December 12, 2025 • 30 mins
Jourdan Rodrigue is joined by Carolina Panthers EVP of Football Operations, Brandt Tilis, to talk about how Tilis uses analytics to make an impact on the Panthers, his upbringing with the Chiefs, how he balances focusing on the Panthers' long-term goals while staying current in this season, what vibe he wants in the organization and more.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi, everybody, This is Jordan Rod Reagan.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I am so excited to share with you a new
capsule series for NFL Daily called NFL Daily Power Players.
As many of you know, I love football. One of
my favorite things about the NFL is learning about how
teams are built, how decision makers from coaches to executives
to scouts to players think, and the process itself of
(00:28):
the sport. How people do football is the coolest and
I know you think so too.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
So in these episodes of.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
NFL Daily Power Players, We're going to talk to football
people and learn from them and pull back the curtain
of the sport for you just a little bit further.
We'll sprinkle these into your feed from time to time,
a little extra treat for our loyal listeners. Today, I'm
interviewing Brandt Tillis. He is the executive vice president of
football Operations for the Carolina Panthers, and that means he's
(00:58):
basically the central hub of a vast commands center. Brant
directs everything from how the Panthers use their salary cap
and handles contract negotiations. He runs their operations, including analytics, data, video,
and related tools. He handles the CBA and other legal
NFL rule book matters, and he works with GM Dan
Morgan on scouting and talent identification in free agency and
(01:21):
the draft. Brandt is a football lifer. He worked his
way up through the league for years and spent the
last decade and a half helping to shape what we
now know as the Kansas City Chiefs dynasty. And yes,
that means that he has three Super Bowl rings. He
loves to build things, which is what Drew Panthers owner
(01:41):
Dave Tepper and GM Dan Morgan to him back in
twenty twenty four. And that's great news for us because
we love to know how things are built.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
So let's get into it. Here's Brent Tillis. Brand Hi,
thank you so much for joining.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Me this week. Welcome to NFL Daily power Players. So
now moving forward, I guess you can introduce yourself as
Brandt Tillis power player. I know that really would be
right up your alley about, you know, kind of fly
in league circles.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
I would imagine, Oh, there's no doubt that people would
never give me any kind of grief for calling myself
a power player, especially my family.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yeah, well, we're so happy to have you.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
We are so excited to talk to you today, and
I really want to start with this because this is
like you know when you ask people, are you a
dog person or a cat person? Like this is the
defining quality and question to discern someone's personality in my book,
And that is why football?
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Why did football become your career? Why?
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Mainly luck? I was not an athlete growing up. I
love sports, but was not a good athlete, and sports
was my passion, watching sports, memorizing box scores, baseball cards,
basketball cards, all of those things, and I just knew
(03:02):
I wanted to find a way in I was I've
always enjoyed working for a team, being part of a team,
and competing, so just trying to find a way to
contribute to sports. I've always been math based, so trying
to just figure out, all right, how can I take
(03:23):
the things I'm good at and apply them to things
I'm passionate about? In football? Fit the mold I was.
I was lucky enough to be connected with a mentor
of mine named Mark Benain. Mark is now the president
of the Oakland Athletics, but at the time he was
with the Oakland Raiders And oh wait, no, they're not
(03:43):
the Oakland athletics right there, and I think they're just
called the athletics now. But anyways, Mark Mark was able
to help me get an internship with the Raiders and
from there just kind of went on my path. And yeah,
I just I love competing, I love winning, and I
love being part of something great.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
I think it's so cool that you.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Being someone that, like you said, had a real acumen
for math and sort of a math background, but you
found a way into football where I think sometimes when
we're kids, especially when we're growing up, we're going through
the business, you almost wouldn't conflate the two, or you
wouldn't put one and two together. But what sparked for you,
what made you feel like that could be and data
(04:28):
and building teams could be a part of no pun intended,
kind of pun intended.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Your overall equation boo. I know, I know, I know.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
I'm a fan of a good pun. They're probably been
two things for me. One was playing Madden and fancy football,
and just like understanding that math and especially when it
comes to South Cap and analytics, like those things do
(05:03):
apply to winning games. But I think the light really
turned on for me and everything kind of clicked into
place when I read Moneyball after my I want to say,
my senior year in high school reading that book, and
I just realizing that, oh wow, there is like there's
(05:25):
an entire complex of analytics and numbers and stats and
all of these things, and like people make good decisions
based off these numbers, and people also can make bad decisions.
