August 1, 2021 • 24 mins
Gaps, pulling, down blocking, what makes a good center, guard, tackle. All that and more from a former-NFL-center-turned-coach that has snapped to some of the greatest quarterbacks of all time.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
So you think you know football, come find out straight
from the source in the Booth Review podcast, where we
take you inside the offices of the Bucks assistant coaches
to talk some football fundamentals. Get your white boards ready.
Here's Bucketeers staff writer Carmen Vitality today's episode. I am
lucky enough to be joined by offensive assistant and newly
(00:23):
retired NFL center a Q Shipley Q. Thank you so
much for joining us today. Thanks for having me. I'm
really excited about this because not only have you had
you had a very long career in the NFL as
a player, but you have now immediately switched to coaching.
But before I even talked about that, you're kind of
(00:44):
a pro at this too. Yeah, I do okay with this.
I mean, my best friend from since two thousand twelve,
Pat McAfee has one of the biggest podcasts probably in
the world, I guess at this point now, and I
didn't know what I wanted to do when I was
done playing, so he kind of got me started. Whether
it started with interviews at first, then it's gotten into
(01:05):
um I actually like send my co host hockey podcast
under his umbrella and gotten kind of a good feel
for hosting, at least if I ever wanted to do that.
So UM grateful for him for giving me those opportunities
to at least be comfortable on a mike. If and
when I ever decided to go that route. I have
big expectations for you because I think the other guys
(01:27):
that I've had so far that was like this was
their first podcast. But it also puts me under a
lot more pressure to deliver here. Yeah, you gotta you
gotta lead the charge. If I'm doing a bad job hosting,
I'm just gonna defer to you. Perfect, perfect, All right, Well,
I do want to get into today's topic with you,
which is not in fact hockey. You're gonna have to
talk about some football and you're gonna have to talk
(01:47):
about some offensive line stuff because they're saying, like, I
don't feel like the offensive line gets the credit there
due I always kind of try to be an advocate
for the big boys, and I think a lot of
it stems from the that people just don't understand everything
that goes into playing the position. So I want to
start real basic first. And I'm sure people most people
(02:10):
know this this kind of stuff, but I just want
to make sure that we're laying the groundwork properly. Talk
to me about the structure of the offensive line. You
are an NFL center for years. I feel like it
starts there, go from there. What How how do you
structure the line? There are five guys on the line.
How is it all stuck? Certain? Yeah, so centers the
guy in the middle of the guy snaps the ball
of the quarterback, and then on each side of him,
(02:32):
you got a left guard in the right guard, a
left tech on the right tech one and typically not always,
but typically kind of you get taller as you work
your way out right. And I've always always get the
jokes in the offensive line because I was the short guy.
But um centers usually in that like six one to
six three range. Your guards are in that six two
to six five range. And then you're tackles got the
(02:55):
longer levels. They're the ones going against the fastest guys
the speed rush. There's the shack bearts, the jpps, and
need the long arms need to be super athletic because
they're going against guys that are probably the biggest freaks
on the field. Right, and then the interior guys are
the ones that are kind of keeping the depth of
the pockets of the quarterback can step up and do
(03:15):
what he does and pick apart defenses. Yeah, so there's
nu ones that's kind of each position. So like what
makes an ideal center, what makes an ideal guard, what
makes an ideal tackle? Yeah, I guess in my in
my opinion, I would say, you know, centers have to
be probably the smartest guy. Right they're the ones that
are the quarterback of the offensive line. They're relaying all
(03:36):
the information they're getting, they're coming up, they're making the
middle linebacker point, which is basically predicated um on exactly
who we're going to or who we're working away from whatever.
And then almost every single play, whether it's run or
past so starts there. And then you like him to
be tough, You like him to be athletic because he's
gotta get out and run, get to the second level,
(03:56):
do that whole world. Guards are usually a little bigger.
UM want them to be smart obviously too, but you
know they're they're your they're your run blockers there at
the point of attack and most of your runs, they're
getting things starred in the run game. They're also um
in past protection there one on one a lot in
the back side, so you've got to have good pass
protectors at guard as well. Centers obviously can get a
little more help, you know, if they have a shade.
(04:17):
The guards kind of a sideboard form one way or another,
so they're not in one on one situations as much. Um,
left tackles the blind side on most quarterbacks because most
quarterbacks are righty, So that's your guy that needs to
be your best pass protector. Um and then right tackle
obviously again he gets putting one on one situations a
lot as well. And um, yeah, that's kind of the
(04:38):
whole nuances of the the whole group. Well, that was
something interesting to see that you touched on because you
hear the blind side and I mean there's a whole
movie made about it, but that basically references the fact
that if a quarterback's right hand at his back is
to that side, so he can't see who's coming, he
can't sense the press or maybe he can, but he's
not he doesn't have eyes on that pressor so you
have to kind of be his eyes and ears as
(04:59):
that left tackle. In most cases, if your quarterback the
left hander, then it might be the right then it
will be the right tackle on that side. And I
actually have a question in those cases, would a guy
that maybe typically played the left tackle, would he switch
over to the right because of that? No, that's that's
the interesting thing, right. It's like if you're if you're
Donovan Smith guy, it's so bizarre, like centers are always
(05:21):
balanced right, they have to go left, they have to
go right. But if you're a left tack where you're
in a stance that literally your left legs way back,
then you're right right, So your hips getting these positions.
I've talked to so many guys that have tried to
make that transition when they've been in a left stance
their whole career, and then they go to the right,
and it's like their hips don't work the same, one
like stronger than the other. It's a whole different world.
