February 9, 2022 • 37 mins
Host Andrea Kremer takes us back to 1986 when NFL Films Steve Sabol interviewed Hall of Famer John Madden. Steve starts off with John talking about his philosophy on what it takes to be a football player. We hear John's perspective on being part of several famous plays the Raiders took part in like The Immaculate Reception, The Holy Roller, and The Ghost to the Post. After talking games with names, Steve moved onto Madden's stories with Raiders greats Ken Stabler and Al Davis. The Coach always thought it was difficult to understand the complex Raiders owner when most articles and TV pieces tried to simplify him. We also hear some special moments Andrea shared with Madden during her interviews with the Coach.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to NFL Films Tales from the Vault. I'm your host,
Andrea Kramer. In four, I started my Hall of Fame
career at NFL Films as a producer, and Steve Sable
was my boss. Steve was a creative genius, a brilliant cinematographer.
And by now, if you've listened to this podcast, you
(00:25):
know he's an expert interviewer. And by the way, if
you haven't been listening, where the heck have you been?
But look, this podcast showcases some of the greatest interviews
that Steve Sable ever did, raw unedited conversations, none of
which have ever been heard before in their entirety. My role, well,
I'm here to guide you through them, providing context, insight,
(00:48):
and share some of my own experiences along the way.
Today we head to the Vault for a very special interview,
Steve Sables six conversation with the late eight John Madden.
(01:16):
In six, John Madden was eight years into his broadcasting
career with CBS, established as the top announcer in the NFL,
already a commercial sensation, but not yet a video game icon. Now,
remember how I mentioned that I'm going to share some
of my own experiences with you in this podcast. Well,
(01:37):
this one is particularly special to me because I got
to work with Coach and yes, that's what we all
called him. I worked with Coach over the course of
my thirty plus year career, including three years together on
NBC's Sunday Night Football. But when I'm starting out as
a producer turned reporter at NFL Films, there was a
memorable interview that I did with Coach Madden back. So
(02:01):
we're happy to bring you some extra Madden bonus content.
How do you reconcile that the Raiders have a dirty label? Well?
I think that was you know, that was good. I
you know, that was something that we never fought. I
think part of that went with Oakland, the Colosseum, the
silver and black, the helmets, you know, the whole thing,
(02:24):
And that's what your persona becomes, and it's going to
be that. So why not capitalize and say, Okay, yeah,
people believe that. Yeah, I mean they want to say
the Raiders are dirty. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, we're dirty. What
are you gonna do about? Boy? You really miss that
kind of honesty in today's media landscape. But I remember
(02:44):
there was a quote at the end of the interview
that I loved, where Coach was talking about not getting
his players too hyped up before a game. It's better
to hear it from his mouth, not just my paraphrase.
I am so hyper. I'm going to get them all hyper.
They're gonna go out there expending too much nervous energy before.
I mean, you know, you you don't let out your host,
(03:07):
tell you know where the fire is. And I I
didn't want them to be letting out their host two
hours before. You know, we didn't get to the fire yet.
Coach certainly had a way with words, metaphors, and imagery.
But today's podcast features the interview that Steve did with
John Madden back in six. He asks him about all
(03:27):
those famous Raiders plays, including the Holy Roller, the Immaculate Reception,
the Sea of Hands. But Steve also talks to Coach
about Raiders legends like Al Davis, Kenny Stabler, and Geane Upshaw.
But he starts off asking Madden a philosophical question, because
who better to discuss football philosophy with than John Madden?
And again this has a unique connection to yours truly.
(03:51):
In six I was a writer and editor on a
show called Autumn Ritual, it's like a cult film, and
to this day it remains one of the most influential
and meaningful productions of my career. The show examined the
essence of football from a viewpoint outside the arena, and
there were voices of a lot of non football types
(04:12):
of a poet, musician, dancer, politician, writers, but they also
needed some football people in the show too. And even
though John Madden was more famously known for his bluster
and emotional reactions, he was also extremely thoughtful and of
course a master full storyteller. So that's where we start
(04:34):
off as we head to the vault for Steve Sable
and John Madden. John, we're doing a program fulled on
of ritual and we're using a lot of theologians and
sociologists and anthropologists me of Andy Warhol and Norman Mailor
and Parisha and everybody's giving their questions of pro football.
And one anthropologists we interviews talked about the condition that
a Gloria would have to get in before he would
(04:54):
go on a hunter in the battle, and and and
and making a correlation between the mental state it's it's
necessary to play professional football, relating that to going in
the war to combat. You think that that's a valid Yeah,
I think that's something. I think that that's something in
every athlete and every sport worries about, or at least
in the combative sports, that you don't go around hitting
(05:18):
and being aggressive and being hit. But at the moment
when someone rings a bell or blows the whistle, you
have to kick that attitude in, and you hope that
it always does because you can't test it, you know.
I mean a fighter he's going to fight on Friday night.
He can't go around on Thursday night to see if
(05:39):
it's there because he's not fighting Thursday night. And you
don't go around because it's not natural a lot of
things that you do in contact. So you hope that
whatever it is, that when you're ready to play the game,
that it kicks in. And sometimes it doesn't, and you know,
and sometimes they just can't get it, and that's where
where a guy gets scared, and that's usually when they
(06:01):
start getting out of the game. It's a very dangerous
thing that there's an attitude. It's a different thing, it's
a different personality, and when you walk onto that field
or across that line, it has to kick in because
it's not always. There is there anything that you could
do for that, John, No, there's nothing, because it's not
(06:22):
something that's manufactured. It's something that has to be And
if it's not there, there's nothing you can do about it.
There's nothing you can do. I mean, if it doesn't
come in, If it doesn't you know, if it's just
you know, part of an attitude or a guy you know,
you can you could get them upset and get them
upset with you. And and maybe but that attitude of
(06:43):
of where hitting is fun and hitting feels good and
being hit feels good. I mean, you get to that,
but it's not natural and it doesn't come naturally. You
just hope that it comes you. You ask any player
you know, you can talk about before what they do
and going into what they do, but you ask them
about watching films and they don't know it. They don't know.
(07:04):
I mean, they don't know that they're doing for the
watching the film and that that thing that has to
kick in is that attitude to getting hit doesn't hurt,
and it really doesn't at that time, it doesn't hurt.
I mean, I mean, you watch a boxing matter, I
mean how those guys take those punches and they don't hurt,
but whatever that is, it's there. And the football player,
(07:25):
I mean, the guy runs and he gets those collisions,
you know, and gets hit and spun around and knocked
back and head and and it just gets up and
walks back and and it doesn't hurt, but it would
hurt the next day. And then they watch film they
don't even know what happened to him. One of the
most publicized things about about yourself is why you quit coaching,
(07:46):
But to go back and do it, to do a
feature on yourself, what did you enjoy most about coaching?
That's something I enjoyed most. I enjoyed the games. That
was a fun I mean, if there's anything I missed,
it was a guy I didn't And then take everything back,
you know from that is was you know, gets to
be non enjoyable. And I enjoyed the games on Sunday
(08:09):
and the big games. You know where you were going
and you know you're going in and playing the Pittsburgh
Steelers in Pittsburgh. I loved it, you know. But in
the years, one day I was Kansas City, you know,
in Kansas City or even Oakland or Miami. You know,
the big games are traditional ones a rivalry run we
had it with the Jets, you know we name with
(08:30):
those are fun. I mean that was really fun. That
was really fun. And then the other games, I like
the other games other stuff you just get tired of it.
