February 2, 2022 • 35 mins
Host Andrea Kremer takes us back to 1999 when NFL Films Steve Sabol interviewed Hall of Famer Jim Brown. In Part 2 of the interview, we dive deeper in Jim's life as an athlete, actor, and activist. Jim talks about his friendships with sometimes controversial figures and his admiration for them not following the status quo. Foreshadowing current events, Jim reflected on his respect for the Country and the National Anthem that played before every game. Jim explains how he believes sports can exploit athletes and ultimately divert an athlete's impact and resources away from the very problems they should be helping with. On a lighter note, Jim transitions to his acting career and discusses his historic love scene with Raquel Welch. Jim wraps up with his love of football and why he decided to retire after nine seasons.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to NFL Films Tales from the Vault, a weekly
podcast where we take a trip into one of the biggest,
coolest time capsules in the world, the NFL Films Vault.
I'm your host, Andrea Kramer. I was hired as NFL
films first female Well back then we were called producer, director, writer, editors,
(00:25):
and I had the pleasure of working for and learning
from the late President of NFL Films, Steve Sable. Steve
wore many hats, but perhaps one of his greatest skills
was connecting with people, getting them to open up and
with a creative and informed line of questioning, allowing listeners
to learn more about the greatest characters in the history
(00:47):
of the NFL. Today we have part two of Steve's
epic interview with Jim Brown. Ye Steve sat down with
(01:10):
Jim Brown at his home in Los Angeles for an
NFL Film show which recognized Brown as the player of
the millennium. The two of them covered a wide range
of topics and the interview was so compelling and lengthy
that we had to split it up into two parts.
Part one and if you haven't listened to that one yet,
try to try to go back and do so well.
(01:30):
It mostly consisted of delving into Jim's playing career and
what made him the player of the millennium. In this episode,
will here Brown's reason for retiring his thoughts about the
national anthem, which, considering this interview took place over twenty
years ago, is eerily relevant and foreshadowing. We have a
deep dive into the issues that really define who Jim
(01:53):
Brown was and continues to be the template for the athlete, actor, activist.
But we're going to start off at the movies because
I have to tell you our producer, Chips Wayne, found
something in the vault that is so amazing to me
that I just think we have to hear more about it.
So you know that movie from One Night in Miami,
(02:17):
which was nominated for three Oscars, Well, it's a fictional
account of a real event that took place in nine
when Muhammad Ali, Jim Brown, Malcolm X, and Sam Cook
all gathered in a hotel room in Miami following Ali,
who was then known as Cassius Clay Ali's championship fight
(02:38):
against Senny Liston. Well, that movie was fiction, But we
start today's episode with Jim Brown's account of what really
happened that night. This is fascinating, folks. You were with
Muhammad Ali after he beat Sonny Listen in Florida. What
was that scene like in the locker room? I mean
after after he won the fight. Well, the scene was
actually in a little black motel at that he wanted
(03:00):
to fight. Because they came right back to the motel,
Malcolm X was there. The great thing about that is
I was the only person with Ali in the back
bedroom after that fight. He talked to me for about
two hours about Elijah Mohammad and about his life and
about things, and Malcolm and Muslim ministers were out in
(03:21):
the living room pot and finally when we came out, well,
I wanted him to go over to Found Lucas. That's
where all the girls were, you know, I mean, let's
go party. But he wanted to be in a little
black motel. And he got out, came out, and Malcolm said,
brother Ali, now that you've got the championship, don't you
think you don't have to speak as much, that you
don't have to talk as loud anymore. Don't you think
(03:42):
it would be a good idea? And all he didn't
say anything, said Brother Brown don't you think it'd be
a good as Yeah, I think, But Ali had told
me that he was leaving Malcolm and not gonna deal
with Malcolm. That Malcolm was splitting with the Nation Islam.
He's gonna go with the Elijah Mohammed because Elijah Maham
was a strong one and he was not going to
be a friend of Malcolm's anymore. So that was the
(04:03):
impactful part of what happened at that fight. We never
did talk about the fight because Ali was serious about
his movement and the nation and all of that, so
and I was serious about being black and all of that.
So we were really about the politics. What were you
telling Muhammad at the time. At the time, Well, basically
(04:24):
I was dealing with the business aspect of being the
heavyweight champion and how you control your economics and uh.
Also at that time, every black person I knew was
conscious of the movement, you know, freeom, e quality and justice,
so we're always talking about how to achieve that, and
(04:47):
uh he was going to do about being a Muslim.
I thought the economic route was the route. So that
was the tenor of a conversation Malcolm X. Your relationship
with him, evaluation him his place in history. For Malcolm,
placent histories already there. I can't shape that people rediscovered
him and gave him a lot of credit for his
(05:10):
wisdom and for his courage and uh, but what I
remembered most about Malcolm is how sad he was when
he was leaving a nation of Islam and he wasn't
really popular anymore. He had to find his way in life.
And when we're down there, we're practice for our game.
I think it's a runner up game. I was the
only person that would talk to him. I would talk
(05:31):
to him like every day, and he was really trying
to find his way because he'd been so strong underlies
Muhammad and a great spokesperson, but now he was kind
of on his own and he didn't have the nation
behind him anymore. So he was struggling. And uh, not
too long after that, he was killed. And at the time,
(05:52):
Malcolm didn't really have an organization and he really didn't
have a direction. He had gone to Mecca and claimed
that he under stood other things. But I saw him
as a tragic figure that it basically got divided away
from his family and was trying to find a way
to make his life better and to make the lives
of black people better. See to me, all the activists,
(06:13):
all the people that challenge the country has helped to
make it a better country. If we never challenge racism,
racism would be the hallmark of our country. What kind
of country do you want to have? That racism is
number one? Now if you need a modern rendition of that,
that's Nelson Mandela twenty seven years inconcrated the spirit of
(06:34):
a giant who influenced his jails to the point that
they admired him, and who came out and led a
country to freedom, and who dealt with the clerk, and
who dealt with Buddha lazy, and who dealt across the
board without just thinking race a color. So here is
the guy that's in prison that comes and live a
highest standard than everybody else. So these are the things
(06:57):
that make everything healthier. So sometimes when you talk to
white America and you want your freedom, they think you're
causing them a problem, But in essence you're making them
healthier by saying we all should have freedom, equality and justice,
because if I don't have mine, one day someone is
going to take yours away from you. So the people
I admire the people that sometimes controversial because they don't
(07:20):
go along with the status quote and the greatness of
this country is the changes that have been made to
allow a lot of people to include that weren't included before.