(05:42):
So um, you just have to, hopefully, I guess, in
that situation, find the best right tackle in the league
to try and you know, since it's only going to
be a handful of left handed quarterbacks, try and find
that best right hand or right side tackle. Well. And
that leads me into another thing where I feel like
we take for granted or at least maybe the massive
tape for granted, because you hear so many scouting reports,
even scouts will be like, oh, yeah, well he played
(06:04):
right tackle, but where we think he could be at
the left, or like when the guys are coming out
of college, that transition isn't I think that's easier said
than done, right, like having to make those adjustments and
basically mirror what you're used to doing. I mean, if
I tried to write with my left hand and I'm
a right e that's a lot that's not that's not easy. Look,
(06:24):
I think, uh, I think as coaches, now that I'm
in that role, I think we um tend to think
things are easier than maybe they are a lot of times, right,
like you hear all these times with this guard that's
never snapped the ball, we'll make him a center. Right.
It's until you put a ball between your legs and
have to blog vitave. It's a whole different world, right,
(06:44):
like the and the and I think a lot of
times we take that for granted or vice versa. You know,
you got this great guy that's coming out of college.
He's been a right tackle, right tackle, right tack. When
it's like, okay, we're gonna make him are starting left tag,
We're gonna draft him wherever, and it's like, who knows
if that's gonna work. He's never been in that situation.
He's never been on the left side right Like, So,
I think there's there's always these situations where we think
(07:06):
it's way easier than it is in cases, and grantedge
sometimes it pans out and sometimes it doesn't. But that's
that's part of the nature of this business. I think
it makes it even more impressive when you hear of
guys that have done both in college, or play both
sides in college or something like that. Um, but you
mentioned a few while in those explanations, you mentioned who's
the best pass protector? Who's that I want to get into.
So the offensive line is very unique in that all
(07:28):
five guys have to work for the same purpose. They
also line up the same place relatively every single snap,
but they're not doing the same thing on every single down.
The main duties of the offensive line what pass protection,
run blocking to main So what goes into that though,
Like when you when you say pass protection, I feel
(07:50):
like a lot of people here say, for instance, five
man protection. Yes, there's five guys on the field, but
it doesn't necessarily mean that. It's not that simplistic, is
what I'm trying to get that. So what does that mean?
How do you go just about describing past text are
kind of learning what the differences are between that, and
then say, if it is a run play you're run blocking,
(08:10):
what are the differences there? Yeah, So I mean I
think in most I mean I'll start with the defense first, right,
So in most defensive cases there's there's four down linemen
or there's three down linemen. But in most cases guy
with his hand on the ground, with his hands in
the ground defensive lineman, the big guys, right. And the
way I always think of it is like the offensive
line and the running back, or the offensive line, the
(08:31):
tight end, depending on different protection schemes, whatever it may be,
are going to handle some form of the six or
seven big numbers. Right, So all your dbs are all
wearing twenty numbers or now in the new rules, could
be single digit numbers, right, But they're all lower numbers. Right.
So the bigger numbers, for the most part, are going
(08:52):
to be your nineties, your fifties, your sixties, seventies, those
I call those big numbers. Right, So we're gonna hand
the six, seven, five, whatever it could be depending on
the protection. We're gonna handle that many numbers of big numbers,
and you know, the skill guys are gonna have to
handle the corners and the defensive guys, right, we don't
(09:13):
have to worry about them for the most part. Um
Again speaking in basic terms here, but that's that's the
basic premise, right. So in a five man protection, you
got the five officer alignment, there's usually five receivers going
out for a route, or you know, or the running
backs leaving and going out for a route. So we
literally have to handle, you know, the five most dangerous guys.
That's basically what it comes down to. In in some
(09:34):
cases they bring six, then that's when you hear hot route.
Quarterback has to throw hot her vice versa. Right, But
we're going to handle the five most dangerous. So I
think the biggestincts in there is it doesn't have to
do with the offensive line having five men on it.
It has to do with how many guys you're blocking, correct, Which, yeah,
that's that's kind of the distinction I wanted to make
there because I think that's pretty that can be misunderstood
(09:56):
at times, but then when it changes to you, all right,
now blocking for a running back, what goes into that?
I mean, you have the design play, but it kind
of depends on what doesn't It depend on what the
defense does in order to figure out which gaps are
going to be open and all that kind of stuff,
and how you go about blocking for guys that are
coming from behind you. Yeah, and that's the crazy thing
(10:17):
about football, right Like, you're always searching for that perfect play,
but at the time, it's never a perfect play, right Like,
at the end of the day, you you go out there,
you're searching for perfection. The play supposed to to hit
between the right guard and the right tackle, and all
of a sudden they slant hard to that side. Now
Row Joe or four net or whoever's got the ball
(10:38):
cuts back hard left where it was not even supposed
to go remotely to that side. But because of what
the defense gave us, that's the route they have to take.
And um, you know, you could end up with big
plays that way, honestly, because now they over pursue strong
and then you've got this huge gap on the week
side that's wide open that they make a good cut
and that's that. But for the most part, you know,
(10:58):
you have a play designed to go a certain gap.
You block for that certain thing. But they get paid
on defense too, right, so you know you can try
your hardest to not let him get in this gap
and he plays over, but you just have to try
and use his force against himself and take him past
the whole move it this way, and now the play
gets back here, goes there. If there's a million different
nuances they can go into this and I could go
(11:20):
on a tangent forever, but that's the basic premise. But
you've got a basic gap that a play is supposed
to design to go to, and you start off blocking
for that specific way. But again you have to take
what the defense gives you well, I mean, and that's
the point in all of this is to kind of
set some light on the fact that there are so
many different nuances that go into this and it's not
(11:40):
just as cut and dry as the people see running
backs suit a gap and they they think they're running
into a pile. They're like, why are they doing that? Well,
that's what was designed to happen, But there are so
many variables in each play that it doesn't always necessarily
work out that way, and if it does work out
that way, then you've got, you know, kind of the
contingencies in place to maybe have a big play at
that point. They gotta understand this too, right, Like, if
(12:02):
there's so many times where players supposed to go here,
but they shut off they shut off that. They shut
off something from this side, which is the right side,
they shut off something from this side, wage is the
left side. So there's really nowhere else to go but
to cram and run into somebody's back and just hope
to get one or two or whatever. Because at the
end of the day, you could pull the old Barry
Sanders move and try and jump cut back and make
(12:23):
a play out of nothing. Then you get minus seven
and then you're in a bad situation. So a lot
of times when you see them running into the backs
of guys are just trying to kind of cram it
up behind somebody and get one. It's just like, hey, listen,
live to fight another day, keep it moving again. That's
excellent insight that I think that people kind of need
to hear. But what separates the offensive lines that are
good at run blocking from the ones that are maybe
(12:45):
just average, Like what can you do as a unit
that makes you better than everyone practice? I mean, honestly,
that's that's the key. Like, uh, you know, I was
fortunate enough to play for the Gary Kubiak, the Kyle Shanahan,
that whole scheme system which is predicated on the run game.
