May 29, 2025 • 37 mins
Gregg Rosenthal is joined by John Shipley of Jaguars on SI to discuss how Travis Hunter and the new staff in Jacksonville have looked at the start of OTAs. First, the two get caught up on news including the QB battles with the Giants (01:45) and Browns (04:50), Caleb Williams commenting on his rookie draft process (07:20), and Stefon Diggs making news off the field (12:05). After the break, Gregg and John talk about how the Jaguars have used Hunter at OTAs (17:30), the new staff's vision for the team (24:20), and John's first impressions of Liam Coen (29:40).
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to NFL Daily where we're out here in California.
Just chew it on some bark. I'm Greg Rosenthal. I'm
in my garage. I'm talking to my friend John Shipley,
who covers the Jaguars Jaguars on SI. He's gonna talk
some Travis Hunter, but he also can talk about the
rest of the leagues. So we'll do a little bit
of news first, John, how is your Jacksonville off season
(00:28):
after Travis Hunter.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Gave you a little bit of a jolt this year?
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Yeah, it definitely did a one to eighty from the
expected Mason Graham pick. I think if they had picked
Mason Graham, I don't think. I think people would need
to be reminded. The Jaguars were more or less in
the NFL right now, But the Travis Hunter completely skyrocketed
the I suddenly feel like the uh that meme, like
I just became important at work and it's it's terrible thing.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
That's exactly what the Travis Hunter pickfields go. No, it's great,
it is great.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Would you be on Would you be on NFL DA
in late May? Maybe not the timing otherwise, because honestly,
I was just gonna read essentially your analysis of Travis
Hunter's time with the Jaguars. So far, They've already done
a couple of open OTAs. They had a rookie mini camp,
like I've listened to here podcast. People should check out
the Jaguars Insider podcast. I was just gotta sort of
(01:19):
like copy what you said, Verbain, and was like, no,
why don't I actually have John on because to me,
Travis Hunter is the most fascinating like news story in
the entire NFL this season. But it is late May,
and that means all the teams are at OTA's. That's
the first time this offseason that's happened. So we got
a little bit of news. Most of this is late
May news, So we'll kind of go through this quickly, John,
(01:41):
but I'll be curious to get your thoughts on some
of it.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Starting we go, we'll go with the Giants.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
I kind of like looking at the quarterback battles right
off the top, and Russell Wilson is out there getting
most of the reps with the first team with the Giants.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Not a huge surprise.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
A little bit of a surprise that Malik Neighbors is
bothered enough by a toe injury that's bothered him since
college that he's been sitting out of practice, So that's
somewhat concerning. I noticed Andrew Thomas. They're left tackle still
not healthy, not a surprise after he had the foot
surgery last offseason. But they are sprinkling in a little
Jackson Dart with the first team right off the bat,
(02:15):
and a little Jamis Winston with the first team right
off the bat, and he threw. Jamis did an interception
on his very first throw as a member of the
New York Giants, which I love. Any thoughts, I don't
know if you know, you dove deep because you have
Trevor Lawrence there into how you think Jackson Dart is
going to adapt to this situation, and maybe how you
think Russell Wilson looks there too.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Yeah, I mean, I think just like naturally, you know,
as a guy who's going to need some time just
coming from that style of offense in sec where it's really,
you know, a bunch of goballs and RPOs and stuff.
It doesn't like very much look like, you know, an
NFL offense, but obviously it has a ton of trades.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
It was interesting to me them taking.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
A quarterback in the first round, like I thought it
was either okay, take a quarterback in the first round,
ride it with the rookie, take your lumps, and maybe
be like, hey, if he shows some development, like show
to John Maher and the ownership like, hey, we've developed
this guy, give us another year to take another crack
at it. Or sign some veterans to you know, try
to save themselves and you know, throw out some life
per servers themselves. They did both, which I don't really
(03:17):
know necessarily what to do with that. I don't know
what the actual like plan is, but I they had
to do one or together, so I guess you know,
they'll figure it out as they go along, which kind
of seems like the theme of the Giants the Last Coup, right.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
I think the plan is just hope for the best.
I saw our friend Mina Kimes check out her podcast
too this week. I was on it if you are
interested in that. We talked to afc X factors and
I saw her throw out there, like what's the over
under for Dart starting. I think she said like weeks
eight or ten or something like that. I was like, oh, under,
Like I might take under week three. It's possible he
(03:53):
starts week one. Having watched these rookie like reps. If
you're getting first team reps, even if it's just a
sprinkling of them right off the bat, you got a
chance for it. I know you had to live through
the Jaguars giving Gardner Minshew half the reps, like through
half of training camp of Trevor Lawrence.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
It was crazy.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
It was like into like the first week or two
of preseason where it was starting to get ridiculous, like
like Trevor was stwing to like Tevon Austin and practice
more than he was like throwing to the starting receivers.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Quarterback battles in the off season are a good thing,
good bit.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah, it's they're good to follow, and I do think
they'll They'll give Russell Wilson as good a chance as
possible to get started with that team, but if it
doesn't go well, they'll get rid of them. Also, Dexter
Lawrence was out there practicing. I always like checking in
on the guys who were hurt at the end of
last season. Theo Johnson, who I thought was a really
promising rookie tight end for them and had the same
foot surgery that Andrew Thomas had. He was out there
(04:44):
fully practicing again, So it's just good. It's more like
you want to see boxes checked. That's how I think
about it. And while we're talking quick quarterbacks, the Browns
are giving all four of their quarterbacks reps with the
first team offense. Dylan Gabriel Sanders there, they're two mid
to late round picks, and then Kenny Pickett got the
(05:05):
first rep of practice at least that media was watching,
which is interesting.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
And Joe Flacco is another one.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
And I saw that ESPN Cleveland had actually put out
the graphic of like all four of their stat lines
in OTAs in late May.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
It's not where you want to be as an organization. No.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Social media has made OTAs such a wild time because,
like everybody agrees while they're happening that none of this matters.
It's not close to real football. It's mostly just conditioning
and like classroom stuff. But at the same time, all
of it matters extremely much like Trevor Lawrence, like in
the first OTA is the jack said, I think through
like two picks, and it like there were people Milton
(05:44):
down there was an entire no like some former NFL
player like analyzing it, and I'm like, what are we
doing here with OTAs anymore. I'm I think the Browns
like almost similar to the Giants, like probably ride with
like Flacco, picket until things inevitably get pretty bad, and
then see what your Gabriel has. I Gabriel like I
(06:05):
watched him a little bit in college, just because he
was at UCF for like two years. He's now the
most notable UCF alumni in the NFL, as he's known
around my neighborhood after myself, you know.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Oh no, I was like, I'm trying to think as
UCF produced.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
I once asked, I won't say a player, but I
once asked, like a UCF alum who like played for
the Jags, like, hey, how were we going to do
this weekend? He goes, We like, yeah, I get it.
But now I mean the Browns I kind of view
like the Giants, like once the veterans kind of all off.
I think you probably see her in there.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
The most interesting thing, and I'm with you on the
ot is although some teams you know, treat them differently. Already,
the Patriots reporters there are like they're treating ota Is
way differently than Belichick did, where it was all about
like teaching and just whatever. It's like they're evaluating, they're
making him work a little harder. Some some coaches approach
it differently than others, but it's still without pads. The
only interesting thing to me about the Brown it is
(07:00):
just that they're doing this, that they're splitting it up
four ways.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
It's a wild way to do things.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
They're gonna have to make some choices evenly, and it
really shows to me that developing these rookies is important
to them, because it doesn't make that much sense to
me that you would have a third and a fifth
round pick taking first round first. You know, team reps
right away speaking of a high pick Caleb Williams. I
just wanted to close the book on the Caleb Williams story.
(07:25):
We talked about the Seth Wickersham piece about his father
and him considering their options before ultimately deciding they'd be
cool with the Bears, and Caleb Williams hadn't spoken to
the media about it, and he did speak today and
I was impressed. He had a four minute monologue off
the top of his head before taking any questions. Where
look as a twenty two to twenty three year old
(07:47):
kid who has heard everything. It wasn't some prerecorded statement.
We'll listen to a little bit of it right now and.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
Then after our camera visit here. It was a deliberate
answer and delivered and determined answer that I had is
that I wanted to come here, and just like Ben
spoke about, obviously, you know, the past years, as everybody knows,
it's a fact that quarterback play there hasn't been a
(08:15):
four thousand yard past or there's you know, there's all
these different things that come up, and so you know,
being able to have those thoughts is I think fair
to be able to have, you know, good and bad thoughts.
But like I said, I came here on a visit
and like I said, just like Ben said, you know,
it's it's a it's a it's a challenge to be
able to to come in here and try and turn around.
And that was the main goal of of of of
(08:38):
all of that.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
He went on from there before there, and he's in
a tough spot as a young kid, but that he
was absolutely right that not enough was made about the
part of the story where I was like, yeah, once
I went to Chicago, I immediately said, yeah, let's do it.
