March 30, 2022 • 46 mins
Host Andrea Kremer takes us back to 2000 when NFL Films Steve Sabol interviewed Hall of Famer Michael Irvin just months after the 3x Super Bowl Champion retired. Irvin started with the difficulty of playing in the NFC East every year and how one of his conversations with John Madden resulted in several rule changes. Steve asks about Irvin's relationship with his teammates and the several coaches that he played for in the tough years when the Cowboys struggled. Irvin doesn't shy away from some of the low points of his career discussing brushes with the law and his 1996 arrest and trial. Steve wraps up with the many life lessons that Irvin learned from playing the game of football.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Tales from the Vault is a production of the NFL
in partnership with I Heart Radio. Welcome to our latest
episode of NFL Films Tales from the Vault. I'm your host,
Hall of Fame journalist Andrea Kramer. It was when I
started my career at NFL Films as a producer, and
(00:26):
Steve Sable, the man who made NFL Films what it is,
was my boss and mentor. Steve was not just a
creative genius. He had a tremendous sense of curiosity. He
was a brilliant conversationalist, and it all combined to make
him an expert interviewer. This podcast showcases some of the
greatest interviews that he ever did, none of which have
(00:48):
ever been heard before in their entirety. The coolest part
for me about the show is that it's like a
time capsule and I get to guide you back in time. Today,
we head to the Vault for Steve's interview from the
year two thousand with the playmaker Michael Irvine. Yeah, Michael
(01:18):
Irvin has been a staple on television for over twenty
years ever since he retired. Love him or hate him,
there is no denying that if you look up the
word loquacious, you will see Michael's picture. And then, of
course there are the clothes. I actually just did a
show with Michael at this year's Super Bowl, and the
(01:38):
first thing that somebody said to me was, what exactly
is Michael Irvin wearing? But you know what, he's flash
and dash, and he's that way the way he looks,
and he's certainly that way the way he talks, and
he will talk about pretty much anything. So this interview
with Steven Michael took place just eight months after Irvin
(01:59):
retired from the NFL, and certainly no topic was off limits.
Steve delved into all areas of his career, both on
and off the field. You'll hear about how a conversation
with John Madden led to an NFL rule change. But
you'll also hear sincere contrition from Irvin about his arrest
(02:20):
and subsequent trial, a trial that I actually covered for
ESPN back then. And speaking of clothing, that's the trial
when Michael Irvin walked into the courthouse in a full
length for coat. Yep, that's an image I will never
get out of my mind. But look, we begin with
Steve and Michael talking football, particularly the NFC East. Remember,
(02:45):
back in the nineties, the NFC East was the division
in football, kind of like what the a f C
West is right now. In those days, a team from
the East won five Super Bowls. They were truly dominant.
And that's where we start with Michael and Steve. Of
all the teams that you played against, was for one
team that you really hated. I mean there was Huh,
(03:11):
what are you trying to say, it's one team? All
the teams I ever played one team? You know what?
And I gonna be honest with you. I think playing
when I played, I played in the NFC East, and
I think playing in the East, I mean really, and
even when the East was supposed to be down the
years that we want super Bowl, they city East was down.
The NFC East, Man, it was any game you played
in the East. I mean you go back of all
(03:32):
the years, and we had great teams, we win a
Super Bowl. We never beat anybody in the East by
more than three or five points. Man, I'm like, we
would go and playing in Philadelphia like garbage, We're gonna
go down here and blown. We just blew San Francisco
out right, so I'm figured we'll go blow blow Philadelphia
and we'll go out there. We got a thirteen team.
(03:53):
I'm like, man, what was that? You know what was
that was always tough to win? In Philadelphia? It was
always tough to win. And uh and in Washington because
those in in New York because those are the games
that we played every year. And it's like they all
their teams around the Cowboys and they always double And
I hate my stats with horrible. I hate playing in
the East because you know, they play you every week
and they always they build your team around you and
(04:14):
the double cover and I'm coming out of there with
five catches for forty or five yards or six catches
and I'm mad the whole week. You know, can't wait
to get to somebody. You mentioned stats, Michael. When you
look back on your career and it's a Hall of
Fame career, what to you is your favorite stat the
one thing that that you would want to honestly, honestly,
my Super Bowl ring, we can call um stat Are
(04:36):
you wearing I don't I have one. I have one
in the back room. You're not wearing your super Bowl ring? No,
because we'll go with it, won't go with the outfite
and you know my super Bowl. I don't people know
I want three. I don't need to show it off
like that. They know, you know, they know I played
for Dallas. It's America. You know it was Dallas. You
know we want we want three and you know that's
(04:56):
a great thing to baby said. I won three and
now and I'm retired. I just really the first time
I really thought about when winning three super Bowls and
that that was a great com So that's my greatest stad.
When you think back that first super Bowl, can you
think of what what you felt. I remember you talked
to Troy about this once and he said he remembered
first he said he couldn't he couldn't catch his breath. Man,
I'm I'm the first one was the one because I'm
(05:19):
emman and I We're walking out on the field and
it was it was a passadeen walking out and I'm
talking about and you have passaden. The people are right
down on you, I mean fasty must you know in
the NFL made they wanted they must have packed people
and it was like sorry, it was everywhere. And you
remember us walking out in and I that's the first
time my knees elbow buckled. I mean, all the years
(05:39):
that played football, I never really got my knees buckle.
I remember, even because I mean I walked out of
thet you felt that here's mustter buckled at the same
time too, because he looked at me like, yeah, like
I felt dead and I and it took, like I
don't took about the first quarter before I really just
caught myself again, like I felt like I had my legs.
It was, it was, it was amazing. You know, we
had that great shot even super so. I'm sure you've
(06:00):
seen it on ESPN hundreds of times. Your touchdown in
that game. We have a great super slow shot of
you catching the touchdowns. Which one I mean, you know
a couple. I caught a couple in the game, I think,
I remember when you tell me, I think the one
where I caught it a kind of dove across the
bad Oh man. That's that's when I finally got my
knees back after that play. And it took a while.
