December 22, 2021 • 45 mins
Host Andrea Kremer takes us back to 1984 when NFL Films Steve Sabol interviewed former NFL defensive end Deacon Jones. Deacon explains how his NFL career got started and how he took on his famous nickname. As a player, Deacon developed the head slap and described what it was like to play 'in the trenches' in the 1960's. Deacon feels like he never played the game dirty and never allowed anyone to play dirty against him. The Hall of Famer prides his health and longevity in the game to training on the beach with weights and combat boots. We also hear a no holds barred account of Deacon's relationship with famous coaches and infamous opponents.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to NFL Films Tales from the Vault. I'm Pro
Football Hall of Fame journalist Andrea Kramer. This is a
weekly podcast featuring conversations between the late President of NFL Films,
Steve Sable, and some of the greatest figures in NFL history.
We've dug into the vault to find these original interviews
and now you get to hear them. Think of the
(00:27):
show as a time copsule, taking you back to a
specific period of a player or coach's career. Now I'm
here to help guide you, provide context and insights into
some of these lost treasures, as we used to like
to call them at NFL Films. Let's head into the
vault to visit with one of the more unique characters
(00:48):
in NFL history. This is Steve Sable conversation with Deacon Jones.
(01:08):
Deacon Jones was one of the most memorable characters back
in the nineteen sixties, the man who provided the identity
for the Fearsome Foursome. I love those old days when
they were cool nicknames for defenses. Remember the Purple People
Leaders in Minnesota, the Steel Curtain in Pittsburgh, and of
course the Fearsome foursome in Los Angeles. The Rams defensive
(01:30):
line consisted of Jones, Merlin Olson, Lamar Lundy, and Rosie Greer,
and they really were feared. But Merlin Olson was was
the nice guy, you know, that big old burly guy.
And Deacon, well he was hardly the soft spoken religious
leader his name would imply. Jones retired after the nineteen
(01:50):
seventy four season, where he played one year with Washington.
Fun fact, in his final game there, head coach George
Allen let Jones kick the extra point on Washington's final
touchdown of a forty two to nothing blow out over
the Bears. This interview took place in which, just so
happens to be the first year I began working as
(02:12):
a producer at NFL films. So back then we did
everything our own research, editing, writing, scoring, music, sound mixing.
But today those jobs are specialized. So in the same way,
the television production was different back then, so too was
the NFL and the league in the nineteen sixties. Well,
(02:35):
they didn't have the protection for players like they do now.
Suffice it to say, the emphasis on players safety has
come a long way. In this interview, you'll hear Deacon
talking about the head slap, which was outlawed in nineteen
seventy seven. He laments the use of situational substitution, which
for the most part, was just starting to creep its
(02:57):
way into the game in the early eighties when this
in view was conducted. So you know how I told
you that this show is like a time capsule, Well
this one really is. The league back then was so
incredibly different. Violence permeated the game even more so than today.
Dirty play was commonplace in the trenches and often went unchecked.
(03:18):
I mean, we even have shots of coaches smoking on
the sidelines during a game from the nineteen sixties. Hello
Norm Van Brooklyn. But I want to point something out
to you, sort of from a technical standpoint. The interview
you're about to hear isn't like the ones we featured
before on this podcast. No, Steve isn't sitting in a
church somewhere with Deacon, even though with his name you
(03:39):
kind of would expect him to. In fact, the two
are actually in a studio. Steve is not on camera,
nor is he on Mike. But this conversation that took
place with one of the most colorful characters in NFL
history was just too good not to share with you all.
So let's go to the vault here, Steve Sable and
(04:00):
Deacon Jones. I think when you started your career as
a true that in the beginning you were so great
you couldn't even get the stance right. I didn't even
you couldn't that your stance was horseship, That you couldn't
eed that your stance was better. Is that true? You know? I? Uh,
I was probably one of the greenest football players that
ever came into the NFL I had. I had a
particularly tough time when I came up because I did
(04:20):
not have the background or the fundamental background that I needed.
So I had to really be aggressive and I had
to really be in top physical conditions. So I I
came into camp at a lean mean two hundred and
fifty five pounds and I could outrun daylight. And uh
I made a lot of mistakes, but because I was
quick and fast, I was able to make up for it.
I remember one one instance in training camp, John and
(04:42):
Nette was carrying the ball off tackle. Tom Wilson laid
a good block. It was a regular sweep play power
sweep off the left side, and Tom Wilson laid a
great block on me and I was downing up and
head on that before he made one step past me.
And that was the type of thing that probably made
me make the team. It was was was Don Paul,
who's my defensive coast and saw even me that I
(05:03):
could I had to potential to be a great football player.
What about where don't you go to colleges? I know
you want to said there was another place a rude
Couldny Franciy got their name of the place to places. Well,
you know, Steve, basically I spent most of my time
at Saying Quentin University, but no, I went to South
Carolina State UM and UH school called Mississippi vocationally, and
it had been a Mississippi. I did just say that
(05:25):
too long. You know that that was just a little
too small for the deacon. I don't usually jump in
here this early in the interview, but the story behind
Deacon jones college career is really pretty amazing. Davy Jones. Yeah,
and yeah, that's what he was known as back then.
And keep that in mind when we go back to
the interview. Well, Davy Jones started his college career at
(05:46):
South Carolina State, but after participating in a civil rights
protest on campus. The school provoked his and many of
his teammates scholarships. But things got worse when one of
the assistant coaches from South Carolina State got the head
coaching job at Mississippi Vocational, which eventually became Mississippi Valley State.
He brought Jones and is expelled teammates to play there.
(06:09):
To say they weren't exactly welcomed, well, that would be
an understatement. It's one thing to get kicked out of school,
but Jones and his teammates from South Carolina State were
literally run out of town following the football season, driven
to the state line by Mississippi police, fearing for their lives.
That was it for Deacon Jones college career. Talk about
(06:31):
a different time. This is just an example of the
types of things that players of that era had to
endure and overcome. The most amazing part of the story,
perhaps Jones found out a few months later he was
drafted in the fourteenth round by the Rams. Another difference
between then and now. In ninette, the draft had twenty rounds.
(06:53):
Remember today there's only seven. As we head back to
the interview, I told you to remember Davy Jones. Right,
how do you get the nickname? But you know deacon
Deacon was a public relations stunt. Uh. I needed a
nickname when I came into the game. And my real
name is David Jones. And you look at the l
A phone book. You see twenty thirty David Jones is
in there. And I needed something to set me apart
(07:15):
from the rest of the path other than the fact
that I was the best football player. Deacon goes well
with Jones and you know the rest. When you were
talking about speed, how fast worry? I mean, because there's
some way we can relate that to hiss or you
were the fastest of the team, the fastest lineman, and
what how were how fast? I was safe? Let's say
at this point in time, I was the fastest in
the history of the game. Um, from a from a
(07:37):
dead stand still. I was a spending college and I
used to practice a great deal against my brother, who
was extremely fast. So I mean I was clocked a
little about my fourth point five seconds in the forty
at at at about two hundred and fifty five to sixty. So,
but my ladder of movements, along with my initial speed
was just fantastic. What about the the story about you
(07:58):
and Bobby Mentchell or we'll tell Well, you know, Bobby
was a fine outside receiver and and during that period
of time, you know, I just you know, my my,
My approach to the game was a just run, run, run, run, run,
when the whistle, when the whistle blow, I'd run from
whistle the gun. And there was a short out pattern
thrown the Bobby about a five yard out and the
(08:20):
cornerback came up, took a shot at the interception and missed,
and Bobby broke in the open field. And at that time, I,
you know, on a on a quick five yard outpattern,
all you can do is get your hands up trying
to knocked the ball down and turn and pursuit. So
when I turned to pursue Bobby broke in the open
it was me and him. He had about a five
six yard he had start on me, and I ran
alongside of him, I guess for about fift twenty yards
(08:42):
before I unleashed a devastating attack on his head. But
I just had to find out myself if I could
outrun and outside of receiver, and at that point in time,
I would have probably beat him about five six yards
in the forty How did you Now, I want to
talk about the which there one particular aspect of your game,
but you took particular pride in I mean everything us
(09:03):
we did, thought Lilly, Willie, Davis, yourself and Merlin, is
there somebody is there some aspects of the game you
look back and said, goddamn it, I was the best
at that one. There one move that you liked or
one thing took particular pride in. Well, without a doubt,
my top priority, and I would I would think that
I put more time into into perfecting a pass rush
(09:23):
and probably anything else, although I worked on the on
the on the complete phase of the game across the board,
but pass rush was was one thing that set me
apart from the pack. And I think to the day,
I think to the day my approach had passed or
still set me apart from the rest of the pack.
My consistency and pass rushing. By that I mean by that,
I mean no matter how many men you sent at me,
(09:45):
I still found a way to put pressure on the
on the quarterback. Now you don't always tackle the quarterback,
but but to put consistent pressure on him every down
is the is the key to the whole situation. Now,
I developed the thing they called the head slap and um,
and I also developed a term that is used in
the game right now called sacking the quarterback, which to me,
(10:06):
I got paid extra money for packing the quarterback. So
I put an extra hours on the practice field learning
moves that would help me in the game. Okay, both
most of your alignment to this day work on on
their first initial move when they come off the ball.
If alignment take that away from him, he's sitting there
or he's standing there in in one general area and
(10:28):
he's not doing anything. He's sort of like a no
man's land. But my whole approach was to develop an
alternative a move from the move. In other words, when
you stopped this one, I got something that put right
in on top of you. You spend you, you you you,
you play off the block, You do anything that you
can to put consistent pressure on the quarterback. And then
and then developing the head slap. The head slap was
(10:49):
to do two purposes. One was to give myself an
initial head start on the pass rush, in other words,
an extra step, because anytime you go upside a man's head,
they have a tendency to linked the eyes and close
the eyes, and that was all I needed, Gail said.