And so there's nothing that the city at Chicago should
hold against them, and I think their fans will appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Actually thought it was a good job.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
It did not seemed like he had been overly prepped,
although obviously like he thought about it, I'm sure over
the last week and a half. I mean he even
shouted out Kevin O'Connell and was like, yeah, I went
there and it was a great visit, and like, look,
he just won Coach of the Year.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Like I was, you know, impressed by it.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
But once once I was here, this is my city,
and I still think the story was a story. It
was not a non story like the Bears fans.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
We're all saying.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
But I thought he handled it well like you want
your franchise quarterback to handle it.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
No one hundred percent of story anytime, like you just
you know, since like Eli, we haven't seen any pick
really kind of player like exert their influence really on
the draft system. So anytime a player is considering it,
I think it's notable. Like we didn't see you know,
I know there was people trying to generate it, but
we didn't see Joe Burrow do it with Cincinnati when
it would have made sense. I mean, they still haven't
(09:47):
even signed the number seventeenth pick, and he's a defensive end,
let alone the number one pick who was a quarterback.
The Jaguars were going through a really bad era when
Trevor Lawrence was number one pick.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
You didn't see it there.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
He he had kind of a similar meat thing where
he did an interview with Sports Illustrated where he was
like his dad was like he could retire without winning
Super Bowl and he's perfectly content with his life, and
people obviously kind of latched onto that. So it's just
like a lesson, like when you're in that spot, like
anything you say, people are just going to take one
way or another regardless of how it's intended. And I
(10:19):
don't think he was even wrong, Like, look at how
is rookie season win. The Bears have devoted a ton
of resources now to make sure they can fix all
the issues he was kind of worried about before he
got drafted by them.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
It's funny because in the pre draft process there was
all this talk about, you know, how is Caleb Williams
as a leader and how much does he love ball
essentially and how he you know, handles his teammates and
everything and I think if you were just grading that
since the day that he got drafted, just based on
what I've heard from people that are there, just by
(10:52):
how his teammates talk about him, and just how I've
observed and deal with the media, that's all been an
A to A plus. And I think the on the
field play was like a Grady on a curve for
number one.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Overall pick was like a B B minus.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
But I think he'll be better this year because he's
going to have a lot more support and his old
friend Shane Waldron is down with you guys in Jacksonville.
You reminded me before the show. I kind of forget
about that.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
They swapped Shane Waldron and then Press Taylor went to Chicago.
So it's literally just Jags and Bears fans yelling at
each other on X every time one of their names
comes up.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
It's both funny and pretty unsettling.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Yeah, Jacks fans, calm down if you're getting on Shane Waldron.
Shane Waldron had a totally solid NFL assistant coaching career
before Lanny in Chicago, which is where coaches go to die,
and he was like year four of a not so
good eber Fluce Era, and I thought, actually did some
good things with Gino smith Beck in Seattle, so he's
not the play caller anyways. In Jacksonville, the key guy,
(11:51):
we'll talk about it in a second, is Liam Cohen.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Right.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
It was funny at the Combine. At Cohen's podium session,
somebody was like, so you hired Shane Waldron you you're
worried about the Chicago thing.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
He just goes, no, Yeah, what's he gonna say?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
I wanted to lead the show with Stefan Diggs, and
I thought, am I showing my Patriots bias? Or do
I think that Stefan Diggs partying on a boat with
his girlfriend Carti b and a number of other friends
is actually the perfect May story. I'd like to think
(12:29):
I would have thought that, regardless. I did not notice
in all those videos that were going around on the internet, however,
that he appeared to hand a substance, pink substance over
to uh to three girls after insisting that he they
call him daddy.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
And he did. And that is actually like.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Something that a reporter would ask Mike Rabel about. While
Diggs is not at OTAs, Let's listen to Mike Rabel.
Speaker 5 (12:59):
Well, let's something that we're aware of, and obviously we
want to make great decisions on and off the field,
and we're hoping that with our time here on the
field today and that when we don't have a script
and we're on the call up periods, that we're making
great decisions. And so the message will be the same
for all our players that we were trying to make
great decisions, and any conversations that I've had with Stefan
(13:21):
or remain between him and I and.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
The club.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Great decisions, Like I wouldn't have said it was a
bad decision to be on that boat and having fun
that it seemed it seemed fun the decision where it's
getting recorded yea, and then you're passing a suspicious looking
powdery subthence is where maybe it's not as great a
decision if you had the rank like.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
The thirty two NFL head coaches, and who'd be like
the most upset about something like this?
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Les like near the top right like it's it's the
perfect storm. He absolutely is.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
And you know, Digg's got a lot of guaranteed money
not pasted this year, so it's really like a one
year deal and Diggs hasn't been with the team lately
at OTAs he's recovering of course from that tour in
a cl and yeah video you can check it out.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
And yeah, my wife saw it on TikTok and send
it to me. And normally when it gets into her
realm and she's saying tiktoks about it, that's normally when
it's it's definitely escaped captivity.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Well, the more the more concerning part, I think for me,
just as someone who wants the best for Stefon Diggs'
you know, his high profile girlfriend is on that boat,
and that that conversation did not seem one like one
that or some of the actions going on.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
I'll just I'll just leave it right there.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Let's move on finally to some more sound. When Terry
Bradshaw has a great quote about not wanting Aaron Rodgers
on his team, I'm just gonna play it on the show.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
So let's listen. What do you think about possibly Aaron
Rodgers being the quarterback? That's a joke. He shouldn't. That is,
just to me, is a joke. What are you going
to bring him in for one year? You kidding? I mean,
that's not the white right no.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Man, that guy needs to stay in California, and thank
you you won't bark.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
And to the gods out there, I love that.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Uh, I'm chewing on some bark out here. I love
chewing on bark. It's just a strange sort of mind
blowing combination of things.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
But I agree with Terry Bradshaw on this one. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
No, it definitely seems like Terry Bradshaw thinks he has
like a California and tied eye hippie point of view
on on everything.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
I mean, not wrong with you, and on some bark.
I live in Florida. It's practically a delicacy. But I agree.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
I think it's so weird that the Steelers as no
organization or like doing this Aaron Rogers dance like it
made sense in like March, but like we're in the
middle of OTAs now. And I saw a quote today
like Mason Rudolph talking about DK Metcalf's athleticism and no
offense to Mason Rudolph, but that's a terrible omen for
the Steelers, And Mason Rudolph is who you have answering
questions about your new receiver, who you just you know, traded.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
For right and DK, by the way, is not even
there this week. Mason Ruff said he's been there about
half the time, not that that's a big deal. He
just got married, Like these are voluntary sessions. But you're
absolutely right that it's just awkward and a little embarrassing
that ultimately the Steelers kind of prostrated themselves, you know,
waiting for Aaron Rodgers to do this where I think
they know that he's joining the team sooner than later.
(16:21):
A couple other nuggets and then we'll talk to some Jaguars.
Just want to mention in terms of OTA absences. I
don't track each one like day to day, but Rayshawn Slater,
the tackle for the Chargers, TJ. Watt of the Steelers,
and Terry McLaurin weren't at practice for their teams, and
those are all three guys that I think are looking
for new contracts.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
So that's just something to keep an eye on.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
And then Tommy Tremble, if you're familiar with them, the
tight end of the Panthers had back surgery. That was
news to me and I think to Panthers fans, and
they're hoping he's going to be ready for the start
of the season. We will be back in just a
minute and talk a little Travis Hunter with my friend Job.
(17:06):
All right, as always, I took longer than I expected,
like flying through some relatively unimportant news.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
I thought we'd spend the whole show on the Jaguars.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
We just do five and but it's one of the
things I like about this NFL daily format is I'm
into the news almost all times a year, so I
do like to keep all the listeners informed.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Hopefully they enjoyed that part of it too. But yes, John,
you're there.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Travis Hunter, I'm convinced will be in the Jaguars Ring
of Honor someday.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
What is it called. I think it's called the Jaguar.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
I want to say it's Ride, okay, and then the
cheerleaders are the other one, right.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
It's I remember they had some special name for it.
And it's why I've killed the Browns for making this trade,
because I do believe in Travis Hunter that much, and
I know he's going to have to prove everyone right,
but I do think he's a guy that the people
are going to remember as a Jaguar for a very
long time, and that you have a long term plan
for him. And we are at the very very very
(18:07):
beginning of that long term plan. But what has like
the short term plan looked like practically on a day
to day basis.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Yeah, So I've seen him now practice three times or
once a rookie minting camp and then twice at OTA's.