(06:22):
I mean, it was I've never and I never had
the feeling again. And we're playing two more Super Bowls
after that, but it was never quite that feeling. And
I think it was just you know we were young
and well I don't think we were supposed to be
there yet, and we popped up. Man, it was it
was quite a feeling. There's something I never forget. We
have a lot of shots of you and Emmett in
the tunnel before the game starts, and you two are
(06:44):
holding each other or you're hugging each other. That seems
like some sort of a pregame ritual. Well what were
you doing? Because we've got a lot of a lot
of types. Like our cameramen would always see that we
always walk out together. Yeah, we were always you know,
m and I are very close and uh, we always
put it on ourselves to win the games. It was
(07:04):
always up to us. You know, if if I lied,
if I lined about that and I saw those guys
dropping off in the covers, come on, you gotta run
the ball because I want to get my stats too.
You know, if if they got if they got too
many guys covering the you know, we got seven eight
guys um up front, so immage John and running the ball.
He's running good, then they'll bring the extra guy down.
I can get my catches. So we kind of just
kept it ready. We would always tell each other that
you know, we we did, uh, he was twenty two
(07:26):
hours eighty eight. You know, we had these posters out
double trouble, and I don't know who's the double, who's
the trouble there? But we did our little double trouble thing,
and we always each other and told each other it
was up to us to win the game, up us
to make the plays. And when we enjoyed that, we
enjoyed the pressure, if you want to call it, we
enjoyed it. We enjoyed having a moment. I interviewed Walter
Payton a couple a couple of years before he died,
(07:47):
and he said to me that he had a personal slogan.
He said that there was always this little voice inside
of him that said, you can you can do better,
you can do better, you can do better. I've interviewed
Jerry Rice and he said he has a voice inside
him saying, never give up, never give up. Do you
have some sort of a Michael a personal model or
it was just that it was always up to me,
(08:08):
you know what I I mean when I stepped on always
up to you, It's up do you. When the game
is up to you, Gotta make the players up to you.
Make the play to win. The games up you and
it always ring you win. You gotta make the players
up to you, gotta make the play. You know, some
people go out and and it's a team sport in
the same in the South Sulf. When you said, but
I always I felt that it was up to me
to make the play. It's up that. I was fortunate
up to win championships, you know, in college and in
(08:29):
the NFL. But I always had that thought, it's up
to you. You gotta make the play. You gotta make
the play to win the game. I was at a
coach's competition committee meeting once and they were talking about
offensive passengers and they were talking about the Michael Irvine rule.
Do you know what I'm talking about? You explain that,
you know, And I was. I was with John Matten
(08:51):
a couple of weeks ago, and I was telling him
about it. You know how you come in those meetings
before the game, you meet with the guys who's doing
the game television broadcast. Yeah, I mean with him before
the game. And I figured, you know, okay, it's Johnny.
I'll help him out. I give some insight to the
things that I'm doing on the field. I'm starting explaining
him about how I get open. You know, Michael, you're
not that fast. How do you get separation? What I'm saying,
I'm running. Sometimes I catch a guy, feel him on me,
(09:11):
so I may chuck him at the end of the
I know the ball's coming out, chuck him right quick,
you know. And I'm just just pween me, John, just
pween you and I you know what I'm saying. Give
you a couple of things. You can say some things
on TV. Don't run with it like you ran with it.
I mean he ran with Let me show you what
Michael's doing out. This is how he's getting older. This
is illegal. And then the next year they come out
with these new rules, man, like you can't be doing
(09:32):
the chucks, and I'm like, man, I tried to share
something with him, but but that was part of the game.
I like the physical part of the game. I like,
I could never out run anybody, so I wanted to
keep you on my help at the last minute. So
when you're going out of the pattern, you're you don't
care about the separation. You don't even want it. I
don't want to separation. I don't know. I don't want
to separate. I don't want it early. I want separation late,
right before the ball game. So writes the balls coming
(09:53):
and you give the guy that. It's kind of like, uh,
what do they thing they call when those race cars
following each other. I try to chuck him drafting right,
I come chuck him. He pushes me up and knock
himself back, and I'm right on the ball. It was
I thought it was always playing within the framework of
the rules. But it's interesting that being a wide receiver,
the word that's associated with you is warrior, and that's
(10:14):
not really when you think of a wide receiver, you
think about performer, an athlete. Contact. Yeah, yeah, and I
wanted to contac at least I wanted everybody to think
I wanted to contact. They hurt me too. Those hits
hurt me too. Like I would walk by a dB
uh before the game. You know, he's all psyched out,
and I'm trying to psyche him out. I really don't
want him hit me as hard as you're gonnahit him.
But I walked by and say, you know, I'm willing
(10:36):
to make a trade. That's what's talking about. Michael. You're
ready to play. Do your red plass ready, I'm willing
to trade the trade. What I'm willing to trade the
reception baby for your concussion. If you're gonna give me
the concussion, I'll take along with Let get the kids.
So all right, all right, I'll see y'all see, you know,
And they thought they really, you know, they don't want
to hit, that you want to take a hit because
now you know they're not knocking you off of the game.
And they really, I really didn't want to hit. I
(10:56):
just wanted him to think that I that I was
willing to make the trade. So this is what's really
interesting about Irvin. He wasn't just trying to beat you
physically on the yield. He wanted to dominate his opponents
mentally as well. He was always seemingly playing mind games
looking for that extra edge. He wasn't the first, nor
will he be the last, outspoken, larger than life personality,
(11:19):
but he certainly perfected the genre, especially amongst wide receivers.
When we come back, more of Irvin's cerebral side, and
he also recalls a not so inspirational pregame speech from
Tom Landry. You want to hear this, stay tuned, Welcome
back to Tales from the Vault. As you may have
(11:41):
noticed throughout our series, Steve had this way of getting
his subjects to open up, so you'd sit there and think, well,
he doesn't need to push very hard with Michael Irvin.
But you know what, Irvin could get philosophical about things.
For all his bravado and bluster, not to mention his
pension for courting controversy, Irvin is a bit of a thinker.
(12:02):
In the upcoming segment, he gets introspective with Steve and
digs into some of the low points of his career.
Another word that I've heard you use a lot is loyalty.
You talk about football is built on loyalty. The game
is built on loyalty. What did you mean by that? What?
And that's why I talked to the kids the other
(12:23):
day and I was telling them, you know, it's not
up to you when you're on the football field. If
if you're in a boxing ring, man, I'm boxing somebody.
If I want to quit, like a lot of deer does.
If I want to quit whatever, it's up to me.
You know what I mean. I'm out here by myself.
But now if I won a football field and I
want to quit, I I got a responsibility to other
ten guys is playing right now on that field with
me at that time in office. And I gotta be
(12:43):
loyal to those guys when I'm tired. If I'm tired,
I gotta, I gotta suck it up because I gotta.