Remember this interview was conducted in when Brown identified Nelson
Mandela as the modern day activist. Now fast forward to
(07:42):
when Colin Kaepernick and his protests emerge. Well in August
of Brown was asked his thoughts on Kaepernick, and I'm
going to quote from an interview that he gave. I
would advise him, said Brown. If you're a football player,
play football. If you're going to be a real activist,
use your money, use your notoriety. I want to be
(08:05):
in his corner. He goes on to say, I can't
be two things at once that contradict each other. If
I signed for money, then the people I sign with
have rules and regulations. I'm going to give you the
real deal. Brown continued, I'm an American. I don't desecrate
my flag and my national anthem. I'm not going to
(08:25):
do anything against the flag and the national anthem. I'm
going to work within these situations. But this is my
country and I'll work out the problems. But I'll do
it in an intelligent manner. So with this perspective from ten,
let's go back to Steve's original interview in when when
(08:45):
you were playing GEM and you lined up before the
game and they play the national anthem? What did you
think about that? What was going through your mind? Well,
you know, the funny thing is that I always love
this country and always had a loyalty and respect for it,
So I would stand that attention and I would deal
(09:08):
with it just like a patriot. And then of course
the other thoughts of you know, getting ready for the game,
et cetera. But the national anthem before game was always
like time out, the pay respect or something else, and
I knew it for that. So that was the time
for me to pay respect to the country and the
opportunity that the country has afforded me to be able
(09:30):
to play this game, which is really mine of the game,
and so I regarded it highly. I never was one
to be anti America. I was anti racism, discrimination in
police brutality, but not anti America because all the good
things that I had came to me through being in America,
(09:50):
so I could distinguish between what was bad and what
was good. So I had to firstly be loyal to
the country so that I could work on those things
that were not right about the country. I couldn't be
disloyal to the country and work on those things that's
not right about it and say I'm going to replace
it with something else. I think a lot of foolish
activists have done that without fully understanding that the opportunity
(10:11):
is best here. So it was very clear to me
to pay that respect at that time, you know, to
switch to the emir I can if if we could
just describe its purpose, Jim, and why you started it.
The reason I started because there's so much killing going
on in the country, especially in l A, and there
was a new culture that had been developed against the
(10:34):
culture where murder was a part of it, you know.
And I had the audacity to think that when I
was approached by some young people too, that I could
do something about it. When you have violence everywhere, you
can't create economics of family life or anything that interferes
with everything in the community. And my thing was that
(10:56):
if we could get these violent individuals to change their lives,
we can start to rebuild these communities. And so I
wanted American to help rebuild communities to include people who
had negative power into that equation of improving their own communities.
(11:16):
If you're ever going to make a change in these communities,
it can only be done through coalition. But that coalition
have to have the inclusion of ex convicts, ex gang members,
community people that normally would not be included in the solution.
So I decided to get down the belity to beasts
and deal with those individuals who other people did not
(11:38):
want to deal with and utilize their value, their expertise,
and the fact that most of them wanted to change
their lives. Another thing I've heard you talk about is
that is your evaluation of the black leadership in our
country today and the different types. Well, if black leadership
was effective, gangs would be positive, yeah, crime would be
(12:01):
down in black neighborhoods, businesses would be thriving, and families
would be together. So I don't have a lot of
respect for the so called black leaders especially ones that
aren't elected, because they make an assumption that protests is
the way to freedom. I think hard work and education
(12:25):
is the way of freedom. To be proactive is to
get up and do something, to use an issue to
get publicity to cry to blues about something means that
after you cry the blues, after you get the publicity,
what are the systems you're gonna put in place. So
it's not even debatable. It's not even debatable. If you
look at any successful community in America, it's through their unity,
(12:50):
through the proper use of their economics, through some kind
of family values, and that's just a part of history. So,
like I said, it's not debatable. What role do you
think that that sports plays in the overall picture that
we were just discussing. I mean, is it is it
a role or or should the some of the athletes
be more active and in these issues or not. Let
(13:13):
me put it to you to real, Okay, cold blooded
sports exploit the community at this time, and I'll tell
you why. Sport allows the young men with the greatest
impact and resources to divert their resource and impact away
(13:38):
from the problem. You ex you lionized individuals for having
a nonprofit childabile organization. You put them on television walking
neighborhoods with some kids. These people making forty fifty million
dollars a year. You're talking about athletes that talking about
(13:59):
athletes Black athletes that are exposed as wonderful individuals because
they're walking in together with some kids. Well, if these
athletes look at the Korean community, look at the Japanese community,
look at the Jewish community, those resources are turned back
in that community on a massive level with the plan
of investing and reinvesting and and developing a power of
(14:21):
that particular community. If athletics was playing a role in
sports is playing a role, I would have your top
black athletes at least sitting here with me with some
kind of understanding what I'm trying to do. I can
get the young people from the community sit here. They
don't make any money, but they try and work their
butts off. And where are the other people? When you
(14:42):
say your greatest resource, I'm talking about the athletes and
the entertainers that have the money and the power. They
they they they the kids love them, so they have
the impact and they have the resources. But if my
agent tells me he's gonna make me rich forever and
my money is invested wherever he wants to invest it,
maybe I'm gonna be a billionaire. But wouldn't it be
(15:05):
better if he's Look, I'm gonna teach you how to
really rejuvenate these communities. We're gonna get together and make
sure that Compton, California doesn't go bankrupt. We're gonna put
our resources there, We're gonna revitalize that. We're gonna join
with local organizations, and our objective is to make Compton,
California a viable community confidence going to bankrupt. The mayor
(15:30):
doesn't know what to do. We're trying to help him.
Businesses are moving out. Well. I don't see any football
players and baseball players that's coming together to get sophisticated
enough to really use their resources properly. Everyone almost operates
as an individual. Now that's their rights. They don't have
to do this. We don't go to them, but they
(15:53):
have to understand the success of other coaches in these
coaches and the rules that they applied to their development.
Brown began his work with gangs. The American Programs started
by addressing gang violence, but moved into life skills training,
giving people necessary tools to transition out of a world
of violence. When we come back, Steve and Jim get
(16:17):
into Brown's second career acting, including the story behind one
of the first into racial love scenes in American cinema
and just a Little homework before we get to that, Google,
Raquel Welch, Welcome back to Tales from the Vault. In
part one of our interview last week, we told you
(16:37):
about how Jim Brown's role in the movie The Dirty
Dozen was at least partially responsible for the end of
his football career. While noteworthy, perhaps an even more significant
moment in his movie career came when Brown starred opposite
Raquel Welch in the nineteen sixty nine movie One Hundred Rifles.
(16:58):
All right, now, I want to switch to your first
love scene. Be nervous before that or yet? Well with
Raquel it was gonna be a major historical scene, the
first time a black actor and a white actor kissed
the main love on the screen in America. What movie
was this? By the way, I was shot it in Spain.