Like all they do is run the zone scheme and
they run it over and over and over and over
and over again until they get great at it, right,
(13:07):
And that's the Terrell Davis is of the Denver Broncos
of the nineties when Elway and then won the Super Bowl,
and then you know they were good with Baltimore couple
of years ago, and then you know the Houston Texans
with Arian Foster, the Minnesota Vikings of recent the forty niners, right, Like,
they're very good running teams every year, year in and
year out, and they literally just work, work, work on
(13:29):
that run game. So I think that's the biggest thing. Now,
you know, there's other teams that believe much more in
a balance attack. I e s right, and um, you know,
so we spent you know, let's say you have I
don't know, thirty minutes to work individual stuff. You're splitting it.
You're work in fifteen minutes or fifteen minutes there, and
you know you end up getting pretty good at both, right,
(13:50):
And that's the thing. But they really, really, you know
the five point oh yards per carry teams every year,
they're the ones that just they just do the same
things over and over and over again until they get
great at it. And then going into being the fact
that we are so balanced, Bucks are so balanced, they're
one of those teams that's super balanced. Then past protection
comes in to play. What are kind of some of
(14:11):
the things that you have to keep in mind even
as a center, as a tackle, like how do you
keep a quarterback safe? And what kind of and I
think even what can a quarterback do to alleviate some
of the stress off of an offensive line, because I
don't think people realize that what the quarterback does heavily
impacts how well you guys are able to protect him.
(14:31):
The game has changed quite a bit since I came
into the league, and it kind of works and cycles, right.
It were like when I first came in, it was
all the d lines were huge, and then it when J. J.
Watt kind of changed everything, right, Like when he came
in it was like, oh, there's this big guy, but
he's also freakishly athletic, right, and then you start seeing
the baron Donald to the world and all of them
coming in, and then it's like, now it's become a
(14:52):
speed game. Right, So alluding to your last point, the
quarterback and get rid of the ball quick, right, I
mean that's that helped u an offensive line tenfold, right, Like,
and I know they put those next gen stats up there.
It's like time till the ball got released or whatever,
and it's like two point two seconds, Like that makes
an offensive line's job a thousand percent easier. So we
(15:12):
love when that happens. The seven steps, the deep shots,
it's like, oh, man, we gotta hold up forever against
these guys who are freakish. We gotta literally walk backwards
trying to stop some of the biggest freaks in the
world going forward full speed, right, And that's that's the
world we live in his offensive linement. And it's like
you could beat the heck out of somebody for sixty
(15:33):
eight out of seventy plays, but those two plays you
give up a second, it's like you're the worst game
of your life. On the contrary, that same person got
his head beat in for seventy plays, but he had
two sacks and he's defensive player of the week, right,
So that's that's also the world is offensive linement you
live in. But I guess the big thing is is
just understanding your scheme, understanding the offensive line and what
(15:58):
they're trying to get accomplished in past two action, and
understanding where your quarterback is gonna set up, understanding his drop.
There's you know, so many things that go into that
underlike the tackles need to know that how deep you
know they can go based on the drop of the
quarterback because if they go too deep now they give
the under to somebody else to get right there. Right,
So there's so many different nuances from that aspect and
(16:18):
understanding the schemes and I just understand where your help
is in past protection. Those are all things that go
into um, you know, when a guy's uncovered and knowing
that he can help here and that guy who is
covered knowing where he has helped from. Those are all
things that go in to keep the quarterback clean on
a week to week help meaning like the tight ends
are running back there in they're helping, meaning for instance,
like if I'm a center right and I'm sliding to
(16:42):
my right, I got a defensive lineman here, I got
a defensive lineman the over Kappa. So Ali's gotta block
this guy. Cap has gotta block this guy, and Jensen
is uncovered right and if his guy who's maybe a
linebacker doesn't come now he can help Ali or help Caps.
And like if they know that now they can set
a certain way knowing like okay, cool, we can we
(17:03):
can two on one this guy or vice versa. See,
this is exactly why I asked, Um, you've played in
a few different schemes. You've in fact played for Bruce
Arians though at four different teams, which is pretty crazy,
but that means that you've had four different quarterbacks maybe more. Um,
you've played with a bunch of different defense or offensive
(17:24):
linemen around you. I just want to know kind of
anything stick out about some of the first of all,
tell me a few of the guys that you've snapped too,
and then something that maybe sticks out about them that
either major job easier, maybe maybe major job harder. Um,
I think I'm just really interested to know with all
your experience to answer the first question. So quarterbacks. I
(17:46):
started off Ben Roethlisberger, and I went to Michael Vick,
and then I went to Andrew Luck, Joe Flacco, Carson Palmer, Um,
Sam Bradford, Kyler Murray, Tom Brady. So I had a
(18:10):
pretty good list of guys that I've been able to
snap two and learn from as well, because honestly, I've
learned more from about the game of football from the
quarterbacks I've been around in the way that they see
the game and just it's it's so different than the
way of the offensive alignment see the game. So it's
it's been good to be around some of them, including
(18:30):
some of the some of the backups I've had to
and Drew Stanton, Matt Hasselbeck, Right, I mean, these are
all big names that have played a long time. So
I've been around some really good ones offensive alignment wise,
hands down to best I've ever been around. Marshall Yonda
will be a first ballot Hall of Famer from Baltimore,
and Jason Peters early in my career will be a
first ballot Hall of Famer. Two of the best I've
ever been around. Um, this is as good of a
(18:53):
group as I've been around. From left to right. I mean, honestly,
I'm not even kidding when I say that, Like you're
not biased, No I've been. I mean honestly, like you don't.