I gotta make a play for them. If it's if
it's me catching the ball after Troy throw it, uh,
if it's me making a block went in it for
him to run. I I gotta make sure I have
that loyalty them guys that every place I get them all,
I got to deserve that. What is the greatest example
of loyalty, Michael, that you can thank that was shown
(13:03):
towards you during your career, That that that someone that
really that there's an example of loyalty. There's been many.
There's been millions examples given given to me from from
Cowboy Organization, from Jerry Jones. I mean, Jerry has been
there with me in the whole way, even when things
haven't been so good. Jared's always you know, he's been
right this Michael, no matter what I'm here with you, you
you know what I'm saying, and and and and that
(13:25):
for me has been great um, I say often, Uh,
there's no place I'd rather have played football then than
in in in Dallas and for the Dallas Cowboys, and
quite honestly for Jared Jones. And I don't know if
people gonna really take today because there's a whole lot
of people to take this area. But but but jar
has been a great owner for me. When when when
you play and your personality now to the public, I mean,
(13:47):
you're not only a great player, but very provocative, sometimes
controversial personality that sometimes most controversy with his Okay, what
do you think, Michael, is the public's biggest misperception of
you something that you've been reading about or seeing on television.
You hear it and you say, you know that that's wrong,
That's not the way I am. I don't know. I
really don't, because then I'll be honest with Steve. Outside
(14:09):
of watching your stuff, man NFL, I don't watch one's TV.
I don't watch I may watch a little Sports Center,
but much of it. I don't read, and I don't
read much of the people. But your stuff, that's all
I love. Why all I do? I have no joke.
I get a little, you know, little classic challenge that
always show all your stuff, and that's all I want.
But you think of all that that in your career,
that there's must have been times where you felt, you know,
(14:31):
there's something said about you that it was an ingusted
that isn't right, that this is not I'm not this
way that that the Michael Irvin, you know, the party guy,
this guy that guy I mean, or is that reputation?
Is that the way you really are? And this is
my point, s I don't know what. I don't know
what it is. I really don't know what's totally saying.
And I'm saying I'm out in the left field on it.
And I'm not not not that it's a bad thing.
(14:52):
It's just that, quite honestly, I try not to listen
to what most people would say about me, most people
that have never have never met me. Anyway, you know
what I'm saying, I got and it's it's the way
I gotta because I gotta keep able to keep my
head up and keep going. Now, if I sit there
and listen to too much of it, I would imagine
it'll get me down. And I was spending most of
my time defending myself there whoa wait a meet it
(15:14):
that's not true. So I've been trying to keep my
head about it, quite honestly, and enjoy the things that
I can enjoy, and and quite quite honestly, not paying
attention to the things that I only enjoy. If you
if we go back and look at your career and
we went through all of our film library and we
can only pick one play that was gonna be a resume, well,
(15:34):
Michael Irvin, and this is the only thing. It's gonna
be left to your career, and hundreds of years from now,
someone wants to punch up, let's say on the internet,
and Michael Irvin and it's one play, and this would
be the resume of what you stood for on a
football field. What what would you want to say? That's
a good yeah? What one play would it be? What
we play? I we have to I have to go
(15:55):
back to the super Bowl. I would have to go
back the Super Bowl. And I remember it's the first touchdown.
It was on a slant and I don't know why,
but it slant. I kind of like the think that
you know, slant for a virus. Either. It's the play
that most wide receivers don't want to run. It's a
tough play, you know. I remember my head press cut.
I went inside the guy called the ball winning end zone,
and for me, it was that's the one play that
sticks out of my head more than anything because I
(16:16):
remember at that time walking back after that play, walking
back to the sideline, thinking to myself, did I just
go touchdown in the Super Bowl? This is the Super Bowl.
Do you know how many of them guys that I
grew up with a watching this game right now? You know,
I mean it probably lies. I know him, I raised him,
you know, But it was the super Bowl. It's it's
the biggest it's the biggest stage ever. And I could
(16:38):
let that play stick out so much. I can't remember.
I can't never forget that playing and just the whole
surroundings of it. When when you look back at your career,
you have Emma and Troy and yourself, and I think
we want looked in the record book. And I don't
think there's ever been a combination running back quarterback receivers
from the same team that made the Pro Bowl as
often as you guys did. There must be some sort
(17:00):
of a an interesting relationship. You described that. It's incredible,
and you know, we talked about it when we just
recently started talking about it. But it's something incredible, cause
you don't often find that many guys on the team
that get along so well. I mean, we never had
problems with one another. I mean we had a true
mutual respect for one another and admiration for one another.
(17:20):
I'm probably Troy's biggest fan. You're not not just saying
it because I wanted to throw me the ball, even
though I do want him and throw me all the balls.
But I really am. And he's one of my greatest friends.
I mean, and if you ask me now, um, since
every type, that's the guy talked to most on the team,
it's Troy, you know. And we just had such we
have such a great relationship, such a great friendship. And
I enjoyed playing for him. I mean it was I
(17:41):
was telling I was telling the team one that's you
know what, you what it's like for a receiver. Your
job is not just to make a play, but to
make sure you make the play for Troy. That's that's
your man towards my right hand man. My job was
to make the play for him. And and and there's
no there's no doubt I wouldn't I man, I just
enjoy playing with him. I enjoyed playing with him. Just
a quick popping here to remind you that in those days,
(18:02):
remember these three were kind of Madonna. Just one name
is all you needed. So Michael, Troy and Emmett they
coined the Moniker, the Triplets, and really they were the
tem played for the wide receiver, quarterback running back combination
that all teams seemed to want today on offense. But
(18:22):
it's easy to forget that Irvin began his career before
any of them were Cowboys. In fact, he was actually
the last first round pick made by the Cowboys of
the previous regime, you know, the days of Tom Landry,
Gil Brand, and Tech Shram. In fact, Irvin's rookie year
he had Herschel Walker as his running back, Steve Ploras
(18:44):
his quarterback, and of course Landry as his head coach.
The other thing was interesting to me is that the
coaches that you've played for, you played for Landry, right,
you played for one year for Landry, and you played
with Jimmy and em Barried. Now I wanted to take
each one of those coaches. All right, let's start with
with with coach Landry always the best and the worst
(19:05):
things about playing for for for Coach Landing, Well, the
best thing was that it was coach lander and I
was had been in all just watching them. I was
in all the Coach land just looking at him, and
I mean, it's just the man I've been watching growing up.