They've held one other rookie mining camp day that media
wasn't at, and then two other OTA days. So I've
seen him practice three out of the six possible times
he's practiced. Every time i've seen him practice, he's been
on offense. And I don't know if that's like a
(18:37):
concentrated effort or a plan or whatever, but his days
on defense have been the days that the media haven't
been there. But the days that we've been there, it's
not like he's going back and forth or like somebody
even was like asking at the first rookie minute camp,
he's going to wear like a two like colored like
practice jersey where he just flips it inside out like
flag football, and it's going to be offensive defense. But
(18:57):
Liam Cohen, you know, made it pretty clear yesterday. You know,
he was asked there is going to be a time
where he's practicing both positions in one practice and he'll
probably have to do it during the season because practices
are so much shorter than it's also a lot less
physical practices because it's mostly game plan stuff and install
so but during OTA's during this time, he's not doing
(19:20):
like two things at once. So like if he's starting
the day at receiver, he's an in the day at receiver,
and he's you know, taking one hundred percent of his
reps on one side of the ball, whichever one he
starts at. But they've said, you know, he's practiced at
cornerback a couple of times. I said, he was at
cornerback at last Wednesday, so that'd be their third OTA practice,
So I guess he went two days at receiver, one
(19:40):
day at corner and then yesterday back to wide receiver.
So it's pretty clear where they have their focus on.
And you know, I'll be honest and like Frank like,
it probably is where it deserves to be because you
can tell, like from rookie Mini Caampo least, my thought was,
he's definitely a guy who needs to be taught the
finer points of position. He's never been able to just
like solely focus on it. You know, he's always been
(20:02):
going both ways. You kind of at Colorado it seemed
like they were just letting South less and take over.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
So to me, the plan makes sense.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
But I'm already seeing him honestly making strides in that department,
just the little things.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
A wide receiver, Okay, in a lot of ways that
could go there. Let's go back to what you said
that you're not surprised that they're doing it on offense.
Do you mean because that's where he would be more
valuable for this Jaguars team, that that just makes sense
for him to start his career there, or like that's
where he maybe needs more work is wide receiver, So
(20:33):
you started there.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
I honestly think it's a little bit of all of it.
I think obviously wide receiver versus corner wide receiver, Like
just look at the money and the contracts. Wide receivers
in a more valuable position right now. You know, Liam
Cohen's an offensive minded head coach. They said, like Tony
Boselli did like a complete media tour before you know,
the draft, and pretty much every time you know, he
did an interview, he's like, yeah, we're looking for guys
(20:56):
who can score touchdown, So obviously you know they're seeing
offenses more valuable. But I also think like the time
on task receivers probably where he needs it more than corner.
You go back to after they drafted him. James Gladstone
even said, you know he's spent he has spent more
time at corner in his football career, football life than
at wide receiver. So just getting that coaching each and
(21:17):
every single day, like he'd probably make a quicker and
easier transition to corner than wide receiver. But I also
think they see it as intrinsically a more valuable position too.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
See, I really respect your coverage. If you're interested in
like learning how a great you know, beat writer covers
the team, you should check out John's stuff. And I
listened to your pod and was checking out some of
the articles, just like wanting you to be irresponsible and
tell me how insanely explosive like Hunter has looked, and
that he just moves different than everyone else. And you're
(21:49):
on there saying, you know, D'ami Brown's probably made more
plays than anyone. Diami Brown's been awesome. It's like, no,
give me, give me the red meat. Tell me how
Travis Hunters looked.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
You See, I remember learning my lesson from Live year
from wondering when Ryan Nilson would get head coach interviews.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
So I've pulled back a little bit, but she's crazy.
Abrey Brown, you know, and Swartz and home it says
look good, but no, Travis Hunter. He has looked good.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Like from the first rookie minuting camp practice to yesterday,
I've seen him make significant strides because you could tell,
like his first rookie minute camp practice he was like
redoing drills like three or four times because he was
like messing it up, and the wide receivers coach had
a good minute would correct him and then instead of
just going to the back of the line, he'd go
right back to the front and restart it. You're not
seeing like you saw it a little bit the next
(22:33):
OTA practice and then this last one you just didn't
see it. So you're clearly seeing him mixed strides as
a route runner. He had some reps and I wrote that,
you know, he was impressive without the ball in OTA yesterday,
and I saw some fantacy account retweet it and be
like this is gibberous. I was a wide receiver impressive
without the ball, and like that.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
It happens all the time they're out there for like
sixty plays a game, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
And there were just a couple of reps and there
was one in particular against Jordan Lewis, who one of
the NFL's better slot cornerbacks. You know, they sign him
to a big deal, but he's been one of the
probably a top four to five nickel corners in the
NFL the Cowboys last couple of years. And Hunter just
the route that he ran, the explosiveness that he had
out of his break, Lewis couldn't keep up with him,
(23:16):
and he looked like the kind of mood where I'm like,
I don't know who can keep up with them. So yeah,
he's still warned the little fine details and stuff, but
he does move differently. He does move like a free
He does have that star power that you can just
automatically since wherever he lines up on the field like, okay,
this is a dude, he has all of that.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Right.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
I became so not that I was alone in this,
but and awored with him and convinced that he could
excel at both positions but at receivers specifically watching him,
not because I know enough or thought that he's so
refined as a route runner. Just that the guys that
do move differently on tape that you can just tell
(23:56):
move differently in a way that the game just really
slows down for them mentally and physically, where he can
control his body in a certain way that few others can.
Those guys translate to me, Odell Beckham was was certainly
one of them.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Malik Neighbors I think was one of them.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Justin Jefferson in the NFL is like the epitome of that.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
And frankly Brian Thomas Jr. Like his teammate, is one
of them.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
So I guess I'm curious how you've seen this coaching
staff come in and what kind of ideas you think
that they have. And I thought it's interesting you said, yeah,
like they're an offensive staff. Maybe that's why he's on offense,
because I've noticed they've been all about the offense, and like,
I get it, offense. I think it is more important
or it's a little more stable, and that makes sense
that you would start there.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
Yeah, it's more important to them, Like obviously to support
Trevor Lawrence, it is to have a good number two cornerback,
you know, and that's all things I think like we
can agree with and I think the Hunter pick was
in a lot of ways, like obviously, you know, adding
a guy who they think is an elite guy on
and off the field, but also as a way to
just help your quarterback because a lot of the things
(24:59):
that Tray does well and things that he won't need,
you know, years of developing a receiver at or things
that Liam Cohen scheme you know, automatically brings in. Like
Liam Cohen last year the Buccaneers, they were probably the
best screen team in the NFL. And he is a
really good scheme in terms of how he dials those
things up, you know, for wide receivers, for running backs
and Travis Hunter. I think he's going to feast on
(25:21):
those this year. I think, you know, if you want
a candidate for and I'm a Trevor Lawrence like, I'm
a fan of his game.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
I think he's a good quarterback. I think he's better
than most people do.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
But I could definitely see, like his production this year,
there to be some you know, fugazi fakeness to it,
just because they have the pieces between the scheme and
the talent. I think to really eat on the easy
button kind of things like that, and that's where I
think Hunter will make everybody's life kind of easier on offense.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Okay, so how do you think him and Brian Thomas
Junior compliment each other? Because I was so high on
Thomas Junior that I've brought it up many times because
it ended up being right, unlike most of the takes
that I have, where I don't think anyone would have
expected him to be a top twenty receiver right out
(26:08):
the jump, which I think he was, Like he was
already a top fifteen twenty receiver. If you're being conservative
as a rookie, how do you like I guess I'm
curious just what you saw from him and everything that
you think about him, and then how he fits with
Hunter and with Liam Cohen and Trevor how because that's
to me, the model here is like Cincinnati. It's it's
(26:28):
Tampa too, but it's like Cincinnati that like this. These
are the three pillars along with the head coach of
your organization.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Now one hundred percent, he is like, like you said,
one the pillars there are when a new regime comes
in the way I see it is the new regime
has their guys, They have the leftover guys from the
older regym that they'll kind of pick through, and the
Deerman who they want to keep. And then there's a third,
much smaller group of guys who are just cornerstones that
it doesn't matter who picked them, any regime wants them.
And Brian Thomas Jr. Like to me, is right at
(26:56):
the top with Trevor Lawrence, Josh einz Allen, Travis Hunter
on that list. I think even with the addition of
Travis Hunter and you know, even the on my Brown
that the passing offense is still going to run through
Brian Thomas. I think that, you know, one of the
first things Liam Cohen kind of said, you know, to
the local media when he got here was like, when
he was evaluating receivers, he was like, I probably didn't
(27:17):
evaluate Brian Thomas as much as hard as I should have,
because obviously Tampa, you know, wasn't looking for a receiver
in the first round. But you know, he gave credit
to the last jag war staff or how often they
put him in the slot and seeing what he could
do from there, and he know that, you know, he's
a really really good deep threat, but he's more than
that and that's what I really noticed from him last year.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Like obviously he has a crazy speed.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
You know, you can get open deep on anybody to
catch radious, but his releases off the line, his body
movements for a guy who's you know, that tall and
has that frame, just his quick snaps, the way he
can get low and break. He can run pretty much,
you know, any route, any kind of scheme, whatever you want.
He to me has all the tools you're looking for
in a number one receiver. Literally the thing he the
one thing I think he has to get better at
(27:59):
is catch in the football, which is you know, a
pretty natural thing.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Like you know, some of his touchdowns last year he
like double clutched it.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
But every I think he has every trade to excel,
especially with this new staff scheme, and they absolutely love him.