It's very rare that you invest in an offensive line
the way that we have in this in in this organization,
and from left to right. I mean, Tristan is going
to be an absolute stud already, is I mean that
you can put him. I mean honestly, he's up there, Donovan,
(19:15):
you know, obviously paid to be a great left act
when he is. And then the middle three are all
well compensated and very good football players. So across the
board you've got five really good players, and as a group,
they play really well together. I think it was something
it was interesting to hear you say that you've learned
so much from the quarterback too, And that was one
thing I want to talk to you about as well,
because I think it varies from team to team too.
(19:36):
Is that center quarterback relationship? Because I feel like when
you watch a game, you'll see a center kind of
stand up. He'll point here, he'll point there, he'll do
these things. What is he doing when he does that?
And tell me about kind of that dynamic between the
center and the quarterback before the ball is even snapped.
There's a lot that goes into it. There's a lot
that goes into it, and there and the whole communication
(19:56):
things crazy, and it happens so fast, Like when I
tell so many people are just like, oh, it's just
a bunch of jocks out there just running into each
other and scoring touchdowns right like it's it's a chess match.
From play one to play seventy. And you're sitting there
and the defense is trying to confuse the offense. And
(20:18):
now the quarterbacks making this call or making this switch,
And so when you see all that pointing, it could
be it could be as simple as these pointing who
we're going to. It could be as simple as a
bluff point to who we're Maybe we're making them think
we're going to and we're not. It could be as
simple as we come up. We we had everything under
what we're doing. The defense shows something different. Now the
(20:41):
quarterback makes a check and then meaning a change in
the play, a change in the protection of change and
the way we're going. It could be whatever it could be.
And then instantly, within two seconds, the center's got to
get everybody else on a new page, and then within
another two seconds set up ball snapped, right. So it's
(21:01):
there's a lot of moving parts and it's got to happen.
That's why you gotta have a cohesive group that can
kind of move and adapt on the fly. So when
a quarterback makes those checks, or maybe even the center
can make those checks. At at some point, say he
calls out the mic linebacker, what what does that do?
Why why are you calling out the mic linebacker versus
(21:21):
I don't know, a safety, a defensive lineman, someone like that.
So just just like we talked about quarterbacks, right, the
mic linebackers the quarterback of the defense, right, So they
they're the ones getting everybody on the right page. They're
the ones that are kind of setting the strength in
the formation in that whole world. Right, So most of
what we do is predicated off that. That doesn't necessarily
mean that's that's who we're going to, but that could
(21:42):
be the starting point. So nineties of ten, you want
to know who the mic is the middle linebacker, because
then you know the strength is obviously to the right
or the strength is to the left depending on formation
or play. And then the will, which is the weak
side is the other way right, So and then that
that's that's basically who wend to wanna as an offensive line,
they're like, we're going to handle. That's part of the
(22:04):
big numbers that when we talk to seven big numbers,
you have the for d, Lineman, Sam, the Mic, and
the will right. So that's that's kind of our world
that we live in. So that usually at least puts
us as a starting point to who we're you know,
who we're going to point as the middle and then
we can we can determine based on the play who
we're going to from there. So it basically provides almost
like a template, yeah, for how you guys are gonna
(22:27):
how you guys are gonna set up? Um? Well, uh
And one last question for you, just because you've made
this transition, now, what's the biggest difference in being a
coach versus being a player? Oh? I mean there's so
many differences. I mean it's I guess, to start off,
when it's ninety four and humid outside, I don't have
(22:50):
panic attacks to night before wondering if I'm gonna make
it through. I just have to go real outside. It
is in the humidity. It's only gonna keep getting more real. Um.
But I guess, you know, honestly, I mean it's just
I kind of all always thought and I think the
coaches will say the same thing. They always kind of
(23:10):
felt like I was more of like a coach on
the field, like the way that I thought of it
and the way like I always was on the same
page with the way that they saw the game. And
so from that standpoint, the transition has been very easy.
I mean I was I kind of always thought that way.
I guess the differences is now it's a lot more
you know, film breakdown, putting together tapes, all the you know,
(23:32):
in office stuff, which I've never been in an office
in my entire life. So I just walking you over here.
This is the first time you ever on this part
of the build. Yeah, I don't I'm trying to get
out of here in the the next two minutes, just I
don't have to spend time and a place that I'm
unfamiliar with. Um. But yeah, I mean, I guess that's
the biggest difference, right, It's just doing the paperwork, doing
(23:54):
you know, the drawings, doing the computer work, all that stuff.
And I mean, when it comes down to being on
the field and coaching. As a player, I always try
to take that upon myself and you know, do the
same thing when I was a center, whether it was
helping out a guard or if I didn't if I
saw something they didn't see, it was. It was very
much similar to the kind of the way I was
as a player as well. So that on the field
(24:15):
stuff is the easy part. It's it's now the the
office and computer stuff. Well, good luck with that. I
will I will put you out of your misery right now.
But I wanted to thank you so much for taking
the time to do this. For sure, you didn't get
things being an offensive lineman in this league. I'm going
to give you things now. We're going to give your appreciation.