I mean things like you know, practice and meetings and
watching film and the draft and you know, media and
all that stuff. The games were always fun. How would
(08:52):
you react to the state. And there's a famous sports
psychologist that that did an analysis of successful football coaches
and he said that when you look at the mental
profile of a successful football coach, you're not necessarily looking
at the profile of an entirely healthy person. Do you
think there's something to say in relating it to your
to your own experience, Yeah, you know, I mean as myself.
(09:14):
I mean, if they're talking about me, I would agree
with that. I I look at at Don Shula and
Tom Landry and Chuck and all, and I'm marveled with them.
I really do. I mean, because they've done it, they've
done it well, and they've done it over a long
period of time and I have no idea how they
and I think that they're well, I mean I think
(09:34):
that they are. I would uh, you know, I mean
the things that you do. You drive yourself a lot
of a superstition, you know, I mean a lot of
It starts with we win a big game against Kansas
City on Wednesday night. We worked on our offensive game plan.
We finished it. We worked until two in the morning.
Now next now you beat Kansas City. So now it's
(09:55):
next week and it's one o'clock in the morning. You say, well,
we're tired. How to go home? He said, well, last
week we worked until two and we had a good
game plan. So you stay until too. You do something,
and then you want to do it better, so better
things longer, and pretty soon you're putting in such long
hours that you get to vegetate and it's not right,
(10:18):
and you build up a lot of things you believe
that has to be done and you and if you
do them then they're really taking everything out of you.
And if you don't do them, then you feel guilty
for not doing them. I want to change the trying
to with yourself. We have so many great shots of
you on the sidelines and emotionally where you think that
that was a lot of people would say, well, how
(10:40):
can you think clearly like that? The coach is always
going to be the placid, you know, was that something
that was that you felt was a drawback in your building. No,
I I could always think. I mean, the thing that
I had the ability to do was get mad. But
what I was doing was just reacting to what happened
at the moment. But then that reaction would go away
(11:02):
and and I would I could always think the next thing.
I was always thinking ahead anyway, and uh, and some
of the things that I did were just reactions, but
they were reactions that didn't last for a long time.
I mean, I mean I still do that. I've always
been there. I mean, I can get mad at someone,
but I don't stay mad. I mean, I can get
real mad right now, and then five seconds later, I'm
(11:25):
not mad anymore. But I've always when it comes, I've
always let it go out, you know, not not hold
it in. And that was the way that I coached.
And I didn't do it. I mean I didn't know that.
I do you know. I'm talking about players and seeing
themselves in films. I used to see pictures of myself.
I believe that I didn't do that. I mean, I
couldn't have done that. I don't remember doing that. I
(11:47):
didn't think about it. I didn't, you know, premeditate that
I was going to do. It just came out as
a reaction. But it was a quick reaction. Then it
would be over and then it would be on to
the next thing. There were a couple of things, as
the coach said, that really resonated for me. Remember, Madden
never had a losing season as a head coach. He
lasted ten years. In fact, he felt that was the
(12:09):
expiration date for a head coach. So it's interesting to
hear him Laude Don Shula, Tom Landry, and Chuck nol
for coaching over a long period of time. And then
there were some things that he said that carry over
directly from coaching to broadcasting. For example, he talked about
how he enjoyed the games, especially the rivalry ones, but
(12:32):
he also mentioned practice meetings and watching film, things that
he added to the preparation process for his broadcast that
were never done before. We would watch film on Friday afternoons,
conduct production meetings with players and coaches, and of course
go to the home team's practice. And then there was
what Madden said about always thinking ahead and having a
(12:55):
quick reaction qualities that helped him as a head coach,
but also to excel as an analyst. When we come back,
Madden recalls some of the most famous games in Raiders history,
including his conspiracy theory on the Immaculate Reception. Welcome back
to Tales from the Vault. You know, they just don't
(13:18):
make games with names like they used to. I mean,
we just had that incredible Kansas City Buffalo divisional playoff
game and they're calling it the Second Game. I mean,
come on, that is not a nickname commensurate with this
kind of instant classic. I mean games with names defined
the seventies. What do I mean? Well, think of the
(13:41):
Holy Roller, the Immaculate Reception, the sea of hands that
goes to the post. And what's one thing all those
games had in common, John Madden and the Oakland Raiders.
One of the most memorable moments in NFL history and
the Holy Roller. Is there anything that you remember when
I just mentioned that to you about that play? Yeah.
(14:02):
The big thing about that play is is just before
the play, we had a time out, which was our
last time out, and Ken Stabler came over to the
sideline and we talked about the play the past that
we were going to call the play. We were going
to run. And after that, the last thing I remember
telling him is, look, we don't have any more time outs,
(14:24):
so you can't take a sack. You have to get
rid of ball. Said, no matter what happened, if there's
nothing open, throw the ball away, get rid of the ball.
You can't take the sack because there's no time I
had to save it. So then of course he started
to play. The rush came upon him. He knew that
he couldn't take the sack because if it took the
sack to games over, there's no time out. So he
(14:45):
started to take the sack. And then remember he couldn't
take a sack, so he just put the ball down
and then guys kept picking it up and running it
in And the next thing I know was a touching.
Now ten seconds lapt Oakland trio took fourteen. The crowd
takes up a chat of defense. Robisky and Banazak are
the back slot right, ranch inside table back, It comes around,
(15:09):
she side steps, can you fall? He can't? The ball
flip falling, as well as a while scramble two second
one o'clock Casper grabbing a ball get his roll of
crumble cast bars by covered in the end zone, hilts
and raids of start on the most sceny, unbelievable, absolutely
impossible dream of a play. Stabberd while being hit the
(15:33):
ball squirted forward. Madden is on the field. He wants
to know if it's real. They said, yes, get your
big butt out of here. He does. What was your
reaction to it? Did you think it was? Did you
celebrate right away? No? I didn't know. I mean I
I didn't know. I mean I saw the ball down
and I knew. I knew the time that if if
(15:55):
we recovered whoever got the ball before it went in
the end zone, if anyone did, the game's over because
there's no time. And uh so I'm just hoping that
that it just keeps on going, that it never gets over.
And then finally when Casper falls on and I know
he's in the end zone, I know that if they
rule everything else legal, that it's a touchdown. So I
(16:17):
didn't know it was a touchdown. So I was running
out to find out one if it was a touchdown,
and two if they said it wasn't, I was going
to argue the case whatever reason I could think of
quickly that it was. There's nothing real in the world anymore.
The Raiders won the football game. The Chargers are standing
looking at each other, looking at the sky. They don't
(16:39):
believe it. Nobody believes it. I don't know if the
Raiders believe it. It's not real. A man would be
a fool. Who ever tried and write a drama and
make you believe it, This one will be relieved. Whoever.
The other play that you were involved in, and you
told me once several years ago, you're interesting story about
the immaculate reception, about what up and after the play. Well,
(17:01):
the thing about about that play that bothered me then
bothers me today and will bother me until the day
I die, is that in the history of football, when
a guy crosses a goal line, it's either a touchdown
or it's not. This time they had the whole thing.
Franco Harris runs in. They didn't call a touchdown. They
(17:23):
didn't know if it was a touchdown. Now they all
went out and they had their little meeting. And I
went out and I was part of the meeting. And
it was at three River Stadium in Pittsburgh, and everyone
else was out there in the field and they said, getaway.
We don't know what happened. And I knew that they
didn't know what happened, and I was out there to
tell him what happened because they didn't know, and I
(17:44):
may as well put in my length so anyway, so
now they don't know. So now the referee leaves that huddle,
which was in the end zone, and he goes over
to the dugout on the Pittsburgh Steeler side and he
gets on the phone and he makes a call to someone.
And I still don't know who we made the call
(18:04):
to because I won't admit it. Then after then he
hangs up. Then he walks out into the middle field
and says touchdown. Five or ten minutes later. And then
they said that they didn't look at replays, they didn't
do anything. So Marv Hubbard had a thing about that.