I mean since you know, growing up in Miami, because
all you did, all you got was the Dolphins or
either the Cowboys. Everybody got the Cowboys. So you know,
I'm watching coach Landro and I'm watching up and down
(19:26):
the sideline and I couldn't believe that I was playing
for Coach Landry. Now, I remember that first year, we
weren't that good, you know what I mean, we weren't
that I think we finished like three and thirteen. And
the worst thing was probably I was just so built
up waiting on that first pregame speech. I remember looking
over as watching Keen Norton and we Ken knowing that
I just got drafted and we were so built no
(19:46):
waiting on their first pregame speech. And I think Coach
Landro kind of knew weren't that good of a football
team because the whole pregame speech was like, let's just
go ouhead and try to keep with staying close fellas.
And I was like, wait a minute, it's from your coach.
Been't waiting all my life to be in this locker room.
What do you mean trying to g Of course we
would not have got killed. You know I'm saying, but
(20:08):
that's pretty much all I remember about coaches. Let me
sweat before we get to the other coaches. When you
came in to the NFL, Michael, was there ever any
self doubt? Did you ever get in a situation where
you just said, jeez, I don't know whether I couldn't
make it here? Or were you always really that confident
in your ability that you were gonna not only play,
but but I was always coming to my ability that
(20:30):
I was gonna play. And man, I always thought I
always knew I would play in the league. Um, And
it was first few years I was like, man, I
don't know, you know, I kind of I knew I
was great. I know it's gonna be good enough to play,
and I wanted to play at a great level. But
I always worried after those first few years we didn't
do so well. I like, man, maybe these things a
little tougher than I told you. I need to go
back to the drawing board and all season workouts and
(20:50):
try to figure it out, because you know, I just
felt like it always thought it was up to me
to make the play. It was up to me. But
now I was realizing and I was sitting on that
bench and cry. Sometime after we lose and Nate knew
would come by. Pat On here told young rookie, this
league came win by yourself. We need help, you know.
So I'm like, well, maybe maybe maybe we do need
some help out here. Well, now, looking at back in
(21:13):
your career, what part of your career you might have
answered this already? Did you need to show the most
perseverance the time in your career that when you really
had to dig down And let me tell you what
broke me down. I had a knee operation in eighty nine,
I think it was eighty nine, a second year in
the league, and I'm talking about from that we had
we weren't winning an eight eighty nine first few games
(21:34):
of the year where things weren't going good, and it
took me. It took and I'm going in this knee operation,
it's a c L and I'm thinking, you know, I
work harder than everybody else. You tell me what to do,
I'll do it. And I figured, I'll going here, bounce
right back. I'll wait next day. And I couldn't move
my leg on it. Whoa wait a minute, I'm a
bounce right back if I can't get out here wrong,
you know, I couldn't alonger move my leg. And I
(21:54):
mean that that took something for me. It might have to.
It took me two years to come back from that,
just to get over just just just just the middle,
just the depression, everything. It really hit me for it
hard um going through the knee surgery. Looking back on
your talent as a as a as a wide receiver,
what do you think Michael's was your greatest asset Mike? Mike, competitiveness,
(22:17):
just being competitive. I enjoyed compete. I figured and competing.
When you say compete, I mean it's it's the whole game.
It's the psyche of the whole game. Is the physical part.
I enjoyed the psyche. I enjoyed it all. I just
wanted to compete. Uh. I never thought if I just
lined up, I was gonna out run anybody. I never
thought I was gonna, you know, stronger than anybody, but
when I put it all together, you know I can
(22:38):
make plays. And then that was my thing. I walked
in saying, I know, I I about trained everybody. I
ran hard, I ran longer, so I should be better.
The law said, I supposed to be better if you
run it, if you work hard, and everybody, you're supposed
to be better. So I'm going in here and I'm
gonna be the best. And that's just kind of attitude
I took. When when you look back into your career, now,
what's is there one moment that you're least likely to
(23:00):
forget that when you think of all that, how many
years have you did you play? I play at twelve
years almost twelve years. Is there one moment that, uh,
that you think you're at least likely to forget? And
it might not have happened on the field, Maybe it
was something in the you know, in the in the
locker room or in the tunnel before the game or
after the game, you know what, And let me be
honest with you, the moment is the moment I laid
(23:22):
on in on carpet in Philadelphia. It was the last
player I played. I mean that that that that that
hit me when when I'm thinking that it's it's you know,
I remember laying on that carpet, and you gotta understand
and realize that for every player, I don't care whoever,
he says, every player going on that feels his biggest
fears and the other thing, Okay, I get paralyzed in
every place. You gotta think about it every before. You're
(23:43):
gonna feel you. I don't care who you are. I
don't care how tough you are, how much you bivaldo,
you're pushing on yourself. You're gonna you want to think
about one play could be in it. You could be
to play and and and just for a moment I
laid on that field, that one play was that played
for me? I was like, whoa. You know, all these
years of thinking about it, I couldn't believe it was
really that that it was. You couldn't see anything, I
(24:04):
couldn't feel anything. I lay on that car and it
was so amaze because you know, back to me being
I'm the tough guy. I took the hit and it
seemed like much of a head. And I get up,
you know, like yeah, yeah, yeah, get up, baby, everybody
get up. And then somebody said movie later said I did.
They said no movie. I was like, whoa wait a
minute here, this's just kind of this is crucial. It
was crucial, and I remember saying it, then if you
(24:27):
ever get up and if you ever get up again,
I don't know, if you ever get back down here again,
you know like that. I think that was the moment,
was like, this is it? So that's when you decided.
When did you just saw your retire? Well, I I
decided that moment in my head. I was scared. I was,
you know, scared and everything. But then you know, of
course I go back and then look at the film, like, oh,
maybe that's not so bad. Now I want to play again.
(24:49):
You know, I'm trying to rationalize everything out. You know,
I was still paralleled fifteen twenty minutes. What I'm saying,
you're getting hand to it. You can play again. And
I was ready to play again. But then of course
my wife he was like, no, I don't think you
should and and I don't you know, for me wrestling
to be totally honesty, I think I'll still be playing,
but I don't. I don't know if I can put
them through it watching me playing. One end of the
(25:11):
next players, the last hit and I don't know if
Troy go on hould and call a slant, and I'll
get scared and run out, just thinking like, no, I'm
not going across that melody anymore. So I just figured
fall in tense purposes. Maybe it's it's it's the best
way to walk away. Irvin was smart enough to know
that you can't play the game scared, and so just
like that, his career was over. But make no mistake,
(25:32):
the circumstances in Philadelphia were ugly. And look this pains
me from a personal perspective, since I am a Philadelphia native.