Everybody in that building, like things that do is a star.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Speed.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Speed is like at that level is just so hard
to find. And we'll see how Diami Brown works out.
You know, for the listeners that forget like did not
have a lot of production for Washington, but really came
on in the playoffs. Had two of the best games
of his life in the playoffs, which helped him get
like a one year, ten million dollar contract, which in
this market is like number three, number four receiver, buddy,
(28:39):
And you said he's looked great. And so the three
of them, man, they can not just you know, get
to the intermediate level really quickly and and have those
sort of timing throws that I think Lawrence can be
great at. But they can set up each other where
one of them, as you mentioned, like Hunter, half his
catches last year were just on.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Those those bubbles and screens and everything.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Many the guys going deep can open it up for
each other on the short stuff.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
They're all pretty versatile. Like I am excited.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I know, I had you on in August and I
was thinking, let the Jaguars. I'm not sure which direction
they're gonna go, but I do find them interesting. They
were like a boom or bust team, and they definitely busted,
but I think they're gotta be more entertaining to watch.
How how's the Liam Cohen experience been for you as
a as a guy covering the team? Obviously he made
(29:29):
you know a lot of waves with his introductory press confidence,
but how's it kind of bed since then?
Speaker 4 (29:34):
No?
Speaker 3 (29:35):
I remember sitting there, like you know, in the crowd
like ten feet away from the second he said it,
I was like, wow, the second I.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Look at my phone is gonna be absolutely now.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
He's honestly been really good to cover, like from our
perspectives so far, Like I know some people will cover
the Buccaneers said he was always good in the media.
There one thing I'll say about him, honestly is he's
incredibly like on the podium, like honest in some of
his responses in a way I haven't really seen the
coaches I've covered. You know, Doug Morone didn't really say
anything Urban Meyer. He not only you know, being honest
(30:08):
is not one of his strong suits. He barely knew
the roster. He called James Robinson James the running back,
Roy Robinson Harris was Roy Roberts. Just stuff like that,
so you weren't getting anything from him. Doug Peterson was
like the classic like pink by numbers, like NFL coach
in terms of like coach speak, like he was just
giving you the generic stuff. Lee was very honest, Like
he was asked about their rookie running back, you know,
(30:31):
baishall tutent after the first OTA's and he like fumbled
the ball in his very first rep and somebody asked
him after their practice there, like, how's Tutent doing it?
He goes, well, he fumbled today. That stood out, and
it was just like an honesty to me that, like
I'm not like in the past, you know, i'd probably
hear him be like, oh, well, you know, he's making progress.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
We'll see how it does.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
So just in terms of getting actual interesting answers and
stuff we can write about, he's been good. I think
in terms of the x's and o's what they'll bring
schematically just to make them a more interesting team, I
definitely think that they'll bring because that's been a thing
with the Jaguars, like they've had all like the pieces
in terms of the players to be an interesting team.
The last couple of years, it just never seems like,
(31:08):
you know, the front office and coaching staff have pulled
their weight in that area too, And now it feels like,
you know, they're doing that.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Yeah, we'll see.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Sometimes the rookie head coaches are like more transparent and
they actually come into it wanting to be transparent. Like
I don't know what Doug Peterson was like his first
year in Philadelphia and then by year three, it's a
different state of affairs or by year whatever it was
thirty seven for Urban Meyer, I don't know where he
was at. What did you say? Telling the truth was
(31:36):
not his strong point? That's a that's a very nice
way to say. He was like a lying liar who
always lied all the time.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
And it's probably the nicest thing I've said about him. Yeah,
it didn't seem like.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
There's liam. Yeah, it didn't seem like Urban was too
invested in the job.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
That still feels the same dream, that still feels like
the weirdest, like nine months a month.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
I'm excited really to just watch Hunter and to hear about, yeah,
how these first practices have been. And is interesting to
think how they're bringing him along because he's he's in
defensive meeting rooms though too, right, So see he's like
doubling up with the meetings.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
How does that work? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Yeah, so while he's not like doubling up on the
practice shield, they did say he's been doubling up into meetings,
which seems immensely difficult, like at least to me, like
they I guess from their perspective. And Hunter even said
after working Mini CAMPI, He's like, well, the defense is
easier to learn than the offense because I guess, you know, like, yeah,
there's different calls and stuff, but defense, like like coveragees
(32:36):
or coverages.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
You know, not many people are throwing that many twists
on it.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Whereas Liam Cohen, it seems like from everybody's description, like
his playbook is vast, and like Frank and steinish.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
That it's just something we literally have never seen before
covering in my time covering the league, but in really
anyone's time covering the league, because you'd have to go
back to like the nineteen fifties and it's just not
even close to.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
The same sport.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Before I let you go, I did notice you had
a hot take on your website being very upset it's
ranking season, John, and you were not happy that Trayvon
Walker was not even listed in PFF's top thirty two.
And I don't put too much into the rankings because
if you make a ranking, people are obviously going to
disagree with some of it, so it happens. But I
(33:24):
do think we're entering year four Trayvon Walker. We'll see
if he gets a contract extension or not. Where do
you see him as this number one overall pick that
a lot of people have picked on over the years
because he hasn't been as good as Aiden Hutchinson. Where
are you in the Trayvon Walker journey and where do
you think, like PFF, maybe national people get it wrong
(33:44):
if we are.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
No, I even mentioned in my pod that's coming out
tomorrow and that like I'm aware I'm feeding into the
machine when I do that, I'm very aware of Fine,
that's my desired you know. Effect Travon's a guy who
I've honestly come around a decent on. After his rookie season,
I was like, like I was like openly going on
like radio shows and Jackson'll be like, I don't know
(34:06):
if he's ever going to be a double digit sack
I like, he'll probably be fine, like get like seven
or eight sacks a season, be a good run defender.
He's fine, But I didn't think he'd ever be like
a double digit sack guy. And then suddenly he's done
it in back to back years and I in complete
agreement that, like he's not like a top ten, fifteen,
probably even top twenty edge. I think like last year
(34:27):
for PFF, he was like nineteenth and pressures but fourth
and pass rush attempts, So he just doesn't have the
efficiency as a pure pressure guy. But I do think
we've gotten to a point where he is underrated because
I mean, he's at least getting sack production. His productions
increased each year he's twenty four. He plays the run well.
It seems like for at least what the Jaguars envisioned
(34:48):
when they picked him at number one, which was to
start slow and then to kind of gradually get better
and become a pretty good player. It kind of seems like,
you know, like you can question Balky picking him over Hutchinson,
but at least Bulkey's evaluation of him and how his
career arc would go, it kind of seems like he
was right so far. But as long as Aiden Hudgson's around,
I do think Trayvon's probably going to be in that
(35:10):
weird kind of perception area.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Yeah, But the thing is, he's only he's only twenty four,
and this idea that he's this incredibly talented physical specimen
that's going to get better and better, and he has
like he can continue to get better, And here's the
real test, Like I'd be very surprised if he didn't
get a very good second contract from the Jaguars, and
if you had taken him number four overall or number
(35:35):
six overall and you're the Jaguars, like he is as
good or better than half or more than like the
number six seven overall. Guys, he just got taken number
one and it was a weird draft and that's not
his fault. But considering what a risky pick he was
at the time, I'm with you. I think I don't
know if he's underrated, but I'm not sure the conventional
(35:56):
wisdom has caught up to like he's a plus starter,
and half of the top ten picks don't even turn
into plus starters. This is how the NFL draft works.
So ultimately, like he's been a pretty good pick. He's
just not Aiden Hutchinson at least then yet.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Yeah, like if Aidan Hudgerson wasn't in a draft and
Kavon Tibada went number two, like the Trayvon pick, probably
like natural nationally looks a lot better.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
That's a good point. Uh, Kavon was in that draft?
Is that correct?
Speaker 4 (36:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Yeah, I could.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
I remember I had Trayvon as my I missed on everything.
I had Trayvon as my number three edge, I had
kaveon number one over Hudgson because I was like, I don't.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
Know about the short on Hutchson guy.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
I was having a bulky moment and then it just
blew up on me completely on all levels.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
It's a great shout though, because a lot of draft
Twitter agreed with you, and I think I might have
had it lined up that way too. At least Thibodeau
over Trayvon Walker was totally consensus, and ultimately between those
two players, Walker's absolutely.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Been the better pro.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
So I just you know, we don't we don't talk
Jaguars enough on this show. I feel like it's been
a nice heavy AFC South week. We talked a lot
of Titans on our last show. It's that time of year.
We should be giving the AFC South some love. And
I'm glad for you, John that you got Travis Hunter
because he got married this weekend.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
I'm buying into.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Just like that he is an intangibly rich guy that's
got to change the culture, just because he just seems
like such an infectious, like amazing spirit.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
I'm buying into all of that.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
And because of that, John, I think he's going to
have this like crazy epic career and you're going to
be there to capture all of it. Appreciate you, John,
I appreciate you. Man all with check Out John, as
I mentioned Jaguars on SI and the Jaguars Insider podcast.
