Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to NFL Daily, where we are a mortal. I'm
Greg Rosenthal here in the Chris Westling podcast studio, joined
by my friend Jordan Rodrieg.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hello, she's back.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Here, I'm back. We're back in air conditioning.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Big week.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Yeah, you're you're going to be traveling around to training
camps once again, but we have you in the studio
for a couple of shows this week that I'm excited about.
We have Mike Sando, your buddy works at the Athletic
talking about QB tears today and it gave me the
excuse to break out my own QB rankings. I'm getting
(00:42):
boxed in a little bit by QB Island, let's be honest.
Coming back next week, there's some breaking news for you, Steve.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
We've booked Steve Weisch. It'll be excited.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
It's a big get and I love QB Island and
we'll talk about that exercise when we get to it.
But it stopped me kind of from making my own
own QB rankings.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
So love a ranking.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
So me and Mike Sando, representing the fifty gms and
coaches and coordinators that he talked to, will have dueling
quarterback rankings but first, yeah, let's talk about mister a mortal.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
That is the big truck. What do you even call it?
Speaker 1 (01:19):
That Matthew Stafford entered at the RAMS facility on Monday
in lieu of practicing.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
You you can explain it better than I can.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Yeah, and you're done getting your holistic treatment. Yes, and
certain therapies inside that thing that we're showing up for
our YouTube viewers showing on your screen right now, you
can always hitch it up and road trip across the country.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Just looks like a camper. Good call.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
It looks like it looks like an airstream. Now, this
was brought in for the entire team. I was told,
and this is something that, Yes, was the timing poor
that Matthew Stafford just happened to walk into this trailer
for his treatment as practice was starting, as media was
coming out to practice on Monday morning, the day that
(02:08):
Matthew Stafford was supposed to throw in individual drills but
did not, instead walking in full sight into this.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
You know, the timing maybe.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
Couldn't have been a little bit altered there, but it
is what it is. He didn't throw Monday like he
was supposed to.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Couldn't have been better for a mortal though.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Yeah, good pop for a mortal.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I don't know why I say that so awkwardly, but
I don't want to say a mortal, which this show maybe,
or immortal, which this show definitely is not. If you've
listened to the death conversations that Colleen and I have had.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Yeah, big death talk.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
It's all.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
It's the one thing we all have in common. Look,
this worry I've had, this lingering worry about Matthew Stafford.
Felt like it got worse on Monday because it came
after the good news that he actually had this extensive
workout before their preseason game, and then he's supposed to
practice on Monday, and they just said Steve Sean McVay
(03:03):
said that he just wasn't feeling well enough to practice,
and that they're taking it day by day and that
they've discussed what would be the best treatment plan, lots
of different plans, that surgery was not one of them
that he discussed. That was really the newsy part, and
that there's not much more to update.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
But still not throwing, as I said, for they have to.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Be getting a little more concerned in the rams.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
As I said from the start to me personally, the
biggest red flag on all of this is that he's
not getting that joint practice rep time in that is
the most important time that is considered by this team
for the preseason because they don't play starters in the preseason.
That's the most competitive they can get. And they can
also get schematically competitive in ways they're not doing in
the preseason because they don't want people seeing all their
(03:49):
new stuff. So these joint practices were always the most
valuable thing, not just for Matthew Stafford, but for the
collective of teammates around him. And he didn't get but
routes on air and reps on air and install in OTA's,
which he did, which is when he did get time
and was throwing. But he hasn't had those competitive reps yet.
And yes, you know, I hear it, I see it
(04:09):
in the mentions whatever. Yes, he is way more experienced
than needing reps quote unquote, But I will remind you guys,
in twenty twenty two, he missed those practices specifically while
managing the elbow injury, and they were a disaster coming
out of the the chemistry, the timing. There was no
chemistry with the receiver that they brought in, and it's
(04:30):
a very different situation. DeVante Adams is obviously a plus
plus plus player, but this is a situation that I
personally think it's right and fair to be worried about,
even though I will say in all my conversations over
the past few weeks with team sources, they don't seem
worried about his status for Week one and beyond, but
right now things look pretty concerning.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Thanks change a little bit too. I think this would
be qualified as a setback if they were expecting him
to practice and he didn't. A couple quick items of
new as we mentioned the injury to Landon Dickerson on
Sunday Night Show with Nick Schuk. Check that out if
you want all the preseason recaps. It's reportedly a meniscus
injury according to Adam Schefter, but the timeline is unclear.
(05:13):
He's seeking more opinions before they decide on how they
will treat it, and so we'll have to find out.
Another couple of injuries. Unfortunately, Alexander Madison, the backup running
back for the Dolphins, is out for the season with
a neck injury.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
You really hate to hear that. All the best to him.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
And their backfields a little thinner now, he was definitely
gonna make that team. And then the second rookie cornerback
Day three pick for the Ravens was lost for the
season due to a knee injury. This one was reportedly
a torn Ptelton and Robert longerbeam. So they lose a
couple of guys in their secondary I can't wait to
(05:52):
get to this Mike Sando conversation.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
So let's us not wait anymore.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Here is us breaking down the quarterbacks, deciding what are
the ultimate tiers? So excited for this next segment of
the show talking QB tiars Jordan. You may not know this,
but no one in the history of the Internet had
ever ranked quarterbacks before I did with QB Index, at
least not on a weekly basis. I don't fact check
(06:18):
that year after year I was doing it, not doing
it anymore. Nobody is doing it better right now before
the season in a creative, just all encompassing way than
Mike sandom of The Athletic, who dropped his quarterback tiers
on Monday morning, a rare piece of Internet content that
(06:39):
just everyone waits for and then everyone gets angry at
he talks to you a million people from around the league,
and you establish what are the quarterback tiers of twenty
twenty five.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
I'm gonna push back.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
With my own tiers here, Mike, but I am looking
forward to hearing everything that you learned over this process.