Has had a statement out that all he needed was
sixteen inches. Well, all I needed was a blink of
the old eyes, and I was by you. And that's
(11:10):
what the hair flat was. And then also when you
ran into a player like Conrad Dobler, you know, going
upside that head stopped the biting and the chewing and
all that other stuff, you know, So I kept the
holding controlled and it also gave me an extra step
on the past lesson. No doubt, pass rushers in the
nineteen sixties had some different moves in their toolbox, if
(11:31):
you will, one being the head slap, which at that
point in the game was legal or more accurately not illegal,
and the biting and chewing Deacon was talking about from
Conrad Dobler. Let's just say, battles along the line of
scrimmage were a little more no holds barred than they
are today. And Dobbler, the All Pro tackle with the St.
Louis Cardinals and Bills, was notorious for his less than
(11:53):
clean play. So how would Deacon take on a player
like Dobler, who, by the way, was featured on the
cover of Sport. It's illustrated as the NFL's dirtiest player. Well,
Steve got jones to play a little show and tell me,
could you demonstrate just don't have to stand if you
don't use it open Well, sometimes, Steve, I use an
open hand most of the time. But you know, when
I wanted to punish a guy for holding me or
(12:16):
doing some kind of illegal block, then I close a
fist and go upside the head. But anyway, it's a
blow right upside the head. Okay, that's the first initial blow.
And then you have to tie that in with getting
off the football real fast. You have to, you know,
if you notice my carea. I used to get called
offside a lot. But see, getting off the football is
where it all starts, and you got to anticipate the
(12:37):
count most of the time. So when I came off
the football with this enormous speed and upside the head
outside or inside or boat, you know, the man closes
his eyes or if you hit him from the outside,
his body shifts one way because he goes with the blow,
and that's all you need. And then that this arm
comes up under and rips him up. And then you
slide underneath and around to the quarterback and then you
(13:00):
you can set that move up once you get him
leaning outside. Then you come back inside with the same
move to the inside of the hill hell man, and
you get his head turned this way and then boom,
you're around it if you've got good speed. A gentleman
like Mark Gassing though could could really could really utilize
that move. He had more use of his hands. If
you notice he has two. He has two problems as
(13:21):
for his defensive end. His concern although he's a great
football player and potentially he can be as great as
he wants to be, but he needs work on playing
the inside and run. And also he needs alternative moves
from his normal pass rushing game because the boys are
doubling and tripling you now and you've got to have
a way to go. But I'd like to work with
him about one week or two weeks, and I guarantee
you he would be the most devastating and another than myself.
(13:44):
How about the statement you made, want someone to talk
about it about if you ever knocked the quarterback out
of the game, which you feel any resorse about that,
or was that that part of the game or what
while I played the game tough and hard knows and
every man I played against went down looking at me,
and I I compride myself and one thing, Steve, I
never in my life hit a man illegally, um, and
(14:07):
I never would accept anyone hit me illegally. Now, when
that happens, then you must serve justice, um. And if
you don't know how to serve justice, and you're gonna
get kicked around the league. I didn't have too many
times when when someone did something illegal because I played
it clean. And usually when you play it clean, the
guys reciprocate. I had an incident having to me in
(14:28):
San Francisco when Dick Nolan was head coach of the
forty nine. He put in a he put in a
play where John David cow who was in the tight end,
would flank out to the sideline and then he'd come
in motion back towards the line of scrimmage. And just
as the ball is snap, when I'm coming out looking
in like this, John David Coo came in right here
well outside the end. Is during that period of time
(14:51):
that's the illegal clips on and and not only that,
you could lose both of your knees and and probably
your life if you're not careful. So I told John Brodie,
who was a quarterback, then if he ran that again,
that'd be his last place, so John, but if he
was to running again, then I went in the locker
room the Foday night of the locker room, and I
approached Mr Nolan and I told him I expressed my
(15:11):
dissatisfaction about that type of play because there's no room
in the game for illegal illegal or blocks or illegal situations.
If you want to take a man out, it's very
easy to do looking at him square in the eye.
And that was my whole approach in the game. I
wanted to put as much fear into his heart and
as much pain on his back as I possibly could.
(15:32):
How did you coin the phrase sactic? Where did you
get the idea for that? Well, you know, sacking the cornerback.
It's just like like you like you devastate the city.
I mean, it's just like like you put all off
offensive players in one bag and I just take a
baseball bat and beat on the bag. Okay, we just
found the term. I mean, it was just it was
just it probably probably came from some word who was
(15:53):
using in the locker room, you know. And then at
that time I was getting a lot of media coverage
and I probably said that the summer right, and and
then you know how that type of thing compounds itself.
Dick Buckas was said earlier when he made a tackle,
he felt he was sending a message to the people
that he was tackling. And I said that, I mean,
he was unique that he tacklics always have him wrestling
(16:14):
guys around everything. How did you look on just the
tackle itself, I mean, was it just to get the
guy down or you want to label of a little bit,
or was it you know, Bucket Buckas is my idol,
whether you know it or not, His his farm, his
type of play was as devastating. I've always admired him,
and the times that I wanted I played in the
Pro Bowl with him. I always wish that we could
(16:35):
go a season together and see just how many people
we could really beat up. Um. My approach was basically
the same as his. George Allen taught me that when
you're tackling a man, every time you hear him, you
gotta make him pay. You gotta make him know that
when he comes in your territory. He's gonna get the
best you've got. I never thought about hurting the guy.
I always thought that if if I hit him and
(16:55):
break his in that and then I'll be the first
to send him flowers. Um My, My whole point was
was pretty much like Buckers. I wanted to hit. When
I hit and and put my back into it, you know, boom.
I mean, that's gonna provide that shot that's gonna probably
knock the ball loose, or let that put the intimidating
fear of God into that that that running back, let
(17:17):
him know and make him go back to that huddle
and tell his quarterback, damn it, I'm not running in
the Deacon Jones area anymore. So each time he came
over there, I tried to tear his damn head off
without with no remorse in my heart. I try to
put him in the hospital every time I tackle it.
What about the psyching out which what did you have
(17:39):
any conversation? I mean Buckers had a whole thing or
he ever he'd swear guys trying to break their concentration
where you're where you're psyche. I'll take place before the
game my side and I went the whole week and
right through Sunday, I talked about his mother. I'd call
him nasty names. I do anything I good to make
him either jump outside, make a quick move, a bad move,
(17:59):
and I'd get the upper hand on him. I always felt,
I always felt that the game is psychological, and I
did put try to intimidate my opponent during the course
of the week because I always knew that I was
in top shape, and no matter what I said to
him and how mad he got, he still had to
come out on that field and play me. Be could
nobody help him. He had to play me. So if
(18:20):
I wanted, if I chose to talk about him, if
I chose to say nasty things about him, I did that,
And it had nothing to do with anything else. It
was just trying to get the upper hand and get
the edge. And it does give you the edge because
with all the with all the information one has to
remember in the game, George Allen had almost fifteen hundred
plays and Audible's glory, so you know, and he could
(18:41):
pour one out the hat on you any time. So
you had to be if you can get a guy
to to miss the count or forget about his assignment,
well you got an edge. And if and if talking
about his mother or his wife or his kids to
do that, then that's the way it is. And if
you didn't like it, then the man is gonna snap
the ball. Next player, you can do something. The great
thing about Deacon is that his play really backed up
(19:04):
all his talk. But you have to know this, Deacon
is saying all these things with a smile on his face.
And even though he's been retired for a decade at
this point, his on field persona was always present. He
really makes you feel like he's still line it up.
Every Sunday when we come back, Stephen Deacon get into
some of the finer points of competition. As if we
(19:27):
haven't already heard some of his finer points. Stay tuned,
Welcome back to Tails from the Vault. Consider the intimidation
factor for an opponent knowing he was going up against
a man nicknamed the Secretary of Defense. I've always found
that players who get notoriety for their physical play often
(19:47):
get overlooked for their preparation. Jones studied the game, and
when he discovered a tell a tip off of an opponent,
his game was even more dominant. How about the tipoffs
anybody who played seat that you remember there were tipoffs
that you had Johnny United, the great Johnny United, the
guy I think probably was the greatest quarterback of all time.
(20:09):
I mean, of course, you know a lot of people
well say that other people were, but I mind, my
choice would be Johnny uniteds where John had two things
that he would do all the time. The first that
time that he got the caller play inside the twenty
yard line, it was always a draw. Play Number two,
John would always go on the counter to ninety five
(20:30):
percent at the time the count of two. And then
on his quick counts. It's the way he would walk
up to the line, you know. Normally he'd he walked
up to the line and he'd stand behind the quarterback,
I mean behind the center, you know, and and call
his olive the okay. When it's a quick count, he
walked straight from the hell up to the seller boom okay.
(20:51):
But you could you could bet your bottom dollar on
the fact that nine of his counts would be on two.
And that gave That's why we had some great pass
ruction days on Mr. United's because we we'd go into
our rolling start, so to speak, we'd anticipate we knew
we'd gonna be offside four or five times, but it
was worth it because it gave us a rolling start
on the on the pass raction. What about anybody ever
(21:14):
tried to psyche you? Anybody you could think of to
problem in problem in my early days? Um that that
that that tried to happen. I tell you when you
since you're talking about psyche jobs. I remember Donna or
not Donna Hue, but McDonald, John McDonald, who was a referee.
He died and John did a book and in that
(21:35):
book he told this story that happened between Jeane Upshaw
and I down in San Diego. It was I was
captain of San Diego defensive unit and Jean was the
offensive captain for the Raiders and we met it we
met for the coin toss before the game, and I
was really opt up at that point because the Raiders
(21:56):
in charges has a has a pretty tough rivalry match there.
So we were all ready, you know, and I came
out to try to get my open hand on Upshall.
And when when McDonald called us all together, you know,
and uh he tossed the coin. He asked Jean, he said, Jean,
what do you what do you wanna do you want
to kick a receive? And Jeane said, you said, I'll
(22:18):
kick in received. Well, you know you can't have both.