We will be back wrapping up the week. It's going
to go into your feed Friday morning. That will be
(37:41):
with our good friend Patrick claibhann talking about some veterans
under a little bit of fire and yeah, like we
got a new party boat. We got a party boat
story to talk about. You know, football is back.
Welcome to NFL Daily where we're out here in California.
Just chew it on some bark. I'm Greg Rosenthal. I'm
in my garage. I'm talking to my friend John Shipley,
who covers the Jaguars Jaguars on SI. He's gonna talk
some Travis Hunter, but he also can talk about the
rest of the leagues. So we'll do a little bit
of news first, John, how is your Jacksonville off season
(00:28):
after Travis Hunter.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Gave you a little bit of a jolt this year?
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Yeah, it definitely did a one to eighty from the
expected Mason Graham pick. I think if they had picked
Mason Graham, I don't think. I think people would need
to be reminded. The Jaguars were more or less in
the NFL right now, But the Travis Hunter completely skyrocketed
the I suddenly feel like the uh that meme, like
I just became important at work and it's it's terrible thing.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
That's exactly what the Travis Hunter pickfields go. No, it's great,
it is great.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Would you be on Would you be on NFL DA
in late May? Maybe not the timing otherwise, because honestly,
I was just gonna read essentially your analysis of Travis
Hunter's time with the Jaguars. So far, They've already done
a couple of open OTAs. They had a rookie mini camp,
like I've listened to here podcast. People should check out
the Jaguars Insider podcast. I was just gotta sort of
(01:19):
like copy what you said, Verbain, and was like, no,
why don't I actually have John on because to me,
Travis Hunter is the most fascinating like news story in
the entire NFL this season. But it is late May,
and that means all the teams are at OTA's. That's
the first time this offseason that's happened. So we got
a little bit of news. Most of this is late
May news, So we'll kind of go through this quickly, John,
(01:41):
but I'll be curious to get your thoughts on some
of it.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Starting we go, we'll go with the Giants.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
I kind of like looking at the quarterback battles right
off the top, and Russell Wilson is out there getting
most of the reps with the first team with the Giants.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Not a huge surprise.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
A little bit of a surprise that Malik Neighbors is
bothered enough by a toe injury that's bothered him since
college that he's been sitting out of practice, So that's
somewhat concerning. I noticed Andrew Thomas. They're left tackle still
not healthy, not a surprise after he had the foot
surgery last offseason. But they are sprinkling in a little
Jackson Dart with the first team right off the bat,
(02:15):
and a little Jamis Winston with the first team right
off the bat, and he threw. Jamis did an interception
on his very first throw as a member of the
New York Giants, which I love. Any thoughts, I don't
know if you know, you dove deep because you have
Trevor Lawrence there into how you think Jackson Dart is
going to adapt to this situation, and maybe how you
think Russell Wilson looks there too.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Yeah, I mean, I think just like naturally, you know,
as a guy who's going to need some time just
coming from that style of offense in sec where it's really,
you know, a bunch of goballs and RPOs and stuff.
It doesn't like very much look like, you know, an
NFL offense, but obviously it has a ton of trades.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
It was interesting to me them taking.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
A quarterback in the first round, like I thought it
was either okay, take a quarterback in the first round,
ride it with the rookie, take your lumps, and maybe
be like, hey, if he shows some development, like show
to John Maher and the ownership like, hey, we've developed
this guy, give us another year to take another crack
at it. Or sign some veterans to you know, try
to save themselves and you know, throw out some life
per servers themselves. They did both, which I don't really
(03:17):
know necessarily what to do with that. I don't know
what the actual like plan is, but I they had
to do one or together, so I guess you know,
they'll figure it out as they go along, which kind
of seems like the theme of the Giants the Last Coup, right.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
I think the plan is just hope for the best.
I saw our friend Mina Kimes check out her podcast
too this week. I was on it if you are
interested in that. We talked to afc X factors and
I saw her throw out there, like what's the over
under for Dart starting. I think she said like weeks
eight or ten or something like that. I was like, oh, under,
Like I might take under week three. It's possible he
(03:53):
starts week one. Having watched these rookie like reps. If
you're getting first team reps, even if it's just a
sprinkling of them right off the bat, you got a
chance for it. I know you had to live through
the Jaguars giving Gardner Minshew half the reps, like through
half of training camp of Trevor Lawrence.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
It was crazy.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
It was like into like the first week or two
of preseason where it was starting to get ridiculous, like
like Trevor was stwing to like Tevon Austin and practice
more than he was like throwing to the starting receivers.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Quarterback battles in the off season are a good thing,
good bit.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah, it's they're good to follow, and I do think
they'll They'll give Russell Wilson as good a chance as
possible to get started with that team, but if it
doesn't go well, they'll get rid of them. Also, Dexter
Lawrence was out there practicing. I always like checking in
on the guys who were hurt at the end of
last season. Theo Johnson, who I thought was a really
promising rookie tight end for them and had the same
foot surgery that Andrew Thomas had. He was out there
(04:44):
fully practicing again, So it's just good. It's more like
you want to see boxes checked. That's how I think
about it. And while we're talking quick quarterbacks, the Browns
are giving all four of their quarterbacks reps with the
first team offense. Dylan Gabriel Sanders there, they're two mid
to late round picks, and then Kenny Pickett got the
(05:05):
first rep of practice at least that media was watching,
which is interesting.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
And Joe Flacco is another one.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
And I saw that ESPN Cleveland had actually put out
the graphic of like all four of their stat lines
in OTAs in late May.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
It's not where you want to be as an organization. No.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Social media has made OTAs such a wild time because,
like everybody agrees while they're happening that none of this matters.
It's not close to real football. It's mostly just conditioning
and like classroom stuff. But at the same time, all
of it matters extremely much like Trevor Lawrence, like in
the first OTA is the jack said, I think through
like two picks, and it like there were people Milton
(05:44):
down there was an entire no like some former NFL
player like analyzing it, and I'm like, what are we
doing here with OTAs anymore. I'm I think the Browns
like almost similar to the Giants, like probably ride with
like Flacco, picket until things inevitably get pretty bad, and
then see what your Gabriel has. I Gabriel like I
(06:05):
watched him a little bit in college, just because he
was at UCF for like two years. He's now the
most notable UCF alumni in the NFL, as he's known
around my neighborhood after myself, you know.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Oh no, I was like, I'm trying to think as
UCF produced.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
I once asked, I won't say a player, but I
once asked, like a UCF alum who like played for
the Jags, like, hey, how were we going to do
this weekend? He goes, We like, yeah, I get it.
But now I mean the Browns I kind of view
like the Giants, like once the veterans kind of all off.
I think you probably see her in there.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
The most interesting thing, and I'm with you on the
ot is although some teams you know, treat them differently. Already,
the Patriots reporters there are like they're treating ota Is
way differently than Belichick did, where it was all about
like teaching and just whatever. It's like they're evaluating, they're
making him work a little harder. Some some coaches approach
it differently than others, but it's still without pads. The
only interesting thing to me about the Brown it is
(07:00):
just that they're doing this, that they're splitting it up
four ways.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
It's a wild way to do things.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
They're gonna have to make some choices evenly, and it
really shows to me that developing these rookies is important
to them, because it doesn't make that much sense to
me that you would have a third and a fifth
round pick taking first round first. You know, team reps
right away speaking of a high pick Caleb Williams. I
just wanted to close the book on the Caleb Williams story.
(07:25):
We talked about the Seth Wickersham piece about his father
and him considering their options before ultimately deciding they'd be
cool with the Bears, and Caleb Williams hadn't spoken to
the media about it, and he did speak today and
I was impressed. He had a four minute monologue off
the top of his head before taking any questions. Where
look as a twenty two to twenty three year old
(07:47):
kid who has heard everything. It wasn't some prerecorded statement.
We'll listen to a little bit of it right now and.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
Then after our camera visit here. It was a deliberate
answer and delivered and determined answer that I had is
that I wanted to come here, and just like Ben
spoke about, obviously, you know, the past years, as everybody knows,
it's a fact that quarterback play there hasn't been a
(08:15):
four thousand yard past or there's you know, there's all
these different things that come up, and so you know,
being able to have those thoughts is I think fair
to be able to have, you know, good and bad thoughts.
But like I said, I came here on a visit
and like I said, just like Ben said, you know,
it's it's a it's a it's a challenge to be
able to to come in here and try and turn around.
And that was the main goal of of of of
(08:38):
all of that.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
He went on from there before there, and he's in
a tough spot as a young kid, but that he
was absolutely right that not enough was made about the
part of the story where I was like, yeah, once
I went to Chicago, I immediately said, yeah, let's do it.