Speaker 5 (06:59):
Well, I love it, and I'm going to put down first.
Thanks for having me here. It's been so long since
I've seen you guys on Thursday out at Thaanks camp
but which was great. But I'm going to have a meta.
I've got my results here and I'm going to keep
a column for yours. Greg. I'm going to put him
in there and then we'll see it. And then maybe
if I have time or afterwards, all like say you
were actually closest to this defensive coordinator or whatever, maybe
(07:22):
you'll be Maybe you'll love it. I won't name the name,
but I'll just I'll just see you'll probably be close
to somebody, you know when I talk to fifty heres
will be like someone else's.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Yeah. The name of the game today, Greg versus tears.
I mean, I picture, you know, John Snow in the
epic battle with the broadsword raised against all of the
takes from these fifty executives. Coaches, GMS former GMS league
personnel who have certainly have takes and shared them with
you anonymously. Here for a group of fifty polled for
(07:52):
quarterback tiers. Mike, So thrilled to have you today, so
thrilled to be instigating this entire thing. I'm very excited
to hear more about your process and about some greg
takes on the tiers.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Like back back in the day, you know, when I
was doing Fantasy I love, I love a good tier.
It had a running back column every year, Tiers of Heaven.
That would do great business. Let's just get into it.
Let's let's start with your your tier one, Mike, and
it's Patrick Mahomes and Joe Burrow tied at the very
top of the tier, and then Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson
(08:28):
and Matthew Stafford completing your first tier. What was kind
of the most the most interesting reaction maybe that you
heard of those guys getting into your first tier.
Speaker 5 (08:42):
Well, you know all of them, the first four of Burrow, Mahomes,
Allan and Jackson. You know, we're like overwhelming, you know,
Burrow and Mahomes unanimous, and then Alan and Jackson. You know,
I think they got forty seven and forty six votes
out of fifty and Tier one, so no doubt there.
I think Stafford was one beforehand. You know, when you
get he's highly respected. A lot of people have loved him.
(09:03):
But I think when you're getting older and people have
kind of been waiting, when's that decline going to come?
Certainly he's had some injury issues. Even in camp, he
hasn't practiced. And now this was done before that, But
you know, I could have seen people thinking he was
a little bit descending, whereas you know, he's eleven straight
(09:24):
years in Tier two and he just sort of barely
crossed that line. But I thought that was kind of
a cool thing in this whole thing that I wasn't
you know before, and I wouldn't have guessed that.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
Yeah, Mike, it seems like he got some respect from
the crowd this year, people that you talk to, I
guess I would say what I was surprised about, first
of all, is this didn't happen sooner, especially maybe after
that twenty twenty three season. I'm more surprised it happened
now after I think anyone who watched Stafford himself would
agree this was largely a pretty down season for him
(09:57):
back last year, and especially near the end of this season,
he turned it on like we know he can in
the playoffs. So maybe there's some recent city though recency
bias a little bit.
Speaker 5 (10:06):
So well, I would say this. You know, last year
he had twenty one votes in Tier one, which was
a high for him as well. So this year he
went to twenty six. Well, I don't talk to the
exact same fifty people, right, there's turnover in the list,
so this could just be Hey, I mix it up
a little bit and he got you know, five more votes,
and so he just he was just on the other
(10:27):
side of the line. Now he moved over. I don't
think this is a universal, depplicated doation that he's finally
Tier one. He just, you know, he just moved across
the border. He was close to the border, you know,
and I think people rightfully have had him as a
high tier two quarterback, so.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Creaked over to the other side.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
But yeah, yeah, I'm reading I'm reading too much into it.
Speaker 5 (10:48):
Go Greg like to me, like to me, like it
would be misleading to say that, you know, Lamar Jackson
just finally you know, uh, you know, cracked top tier.
No he overwhelmingly went to the top, whereas I think
that Stafford just sort of, you know, moved. He was
(11:10):
living near the border and he moved two blocks away
and now he's in a different zip code that's more exclusive.
But he's the same guy.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
That's how it's I just disagree that he is the
same guy. Though I don't think he was great last year.
I think last year, even the narrative didn't make sense.
Everyone's like he picked it up at the end of
the year, did he?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
He was?
Speaker 1 (11:28):
He was the weather game in San Francisco wasn't great.
Was not great against the Jets that was Week six.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
He played poorly at the end of the year, played right.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
But he didn't play well in the Eagles game. The
Eagles game, to me until the very up was a fiasco.
But he had like four turn.
Speaker 5 (11:44):
I think though they were he had him on that
final drive feeling like hey this.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Yeah, that's what everyone remembers. But I remember the season
in the weeks before that. So I'm going to debut
my first tier. But first, I do want to have
a quote, because you do such a good job reporting
this out.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
I don't want these to get lost.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
You had a quote from a defensive coordinator that said,
I guarantee all your ones for Stafford came from offensive coaches.