Marv Hubbard said, what the guy did as they thought
it was illegal and they wanted to the officials wanted
(18:28):
to get out of the joint. So the guy went
over and said, do you have a helicopter that can
get us out of here? And the guy said no.
He said, okay, touchdown Steelers. I don't know, but I
still don't know. No one knows of all the investigations
and investigative reporters. No one knows one who that guy
talked to and what was said on that telephone call.
And my whole point was not whether it was legal
(18:50):
or not, but if you didn't know when it happened,
how did you find out that it was a touchdown?
That's all I still asked that. That question has never
been answered to this day. You're gonna ask someone you
don't know one two seconds remaining and Bradshaw back and
looking again, Bradshaw running out of the pocket looking for
(19:10):
somebody to throw to, fires it downfield and there's a Collisian.
That's that's put out of the air. Football is pulled
in all Franko Hairs hairy Good touched down for Picksburgh
Harrisson boy, Franko Harris pulling the football. I don't even
know where cave from Kikell was in a Collisian. There
(19:33):
are people in the end zone. Where are the pun froll?
Absolutely unbelievable, Holy moly. Nine four playoff Raiders Dolphins, any recollection,
what your recollections of that? That game one I'll never
forget that was in Oakland and the Dolphins at that time.
(19:56):
You know, had that that hanky bit, you know, the
white handkerchief for you go down there and all wave
those handkerchiefs when it started. So the Raider fans are
however those things started, they were going to wave black
handkerchief and when we came out for that game, there
was more excitement in the stadium than I ever heard anywhere,
felt anywhere, and everyone had a black handkerchief and from
(20:18):
the pregame warm ups they were wired. In Oakland. They
were great fans. Anyway, they were really wired. This day.
We were playing the Dolphins and it was going to
be big. So anyway, our people are really excited. I'm excited,
the teams excited. We're gonna get him and all that stuff.
And we kick off, you know, the opening kickoff crescendo.
(20:39):
You know, they're like lap, we kicked the ball. They
get the ball and all the way back he runs,
I think it was not more ran it back a
hundred yards and now we're you know, black Sunday Raiders revenge.
Dolphins get them in Oakland fans, crazy team crazy good,
(21:01):
gonna do it. And the opening kickoff in our park
and they run it back all the way. So now
it's seven and nothing, you know, and the fans haven't
even sat down yet. I mean they haven't even you know,
got on there on the right number yet in their seats,
and we're down seven nothing. And so that was the
first thing I remember. There was an uphill battle, and
we fought it uphill all year. And then finally Stabler
(21:25):
through that pass at the end of the game to
Clarence Davis, which which worried me because it was a
It was a pass that we call fake trap bootleg.
We fake a trap into the middle of line and
the quarterback bootlegs and basically if they drop off to
cover the guy in the end zone who's the tight end,
then the quarterback can run it in. And if they
(21:47):
come up for the quarterback then the tight ends usually
wide open. He throws it. Well, somehow our tight end
was covered and didn't get off, and the quarterback was
rushed and he had nothing he finally found. I mean,
it was a bad play and and and there's a
color was run towards my side, and I could see
some bad things are happening to us because our quarterback
(22:09):
can't run it on. Our tight ends not open. And
the next thing I knew he threw a dart in there.
The Clarence Davis there he is baiting, looking, looking looking,
he's got the gun his body. It is what a
(22:40):
the other most memorable game or the ten greatest games,
it's the seventy seven playoff, the Raiders and the Cults.
And the question I want to ask you about that
is how come that you went for the touchdown at
that in that in the end of that game, rather
than maybe go for the field goal. I always thought
that's you know, that just made sense to me at
(23:01):
the time, and it still makes sense to me at
the time that if I go for the touchdown, if
I don't get it, I can kick the field goal.
I still have a chance. And so in other words,
I'm picking up two and what I tell my quarterback
is we throw it to the corner of the end
zone and I put it in a position way there
our guy gets it or it goes out of bounds.
(23:23):
I don't throw anything that can be intercepted. So we
take a shot at the touchdown. Then if we don't
get it, then we take a shot at the field goal. Now,
if you do it the opposite, you can't do it
the opposite. I can't take a shot at the field goal.
If I miss that, they get the ball. It doesn't
mean there's what down it is. I mean, if you
go for a field goal on second down and you
(23:44):
miss the field goal, they get the ball. So it's
always just made sense, you know, just the thing that
if I can get two chances, one the end zone
and a touchdown and then to the field goal, that
that ups my chances by winning the game. So a
lot of times you'll do that and you'll miss it
and kick the field goal and you're not even aware
(24:06):
that you do it. But I always believe that take
your shot, and then if you don't get that, then
take the shot at the field goal. But having more
than one shot. We had a famous picture of it
the game Ghost to the Post, and that was Tom
Flores made that call. We had. We had a play
we called nine one in and the flanker Z the
(24:27):
outside receiver runs an in pattern and one end, the
tight end runs a post and it's usually a clean out.
In other word, the tight end runs through deep uh,
you know, the deep part of his own defense or
the defense to take the safety out and then let
the the end come in. So Tom saw it and
(24:48):
uh saw that as we were bringing the flanker in,
which would have been blating call that that safety was
taken a peek at that and was letting Casper get
deeper by him. And Casper's name was the Ghost. So
Tom Flory's when we you know, when the defense was
on the field, was talking to Snake Stable on the
(25:11):
thing and he said, Snake, he said, he said somewhere.
He said, when you run ninety one in, he said,
take a peek at Ghost to the post. That's what
he said. So the stabler said, okay, so they run
ninety went in, he took a peek and and Ghost
was wide open and posing. Then that was a big
play that got us down there. And then we you know,
(25:33):
went on went up. Stable sends branch left, but letting
Coup to the right back again straight dropped back pumps.
Once he goes medium deep to chessper Casper breaks it
over the shoulder catch He's put from behind at the
fifteen yard line, a very very remarkable adjust. But as
Casper I think first turned the wrong way and managed
(25:54):
to run under that high lub to the deep part
of the defense. That was a great game, you know,
the the funny thing about that game, that Baltimore playoff
game is is it didn't get talked about. Is one
of the great I mean, if if it were a
Super Bowl, that game had been a Super Bowl would
be the greatest football game ever played. But the fact
(26:15):
that there was a playoff game, now you know they
were at it. We had to go play the championship
game the next week. No one talked about it. I remember,
and as I look back now, it's really sad. We
went off the field. We played six periods in that game,
and it was a tough game, and we went off
the field. You know what we did in the locker room.
We were watching the television of the next game, it
(26:38):
was Pittsburgh playing Denver, to find out who we were
going to play for the championship game the next week.
And we came in the locker room two minutes after
you know, we win. Well, I think is one of
the greatest games in history. We're watching the TV set
to see who we're gonna play next week. Yeah, the
game just kind of got lost. What about the story
a stable and that where he came over the sideline,
(26:58):
I pred you tell that story. Yeah, Well, just before
that play that you know, we won the game. I'm
stable came over and I was excited because we had gone,
you know, for six periods and we had things moving
and and I can see how we could put them away.
So I had all these ideas, you know, let's do this.
You'll go to that boom and he goes there, you
go there, we'll run with pastor fake what kick will do?
And I'm going on and on and I'm hiding for
(27:20):
an away hands they're going. So I'm facing the field
and Stabler's facing me, and he's listening. He has his
his helmet cocked up over his head and he has
one of those water things you squirt water into your mouth.
And I'll never looking. He's kind of looking around and
he said, he says, you know what, John the Boy says,
These fans are getting their money's worth today, aren't they.