And so just just learning that, like there's a there's
(05:46):
a way for me to really contribute. And that was
that was inspiring to me.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I love I love that because you said something. I
was listening and you know, doing my research on you,
and and I was listening to a cast you did
with with Field Yates, and you said something that I
made sure to write down. When you were coming up
in the ranks, and you you very much worked your
way up, and one of the things you said was
I just told myself to find a way to make
(06:13):
myself useful. And it sounds so simple, but what did
that What did that look like for you, especially knowing
you had this passion and sort of like an uncharted
territory at that.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Time, making myself useful was not easy, but it was
It was being very aware of what was happening, like
all all around me. So when I was at the
League office getting to know the people and the people
and what like, Okay, this person's job is to do this,
(06:45):
and this person's job is to do that, and you know,
these are the things that we have to accomplish as
as a unit, as a department, and you know, where
are there inefficiencies here? And so like one of the
kind of most let's just call it boring things for
my department, League office to do with something called deferred compensation,
(07:06):
which is which is a bad word to agents because
it requires funding. I can get into all the all
the all the details here, but essentially, teams have to
show the money that they have guaranteed to players for
the next year. They have to they have to put
that into an ESCRO account. And for the longest time,
(07:29):
trying to figure out how much money was would go
into these ESCRO accounts was like one of the worst
jobs in the department. And so it fell like onto
me as the lowest person on the totem pole there
and just showing like okay, like here's actually an easy
way to do this, here's a different way to look
(07:50):
at at how to track these things. And then it
was kind of a light went on. I think for everyone, Oh, wow,
like we can we can make this process better. Oh,
and then we can use that what we learned from
that process to make you know, tracking rookie contracts better,
and we can track you know, all of the veteran
contracts better. And so just being an outsider coming in
(08:15):
and taking let's just call it an ignorant view of things,
but it's blissful and making it work.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
I love that because, you know, when you when you
leave the league office and then you go back to
working for teams, so much of what you're also doing,
as well as trying to you know, kind of maximize
your lane and then also discover new lane scouting and
talent identification and x's and o's, you know, beyond what
you had already known, and all of those things, you're
(08:46):
also trying to explain high concept things, especially quantitative and
mathematical things to football people who respectfully don't all always
want to hear those things or or want to even
dip a toe in that water. How did you learn
(09:06):
how to be a math to football, data to football
you know, analytics to football translator and sort of build
those bridges.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
I've always been able to connect with different kinds of people.
So that's that's that's one way is making friends has
always been fairly easy to me. So just talking to people,
getting to know, getting to understand, all right, this is
what this person's interested in, this is how to reach
(09:38):
this person, this is how to connect with this person.
I've always been able to kind of figure figure that out.
Sometimes it might take me a minute, but I can.
I can, I can figure that that beans out. But
the other thing too is and you know this because
you've been around teams like you've been embedded with teams football,
people are much more curious then I think the public
(10:01):
gives them credit for. So when I was in Kansas
City to start out, and we had coming up with
me like at the at the at the bottom of
the of the organization, it was it was Ryan Poles,
it was it was Field Yates, it was Mike Borganzi,
(10:22):
Ryan Nutt, who's the one of the VPS of player
Personnel Kansas City. They were all very curious people and
they wanted to know as much as they could about
the salary cap, about analytics, and I want to as
much as I could about scouting, about how to how
to build a team, how to how to look at players,
(10:43):
how to deal with coaches, all those things. So we
were able to kind of grow together. And then another
person who I'm sure you're familiar with, who was really
helpful there was Ray Farmer. Ray would always just push
us and just sometimes even to like to the point
of annoyance of he would play the devil's advocate, even
(11:04):
when he didn't believe it. He would just say, Okay, well,
defend that position. Okay, you want to trade a six
round pick for this player, defend it. And he may
he may agree with it, but he would force us
to just to just dig a little deeper. And so
I think just so building those relationships was really helpful
to me, and and I think it served me well.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
There's such a communal I think process element to it, right,
because if you walk across the office, it's the same
conversations happening, the offensive coordinators trying to get their calls
onto the play callers call sheet for that game, and
arguing the why of things and trying to make convincing arguments, right,
(11:45):
And I think so much about football is a functional argument.
And I guess we would call it problem solving, but
I guess that that takes a skill to argue, but
I have not mastered it personally to argue, but to
do so functionally.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Yeah, well, and that's that's the beauty of working for
a team is everybody just we just want to win.
So whatever gets us to winning is where we all
want to be. And I think as long as there's
respect to someone's viewpoint, and then at the end the
decision is made and it's our decision, so long as
(12:24):
we're there, everything else is just it's just a conversation.
And you know, you never let it get personal, and
it shouldn't. Then I don't. I don't think it ever has,
at least in my experience. And it works.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Love that and Brenton, you know, Carolina is building something.
In my opinion, it teamed very near and dear to
my own heart, is really building something solid. And to me,
it's keeping an eye on some of the I guess
more chaotic moments that have happened, the late game wins,
(13:00):
late game losses, things that are can be so up
and down through the course of the season. But it
takes a collective talent and this collaboration that you and
Dan Morgan have and then the people in the building
to kind of ride those waves on the one hand,
but keep an eye on the long term too. And
(13:21):
I guess I wonder regardless of what happens over the
course of a week by week result, like how do
you pull data points from what could be valuable from
those wins and losses without getting too caught up in
the wins and losses? Like how do you take a
long term look at what's happening to the team in
(13:43):
the short term.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
It's hard, It's really hard, especially when we're in the
building phase of our life cycle. So we want to
keep on developing our players, developing our culture and building
this thing so that it's sustainable moving forward. But at
the same time, like right now we're seven and six,
(14:10):
we're right in the middle of a playoff race, So
so how do we how do we do both things
at once? And what we look for is what is
stable about us winning? And then what is let's call
it fluky or lucky, And it could be it could
(14:31):
be what's stable about us losing too, Like what is
stable and what is fluky and what's lucky? And and
how do we lean into the stability and make this
the stable things better and minimize our reliance on on luck.
And so after each game we just we just talk about,
all right, here are the things that went that went well,
(14:53):
here are the things that we could improve on, and
and if those things that went well are are stable,
then we feel pretty good about where we are. If
we think they were lucky, okay, we have something to
work on, like we we need to improve in these
other areas or else our results are going to be
luck reliant. And like an example that I have of
(15:20):
this is and sorry, I have to go back. I
have to go back a long ways because it's it's
like the the core memory, if you will, of this
is my first year in Kansas City. It was twenty ten.
We played the Cardinals and we beat him. We've beat
him pretty good. We beat him thirty one to thirteen.