Offensive coaches kissed this guy's ass all the time, especially
guys from that system. He's really good, though. I would
take him over Herbert because it's a better passer with
better time. Yeah, I get all that, and I just
love that quote. So I'm gonna put up my tier now.
And my tier is the same, except it's it's one
(12:21):
name smaller. Stafford is not in there. Spoiler alert. He's
not in my tier two either. I think he's coming
off of his bad his worst year, and I have
a smaller tier too. I had a little different order
Lamar just because back to back years I think he's
been the best player, so we know why not be
number one? Mahomes, Allen and Burrow. But not a lot
of disagreements. There's let's go to your tier two, which
(12:42):
is a massive tier, and it starts with Jayden Daniels.
It goes to Herbert Goff, C J Stroud, Jalen Hurts, Baker, Mayfield,
Dak Prescott, Jordan Love, and Brock Purdy. Very interesting where
that is where the dividing line is and we'll get
into tier three, which starts with Kyler Murray, but Jayden.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
At the very top of tier two. Herbert up next.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
It's really fascinating the goth you know, Stafford, you know
to think about them too.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
I had to doing this exercise.
Speaker 5 (13:14):
C J.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Stroud still getting a lot of love, Hurts in the
top ten, and then Baker really rising in this exercise.
It wraps up with Dak and Jordan. You are loving
how high Baker is.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
I know, I love this.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
I'm the captain of the Baker Brigade, you know, I
absolutely love that Baker is getting a little respect after
one of the best seasons we've ever if not the
best season we've ever seen him play. Yes, erratic at times,
but statistically produced and willed that team to win. I
agree with those executives and GMS and coaches that you
spoke with on that one.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Mike.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
I have to also say it seems like a nod
of respect and understanding of the situation around c. J.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Stroud that he retained his tier.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
What did you pick up from talking to people about
him specifically.
Speaker 5 (13:57):
Yeah, I think that people did blame more of what
was around him and acknowledge that their receiver injuries. The
offensive line obviously was a big issue. Now he could
have handled it better, but I mean he really I
think last year he had a dozen Tier one votes,
so he goes down to one Tier one vote. I
think don't think anyone was willing to say he overcame
(14:18):
it as well as a Tier one guy would, but
I think it would. Here's one thing about the tiers.
I feel like there's like a delayed reaction component to
it where they the voters, and you know, at worst
it's people holding onto their priors, but at best it's
not overreacting. You know, it's like, hey, we saw great
stuff from CD trout last year that happened, and there
(14:39):
were some things this year. Now last year, well it
doesn't put him in Tier one like the whole group didn't.
He didn't get fifty Tier ones, and then this year
he gets only one. To me, that would be all
over the place. This is like a this is a reasoned. Hey,
you know we're doing this exercise. You know, I'm not
calling anyone for this till after the draft, so we're
(15:01):
not doing this like in February. First, when everyone's reacting
to the season, you get an off season to kind
of think about it and put it in perspective, and
so he you know, he inched down a little bit,
but it wasn't just like a wholesale selling the stock
of CJ. Stroud. I think people could kind of see
what happened.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Yeah, I completely agree with how some of the respondents
felt about him. You had a defensive coordinator that that
point out he can carry a team that he's special
because you know, he could throw from the pocket, he
can throw off schedule, he's been good with games online.
I loved hearing that, and my tiers I think loved
Stroud even more so. This is where we differ a
bit and we can get into a bunch of different
(15:39):
players here, but just for comparison in the end, by
the way, Burrow was like such a solid fourth to me,
I don't think he quite belongs with the other three,
but I didn't want to separate him.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
He's obviously so excellent. That's Tier one.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
So for me, I only had four guys in my
Tier two because to me, that was where the drop
off was for me who I would want.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
I just looked at it like, who are the best
who I would want? This year?
Speaker 1 (16:00):
I had justin Herbert fifth, Jaden Daniels next. You know,
I just have to see something bad to believe he'll
ever do something bad. Dak Prescott, who I just if
he's on the field, I feel comfortable, is a huge
difference maker. And then ultimately I had the same faith
in CJ. Stroud that a lot of your respondents did,
and I thought there was like a little bit of
a drop off just in my heart Mike Sando after that,
(16:23):
And so that's where I stopped it right there with
tier two.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
Yeah, the quarterbacks, Greg already does not like, did not
make it into Tier two.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
What does that mean? No, that's not true.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
I'm evaluating like what I think is going to be
this year. And I was a little surprised how much
Dak got dinged that that I was so much higher
than consensus on Dak for instance. Well, but I don't
know if anything stands out to you, that's my period tears.
Speaker 5 (16:47):
Yeah, yeah, Dak stands out to me, because you know,
we forget that in twenty twenty three, I mean, he
had a really good season. I think he was very
high in MVP voting. Was he like second MVP voting?
He was high? Yes, I think I saw that on
when I looked at a Pro Football Reference and it
was like, you know, but I think there's also a
(17:08):
lot of Dak fatigue that Hey, even if he has
a good year, you know at the end they're going
to be one and done in the playoffs and he's
just not going to do it. And so I actually
think it's good that he didn't fall more like, like,
I just you know that that fatigue factor someonime's with
a guy who doesn't get over the top, And just like,
(17:28):
how excited are you about Dak Prescott in any one
year if you've been covering the legal.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
Wellout the same, Yeah, I mean I trust him about
the same every year.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
It's not his fault though that he plays for the Cowboys,
and I think there's been an element where at times
he's helped out by the talent around him, and at
times he's overcoming some of the shortcomings of the organization.