(17:23):
And the thing I remember about not being nervous, but
the director and I don't even call his name, wanted
me like to rip or clothes off and kind of attacker.
And I'm thinking, this is not the relationship. The relationship
is a sensitive one, and we have an attraction for
each other, and why does he want me to grab
(17:46):
and like I'm starving, you know? And I felt there
was a little racism and that that he wanted to
give the portrayal of a big black buck grabbing this
white woman. So I compromise a little bit. But basically
it turned into a more sensitive scene. And the funny
thing about it is that right here they kind of
(18:08):
just let us embrace and I was kind of kissing
on the ear and she's very sensitive in her ear.
So after the scene she said, well, Jim, you know,
don't kiss my ear because a little sensitive. So that
was funny. I laughed, and uh, she was something else
because she was feisty, and we did a lot of
pictures of my shirt off and or hanging around my neck,
(18:30):
and it was a big thing in America at the time.
But I wasn't nervous, you know, uh, because love scene
is just like working. You're not making love. You're working
because you gotta get the right angle, you gotta start
over you got you know, so they could be kind
of rough if the two people don't really cooperate. What
did you find with the most difficult thing for you
about being an actor? Well, the most difficult thing for
(18:54):
me is regardless of how you felt, you know, you know,
someone might have died in your family. What you gotta
go in front of camera and portray whatever the emotion
is that in that script, and uh, to shut things out,
all the distractions that go on, uh, you know, the
moving around, the expectations, and to really focused and shut
(19:16):
that out and be able to call upon yourself to
deliver what has to be delivered. That's that's difficult. What's
your favorite role? I like? Uh? I like The Dirty Dozen.
I like tick Tick Tick when I played again opposite
of George Kennedy. I like the split, you know when
(19:36):
I played with Hackman and Klugman in those guys. I
like the style of to split the role I had.
I liked the role in The Dirty Doesn't. And I
thought the story of Tick Tick Tick was a good story,
you know. But those are three that I really liked.
The three movies Brown just mentioned, we're all released between
nineteen sixty four and nine seventy, and all three were
(19:58):
very different. The Dirty Does was the World War two
error movie where Brown was one of a dozen ex
cons tasked with assassinating Nazis. The Split, Well, that was
more of a heist movie center around a robbery at
the l A Coliseum during a Rams game. Of course,
Brown is the mastermind behind the Robbery and Tick Tick Tick,
(20:19):
which was a racially charged movie where Brown plays a
black sheriff in the white South. But in he was
cast in Oliver Stone's and he given Sunday, his first
and only football related role. I'm in an a given
Sunday with Oliver Stone and the man has got a
mind that's unbelievable. And I was with Al Pacino, Cameron Diaz,
(20:43):
James Woods, Jamie Fox, L L. Coo, J Lawrence Taylor,
and we had great actors and uh, I played a
defensive coordinator without I'm Al's a man right, so he
is one of the greatest actors that ever lived. You
got a director that takes you to another height, and
(21:04):
I'm out there playing this role of defense coordinator. And
I really enjoyed it because they took me to a
different level where I couldn't play it down. I had
to play it up. I had to have energy. I
had to do with Pucino, I had to deal with
uh the energy that was around me. And I really,
uh probably enjoyed this role as much as I've ever
(21:28):
enjoyed a role in film, this particular one, and I
don't say that because it's not out, but when you
see it, I think you'll understand that that I had
to enjoy it. Jim. In your career, you must have
been approached by so many different companies for it to
be a spokesman to do endorsements. Looking back, is there
any endorsement that you that you turned down? And for
what reason? Is this a sarcastic No, I just I
(21:49):
just I just have a thing about endorsements, and uh no,
I was not the guy that they wanted to endorse
their product. Um So I worked with a total for
nine years and I did certain other things in life,
but endorsement was not a part of my career. That
was kind of like for the good guys. I was
never considered a good guy, so Protest didn't really want
(22:11):
me representing him, So I was not in that are
Also at that time it was very difficult. Now it's
much a different kind of arena. But you're saying that
that you weren't considered a good guy, and yet I
don't know. Maybe here we are doing a film saying
you're the greatest player in the history of the sport,
and not only for what you've done on the field,
but for what you're you've done afterwards. So at least
(22:32):
in one group here, I mean to me in too
NFL films. I mean we never said that you were,
you know, Jim Brown wells bad. I mean no, understand
this now. What I'm trying to do is be honest
about image. And they are different areas where your image
is different. Uh special people have always been very kind
to me and people I know right now, you guys
(22:54):
are gonna do your research. I know you're gonna put
something for it that's gonna be factual. And you in
competition with truth now, I mean, you've got a research
and dear, you can't just say something anymore. Well, fifteen
years ago, maybe you could say something just kind of
get away with it. So the more that's reveal, a
better off I am. In other words, in depth you
(23:15):
go into me, the better off I am. When we
come back, Steve goes in depth talking about Brown's reason
for retiring after just nine seasons. Stay tuned, Welcome back
to Tales from the Vault. After the intensity of hearing
about Brown's activism and his work on truly meaningful social
(23:38):
issues in our last segment, there are some eye rolling
moments because Steve will ask anything, and Brown shies away
from nothing. When you think of the great players of
the sixties and the great teams of the sixties, and
I know this is sort of a bad question, but
I just want to ask it to you. How do
you think that the great teams of the sixties, the
(23:59):
great players of the sixties, would do in today's game. Well,
I think that is a crazy question, all right. I
think I think it's the most Now that's just not
on you. But let me let me take putty to
you this way. It's almost an embarrassing and it's not
and I'm doing to you now it's almost embarrassing and
(24:21):
disrespectful to do that to try to make the comparison. Yes,
because I'll tell you why if your wife pretty in mine,
you know, it doesn't matter if she does what she's
supposed to do in your life and mind others with
my life, Why can't we both be satisfied so commercially
(24:45):
we try to do these things. My attitude about me
is I deal with what I have to deal with
at the time, and I think I can deal. It
would be foolish for me to try to be a
football player at sixty three years old. But if you
deal with me Cannon, deal with the legislature and deal
when game members across this country ideal. I learned about legislature,
(25:06):
I learned about bills, I learned about lobbyists. I learned
about the development of this country. I get knowledge, and
that knowledge I can stand up against anybody, same attitude.
So Nitsky, whether he could play now, makes no difference.
Ray Nisky was a champion. This guy would hit anything moving.
(25:28):
Chuck ben Nerik was a champion. Johnny Nights was a champion.
For me, to even think of someone talking about it,
is he as good as Joe Montana. I don't care.
I don't know anything about Joe Montanna from the standpoint
of my personal experience on the field. But I do
know about these guys, and I know in a competitive world, wherever,
wherever I'm supposed to compete or ben Nerk, We're going
(25:50):
to compete with the best of them. Walter Payton has
got heart of a lion. Now you can take it
fifty years from now, fifty years before, whatever it is.