(15:42):
And there was a third down play. We were up
seven three. There's a third down play Tim high Tower.
Do you remember Tim high Tower? Yeah, so Tim Tim
Tim high Tower, gets gets a swing pass, makes a
guy miss and he's running for the first down. It
was third and nine. He's running for the first down
and Eric Barry came running downhill and knocked them out
(16:02):
of bounds right right at the at the sticks, and
so Arizona punted the ball back to us. We got
a couple chunk plays, scored a touchdown, We're up fourteen
to three, and then we were often running in the game.
But if Eric doesn't make that play, what happens in
that game? Like, that game could have been way different. So, yes,
(16:25):
we won by eighteen, but had that play not happened something,
the result could have been completely different. And so we
looked for those moments here, like, what are those moments
that the game could have flipped on us? It could
have been a penalty call, it could have been look,
it could have been a last second field goal by
Ryan Fitzgerald. It could be a lot of different things.
(16:49):
But finding out where are those plays and are those
are those repeatable is really important to the process.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
I say this only slightly tongue in cheek, but it
is rather amazing that you do have so many friends
considering you have to be the guy that says, hey,
that could have been lucky.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Guys, let's not get.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Too excited for this right after a win and all
the all the emotions of the game flowing, But you
you have to look at things squarely in the face.
I mean, that's that's how good teams get good and
stay good.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Yep, yeah, And it's a I mean it's a it's
a core tenet of ours here is just being truth
tellers to each other.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Okay, we're going to take a quick break, but there's more.
With Brent Tillis on the other side here on NFL Daily,
we love to take analysis and turn it into a game.
(17:48):
It is our way, and you seem to me like
just the perfect person to kind of play this team
building game with, especially because I do think you think
about things in like you mentioned, and like we've talked
about such a I would say microscopic and telescopic space
at this at the same time. So, if you're building
(18:10):
a team brand, you're starting from scratch. There's there's no
groundwork in the organization. Let's say this hypothetical team on Mars,
right that exists, and you're building from scratch, and you
can only make three very important core decisions. We'll go
one by one. What's the first decision that you make
on Mars.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Well, you know we.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
That's going to be oxygen.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
I'm just giving it environment and atmosphere, not burning up
there's three.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
The first place that my head goes to with this
is like, is vibes. What do we want the vibes
of our organization to be? And I just think back
to my the first time I got to meet with
the Tappers in person, it was in their dining room
at their home here in Charlotte, and and I walk
(19:01):
into the house and Nicole greets me, and she's a
phenomenal host and welcoming and gracious. And then I sit
down at the dining room table, and then Dave walks
in and he starts playfully ribbing me about my socks.
I the only pair of blue socks I had had
my kids faces on him, so I wore it. He's
(19:24):
give me a hard time about the socks, and.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Right, like, of course, that yeah, right.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Right, And and Christy Coleman was there, our president, and
a couple other members of the organization, and we it
was a great conversation, and it was you're not You're
not supposed to use the word comfortable in football, right,
Nobody wants to be comfortable, But it was so I'll
just say it was secure. It was I felt like
(19:51):
I was sitting around my family's dining room table with
my parents and sister and brother and aunts and uncles
and cousins, and it was just it was banter. It
was it was disagreements, it was agreements, It was playful,
it was fun, it was curious. It was exactly like
(20:13):
it was all of those things. And so I felt
coming out of that conversation like, Okay, this is like,
this is pretty interesting. If these are the people who
own the team and they are this open and they
are this enjoyable to talk to, I cannot imagine what
the rest of the building is like. And sure enough
I walked in the first day I was here, and
(20:34):
it was it was that. And so that's not every building, right,
Some buildings are going to be different. Some buildings are
going to be are going to be like a little
more corporate, right, and then like some more you know,
some industries they want like a boiler room type atmosphere
that's like go go, go go go, like that's and
that's us at times, but not all the time. And
(20:58):
and so then I just think about along with vibes,
like all right, what are the words that we're using,
how are we communicating with each other. One of the
things that we're big on here is is trying to
not use absolutes always never, definitely, no way and being
just being more curious. And so so I think once
(21:18):
you set your like the vibes as I just called it,
I think you're in a good spot.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
I I love that you include language in that because
I think that a failure to sustain a universal language,
whether it's the language of your scouting department and or
the language like you just said, how people speak to
each other in the building. I actually my theory is
that's the number one reason why teams fail. It's it's
(21:47):
nobody understanding each other, right, and that's inclusive to the
language of talent identification and everything. And you know, you
say the word vibes, but it just it's so it's
so layered, and I guess you know, for me thinking
about that, and you have to be so anthropological when
you go into a building like that. That's the biggest
(22:09):
decision to that point you know that you're making. And
so you know, I think when people look at your
title and and your job and they see the numbers
and everything, but you're scouting, this is anthropology, this is sociology.
You're looking you're trying to feel things just as much
as you are to understand them.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Yeah, no doubt. And it's hard, but it's also fun
and it's rewarding, and if you're doing it with great
people like we've got here. We've got We've got coach Canals,
we got Dan Morgan, We've got a whole staff of
people who they are like minded in that we're just
driven to win. We just want to win, and we
(22:50):
just want to put a good product on the field
and make our fans proud.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Okay, what's your second major decision that you'd make besides oxygen?