And I give him a lot of credit. When I
look at those four guys, for me personally, I'm like,
I could put them in almost any situation, and I
think they're really elevating it, whereas the other guys are
(17:58):
maybe a little more situation a risk dependent at least
for me, I buy that too.
Speaker 5 (18:04):
I think that's not a bad way of thinking. Like,
one of the surprises to me was that, you know,
Jared Goff moved up and did so well when it
would have been really easy to say, oh, guess what
they're losing Ben Johnson, and you know he Sean McVay
soured on him earlier. I could have seen people that
have not given GoF that much credit over the years
(18:27):
having a reason to not give it to him this year,
and that didn't happen at all. He got five votes
in Tier one.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
I mean, by the way, someone surprising someone I'm pointing
to right now raised his hand. So, Mike, I do
want to say I love what you dug up quotes
wise about Jared Goff in this tier because I wondered
when I knew kind of you were working toward this
and this was going to come out, I wondered if
there would be some extra context that people are starting
to see with Jared Goff because he is taking more
(18:55):
command of the offense, He's doing more at the line
of scrimmage than he did with Sean McVeigh, and even
with the earlier iterations of Ben Johnson and Mike. I
love this quote that you got from an executive. You
will see this year if it is the quarterback or
if it is the coordinator or the quarterback. But I
think it has been more the quarterback than advertised. And
I love that you're getting that nuance now as he's matured,
(19:18):
as Jared Goff has matured.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Through his career, because you could very much see that
last year.
Speaker 5 (19:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I thought. You know, I'm also curious
to see what happens there. You know, I have the
Lions peaked in some way. It could be it could
be a little harder for him, but I agree, like
when I was looking up not that we go with
who has the most touchdown pass He has the most
touchdown passes in the league last three years, right, And
that's like if I had asked you that, would you
have guessed Goff? You know, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Maybe and you have you have a couple of respondents
who believe that, like, look, he is the top of
the top, Yeah, that he should be in level one
like you mentioned. And I think one of the notes
that I agree with that Goff and Burrow, one of
your head coaches, that are our best at anticipation and
from a pure quarterback standpoint, and that is why he
went number one overall. I do think like the comparisons
(20:09):
to Joe Montana, like it if you were the very
best of Jared Goff, like, I can see that the
reason I had him in the third tier was is
that going to work in every system?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Maybe that's an unfair way.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
To rank him. You had him eighth. Ultimately it wasn't
too different. Let's just put up my third tier, which
is where I went really big. I could even call
this two point five because by the way that you
you know evaluate tiers, I think it'd be more two
point five like in terms of.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
The way, oh he's changing the tiers because you have
certain evaluation.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
This is my third tier.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
But the way that you said that he's lifting a
team or not, this is where I went hurts Goff.
So that's nine, ten eleven for Stafford brock Purty. This
is where I get Gino in ahead of Baker, Drake
may who I feel very strongly about this year to
a tongue of Iloa, Kyler and Trevor Lawrence are all
one big tier for me. And this is really based
(21:03):
on I actually didn't think Goff and Stafford had as
good twenty twenty four's as they didn't in twenty twenty three.
And you know he Goff didn't have a great playoff
game either, with the turnover where he plays against the Commanders.
Everyone kind of, you know, forgets about that. But ultimately,
these are guys who are like top ten type of quarterbacks.
I just don't know if they're like changing every single
(21:25):
roster that they're on. Stafford to me was more of
like a he's up some weeks, he's down some weeks.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
Mike, I have a Kyler question for you. But first,
if you'll just pardon pardon me for just one moment.
You are freaking crazy to at minimum have Matthew Stafford
at tier two. At minimum you're putting him in Tier
two and a half. I just cannot I cannot believe
you've just done that. Okay, Mike, So, Kyler, what were
what was surprising or maybe not surprising that you heard
(21:50):
when you were digging up a little bit extra insight
about him. He's in your tiers. He is in tier
three's at the very top of tier three. He got
mostly tier three votes, one tier four vote, thirty two
Tier three votes, seventeen Tier two votes, no Tier one votes.
What did you hear when you were sort of assessing Kyler?
Speaker 5 (22:09):
Yeah, I would say a number one theme has just
been that he should be better in two minutes, and
maybe that comes down to some of those close games
they do or don't win. I thought that was interesting.