But I said, hold, uh, Donna, you I said, let
him have both. I'm gonna kick his ass anyway. I said,
give him both, you know. So we went at it
with the verbal exchange right there at midfield and McDonald
just fell out laughing. I mean, you know, Jane and
I was serious as a heart attack, but McDonald thought
was really kidding, you know, But we wasn't. But that
(22:38):
was a really funny scene. But you try to get
your slacks in, and I think everybody in the game
does that in every sport. Your reputation, it's a very
distinctive reputation. Starlock had one focus has one part star
and yourself. Did you ever feel I was a burden
that that that reputation, that you're almost like a gunfighter,
that coming out every Sunday, that you have every young
kids trying to knock you off? Do you ever feel
(22:59):
something eyes of him? Maybe I shouldn't have said that,
or or maybe I should have kept quiet, or was
that a reputation that made you we've played better? No?
I I never felt sorry for about anything I said.
You see you, I guess you each each personality. Um,
I think his whole, his whole approach to the game
is predicated on his upblainging, what type of lifestyle he
had probably going in the football. See football is a
(23:21):
gruesome game. It's We're the modern day Roman Gladiators. I mean,
the only difference between us and the Roman Gladiators is
we got referees and we don't fight to the death.
But but that's exactly what we are now. My background,
I came from a rough neighborhood. Okay, I led games.
I had to, I as soon leadership in the early days,
you know. And and if we were gonna go out
(23:41):
and beat up somebody, we went out and beat up somebody,
and I led that attack. So I had no problem
with football. And when I what I said is what
I believed at the time, and I never felt sorry
for anything I said. I was misquoted in some cases,
but I mean we all we have that. We have
that and you have to accept that. But I think
that I said what I believed and I tried to
(24:02):
execute everything that I said. If I if I was gonna,
if I was gonna get a quarterback, or if I
was gonna get somebody, I got them. And I worked
that week to prepare myself to do that. And I
like to think that with that approach to the game, attack, attack, attack,
I walked out totally unmocked. And I think that that
recommend itself. Fourteen years in opposing, four in college and
(24:25):
three in high school is second to none. I have
no scratches, no mobs, and nothing but a bleeding heart.
All right, here's an interesting quote I want you to
react to as a psychologist that wrote something about defensive players,
and he said, when you're discussing a successful defensive football player,
you're not necessarily drawing the profile of an entirely healthy person.
(24:45):
Why would why would this psychologist say something about that
about your profession like that, Well, he's probably an offensive player. Um,
I don't know. I think that. I think that probably
back in the sixties, we had one of these guys
that came in the camp can he did ah, he
did a personality analysis by position and when he got
(25:07):
to when he got to the defensive line. We were
always a type that drove fast cars and we would
allowed us in bars. We drank the most. We were
probably the most expensive clothes. Everything we did was on
the up key. Well, when you when you break that
down and you look at the offensive lineman, and he's
the guy that drives the station wagon and he has
(25:27):
five six kids. He's the he's the family guy. He
goes home every night. He's not gonna he's not gonna
get on television and say I'm gonna knock the hell
out of this guy. He's not gonna do that. This
personality don't match up that way. Well, I like to
think that because our game is attack, a bestive attack,
and you gotta kill a mosquito with an axe, I
would think that our personalities uh puts that type of
(25:51):
thing out and lets the people know that we are
an animal, so to speak. Because down in the pit,
you gotta be that you're attacking. You're not absorbing. Offensive
players absorbed they take those when you give blows. Your
personality is gonna be like that, and you you're gonna
be involved in fast things and your lifestyle is gonna
be of the fast nature. How would if you were
playing today and they were doing the situation substitution, how
(26:12):
would you react to that? How to retire? I'm i
come to play sixty minutes of football and I could not.
You see, you got to study the man, you got
the feel of man. You got to get in the
floor path through us. You got to get in the
floor of the game. I don't see how no one
can get into the floor game coming in and out. Um.
I tried. I tried that my last year with George
John playing on them on that type of situation, and
(26:35):
and it's just I never got warmed up, never got
into the floor of the game, never could use any
of the stuff that I studied all week on the man,
because sometimes you got to wait on that tip to
to to avail um and sometimes it may not come
to the third quarter, the fourth quarter, and you just
got there. You don't. You don't know that until you're
feeling you know, and you get into the floor of
playing football, and you can't do it running in and out.
(26:57):
I think my personal opinion about such situation, substitution stuff,
that I would not have been the type of player
you know, to to to deal with that type of thing.
For December reason that I had to get into the
floor of the game. I had to. I had to
feel my man out. I did a lot of study
on the game. Um, when you play for George Allen,
(27:18):
you learn how to study the game of football, and
you do it on your own time, and you know
how to find weaknesses. Well to utilize those weaknesses, you
gotta be on the field of play. And also, and also,
I think that the reason that we are into a
heavy situation substitution situation, it gets the coach involved in
the game. The coach now has gone to the media attention.
You know, they can get jobs. See John Madden was
(27:39):
John Madden did such a fantastic job for CBS, and
and Dick Vamill is doing a good job for NBC.
I think now the coaches the same way. We better
get involved in this game so we can get in
TV two. Well, let me tell you, I also believe
that you got to put Levin out there on offense
and Leven on defense, and let's go at it. And
the only time we make changes is when you've got
(28:00):
an injury. But I think that that that makes for
a good football game. You get into the flow of it,
and I don't think that you can get into the
flow of it coming in and out. It's so interesting
to hear this, considering that coaches today count on a
defensive line rotation to keep their players fresh. Imagine what
Deacon Jones would have to say about that. But he
played in an era when situational substitution wasn't a thing.
(28:22):
Back then, you had to play sixty minutes and players
didn't even have access to the types of elite training
facilities and cutting edge programs that they do today. Sure
they could lift weights, but oftentimes it was up to
the players to get themselves ready for the football season. Now, look,
I've spent a lot of time learning about and observing
players training techniques, and yes, I've actually run the famous
(28:45):
Hills with Jerry Rice. But here Steve Unearthed's one of
the more unique training regiments I've ever heard about. Now,
without giving anything away, imagine what it must be like
seeing Deacon Jones doing this when you're out for a
day at the beach. Pretty secret, drop, Dick, that you
used the reason for the reason I don't have no
(29:06):
I don't have no no cuts on my knees. That's
the secret I'll tell you right now in America where
I don't have no cuts on my knees and I
just spend on time in the local hospitals. What was was,
oh you're ready. Yeah, oh, I prided I was on camera.
But now I trained from the from my rookie year
of that straight through my career on the beach with
(29:28):
combat boots on five pound weights on each ankle, and
I did all my exercises, all my running and hard
spreading and in the deep sand at the beach. Okay,
I did that all during the off season, and my pride,
my prior training and going to training camp. Now what
that does for you when you running there by six
months and that deep sand. Never never on a track
(29:48):
or never on a football field. Okay, keep them weights
on my ankles well, and in most knee operations, I
must knee injuries rather that it's because you're number one fatigue.
It's it in and on impact. When the legs planted,
you get that, you're gonna get a cottage there. But
if the knees always doing this, no matter what the
(30:11):
case is, if they're always doing this and you hit it,
you get that gain all the pressures off the cottages
and the legal mats. Well, to do that for sixty
minutes of football, you gotta go through that type of training.
In other words, when I came out there and helped
to improve my speed, improve my leg drive, and improved
my overall approach to the game. And I like to
think that that was of the reason I did not
(30:34):
get any leg injuries or any other in other superb condition,
and my legs were allowed to do this at all
times and never never had to worry about fatigue. Deacon
wasn't kidding about coming out of the game unscathed. He
missed a grand total of five games in fourteen seasons.
And it's even more remarkable considering that player protections, especially
(30:54):
for defensive players in the trenches, were not a priority
when Jones played. When we come back, Steve has Deacon
scalped some of his biggest rivals and puts them on
the spot about his favorite teammates and coaches. Welcome back
to Tales from the Vault. You know those NFL Top
one shows where players talk about other players and tell
(31:18):
stories about what made them so great or easier hard
to play against. Well, it's interviews like this that supply
all that great material. Steve often like to end his
interviews asking his subjects about their teammates and opponents. Now,
a lot of times guys would just say positive things,
not wanting to dis one of their peers. But this
is Deacon Jones we're talking with here. He was not
(31:40):
shy about talking about some of the game's greats. Hey
did mince words about anyone. So I'll give you a
brief background about some of the names you're about to hear.
Merlin Olsen was Jones's teammate with the Rams and one
of the members of the fame Fearsome Foursome. Fran Tarkantin
and Bart Star just a couple of Hall of Fame quarterbacks.
George Allen was Deacons coach in Los Angeles and Washington.
(32:04):
Did buckus Well, if you don't know who he is,
you shouldn't be listening to this podcast anyway. But he
was the legendary linebacker for the Bears. The last two players, Deacon,
we'll be talking about our Gayl Sayers and Jim Brown,
two of the greatest running backs of all time. Here's
a couple of guys want you to talk about if
you played with him against Merlin Olson Blanson. To me,
(32:27):
it was probably the greatest defensive tackle to play the game.
Probably I'd get a lot of flag from Dallas because
Bob Lily ain't no push over. But I I say,
because he was my teammate, and and and if I
had to pick the player, the first player I wanted
to start out with, it would be Meron. Marlan had
a lot of attributes, and I'm very proud of one
(32:48):
thing about him. You never could roll him. You never
could make him mad. Even Conrad Dobla couldn't make him mad.
Merlin was a nice guy, strong physically strong. He'd always
try to beat his man the way to book said.
You know a couple of times I said, Morlly, he
had this turkey. You know, a guy beholding him or
biking him or doing something crazy tactic, and Merland won't
retaliate that way. He'll try to humiliate the guy through
(33:10):
beating him to the quarterback or making the tackle or
doing something in his area that caused more attention. He
never did concentrate on that phase of the game, and
I respect him for that, and also his ability to
know what the hell he was doing there. It was
just like a right arm. I mean, it was just
like just like a fifty year old wife. You know.
When he wasn't in there, I mean, you knew the difference.
(33:32):
You knew the difference because there was so many things
that that allowed me to rush the passer. I could
give up the Merlin because he could take it that
whole area over there on the run on the run side.