Speaker 3 (23:00):
I thought the vibe. I thought the yeah oxygen, I
thought the vibe. Answer was so good. You wouldn't make
me do too many.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Well, you know we're sticklers here, you know, So.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
After vibes, I would I would probably go to how
do we want to lead? So? What does what does
leadership look like in our organization? And I can't speak
to everywhere else. I can only speak to my experience,
and like, where are we going to find positive tension
within our leadership? How we we have people that are
(23:31):
on different they approach the problem with different timelines. Right,
You've got to coach. Coaches are wired to win the
next day, right, and then you've got a GM, and
the GM's wired to win for the next one to
three years. And then you've got you've got a president
(23:51):
and and they're wired to operate or to want to
win for the next ten to fifteen years. And everybody wants,
you know, they want the longer timeline, but their focus
is going to be on those on those timelines. And
so how do you have the conversations of let's let's
get to where we want to go and provide tension
(24:15):
to each other. And that is am I making sense there?
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (24:18):
One.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
I love that because it goes back to what you
were talking about, arguing functionally and challenging each other and
pushing each other, but without the uh like egotistical parts
of that seeping in or or being able to to
look at difficult conversations very bluntly.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
And I think it's starting.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
I mean, and I love the process you're building these
with because it does start with number one, the vibue.
You have to make sure that the dynamic is correct
and the languages is understood in the building before you
can decide how much you can push people even when
you understand their problem solving is all coming from a
different angle.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
You're all trying to get to the same goal. So far,
so far, I got to say.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
I'm pretty impressed because I think when you give someone
three decisions, you know, to build an entire team with, they're.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Like, well, uh, okay, uh quarterback.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
But even before that, you have to have these fundamental
things in place before you can even think about roster decisions,
before you can even think about you know, what the
nuts and bolts of the actual team look like.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
Right, And and so for us here in Carolina, like
we're we're building this. Yeah, I believe we're building it
the right way. Time time will certainly tell, but we're
I think we're on the right track here. And and
the tension that we all provide to each other, and
I'm very fortunate to be to be part of the
(25:47):
tension that I can provide with with coach Canals and
with Dan and the tension that's happening in those conversations
is is what's helping to drive our building process. And
then you know, you you combine that with with Coach
(26:09):
Canals's positive energy and the fact our players are playing
hard and the results are they're they're coming and some
of them are there, and and I think the best
Panthers football is ahead.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Of us well as again near and dear to my heart,
that makes me happy to hear. I've had so much
fun watching you guys this year too. And a great
answer to that question is not going to let you
off the hook for your third major decision that that
you're making here on Mars.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
You are you already answered it because once, I think,
once you have those two things in place, once you've
got your vibes, and once you know how you want
to lead, you can then figure out, all right, who
is going who fits these these parameters and who is
going to lead us, who's going to be our head coach,
who's going to be our GM, who's going to be
(27:01):
our quarterback? Like those So while the fans are getting
excited about who it's going to be, and they're you know,
you're they're reading the lists of the candidates and who
it could be, the hardest part about that process is
looking within yourself. And that's the first two questions and
now the rest of it, it just it just answers itself.
(27:22):
And you know, I wasn't I wasn't lucky enough to
be I wasn't able to be part of the interview
process with with coach Canalis. But I mean, this is
the same process that we used when we hired a
lot of good people who who work here now who
are helping us win, like Denny Callington, our head trainer
(27:44):
and vice president of medicine, Josh Hanks, our director of performance,
and Erki Or our vice president of analytics. This is
the same process we did for that. It's at the
end of the day, it's hr and it's really not
that much different than scouting, right It's just like, Okay,
these are the things we need, Let's find somebody who
(28:06):
fits those things. Rather than being compelled by a great
interview right like right now, I'm wearing a vest right now,
like I look like I just gave a really good
PowerPoint presentation. Don't be fooled by this. It's all about
what you actually are.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Oh man, I love that, And that speaks again to
kind of your more anthropological.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Nature and the curiosity.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
It's a breath of fresh air brand honestly, because you know,
there is so much curiosity in that building and a
thinking of you know, what's around the next corner, and
how do we do it? Together and you feel it,
and I've felt it for a couple of years there now,
and it's exciting times.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
I'm very aware.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
We've taken up way too much of your time today,
but I love I love talking to you about this.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
I love talking about how people.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Build things, and I know you love to think about
how to build things. And so we're real grateful to
you for joining us on power Players. If you don't
introduce yourself one time, at least as a as an
NFL daily power Player over the course of like the
Combine or something like that, you know I'll have an
ear out for it.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
I think send a T shirt. Make get T shirts
made it, send it.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
That will get you.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Actually, we'll get you a vest you're wearing a ghast.
We'll put it right next to the little Carolina Panthers head.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
There we go.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Perfect or socks.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
I guess Dave Tepper would notice if you had it on.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
I definitely noticed the socks. May have a video from
the draft room of him making fun of my socks too.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
That's incredible brand, what a pleasure. Thank you so much
for joining us today.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
Thanks Jordan, it was great.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
That was Brent Tillis. We thank him for his time.
I honestly I could have talked with him probably all
day about how he thinks about team building. I especially
loved how he has such a mathematical and analytical background,
but he it truly is a translator and an anthropologist
in that he takes this really human and culture based
approach to team building and really resetting an organization in
(30:10):
a very, very in depth and layered way, and getting
the steps of the process right before thinking.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
So much about the results.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
I loved what he said about being really honest about
what's lucky and what's actual process. I think that that's
actually kind of a rare way to look at things
across the league, especially we get so caught up in
wins and losses. So thank you Brandt for your insight today,
thank you for your time, Thank you to our listeners
for helping to make this happen. We are going to
(30:40):
be back with more episodes of NFL Dailies Power Players
as a season and off season continue, and you can
find those and every episode of NFL Daily wherever you
get your podcasts.