I feel like he's been in a little bit of
a holding pattern in the last few years because of injuries,
and so I don't feel like there's a whole bunch
of new fresh on him. One of the things I
looked up just doing my own research, you know, one
(22:32):
of the concepts I do once or twice a year
is I look at the quarterback Betrayal Index, and that's
just basically how much are you betrayed or helped by
your defense and special teams and so like Kyler Murray
over the last three years, I believe he's one of
thirty two quarterbacks with I don't know, twenty five or
(22:52):
more starts something like that, and he's gotten the worst
on an EPA per start basis support from defense, special teams,
and his offensive production during that time of those whatever
thirty two quarterbacks is like thirteenth. Yeah, and I'm not
saying that's all because of Kyler, but I think that
he's somebody who you know they're in ability to win,
(23:14):
and maybe some of that two minute stuff held against him,
maybe rightfully so, But like if he didn't have the
thirty second best you know, support defense, special teams, maybe
he would be one of those guys that has gotten
the playoffs one or two more times, and you know,
maybe he wins one of those games. So I feel
like maybe maybe that as much as anything, could help
(23:36):
him be perceived at least as he low too, because
he certainly has a talent to be that.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Yeah, I think his biggest issue is is kind of
why I knocked Stafford and did knock him down a
little bit. I saw him the top ten or eleven,
but that you weren't exactly sure what you're getting from
a week to week basis, with which I think happens
a lot with older great athletes, like even the best
of all time Lebron is in that stage of his career,
and I think Stafford had some duds last year that
(24:00):
you weren't used to seeing. To me, it was pretty
clearly his worst season in about a decade since a
couple of real lesser seasons, there weren't as many big throws,
and that's why I have a lot of.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Faith in him.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
But when I'm comparing them in this tier to a
Hurtz or a golf it was fascinating to think about
GoF versus Stafford, that they're kind of occupying the same
space right now. And then I got to the very
end of the tier, which to me includes Gino, includes Baker,
includes Purty, includes Kyler, and I want to talk a
little about Trevor Lawrence, and if if any of those
guys kind of finished the head of the rest of
(24:30):
this tier, I personally wouldn't be that surprised. I think
if the situations around them and Kyler, for instance, in
the third year of his offense, just gets a little
more comfortable, a little more consistent. He's got a good
attitude this year. I'm buying the attitude. Then, Like to me,
they're all in roughly the same group where they're providing
an advantage, but they're not the top of the top.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
Yeah, I think it's interesting.
Speaker 4 (24:51):
And what I liked about some of the intel that
you have here, Mike, is that you have people have
talked about a lot about the running threat Kyler does
present in some of these quarterbacks that you have included
here in Tier three, similar sat as similar benefits to them.
They can make plays happen with their legs. They give
you an advantage. I also am buying the fact that
(25:11):
they're going to ask Kyler to do more designed runs.
When I was at Cardinals camp earlier this summer, I
saw a lot of those installs going in, so I
do very much buy that. It is interesting you have
another second year player on here who seem to get
a lot of respect from the people that you talk to,
your panel of fifty, and that's b Nix, And I
think coming into the season that's a little surprise that
(25:34):
maybe would be have been a little bit surprising to people.
But watching him play last season, I'm sure the things
that you heard about him maybe match the tape that
you watched Mike.
Speaker 5 (25:44):
Absolutely plus people are optimistic with him in the Sean
Payton offense that it's going to be good going forward,
So good situation. He had a top five ish defense camp,
but I think that he showed an ability to kind
of make place, you know, on the move, and keep
his eyes downfield and threaten the defense obviously he's a
(26:05):
pretty good runner.
Speaker 4 (26:06):
Two.
Speaker 5 (26:06):
I think people just sort of liked what he was
all about. There was really no red flags on him
or yeah butts or huge concerns. I think there was
a lot of optimism on him. And so when you
look at the twenty twenty four quarterback draft class six
in the first round, it was pretty interesting that while
Caleb Williams was picked number one overall, obviously Jayden Daniels
is number one now of this group, and then it
(26:31):
was and then it was Bo Nicks, and then Drake
May and then Caleb. There's not a lot of separation
between Drake May and Caleb, but I think Bo Nix
there was a lot more optimism now than maybe for
some people coming into his rookie season.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Let's look at that tier three that you're talking about,
that bow Knicks is in, it's Kyler at the top
of it. Then it's Aaron Rodgers Tuas down at seventeen,
which I don't think Dolphins fans will love. Trevor Lawrence
at eighteen. Gino I did, like I know, was at
least I wasn't expecting miracles here, but Gino at least
was ahead of Bo Nicks and Darnold and then the
(27:06):
really young guys Drake May and Caleb Williams staying in
this tier for a minute, I couldn't help. I did
some scouting on you, Mike, come up with some oppo
research a couple of years ago.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
In this very QB tiars.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
I mean, these these geniuses had Lamar Jackson and Trevor
Lawrence all but tied as the seventh and eighth best
quarterbacks in the league. They also had Deshaun Watson in
the same tier as those two guys coming off one
of the worst seasons I've ever seen. It was a
half a season for the Browns, but to me, it
was pretty obvious. So I think that speaks to your
point that maybe they're a little late sometimes to adjust.
(27:45):
But at that point, man, they had Trevor up there
with Lamar, which even at the time I think was
completely insane. There was never a point where I think
those two guys should have looked at the same. But
there is a little fatigue, I believe, with Trevor Lawrence
right now for him to be down below Aaron Rodgers.
I don't think that's true personally, but he's around the
same ranking in my tiers as well, Like, what did
(28:06):
you hear about about Trevor Lawrence?
Speaker 5 (28:08):
Yeah, well, I think there's definite questions about him and
just his consistent accuracy. And another thing that came through
for somebody who was so harolded coming out, like what's
his special trait? What's Trevor Lawrence great at? Is there anything?