And if we wanted to gamble to free me on
the past Russ situation, or run a stunt, or run
a stunt in a crazy situation. See me and Molan,
we run stunts inside the ten yard line. Were not
very many defensive combinations or do that, But then again,
(33:55):
we're the only defensive combination in the Hall of Fame too.
Was it like playing? I guess I'm gonna start with
the friend target targeting was a pain in the ass
he he um. You know. He slammed with so much
and and plan was very very fast, you know, a
lot faster that people gave him credit for his ability
to make quick cuts, stop on a dime, change directions.
(34:18):
I almost threw my shoulder three more times when I
thought I had him and I went to a kill
and I missed, you know. And when you're out here
with that pharm man, you know, and if you don't
connect with something all this and he'll go And I
almost did that a couple of times, so I had
to let that go and I just tried. He's probably
the only football player I went into just trying to
get him down and the hell with him to knock
(34:39):
him out. Did you remember quarterback that was particularly sassy
or to you or something that that you sack and
that he he he, pisket, piste off or challenger or
most of them just saying well, nice job, Mr Jones
or everything. Do you remember anything, Well, you know, you know,
for the most part, you never got you never got
any sassiness from a quarterback because he in such a
(35:00):
vulnerable position. But you did have certain guys that would
say certain things that normally it would be the wrong
thing at the wrong time. I think of Atlanta Falcons
had a quarterback by the name of Bob Barry. We
were playing the Falcons in the early days, and um um,
you said, I've never lost the game to the Falcons
(35:21):
during my period of time in the NFL, And I
at that time had dislocated my thumb and I wore
a half cast on my thumb. Well, I wore that
cast about two and a half years because it made
a hellever weapon when I passed through us with it.
You know, of course I would rapid with a thin
layer of form, you know. But Mr Barry said a
(35:42):
comment to me. Um in Atlanta and Lindon, Eric Lindon
was playing taco and at the time he was a pigeon.
So I blew by him on the next play, and
just as I got to Berry, I dropped that cast
out just like that and kept going and I called
him run up under it with it, And as hell
Man flew off down the fieldman was down with me
(36:03):
because I kept going. I hit him and kept going,
and he stood there for a minute. I said, no,
he cannot take my best stuff, and then boom, he crumbled.
You know, he was out like a light. How about
the park star and he was just the opposite me.
Was there something that you ever felt guilty about really
hitting him hard? Or he was such a nice guy.
It was always apologizing, you know. I mean, you know
(36:23):
you hit him, he apologized you. But it was such
a nice guy. But it sent me a telegram when
I got inducted into the Hall of Fame. I mean, um,
he was he was like he was a guy that
you respect and you played hard against cause he played
hard against you. But you know, you you you didn't.
I don't know what it was. I thought I was
really going after his head. But when I look at
(36:43):
the film, I let him go a lot of times
because he was a nice guy. You're not as was
the same kind of guy. Why don't you just say
cock sucker, you don't belong here. Don't say nice things?
You know? Was there any player in your courage that
you really enjoyed playing against a long time of you. Yes,
I enjoyed playing against Money Stiles. He's not Money Clock.
I'm sorry, Money Clock. He's not the head coach of
(37:04):
the Detroit lines. My name was offensive right tackle. And
I have to say during the time that they had
we had the second place game down in Miami. We
called it the Loser's Bowl. Uh, the second place teams
played the play the playoff game now and we beat
Dallas thirty five thirty one nothing now, and then we'd
be Cleveland thirty one to three. And each time I
was the most valuable player. And every time I played
(37:25):
against Money, I had them. I had one of them.
Super games were down there, down there, after a good
week of flings and good times. You know, I think
I had twenty two. I had two unassisted tackles on
Money and about six about six sacks on the quarterback
of block punting, the block block epstra point and a
block field goal, and uh, I wanted the most valuable
(37:47):
Players Bowl years and I would have to say that
that that I I think I had the intimidating factor
in on Money and I think I had his number
because I never had a bad game against it all
talk George Allen, he was an interesting personality as a coach.
I mean, he seems to have that boyish enthusiasm and
yet he was sort of the devious kind of a guy.
I remember a lot of stories about him, talk with
(38:10):
Fred Dryer about how he liked his chopped stackers, chocolate
chip cookies at night, and a lot of really weird
do you remember thinks about Alan that struck you? Kind
of stranger things that he would do that were kind
of a little But George and I were very very close.
Um as far as um as far as I'm exploits
in the game's concerned weak. He's the type of man
(38:30):
that is very very dedicated. He's the type of man
that that puts on a lot of ours. I think
some of them unnecessary, but that's the way he sees it.
He puts in a lot of hours. There's nothing, no
phase of the game that he don't cover during the
week prior to playing a team. He forces you to
study the game and he forced you to learn it.
He gives you a lot of material to work with.
He gives you that individual coaching and teaching on the
(38:52):
field and also in the in the classroom that you
need to become a good football player. And when you
go into a game, you know that there is not
one phase of the fight you because you have been
prepared and you've studied everything that could possibly happen to
you that Sunday. And if there isn't adjustment that has
to be made, you can you can make it on
the sideline because you give you that much material and
(39:13):
you know it so well well. We have long practices,
and that's what a lot of the young Lambs didn't like.
There's there's two album for the environment practices. They don't
like that, and then the harder running. But then we
were never out conditioned by nobody. See, we were in
the fourth quarter. We won probably six games in the
fourth quarter because we were in better pair, better prepared
and in better conditions. Well, a lot of guys didn't
(39:34):
like george methods. Okay, I like them because they were
successful for me. Um. I needed his type of domination
and his type of leadership, his type of individual coaching techniques.
I needed that personally. So I I nominated him to
be my present in the Hall of Fame for the
simple reason that had it not been for that special attention,
(39:56):
I would not have been the football player that I was.
And then he took my game and he did not
try to change my game. He created and cultivated and
directed the defense around my skills because he knew they
were unusual and they were dominating. We invented the five
man line under George. You know, I was getting double
team and triple team outside and it was it was
(40:19):
hinting in my past for us. So we created a
five man line, took out a middle linebacker, put me
over the center to create the one on one situation.
So we did a lot of things and a lot
of innovative moves in order to free me up and
put me into the floor of the defense, which I
think was a lot of responsibility he gave me and
I adhered to it, and I answered the Bell because
he would work the hell out of you. And that's
(40:41):
the only way you can be a great football player.
You got to you got to work and work and work.
Take fuckers. Well, the only thing I can say about
the great Dick Buckers, I'll say it in the in
the in the point, voses are red and violens are blue.
If you got any sense, you'll keep buckets away from you.
I think he hated everybody that was in another uniform,
(41:04):
and he played just like that. I remember we were
doing some commercials, some light beer commercials, and uh mr,
Butkers was sitting on the set, you know, it was
in between shots and he was sitting there. And this
was in the early days when he first started doing
the commercials, and he was sitting there just like he
was getting ready for a game. You know, he was,
you know, he sitting with his head down and just
good in his teeth. Man, I said, Dick, I said,
(41:24):
don't put a light beer bottle in your mouth, man,
because you saw at all, you know, and here's a
man sitting there with nine knee operations and he couldn't
play if if they offered him a million a minute.
But he was just that intense. He was an intense
football player. He was an animal, and he was a
well conditioned animal. And every time he hits you, he
tried to put you in the cemetery, not the hospital.
(41:46):
Last question, Gail Sayers, what was the play? It was terrible.
I mean, I never wished any man any bad luck
in my life, and I know Gail real well, but
for a man to make a Hall of Fame in
three years, you know, he got to be an animal.
He's got to be the toughest running back I think
I ever played the game other than Jim Brown. With
Jim Brown was a different kind of runner. Gayl Says
could beat you straight ahead. He could beat your left right,
(42:09):
and with dazzling speed. I mean with speed that he
could hit a whole cooking of anybody I've ever seen.
I'm him. In one probo game, Johnny United on the
State died play handoff we had we must have run
that played for the time because Sears will be five
yards now and when the United made his turn to
hand it over to him, you know, running leave the ball. Well,
he was. He so quick, he was so fast, and
(42:31):
I was a little bit elated than happy when he
couldn't and he couldn't make my life misserable no more.
And I never would have wished anything bad on anybody.
But but man, when you see him as much as
we did, we had him twice a year when we
were playing the same division, and he was just you
just couldn't stop him. And we had a big, fast line.
And thank god he did not have a good offensive
line his career, because if he did, he would have
(42:52):
been doubly hard. You mentioned Jimmy Brown, what about him, Well,
Jimmy is, I guess, the supreme runner. He's a supreme guy. Jimmy.
Jimmy did all his and nine years and he walked
out on Mark And he's got to be the only
running back in the history of the game to walk
out on marb And I don't think that anyone can
(43:13):
be put in his category. Although people are gonna break
his record, you gotta remember they were doing it in
the sixteen games and fourteen games and he did all
this and nine and he walked out the game and
we were happy to see him go to But he
walked out when he could have played another five ten years.
And Brown had to be, without a doubt, pound for
pounds is like Will Chamond is a basketball the best,
(43:35):
all right, that's it. If Steven asked Deacon Jones if
he was the best pass rusher of all time, I
have no doubt that Jones, who actually died, would have
said absolutely. But for all his pass rushing prowess, Remember,
he was also renowned for coining the word sack, pretty
ironic considering he never officially had one since the term
(43:58):
didn't exist well he was playing. Sacks weren't kept as
a stat until two eight years after Deacon retired, but unofficially,
thanks to our friends at Pro Football Reference, Deacon Jones
has the third most sacks of all time, a hundred
and seventy three point five, behind only Bruce Smith and
(44:19):
the Great Reggie White. But consider this, from nineteen sixty
four to nineteen sixty nine, Jones had a hundred and
fifteen sacks, So in eighty four games he averaged one
point three five sacks per game. Only two players every
even averaged one sack per game over six seasons, Mark
Gastineau and Reggie White. Ah. The late Great Reggie White
(44:42):
full disclosure, one of my most favorite players ever. Next
week we have Steve's interview with the Minister of Defense,
conducted the summer after Reggie won his first Super Bowl.