Hopefully those listening now have a new appreciation for what
(24:38):
offensive linemen have to go through every play of every
game for an entire season. So until next time, I'm
Buck Staff fier Cormon Vitality. Thank you so much for
joining me, and I will tell you this
So you think you know football, come find out straight
from the source in the Booth Review podcast, where we
take you inside the offices of the Bucks assistant coaches
to talk some football fundamentals. Get your white boards ready.
Here's Bucketeers staff writer Carmen Vitality today's episode. I am
lucky enough to be joined by offensive assistant and newly
(00:23):
retired NFL center a Q Shipley Q. Thank you so
much for joining us today. Thanks for having me. I'm
really excited about this because not only have you had
you had a very long career in the NFL as
a player, but you have now immediately switched to coaching.
But before I even talked about that, you're kind of
(00:44):
a pro at this too. Yeah, I do okay with this.
I mean, my best friend from since two thousand twelve,
Pat McAfee has one of the biggest podcasts probably in
the world, I guess at this point now, and I
didn't know what I wanted to do when I was
done playing, so he kind of got me started. Whether
it started with interviews at first, then it's gotten into
(01:05):
um I actually like send my co host hockey podcast
under his umbrella and gotten kind of a good feel
for hosting, at least if I ever wanted to do that.
So UM grateful for him for giving me those opportunities
to at least be comfortable on a mike. If and
when I ever decided to go that route. I have
big expectations for you because I think the other guys
(01:27):
that I've had so far that was like this was
their first podcast. But it also puts me under a
lot more pressure to deliver here. Yeah, you gotta you
gotta lead the charge. If I'm doing a bad job hosting,
I'm just gonna defer to you. Perfect, perfect, All right, Well,
I do want to get into today's topic with you,
which is not in fact hockey. You're gonna have to
talk about some football and you're gonna have to talk
(01:47):
about some offensive line stuff because they're saying, like, I
don't feel like the offensive line gets the credit there
due I always kind of try to be an advocate
for the big boys, and I think a lot of
it stems from the that people just don't understand everything
that goes into playing the position. So I want to
start real basic first. And I'm sure people most people
(02:10):
know this this kind of stuff, but I just want
to make sure that we're laying the groundwork properly. Talk
to me about the structure of the offensive line. You
are an NFL center for years. I feel like it
starts there, go from there. What How how do you
structure the line? There are five guys on the line.
How is it all stuck? Certain? Yeah, so centers the
guy in the middle of the guy snaps the ball
of the quarterback, and then on each side of him,
(02:32):
you got a left guard in the right guard, a
left tech on the right tech one and typically not always,
but typically kind of you get taller as you work
your way out right. And I've always always get the
jokes in the offensive line because I was the short guy.
But um centers usually in that like six one to
six three range. Your guards are in that six two
to six five range. And then you're tackles got the
(02:55):
longer levels. They're the ones going against the fastest guys
the speed rush. There's the shack bearts, the jpps, and
need the long arms need to be super athletic because
they're going against guys that are probably the biggest freaks
on the field. Right, and then the interior guys are
the ones that are kind of keeping the depth of
the pockets of the quarterback can step up and do
(03:15):
what he does and pick apart defenses. Yeah, so there's
nu ones that's kind of each position. So like what
makes an ideal center, what makes an ideal guard, what
makes an ideal tackle? Yeah, I guess in my in
my opinion, I would say, you know, centers have to
be probably the smartest guy. Right they're the ones that
are the quarterback of the offensive line. They're relaying all
(03:36):
the information they're getting, they're coming up, they're making the
middle linebacker point, which is basically predicated um on exactly
who we're going to or who we're working away from whatever.
And then almost every single play, whether it's run or
past so starts there. And then you like him to
be tough, You like him to be athletic because he's
gotta get out and run, get to the second level,
(03:56):
do that whole world. Guards are usually a little bigger.
UM want them to be smart obviously too, but you
know they're they're your they're your run blockers there at
the point of attack and most of your runs, they're
getting things starred in the run game. They're also um
in past protection there one on one a lot in
the back side, so you've got to have good pass
protectors at guard as well. Centers obviously can get a
little more help, you know, if they have a shade.
(04:17):
The guards kind of a sideboard form one way or another,
so they're not in one on one situations as much. Um,
left tackles the blind side on most quarterbacks because most
quarterbacks are righty, So that's your guy that needs to
be your best pass protector. Um and then right tackle
obviously again he gets putting one on one situations a
lot as well. And um, yeah, that's kind of the
(04:38):
whole nuances of the the whole group. Well, that was
something interesting to see that you touched on because you
hear the blind side and I mean there's a whole
movie made about it, but that basically references the fact
that if a quarterback's right hand at his back is
to that side, so he can't see who's coming, he
can't sense the press or maybe he can, but he's
not he doesn't have eyes on that pressor so you
have to kind of be his eyes and ears as
(04:59):
that left tackle. In most cases, if your quarterback the
left hander, then it might be the right then it
will be the right tackle on that side. And I
actually have a question in those cases, would a guy
that maybe typically played the left tackle, would he switch
over to the right because of that? No, that's that's
the interesting thing, right. It's like if you're if you're
Donovan Smith guy, it's so bizarre, like centers are always
(05:21):
balanced right, they have to go left, they have to
go right. But if you're a left tack where you're
in a stance that literally your left legs way back,
then you're right right, So your hips getting these positions.
I've talked to so many guys that have tried to
make that transition when they've been in a left stance
their whole career, and then they go to the right,
and it's like their hips don't work the same, one
like stronger than the other. It's a whole different world.