And I think that's a tough question to answer.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
It's all things you want him to be great at
because of how he's built.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
That's the thing.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
He's so big and athletic seeming that you you're almost
like projecting what you want him to be versus him
actually showing up and doing that thing. And scouts, Mike,
you know, Greg, you know, scouts fall into this so
often when evaluating prospects coming up in the draft. Is
projecting your want onto somebody who looks the part versus
(28:49):
actually thinking they can fit in and do this. Now,
there's situational things with the organization have not been his fault,
been a disaster in some cases. But I really think
it's interesting you talk to a former GM said he
hasn't proved that he can take the team up a
level or make the team play better than they are
I definitely think Liam Cohen can help him.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
If he is able to be helped. I mean, that
said so much to me.
Speaker 5 (29:15):
Yeah, it's like Liam Cohen, there's more hope for Liam
Cohen than there is for Trevor crazy crazy now when
you go back, yeah, when you go back and take
snapshots from the past, I will say in defense of
some of the voters, like Labarr a couple of years ago,
was coming off injuries and there were questions about him
and all of that, and and Trevor Lawrence had a
good year, you know, so I think there was you know,
(29:37):
there was greater hope for Trevor Lawrence at one point.
And I was disappointed last year, not just in him.
I know he was hurt, but I just felt like,
you know, Doug Peterson wasn't really bringing a lot to
this either. So that's where maybe some of the hope
with the fresh start with Liam Cohen, who's you know,
obviously isn't overly proven at this stage, but there's some
(29:59):
optimism there that maybe, uh, maybe they can be a
little bit more enterprising overall.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
I think that's right.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
But I also think even though Trevor was coming off
a good year, like there was always a little bit
of extra projection on him because of who he was
coming out and the accuracy that I love your your
respondents mentioned has never been there for me, and to
me that's such a basic thing. But he's always just
missed way more throws than you expected. Then again that
that knock of like what is his elite elite trait?
They gave that to Gino too. They're like, he's pretty
(30:26):
good at everything. Nothing stands out as lad. There's not
one x men power where you're like, fit this guy.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
How about research on Greg by the way, big Geno guy.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
I mean, how about when the entire Seattle offensive line
is collapsing and he's throwing a dime with anticipation that
you don't even see coming.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
If nothing else. To me, he pops.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
If you want to knock him, it's there's some ups
and downs where he's a little too aggressive.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
But we are a GM family.
Speaker 5 (30:53):
I kind of liked you. I feel like I kind
of like you know some of that is you know,
we love the story. I mean, we love the story
of Gino, but shoot, Seattle gave up on him. Now
I know they have a new regime, and it wasn't
you know, Pete Carroll not there anymore. But I feel
like Gino the last couple of years, maybe a year ago,
should have been higher than He's like a three point Oh,
(31:14):
he's like a three all the way. And I feel like,
like in a game all l sequel or go with
the guys, I guess, go with the guys ahead of him.
How many the guys ahead of him? In tears would
you better have Gino? Let's just say, for in a
close game in the fourth quarter, I'd take him over
Trevor Lawrence right now, I'd take him over to.
Speaker 4 (31:32):
I'd take him over Rogers, I'd take him over Rogers,
take him over Tyler, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
I would take I would take him at the very
top of this tier.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Yeah, yes, j Jordan's with me.
Speaker 5 (31:43):
Yeah, I kind of like that too. I would have
no problem with him being a little bit higher than that.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
So welcome to the Welcome to the side, Mike.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Yeah, yeah, I know you're not the one voting, You're
not held responsible. I do want to point out, as
I often do my own progress here, that you know
the fact that I've got Baker and Gino right now
to each other.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
G you know what was that?
Speaker 1 (32:01):
But like Baker's right there in the top fifteen. Brock Purty,
I think it's gotten better. He fell in your tiers.
To me, he improved last year, and I think he
deserves to be in that tier two. Let's put up
Let's put up my uh next tier as well. But
to me, Perty, actually, I thought kind of cemented himself
as a as a real guy that's going to be
around for a long time. So I just gave you
(32:23):
that long tier that included Purdy. But let's go to
my third tier.
Speaker 5 (32:27):
Eric.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
The last one was two point five. It gets easy.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
Mike Sando's tier four to the listeners and watchers, Greg
has changed the tiers to two point five.
Speaker 5 (32:37):
Two point five is totally screwing me up here. I
got to put decimal points in the column.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
All right. For me, it's three and four.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
But I was, you know, you have these evaluations like
this kind of quarterback is going to help certain weeks.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
I wanted to separate it.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
To me, tiers are are naturally wherever you put them,
wherever you think there's a drop off, and I did
think there's a little bit of a drop off. I
want to see it again from bo Nicks, have him
ahead of kill Boy.
Speaker 5 (32:58):
Heleb, Bryce and Pennox are your tier threes.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Yes, Bo, Caleb, Bryce, and Pennox, And they're kind of
just like a tier of you know, I expect them
to move up to that two point five or what
is really the three, but they just need to see
a little more, a little more a sample side.
Speaker 5 (33:11):
Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, yeah, that's fine. Yeah,
that's the one area in the tiers where it's a
little difficult sometimes. Is that? For me? Tier four is
like either you know, Russell Wilson ish where you're kind
of maybe he's not the full season starter anymore. But
it's also JJ McCarthy becauseos so some of those things
get a little bit skewed.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
You know, that's fine, all right, And then Rogers is
the craziest one to be put up my tier four.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
By the way, we'll do.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
A tier four. It's not at three point oh yeah,
we keep going.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
I've got Darnold here, which is around the same ranking
where you had him, but a tier below because I
don't think he has as much long term promise as
those young guys we just mentioned. And then to me,
it's Rogers, it's JJ McCarthy just because we haven't seen it.