It's really special to me, and I hope it will
be for you as well. You don't want to miss it.
Thanks for listening, and I sure hope you'll join us
next week. I'm Andrea Kramer.
Welcome to NFL Films Tales from the Vault. I'm Pro
Football Hall of Fame journalist Andrea Kramer. This is a
weekly podcast featuring conversations between the late President of NFL Films,
Steve Sable, and some of the greatest figures in NFL history.
We've dug into the vault to find these original interviews
and now you get to hear them. Think of the
(00:27):
show as a time copsule, taking you back to a
specific period of a player or coach's career. Now I'm
here to help guide you, provide context and insights into
some of these lost treasures, as we used to like
to call them at NFL Films. Let's head into the
vault to visit with one of the more unique characters
(00:48):
in NFL history. This is Steve Sable conversation with Deacon Jones.
(01:08):
Deacon Jones was one of the most memorable characters back
in the nineteen sixties, the man who provided the identity
for the Fearsome Foursome. I love those old days when
they were cool nicknames for defenses. Remember the Purple People
Leaders in Minnesota, the Steel Curtain in Pittsburgh, and of
course the Fearsome foursome in Los Angeles. The Rams defensive
(01:30):
line consisted of Jones, Merlin Olson, Lamar Lundy, and Rosie Greer,
and they really were feared. But Merlin Olson was was
the nice guy, you know, that big old burly guy.
And Deacon, well he was hardly the soft spoken religious
leader his name would imply. Jones retired after the nineteen
(01:50):
seventy four season, where he played one year with Washington.
Fun fact, in his final game there, head coach George
Allen let Jones kick the extra point on Washington's final
touchdown of a forty two to nothing blow out over
the Bears. This interview took place in which, just so
happens to be the first year I began working as
(02:12):
a producer at NFL films. So back then we did
everything our own research, editing, writing, scoring, music, sound mixing.
But today those jobs are specialized. So in the same way,
the television production was different back then, so too was
the NFL and the league in the nineteen sixties. Well,
(02:35):
they didn't have the protection for players like they do now.
Suffice it to say, the emphasis on players safety has
come a long way. In this interview, you'll hear Deacon
talking about the head slap, which was outlawed in nineteen
seventy seven. He laments the use of situational substitution, which
for the most part, was just starting to creep its
(02:57):
way into the game in the early eighties when this
in view was conducted. So you know how I told
you that this show is like a time capsule, Well
this one really is. The league back then was so
incredibly different. Violence permeated the game even more so than today.
Dirty play was commonplace in the trenches and often went unchecked.
(03:18):
I mean, we even have shots of coaches smoking on
the sidelines during a game from the nineteen sixties. Hello
Norm Van Brooklyn. But I want to point something out
to you, sort of from a technical standpoint. The interview
you're about to hear isn't like the ones we featured
before on this podcast. No, Steve isn't sitting in a
church somewhere with Deacon, even though with his name you
(03:39):
kind of would expect him to. In fact, the two
are actually in a studio. Steve is not on camera,
nor is he on Mike. But this conversation that took
place with one of the most colorful characters in NFL
history was just too good not to share with you all.
So let's go to the vault here, Steve Sable and
(04:00):
Deacon Jones. I think when you started your career as
a true that in the beginning you were so great
you couldn't even get the stance right. I didn't even
you couldn't that your stance was horseship, That you couldn't
eed that your stance was better. Is that true? You know? I? Uh,
I was probably one of the greenest football players that
ever came into the NFL I had. I had a
particularly tough time when I came up because I did
(04:20):
not have the background or the fundamental background that I needed.
So I had to really be aggressive and I had
to really be in top physical conditions. So I I
came into camp at a lean mean two hundred and
fifty five pounds and I could outrun daylight. And uh
I made a lot of mistakes, but because I was
quick and fast, I was able to make up for it.
I remember one one instance in training camp, John and
(04:42):
Nette was carrying the ball off tackle. Tom Wilson laid
a good block. It was a regular sweep play power
sweep off the left side, and Tom Wilson laid a
great block on me and I was downing up and
head on that before he made one step past me.
And that was the type of thing that probably made
me make the team. It was was was Don Paul,
who's my defensive coast and saw even me that I
(05:03):
could I had to potential to be a great football player.
What about where don't you go to colleges? I know
you want to said there was another place a rude
Couldny Franciy got their name of the place to places. Well,
you know, Steve, basically I spent most of my time
at Saying Quentin University, but no, I went to South
Carolina State UM and UH school called Mississippi vocationally, and
it had been a Mississippi. I did just say that
(05:25):
too long. You know that that was just a little
too small for the deacon. I don't usually jump in
here this early in the interview, but the story behind
Deacon jones college career is really pretty amazing. Davy Jones. Yeah,
and yeah, that's what he was known as back then.
And keep that in mind when we go back to
the interview. Well, Davy Jones started his college career at
(05:46):
South Carolina State, but after participating in a civil rights
protest on campus. The school provoked his and many of
his teammates scholarships. But things got worse when one of
the assistant coaches from South Carolina State got the head
coaching job at Mississippi Vocational, which eventually became Mississippi Valley State.
He brought Jones and is expelled teammates to play there.
(06:09):
To say they weren't exactly welcomed, well, that would be
an understatement. It's one thing to get kicked out of school,
but Jones and his teammates from South Carolina State were
literally run out of town following the football season, driven
to the state line by Mississippi police, fearing for their lives.
That was it for Deacon Jones college career. Talk about
(06:31):
a different time. This is just an example of the
types of things that players of that era had to
endure and overcome. The most amazing part of the story,
perhaps Jones found out a few months later he was
drafted in the fourteenth round by the Rams. Another difference
between then and now. In ninette, the draft had twenty rounds.
(06:53):
Remember today there's only seven. As we head back to
the interview, I told you to remember Davy Jones. Right,
how do you get the nickname? But you know deacon
Deacon was a public relations stunt. Uh. I needed a
nickname when I came into the game. And my real
name is David Jones. And you look at the l
A phone book. You see twenty thirty David Jones is
in there. And I needed something to set me apart
(07:15):
from the rest of the path other than the fact
that I was the best football player. Deacon goes well
with Jones and you know the rest. When you were
talking about speed, how fast worry? I mean, because there's
some way we can relate that to hiss or you
were the fastest of the team, the fastest lineman, and
what how were how fast? I was safe? Let's say
at this point in time, I was the fastest in
the history of the game. Um, from a from a
(07:37):
dead stand still. I was a spending college and I
used to practice a great deal against my brother, who
was extremely fast. So I mean I was clocked a
little about my fourth point five seconds in the forty
at at at about two hundred and fifty five to sixty. So,
but my ladder of movements, along with my initial speed
was just fantastic. What about the the story about you
(07:58):
and Bobby Mentchell or we'll tell Well, you know, Bobby
was a fine outside receiver and and during that period
of time, you know, I just you know, my my,
My approach to the game was a just run, run, run, run, run,
when the whistle, when the whistle blow, I'd run from
whistle the gun. And there was a short out pattern
thrown the Bobby about a five yard out and the
(08:20):
cornerback came up, took a shot at the interception and missed,
and Bobby broke in the open field. And at that time, I,
you know, on a on a quick five yard outpattern,
all you can do is get your hands up trying
to knocked the ball down and turn and pursuit. So
when I turned to pursue Bobby broke in the open
it was me and him. He had about a five
six yard he had start on me, and I ran
alongside of him, I guess for about fift twenty yards
(08:42):
before I unleashed a devastating attack on his head. But
I just had to find out myself if I could
outrun and outside of receiver, and at that point in time,
I would have probably beat him about five six yards
in the forty How did you Now, I want to
talk about the which there one particular aspect of your game,
but you took particular pride in I mean everything us
(09:03):
we did, thought Lilly, Willie, Davis, yourself and Merlin, is
there somebody is there some aspects of the game you
look back and said, goddamn it, I was the best
at that one. There one move that you liked or
one thing took particular pride in. Well, without a doubt,
my top priority, and I would I would think that
I put more time into into perfecting a pass rush
(09:23):
and probably anything else, although I worked on the on
the on the complete phase of the game across the board,
but pass rush was was one thing that set me
apart from the pack. And I think to the day,
I think to the day my approach had passed or
still set me apart from the rest of the pack.
My consistency and pass rushing. By that I mean by that,
I mean no matter how many men you sent at me,
(09:45):
I still found a way to put pressure on the
on the quarterback. Now you don't always tackle the quarterback,
but but to put consistent pressure on him every down
is the is the key to the whole situation. Now,
I developed the thing they called the head slap and um,
and I also developed a term that is used in
the game right now called sacking the quarterback, which to me,
(10:06):
I got paid extra money for packing the quarterback. So
I put an extra hours on the practice field learning
moves that would help me in the game. Okay, both
most of your alignment to this day work on on
their first initial move when they come off the ball.
If alignment take that away from him, he's sitting there
or he's standing there in in one general area and
(10:28):
he's not doing anything. He's sort of like a no
man's land. But my whole approach was to develop an
alternative a move from the move. In other words, when
you stopped this one, I got something that put right
in on top of you. You spend you, you you you,
you play off the block, You do anything that you
can to put consistent pressure on the quarterback. And then
and then developing the head slap. The head slap was
(10:49):
to do two purposes. One was to give myself an
initial head start on the pass rush, in other words,
an extra step, because anytime you go upside a man's head,
they have a tendency to linked the eyes and close
the eyes, and that was all I needed, Gail said.
Has had a statement out that all he needed was
sixteen inches. Well, all I needed was a blink of
the old eyes, and I was by you. And that's
(11:10):
what the hair flat was. And then also when you
ran into a player like Conrad Dobler, you know, going
upside that head stopped the biting and the chewing and
all that other stuff, you know, So I kept the
holding controlled and it also gave me an extra step
on the past lesson. No doubt, pass rushers in the
nineteen sixties had some different moves in their toolbox, if
(11:31):
you will, one being the head slap, which at that
point in the game was legal or more accurately not illegal,
and the biting and chewing Deacon was talking about from
Conrad Dobler. Let's just say, battles along the line of
scrimmage were a little more no holds barred than they
are today. And Dobbler, the All Pro tackle with the St.