Hi, everybody, This is Jordan Rod Reagan.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I am so excited to share with you a new
capsule series for NFL Daily called NFL Daily Power Players.
As many of you know, I love football. One of
my favorite things about the NFL is learning about how
teams are built, how decision makers from coaches to executives
to scouts to players think, and the process itself of
(00:28):
the sport. How people do football is the coolest and
I know you think so too.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
So in these episodes of.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
NFL Daily Power Players, We're going to talk to football
people and learn from them and pull back the curtain
of the sport for you just a little bit further.
We'll sprinkle these into your feed from time to time,
a little extra treat for our loyal listeners. Today, I'm
interviewing Brandt Tillis. He is the executive vice president of
football Operations for the Carolina Panthers, and that means he's
(00:58):
basically the central hub of a vast commands center. Brant
directs everything from how the Panthers use their salary cap
and handles contract negotiations. He runs their operations, including analytics, data, video,
and related tools. He handles the CBA and other legal
NFL rule book matters, and he works with GM Dan
Morgan on scouting and talent identification in free agency and
(01:21):
the draft. Brandt is a football lifer. He worked his
way up through the league for years and spent the
last decade and a half helping to shape what we
now know as the Kansas City Chiefs dynasty. And yes,
that means that he has three Super Bowl rings. He
loves to build things, which is what Drew Panthers owner
(01:41):
Dave Tepper and GM Dan Morgan to him back in
twenty twenty four. And that's great news for us because
we love to know how things are built.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
So let's get into it. Here's Brent Tillis. Brand Hi,
thank you so much for joining.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Me this week. Welcome to NFL Daily power Players. So
now moving forward, I guess you can introduce yourself as
Brandt Tillis power player. I know that really would be
right up your alley about, you know, kind of fly
in league circles.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
I would imagine, Oh, there's no doubt that people would
never give me any kind of grief for calling myself
a power player, especially my family.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yeah, well, we're so happy to have you.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
We are so excited to talk to you today, and
I really want to start with this because this is
like you know when you ask people, are you a
dog person or a cat person? Like this is the
defining quality and question to discern someone's personality in my book,
And that is why football?
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Why did football become your career? Why?
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Mainly luck? I was not an athlete growing up. I
love sports, but was not a good athlete, and sports
was my passion, watching sports, memorizing box scores, baseball cards,
basketball cards, all of those things, and I just knew
(03:02):
I wanted to find a way in I was I've
always enjoyed working for a team, being part of a team,
and competing, so just trying to find a way to
contribute to sports. I've always been math based, so trying
to just figure out, all right, how can I take
(03:23):
the things I'm good at and apply them to things
I'm passionate about? In football? Fit the mold I was.
I was lucky enough to be connected with a mentor
of mine named Mark Benain. Mark is now the president
of the Oakland Athletics, but at the time he was
with the Oakland Raiders And oh wait, no, they're not
(03:43):
the Oakland athletics right there, and I think they're just
called the athletics now. But anyways, Mark Mark was able
to help me get an internship with the Raiders and
from there just kind of went on my path. And yeah,
I just I love competing, I love winning, and I
love being part of something great.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
I think it's so cool that you.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Being someone that, like you said, had a real acumen
for math and sort of a math background, but you
found a way into football where I think sometimes when
we're kids, especially when we're growing up, we're going through
the business, you almost wouldn't conflate the two, or you
wouldn't put one and two together. But what sparked for you,
what made you feel like that could be and data
(04:28):
and building teams could be a part of no pun intended,
kind of pun intended.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Your overall equation boo. I know, I know, I know.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
I'm a fan of a good pun. They're probably been
two things for me. One was playing Madden and fancy football,
and just like understanding that math and especially when it
comes to South Cap and analytics, like those things do
(05:03):
apply to winning games. But I think the light really
turned on for me and everything kind of clicked into
place when I read Moneyball after my I want to say,
my senior year in high school reading that book, and
I just realizing that, oh wow, there is like there's
(05:25):
an entire complex of analytics and numbers and stats and
all of these things, and like people make good decisions
based off these numbers, and people also can make bad decisions.
And so just just learning that, like there's a there's
(05:46):
a way for me to really contribute. And that was
that was inspiring to me.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I love I love that because you said something. I
was listening and you know, doing my research on you,
and and I was listening to a cast you did
with with Field Yates, and you said something that I
made sure to write down. When you were coming up
in the ranks, and you you very much worked your
way up, and one of the things you said was
I just told myself to find a way to make
(06:13):
myself useful. And it sounds so simple, but what did
that What did that look like for you, especially knowing
you had this passion and sort of like an uncharted
territory at that.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Time, making myself useful was not easy, but it was
It was being very aware of what was happening, like
all all around me. So when I was at the
League office getting to know the people and the people
and what like, Okay, this person's job is to do this,
(06:45):
and this person's job is to do that, and you know,
these are the things that we have to accomplish as
as a unit, as a department, and you know, where
are there inefficiencies here? And so like one of the
kind of most let's just call it boring things for
my department, League office to do with something called deferred compensation,
(07:06):
which is which is a bad word to agents because
it requires funding. I can get into all the all
the all the details here, but essentially, teams have to
show the money that they have guaranteed to players for
the next year. They have to they have to put
that into an ESCRO account. And for the longest time,
(07:29):
trying to figure out how much money was would go
into these ESCRO accounts was like one of the worst
jobs in the department. And so it fell like onto
me as the lowest person on the totem pole there
and just showing like okay, like here's actually an easy
way to do this, here's a different way to look
(07:50):
at at how to track these things. And then it
was kind of a light went on. I think for everyone, Oh, wow,
like we can we can make this process better. Oh,
and then we can use that what we learned from
that process to make you know, tracking rookie contracts better,
and we can track you know, all of the veteran
contracts better. And so just being an outsider coming in
(08:15):
and taking let's just call it an ignorant view of things,
but it's blissful and making it work.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
I love that because, you know, when you when you
leave the league office and then you go back to
working for teams, so much of what you're also doing,
as well as trying to you know, kind of maximize
your lane and then also discover new lane scouting and
talent identification and x's and o's, you know, beyond what
you had already known, and all of those things, you're
(08:46):
also trying to explain high concept things, especially quantitative and
mathematical things to football people who respectfully don't all always
want to hear those things or or want to even
dip a toe in that water. How did you learn
(09:06):
how to be a math to football, data to football
you know, analytics to football translator and sort of build
those bridges.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
I've always been able to connect with different kinds of people.