(27:42):
As you don't worry about the fans. You get in there,
Let's get this game and then the next place through
a touchdown past the cast and we won the game.
The one game that did not get a name the
Raiders seventies six playoff game against the Patriots. Before there
was the tuck Rule game between New England and Oakland.
There was sugar Bear Hamilton's and the roughing the passer call.
(28:04):
To remind you, in the waning moments of that game,
Patriots lineman Ray sugar Bear Hamilton's was flagged for hitting
Ken Stabler in the head. The Raiders won. The next week,
they finally defeated the Steelers in the a f C
Championship game and then went on to win Super Bowl
nine over the Vikings Madden's Loan Championship. When we come back,
(28:27):
will here coaches thoughts on fellow Raiders legends, Ken Stabler, GANE. Upshaw,
and of course Al Davis. Stay tuned. Welcome back to
NFL Films Tales from the Vault. We've talked about the
games with names, but those seventies Raiders teams had characters
(28:50):
christened with memorable monikers. There was the Mad Stork, Ted
Hendricks two's John Mattuzak, Ghost Dave Casper, the Mad Bomber,
Darryl La Monica, and of course Snake Ken Stabler. Those
teams led by Mad and had this larger than life aura.
I mean, come on, they even had their own theme song.
(29:22):
So as we head back to the interview after taking
us through those memorable games. Steve talks to coach about
those memorable characters of the seventies, beginning with the Snake.
What kind of player was he? To coach? Well, he
was great because nothing bothered him and he um in
(29:43):
in those years. He had a great mind. He could
remember everything, he called his plays, called his own play
and uh, he didn't have any fear rushed and scare
and you know that's something a lot of people don't
talking about, but but but quarterbacks, most quarterbacks are really
scared to death, scared to death of the rush. And
(30:05):
he didn't have any fear. He wasn't afraid of him.
Remember when he just dared him, He just stood doing dared.
How about me? And I came at the same time
with the Raiders in nineteen sixty seven. He was a
number one draft choice and I was an assistant coach,
a linebacker coach. And he played longer than anchorn coach,
and he was he was really a you know, a
(30:28):
good leader and a good player and uh, you know,
and did everything and he all offensive lineman halt, you know,
but they don't all admit it. And I remember he
used to have trouble Pittsburgh stealers. He used to have
trouble with Ernie Holmes. So we're playing Pittsburgh one day
and we get a drive going and there's nothing. There's
(30:49):
no drive stop or worse than holding. So Upshaw gets
a holding penalty and that's fifteen yard penaltists and now
we come back, we end up, you know, like third
and thirty two were one of those things when you know,
what the heck do you call? Nothing's gonna work. So anyway,
so I'm mad when they come off with after the
punt and I'm getting on up show about holding. He said,
(31:10):
I didn't hold, and I said, and they said, went
to you see the film, so what can you say?
So I look at the film and not only did
he hold him, he just grabbed him and Ernie Holmes
got by him and he just grabbed him by the
jersey and tackled him with the other arm and and everything.
So he came in after. I was really mad at
you know, when they came back and I said, yes,
(31:31):
said I want to see you a minute. I said,
you told me you didn't hold. I says, you help
and he goes. You know, he was a smart you know,
as a politician. I mean, he's ahead of the players
union now. But he goes and i'm you know, you know,
and I said, I got it. I said to film
and said, you grabbed him. You do everything. I said,
that was I was hold I was ben he said.
(31:52):
He said, let me ask you a question. He says,
he says, you want a snake to get killed? And
I said, no, you know, I mean you know. He
didn't say, do you want, you know, the guy to
get by me? I mean, he says killed, Well, who
do you want to get killed? Heck? Now, I said,
now I don't want to. He said okay. So that's
why I hold him. He said he was gonna kill snake.
He said, if I don't grab him, he said, he
killed snake. He said, you don't want snake killed you?
(32:13):
And I said, oh, I don't want. He said okay,
then I had to hold him. So it said okay.
So he's out the door. So now he goes and
so all the players know that I had called him
and I was still mad. So now now he goes
out and he says what he said, what happened? He goes,
he tells all the lemon said, John said, it's okay
to hold it's okay for us to hold And it
(32:35):
took me like a month to get out of that thing.
Yeah that he was. You know, so you want someone
kill Holm. I don't want anyone to kill When we
got a hold off, the guy gets by it, so
we don't get killed. Yeah. But anyway, that's up shore.
Why is it that the Raiders have been so successful
for so many years? Is there a reason for that?
I think so I didn't get a good organization, and
(32:55):
I think basically knowing what they want. I remember Vince
Lombardi telling me that, as Convince Lombardi once what separates
And it seems like a simple thing, just knowing what
you want, to know what the end looks like. And
a lot of people don't know, but the Raiders know.
I mean, they know what they want in their players,
so that leads to the type of player they draft.
(33:16):
And you know, players have come and gone, and coaches
have come and gone, and the one thing that that
stays there is Al Davis. The fact that he knows
the way to win and what has to be done
and where you're going, and and that helps. And you'd
be surprised at the number of people don't know where
they're going with the end looks like I think that's
(33:39):
the big thing is just knowing knowing what they want.
What do you think is that there's the public's biggest
misconception of Al Davis that he's a bad guy. I mean,
Al Davis is Al Davis is a very complex man,
and he's a very he's a brilliant man, and he's
a good guy. And at anyone you see, when you
(34:02):
write about someone or you tell a story on radio
or television, everything has to be short or concise. So
when you tell a story about a person, you have
to simplify it to make it short or concise. And
Al Davis is a very complex man, and you can't
take a complex person and simplify it. And everyone tries
(34:26):
to simplify it and shorten it and say this is
what he is. And what they say is probably right,
but that's only one very little part of what he is.
And they've never gotten a hall and h I mean
I think that you know, just things like if someone
we're in trouble anywhere, and someone were in trouble, of
(34:50):
someone were sick in this league, at any level, any person,
And he said to me, who would be the first
guy there to help us be Al Davis. But that
part of as never I mean, it may be as
an AFT, but that's not a part. But he would do.
Madden said, you can't simplify a complex man like Al Davis,
but I can try to simplify John Madden. When I
(35:12):
tell you that he was kind, and I speak from
personal experience, let me quickly tell you about two calls
I got from coach in the first was when I
received the Pete Roselle Award from the Pro Football Hall
of Fame and coach call to congratulate me and just
tell me how proud he was of me. And then
a few months later, as I was about to become
(35:34):
the first full time female NFL game analyst commentating Thursday
night football on Prime Video, John Madden called me and said,
how are you doing. I'm so proud of you. I
had no idea about this, and I told him, Coach,
I'm pretty nervous, and John Madden said to me, don't
feel like you have to cram for the test. You've
(35:56):
been preparing for this your entire career. I exhaled and
my anxiety level amped down a little bit. But let
me tell you when John Madden tells you something. You
better listen and learn from that, and I am forever
grateful for coaches support, especially in that moment of high anxiety.
(36:17):
But before we go, here's one less clip from my
interview that I did with coach, one final bit of
insight into what made him special. I'd like to finish
up by talking about you for a minute as coach.
What was your greatest asset? Would you say? I don't know.
I never evaluated that. I I don't know. I don't
(36:40):
even know if I had an asset. I mean, I
was just a guy coaching. I never I never thought
about those things. I really haven't. I was just kind
of a working guy who went to work and tried
to be the same every day. I mean, I tried
to to treat everyone with respect and treat him the same.
That's the legendary John Madden. Just a guy coaching, selling, creating,
(37:03):
making history. Coach, rest in peace. You are deeply missed.