Justin Fields, Kirk Cousins, Anthony Richardson. I don't think you
want to be going into your season with these guys
as your starters. If anything, I'm giving Rogers too much love.
(34:03):
I couldn't believe that he was still sixteenth last year,
and I get the reputation at all, but he's forty one,
forty two years old. Mike, what did you hear about Rogers?
A guy who really hasn't had a Rogers like season
in three years.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
He had a bad year with.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
The Packers and then he gets hurt and then an
even worse year with the Jets. To me, the tape
to me just didn't support that sort of tier.
Speaker 5 (34:26):
Now he got votes in four tiers, so let's just
face it, nobody knows what you know. I think there's
a lot.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Of someone put him at the very top. That's crazy.
Speaker 5 (34:33):
One person put him into here one, six put him
Intier four. So you know, there's a lot of respect
that he's earned, you know, over the years, and no
one really is signing up to want to play him
because you know, on any one day he could. He's
a pain. But I think that you know, his combination
of it at the age coming off the injury, which
is a two way, two edged sword here, because it's
(34:54):
bad to be coming off an injury, but he's a
year removed from it, so he could be a little
bit better with his movement. There's some people banking that
a little bit. But then he reports in June he
has no history with Arthur Smith, the offensive coordinator. Questionable
cast of receivers in terms of the rapport with him.
DK Metcalf certainly talented but also emotional. And how's that
(35:16):
going to go? You know when Rogers gives him the
brush off, or gives him the icy stare, or gives
him the palms up, Like when he throws to the
place like he wants him to be and he's in
DK's running the other way, and like even Aaron knew
he was going to go the other way, but still
throw it where he's supposed to be. You know, that's
(35:37):
the type of stuff that I just wonder how it's
going to go over the course of a season. By
the way, now cold weather tough division. Late in the year,
what's he going to be at age forty one? I
think it's all fair.
Speaker 4 (35:48):
Yeah, Greg putting Sam Darnold after the season he had
in the upside along with a declining Aaron Rodgers in
the same tier as nasty work, by the way, but
I will say that it's I love this that you
got about Rogers. I think this says everything, and frankly, Greg,
it says a lot about why he should be still
grouped in with players who are ascending in their career
(36:08):
right now, which is too slow to consistently win with
his legs, yet his mind and hard count will have
your disguise broken and your d line in the neutral
zone multiple times per game. There are these little mental
micro advantages that having a guy who has just first
of all, seen that much football, who has played that
much football, who knows all of the little technical tricks
(36:31):
and all the little things that can get your defense
feeling unsettled and a little bit rattled, and maybe is
not going to be able to trust his legs and
to throw on the move as much. Maybe they're going
to play action him more, which he hates to do.
But maybe we'll see that a little bit more so
he's in those natural boots versus the out of structure
work that we've seen him create with before. But this
(36:52):
is so interesting to me that they're sort of understanding
this is kind of it where he's at physically, but
he still has these little things that will give you
edges and advantages at the head of Tua.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Is nasty business.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
I mean when when tuas on the field, he's a
pretty big difference maker, maybe the most accurate, you know,
quarterback in the NFL. Like no other offense falls apart
quite like the Dolphins when he's not on the field.
So I do feel like Tua got a little underrated here.
We got to wrap it up soon. But we'll just
fly up our final tiers. My last tier, Tier five
(37:25):
just kind of the rest of the guys essentially, Russell Wilson,
Spencer Rattler, Daniel Jones, Joe Flacco. I kind of forgot
about Kenny Pickett. You voted him in there. You know,
he wouldn't even make that tier for me. And then
your final tier is a little bigger. It has Russ
it has you know, justin Fields, Pennex McCarthy, Daniel Jones,
Joe Flacco, Anthony Richardson, and rather so just the guys
(37:48):
at the end.
Speaker 5 (37:49):
So where do you have Anthony Richardson? Where did you
put him?
Speaker 1 (37:52):
He was that tier at the back end of the
tier higher, just because I just have a little hope
he was at the back end of this. Sam Darnold,
Rogers feel rich.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
Just look at this teer.
Speaker 5 (38:05):
This is a group, This is all over the place.
So young guy's never played.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
This is so young.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Guys never played JJ McCarthy.
Speaker 5 (38:12):
These are like three four thousand yard pastors that are
limping around to half the time.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
I think if Kirk Cousins played this year, I would
give him a little more pop of the now heasy
year removed from injury and actually had some pass in
film last year.
Speaker 5 (38:27):
Rogers and Richardson in the same one. When Richardson is
like the first place you broke broke in the preseason,
how about how about the lack of recognition by Richardson
just gets ear hold on a totally basic cause it's
probably a fair plaint. And now Rogers is in the
same bucket. Rogers would have seen that, like, you know,
in his sleep, hopefully at the stage of his career.
(38:47):
But yeah, these things get hard.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
This is why I won in this tear battle, and
it's because I added chaos to the mix that broke
your brain. I was trying to be, you know, an.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Agent of chaos.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
That's why I put Stafford in golf right next to
each other, just to make all the Rams and Lions
fans mad at each other to it and Trevor all
of that.