Louis Cardinals and Bills, was notorious for his less than
(11:53):
clean play. So how would Deacon take on a player
like Dobler, who, by the way, was featured on the
cover of Sport. It's illustrated as the NFL's dirtiest player. Well,
Steve got jones to play a little show and tell me,
could you demonstrate just don't have to stand if you
don't use it open Well, sometimes, Steve, I use an
open hand most of the time. But you know, when
I wanted to punish a guy for holding me or
(12:16):
doing some kind of illegal block, then I close a
fist and go upside the head. But anyway, it's a
blow right upside the head. Okay, that's the first initial blow.
And then you have to tie that in with getting
off the football real fast. You have to, you know,
if you notice my carea. I used to get called
offside a lot. But see, getting off the football is
where it all starts, and you got to anticipate the
(12:37):
count most of the time. So when I came off
the football with this enormous speed and upside the head
outside or inside or boat, you know, the man closes
his eyes or if you hit him from the outside,
his body shifts one way because he goes with the blow,
and that's all you need. And then that this arm
comes up under and rips him up. And then you
slide underneath and around to the quarterback and then you
(13:00):
you can set that move up once you get him
leaning outside. Then you come back inside with the same
move to the inside of the hill hell man, and
you get his head turned this way and then boom,
you're around it if you've got good speed. A gentleman
like Mark Gassing though could could really could really utilize
that move. He had more use of his hands. If
you notice he has two. He has two problems as
(13:21):
for his defensive end. His concern although he's a great
football player and potentially he can be as great as
he wants to be, but he needs work on playing
the inside and run. And also he needs alternative moves
from his normal pass rushing game because the boys are
doubling and tripling you now and you've got to have
a way to go. But I'd like to work with
him about one week or two weeks, and I guarantee
you he would be the most devastating and another than myself.
(13:44):
How about the statement you made, want someone to talk
about it about if you ever knocked the quarterback out
of the game, which you feel any resorse about that,
or was that that part of the game or what
while I played the game tough and hard knows and
every man I played against went down looking at me,
and I I compride myself and one thing, Steve, I
never in my life hit a man illegally, um, and
(14:07):
I never would accept anyone hit me illegally. Now, when
that happens, then you must serve justice, um. And if
you don't know how to serve justice, and you're gonna
get kicked around the league. I didn't have too many
times when when someone did something illegal because I played
it clean. And usually when you play it clean, the
guys reciprocate. I had an incident having to me in
(14:28):
San Francisco when Dick Nolan was head coach of the
forty nine. He put in a he put in a
play where John David cow who was in the tight end,
would flank out to the sideline and then he'd come
in motion back towards the line of scrimmage. And just
as the ball is snap, when I'm coming out looking
in like this, John David Coo came in right here
well outside the end. Is during that period of time
(14:51):
that's the illegal clips on and and not only that,
you could lose both of your knees and and probably
your life if you're not careful. So I told John Brodie,
who was a quarterback, then if he ran that again,
that'd be his last place, so John, but if he
was to running again, then I went in the locker
room the Foday night of the locker room, and I
approached Mr Nolan and I told him I expressed my
(15:11):
dissatisfaction about that type of play because there's no room
in the game for illegal illegal or blocks or illegal situations.
If you want to take a man out, it's very
easy to do looking at him square in the eye.
And that was my whole approach in the game. I
wanted to put as much fear into his heart and
as much pain on his back as I possibly could.
(15:32):
How did you coin the phrase sactic? Where did you
get the idea for that? Well, you know, sacking the cornerback.
It's just like like you like you devastate the city.
I mean, it's just like like you put all off
offensive players in one bag and I just take a
baseball bat and beat on the bag. Okay, we just
found the term. I mean, it was just it was
just it probably probably came from some word who was
(15:53):
using in the locker room, you know. And then at
that time I was getting a lot of media coverage
and I probably said that the summer right, and and
then you know how that type of thing compounds itself.
Dick Buckas was said earlier when he made a tackle,
he felt he was sending a message to the people
that he was tackling. And I said that, I mean,
he was unique that he tacklics always have him wrestling
(16:14):
guys around everything. How did you look on just the
tackle itself, I mean, was it just to get the
guy down or you want to label of a little bit,
or was it you know, Bucket Buckas is my idol,
whether you know it or not, His his farm, his
type of play was as devastating. I've always admired him,
and the times that I wanted I played in the
Pro Bowl with him. I always wish that we could
(16:35):
go a season together and see just how many people
we could really beat up. Um. My approach was basically
the same as his. George Allen taught me that when
you're tackling a man, every time you hear him, you
gotta make him pay. You gotta make him know that
when he comes in your territory. He's gonna get the
best you've got. I never thought about hurting the guy.
I always thought that if if I hit him and
(16:55):
break his in that and then I'll be the first
to send him flowers. Um My, My whole point was
was pretty much like Buckers. I wanted to hit. When
I hit and and put my back into it, you know, boom.
I mean, that's gonna provide that shot that's gonna probably
knock the ball loose, or let that put the intimidating
fear of God into that that that running back, let
(17:17):
him know and make him go back to that huddle
and tell his quarterback, damn it, I'm not running in
the Deacon Jones area anymore. So each time he came
over there, I tried to tear his damn head off
without with no remorse in my heart. I try to
put him in the hospital every time I tackle it.
What about the psyching out which what did you have
(17:39):
any conversation? I mean Buckers had a whole thing or
he ever he'd swear guys trying to break their concentration
where you're where you're psyche. I'll take place before the
game my side and I went the whole week and
right through Sunday, I talked about his mother. I'd call
him nasty names. I do anything I good to make
him either jump outside, make a quick move, a bad move,
(17:59):
and I'd get the upper hand on him. I always felt,
I always felt that the game is psychological, and I
did put try to intimidate my opponent during the course
of the week because I always knew that I was
in top shape, and no matter what I said to
him and how mad he got, he still had to
come out on that field and play me. Be could
nobody help him. He had to play me. So if
(18:20):
I wanted, if I chose to talk about him, if
I chose to say nasty things about him, I did that,
And it had nothing to do with anything else. It
was just trying to get the upper hand and get
the edge. And it does give you the edge because
with all the with all the information one has to
remember in the game, George Allen had almost fifteen hundred
plays and Audible's glory, so you know, and he could
(18:41):
pour one out the hat on you any time. So
you had to be if you can get a guy
to to miss the count or forget about his assignment,
well you got an edge. And if and if talking
about his mother or his wife or his kids to
do that, then that's the way it is. And if
you didn't like it, then the man is gonna snap
the ball. Next player, you can do something. The great
thing about Deacon is that his play really backed up
(19:04):
all his talk. But you have to know this, Deacon
is saying all these things with a smile on his face.
And even though he's been retired for a decade at
this point, his on field persona was always present. He
really makes you feel like he's still line it up.
Every Sunday when we come back, Stephen Deacon get into
some of the finer points of competition. As if we
(19:27):
haven't already heard some of his finer points. Stay tuned,
Welcome back to Tails from the Vault. Consider the intimidation
factor for an opponent knowing he was going up against
a man nicknamed the Secretary of Defense. I've always found
that players who get notoriety for their physical play often
(19:47):
get overlooked for their preparation. Jones studied the game, and
when he discovered a tell a tip off of an opponent,
his game was even more dominant. How about the tipoffs
anybody who played seat that you remember there were tipoffs
that you had Johnny United, the great Johnny United, the
guy I think probably was the greatest quarterback of all time.
(20:09):
I mean, of course, you know a lot of people
well say that other people were, but I mind, my
choice would be Johnny uniteds where John had two things
that he would do all the time. The first that
time that he got the caller play inside the twenty
yard line, it was always a draw. Play Number two,
John would always go on the counter to ninety five
(20:30):
percent at the time the count of two. And then
on his quick counts. It's the way he would walk
up to the line, you know. Normally he'd he walked
up to the line and he'd stand behind the quarterback,
I mean behind the center, you know, and and call
his olive the okay. When it's a quick count, he
walked straight from the hell up to the seller boom okay.
(20:51):
But you could you could bet your bottom dollar on
the fact that nine of his counts would be on two.
And that gave That's why we had some great pass
ruction days on Mr. United's because we we'd go into
our rolling start, so to speak, we'd anticipate we knew
we'd gonna be offside four or five times, but it
was worth it because it gave us a rolling start
on the on the pass raction. What about anybody ever
(21:14):
tried to psyche you? Anybody you could think of to
problem in problem in my early days? Um that that
that that tried to happen. I tell you when you
since you're talking about psyche jobs. I remember Donna or
not Donna Hue, but McDonald, John McDonald, who was a referee.
He died and John did a book and in that
(21:35):
book he told this story that happened between Jeane Upshaw
and I down in San Diego. It was I was
captain of San Diego defensive unit and Jean was the
offensive captain for the Raiders and we met it we
met for the coin toss before the game, and I
was really opt up at that point because the Raiders
(21:56):
in charges has a has a pretty tough rivalry match there.
So we were all ready, you know, and I came
out to try to get my open hand on Upshall.
And when when McDonald called us all together, you know,
and uh he tossed the coin. He asked Jean, he said, Jean,
what do you what do you wanna do you want
to kick a receive? And Jeane said, you said, I'll
(22:18):
kick in received. Well, you know you can't have both.
But I said, hold, uh, Donna, you I said, let
him have both. I'm gonna kick his ass anyway. I said,
give him both, you know. So we went at it
with the verbal exchange right there at midfield and McDonald
just fell out laughing. I mean, you know, Jane and
I was serious as a heart attack, but McDonald thought
was really kidding, you know, But we wasn't. But that
(22:38):
was a really funny scene. But you try to get
your slacks in, and I think everybody in the game
does that in every sport. Your reputation, it's a very
distinctive reputation. Starlock had one focus has one part star
and yourself. Did you ever feel I was a burden
that that that reputation, that you're almost like a gunfighter,
that coming out every Sunday, that you have every young
kids trying to knock you off? Do you ever feel
(22:59):
something eyes of him? Maybe I shouldn't have said that,
or or maybe I should have kept quiet, or was
that a reputation that made you we've played better? No?