And so there's nothing that the city at Chicago should
hold against them, and I think their fans will appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Actually thought it was a good job.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
It did not seemed like he had been overly prepped,
although obviously like he thought about it, I'm sure over
the last week and a half. I mean he even
shouted out Kevin O'Connell and was like, yeah, I went
there and it was a great visit, and like, look,
he just won Coach of the Year.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Like I was, you know, impressed by it.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
But once once I was here, this is my city,
and I still think the story was a story. It
was not a non story like the Bears fans.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
We're all saying.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
But I thought he handled it well like you want
your franchise quarterback to handle it.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
No one hundred percent of story anytime, like you just
you know, since like Eli, we haven't seen any pick
really kind of player like exert their influence really on
the draft system. So anytime a player is considering it,
I think it's notable. Like we didn't see you know,
I know there was people trying to generate it, but
we didn't see Joe Burrow do it with Cincinnati when
it would have made sense. I mean, they still haven't
(09:47):
even signed the number seventeenth pick, and he's a defensive end,
let alone the number one pick who was a quarterback.
The Jaguars were going through a really bad era when
Trevor Lawrence was number one pick.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
You didn't see it there.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
He he had kind of a similar meat thing where
he did an interview with Sports Illustrated where he was
like his dad was like he could retire without winning
Super Bowl and he's perfectly content with his life, and
people obviously kind of latched onto that. So it's just
like a lesson, like when you're in that spot, like
anything you say, people are just going to take one
way or another regardless of how it's intended. And I
(10:19):
don't think he was even wrong, Like, look at how
is rookie season win. The Bears have devoted a ton
of resources now to make sure they can fix all
the issues he was kind of worried about before he
got drafted by them.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
It's funny because in the pre draft process there was
all this talk about, you know, how is Caleb Williams
as a leader and how much does he love ball
essentially and how he you know, handles his teammates and
everything and I think if you were just grading that
since the day that he got drafted, just based on
what I've heard from people that are there, just by
(10:52):
how his teammates talk about him, and just how I've
observed and deal with the media, that's all been an
A to A plus. And I think the on the
field play was like a Grady on a curve for
number one.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Overall pick was like a B B minus.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
But I think he'll be better this year because he's
going to have a lot more support and his old
friend Shane Waldron is down with you guys in Jacksonville.
You reminded me before the show. I kind of forget
about that.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
They swapped Shane Waldron and then Press Taylor went to Chicago.
So it's literally just Jags and Bears fans yelling at
each other on X every time one of their names
comes up.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
It's both funny and pretty unsettling.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Yeah, Jacks fans, calm down if you're getting on Shane Waldron.
Shane Waldron had a totally solid NFL assistant coaching career
before Lanny in Chicago, which is where coaches go to die,
and he was like year four of a not so
good eber Fluce Era, and I thought, actually did some
good things with Gino smith Beck in Seattle, so he's
not the play caller anyways. In Jacksonville, the key guy,
(11:51):
we'll talk about it in a second, is Liam Cohen.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Right.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
It was funny at the Combine. At Cohen's podium session,
somebody was like, so you hired Shane Waldron you you're
worried about the Chicago thing.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
He just goes, no, Yeah, what's he gonna say?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
I wanted to lead the show with Stefan Diggs, and
I thought, am I showing my Patriots bias? Or do
I think that Stefan Diggs partying on a boat with
his girlfriend Carti b and a number of other friends
is actually the perfect May story. I'd like to think
(12:29):
I would have thought that, regardless. I did not notice
in all those videos that were going around on the internet, however,
that he appeared to hand a substance, pink substance over
to uh to three girls after insisting that he they
call him daddy.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
And he did. And that is actually like.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Something that a reporter would ask Mike Rabel about. While
Diggs is not at OTAs, Let's listen to Mike Rabel.
Speaker 5 (12:59):
Well, let's something that we're aware of, and obviously we
want to make great decisions on and off the field,
and we're hoping that with our time here on the
field today and that when we don't have a script
and we're on the call up periods, that we're making
great decisions. And so the message will be the same
for all our players that we were trying to make
great decisions, and any conversations that I've had with Stefan
(13:21):
or remain between him and I and.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
The club.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Great decisions, Like I wouldn't have said it was a
bad decision to be on that boat and having fun
that it seemed it seemed fun the decision where it's
getting recorded yea, and then you're passing a suspicious looking
powdery subthence is where maybe it's not as great a
decision if you had the rank like.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
The thirty two NFL head coaches, and who'd be like
the most upset about something like this?
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Les like near the top right like it's it's the
perfect storm. He absolutely is.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
And you know, Digg's got a lot of guaranteed money
not pasted this year, so it's really like a one
year deal and Diggs hasn't been with the team lately
at OTAs he's recovering of course from that tour in
a cl and yeah video you can check it out.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
And yeah, my wife saw it on TikTok and send
it to me. And normally when it gets into her
realm and she's saying tiktoks about it, that's normally when
it's it's definitely escaped captivity.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Well, the more the more concerning part, I think for me,
just as someone who wants the best for Stefon Diggs'
you know, his high profile girlfriend is on that boat,
and that that conversation did not seem one like one
that or some of the actions going on.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
I'll just I'll just leave it right there.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Let's move on finally to some more sound. When Terry
Bradshaw has a great quote about not wanting Aaron Rodgers
on his team, I'm just gonna play it on the show.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
So let's listen. What do you think about possibly Aaron
Rodgers being the quarterback? That's a joke. He shouldn't. That is,
just to me, is a joke. What are you going
to bring him in for one year? You kidding? I mean,
that's not the white right no.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Man, that guy needs to stay in California, and thank
you you won't bark.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
And to the gods out there, I love that.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Uh, I'm chewing on some bark out here. I love
chewing on bark. It's just a strange sort of mind
blowing combination of things.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
But I agree with Terry Bradshaw on this one. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
No, it definitely seems like Terry Bradshaw thinks he has
like a California and tied eye hippie point of view
on on everything.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
I mean, not wrong with you, and on some bark.
I live in Florida. It's practically a delicacy. But I agree.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
I think it's so weird that the Steelers as no
organization or like doing this Aaron Rogers dance like it
made sense in like March, but like we're in the
middle of OTAs now. And I saw a quote today
like Mason Rudolph talking about DK Metcalf's athleticism and no
offense to Mason Rudolph, but that's a terrible omen for
the Steelers, And Mason Rudolph is who you have answering
questions about your new receiver, who you just you know, traded.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
For right and DK, by the way, is not even
there this week. Mason Ruff said he's been there about
half the time, not that that's a big deal. He
just got married, Like these are voluntary sessions. But you're
absolutely right that it's just awkward and a little embarrassing
that ultimately the Steelers kind of prostrated themselves, you know,
waiting for Aaron Rodgers to do this where I think
they know that he's joining the team sooner than later.
(16:21):
A couple other nuggets and then we'll talk to some Jaguars.
Just want to mention in terms of OTA absences. I
don't track each one like day to day, but Rayshawn Slater,
the tackle for the Chargers, TJ. Watt of the Steelers,
and Terry McLaurin weren't at practice for their teams, and
those are all three guys that I think are looking
for new contracts.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
So that's just something to keep an eye on.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
And then Tommy Tremble, if you're familiar with them, the
tight end of the Panthers had back surgery. That was
news to me and I think to Panthers fans, and
they're hoping he's going to be ready for the start
of the season. We will be back in just a
minute and talk a little Travis Hunter with my friend Job.
(17:06):
All right, as always, I took longer than I expected,
like flying through some relatively unimportant news.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
I thought we'd spend the whole show on the Jaguars.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
We just do five and but it's one of the
things I like about this NFL daily format is I'm
into the news almost all times a year, so I
do like to keep all the listeners informed.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Hopefully they enjoyed that part of it too. But yes, John,
you're there.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Travis Hunter, I'm convinced will be in the Jaguars Ring
of Honor someday.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
What is it called. I think it's called the Jaguar.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
I want to say it's Ride, okay, and then the
cheerleaders are the other one, right.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
It's I remember they had some special name for it.
And it's why I've killed the Browns for making this trade,
because I do believe in Travis Hunter that much, and
I know he's going to have to prove everyone right,
but I do think he's a guy that the people
are going to remember as a Jaguar for a very
long time, and that you have a long term plan
for him. And we are at the very very very
(18:07):
beginning of that long term plan. But what has like
the short term plan looked like practically on a day
to day basis.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Yeah, So I've seen him now practice three times or
once a rookie minting camp and then twice at OTA's.
They've held one other rookie mining camp day that media
wasn't at, and then two other OTA days. So I've
seen him practice three out of the six possible times
he's practiced. Every time i've seen him practice, he's been
on offense. And I don't know if that's like a
(18:37):
concentrated effort or a plan or whatever, but his days
on defense have been the days that the media haven't
been there. But the days that we've been there, it's
not like he's going back and forth or like somebody
even was like asking at the first rookie minute camp,
he's going to wear like a two like colored like
practice jersey where he just flips it inside out like
flag football, and it's going to be offensive defense. But
(18:57):
Liam Cohen, you know, made it pretty clear yesterday. You know,
he was asked there is going to be a time
where he's practicing both positions in one practice and he'll
probably have to do it during the season because practices
are so much shorter than it's also a lot less
physical practices because it's mostly game plan stuff and install
so but during OTA's during this time, he's not doing
(19:20):
like two things at once. So like if he's starting
the day at receiver, he's an in the day at receiver,
and he's you know, taking one hundred percent of his
reps on one side of the ball, whichever one he
starts at. But they've said, you know, he's practiced at
cornerback a couple of times. I said, he was at
cornerback at last Wednesday, so that'd be their third OTA practice,
So I guess he went two days at receiver, one
(19:40):
day at corner and then yesterday back to wide receiver.