So that's that's that's one way is making friends has
always been fairly easy to me. So just talking to people,
getting to know, getting to understand, all right, this is
what this person's interested in, this is how to reach
(09:38):
this person, this is how to connect with this person.
I've always been able to kind of figure figure that out.
Sometimes it might take me a minute, but I can.
I can, I can figure that that beans out. But
the other thing too is and you know this because
you've been around teams like you've been embedded with teams football,
people are much more curious then I think the public
(10:01):
gives them credit for. So when I was in Kansas
City to start out, and we had coming up with
me like at the at the at the bottom of
the of the organization, it was it was Ryan Poles,
it was it was Field Yates, it was Mike Borganzi,
(10:22):
Ryan Nutt, who's the one of the VPS of player
Personnel Kansas City. They were all very curious people and
they wanted to know as much as they could about
the salary cap, about analytics, and I want to as
much as I could about scouting, about how to how
to build a team, how to how to look at players,
(10:43):
how to deal with coaches, all those things. So we
were able to kind of grow together. And then another
person who I'm sure you're familiar with, who was really
helpful there was Ray Farmer. Ray would always just push
us and just sometimes even to like to the point
of annoyance of he would play the devil's advocate, even
(11:04):
when he didn't believe it. He would just say, Okay, well,
defend that position. Okay, you want to trade a six
round pick for this player, defend it. And he may
he may agree with it, but he would force us
to just to just dig a little deeper. And so
I think just so building those relationships was really helpful
to me, and and I think it served me well.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
There's such a communal I think process element to it, right,
because if you walk across the office, it's the same
conversations happening, the offensive coordinators trying to get their calls
onto the play callers call sheet for that game, and
arguing the why of things and trying to make convincing arguments, right,
(11:45):
And I think so much about football is a functional argument.
And I guess we would call it problem solving, but
I guess that that takes a skill to argue, but
I have not mastered it personally to argue, but to
do so functionally.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Yeah, well, and that's that's the beauty of working for
a team is everybody just we just want to win.
So whatever gets us to winning is where we all
want to be. And I think as long as there's
respect to someone's viewpoint, and then at the end the
decision is made and it's our decision, so long as
(12:24):
we're there, everything else is just it's just a conversation.
And you know, you never let it get personal, and
it shouldn't. Then I don't. I don't think it ever has,
at least in my experience. And it works.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Love that and Brenton, you know, Carolina is building something.
In my opinion, it teamed very near and dear to
my own heart, is really building something solid. And to me,
it's keeping an eye on some of the I guess
more chaotic moments that have happened, the late game wins,
(13:00):
late game losses, things that are can be so up
and down through the course of the season. But it
takes a collective talent and this collaboration that you and
Dan Morgan have and then the people in the building
to kind of ride those waves on the one hand,
but keep an eye on the long term too. And
(13:21):
I guess I wonder regardless of what happens over the
course of a week by week result, like how do
you pull data points from what could be valuable from
those wins and losses without getting too caught up in
the wins and losses? Like how do you take a
long term look at what's happening to the team in
(13:43):
the short term.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
It's hard, It's really hard, especially when we're in the
building phase of our life cycle. So we want to
keep on developing our players, developing our culture and building
this thing so that it's sustainable moving forward. But at
the same time, like right now we're seven and six,
(14:10):
we're right in the middle of a playoff race, So
so how do we how do we do both things
at once? And what we look for is what is
stable about us winning? And then what is let's call
it fluky or lucky, And it could be it could
(14:31):
be what's stable about us losing too, Like what is
stable and what is fluky and what's lucky? And and
how do we lean into the stability and make this
the stable things better and minimize our reliance on on luck.
And so after each game we just we just talk about,
all right, here are the things that went that went well,
(14:53):
here are the things that we could improve on, and
and if those things that went well are are stable,
then we feel pretty good about where we are. If
we think they were lucky, okay, we have something to
work on, like we we need to improve in these
other areas or else our results are going to be
luck reliant. And like an example that I have of
(15:20):
this is and sorry, I have to go back. I
have to go back a long ways because it's it's
like the the core memory, if you will, of this
is my first year in Kansas City. It was twenty ten.
We played the Cardinals and we beat him. We've beat
him pretty good. We beat him thirty one to thirteen.
(15:42):
And there was a third down play. We were up
seven three. There's a third down play Tim high Tower.
