, and is it kind of akin to like
when guards pull like on the offensive line. Is it
like the defensive equivalent to pulling on the offensive line
for us stunts our games? Are we trying to cause confusion?
Were those guys, like you said, they work together all
the time, they play every snap together, so we're trying
to confuse them. They got their protections, they want to

(18:39):
turn the protection to the eyeball in the mic here. Well,
you know we got were blessed to have different guys.
So if you want to turn the protection over here
to JPP, let's we're gonna twist you over here with
shacks and sue. If you want to turn the protection
over here, we'll run the game over there. Oh, if
you want to just say your tackles can handle our ends,
we're gonna live with that. And then we're gonna make
sue and be up in there. Then you know, our

(19:01):
defensive coordinator has a tendency to blitz too, so you
know so so that could be an issue too. So
we want to cause as much confusion to the offense
as we can. And one of the first things to
understand in our mentality, whether it's run or past or situation,
is Todd's mentality is we want to play defense with
the offensive mentality. So constantly we want to attack the

(19:24):
offensive line because that's where it started. They can't protect
the quarterback, or they can't get the running game going,
you're disrupting them. We want to disrupt them with our
stunts and games, the different fronts we play, the matchups
we have in certain situations, and we want to cause
overall confusion. And you guys are very successful given that.
Not only are you create a confusion maybe up front,
but then you're using that to also bring in a

(19:47):
defensive back on a blitz or I mean Devin White
had nine sacks last year. You're using guys from multiple
levels to confuse. So not only are these guys getting
confused up front, but then this defensive line is having
an effect on what's happening behind them. And speak to
that to you a little bit more, because again that's
another one of those things where the defensive line can
help the secondary in a lot of ways and and

(20:10):
can alleviate some of that pressure on that. How do
they do that? Well, the thing is you look at
it and a lot of people are revert back to
the Super Bowl and really against the NFC Championship game
at Green Bay. When you we play teams with elite,
elite receivers, you know you can't. You don't want to
leave those guys on one on one too long with
the elite receivers, and that that's asking too much. So

(20:31):
right there that telling us going in game playing, why
we're gonna have to find a way to win with four.
Now understand that people say passed for us this and
that for the most part, people all they can't get
a rush. They can't get to understand. You've got five
guys blocking four and so somebody getting double. So these
other guys have to win one on one. We're blessed

(20:52):
here to have people who can win one on one.
So if we can win our one on ones. Now
we're saying we only have to commit four guys to
the rush. Now we've got more guys back in coverage.
Now the problem now for our you know, with our
defensive mentality and our coordinator here now, he's not gonna
leave him back there by themselves because he has a
defensive back mentality, being a former dB. He would rather

(21:14):
the ball come out fast and you have it all day.
So if we're not getting there with four, he'll come
get them with more more than four. But if we're
getting there with four, the different coverage concepts we used to,
we're gonna try to confuse you there, so it works
hand in hand. We look at it like wars. They
know where you are, they're gonna blow you up. So
we ain't gonna before you think we're gonna be you know,
and people when they look at us, how do y'all

(21:35):
do this? Do that? You know, just being around Todd
and stuff when you that them you watched last week
of us playing good study because if we ain't gonna
be there this week, but you study at all you want.
And I like to tell people know that card you
held up in practice, all that's good, but you ain't
gonna see that this week. So you know, we make
people trust their rules, and you know you can't say

(21:56):
scheme wise, they're gonna be in this front. Now we're not.
You know, we might look like this, but we're not.
We're gonna We're gonna make you stay true to your rules,
your technique and stuff like. If not, you're gonna give
up a play. That's what I've found very interesting, especially
about this defensive scheme and what Todd Bowls is able
to do. Because you're right, you could line up the
exact same way five different times and yield five different results.

(22:20):
You could run five different, complete, completely different plays out
of the same formation, and it's I don't know how
anyone ever came well. That's that's the thing of defensive football.
You know, we're trying to disrupt the offense because one
guy screw up, you know, miss a blog turned somebody lose.
Now it's second and fourteen instead of second and six,

(22:42):
and it's a lot harder to confort first downs. That's
the defense. We're trying to create negative plays, whether it's
in the run game, the past game with a sack
or and then you mix in takeaways. Quarterback made the rid.
He thought we were a man. We were in z own.
He did it into cloud and we go to other way.
So that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to
play aggressive good at Gass, to play fast ron impious,

(23:03):
and execute on Hollo. That's that's really all it is. Well,
as much as you want to confuse opposing offenses, I'm
hoping that this podcast episode has helped clear up some
confusion about anything defensive line wise. And I really really
appreciate you taking the time to take us all through
it because I think this was extremely interesting, especially to

(23:24):
leave it back into the philosophy and just the overall
way you guys attack things. I think I find so
incredibly interesting with you now, no job, Thanks again so
much for listening. This has been Casey Rogers, the Blocks
defensive line coach here with me Carmen Vitally, Bucks staff writer,
and I can't wait to talk to you guys again
soon