We're not just talking about booing Santa Claus, which of
course the Philadelphia fans did, but they actually cheered when
they realized that Irvin was down and hurt and let
(25:53):
out a roar that could only be categorized as derisive.
As he was carried off on a stretcher and wheeled
to the waiting ambulance. It was irvin And final catch
in the NFL. So if you can picture it, he
ran a slant. Aikman connected with him perfectly, as they
had done like clockwork over the years, and two defensive
(26:14):
backs converged so neither hit looked especially egregious, but it
was the way that Irvin's head was driven into the
veteran stadium turf. It was at an angle that caused
his neck to twist and resulted in swelling of his vertebrae.
He laid there motionless for multiple minutes, ultimately sustaining a
(26:35):
non life threatening cervical spinal cord injury. On July eleven,
two Urvan announced his retirement. He was just thirty three
years old at the time, and he owned or was
tied for twenty franchise receiving records. When we come back,
Irvin reflects more in his career, including what it was
(26:55):
like to play for Jimmy Johnson and Barry Switzer. Welcome
back to Tales from the Vault. When Michael Irvin retired
in two thousand, he was the last player in the
NFL to have actually played for Tom Landry, But the
bulk of Irvin's career he was playing for Jimmy Johnson,
(27:16):
his college coach from Miami, with whom he won a
national title in and of course, he also played for
Barry Switzer with the Cowboys. Now, if you listen to
the Troy Aikman episode of this podcast, earlier in the year,
and feel free to go back and check it out
if you haven't. You know that Troy never exactly embraced
the lucy goosey Switzer as a head coach. But Michael
(27:39):
Irvin felt differently. Let's go back to the coaches, the
best and the worst about Jimmy, oh man, let me
I can give you that probably one one whole story.
And I and then I was was talking about that earlier.
I said, Jimmy was a jim was a great coach,
great coach, great great great mind games and Jamie would
do things like I remember Jimmy before. You know, football
(28:00):
and coaching all it puts stress on the whole family
because to your way, a lot your time. You spent
a lot of time coaching, and you spend a lot
of time away from the family. So Jimmy before the season,
will call all the players together, bring your wives and
all your girlfriends. So bring your wives in, your girlfriends.
We're gonna have a get together, right, and we would
all get together and he'll sit there and he'll take
(28:22):
us some nice place, bringing nice spread out. We're all
sitting and eat and eat, having a nice time, having
a nice meal and Jimmy get up on him, get
up on in the comm and say, hey, we're family here.
I just wanted to be everybody to get together. So
now y'all can leave us alone. We can. We'll get
back to being your husband and your boyfriends. And about
seven months we got some football to play, you know,
and next day we're off to camp. But you don't
(28:43):
see your family about seven months. So you know, Jimmy
was he was smart with that. You know. Now what
about that Barry? I love Barry, I love but I
felt sorry for Barry because I don't I don't know
they did him treated him um fairly in Dallas. You know,
Beary won a Super Bowl, but they were hard on
Barry Man. Barry. Barry was a players coach. He was
(29:03):
ultimate players coach. I think people took advantage of what
do you mean want to say, Michael say, guys, some
players coach watch because he didn't practice your heart, no, no, no, no,
he practiced by when I said that, he left, he
left the coaching up to the existence, which is really
the job of assistance coaching. He's the overseas things. That's
what he coaches do. He oversee. He had trusting his assistance,
(29:24):
and he had trust in his players. He said, listen,
I'm gonna treat you like him. Man, go bill man.
The thing is the problem is there's some players out
there who he's being treated like a man, and don't
take it like a man. You know, he's said, the
guys paying me four million dollars and you don't have
to tell me to work out. I'm gonna do my
work it out. If you're paying me the account of money,
I'm gonna go get my job done. You're paying guys
that kind of money and you're treating them like a man.
(29:45):
Look compaying you for for a good day's work. Go
give me a good day's work. Some guys just want
to back up to that one the tunnel, want to
get the paycheck. Let me sneak on back up to
the winner. They mean, they're taking advantage of it. It's
not his fault, you know. It's like he said, one time,
I gotta pay a guy three four million dollars to
play football. They pay another guy million dollars to make
him play. I mean, how my sisters have you know?
He he was He was a great coach. He treated
(30:07):
people like me um and and and the unfortunatelything when
some people took advantage of Now you were a leader
on that team, where there ever any times that you
had to pull someone aside, a player, aside, a rookie
or something and just and say, look, you're not cooking out,
you're not doing this, You're not doing this is part
you know, because part of the everything. Yeah, it was
my road. I didn't have any problem with it when
(30:28):
and it goes back. My thing is that not only
was the time only I could put those guys aside
in those fourth quarters and when I need those guys
that make sure I gave him my time in the
off season, and those off season time came those those rookies,
they have a real even in their town and and
then little sit even I'll make sure I go to
those evenge you know, guys like me, they'll be afraid
to come, said, Michael, can you come to my videos
(30:50):
like a golf tournament or golf tournament, you got a
basketball tournament and the basketball charity basketball, I'm gonna I'm
gonna be there. I'm gonna be there for you, you
know what I'm saying. But the fourth quarter come, I'm
gonna look you right now, I say Hey, look here,
I got a family fee let's make the plays out.
It know I was there for you. You know, it's
it's the moment, and that that's when they'll go back.
They'll remember those moments that I was there for them.
(31:10):
Now if I'm never there for them. And I walk
around the locker room and they're looking at me like, hey,
that's Michael. You know, there's Troy. Hey, there's them it
and and then a fourth quarter coming, that's the first
time I go say something that boy, Come on, what
you're doing. He's gonna say, what are you're messing with
me for? You know what? Making millions? You gonna win
the game. You know you never cared about me before.