Speaker 5 (39:09):
Off the top, I said, you were going to align
with one of my voters, but now you're in volund tears.
I think we're lost it all right before.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
We let you go, what was the biggest I know,
like you might be surprised about what the votes come in,
but what's the most you know, surprising reaction from fans,
like in terms of where they like, you didn't see
that coming.
Speaker 5 (39:30):
Jalen Hurt's way too low according to not just Egle fans,
but some of the people in media even that I've
I've had companie with so far today. Yeah, and I
just didn't see that coming. I think I understand. I
think the voters understand good player, but he's got a
ton of great stuff at random. They took the bot
of his hands to run it with Berkley because that's
their best interest. And I get the feeling that if
(39:50):
he was on a league average team, he'd probably be
a little bit lower in this, not higher. I don't
think he would necessarily carry them in that way. So
I'm with where he's at, top ten. He's won of
Super Bowl, you know, been to a couple of them.
I didn't find this disrespectful, but some people were like,
he should be in tier one.
Speaker 4 (40:07):
Mike, have you over the years grown accustomed to bearing
the burden of outrage on behalf of protecting all of
your voters every single year? Well?
Speaker 5 (40:18):
Yeah, to some degree. The biggest relief in this thing
for me, the battle that I was hated fighting was
when Lamar would be at the top of tier two
and he's like an MVP, and you'd have to get
into the nuances of what people are saying. I think
now the last couple of years, where his production has
only been so good, but clearly he has not been
(40:39):
what's holding them back in the playoffs. And I think
that that was a hard thing earlier, because there's always
been a feeling in the league with evidence that you know,
the guys who rely on their legs and are inconsistent
passers die in the playoffs, you know, and that's kind
of had happened to Lamar. And so the fact that
I think he's broken through that, that's great. Because for
a couple of years there it's like, Okay, Mike, great
(41:00):
job in the Tears. Now Lamar Jackson's done in Tier
one and then I've explained that for half the show.
I'm done doing that.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
We didn't even it's still stupid though he's behind Burrow.
Who are these three or four guys that aren't putting
Jackson and josh Allen for what it's worth in tier one?
Speaker 5 (41:18):
Like there there are people who who think that, who
still are against too much reliance on the legs, and
that's what it is. That But clearly to me, josh
Anna and Lamar Jackson are passing well enough now that
that we don't need to have that discussion so.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
That they are to us like a fishing passers in
the NFL.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
Like That's the thing that that breaks my brain is
there's no world to Burrow has played better than those two.
Speaker 5 (41:40):
But when you have to pass the ball and they
know you're going to pass the bats different than when
they're all gearing up stuff to run. And that's a fact.
And Lamar has done better than that with.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
That get it, get it, get a man.
Speaker 5 (41:50):
I don't do both at it.
Speaker 4 (41:51):
I know what I said, Okay, said, we won't make
you talk about it, and yet we made to talk
about it.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
It was don't have to any trauma. You're done. You're
done for the year. We should do this every year.
This was a lot of fun. I hadn't.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
You got me out of the cave and got to
do some rankings which I hadn't done in a while
for quarterbacks. I appreciate you, Mike. Everyone check out Mike
Sando at the Athletic. Look he doesn't just pop up
once a year for quarterback tears. He's writing weekly. I
check out your column every Monday morning. One of my
my first things I read on Monday morning is Mike
(42:24):
Sando and does a lot of other great work at
the Athletic.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
Appreciate you, Mike, Thank you, love it.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
Thanks again to Mike Sando. We wrap up the show.
That was fantastic.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
I love that so much with.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
Something that I mentioned at the beginning of the show
that I don't know if you didn't pick up on
or you just didn't want to recognize it. I did
call you my friend right at the top of the show.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
There was some pre show conversation of like whether we
were just whether we were friends or co workers.
Speaker 4 (42:51):
You know. No, when Greg refers to someone else as
his only adult friend.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
I didn't say only, I say one of my only
adult friends.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
I go, thanks, Well, I was what I was trying
to say. There is like a friend that you have
that's completely outside of work, like divorced from work.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
I get it. I'm I'm in a different tier.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
No, it's just like we are friends. But this is
outside of work. That's different. But no, you are friend.
We are friends. You are friend, you're the ranking, you.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Are my friend. I am a human, you.
Speaker 3 (43:25):
Are my friend. Emotions ernest, Greg has left the building.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
No, I'm feeling very earnest. Chris and Eric, you're my
friends too. You're doing a great job every day, Chris
Pavona And.
Speaker 4 (43:38):
Notice how Eric, do you notice how Greg only says
this on the air when we're recording, Like I never
see him tell you guys this when we're all just
just us, no mics or anything like.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Well, yeah, don't say anything important, not into a mic. Yeah,
kind of that part of life matter. This is when
we're really alive. Why say it if nobody can hear it.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
That is a theme that we're going to continue on
our next show I'm really looking forward to I Can
Fix Them two thousand and twenty five. That's going to
be our next NFL daily show. You will hear in
the feed forties and free agents, Daniel Jeremiah and I
talking about some of the off season acquisitions.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
You have something to say.
Speaker 4 (44:19):
Our friendship is a mortal, and that's how you know
football is back.
Speaker 3 (44:28):
Scared you