So it's pretty clear where they have their focus on.
And you know, I'll be honest and like Frank like,
it probably is where it deserves to be because you
can tell, like from rookie Mini Caampo least, my thought was,
he's definitely a guy who needs to be taught the
finer points of position. He's never been able to just
like solely focus on it. You know, he's always been
(20:02):
going both ways. You kind of at Colorado it seemed
like they were just letting South less and take over.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
So to me, the plan makes sense.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
But I'm already seeing him honestly making strides in that department,
just the little things.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
A wide receiver, Okay, in a lot of ways that
could go there. Let's go back to what you said
that you're not surprised that they're doing it on offense.
Do you mean because that's where he would be more
valuable for this Jaguars team, that that just makes sense
for him to start his career there, or like that's
where he maybe needs more work is wide receiver, So
(20:33):
you started there.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
I honestly think it's a little bit of all of it.
I think obviously wide receiver versus corner wide receiver, Like
just look at the money and the contracts. Wide receivers
in a more valuable position right now. You know, Liam
Cohen's an offensive minded head coach. They said, like Tony
Boselli did like a complete media tour before you know,
the draft, and pretty much every time you know, he
did an interview, he's like, yeah, we're looking for guys
(20:56):
who can score touchdown, So obviously you know they're seeing
offenses more valuable. But I also think like the time
on task receivers probably where he needs it more than corner.
You go back to after they drafted him. James Gladstone
even said, you know he's spent he has spent more
time at corner in his football career, football life than
at wide receiver. So just getting that coaching each and
(21:17):
every single day, like he'd probably make a quicker and
easier transition to corner than wide receiver. But I also
think they see it as intrinsically a more valuable position too.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
See, I really respect your coverage. If you're interested in
like learning how a great you know, beat writer covers
the team, you should check out John's stuff. And I
listened to your pod and was checking out some of
the articles, just like wanting you to be irresponsible and
tell me how insanely explosive like Hunter has looked, and
that he just moves different than everyone else. And you're
(21:49):
on there saying, you know, D'ami Brown's probably made more
plays than anyone. Diami Brown's been awesome. It's like, no,
give me, give me the red meat. Tell me how
Travis Hunters looked.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
You See, I remember learning my lesson from Live year
from wondering when Ryan Nilson would get head coach interviews.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
So I've pulled back a little bit, but she's crazy.
Abrey Brown, you know, and Swartz and home it says
look good, but no, Travis Hunter. He has looked good.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Like from the first rookie minuting camp practice to yesterday,
I've seen him make significant strides because you could tell,
like his first rookie minute camp practice he was like
redoing drills like three or four times because he was
like messing it up, and the wide receivers coach had
a good minute would correct him and then instead of
just going to the back of the line, he'd go
right back to the front and restart it. You're not
seeing like you saw it a little bit the next
(22:33):
OTA practice and then this last one you just didn't
see it. So you're clearly seeing him mixed strides as
a route runner. He had some reps and I wrote that,
you know, he was impressive without the ball in OTA yesterday,
and I saw some fantacy account retweet it and be
like this is gibberous. I was a wide receiver impressive
without the ball, and like that.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
It happens all the time they're out there for like
sixty plays a game, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
And there were just a couple of reps and there
was one in particular against Jordan Lewis, who one of
the NFL's better slot cornerbacks. You know, they sign him
to a big deal, but he's been one of the
probably a top four to five nickel corners in the
NFL the Cowboys last couple of years. And Hunter just
the route that he ran, the explosiveness that he had
out of his break, Lewis couldn't keep up with him,
(23:16):
and he looked like the kind of mood where I'm like,
I don't know who can keep up with them. So yeah,
he's still warned the little fine details and stuff, but
he does move differently. He does move like a free
He does have that star power that you can just
automatically since wherever he lines up on the field like, okay,
this is a dude, he has all of that.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Right.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
I became so not that I was alone in this,
but and awored with him and convinced that he could
excel at both positions but at receivers specifically watching him,
not because I know enough or thought that he's so
refined as a route runner. Just that the guys that
do move differently on tape that you can just tell
(23:56):
move differently in a way that the game just really
slows down for them mentally and physically, where he can
control his body in a certain way that few others can.
Those guys translate to me, Odell Beckham was was certainly
one of them.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Malik Neighbors I think was one of them.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Justin Jefferson in the NFL is like the epitome of that.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
And frankly Brian Thomas Jr. Like his teammate, is one
of them.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
So I guess I'm curious how you've seen this coaching
staff come in and what kind of ideas you think
that they have. And I thought it's interesting you said, yeah,
like they're an offensive staff. Maybe that's why he's on offense,
because I've noticed they've been all about the offense, and like,
I get it, offense. I think it is more important
or it's a little more stable, and that makes sense
that you would start there.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
Yeah, it's more important to them, Like obviously to support
Trevor Lawrence, it is to have a good number two cornerback,
you know, and that's all things I think like we
can agree with and I think the Hunter pick was
in a lot of ways, like obviously, you know, adding
a guy who they think is an elite guy on
and off the field, but also as a way to
just help your quarterback because a lot of the things
(24:59):
that Tray does well and things that he won't need,
you know, years of developing a receiver at or things
that Liam Cohen scheme you know, automatically brings in. Like
Liam Cohen last year the Buccaneers, they were probably the
best screen team in the NFL. And he is a
really good scheme in terms of how he dials those
things up, you know, for wide receivers, for running backs
and Travis Hunter. I think he's going to feast on
(25:21):
those this year. I think, you know, if you want
a candidate for and I'm a Trevor Lawrence like, I'm
a fan of his game.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
I think he's a good quarterback. I think he's better
than most people do.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
But I could definitely see, like his production this year,
there to be some you know, fugazi fakeness to it,
just because they have the pieces between the scheme and
the talent. I think to really eat on the easy
button kind of things like that, and that's where I
think Hunter will make everybody's life kind of easier on offense.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Okay, so how do you think him and Brian Thomas
Junior compliment each other? Because I was so high on
Thomas Junior that I've brought it up many times because
it ended up being right, unlike most of the takes
that I have, where I don't think anyone would have
expected him to be a top twenty receiver right out
(26:08):
the jump, which I think he was, Like he was
already a top fifteen twenty receiver. If you're being conservative
as a rookie, how do you like I guess I'm
curious just what you saw from him and everything that
you think about him, and then how he fits with
Hunter and with Liam Cohen and Trevor how because that's
to me, the model here is like Cincinnati. It's it's
(26:28):
Tampa too, but it's like Cincinnati that like this. These
are the three pillars along with the head coach of
your organization.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Now one hundred percent, he is like, like you said,
one the pillars there are when a new regime comes
in the way I see it is the new regime
has their guys, They have the leftover guys from the
older regym that they'll kind of pick through, and the
Deerman who they want to keep. And then there's a third,
much smaller group of guys who are just cornerstones that
it doesn't matter who picked them, any regime wants them.
And Brian Thomas Jr. Like to me, is right at
(26:56):
the top with Trevor Lawrence, Josh einz Allen, Travis Hunter
on that list. I think even with the addition of
Travis Hunter and you know, even the on my Brown
that the passing offense is still going to run through
Brian Thomas. I think that, you know, one of the
first things Liam Cohen kind of said, you know, to
the local media when he got here was like, when
he was evaluating receivers, he was like, I probably didn't
(27:17):
evaluate Brian Thomas as much as hard as I should have,
because obviously Tampa, you know, wasn't looking for a receiver
in the first round. But you know, he gave credit
to the last jag war staff or how often they
put him in the slot and seeing what he could
do from there, and he know that, you know, he's
a really really good deep threat, but he's more than
that and that's what I really noticed from him last year.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Like obviously he has a crazy speed.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
You know, you can get open deep on anybody to
catch radious, but his releases off the line, his body
movements for a guy who's you know, that tall and
has that frame, just his quick snaps, the way he
can get low and break. He can run pretty much,
you know, any route, any kind of scheme, whatever you want.
He to me has all the tools you're looking for
in a number one receiver. Literally the thing he the
one thing I think he has to get better at
(27:59):
is catch in the football, which is you know, a
pretty natural thing.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Like you know, some of his touchdowns last year he
like double clutched it.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
But every I think he has every trade to excel,
especially with this new staff scheme, and they absolutely love him.
Everybody in that building, like things that do is a star.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Speed.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Speed is like at that level is just so hard
to find. And we'll see how Diami Brown works out.