Next week, we're gonna bring you one of John Madden's
favorite players. Well, to be more accurate NFL players to
be we opened up the Peyton Manning wing of the
NFL Films Vault and found a nine interview that Steve
(37:25):
did with Peyton when he was in his final season
at the University of Tennessee. Sitting alongside his dad Archie,
talk about a time capsule. I hope you'll join us.
Thanks for listening. I'm Andrea Kramer.
Welcome to NFL Films Tales from the Vault. I'm your host,
Andrea Kramer. In four, I started my Hall of Fame
career at NFL Films as a producer, and Steve Sable
was my boss. Steve was a creative genius, a brilliant cinematographer.
And by now, if you've listened to this podcast, you
(00:25):
know he's an expert interviewer. And by the way, if
you haven't been listening, where the heck have you been?
But look, this podcast showcases some of the greatest interviews
that Steve Sable ever did, raw unedited conversations, none of
which have ever been heard before in their entirety. My role, well,
I'm here to guide you through them, providing context, insight,
(00:48):
and share some of my own experiences along the way.
Today we head to the Vault for a very special interview,
Steve Sables six conversation with the late eight John Madden.
(01:16):
In six, John Madden was eight years into his broadcasting
career with CBS, established as the top announcer in the NFL,
already a commercial sensation, but not yet a video game icon. Now,
remember how I mentioned that I'm going to share some
of my own experiences with you in this podcast. Well,
(01:37):
this one is particularly special to me because I got
to work with Coach and yes, that's what we all
called him. I worked with Coach over the course of
my thirty plus year career, including three years together on
NBC's Sunday Night Football. But when I'm starting out as
a producer turned reporter at NFL Films, there was a
memorable interview that I did with Coach Madden back. So
(02:01):
we're happy to bring you some extra Madden bonus content.
How do you reconcile that the Raiders have a dirty label? Well?
I think that was you know, that was good. I
you know, that was something that we never fought. I
think part of that went with Oakland, the Colosseum, the
silver and black, the helmets, you know, the whole thing,
(02:24):
And that's what your persona becomes, and it's going to
be that. So why not capitalize and say, Okay, yeah,
people believe that. Yeah, I mean they want to say
the Raiders are dirty. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, we're dirty. What
are you gonna do about? Boy? You really miss that
kind of honesty in today's media landscape. But I remember
(02:44):
there was a quote at the end of the interview
that I loved, where Coach was talking about not getting
his players too hyped up before a game. It's better
to hear it from his mouth, not just my paraphrase.
I am so hyper. I'm going to get them all hyper.
They're gonna go out there expending too much nervous energy before.
I mean, you know, you you don't let out your host,
(03:07):
tell you know where the fire is. And I I
didn't want them to be letting out their host two
hours before. You know, we didn't get to the fire yet.
Coach certainly had a way with words, metaphors, and imagery.
But today's podcast features the interview that Steve did with
John Madden back in six. He asks him about all
(03:27):
those famous Raiders plays, including the Holy Roller, the Immaculate Reception,
the Sea of Hands. But Steve also talks to Coach
about Raiders legends like Al Davis, Kenny Stabler, and Geane Upshaw.
But he starts off asking Madden a philosophical question, because
who better to discuss football philosophy with than John Madden?
And again this has a unique connection to yours truly.
(03:51):
In six I was a writer and editor on a
show called Autumn Ritual, it's like a cult film, and
to this day it remains one of the most influential
and meaningful productions of my career. The show examined the
essence of football from a viewpoint outside the arena, and
there were voices of a lot of non football types
(04:12):
of a poet, musician, dancer, politician, writers, but they also
needed some football people in the show too. And even
though John Madden was more famously known for his bluster
and emotional reactions, he was also extremely thoughtful and of
course a master full storyteller. So that's where we start
(04:34):
off as we head to the vault for Steve Sable
and John Madden. John, we're doing a program fulled on
of ritual and we're using a lot of theologians and
sociologists and anthropologists me of Andy Warhol and Norman Mailor
and Parisha and everybody's giving their questions of pro football.
And one anthropologists we interviews talked about the condition that
a Gloria would have to get in before he would
(04:54):
go on a hunter in the battle, and and and
and making a correlation between the mental state it's it's
necessary to play professional football, relating that to going in
the war to combat. You think that that's a valid Yeah,
I think that's something. I think that that's something in
every athlete and every sport worries about, or at least
in the combative sports, that you don't go around hitting
(05:18):
and being aggressive and being hit. But at the moment
when someone rings a bell or blows the whistle, you
have to kick that attitude in, and you hope that
it always does because you can't test it, you know.
I mean a fighter he's going to fight on Friday night.
He can't go around on Thursday night to see if
(05:39):
it's there because he's not fighting Thursday night. And you
don't go around because it's not natural a lot of
things that you do in contact. So you hope that
whatever it is, that when you're ready to play the game,
that it kicks in. And sometimes it doesn't, and you know,
and sometimes they just can't get it, and that's where
where a guy gets scared, and that's usually when they
(06:01):
start getting out of the game. It's a very dangerous
thing that there's an attitude. It's a different thing, it's
a different personality, and when you walk onto that field
or across that line, it has to kick in because
it's not always. There is there anything that you could
do for that, John, No, there's nothing, because it's not
(06:22):
something that's manufactured. It's something that has to be And
if it's not there, there's nothing you can do about it.
There's nothing you can do. I mean, if it doesn't
come in, If it doesn't you know, if it's just
you know, part of an attitude or a guy you know,
you can you could get them upset and get them
upset with you. And and maybe but that attitude of
(06:43):
of where hitting is fun and hitting feels good and
being hit feels good. I mean, you get to that,
but it's not natural and it doesn't come naturally. You
just hope that it comes you. You ask any player
you know, you can talk about before what they do
and going into what they do, but you ask them
about watching films and they don't know it. They don't know.
(07:04):
I mean, they don't know that they're doing for the
watching the film and that that thing that has to
kick in is that attitude to getting hit doesn't hurt,
and it really doesn't at that time, it doesn't hurt.
I mean, I mean, you watch a boxing matter, I
mean how those guys take those punches and they don't hurt,
but whatever that is, it's there. And the football player,
(07:25):
I mean, the guy runs and he gets those collisions,
you know, and gets hit and spun around and knocked
back and head and and it just gets up and
walks back and and it doesn't hurt, but it would
hurt the next day. And then they watch film they
don't even know what happened to him. One of the
most publicized things about about yourself is why you quit coaching,
(07:46):
But to go back and do it, to do a
feature on yourself, what did you enjoy most about coaching?
That's something I enjoyed most. I enjoyed the games. That
was a fun I mean, if there's anything I missed,
it was a guy I didn't And then take everything back,
you know from that is was you know, gets to
be non enjoyable. And I enjoyed the games on Sunday
(08:09):
and the big games. You know where you were going
and you know you're going in and playing the Pittsburgh
Steelers in Pittsburgh. I loved it, you know. But in
the years, one day I was Kansas City, you know,
in Kansas City or even Oakland or Miami. You know,
the big games are traditional ones a rivalry run we
had it with the Jets, you know we name with
(08:30):
those are fun. I mean that was really fun. That
was really fun. And then the other games, I like
the other games other stuff you just get tired of it.
I mean things like you know, practice and meetings and
watching film and the draft and you know, media and
all that stuff. The games were always fun. How would
(08:52):
you react to the state. And there's a famous sports
psychologist that that did an analysis of successful football coaches
and he said that when you look at the mental
profile of a successful football coach, you're not necessarily looking
at the profile of an entirely healthy person. Do you
think there's something to say in relating it to your
to your own experience, Yeah, you know, I mean as myself.
(09:14):
I mean, if they're talking about me, I would agree
with that. I I look at at Don Shula and
Tom Landry and Chuck and all, and I'm marveled with them.