I I never felt sorry for about anything I said.
You see you, I guess you each each personality. Um,
I think his whole, his whole approach to the game
is predicated on his upblainging, what type of lifestyle he
had probably going in the football. See football is a
(23:21):
gruesome game. It's We're the modern day Roman Gladiators. I mean,
the only difference between us and the Roman Gladiators is
we got referees and we don't fight to the death.
But but that's exactly what we are now. My background,
I came from a rough neighborhood. Okay, I led games.
I had to, I as soon leadership in the early days,
you know. And and if we were gonna go out
(23:41):
and beat up somebody, we went out and beat up somebody,
and I led that attack. So I had no problem
with football. And when I what I said is what
I believed at the time, and I never felt sorry
for anything I said. I was misquoted in some cases,
but I mean we all we have that. We have
that and you have to accept that. But I think
that I said what I believed and I tried to
(24:02):
execute everything that I said. If I if I was gonna,
if I was gonna get a quarterback, or if I
was gonna get somebody, I got them. And I worked
that week to prepare myself to do that. And I
like to think that with that approach to the game, attack, attack, attack,
I walked out totally unmocked. And I think that that
recommend itself. Fourteen years in opposing, four in college and
(24:25):
three in high school is second to none. I have
no scratches, no mobs, and nothing but a bleeding heart.
All right, here's an interesting quote I want you to
react to as a psychologist that wrote something about defensive players,
and he said, when you're discussing a successful defensive football player,
you're not necessarily drawing the profile of an entirely healthy person.
(24:45):
Why would why would this psychologist say something about that
about your profession like that, Well, he's probably an offensive player. Um,
I don't know. I think that. I think that probably
back in the sixties, we had one of these guys
that came in the camp can he did ah, he
did a personality analysis by position and when he got
(25:07):
to when he got to the defensive line. We were
always a type that drove fast cars and we would
allowed us in bars. We drank the most. We were
probably the most expensive clothes. Everything we did was on
the up key. Well, when you when you break that
down and you look at the offensive lineman, and he's
the guy that drives the station wagon and he has
(25:27):
five six kids. He's the he's the family guy. He
goes home every night. He's not gonna he's not gonna
get on television and say I'm gonna knock the hell
out of this guy. He's not gonna do that. This
personality don't match up that way. Well, I like to
think that because our game is attack, a bestive attack,
and you gotta kill a mosquito with an axe, I
would think that our personalities uh puts that type of
(25:51):
thing out and lets the people know that we are
an animal, so to speak. Because down in the pit,
you gotta be that you're attacking. You're not absorbing. Offensive
players absorbed they take those when you give blows. Your
personality is gonna be like that, and you you're gonna
be involved in fast things and your lifestyle is gonna
be of the fast nature. How would if you were
playing today and they were doing the situation substitution, how
(26:12):
would you react to that? How to retire? I'm i
come to play sixty minutes of football and I could not.
You see, you got to study the man, you got
the feel of man. You got to get in the
floor path through us. You got to get in the
floor of the game. I don't see how no one
can get into the floor game coming in and out. Um.
I tried. I tried that my last year with George
John playing on them on that type of situation, and
(26:35):
and it's just I never got warmed up, never got
into the floor of the game, never could use any
of the stuff that I studied all week on the man,
because sometimes you got to wait on that tip to
to to avail um and sometimes it may not come
to the third quarter, the fourth quarter, and you just
got there. You don't. You don't know that until you're
feeling you know, and you get into the floor of
playing football, and you can't do it running in and out.
(26:57):
I think my personal opinion about such situation, substitution stuff,
that I would not have been the type of player
you know, to to to deal with that type of thing.
For December reason that I had to get into the
floor of the game. I had to. I had to
feel my man out. I did a lot of study
on the game. Um, when you play for George Allen,
(27:18):
you learn how to study the game of football, and
you do it on your own time, and you know
how to find weaknesses. Well to utilize those weaknesses, you
gotta be on the field of play. And also, and also,
I think that the reason that we are into a
heavy situation substitution situation, it gets the coach involved in
the game. The coach now has gone to the media attention.
You know, they can get jobs. See John Madden was
(27:39):
John Madden did such a fantastic job for CBS, and
and Dick Vamill is doing a good job for NBC.
I think now the coaches the same way. We better
get involved in this game so we can get in
TV two. Well, let me tell you, I also believe
that you got to put Levin out there on offense
and Leven on defense, and let's go at it. And
the only time we make changes is when you've got
(28:00):
an injury. But I think that that that makes for
a good football game. You get into the flow of it,
and I don't think that you can get into the
flow of it coming in and out. It's so interesting
to hear this, considering that coaches today count on a
defensive line rotation to keep their players fresh. Imagine what
Deacon Jones would have to say about that. But he
played in an era when situational substitution wasn't a thing.
(28:22):
Back then, you had to play sixty minutes and players
didn't even have access to the types of elite training
facilities and cutting edge programs that they do today. Sure
they could lift weights, but oftentimes it was up to
the players to get themselves ready for the football season. Now, look,
I've spent a lot of time learning about and observing
players training techniques, and yes, I've actually run the famous
(28:45):
Hills with Jerry Rice. But here Steve Unearthed's one of
the more unique training regiments I've ever heard about. Now,
without giving anything away, imagine what it must be like
seeing Deacon Jones doing this when you're out for a
day at the beach. Pretty secret, drop, Dick, that you
used the reason for the reason I don't have no
(29:06):
I don't have no no cuts on my knees. That's
the secret I'll tell you right now in America where
I don't have no cuts on my knees and I
just spend on time in the local hospitals. What was was,
oh you're ready. Yeah, oh, I prided I was on camera.
But now I trained from the from my rookie year
of that straight through my career on the beach with
(29:28):
combat boots on five pound weights on each ankle, and
I did all my exercises, all my running and hard
spreading and in the deep sand at the beach. Okay,
I did that all during the off season, and my pride,
my prior training and going to training camp. Now what
that does for you when you running there by six
months and that deep sand. Never never on a track
(29:48):
or never on a football field. Okay, keep them weights
on my ankles well, and in most knee operations, I
must knee injuries rather that it's because you're number one fatigue.
It's it in and on impact. When the legs planted,
you get that, you're gonna get a cottage there. But
if the knees always doing this, no matter what the
(30:11):
case is, if they're always doing this and you hit it,
you get that gain all the pressures off the cottages
and the legal mats. Well, to do that for sixty
minutes of football, you gotta go through that type of training.
In other words, when I came out there and helped
to improve my speed, improve my leg drive, and improved
my overall approach to the game. And I like to
think that that was of the reason I did not
(30:34):
get any leg injuries or any other in other superb condition,
and my legs were allowed to do this at all
times and never never had to worry about fatigue. Deacon
wasn't kidding about coming out of the game unscathed. He
missed a grand total of five games in fourteen seasons.
And it's even more remarkable considering that player protections, especially
(30:54):
for defensive players in the trenches, were not a priority
when Jones played. When we come back, Steve has Deacon
scalped some of his biggest rivals and puts them on
the spot about his favorite teammates and coaches. Welcome back
to Tales from the Vault. You know those NFL Top
one shows where players talk about other players and tell
(31:18):
stories about what made them so great or easier hard
to play against. Well, it's interviews like this that supply
all that great material. Steve often like to end his
interviews asking his subjects about their teammates and opponents. Now,
a lot of times guys would just say positive things,
not wanting to dis one of their peers. But this
is Deacon Jones we're talking with here. He was not
(31:40):
shy about talking about some of the game's greats. Hey
did mince words about anyone. So I'll give you a
brief background about some of the names you're about to hear.
Merlin Olsen was Jones's teammate with the Rams and one
of the members of the fame Fearsome Foursome. Fran Tarkantin
and Bart Star just a couple of Hall of Fame quarterbacks.
George Allen was Deacons coach in Los Angeles and Washington.
(32:04):
Did buckus Well, if you don't know who he is,
you shouldn't be listening to this podcast anyway. But he
was the legendary linebacker for the Bears. The last two players, Deacon,
we'll be talking about our Gayl Sayers and Jim Brown,
two of the greatest running backs of all time. Here's
a couple of guys want you to talk about if
you played with him against Merlin Olson Blanson. To me,
(32:27):
it was probably the greatest defensive tackle to play the game.
Probably I'd get a lot of flag from Dallas because
Bob Lily ain't no push over. But I I say,
because he was my teammate, and and and if I
had to pick the player, the first player I wanted
to start out with, it would be Meron. Marlan had
a lot of attributes, and I'm very proud of one
(32:48):
thing about him. You never could roll him. You never
could make him mad. Even Conrad Dobla couldn't make him mad.
Merlin was a nice guy, strong physically strong. He'd always
try to beat his man the way to book said.
You know a couple of times I said, Morlly, he
had this turkey. You know, a guy beholding him or
biking him or doing something crazy tactic, and Merland won't
retaliate that way. He'll try to humiliate the guy through
(33:10):
beating him to the quarterback or making the tackle or
doing something in his area that caused more attention. He
never did concentrate on that phase of the game, and
I respect him for that, and also his ability to
know what the hell he was doing there. It was
just like a right arm. I mean, it was just
like just like a fifty year old wife. You know.
When he wasn't in there, I mean, you knew the difference.
(33:32):
You knew the difference because there was so many things
that that allowed me to rush the passer. I could
give up the Merlin because he could take it that
whole area over there on the run on the run side.
And if we wanted to gamble to free me on
the past Russ situation, or run a stunt, or run
a stunt in a crazy situation. See me and Molan,
we run stunts inside the ten yard line. Were not
very many defensive combinations or do that, But then again,
(33:55):
we're the only defensive combination in the Hall of Fame too.