Don't come like you care about me now. So the
important thing is the leader I thought for me was
(31:31):
to make sure I spend time with those guys in
the off season and time with those guys after practice
to make sure they know I care about them. So
you know, when the time came I need to get
in the year. I had every right to get in
there giving them everything. I got in one of their
head to give me everything, and they had sa Let's
say we had a bunch of your old teammates sitting
over here in the corner, and you knew that they
were talking about you. What would you hope that they
(31:52):
would be saying, Man, I know what they'll be saying,
saying some of everything right now. I'm looking over there
over there, And you gotta imagine I had quite quite
a few characters. Now. I played with you know, Haley,
Nate Newton. Have you had Nat in there? Man? Man,
(32:13):
it'll be some working And I played with interview with Na. Man.
I'm telling you you won't forget it, forget it right.
And that's how it is. And I mean and it's
a blessing. I mean we we we played and we
(32:33):
want like that that that help us. I mean, you
know you couldn't go on that field and come back
in that lockeroom. You'd be scared to come in the
locker room if you didn't play right, because you know
they child's gonna tell and tell you. Charles Hayley what, man,
charl Oh, I would I couldn't. I couln't even say
you could use the stuff. You couldn't even use the
stuff I could tell. I wish I could tell you
someone Charles Hayley. There was another character man, but I
(32:54):
played with him. Man, I played with some great guys, Man,
some great guys that enjoy the game. I mean enjoyed
the game on the field off to feel the enjoyed
the game altogether. What do you think, Michael, is the
biggest problem that FEL players have today. Uh, that's a
good question. And I don't know, because Steve I said,
I don't know, because I really I refused to let
(33:14):
things become a problem a lot of times. I mean,
my my thing, my might be is problem. Really, my
whole career is just having time for my family. And
you you waste so much, and sometimes you do get
you get distracted, and I mean you can distracted with things, women,
all this stuff. You get that career, Mike, there were
times that that you were in situations did the field,
(33:35):
off the field, did you ever have a few little voice,
like a little I said, Hey, you know, I don't
know whether I should be with these people or in
this situation. Yeah, I mean, but now the time times,
let's let's say you were in a situation at a
party and and or with the wrong kind of people.
(33:56):
Did you know in that situation and hey, if if
somebody comes in here and they say, hey, this is right, right,
is going on in trouble. I'm in trouble. You stay
right there. So yeah, I don't listen. If you if
you thought you were gonna get caught, you wouldn't be
there in the first place. Nobody ever think they're gonna
get caught. That's that's the problem, you know what I mean.
(34:16):
It's like I could have if I have a drink,
get in my car. I'm like, I know I shouldn't
be drinking a guy and this getting I'm driving this
comet making home. I'll be okay. And then when you
get caught, like, why did I do that? That was stupid?
I mean, I knew I was wrong. You know. Was
always after you get caught, you know that was. But
I shouldn't have been there. It was. Now everybody's gonna
be saying this, and everybody's gonna be doing this. Yeah,
(34:37):
you kick yourself and there you kick yourself in the
head twenty times, you kick yourself twenty times afterwards, But
at the time, you know, yeah, in it, yeah, it
yere in it, the fast world, everything in it, and
you just don't feel you know, I'll be okay, I
won't get caught what Irvan is referring to and what
he's about to get integrated to tail about is the
arrest and trial for cocaine possession. He was arrested in
(35:00):
a suburban Dallas motel room on March fourth of that
year after a police raid turned up more than ten
grams of cocaine and a small quantity of marijuana. The
night of his arrest, Irvin was celebrating his thirtieth birthday
with a former teammate and two topless dancers. Irvin served
no jail time after pleading no contest to second degree
(35:23):
felony cocaine possession in exchange for four years deferred probation,
a ten thousand dollar fine, and dismissal of misdemeanor marijuana
possession charges. Look, it's an understatement to say that Irvin
has had numerous brushes with the law, and he's been
forthcoming about his foibles. In fact, he and I have
(35:43):
discussed quite frankly over the years that he is cognizant
that he played in an era where there were no
camera phones, and he's very grateful for it. As he
told me one time, if there was social media back
when I played, I'd probably be dead or in jail.
What's the hardest apology that you ever had to make
in your life? You know what, when I when I
(36:04):
got in my situation in Dallas, um quite unst and
I remember my apologize after after I had my trial
and my apologize, apologize to the people. But the whole
while I was thinking about it was an apology to
my father. You know, my father was was was my
building black My father was my world. And he had
passed and I had taken his name and taken it
through something. You know, his name Irving. Regardless of what
(36:25):
the world think that he was a proud man. I
looked at him as a proud man. I saw him
that way, and he helped, He helped held Irving that
name helped held it. He did a great job of
holding and he helped held it well. And I took
that through something that he that he didn't deserve, um
with with the trial and doubts and and and for me,
that was tough. You know. I went to my wife
to apologize after that. She you know the first thing
she said, she made me feel horrible. I'm I'm I'm
(36:47):
coming to her. I'm ready to boo cry. I was
wrong I'm sorry, and she just looked at me and say,
I'm fine, you make a peace with God. I'm like,
don't say that. Argue with me here, you know what
I mean, Let's fight a little bit, Let's do something.
You make it hard when you just said you make
your peace with God. I'm like, lo, you know I
was wrong. You know I'm really all right. But but
but but basically it was it was just you know
(37:08):
what I mean really and I sat there. I remember
thinking that day, thinking about my father and my father
he was just such a great man. You know, my
father was a roof and a minister, and he deserved
that in that gave him that day. I want to
ask you, did you ever have to apologize to your
teammates though, I mean when when you know some of
those problems, because I mean, if I was your team,
I said gotta mi, Michael can't play this season or
something like that, because the troubles was theever situation, you know,
(37:32):
not not really not in my teammates. Um, I apologize
to him, apologized. I remember when I spending those first
five games that's apologized to him for that. But but
never I feel they never It made me feel like
that you know, my teammates, believe it or not, there
was a lot of times that I shouldn't have been
the place I should have been able it with me.
I just was one got called. So they kind of
(37:52):
almost understood to be honest with you, and and and
and they were good. They were really good about it.
And I guess they probably think that I took a
good badger and from from the public that I didn't
need any from them, when when we're sitting here talking
about their It's there any topic that you that that
if we brought up that you said I don't want
to talk about. Is there anything that I don't mind
talking about anything? Anything that has gone on in my
(38:12):
life has went on in my life. I mean, what
am I to say that I don't want to talk
about it. I don't have a problem talking about anything.