I really do. I mean, because they've done it, they've
done it well, and they've done it over a long
period of time and I have no idea how they
and I think that they're well, I mean I think
(09:34):
that they are. I would uh, you know, I mean
the things that you do. You drive yourself a lot
of a superstition, you know, I mean a lot of
It starts with we win a big game against Kansas
City on Wednesday night. We worked on our offensive game plan.
We finished it. We worked until two in the morning.
Now next now you beat Kansas City. So now it's
(09:55):
next week and it's one o'clock in the morning. You say, well,
we're tired. How to go home? He said, well, last
week we worked until two and we had a good
game plan. So you stay until too. You do something,
and then you want to do it better, so better
things longer, and pretty soon you're putting in such long
hours that you get to vegetate and it's not right,
(10:18):
and you build up a lot of things you believe
that has to be done and you and if you
do them then they're really taking everything out of you.
And if you don't do them, then you feel guilty
for not doing them. I want to change the trying
to with yourself. We have so many great shots of
you on the sidelines and emotionally where you think that
that was a lot of people would say, well, how
(10:40):
can you think clearly like that? The coach is always
going to be the placid, you know, was that something
that was that you felt was a drawback in your building. No,
I I could always think. I mean, the thing that
I had the ability to do was get mad. But
what I was doing was just reacting to what happened
at the moment. But then that reaction would go away
(11:02):
and and I would I could always think the next thing.
I was always thinking ahead anyway, and uh, and some
of the things that I did were just reactions, but
they were reactions that didn't last for a long time.
I mean, I mean I still do that. I've always
been there. I mean, I can get mad at someone,
but I don't stay mad. I mean, I can get
real mad right now, and then five seconds later, I'm
(11:25):
not mad anymore. But I've always when it comes, I've
always let it go out, you know, not not hold
it in. And that was the way that I coached.
And I didn't do it. I mean I didn't know that.
I do you know. I'm talking about players and seeing
themselves in films. I used to see pictures of myself.
I believe that I didn't do that. I mean, I
couldn't have done that. I don't remember doing that. I
(11:47):
didn't think about it. I didn't, you know, premeditate that
I was going to do. It just came out as
a reaction. But it was a quick reaction. Then it
would be over and then it would be on to
the next thing. There were a couple of things, as
the coach said, that really resonated for me. Remember, Madden
never had a losing season as a head coach. He
lasted ten years. In fact, he felt that was the
(12:09):
expiration date for a head coach. So it's interesting to
hear him Laude Don Shula, Tom Landry, and Chuck nol
for coaching over a long period of time. And then
there were some things that he said that carry over
directly from coaching to broadcasting. For example, he talked about
how he enjoyed the games, especially the rivalry ones, but
(12:32):
he also mentioned practice meetings and watching film, things that
he added to the preparation process for his broadcast that
were never done before. We would watch film on Friday afternoons,
conduct production meetings with players and coaches, and of course
go to the home team's practice. And then there was
what Madden said about always thinking ahead and having a
(12:55):
quick reaction qualities that helped him as a head coach,
but also to excel as an analyst. When we come back,
Madden recalls some of the most famous games in Raiders history,
including his conspiracy theory on the Immaculate Reception. Welcome back
to Tales from the Vault. You know, they just don't
(13:18):
make games with names like they used to. I mean,
we just had that incredible Kansas City Buffalo divisional playoff
game and they're calling it the Second Game. I mean,
come on, that is not a nickname commensurate with this
kind of instant classic. I mean games with names defined
the seventies. What do I mean? Well, think of the
(13:41):
Holy Roller, the Immaculate Reception, the sea of hands that
goes to the post. And what's one thing all those
games had in common, John Madden and the Oakland Raiders.
One of the most memorable moments in NFL history and
the Holy Roller. Is there anything that you remember when
I just mentioned that to you about that play? Yeah.
(14:02):
The big thing about that play is is just before
the play, we had a time out, which was our
last time out, and Ken Stabler came over to the
sideline and we talked about the play the past that
we were going to call the play. We were going
to run. And after that, the last thing I remember
telling him is, look, we don't have any more time outs,
(14:24):
so you can't take a sack. You have to get
rid of ball. Said, no matter what happened, if there's
nothing open, throw the ball away, get rid of the ball.
You can't take the sack because there's no time I
had to save it. So then of course he started
to play. The rush came upon him. He knew that
he couldn't take the sack because if it took the
sack to games over, there's no time out. So he
(14:45):
started to take the sack. And then remember he couldn't
take a sack, so he just put the ball down
and then guys kept picking it up and running it
in And the next thing I know was a touching.
Now ten seconds lapt Oakland trio took fourteen. The crowd
takes up a chat of defense. Robisky and Banazak are
the back slot right, ranch inside table back, It comes around,
(15:09):
she side steps, can you fall? He can't? The ball
flip falling, as well as a while scramble two second
one o'clock Casper grabbing a ball get his roll of
crumble cast bars by covered in the end zone, hilts
and raids of start on the most sceny, unbelievable, absolutely
impossible dream of a play. Stabberd while being hit the
(15:33):
ball squirted forward. Madden is on the field. He wants
to know if it's real. They said, yes, get your
big butt out of here. He does. What was your
reaction to it? Did you think it was? Did you
celebrate right away? No? I didn't know. I mean I
I didn't know. I mean I saw the ball down
and I knew. I knew the time that if if
(15:55):
we recovered whoever got the ball before it went in
the end zone, if anyone did, the game's over because
there's no time. And uh so I'm just hoping that
that it just keeps on going, that it never gets over.
And then finally when Casper falls on and I know
he's in the end zone, I know that if they
rule everything else legal, that it's a touchdown. So I
(16:17):
didn't know it was a touchdown. So I was running
out to find out one if it was a touchdown,
and two if they said it wasn't, I was going
to argue the case whatever reason I could think of
quickly that it was. There's nothing real in the world anymore.
The Raiders won the football game. The Chargers are standing
looking at each other, looking at the sky. They don't
(16:39):
believe it. Nobody believes it. I don't know if the
Raiders believe it. It's not real. A man would be
a fool. Who ever tried and write a drama and
make you believe it, This one will be relieved. Whoever.
The other play that you were involved in, and you
told me once several years ago, you're interesting story about
the immaculate reception, about what up and after the play. Well,
(17:01):
the thing about about that play that bothered me then
bothers me today and will bother me until the day
I die, is that in the history of football, when
a guy crosses a goal line, it's either a touchdown
or it's not. This time they had the whole thing.
Franco Harris runs in. They didn't call a touchdown. They
(17:23):
didn't know if it was a touchdown. Now they all
went out and they had their little meeting. And I
went out and I was part of the meeting. And
it was at three River Stadium in Pittsburgh, and everyone
else was out there in the field and they said, getaway.
We don't know what happened. And I knew that they
didn't know what happened, and I was out there to
tell him what happened because they didn't know, and I
(17:44):
may as well put in my length so anyway, so
now they don't know. So now the referee leaves that huddle,
which was in the end zone, and he goes over
to the dugout on the Pittsburgh Steeler side and he
gets on the phone and he makes a call to someone.
And I still don't know who we made the call
(18:04):
to because I won't admit it. Then after then he
hangs up. Then he walks out into the middle field
and says touchdown. Five or ten minutes later. And then
they said that they didn't look at replays, they didn't
do anything. So Marv Hubbard had a thing about that.
Marv Hubbard said, what the guy did as they thought
it was illegal and they wanted to the officials wanted
(18:28):
to get out of the joint. So the guy went
over and said, do you have a helicopter that can
get us out of here? And the guy said no.