(05:42):
So um, you just have to, hopefully, I guess, in
that situation, find the best right tackle in the league
to try and you know, since it's only going to
be a handful of left handed quarterbacks, try and find
that best right hand or right side tackle. Well. And
that leads me into another thing where I feel like
we take for granted or at least maybe the massive
tape for granted, because you hear so many scouting reports,
even scouts will be like, oh, yeah, well he played
(06:04):
right tackle, but where we think he could be at
the left, or like when the guys are coming out
of college, that transition isn't I think that's easier said
than done, right, like having to make those adjustments and
basically mirror what you're used to doing. I mean, if
I tried to write with my left hand and I'm
a right e that's a lot that's not that's not easy. Look,
(06:24):
I think, uh, I think as coaches, now that I'm
in that role, I think we um tend to think
things are easier than maybe they are a lot of times, right,
like you hear all these times with this guard that's
never snapped the ball, we'll make him a center. Right.
It's until you put a ball between your legs and
have to blog vitave. It's a whole different world, right,
(06:44):
like the and the and I think a lot of
times we take that for granted or vice versa. You know,
you got this great guy that's coming out of college.
He's been a right tackle, right tackle, right tack. When
it's like, okay, we're gonna make him are starting left tag,
We're gonna draft him wherever, and it's like, who knows
if that's gonna work. He's never been in that situation.
He's never been on the left side right Like, So,
I think there's there's always these situations where we think
(07:06):
it's way easier than it is in cases, and grantedge
sometimes it pans out and sometimes it doesn't. But that's
that's part of the nature of this business. I think
it makes it even more impressive when you hear of
guys that have done both in college, or play both
sides in college or something like that. Um, but you
mentioned a few while in those explanations, you mentioned who's
the best pass protector? Who's that I want to get into.
So the offensive line is very unique in that all
(07:28):
five guys have to work for the same purpose. They
also line up the same place relatively every single snap,
but they're not doing the same thing on every single down.
The main duties of the offensive line what pass protection,
run blocking to main So what goes into that though,
Like when you when you say pass protection, I feel
(07:50):
like a lot of people here say, for instance, five
man protection. Yes, there's five guys on the field, but
it doesn't necessarily mean that. It's not that simplistic, is
what I'm trying to get that. So what does that mean?
How do you go just about describing past text are
kind of learning what the differences are between that, and
then say, if it is a run play you're run blocking,
(08:10):
what are the differences there? Yeah, So I mean I
think in most I mean I'll start with the defense first, right,
So in most defensive cases there's there's four down linemen
or there's three down linemen. But in most cases guy
with his hand on the ground, with his hands in
the ground defensive lineman, the big guys, right. And the
way I always think of it is like the offensive
line and the running back, or the offensive line, the
(08:31):
tight end, depending on different protection schemes, whatever it may be,
are going to handle some form of the six or
seven big numbers. Right, So all your dbs are all
wearing twenty numbers or now in the new rules, could
be single digit numbers, right, But they're all lower numbers. Right.
So the bigger numbers, for the most part, are going
(08:52):
to be your nineties, your fifties, your sixties, seventies, those
I call those big numbers. Right, So we're gonna hand
the six, seven, five, whatever it could be depending on
the protection. We're gonna handle that many numbers of big numbers,
and you know, the skill guys are gonna have to
handle the corners and the defensive guys, right, we don't
(09:13):
have to worry about them for the most part. Um
Again speaking in basic terms here, but that's that's the
basic premise, right. So in a five man protection, you
got the five officer alignment, there's usually five receivers going
out for a route, or you know, or the running
backs leaving and going out for a route. So we
literally have to handle, you know, the five most dangerous guys.
That's basically what it comes down to. In in some
(09:34):
cases they bring six, then that's when you hear hot route.
Quarterback has to throw hot her vice versa. Right, But
we're going to handle the five most dangerous. So I
think the biggestincts in there is it doesn't have to
do with the offensive line having five men on it.
It has to do with how many guys you're blocking, correct, Which, yeah,
that's that's kind of the distinction I wanted to make
there because I think that's pretty that can be misunderstood
(09:56):
at times, but then when it changes to you, all right,
now blocking for a running back, what goes into that?
I mean, you have the design play, but it kind
of depends on what doesn't It depend on what the
defense does in order to figure out which gaps are
going to be open and all that kind of stuff,
and how you go about blocking for guys that are
coming from behind you. Yeah, and that's the crazy thing
(10:17):
about football, right Like, you're always searching for that perfect play,
but at the time, it's never a perfect play, right Like,
at the end of the day, you you go out there,
you're searching for perfection. The play supposed to to hit
between the right guard and the right tackle, and all
of a sudden they slant hard to that side. Now
Row Joe or four net or whoever's got the ball
(10:38):
cuts back hard left where it was not even supposed
to go remotely to that side. But because of what
the defense gave us, that's the route they have to take.
And um, you know, you could end up with big
plays that way, honestly, because now they over pursue strong
and then you've got this huge gap on the week
side that's wide open that they make a good cut
and that's that. But for the most part, you know,
(10:58):
you have a play designed to go a certain gap.
You block for that certain thing. But they get paid
on defense too, right, so you know you can try
your hardest to not let him get in this gap
and he plays over, but you just have to try
and use his force against himself and take him past
the whole move it this way, and now the play
gets back here, goes there. If there's a million different
nuances they can go into this and I could go
(11:20):
on a tangent forever, but that's the basic premise. But
you've got a basic gap that a play is supposed
to design to go to, and you start off blocking
for that specific way. But again you have to take
what the defense gives you well, I mean, and that's
the point in all of this is to kind of
set some light on the fact that there are so
many different nuances that go into this and it's not
(11:40):
just as cut and dry as the people see running
backs suit a gap and they they think they're running
into a pile. They're like, why are they doing that? Well,
that's what was designed to happen, But there are so
many variables in each play that it doesn't always necessarily
work out that way, and if it does work out
that way, then you've got, you know, kind of the
contingencies in place to maybe have a big play at
that point. They gotta understand this too, right, Like, if
(12:02):
there's so many times where players supposed to go here,
but they shut off they shut off that. They shut
off something from this side, which is the right side,
they shut off something from this side, wage is the
left side. So there's really nowhere else to go but
to cram and run into somebody's back and just hope
to get one or two or whatever. Because at the
end of the day, you could pull the old Barry
Sanders move and try and jump cut back and make
(12:23):
a play out of nothing. Then you get minus seven
and then you're in a bad situation. So a lot
of times when you see them running into the backs
of guys are just trying to kind of cram it
up behind somebody and get one. It's just like, hey, listen,
live to fight another day, keep it moving again. That's
excellent insight that I think that people kind of need
to hear. But what separates the offensive lines that are
good at run blocking from the ones that are maybe
(12:45):
just average, Like what can you do as a unit
that makes you better than everyone practice? I mean, honestly,
that's that's the key. Like, uh, you know, I was
fortunate enough to play for the Gary Kubiak, the Kyle Shanahan,
that whole scheme system which is predicated on the run game.