You know, for the listeners that forget like did not
have a lot of production for Washington, but really came
on in the playoffs. Had two of the best games
of his life in the playoffs, which helped him get
like a one year, ten million dollar contract, which in
this market is like number three, number four receiver, buddy,
(28:39):
And you said he's looked great. And so the three
of them, man, they can not just you know, get
to the intermediate level really quickly and and have those
sort of timing throws that I think Lawrence can be
great at. But they can set up each other where
one of them, as you mentioned, like Hunter, half his
catches last year were just on.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Those those bubbles and screens and everything.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Many the guys going deep can open it up for
each other on the short stuff.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
They're all pretty versatile. Like I am excited.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I know, I had you on in August and I
was thinking, let the Jaguars. I'm not sure which direction
they're gonna go, but I do find them interesting. They
were like a boom or bust team, and they definitely busted,
but I think they're gotta be more entertaining to watch.
How how's the Liam Cohen experience been for you as
a as a guy covering the team? Obviously he made
(29:29):
you know a lot of waves with his introductory press confidence,
but how's it kind of bed since then?
Speaker 4 (29:34):
No?
Speaker 3 (29:35):
I remember sitting there, like you know, in the crowd
like ten feet away from the second he said it,
I was like, wow, the second I.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Look at my phone is gonna be absolutely now.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
He's honestly been really good to cover, like from our
perspectives so far, Like I know some people will cover
the Buccaneers said he was always good in the media.
There one thing I'll say about him, honestly is he's
incredibly like on the podium, like honest in some of
his responses in a way I haven't really seen the
coaches I've covered. You know, Doug Morone didn't really say
anything Urban Meyer. He not only you know, being honest
(30:08):
is not one of his strong suits. He barely knew
the roster. He called James Robinson James the running back,
Roy Robinson Harris was Roy Roberts. Just stuff like that,
so you weren't getting anything from him. Doug Peterson was
like the classic like pink by numbers, like NFL coach
in terms of like coach speak, like he was just
giving you the generic stuff. Lee was very honest, Like
he was asked about their rookie running back, you know,
(30:31):
baishall tutent after the first OTA's and he like fumbled
the ball in his very first rep and somebody asked
him after their practice there, like, how's Tutent doing it?
He goes, well, he fumbled today. That stood out, and
it was just like an honesty to me that, like
I'm not like in the past, you know, i'd probably
hear him be like, oh, well, you know, he's making progress.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
We'll see how it does.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
So just in terms of getting actual interesting answers and
stuff we can write about, he's been good. I think
in terms of the x's and o's what they'll bring
schematically just to make them a more interesting team, I
definitely think that they'll bring because that's been a thing
with the Jaguars, like they've had all like the pieces
in terms of the players to be an interesting team.
The last couple of years, it just never seems like,
(31:08):
you know, the front office and coaching staff have pulled
their weight in that area too, And now it feels like,
you know, they're doing that.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Yeah, we'll see.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Sometimes the rookie head coaches are like more transparent and
they actually come into it wanting to be transparent. Like
I don't know what Doug Peterson was like his first
year in Philadelphia and then by year three, it's a
different state of affairs or by year whatever it was
thirty seven for Urban Meyer, I don't know where he
was at. What did you say? Telling the truth was
(31:36):
not his strong point? That's a that's a very nice
way to say. He was like a lying liar who
always lied all the time.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
And it's probably the nicest thing I've said about him. Yeah,
it didn't seem like.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
There's liam. Yeah, it didn't seem like Urban was too
invested in the job.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
That still feels the same dream, that still feels like
the weirdest, like nine months a month.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
I'm excited really to just watch Hunter and to hear about, yeah,
how these first practices have been. And is interesting to
think how they're bringing him along because he's he's in
defensive meeting rooms though too, right, So see he's like
doubling up with the meetings.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
How does that work? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Yeah, so while he's not like doubling up on the
practice shield, they did say he's been doubling up into meetings,
which seems immensely difficult, like at least to me, like
they I guess from their perspective. And Hunter even said
after working Mini CAMPI, He's like, well, the defense is
easier to learn than the offense because I guess, you know, like, yeah,
there's different calls and stuff, but defense, like like coveragees
(32:36):
or coverages.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
You know, not many people are throwing that many twists
on it.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Whereas Liam Cohen, it seems like from everybody's description, like
his playbook is vast, and like Frank and steinish.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
That it's just something we literally have never seen before
covering in my time covering the league, but in really
anyone's time covering the league, because you'd have to go
back to like the nineteen fifties and it's just not
even close to.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
The same sport.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Before I let you go, I did notice you had
a hot take on your website being very upset it's
ranking season, John, and you were not happy that Trayvon
Walker was not even listed in PFF's top thirty two.
And I don't put too much into the rankings because
if you make a ranking, people are obviously going to
disagree with some of it, so it happens. But I
(33:24):
do think we're entering year four Trayvon Walker. We'll see
if he gets a contract extension or not. Where do
you see him as this number one overall pick that
a lot of people have picked on over the years
because he hasn't been as good as Aiden Hutchinson. Where
are you in the Trayvon Walker journey and where do
you think, like PFF, maybe national people get it wrong
(33:44):
if we are.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
No, I even mentioned in my pod that's coming out
tomorrow and that like I'm aware I'm feeding into the
machine when I do that, I'm very aware of Fine,
that's my desired you know. Effect Travon's a guy who
I've honestly come around a decent on. After his rookie season,
I was like, like I was like openly going on
like radio shows and Jackson'll be like, I don't know
(34:06):
if he's ever going to be a double digit sack
I like, he'll probably be fine, like get like seven
or eight sacks a season, be a good run defender.
He's fine, But I didn't think he'd ever be like
a double digit sack guy. And then suddenly he's done
it in back to back years and I in complete
agreement that, like he's not like a top ten, fifteen,
probably even top twenty edge. I think like last year
(34:27):
for PFF, he was like nineteenth and pressures but fourth
and pass rush attempts, So he just doesn't have the
efficiency as a pure pressure guy. But I do think
we've gotten to a point where he is underrated because
I mean, he's at least getting sack production. His productions
increased each year he's twenty four. He plays the run well.
It seems like for at least what the Jaguars envisioned
(34:48):
when they picked him at number one, which was to
start slow and then to kind of gradually get better
and become a pretty good player. It kind of seems like,
you know, like you can question Balky picking him over Hutchinson,
but at least Bulkey's evaluation of him and how his
career arc would go, it kind of seems like he
was right so far. But as long as Aiden Hudgson's around,
I do think Trayvon's probably going to be in that
(35:10):
weird kind of perception area.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Yeah, But the thing is, he's only he's only twenty four,
and this idea that he's this incredibly talented physical specimen
that's going to get better and better, and he has
like he can continue to get better, And here's the
real test, Like I'd be very surprised if he didn't
get a very good second contract from the Jaguars, and
if you had taken him number four overall or number
(35:35):
six overall and you're the Jaguars, like he is as
good or better than half or more than like the
number six seven overall. Guys, he just got taken number
one and it was a weird draft and that's not
his fault. But considering what a risky pick he was
at the time, I'm with you. I think I don't
know if he's underrated, but I'm not sure the conventional
(35:56):
wisdom has caught up to like he's a plus starter,
and half of the top ten picks don't even turn
into plus starters. This is how the NFL draft works.
So ultimately, like he's been a pretty good pick. He's
just not Aiden Hutchinson at least then yet.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Yeah, like if Aidan Hudgerson wasn't in a draft and
Kavon Tibada went number two, like the Trayvon pick, probably
like natural nationally looks a lot better.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
That's a good point. Uh, Kavon was in that draft?
Is that correct?
Speaker 4 (36:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Yeah, I could.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
I remember I had Trayvon as my I missed on everything.
I had Trayvon as my number three edge, I had
kaveon number one over Hudgson because I was like, I don't.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
Know about the short on Hutchson guy.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
I was having a bulky moment and then it just
blew up on me completely on all levels.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
It's a great shout though, because a lot of draft
Twitter agreed with you, and I think I might have
had it lined up that way too. At least Thibodeau
over Trayvon Walker was totally consensus, and ultimately between those
two players, Walker's absolutely.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Been the better pro.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
So I just you know, we don't we don't talk
Jaguars enough on this show. I feel like it's been
a nice heavy AFC South week. We talked a lot
of Titans on our last show. It's that time of year.
We should be giving the AFC South some love. And
I'm glad for you, John that you got Travis Hunter
because he got married this weekend.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
I'm buying into.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Just like that he is an intangibly rich guy that's
got to change the culture, just because he just seems
like such an infectious, like amazing spirit.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
I'm buying into all of that.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
And because of that, John, I think he's going to
have this like crazy epic career and you're going to
be there to capture all of it. Appreciate you, John,
I appreciate you. Man all with check Out John, as
I mentioned Jaguars on SI and the Jaguars Insider podcast.
We will be back wrapping up the week. It's going
to go into your feed Friday morning. That will be
(37:41):
with our good friend Patrick claibhann talking about some veterans
under a little bit of fire and yeah, like we
got a new party boat. We got a party boat
story to talk about. You know, football is back.
Host
Gregg Rosenthal
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