Do you remember Tim high Tower? Yeah, so Tim Tim
Tim high Tower, gets gets a swing pass, makes a
guy miss and he's running for the first down. It
was third and nine. He's running for the first down
and Eric Barry came running downhill and knocked them out
(16:02):
of bounds right right at the at the sticks, and
so Arizona punted the ball back to us. We got
a couple chunk plays, scored a touchdown, We're up fourteen
to three, and then we were often running in the game.
But if Eric doesn't make that play, what happens in
that game? Like, that game could have been way different. So, yes,
(16:25):
we won by eighteen, but had that play not happened something,
the result could have been completely different. And so we
looked for those moments here, like, what are those moments
that the game could have flipped on us? It could
have been a penalty call, it could have been look,
it could have been a last second field goal by
Ryan Fitzgerald. It could be a lot of different things.
(16:49):
But finding out where are those plays and are those
are those repeatable is really important to the process.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
I say this only slightly tongue in cheek, but it
is rather amazing that you do have so many friends
considering you have to be the guy that says, hey,
that could have been lucky.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Guys, let's not get.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Too excited for this right after a win and all
the all the emotions of the game flowing, But you
you have to look at things squarely in the face.
I mean, that's that's how good teams get good and
stay good.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Yep, yeah, And it's a I mean it's a it's
a core tenet of ours here is just being truth
tellers to each other.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Okay, we're going to take a quick break, but there's more.
With Brent Tillis on the other side here on NFL Daily,
we love to take analysis and turn it into a game.
(17:48):
It is our way, and you seem to me like
just the perfect person to kind of play this team
building game with, especially because I do think you think
about things in like you mentioned, and like we've talked
about such a I would say microscopic and telescopic space
at this at the same time. So, if you're building
(18:10):
a team brand, you're starting from scratch. There's there's no
groundwork in the organization. Let's say this hypothetical team on Mars,
right that exists, and you're building from scratch, and you
can only make three very important core decisions. We'll go
one by one. What's the first decision that you make
on Mars.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Well, you know we.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
That's going to be oxygen.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
I'm just giving it environment and atmosphere, not burning up
there's three.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
The first place that my head goes to with this
is like, is vibes. What do we want the vibes
of our organization to be? And I just think back
to my the first time I got to meet with
the Tappers in person, it was in their dining room
at their home here in Charlotte, and and I walk
(19:01):
into the house and Nicole greets me, and she's a
phenomenal host and welcoming and gracious. And then I sit
down at the dining room table, and then Dave walks
in and he starts playfully ribbing me about my socks.
I the only pair of blue socks I had had
my kids faces on him, so I wore it. He's
(19:24):
give me a hard time about the socks, and.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Right, like, of course, that yeah, right.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Right, And and Christy Coleman was there, our president, and
a couple other members of the organization, and we it
was a great conversation, and it was you're not You're
not supposed to use the word comfortable in football, right,
Nobody wants to be comfortable, But it was so I'll
just say it was secure. It was I felt like
(19:51):
I was sitting around my family's dining room table with
my parents and sister and brother and aunts and uncles
and cousins, and it was just it was banter. It
was it was disagreements, it was agreements, It was playful,
it was fun, it was curious. It was exactly like
(20:13):
it was all of those things. And so I felt
coming out of that conversation like, Okay, this is like,
this is pretty interesting. If these are the people who
own the team and they are this open and they
are this enjoyable to talk to, I cannot imagine what
the rest of the building is like. And sure enough
I walked in the first day I was here, and
(20:34):
it was it was that. And so that's not every building, right,
Some buildings are going to be different. Some buildings are
going to be are going to be like a little
more corporate, right, and then like some more you know,
some industries they want like a boiler room type atmosphere
that's like go go, go go go, like that's and
that's us at times, but not all the time. And
(20:58):
and so then I just think about along with vibes,
like all right, what are the words that we're using,
how are we communicating with each other. One of the
things that we're big on here is is trying to
not use absolutes always never, definitely, no way and being
just being more curious. And so so I think once
(21:18):
you set your like the vibes as I just called it,
I think you're in a good spot.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
I I love that you include language in that because
I think that a failure to sustain a universal language,
whether it's the language of your scouting department and or
the language like you just said, how people speak to
each other in the building. I actually my theory is
that's the number one reason why teams fail. It's it's
(21:47):
nobody understanding each other, right, and that's inclusive to the
language of talent identification and everything. And you know, you
say the word vibes, but it just it's so it's
so layered, and I guess you know, for me thinking
about that, and you have to be so anthropological when
you go into a building like that. That's the biggest
(22:09):
decision to that point you know that you're making. And
so you know, I think when people look at your
title and and your job and they see the numbers
and everything, but you're scouting, this is anthropology, this is sociology.
You're looking you're trying to feel things just as much
as you are to understand them.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Yeah, no doubt. And it's hard, but it's also fun
and it's rewarding, and if you're doing it with great
people like we've got here. We've got We've got coach Canals,
we got Dan Morgan, We've got a whole staff of
people who they are like minded in that we're just
driven to win. We just want to win, and we
(22:50):
just want to put a good product on the field
and make our fans proud.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Okay, what's your second major decision that you'd make besides oxygen?