Like all they do is run the zone scheme and
they run it over and over and over and over
and over again until they get great at it, right,
(13:07):
And that's the Terrell Davis is of the Denver Broncos
of the nineties when Elway and then won the Super Bowl,
and then you know they were good with Baltimore couple
of years ago, and then you know the Houston Texans
with Arian Foster, the Minnesota Vikings of recent the forty niners, right, Like,
they're very good running teams every year, year in and
year out, and they literally just work, work, work on
(13:29):
that run game. So I think that's the biggest thing. Now,
you know, there's other teams that believe much more in
a balance attack. I e s right, and um, you know,
so we spent you know, let's say you have I
don't know, thirty minutes to work individual stuff. You're splitting it.
You're work in fifteen minutes or fifteen minutes there, and
you know you end up getting pretty good at both, right,
(13:50):
And that's the thing. But they really, really, you know
the five point oh yards per carry teams every year,
they're the ones that just they just do the same
things over and over and over again until they get
great at it. And then going into being the fact
that we are so balanced, Bucks are so balanced, they're
one of those teams that's super balanced. Then past protection
comes in to play. What are kind of some of
(14:11):
the things that you have to keep in mind even
as a center, as a tackle, like how do you
keep a quarterback safe? And what kind of and I
think even what can a quarterback do to alleviate some
of the stress off of an offensive line, because I
don't think people realize that what the quarterback does heavily
impacts how well you guys are able to protect him.
(14:31):
The game has changed quite a bit since I came
into the league, and it kind of works and cycles, right.
It were like when I first came in, it was
all the d lines were huge, and then it when J. J.
Watt kind of changed everything, right, Like when he came
in it was like, oh, there's this big guy, but
he's also freakishly athletic, right, and then you start seeing
the baron Donald to the world and all of them
coming in, and then it's like, now it's become a
(14:52):
speed game. Right, So alluding to your last point, the
quarterback and get rid of the ball quick, right, I
mean that's that helped u an offensive line tenfold, right, Like,
and I know they put those next gen stats up there.
It's like time till the ball got released or whatever,
and it's like two point two seconds, Like that makes
an offensive line's job a thousand percent easier. So we
(15:12):
love when that happens. The seven steps, the deep shots,
it's like, oh, man, we gotta hold up forever against
these guys who are freakish. We gotta literally walk backwards
trying to stop some of the biggest freaks in the
world going forward full speed, right, And that's that's the
world we live in his offensive linement. And it's like
you could beat the heck out of somebody for sixty
(15:33):
eight out of seventy plays, but those two plays you
give up a second, it's like you're the worst game
of your life. On the contrary, that same person got
his head beat in for seventy plays, but he had
two sacks and he's defensive player of the week, right,
So that's that's also the world is offensive linement you
live in. But I guess the big thing is is
just understanding your scheme, understanding the offensive line and what
(15:58):
they're trying to get accomplished in past two action, and
understanding where your quarterback is gonna set up, understanding his drop.
There's you know, so many things that go into that
underlike the tackles need to know that how deep you
know they can go based on the drop of the
quarterback because if they go too deep now they give
the under to somebody else to get right there. Right,
So there's so many different nuances from that aspect and
(16:18):
understanding the schemes and I just understand where your help
is in past protection. Those are all things that go
into um, you know, when a guy's uncovered and knowing
that he can help here and that guy who is
covered knowing where he has helped from. Those are all
things that go in to keep the quarterback clean on
a week to week help meaning like the tight ends
are running back there in they're helping, meaning for instance,
like if I'm a center right and I'm sliding to
(16:42):
my right, I got a defensive lineman here, I got
a defensive lineman the over Kappa. So Ali's gotta block
this guy. Cap has gotta block this guy, and Jensen
is uncovered right and if his guy who's maybe a
linebacker doesn't come now he can help Ali or help Caps.
And like if they know that now they can set
a certain way knowing like okay, cool, we can we
(17:03):
can two on one this guy or vice versa. See,
this is exactly why I asked, Um, you've played in
a few different schemes. You've in fact played for Bruce
Arians though at four different teams, which is pretty crazy,
but that means that you've had four different quarterbacks maybe more. Um,
you've played with a bunch of different defense or offensive
(17:24):
linemen around you. I just want to know kind of
anything stick out about some of the first of all,
tell me a few of the guys that you've snapped too,
and then something that maybe sticks out about them that
either major job easier, maybe maybe major job harder. Um,
I think I'm just really interested to know with all
your experience to answer the first question. So quarterbacks. I
(17:46):
started off Ben Roethlisberger, and I went to Michael Vick,
and then I went to Andrew Luck, Joe Flacco, Carson Palmer, Um,
Sam Bradford, Kyler Murray, Tom Brady. So I had a
(18:10):
pretty good list of guys that I've been able to
snap two and learn from as well, because honestly, I've
learned more from about the game of football from the
quarterbacks I've been around in the way that they see
the game and just it's it's so different than the
way of the offensive alignment see the game. So it's
it's been good to be around some of them, including
(18:30):
some of the some of the backups I've had to
and Drew Stanton, Matt Hasselbeck, Right, I mean, these are
all big names that have played a long time. So
I've been around some really good ones offensive alignment wise,
hands down to best I've ever been around. Marshall Yonda
will be a first ballot Hall of Famer from Baltimore,
and Jason Peters early in my career will be a
first ballot Hall of Famer. Two of the best I've
ever been around. Um, this is as good of a
(18:53):
group as I've been around. From left to right. I mean, honestly,
I'm not even kidding when I say that, Like you're
not biased, No I've been. I mean honestly, like you don't.