He's a heart of a line. So I'm emphatic about comparisons.
I think greatness is greatness. Now, what about the one
criticism that would you hear about Jim Brown? What is
(26:14):
what would what would you know? What I'm gonna say
said he never blocked? Right? Is that what he said
in the movie? I did with all the stone. I
gave all of the line. I said, tell your start
running back when they're talking about him and it's blocking,
to tell him that he's not a class their horse
and he's pulling the bare trucks. He's a though bread
(26:36):
he running sand Anita and though breads don't block. But
I say that and sort of a jest, and that
if three pounds blocking backs are so valuable to you,
why don't you pay them the millions of dollars that
you play a skilled player. I didn't have a lot
of blocking plays, and probably from the standpoint of what
(26:57):
people are talking about, I wasn't a good blocker. But
there were times when I really concentrate on it, that
I was a good blocker, and that would be the
way that i'd answered that I would not I was
a runner, and the emphasis was on that and was
never on whether I was going to be a blocker
or not. The emphasis in blocking is always on the
guy that don't run as well. But then when you
(27:20):
be honest, you take a guy like a Walter Payton.
Walter probably put as much energy in his blocking as
he did in his running, which is commendable. I put
more emphasis in my running than I did anything else.
I mean, I went to an extreme and contempting on that.
So that's the honest way that I would, uh, you know,
say it to you said to the audience. To be
(27:41):
as good as you were at football, you really had
to love the game. What was it about football that
you loved? That? That was that that that attracted you,
that fascinated you? What was what about the game of football?
If we were doing sort of an olde a love
song to the game of football. But it's the next
thing that w you know, it's like I've never been
(28:03):
to war, but I imagine war was unbelievably violent, unbelievably scary.
Football the next thing to it. You test yourself in
every way, stammina, wise, mentally, courage. Uh. It pushes it
to the brink and you can either deal with it
you can't, you know. And if you talk about this
(28:24):
thing about manhood and that arena, it will test every
aspect of your manhood on that particular level. So if
you got a little rabbit in your blood, it's not
the sport to play. And a lot of guys didn't
have great heart, but they had enough heart. But if
you're a little shaky, they'd bring it out. In football,
(28:45):
it was a great test of could I could I stand?
Can I stand up? Can I stand up? Can I perform?
Can I go through the pain? Can I go through
the disappointments? Can I lose and go through the week
of criticism? Uh? Can I do my exercises? Can I
put up with the fact that the coaches are not
constant in the right? Are so many things? And then
(29:06):
can I take it being the fastest gun in the west,
where everybody shooting at me and hitting hit me in
the face with elbows and trying to hurt me. Do
I have it? You know? And I had it? So
I'm glad I had the opportunity to prove it in
that arena, and it helps in every other arena because
you know, when football players get together, we don't brag.
(29:27):
We're very happy to talk to each other. We're happy
about each other's lives. Because we were together there, we
know there was no toughest guy. It's tough as you
wanted to be. There's always gonna be somebody that's gonna
bring it to you. So we felt good that we
were warriors and we had survived, and we have a
history and we're in the same fraternity and we all
proved it, you know. So it's a nice fraternity, you know.
(29:48):
But it's a very gentle, very gentle, sensitive fraternity. When
I saw a white Turtle and you know, Ricky Waters,
there was no difference in the two of them and
the respect they had for me, even though Rookie is young.
And why it's oh, because we all played the game
and we can respect each other in our participation in
(30:08):
the game. So it's a beautiful, really kind of soft thing.
You know, when you look back on on your whole
career as a player, what what do you look on
with the most pride? I mean, is it there's there,
there's the records, there's the championships. It's there one thing,
Jim that you look back on your career and I
(30:31):
feel it makes you feel the most satisfaction. Well his
his his, that really works if anybody is honest about
their career. I played nine years, I didn't miss the game. Okay.
I was fairly consistent, all right, And I had three
(30:53):
championship games that we played for we won one. Uh.
I played in the Pro Bowl games and I left
at the age of twenty nine years old, and I
was m VP of the league. When you talk about careers,
that intensity level is hard for anybody to deal with.
(31:16):
They can say anything they want to, you can fix
it up with all these things about a thousand yards
and all of that. But if you talk about a
career in nine years and not missing a game and
perform a particular level, I'm proud of that, and no
one that would be able to take that away from
me by superficially imposing these things in these standards that
(31:37):
everybody's talking about. You know, a thousand yards was ridiculous
for twelve games, it got totally ridiculous for fourteen, and
it's not even worth mentioning with any respect for sixteen.
Thousand yards is not a standard of anything other than mediocrity. So, UH,
my pride is based in that career, the consistency of
(31:59):
that Rea having played in three championships, winning one and
getting out as m v P of the league at
age twenty nine years old, and that's what I wanted
to do. I wanted to have a career elected. I
like to start and like to finish. I didn't want
to get traded. I didn't want to miss any games.
You know, I didn't want to do it. I just
wanted to have a pure kind of participation to live
(32:21):
with forever. And I was fortunate enough to do that.
So I'm proud of that. Does that sort of answer
the next the next question that I that I wanted
to ask you about why you're retired. I mean, that's
that's so unique that someone retires. I mean as a champion.
I mean that was great to see Elway do it,
Van Brocklin did it. You did it, But it just
seems like so few great athletes can get to that
(32:42):
point and cut it off and say that's it. We'll
see when when you mentioned so few people can do it,
that changed the whole context of the question. That is
the deal. I don't care what other people do. I
don't send my standards by other people. I recognize greatness
and other people, but my standards are based upon how
I think. Therefore, I don't want to stay anywhere too long.
(33:06):
I don't want to hang on. I don't want to
get traded. I don't want to be the secondary guy.
I wanted to have a career for a career, have
it peaked, and leave and do other things. It's real simple.
You know. I did see Joe Louis hang around too long.
You know, I did see individuals become sympathetic because they
(33:28):
were not what they used to be. And I don't.
I didn't. I didn't want to do that. Okay, I
think we got it today. Jim Brown is eighty five
years old and still living in that same house in
Los Angeles. And while Brown's reticent to compare players across eras,
I think it's kind of a no brainer that if
he was playing in today's game, he'd be just as
(33:49):
dominant as he was in the nineteen sixties, even if
he wasn't excelling at past protection. Since he left the
game in nineteen there have been Hall of famers that
have either retired at their peak. I think Barry Sanders,
Calvin Johnson, or retired after winning a title. Steve mentioned
John Elway. You also have though Michael Strahan, Jerome Bettis,
(34:12):
Ray Lewis, and Peyton Manning. But none of them except
Brown did. Both retired at their peak after winning a championship.