He said, okay, touchdown Steelers. I don't know, but I
still don't know. No one knows of all the investigations
and investigative reporters. No one knows one who that guy
talked to and what was said on that telephone call.
And my whole point was not whether it was legal
(18:50):
or not, but if you didn't know when it happened,
how did you find out that it was a touchdown?
That's all I still asked that. That question has never
been answered to this day. You're gonna ask someone you
don't know one two seconds remaining and Bradshaw back and
looking again, Bradshaw running out of the pocket looking for
(19:10):
somebody to throw to, fires it downfield and there's a Collisian.
That's that's put out of the air. Football is pulled
in all Franko Hairs hairy Good touched down for Picksburgh
Harrisson boy, Franko Harris pulling the football. I don't even
know where cave from Kikell was in a Collisian. There
(19:33):
are people in the end zone. Where are the pun froll?
Absolutely unbelievable, Holy moly. Nine four playoff Raiders Dolphins, any recollection,
what your recollections of that? That game one I'll never
forget that was in Oakland and the Dolphins at that time.
(19:56):
You know, had that that hanky bit, you know, the
white handkerchief for you go down there and all wave
those handkerchiefs when it started. So the Raider fans are
however those things started, they were going to wave black
handkerchief and when we came out for that game, there
was more excitement in the stadium than I ever heard anywhere,
felt anywhere, and everyone had a black handkerchief and from
(20:18):
the pregame warm ups they were wired. In Oakland. They
were great fans. Anyway, they were really wired. This day.
We were playing the Dolphins and it was going to
be big. So anyway, our people are really excited. I'm excited,
the teams excited. We're gonna get him and all that stuff.
And we kick off, you know, the opening kickoff crescendo.
(20:39):
You know, they're like lap, we kicked the ball. They
get the ball and all the way back he runs,
I think it was not more ran it back a
hundred yards and now we're you know, black Sunday Raiders revenge.
Dolphins get them in Oakland fans, crazy team crazy good,
(21:01):
gonna do it. And the opening kickoff in our park
and they run it back all the way. So now
it's seven and nothing, you know, and the fans haven't
even sat down yet. I mean they haven't even you know,
got on there on the right number yet in their seats,
and we're down seven nothing. And so that was the
first thing I remember. There was an uphill battle, and
we fought it uphill all year. And then finally Stabler
(21:25):
through that pass at the end of the game to
Clarence Davis, which which worried me because it was a
It was a pass that we call fake trap bootleg.
We fake a trap into the middle of line and
the quarterback bootlegs and basically if they drop off to
cover the guy in the end zone who's the tight end,
then the quarterback can run it in. And if they
(21:47):
come up for the quarterback then the tight ends usually
wide open. He throws it. Well, somehow our tight end
was covered and didn't get off, and the quarterback was
rushed and he had nothing he finally found. I mean,
it was a bad play and and and there's a
color was run towards my side, and I could see
some bad things are happening to us because our quarterback
(22:09):
can't run it on. Our tight ends not open. And
the next thing I knew he threw a dart in there.
The Clarence Davis there he is baiting, looking, looking looking,
he's got the gun his body. It is what a
(22:40):
the other most memorable game or the ten greatest games,
it's the seventy seven playoff, the Raiders and the Cults.
And the question I want to ask you about that
is how come that you went for the touchdown at
that in that in the end of that game, rather
than maybe go for the field goal. I always thought
that's you know, that just made sense to me at
(23:01):
the time, and it still makes sense to me at
the time that if I go for the touchdown, if
I don't get it, I can kick the field goal.
I still have a chance. And so in other words,
I'm picking up two and what I tell my quarterback
is we throw it to the corner of the end
zone and I put it in a position way there
our guy gets it or it goes out of bounds.
(23:23):
I don't throw anything that can be intercepted. So we
take a shot at the touchdown. Then if we don't
get it, then we take a shot at the field goal. Now,
if you do it the opposite, you can't do it
the opposite. I can't take a shot at the field goal.
If I miss that, they get the ball. It doesn't
mean there's what down it is. I mean, if you
go for a field goal on second down and you
(23:44):
miss the field goal, they get the ball. So it's
always just made sense, you know, just the thing that
if I can get two chances, one the end zone
and a touchdown and then to the field goal, that
that ups my chances by winning the game. So a
lot of times you'll do that and you'll miss it
and kick the field goal and you're not even aware
(24:06):
that you do it. But I always believe that take
your shot, and then if you don't get that, then
take the shot at the field goal. But having more
than one shot. We had a famous picture of it
the game Ghost to the Post, and that was Tom
Flores made that call. We had. We had a play
we called nine one in and the flanker Z the
(24:27):
outside receiver runs an in pattern and one end, the
tight end runs a post and it's usually a clean out.
In other word, the tight end runs through deep uh,
you know, the deep part of his own defense or
the defense to take the safety out and then let
the the end come in. So Tom saw it and
(24:48):
uh saw that as we were bringing the flanker in,
which would have been blating call that that safety was
taken a peek at that and was letting Casper get
deeper by him. And Casper's name was the Ghost. So
Tom Flory's when we you know, when the defense was
on the field, was talking to Snake Stable on the
(25:11):
thing and he said, Snake, he said, he said somewhere.
He said, when you run ninety one in, he said,
take a peek at Ghost to the post. That's what
he said. So the stabler said, okay, so they run
ninety went in, he took a peek and and Ghost
was wide open and posing. Then that was a big
play that got us down there. And then we you know,
(25:33):
went on went up. Stable sends branch left, but letting
Coup to the right back again straight dropped back pumps.
Once he goes medium deep to chessper Casper breaks it
over the shoulder catch He's put from behind at the
fifteen yard line, a very very remarkable adjust. But as
Casper I think first turned the wrong way and managed
(25:54):
to run under that high lub to the deep part
of the defense. That was a great game, you know,
the the funny thing about that game, that Baltimore playoff
game is is it didn't get talked about. Is one
of the great I mean, if if it were a
Super Bowl, that game had been a Super Bowl would
be the greatest football game ever played. But the fact
(26:15):
that there was a playoff game, now you know they
were at it. We had to go play the championship
game the next week. No one talked about it. I remember,
and as I look back now, it's really sad. We
went off the field. We played six periods in that game,
and it was a tough game, and we went off
the field. You know what we did in the locker room.
We were watching the television of the next game, it
(26:38):
was Pittsburgh playing Denver, to find out who we were
going to play for the championship game the next week.
And we came in the locker room two minutes after
you know, we win. Well, I think is one of
the greatest games in history. We're watching the TV set
to see who we're gonna play next week. Yeah, the
game just kind of got lost. What about the story
a stable and that where he came over the sideline,
(26:58):
I pred you tell that story. Yeah, Well, just before
that play that you know, we won the game. I'm
stable came over and I was excited because we had gone,
you know, for six periods and we had things moving
and and I can see how we could put them away.
So I had all these ideas, you know, let's do this.
You'll go to that boom and he goes there, you
go there, we'll run with pastor fake what kick will do?
And I'm going on and on and I'm hiding for
(27:20):
an away hands they're going. So I'm facing the field
and Stabler's facing me, and he's listening. He has his
his helmet cocked up over his head and he has
one of those water things you squirt water into your mouth.
And I'll never looking. He's kind of looking around and
he said, he says, you know what, John the Boy says,
These fans are getting their money's worth today, aren't they.
(27:42):
As you don't worry about the fans. You get in there,
Let's get this game and then the next place through
a touchdown past the cast and we won the game.
The one game that did not get a name the
Raiders seventies six playoff game against the Patriots. Before there
was the tuck Rule game between New England and Oakland.
There was sugar Bear Hamilton's and the roughing the passer call.