It's very rare that you invest in an offensive line
the way that we have in this in in this organization,
and from left to right. I mean, Tristan is going
to be an absolute stud already, is I mean that
you can put him. I mean honestly, he's up there, Donovan,
(19:15):
you know, obviously paid to be a great left act
when he is. And then the middle three are all
well compensated and very good football players. So across the
board you've got five really good players, and as a group,
they play really well together. I think it was something
it was interesting to hear you say that you've learned
so much from the quarterback too, And that was one
thing I want to talk to you about as well,
because I think it varies from team to team too.
(19:36):
Is that center quarterback relationship? Because I feel like when
you watch a game, you'll see a center kind of
stand up. He'll point here, he'll point there, he'll do
these things. What is he doing when he does that?
And tell me about kind of that dynamic between the
center and the quarterback before the ball is even snapped.
There's a lot that goes into it. There's a lot
that goes into it, and there and the whole communication
(19:56):
things crazy, and it happens so fast, Like when I
tell so many people are just like, oh, it's just
a bunch of jocks out there just running into each
other and scoring touchdowns right like it's it's a chess match.
From play one to play seventy. And you're sitting there
and the defense is trying to confuse the offense. And
(20:18):
now the quarterbacks making this call or making this switch,
And so when you see all that pointing, it could
be it could be as simple as these pointing who
we're going to. It could be as simple as a
bluff point to who we're Maybe we're making them think
we're going to and we're not. It could be as
simple as we come up. We we had everything under
what we're doing. The defense shows something different. Now the
(20:41):
quarterback makes a check and then meaning a change in
the play, a change in the protection of change and
the way we're going. It could be whatever it could be.
And then instantly, within two seconds, the center's got to
get everybody else on a new page, and then within
another two seconds set up ball snapped, right. So it's
(21:01):
there's a lot of moving parts and it's got to happen.
That's why you gotta have a cohesive group that can
kind of move and adapt on the fly. So when
a quarterback makes those checks, or maybe even the center
can make those checks. At at some point, say he
calls out the mic linebacker, what what does that do?
Why why are you calling out the mic linebacker versus
(21:21):
I don't know, a safety, a defensive lineman, someone like that.
So just just like we talked about quarterbacks, right, the
mic linebackers the quarterback of the defense, right, So they
they're the ones getting everybody on the right page. They're
the ones that are kind of setting the strength in
the formation in that whole world. Right, So most of
what we do is predicated off that. That doesn't necessarily
mean that's that's who we're going to, but that could
(21:42):
be the starting point. So nineties of ten, you want
to know who the mic is the middle linebacker, because
then you know the strength is obviously to the right
or the strength is to the left depending on formation
or play. And then the will, which is the weak
side is the other way right, So and then that
that's that's basically who wend to wanna as an offensive line,
they're like, we're going to handle. That's part of the
(22:04):
big numbers that when we talk to seven big numbers,
you have the for d, Lineman, Sam, the Mic, and
the will right. So that's that's kind of our world
that we live in. So that usually at least puts
us as a starting point to who we're you know,
who we're going to point as the middle and then
we can we can determine based on the play who
we're going to from there. So it basically provides almost
like a template, yeah, for how you guys are gonna
(22:27):
how you guys are gonna set up? Um? Well, uh
And one last question for you, just because you've made
this transition, now, what's the biggest difference in being a
coach versus being a player? Oh? I mean there's so
many differences. I mean it's I guess, to start off,
when it's ninety four and humid outside, I don't have
(22:50):
panic attacks to night before wondering if I'm gonna make
it through. I just have to go real outside. It
is in the humidity. It's only gonna keep getting more real. Um.
But I guess, you know, honestly, I mean it's just
I kind of all always thought and I think the
coaches will say the same thing. They always kind of
(23:10):
felt like I was more of like a coach on
the field, like the way that I thought of it
and the way like I always was on the same
page with the way that they saw the game. And
so from that standpoint, the transition has been very easy.
I mean I was I kind of always thought that way.
I guess the differences is now it's a lot more
you know, film breakdown, putting together tapes, all the you know,
(23:32):
in office stuff, which I've never been in an office
in my entire life. So I just walking you over here.
This is the first time you ever on this part
of the build. Yeah, I don't I'm trying to get
out of here in the the next two minutes, just I
don't have to spend time and a place that I'm
unfamiliar with. Um. But yeah, I mean, I guess that's
the biggest difference, right, It's just doing the paperwork, doing
(23:54):
you know, the drawings, doing the computer work, all that stuff.
And I mean, when it comes down to being on
the field and coaching. As a player, I always try
to take that upon myself and you know, do the
same thing when I was a center, whether it was
helping out a guard or if I didn't if I
saw something they didn't see, it was. It was very
much similar to the kind of the way I was
as a player as well. So that on the field
(24:15):
stuff is the easy part. It's it's now the the
office and computer stuff. Well, good luck with that. I
will I will put you out of your misery right now.
But I wanted to thank you so much for taking
the time to do this. For sure, you didn't get
things being an offensive lineman in this league. I'm going
to give you things now. We're going to give your appreciation.
Hopefully those listening now have a new appreciation for what
(24:38):
offensive linemen have to go through every play of every
game for an entire season. So until next time, I'm
Buck Staff fier Cormon Vitality. Thank you so much for
joining me, and I will tell you this
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