Was it like playing? I guess I'm gonna start with
the friend target targeting was a pain in the ass
he he um. You know. He slammed with so much
and and plan was very very fast, you know, a
lot faster that people gave him credit for his ability
to make quick cuts, stop on a dime, change directions.
(34:18):
I almost threw my shoulder three more times when I
thought I had him and I went to a kill
and I missed, you know. And when you're out here
with that pharm man, you know, and if you don't
connect with something all this and he'll go And I
almost did that a couple of times, so I had
to let that go and I just tried. He's probably
the only football player I went into just trying to
get him down and the hell with him to knock
(34:39):
him out. Did you remember quarterback that was particularly sassy
or to you or something that that you sack and
that he he he, pisket, piste off or challenger or
most of them just saying well, nice job, Mr Jones
or everything. Do you remember anything, Well, you know, you know,
for the most part, you never got you never got
any sassiness from a quarterback because he in such a
(35:00):
vulnerable position. But you did have certain guys that would
say certain things that normally it would be the wrong
thing at the wrong time. I think of Atlanta Falcons
had a quarterback by the name of Bob Barry. We
were playing the Falcons in the early days, and um um,
you said, I've never lost the game to the Falcons
(35:21):
during my period of time in the NFL, And I
at that time had dislocated my thumb and I wore
a half cast on my thumb. Well, I wore that
cast about two and a half years because it made
a hellever weapon when I passed through us with it.
You know, of course I would rapid with a thin
layer of form, you know. But Mr Barry said a
(35:42):
comment to me. Um in Atlanta and Lindon, Eric Lindon
was playing taco and at the time he was a pigeon.
So I blew by him on the next play, and
just as I got to Berry, I dropped that cast
out just like that and kept going and I called
him run up under it with it, And as hell
Man flew off down the fieldman was down with me
(36:03):
because I kept going. I hit him and kept going,
and he stood there for a minute. I said, no,
he cannot take my best stuff, and then boom, he crumbled.
You know, he was out like a light. How about
the park star and he was just the opposite me.
Was there something that you ever felt guilty about really
hitting him hard? Or he was such a nice guy.
It was always apologizing, you know. I mean, you know
(36:23):
you hit him, he apologized you. But it was such
a nice guy. But it sent me a telegram when
I got inducted into the Hall of Fame. I mean, um,
he was he was like he was a guy that
you respect and you played hard against cause he played
hard against you. But you know, you you you didn't.
I don't know what it was. I thought I was
really going after his head. But when I look at
(36:43):
the film, I let him go a lot of times
because he was a nice guy. You're not as was
the same kind of guy. Why don't you just say
cock sucker, you don't belong here. Don't say nice things?
You know? Was there any player in your courage that
you really enjoyed playing against a long time of you. Yes,
I enjoyed playing against Money Stiles. He's not Money Clock.
I'm sorry, Money Clock. He's not the head coach of
(37:04):
the Detroit lines. My name was offensive right tackle. And
I have to say during the time that they had
we had the second place game down in Miami. We
called it the Loser's Bowl. Uh, the second place teams
played the play the playoff game now and we beat
Dallas thirty five thirty one nothing now, and then we'd
be Cleveland thirty one to three. And each time I
was the most valuable player. And every time I played
(37:25):
against Money, I had them. I had one of them.
Super games were down there, down there, after a good
week of flings and good times. You know, I think
I had twenty two. I had two unassisted tackles on
Money and about six about six sacks on the quarterback
of block punting, the block block epstra point and a
block field goal, and uh, I wanted the most valuable
(37:47):
Players Bowl years and I would have to say that
that that I I think I had the intimidating factor
in on Money and I think I had his number
because I never had a bad game against it all
talk George Allen, he was an interesting personality as a coach.
I mean, he seems to have that boyish enthusiasm and
yet he was sort of the devious kind of a guy.
I remember a lot of stories about him, talk with
(38:10):
Fred Dryer about how he liked his chopped stackers, chocolate
chip cookies at night, and a lot of really weird
do you remember thinks about Alan that struck you? Kind
of stranger things that he would do that were kind
of a little But George and I were very very close.
Um as far as um as far as I'm exploits
in the game's concerned weak. He's the type of man
(38:30):
that is very very dedicated. He's the type of man
that that puts on a lot of ours. I think
some of them unnecessary, but that's the way he sees it.
He puts in a lot of hours. There's nothing, no
phase of the game that he don't cover during the
week prior to playing a team. He forces you to
study the game and he forced you to learn it.
He gives you a lot of material to work with.
He gives you that individual coaching and teaching on the
(38:52):
field and also in the in the classroom that you
need to become a good football player. And when you
go into a game, you know that there is not
one phase of the fight you because you have been
prepared and you've studied everything that could possibly happen to
you that Sunday. And if there isn't adjustment that has
to be made, you can you can make it on
the sideline because you give you that much material and
(39:13):
you know it so well well. We have long practices,
and that's what a lot of the young Lambs didn't like.
There's there's two album for the environment practices. They don't
like that, and then the harder running. But then we
were never out conditioned by nobody. See, we were in
the fourth quarter. We won probably six games in the
fourth quarter because we were in better pair, better prepared
and in better conditions. Well, a lot of guys didn't
(39:34):
like george methods. Okay, I like them because they were
successful for me. Um. I needed his type of domination
and his type of leadership, his type of individual coaching techniques.
I needed that personally. So I I nominated him to
be my present in the Hall of Fame for the
simple reason that had it not been for that special attention,
(39:56):
I would not have been the football player that I was.
And then he took my game and he did not
try to change my game. He created and cultivated and
directed the defense around my skills because he knew they
were unusual and they were dominating. We invented the five
man line under George. You know, I was getting double
team and triple team outside and it was it was
(40:19):
hinting in my past for us. So we created a
five man line, took out a middle linebacker, put me
over the center to create the one on one situation.
So we did a lot of things and a lot
of innovative moves in order to free me up and
put me into the floor of the defense, which I
think was a lot of responsibility he gave me and
I adhered to it, and I answered the Bell because
he would work the hell out of you. And that's
(40:41):
the only way you can be a great football player.
You got to you got to work and work and work.
Take fuckers. Well, the only thing I can say about
the great Dick Buckers, I'll say it in the in
the in the point, voses are red and violens are blue.
If you got any sense, you'll keep buckets away from you.
I think he hated everybody that was in another uniform,
(41:04):
and he played just like that. I remember we were
doing some commercials, some light beer commercials, and uh mr,
Butkers was sitting on the set, you know, it was
in between shots and he was sitting there. And this
was in the early days when he first started doing
the commercials, and he was sitting there just like he
was getting ready for a game. You know, he was,
you know, he sitting with his head down and just
good in his teeth. Man, I said, Dick, I said,
(41:24):
don't put a light beer bottle in your mouth, man,
because you saw at all, you know, and here's a
man sitting there with nine knee operations and he couldn't
play if if they offered him a million a minute.
But he was just that intense. He was an intense
football player. He was an animal, and he was a
well conditioned animal. And every time he hits you, he
tried to put you in the cemetery, not the hospital.
(41:46):
Last question, Gail Sayers, what was the play? It was terrible.
I mean, I never wished any man any bad luck
in my life, and I know Gail real well, but
for a man to make a Hall of Fame in
three years, you know, he got to be an animal.
He's got to be the toughest running back I think
I ever played the game other than Jim Brown. With
Jim Brown was a different kind of runner. Gayl Says
could beat you straight ahead. He could beat your left right,
(42:09):
and with dazzling speed. I mean with speed that he
could hit a whole cooking of anybody I've ever seen.
I'm him. In one probo game, Johnny United on the
State died play handoff we had we must have run
that played for the time because Sears will be five
yards now and when the United made his turn to
hand it over to him, you know, running leave the ball. Well,
he was. He so quick, he was so fast, and
(42:31):
I was a little bit elated than happy when he
couldn't and he couldn't make my life misserable no more.
And I never would have wished anything bad on anybody.
But but man, when you see him as much as
we did, we had him twice a year when we
were playing the same division, and he was just you
just couldn't stop him. And we had a big, fast line.
And thank god he did not have a good offensive
line his career, because if he did, he would have
(42:52):
been doubly hard. You mentioned Jimmy Brown, what about him, Well,
Jimmy is, I guess, the supreme runner. He's a supreme guy. Jimmy.
Jimmy did all his and nine years and he walked
out on Mark And he's got to be the only
running back in the history of the game to walk
out on marb And I don't think that anyone can
(43:13):
be put in his category. Although people are gonna break
his record, you gotta remember they were doing it in
the sixteen games and fourteen games and he did all
this and nine and he walked out the game and
we were happy to see him go to But he
walked out when he could have played another five ten years.
And Brown had to be, without a doubt, pound for
pounds is like Will Chamond is a basketball the best,
(43:35):
all right, that's it. If Steven asked Deacon Jones if
he was the best pass rusher of all time, I
have no doubt that Jones, who actually died, would have
said absolutely. But for all his pass rushing prowess, Remember,
he was also renowned for coining the word sack, pretty
ironic considering he never officially had one since the term
(43:58):
didn't exist well he was playing. Sacks weren't kept as
a stat until two eight years after Deacon retired, but unofficially,
thanks to our friends at Pro Football Reference, Deacon Jones
has the third most sacks of all time, a hundred
and seventy three point five, behind only Bruce Smith and
(44:19):
the Great Reggie White. But consider this, from nineteen sixty
four to nineteen sixty nine, Jones had a hundred and
fifteen sacks, So in eighty four games he averaged one
point three five sacks per game. Only two players every
even averaged one sack per game over six seasons, Mark
Gastineau and Reggie White. Ah. The late Great Reggie White
(44:42):
full disclosure, one of my most favorite players ever. Next
week we have Steve's interview with the Minister of Defense,
conducted the summer after Reggie won his first Super Bowl.
It's really special to me, and I hope it will
be for you as well. You don't want to miss it.
Thanks for listening, and I sure hope you'll join us
next week. I'm Andrea Kramer.
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