(28:04):
To remind you, in the waning moments of that game,
Patriots lineman Ray sugar Bear Hamilton's was flagged for hitting
Ken Stabler in the head. The Raiders won. The next week,
they finally defeated the Steelers in the a f C
Championship game and then went on to win Super Bowl
nine over the Vikings Madden's Loan Championship. When we come back,
(28:27):
will here coaches thoughts on fellow Raiders legends, Ken Stabler, GANE. Upshaw,
and of course Al Davis. Stay tuned. Welcome back to
NFL Films Tales from the Vault. We've talked about the
games with names, but those seventies Raiders teams had characters
(28:50):
christened with memorable monikers. There was the Mad Stork, Ted
Hendricks two's John Mattuzak, Ghost Dave Casper, the Mad Bomber,
Darryl La Monica, and of course Snake Ken Stabler. Those
teams led by Mad and had this larger than life aura.
I mean, come on, they even had their own theme song.
(29:22):
So as we head back to the interview after taking
us through those memorable games. Steve talks to coach about
those memorable characters of the seventies, beginning with the Snake.
What kind of player was he? To coach? Well, he
was great because nothing bothered him and he um in
(29:43):
in those years. He had a great mind. He could
remember everything, he called his plays, called his own play
and uh, he didn't have any fear rushed and scare
and you know that's something a lot of people don't
talking about, but but but quarterbacks, most quarterbacks are really
scared to death, scared to death of the rush. And
(30:05):
he didn't have any fear. He wasn't afraid of him.
Remember when he just dared him, He just stood doing dared.
How about me? And I came at the same time
with the Raiders in nineteen sixty seven. He was a
number one draft choice and I was an assistant coach,
a linebacker coach. And he played longer than anchorn coach,
and he was he was really a you know, a
(30:28):
good leader and a good player and uh, you know,
and did everything and he all offensive lineman halt, you know,
but they don't all admit it. And I remember he
used to have trouble Pittsburgh stealers. He used to have
trouble with Ernie Holmes. So we're playing Pittsburgh one day
and we get a drive going and there's nothing. There's
(30:49):
no drive stop or worse than holding. So Upshaw gets
a holding penalty and that's fifteen yard penaltists and now
we come back, we end up, you know, like third
and thirty two were one of those things when you know,
what the heck do you call? Nothing's gonna work. So anyway,
so I'm mad when they come off with after the
punt and I'm getting on up show about holding. He said,
(31:10):
I didn't hold, and I said, and they said, went
to you see the film, so what can you say?
So I look at the film and not only did
he hold him, he just grabbed him and Ernie Holmes
got by him and he just grabbed him by the
jersey and tackled him with the other arm and and everything.
So he came in after. I was really mad at
you know, when they came back and I said, yes,
(31:31):
said I want to see you a minute. I said,
you told me you didn't hold. I says, you help
and he goes. You know, he was a smart you know,
as a politician. I mean, he's ahead of the players
union now. But he goes and i'm you know, you know,
and I said, I got it. I said to film
and said, you grabbed him. You do everything. I said,
that was I was hold I was ben he said.
(31:52):
He said, let me ask you a question. He says,
he says, you want a snake to get killed? And
I said, no, you know, I mean you know. He
didn't say, do you want, you know, the guy to
get by me? I mean, he says killed, Well, who
do you want to get killed? Heck? Now, I said,
now I don't want to. He said okay. So that's
why I hold him. He said he was gonna kill snake.
He said, if I don't grab him, he said, he
killed snake. He said, you don't want snake killed you?
(32:13):
And I said, oh, I don't want. He said okay,
then I had to hold him. So it said okay.
So he's out the door. So now he goes and
so all the players know that I had called him
and I was still mad. So now now he goes
out and he says what he said, what happened? He goes,
he tells all the lemon said, John said, it's okay
to hold it's okay for us to hold And it
(32:35):
took me like a month to get out of that thing.
Yeah that he was. You know, so you want someone
kill Holm. I don't want anyone to kill When we
got a hold off, the guy gets by it, so
we don't get killed. Yeah. But anyway, that's up shore.
Why is it that the Raiders have been so successful
for so many years? Is there a reason for that?
I think so I didn't get a good organization, and
(32:55):
I think basically knowing what they want. I remember Vince
Lombardi telling me that, as Convince Lombardi once what separates
And it seems like a simple thing, just knowing what
you want, to know what the end looks like. And
a lot of people don't know, but the Raiders know.
I mean, they know what they want in their players,
so that leads to the type of player they draft.
(33:16):
And you know, players have come and gone, and coaches
have come and gone, and the one thing that that
stays there is Al Davis. The fact that he knows
the way to win and what has to be done
and where you're going, and and that helps. And you'd
be surprised at the number of people don't know where
they're going with the end looks like I think that's
(33:39):
the big thing is just knowing knowing what they want.
What do you think is that there's the public's biggest
misconception of Al Davis that he's a bad guy. I mean,
Al Davis is Al Davis is a very complex man,
and he's a very he's a brilliant man, and he's
a good guy. And at anyone you see, when you
(34:02):
write about someone or you tell a story on radio
or television, everything has to be short or concise. So
when you tell a story about a person, you have
to simplify it to make it short or concise. And
Al Davis is a very complex man, and you can't
take a complex person and simplify it. And everyone tries
(34:26):
to simplify it and shorten it and say this is
what he is. And what they say is probably right,
but that's only one very little part of what he is.
And they've never gotten a hall and h I mean
I think that you know, just things like if someone
we're in trouble anywhere, and someone were in trouble, of
(34:50):
someone were sick in this league, at any level, any person,
And he said to me, who would be the first
guy there to help us be Al Davis. But that
part of as never I mean, it may be as
an AFT, but that's not a part. But he would do.
Madden said, you can't simplify a complex man like Al Davis,
but I can try to simplify John Madden. When I
(35:12):
tell you that he was kind, and I speak from
personal experience, let me quickly tell you about two calls
I got from coach in the first was when I
received the Pete Roselle Award from the Pro Football Hall
of Fame and coach call to congratulate me and just
tell me how proud he was of me. And then
a few months later, as I was about to become
(35:34):
the first full time female NFL game analyst commentating Thursday
night football on Prime Video, John Madden called me and said,
how are you doing. I'm so proud of you. I
had no idea about this, and I told him, Coach,
I'm pretty nervous, and John Madden said to me, don't
feel like you have to cram for the test. You've
(35:56):
been preparing for this your entire career. I exhaled and
my anxiety level amped down a little bit. But let
me tell you when John Madden tells you something. You
better listen and learn from that, and I am forever
grateful for coaches support, especially in that moment of high anxiety.
(36:17):
But before we go, here's one less clip from my
interview that I did with coach, one final bit of
insight into what made him special. I'd like to finish
up by talking about you for a minute as coach.
What was your greatest asset? Would you say? I don't know.
I never evaluated that. I I don't know. I don't
(36:40):
even know if I had an asset. I mean, I
was just a guy coaching. I never I never thought
about those things. I really haven't. I was just kind
of a working guy who went to work and tried
to be the same every day. I mean, I tried
to to treat everyone with respect and treat him the same.
That's the legendary John Madden. Just a guy coaching, selling, creating,
(37:03):
making history. Coach, rest in peace. You are deeply missed.
Next week, we're gonna bring you one of John Madden's
favorite players. Well, to be more accurate NFL players to
be we opened up the Peyton Manning wing of the
NFL Films Vault and found a nine interview that Steve
(37:25):
did with Peyton when he was in his final season
at the University of Tennessee. Sitting alongside his dad Archie,
talk about a time capsule. I hope you'll join us.
Thanks for listening. I'm Andrea Kramer.
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