Next week, a very special treat from Steve Stables only
interview with the late John Madden. You'll hear John's thoughts
(34:32):
on the Immaculate Reception, the Holy Roller, and Al Davis.
I sure hope you'll join us. Thanks for listening. I'm
Andrea Kramer.
Welcome to NFL Films Tales from the Vault, a weekly
podcast where we take a trip into one of the biggest,
coolest time capsules in the world, the NFL Films Vault.
I'm your host, Andrea Kramer. I was hired as NFL
films first female Well back then we were called producer, director, writer, editors,
(00:25):
and I had the pleasure of working for and learning
from the late President of NFL Films, Steve Sable. Steve
wore many hats, but perhaps one of his greatest skills
was connecting with people, getting them to open up and
with a creative and informed line of questioning, allowing listeners
to learn more about the greatest characters in the history
(00:47):
of the NFL. Today we have part two of Steve's
epic interview with Jim Brown. Ye Steve sat down with
(01:10):
Jim Brown at his home in Los Angeles for an
NFL Film show which recognized Brown as the player of
the millennium. The two of them covered a wide range
of topics and the interview was so compelling and lengthy
that we had to split it up into two parts.
Part one and if you haven't listened to that one yet,
try to try to go back and do so well.
(01:30):
It mostly consisted of delving into Jim's playing career and
what made him the player of the millennium. In this episode,
will here Brown's reason for retiring his thoughts about the
national anthem, which, considering this interview took place over twenty
years ago, is eerily relevant and foreshadowing. We have a
deep dive into the issues that really define who Jim
(01:53):
Brown was and continues to be the template for the athlete, actor, activist.
But we're going to start off at the movies because
I have to tell you our producer, Chips Wayne, found
something in the vault that is so amazing to me
that I just think we have to hear more about it.
So you know that movie from One Night in Miami,
(02:17):
which was nominated for three Oscars, Well, it's a fictional
account of a real event that took place in nine
when Muhammad Ali, Jim Brown, Malcolm X, and Sam Cook
all gathered in a hotel room in Miami following Ali,
who was then known as Cassius Clay Ali's championship fight
(02:38):
against Senny Liston. Well, that movie was fiction, But we
start today's episode with Jim Brown's account of what really
happened that night. This is fascinating, folks. You were with
Muhammad Ali after he beat Sonny Listen in Florida. What
was that scene like in the locker room? I mean
after after he won the fight. Well, the scene was
actually in a little black motel at that he wanted
(03:00):
to fight. Because they came right back to the motel,
Malcolm X was there. The great thing about that is
I was the only person with Ali in the back
bedroom after that fight. He talked to me for about
two hours about Elijah Mohammad and about his life and
about things, and Malcolm and Muslim ministers were out in
(03:21):
the living room pot and finally when we came out, well,
I wanted him to go over to Found Lucas. That's
where all the girls were, you know, I mean, let's
go party. But he wanted to be in a little
black motel. And he got out, came out, and Malcolm said,
brother Ali, now that you've got the championship, don't you
think you don't have to speak as much, that you
don't have to talk as loud anymore. Don't you think
(03:42):
it would be a good idea? And all he didn't
say anything, said Brother Brown don't you think it'd be
a good as Yeah, I think, But Ali had told
me that he was leaving Malcolm and not gonna deal
with Malcolm. That Malcolm was splitting with the Nation Islam.
He's gonna go with the Elijah Mohammed because Elijah Maham
was a strong one and he was not going to
be a friend of Malcolm's anymore. So that was the
(04:03):
impactful part of what happened at that fight. We never
did talk about the fight because Ali was serious about
his movement and the nation and all of that, so
and I was serious about being black and all of that.
So we were really about the politics. What were you
telling Muhammad at the time. At the time, Well, basically
(04:24):
I was dealing with the business aspect of being the
heavyweight champion and how you control your economics and uh.
Also at that time, every black person I knew was
conscious of the movement, you know, freeom, e quality and justice,
so we're always talking about how to achieve that, and
(04:47):
uh he was going to do about being a Muslim.
I thought the economic route was the route. So that
was the tenor of a conversation Malcolm X. Your relationship
with him, evaluation him his place in history. For Malcolm,
placent histories already there. I can't shape that people rediscovered
him and gave him a lot of credit for his
(05:10):
wisdom and for his courage and uh, but what I
remembered most about Malcolm is how sad he was when
he was leaving a nation of Islam and he wasn't
really popular anymore. He had to find his way in life.
And when we're down there, we're practice for our game.
I think it's a runner up game. I was the
only person that would talk to him. I would talk
(05:31):
to him like every day, and he was really trying
to find his way because he'd been so strong underlies
Muhammad and a great spokesperson, but now he was kind
of on his own and he didn't have the nation
behind him anymore. So he was struggling. And uh, not
too long after that, he was killed. And at the time,
(05:52):
Malcolm didn't really have an organization and he really didn't
have a direction. He had gone to Mecca and claimed
that he under stood other things. But I saw him
as a tragic figure that it basically got divided away
from his family and was trying to find a way
to make his life better and to make the lives
of black people better. See to me, all the activists,
(06:13):
all the people that challenge the country has helped to
make it a better country. If we never challenge racism,
racism would be the hallmark of our country. What kind
of country do you want to have? That racism is
number one? Now if you need a modern rendition of that,
that's Nelson Mandela twenty seven years inconcrated the spirit of
(06:34):
a giant who influenced his jails to the point that
they admired him, and who came out and led a
country to freedom, and who dealt with the clerk, and
who dealt with Buddha lazy, and who dealt across the
board without just thinking race a color. So here is
the guy that's in prison that comes and live a
highest standard than everybody else. So these are the things
(06:57):
that make everything healthier. So sometimes when you talk to
white America and you want your freedom, they think you're
causing them a problem, But in essence you're making them
healthier by saying we all should have freedom, equality and justice,
because if I don't have mine, one day someone is
going to take yours away from you. So the people
I admire the people that sometimes controversial because they don't
(07:20):
go along with the status quote and the greatness of
this country is the changes that have been made to
allow a lot of people to include that weren't included before.