What would be if we're gonna say, like you're if
I was gonna ask you what the biggest regret that
you've got. We've talked about all the high points of
your career, and what would be something that you'd say, jeez,
if I had it to do over again, you know
what I remember sitting on the sideline, Um, I think
(38:33):
it's ninety six and I was crying after the game.
We got blown out by the Giants of Philadelphia, last
game of the season, and I remember thinking so bad
that I really because right after that Super Bowl, it's
when I had my problems, when I had my situation
in the hotel and everything, and I remember just thinking, God,
I took something away from Dallas there, because that thing
overtook Dallas. That the whole situation is so it took
(38:53):
and it was right in the middle of a Super
Bowl celebration. We never really had a chance to finished
celebrating winning the Super Bowl, and it happened in March.
We just wanted Super Bowl, I guess in late January.
It's like I never really had a chance to finish,
finish it, just enjoy celebrating the Super Bowl. And that
took something away from me that I regret. I regret
going through. I regret taking Dallas story. I remember sitting
on the sideline crying because we had a horrible season,
(39:16):
and I just I tried so hard. I couldn't. I
want so bad, just give him another super Bowl, something,
just something else to celebrate someone. You try to do
it again, and I could never get it done. Was
there ever a time in your life that you felt
it was like you're totally out of control. I mean
their time where everything was just happening so fast and
this side and that that you just I just I
don't know what I was about of control, totally felt
(39:38):
that we toldly out of control. You know, I always
I kept level ground. I'm blessed with a good wife,
you know. I mean, I got a woman that's that's
been there, so that's so that's good. But uh, I
don't feel like I've ever been totally like just lost.
And like I said, I never really got caught up
in a lot of things todent. I mean there was
times I would imagine it was coming up with things
boom boomer, I mean one out, another coming on TV,
and and and I just know And like I said,
(40:00):
I never watched it. Now, if I would have been
glued in, tuned into it all the time, I probably
would have put a bullet in brain. Man. I don't know.
From what I heard, they ran it pretty good and
ran me pretty rampant with it. So there's one thing.
I know we heard a here that you were I
forget what it was. But but then it was totally wrong,
and you would a lawsuit against the station exactly. That's why,
that's why, That's exactly my point. That's what I'm saying.
I mean, no, wait a minute now, not just that.
(40:21):
And then there there was a rate thing that I
supposed to had a rate the girl I had done
her head with a camera and glass. This coming from
and I was, you know, it was excuse me, it
was so many things coming out so fast, That's exactly.
But I didn't want to pay attention to it. But
I knew, I knew the one thing happened I was
in that hotel. Everything else after that was it was
just a bunch of it is and it just hit Michael.
(40:45):
Wasn't true. I don't remember anything that was true after
As Michael did this I supposed to doing my trial
took some wind. I mean, he had me out to
like Gotti, you know what I'm saying. But what about
what's the worst emotional pain that you ever suffered playing football?
I mean we talked about the physical one. You know,
it used to hurt me. I mean hurt me. I
don't know why I could when I was playing with Jimmy,
(41:06):
even in college in Miami or and it's a Dallas
And I think about this today. Sometimes. I used to
watch and we were losing the game, and I would
watch Jimmy. I would stand behind him. He probably got
small films. You see me just behind Jimmy leeking and
we're losing. And I watched Jimmy and it would hurt
me because it looked like it was killing him. I
mean it was like it was like Jimmy was like,
(41:26):
I'm going home to night to kill myself. I was
like being out feels. I felt so bad for Jimmy.
You know, I hate losing, but I I feel like
I met somebody I know he hated losing worse than
I didn't. He wasn't even on the field, and I
was like, I mean he is just killing him. I
mean it looked like it killed him. And I that's
the pain that I remember most, just any time we lost,
just looking at him and it's like he don't know
what he's gonna do. I just felt bad for him.
(41:48):
When um to switch your question, what's what's the most
meaningful compliment Michael that you've ever received or what's the
nicest thing that anyone's ever said to you? Uh? On
the field, just just playing the game. Uh, probably the
greatest thing everyone ever said. It's just whenever I came,
(42:09):
I came to play. Whenever I was there, Okay, I
came to play. Michael always come to play, you know,
and you here now. And that's the one thing I
think when I say now, people said, well, how would
you want to be remembered just that when I played,
you know, in football, Like, I don't let you be
I ever want you to remember me when I was
like my personal life, my personal life, I don't you
have to remember For the fans of the people that
watched me play, I just I just want you to
(42:29):
know that, Hey, whenever I played, I gave it my all.
You know what I mean. If you're a fan of
Dallas Cowboy, that mean I was playing for you and
I gave it my all. And that's the only way
you want to remember. And I think that's the greatest
thing that anyone has ever said. Man, whatever Michael play,
he gave it is all you. The last two questions
I had to that you talked. You said once that
I think when you were still playing that you said
that somebody asked you about to evaluate your career and
(42:51):
you said, well, you know I'm gonna have I don't
have time to smell the roses. That was the experience.
I never had time while I was in the game.
You never it was. It was always it was always going.
We were always going, you know. And I trained a
great deal. I mean training the off season. I really trained,
so you But now I've been reflecting and smelling the
roses and even I mean it's been great. I've been
(43:12):
flying to cities to do event so even like come
talk to you. I mean, I've been in Philadelphia a
hundred times. I never saw Philadelphia. You know. When I
got here, I was all about I want to play.
I don't care think I'm driving by things. I've never
seen anything the body would tell about. I mean, Washington,
Daryl Green, I got darl Green, you know what, Jason.
(43:32):
I thought about those guys from the time I got
on the airplane, from the time the week started. All weeks.
So now I get to smell the rosers. I'm in cities.
Now I get the visitor. I see things. I'm like, man,
how long that's been there? You know, I've been in
the city twenty times and I never saw the city. Um,
so that so now I'm getting the opportunity to smell
the roses. Yes, what do you what do you think
the football's taught you? What do you look back at
(43:53):
your career? Footballs It gives you great lessons to life.
And the greatest football is about never giving up. And
that's what I smile asked me the other day. What
do you tell your kids, Michael? You know you you're
being an athlete and being a role model. What do
you tell your kids? What I tell my kids? Hey,
look daddy made mistakes. Look You're gonna make mistakes. That's okay.