Speaker 3 (23:00):
I thought the vibe. I thought the yeah oxygen, I
thought the vibe. Answer was so good. You wouldn't make
me do too many.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Well, you know we're sticklers here, you know, So.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
After vibes, I would I would probably go to how
do we want to lead? So? What does what does
leadership look like in our organization? And I can't speak
to everywhere else. I can only speak to my experience,
and like, where are we going to find positive tension
within our leadership? How we we have people that are
(23:31):
on different they approach the problem with different timelines. Right,
You've got to coach. Coaches are wired to win the
next day, right, and then you've got a GM, and
the GM's wired to win for the next one to
three years. And then you've got you've got a president
(23:51):
and and they're wired to operate or to want to
win for the next ten to fifteen years. And everybody wants,
you know, they want the longer timeline, but their focus
is going to be on those on those timelines. And
so how do you have the conversations of let's let's
get to where we want to go and provide tension
(24:15):
to each other. And that is am I making sense there?
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (24:18):
One.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
I love that because it goes back to what you
were talking about, arguing functionally and challenging each other and
pushing each other, but without the uh like egotistical parts
of that seeping in or or being able to to
look at difficult conversations very bluntly.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
And I think it's starting.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
I mean, and I love the process you're building these
with because it does start with number one, the vibue.
You have to make sure that the dynamic is correct
and the languages is understood in the building before you
can decide how much you can push people even when
you understand their problem solving is all coming from a
different angle.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
You're all trying to get to the same goal. So far,
so far, I got to say.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
I'm pretty impressed because I think when you give someone
three decisions, you know, to build an entire team with, they're.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Like, well, uh, okay, uh quarterback.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
But even before that, you have to have these fundamental
things in place before you can even think about roster decisions,
before you can even think about you know, what the
nuts and bolts of the actual team look like.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
Right, And and so for us here in Carolina, like
we're we're building this. Yeah, I believe we're building it
the right way. Time time will certainly tell, but we're
I think we're on the right track here. And and
the tension that we all provide to each other, and
I'm very fortunate to be to be part of the
(25:47):
tension that I can provide with with coach Canals and
with Dan and the tension that's happening in those conversations
is is what's helping to drive our building process. And
then you know, you you combine that with with Coach
(26:09):
Canals's positive energy and the fact our players are playing
hard and the results are they're they're coming and some
of them are there, and and I think the best
Panthers football is ahead.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Of us well as again near and dear to my heart,
that makes me happy to hear. I've had so much
fun watching you guys this year too. And a great
answer to that question is not going to let you
off the hook for your third major decision that that
you're making here on Mars.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
You are you already answered it because once, I think,
once you have those two things in place, once you've
got your vibes, and once you know how you want
to lead, you can then figure out, all right, who
is going who fits these these parameters and who is
going to lead us, who's going to be our head coach,
who's going to be our GM, who's going to be
(27:01):
our quarterback? Like those So while the fans are getting
excited about who it's going to be, and they're you know,
you're they're reading the lists of the candidates and who
it could be, the hardest part about that process is
looking within yourself. And that's the first two questions and
now the rest of it, it just it just answers itself.
(27:22):
And you know, I wasn't I wasn't lucky enough to
be I wasn't able to be part of the interview
process with with coach Canalis. But I mean, this is
the same process that we used when we hired a
lot of good people who who work here now who
are helping us win, like Denny Callington, our head trainer
(27:44):
and vice president of medicine, Josh Hanks, our director of performance,
and Erki Or our vice president of analytics. This is
the same process we did for that. It's at the
end of the day, it's hr and it's really not
that much different than scouting, right It's just like, Okay,
these are the things we need, Let's find somebody who
(28:06):
fits those things. Rather than being compelled by a great
interview right like right now, I'm wearing a vest right now,
like I look like I just gave a really good
PowerPoint presentation. Don't be fooled by this. It's all about
what you actually are.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Oh man, I love that, And that speaks again to
kind of your more anthropological.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Nature and the curiosity.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
It's a breath of fresh air brand honestly, because you know,
there is so much curiosity in that building and a
thinking of you know, what's around the next corner, and
how do we do it? Together and you feel it,
and I've felt it for a couple of years there now,
and it's exciting times.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
I'm very aware.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
We've taken up way too much of your time today,
but I love I love talking to you about this.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
I love talking about how people.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Build things, and I know you love to think about
how to build things. And so we're real grateful to
you for joining us on power Players. If you don't
introduce yourself one time, at least as a as an
NFL daily power Player over the course of like the
Combine or something like that, you know I'll have an
ear out for it.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
I think send a T shirt. Make get T shirts
made it, send it.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
That will get you.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Actually, we'll get you a vest you're wearing a ghast.
We'll put it right next to the little Carolina Panthers head.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
There we go.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Perfect or socks.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
I guess Dave Tepper would notice if you had it on.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
I definitely noticed the socks. May have a video from
the draft room of him making fun of my socks too.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
That's incredible brand, what a pleasure. Thank you so much
for joining us today.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
Thanks Jordan, it was great.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
That was Brent Tillis. We thank him for his time.
I honestly I could have talked with him probably all
day about how he thinks about team building. I especially
loved how he has such a mathematical and analytical background,
but he it truly is a translator and an anthropologist
in that he takes this really human and culture based
approach to team building and really resetting an organization in
(30:10):
a very, very in depth and layered way, and getting
the steps of the process right before thinking.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
So much about the results.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
I loved what he said about being really honest about
what's lucky and what's actual process. I think that that's
actually kind of a rare way to look at things
across the league, especially we get so caught up in
wins and losses. So thank you Brandt for your insight today,
thank you for your time, Thank you to our listeners
for helping to make this happen. We are going to
(30:40):
be back with more episodes of NFL Dailies Power Players
as a season and off season continue, and you can
find those and every episode of NFL Daily wherever you
get your podcasts.
Host
Gregg Rosenthal
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