Remember this interview was conducted in when Brown identified Nelson
Mandela as the modern day activist. Now fast forward to
(07:42):
when Colin Kaepernick and his protests emerge. Well in August
of Brown was asked his thoughts on Kaepernick, and I'm
going to quote from an interview that he gave. I
would advise him, said Brown. If you're a football player,
play football. If you're going to be a real activist,
use your money, use your notoriety. I want to be
(08:05):
in his corner. He goes on to say, I can't
be two things at once that contradict each other. If
I signed for money, then the people I sign with
have rules and regulations. I'm going to give you the
real deal. Brown continued, I'm an American. I don't desecrate
my flag and my national anthem. I'm not going to
(08:25):
do anything against the flag and the national anthem. I'm
going to work within these situations. But this is my
country and I'll work out the problems. But I'll do
it in an intelligent manner. So with this perspective from ten,
let's go back to Steve's original interview in when when
(08:45):
you were playing GEM and you lined up before the
game and they play the national anthem? What did you
think about that? What was going through your mind? Well,
you know, the funny thing is that I always love
this country and always had a loyalty and respect for it,
So I would stand that attention and I would deal
(09:08):
with it just like a patriot. And then of course
the other thoughts of you know, getting ready for the game,
et cetera. But the national anthem before game was always
like time out, the pay respect or something else, and
I knew it for that. So that was the time
for me to pay respect to the country and the
opportunity that the country has afforded me to be able
(09:30):
to play this game, which is really mine of the game,
and so I regarded it highly. I never was one
to be anti America. I was anti racism, discrimination in
police brutality, but not anti America because all the good
things that I had came to me through being in America,
(09:50):
so I could distinguish between what was bad and what
was good. So I had to firstly be loyal to
the country so that I could work on those things
that were not right about the country. I couldn't be
disloyal to the country and work on those things that's
not right about it and say I'm going to replace
it with something else. I think a lot of foolish
activists have done that without fully understanding that the opportunity
(10:11):
is best here. So it was very clear to me
to pay that respect at that time, you know, to
switch to the emir I can if if we could
just describe its purpose, Jim, and why you started it.
The reason I started because there's so much killing going
on in the country, especially in l A, and there
was a new culture that had been developed against the
(10:34):
culture where murder was a part of it, you know.
And I had the audacity to think that when I
was approached by some young people too, that I could
do something about it. When you have violence everywhere, you
can't create economics of family life or anything that interferes
with everything in the community. And my thing was that
(10:56):
if we could get these violent individuals to change their lives,
we can start to rebuild these communities. And so I
wanted American to help rebuild communities to include people who
had negative power into that equation of improving their own communities.
(11:16):
If you're ever going to make a change in these communities,
it can only be done through coalition. But that coalition
have to have the inclusion of ex convicts, ex gang members,
community people that normally would not be included in the solution.
So I decided to get down the belity to beasts
and deal with those individuals who other people did not
(11:38):
want to deal with and utilize their value, their expertise,
and the fact that most of them wanted to change
their lives. Another thing I've heard you talk about is
that is your evaluation of the black leadership in our
country today and the different types. Well, if black leadership
was effective, gangs would be positive, yeah, crime would be
(12:01):
down in black neighborhoods, businesses would be thriving, and families
would be together. So I don't have a lot of
respect for the so called black leaders especially ones that
aren't elected, because they make an assumption that protests is
the way to freedom. I think hard work and education
(12:25):
is the way of freedom. To be proactive is to
get up and do something, to use an issue to
get publicity to cry to blues about something means that
after you cry the blues, after you get the publicity,
what are the systems you're gonna put in place. So
it's not even debatable. It's not even debatable. If you
look at any successful community in America, it's through their unity,
(12:50):
through the proper use of their economics, through some kind
of family values, and that's just a part of history. So,
like I said, it's not debatable. What role do you
think that that sports plays in the overall picture that
we were just discussing. I mean, is it is it
a role or or should the some of the athletes
be more active and in these issues or not. Let
(13:13):
me put it to you to real, Okay, cold blooded
sports exploit the community at this time, and I'll tell
you why. Sport allows the young men with the greatest
impact and resources to divert their resource and impact away
(13:38):
from the problem. You ex you lionized individuals for having
a nonprofit childabile organization. You put them on television walking
neighborhoods with some kids. These people making forty fifty million
dollars a year. You're talking about athletes that talking about
(13:59):
athletes Black athletes that are exposed as wonderful individuals because
they're walking in together with some kids. Well, if these
athletes look at the Korean community, look at the Japanese community,
look at the Jewish community, those resources are turned back
in that community on a massive level with the plan
of investing and reinvesting and and developing a power of
(14:21):
that particular community. If athletics was playing a role in
sports is playing a role, I would have your top
black athletes at least sitting here with me with some
kind of understanding what I'm trying to do. I can
get the young people from the community sit here. They
don't make any money, but they try and work their
butts off. And where are the other people? When you
(14:42):
say your greatest resource, I'm talking about the athletes and
the entertainers that have the money and the power. They
they they they the kids love them, so they have
the impact and they have the resources. But if my
agent tells me he's gonna make me rich forever and
my money is invested wherever he wants to invest it,
maybe I'm gonna be a billionaire. But wouldn't it be
(15:05):
better if he's Look, I'm gonna teach you how to
really rejuvenate these communities. We're gonna get together and make
sure that Compton, California doesn't go bankrupt. We're gonna put
our resources there, We're gonna revitalize that. We're gonna join
with local organizations, and our objective is to make Compton,
California a viable community confidence going to bankrupt. The mayor
(15:30):
doesn't know what to do. We're trying to help him.
Businesses are moving out. Well. I don't see any football
players and baseball players that's coming together to get sophisticated
enough to really use their resources properly. Everyone almost operates
as an individual. Now that's their rights. They don't have
to do this. We don't go to them, but they
(15:53):
have to understand the success of other coaches in these
coaches and the rules that they applied to their development.
Brown began his work with gangs. The American Programs started
by addressing gang violence, but moved into life skills training,
giving people necessary tools to transition out of a world
of violence. When we come back, Steve and Jim get
(16:17):
into Brown's second career acting, including the story behind one
of the first into racial love scenes in American cinema
and just a Little homework before we get to that, Google,
Raquel Welch, Welcome back to Tales from the Vault. In
part one of our interview last week, we told you
(16:37):
about how Jim Brown's role in the movie The Dirty
Dozen was at least partially responsible for the end of
his football career. While noteworthy, perhaps an even more significant
moment in his movie career came when Brown starred opposite
Raquel Welch in the nineteen sixty nine movie One Hundred Rifles.
(16:58):
All right, now, I want to switch to your first
love scene. Be nervous before that or yet? Well with
Raquel it was gonna be a major historical scene, the
first time a black actor and a white actor kissed
the main love on the screen in America. What movie
was this? By the way, I was shot it in Spain.
(17:23):
And the thing I remember about not being nervous, but
the director and I don't even call his name, wanted
me like to rip or clothes off and kind of attacker.
And I'm thinking, this is not the relationship. The relationship
is a sensitive one, and we have an attraction for
each other, and why does he want me to grab
(17:46):
and like I'm starving, you know? And I felt there
was a little racism and that that he wanted to
give the portrayal of a big black buck grabbing this
white woman. So I compromise a little bit. But basically
it turned into a more sensitive scene. And the funny
thing about it is that right here they kind of
(18:08):
just let us embrace and I was kind of kissing
on the ear and she's very sensitive in her ear.
So after the scene she said, well, Jim, you know,
don't kiss my ear because a little sensitive. So that
was funny. I laughed, and uh, she was something else
because she was feisty, and we did a lot of
pictures of my shirt off and or hanging around my neck,
(18:30):
and it was a big thing in America at the time.
But I wasn't nervous, you know, uh, because love scene
is just like working. You're not making love. You're working
because you gotta get the right angle, you gotta start
over you got you know, so they could be kind
of rough if the two people don't really cooperate. What
did you find with the most difficult thing for you
about being an actor? Well, the most difficult thing for
(18:54):
me is regardless of how you felt, you know, you know,
someone might have died in your family. What you gotta
go in front of camera and portray whatever the emotion
is that in that script, and uh, to shut things out,
all the distractions that go on, uh, you know, the
moving around, the expectations, and to really focused and shut
(19:16):
that out and be able to call upon yourself to
deliver what has to be delivered. That's that's difficult. What's
your favorite role? I like? Uh? I like The Dirty Dozen.
I like tick Tick Tick when I played again opposite
of George Kennedy. I like the split, you know when
(19:36):
I played with Hackman and Klugman in those guys. I
like the style of to split the role I had.
I liked the role in The Dirty Doesn't. And I
thought the story of Tick Tick Tick was a good story,
you know. But those are three that I really liked.
The three movies Brown just mentioned, we're all released between
nineteen sixty four and nine seventy, and all three were
(19:58):
very different. The Dirty Does was the World War two
error movie where Brown was one of a dozen ex
cons tasked with assassinating Nazis. The Split, Well, that was
more of a heist movie center around a robbery at
the l A Coliseum during a Rams game. Of course,
Brown is the mastermind behind the Robbery and Tick Tick Tick,
(20:19):
which was a racially charged movie where Brown plays a
black sheriff in the white South. But in he was
cast in Oliver Stone's and he given Sunday, his first
and only football related role. I'm in an a given
Sunday with Oliver Stone and the man has got a
mind that's unbelievable. And I was with Al Pacino, Cameron Diaz,
(20:43):
James Woods, Jamie Fox, L L. Coo, J Lawrence Taylor,
and we had great actors and uh, I played a
defensive coordinator without I'm Al's a man right, so he
is one of the greatest actors that ever lived. You
got a director that takes you to another height, and
(21:04):
I'm out there playing this role of defense coordinator. And
I really enjoyed it because they took me to a
different level where I couldn't play it down. I had
to play it up. I had to have energy. I
had to do with Pucino, I had to deal with
uh the energy that was around me. And I really,
uh probably enjoyed this role as much as I've ever
(21:28):
enjoyed a role in film, this particular one, and I
don't say that because it's not out, but when you
see it, I think you'll understand that that I had
to enjoy it. Jim. In your career, you must have
been approached by so many different companies for it to
be a spokesman to do endorsements. Looking back, is there
any endorsement that you that you turned down? And for
what reason? Is this a sarcastic No, I just I
(21:49):
just I just have a thing about endorsements, and uh no,
I was not the guy that they wanted to endorse
their product. Um So I worked with a total for
nine years and I did certain other things in life,
but endorsement was not a part of my career. That
was kind of like for the good guys. I was
never considered a good guy, so Protest didn't really want
(22:11):
me representing him, So I was not in that are
Also at that time it was very difficult. Now it's
much a different kind of arena. But you're saying that
that you weren't considered a good guy, and yet I
don't know. Maybe here we are doing a film saying
you're the greatest player in the history of the sport,
and not only for what you've done on the field,
but for what you're you've done afterwards. So at least
(22:32):
in one group here, I mean to me in too
NFL films. I mean we never said that you were,
you know, Jim Brown wells bad. I mean no, understand
this now. What I'm trying to do is be honest
about image. And they are different areas where your image
is different. Uh special people have always been very kind
to me and people I know right now, you guys
(22:54):
are gonna do your research. I know you're gonna put
something for it that's gonna be factual. And you in
competition with truth now, I mean, you've got a research
and dear, you can't just say something anymore. Well, fifteen
years ago, maybe you could say something just kind of
get away with it. So the more that's reveal, a
better off I am. In other words, in depth you
(23:15):
go into me, the better off I am. When we
come back, Steve goes in depth talking about Brown's reason
for retiring after just nine seasons. Stay tuned, Welcome back
to Tales from the Vault. After the intensity of hearing
about Brown's activism and his work on truly meaningful social
(23:38):
issues in our last segment, there are some eye rolling
moments because Steve will ask anything, and Brown shies away
from nothing. When you think of the great players of
the sixties and the great teams of the sixties, and
I know this is sort of a bad question, but
I just want to ask it to you. How do
you think that the great teams of the sixties, the
(23:59):
great players of the sixties, would do in today's game. Well,
I think that is a crazy question, all right. I
think I think it's the most Now that's just not
on you. But let me let me take putty to
you this way. It's almost an embarrassing and it's not
and I'm doing to you now it's almost embarrassing and
(24:21):
disrespectful to do that to try to make the comparison. Yes,
because I'll tell you why if your wife pretty in mine,
you know, it doesn't matter if she does what she's
supposed to do in your life and mind others with
my life, Why can't we both be satisfied so commercially
(24:45):
we try to do these things. My attitude about me
is I deal with what I have to deal with
at the time, and I think I can deal. It
would be foolish for me to try to be a
football player at sixty three years old. But if you
deal with me Cannon, deal with the legislature and deal
when game members across this country ideal. I learned about legislature,
(25:06):
I learned about bills, I learned about lobbyists. I learned
about the development of this country. I get knowledge, and
that knowledge I can stand up against anybody, same attitude.
So Nitsky, whether he could play now, makes no difference.
Ray Nisky was a champion. This guy would hit anything moving.
(25:28):
Chuck ben Nerik was a champion. Johnny Nights was a champion.
For me, to even think of someone talking about it,
is he as good as Joe Montana. I don't care.
I don't know anything about Joe Montanna from the standpoint
of my personal experience on the field. But I do
know about these guys, and I know in a competitive world, wherever,
wherever I'm supposed to compete or ben Nerk, We're going
(25:50):
to compete with the best of them. Walter Payton has
got heart of a lion. Now you can take it
fifty years from now, fifty years before, whatever it is.
He's a heart of a line. So I'm emphatic about comparisons.
I think greatness is greatness. Now, what about the one
criticism that would you hear about Jim Brown? What is
(26:14):
what would what would you know? What I'm gonna say
said he never blocked? Right? Is that what he said
in the movie? I did with all the stone. I
gave all of the line. I said, tell your start
running back when they're talking about him and it's blocking,
to tell him that he's not a class their horse
and he's pulling the bare trucks. He's a though bread
(26:36):
he running sand Anita and though breads don't block. But
I say that and sort of a jest, and that
if three pounds blocking backs are so valuable to you,
why don't you pay them the millions of dollars that
you play a skilled player. I didn't have a lot
of blocking plays, and probably from the standpoint of what
(26:57):
people are talking about, I wasn't a good blocker. But
there were times when I really concentrate on it, that
I was a good blocker, and that would be the
way that i'd answered that I would not I was
a runner, and the emphasis was on that and was
never on whether I was going to be a blocker
or not. The emphasis in blocking is always on the
guy that don't run as well. But then when you
(27:20):
be honest, you take a guy like a Walter Payton.
Walter probably put as much energy in his blocking as
he did in his running, which is commendable. I put
more emphasis in my running than I did anything else.
I mean, I went to an extreme and contempting on that.
So that's the honest way that I would, uh, you know,
say it to you said to the audience. To be
(27:41):
as good as you were at football, you really had
to love the game. What was it about football that
you loved? That? That was that that that attracted you,
that fascinated you? What was what about the game of football?
If we were doing sort of an olde a love
song to the game of football. But it's the next
thing that w you know, it's like I've never been
(28:03):
to war, but I imagine war was unbelievably violent, unbelievably scary.
Football the next thing to it. You test yourself in
every way, stammina, wise, mentally, courage. Uh. It pushes it
to the brink and you can either deal with it
you can't, you know. And if you talk about this
(28:24):
thing about manhood and that arena, it will test every
aspect of your manhood on that particular level. So if
you got a little rabbit in your blood, it's not
the sport to play. And a lot of guys didn't
have great heart, but they had enough heart. But if
you're a little shaky, they'd bring it out. In football,
(28:45):
it was a great test of could I could I stand?
Can I stand up? Can I stand up? Can I perform?
Can I go through the pain? Can I go through
the disappointments? Can I lose and go through the week
of criticism? Uh? Can I do my exercises? Can I
put up with the fact that the coaches are not
constant in the right? Are so many things? And then
(29:06):
can I take it being the fastest gun in the west,
where everybody shooting at me and hitting hit me in
the face with elbows and trying to hurt me. Do
I have it? You know? And I had it? So
I'm glad I had the opportunity to prove it in
that arena, and it helps in every other arena because
you know, when football players get together, we don't brag.
(29:27):
We're very happy to talk to each other. We're happy
about each other's lives. Because we were together there, we
know there was no toughest guy. It's tough as you
wanted to be. There's always gonna be somebody that's gonna
bring it to you. So we felt good that we
were warriors and we had survived, and we have a
history and we're in the same fraternity and we all
proved it, you know. So it's a nice fraternity, you know.
(29:48):
But it's a very gentle, very gentle, sensitive fraternity. When
I saw a white Turtle and you know, Ricky Waters,
there was no difference in the two of them and
the respect they had for me, even though Rookie is young.
And why it's oh, because we all played the game
and we can respect each other in our participation in
(30:08):
the game. So it's a beautiful, really kind of soft thing.
You know, when you look back on on your whole
career as a player, what what do you look on
with the most pride? I mean, is it there's there,
there's the records, there's the championships. It's there one thing,
Jim that you look back on your career and I
(30:31):
feel it makes you feel the most satisfaction. Well his
his his, that really works if anybody is honest about
their career. I played nine years, I didn't miss the game. Okay.
I was fairly consistent, all right, And I had three
(30:53):
championship games that we played for we won one. Uh.
I played in the Pro Bowl games and I left
at the age of twenty nine years old, and I
was m VP of the league. When you talk about careers,
that intensity level is hard for anybody to deal with.
(31:16):
They can say anything they want to, you can fix
it up with all these things about a thousand yards
and all of that. But if you talk about a
career in nine years and not missing a game and
perform a particular level, I'm proud of that, and no
one that would be able to take that away from
me by superficially imposing these things in these standards that
(31:37):
everybody's talking about. You know, a thousand yards was ridiculous
for twelve games, it got totally ridiculous for fourteen, and
it's not even worth mentioning with any respect for sixteen.
Thousand yards is not a standard of anything other than mediocrity. So, UH,
my pride is based in that career, the consistency of
(31:59):
that Rea having played in three championships, winning one and
getting out as m v P of the league at
age twenty nine years old, and that's what I wanted
to do. I wanted to have a career elected. I
like to start and like to finish. I didn't want
to get traded. I didn't want to miss any games.
You know, I didn't want to do it. I just
wanted to have a pure kind of participation to live
(32:21):
with forever. And I was fortunate enough to do that.
So I'm proud of that. Does that sort of answer
the next the next question that I that I wanted
to ask you about why you're retired. I mean, that's
that's so unique that someone retires. I mean as a champion.
I mean that was great to see Elway do it,
Van Brocklin did it. You did it, But it just
seems like so few great athletes can get to that
(32:42):
point and cut it off and say that's it. We'll
see when when you mentioned so few people can do it,
that changed the whole context of the question. That is
the deal. I don't care what other people do. I
don't send my standards by other people. I recognize greatness
and other people, but my standards are based upon how
I think. Therefore, I don't want to stay anywhere too long.
(33:06):
I don't want to hang on. I don't want to
get traded. I don't want to be the secondary guy.
I wanted to have a career for a career, have
it peaked, and leave and do other things. It's real simple.
You know. I did see Joe Louis hang around too long.
You know, I did see individuals become sympathetic because they
(33:28):
were not what they used to be. And I don't.
I didn't. I didn't want to do that. Okay, I
think we got it today. Jim Brown is eighty five
years old and still living in that same house in
Los Angeles. And while Brown's reticent to compare players across eras,
I think it's kind of a no brainer that if
he was playing in today's game, he'd be just as
(33:49):
dominant as he was in the nineteen sixties, even if
he wasn't excelling at past protection. Since he left the
game in nineteen there have been Hall of famers that
have either retired at their peak. I think Barry Sanders,
Calvin Johnson, or retired after winning a title. Steve mentioned
John Elway. You also have though Michael Strahan, Jerome Bettis,
(34:12):
Ray Lewis, and Peyton Manning. But none of them except
Brown did. Both retired at their peak after winning a championship.
Next week, a very special treat from Steve Stables only
interview with the late John Madden. You'll hear John's thoughts
(34:32):
on the Immaculate Reception, the Holy Roller, and Al Davis.
I sure hope you'll join us. Thanks for listening. I'm
Andrea Kramer.
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