Get back up in his fight again. That's the greatest
(44:14):
thing football has talked to you. I mean, football has
always talked to you. Hey, no matter how bad you
got beat, no matter how bad somebody beat you, now
it will be in next week. Get back up on
this fight again. I can't ask for a better ending
than that. Michael Irvin can be a polarizing figure, but
I've always found him to be genuine and truly grateful
for the number of chances he's had on the field
(44:35):
and in the TV world. In August of two thou seven,
he was inducted into the Pro Football Hall of fame.
In a tearful, emotional speech, he acknowledged his personal shortcomings
as well as those who supported him throughout his trials
literally and tribulations. Why must I go through so many
(44:56):
peaks and valleys? I wanted to stand in front of
my boys and say do it like you're dad, like
any proud dead would want to. I must I go
through so much? And at that moment a voice came
(45:17):
over me and he said, look, get up and don't
ever give up. In the years since his retirement, despite
being a national NFL commentator, Urvan's never shy about showing
his continued Cowboys fandom, as well as his disappointment when
(45:38):
they underachieve as they did this season. His comments about
their playoff chances, their head coach, their quarterback always seemed
to bubble to the surface every year, and his opinions
have an outsize influence still in Dallas. Next week we
bring you our final interview subject on Tales from the Vault.
(45:59):
It's part one of a truly remarkable interview that Steve
did in line with the legendary Al Davis. You will
not want to miss this. Thank you so much for listening.
I'm Andrea Kramer
Tales from the Vault is a production of the NFL
in partnership with I Heart Radio. Welcome to our latest
episode of NFL Films Tales from the Vault. I'm your host,
Hall of Fame journalist Andrea Kramer. It was when I
started my career at NFL Films as a producer, and
(00:26):
Steve Sable, the man who made NFL Films what it is,
was my boss and mentor. Steve was not just a
creative genius. He had a tremendous sense of curiosity. He
was a brilliant conversationalist, and it all combined to make
him an expert interviewer. This podcast showcases some of the
greatest interviews that he ever did, none of which have
(00:48):
ever been heard before in their entirety. The coolest part
for me about the show is that it's like a
time capsule and I get to guide you back in time. Today,
we head to the Vault for Steve's interview from the
year two thousand with the playmaker Michael Irvine. Yeah, Michael
(01:18):
Irvin has been a staple on television for over twenty
years ever since he retired. Love him or hate him,
there is no denying that if you look up the
word loquacious, you will see Michael's picture. And then, of
course there are the clothes. I actually just did a
show with Michael at this year's Super Bowl, and the
(01:38):
first thing that somebody said to me was, what exactly
is Michael Irvin wearing? But you know what, he's flash
and dash, and he's that way the way he looks,
and he's certainly that way the way he talks, and
he will talk about pretty much anything. So this interview
with Steven Michael took place just eight months after Irvin
(01:59):
retired from the NFL, and certainly no topic was off limits.
Steve delved into all areas of his career, both on
and off the field. You'll hear about how a conversation
with John Madden led to an NFL rule change. But
you'll also hear sincere contrition from Irvin about his arrest
(02:20):
and subsequent trial, a trial that I actually covered for
ESPN back then. And speaking of clothing, that's the trial
when Michael Irvin walked into the courthouse in a full
length for coat. Yep, that's an image I will never
get out of my mind. But look, we begin with
Steve and Michael talking football, particularly the NFC East. Remember,
(02:45):
back in the nineties, the NFC East was the division
in football, kind of like what the a f C
West is right now. In those days, a team from
the East won five Super Bowls. They were truly dominant.
And that's where we start with Michael and Steve. Of
all the teams that you played against, was for one
team that you really hated. I mean there was Huh,
(03:11):
what are you trying to say, it's one team? All
the teams I ever played one team? You know what?
And I gonna be honest with you. I think playing
when I played, I played in the NFC East, and
I think playing in the East, I mean really, and
even when the East was supposed to be down the
years that we want super Bowl, they city East was down.
The NFC East, Man, it was any game you played
in the East. I mean you go back of all
(03:32):
the years, and we had great teams, we win a
Super Bowl. We never beat anybody in the East by
more than three or five points. Man, I'm like, we
would go and playing in Philadelphia like garbage, We're gonna
go down here and blown. We just blew San Francisco
out right, so I'm figured we'll go blow blow Philadelphia
and we'll go out there. We got a thirteen team.
(03:53):
I'm like, man, what was that? You know what was
that was always tough to win? In Philadelphia? It was
always tough to win. And uh and in Washington because
those in in New York because those are the games
that we played every year. And it's like they all
their teams around the Cowboys and they always double And
I hate my stats with horrible. I hate playing in
the East because you know, they play you every week
and they always they build your team around you and
(04:14):
the double cover and I'm coming out of there with
five catches for forty or five yards or six catches
and I'm mad the whole week. You know, can't wait
to get to somebody. You mentioned stats, Michael. When you
look back on your career and it's a Hall of
Fame career, what to you is your favorite stat the
one thing that that you would want to honestly, honestly,
my Super Bowl ring, we can call um stat Are
(04:36):
you wearing I don't I have one. I have one
in the back room. You're not wearing your super Bowl ring? No,
because we'll go with it, won't go with the outfite
and you know my super Bowl. I don't people know
I want three. I don't need to show it off
like that. They know, you know, they know I played
for Dallas. It's America. You know it was Dallas. You
know we want we want three and you know that's
(04:56):
a great thing to baby said. I won three and
now and I'm retired. I just really the first time
I really thought about when winning three super Bowls and
that that was a great com So that's my greatest stad.
When you think back that first super Bowl, can you
think of what what you felt. I remember you talked
to Troy about this once and he said he remembered
first he said he couldn't he couldn't catch his breath. Man,
I'm I'm the first one was the one because I'm
(05:19):
emman and I We're walking out on the field and
it was it was a passadeen walking out and I'm
talking about and you have passaden. The people are right
down on you, I mean fasty must you know in
the NFL made they wanted they must have packed people
and it was like sorry, it was everywhere. And you
remember us walking out in and I that's the first
time my knees elbow buckled. I mean, all the years
(05:39):
that played football, I never really got my knees buckle.
I remember, even because I mean I walked out of
thet you felt that here's mustter buckled at the same
time too, because he looked at me like, yeah, like
I felt dead and I and it took, like I
don't took about the first quarter before I really just
caught myself again, like I felt like I had my legs.
It was, it was, it was amazing. You know, we
had that great shot even super so. I'm sure you've
(06:00):
seen it on ESPN hundreds of times. Your touchdown in
that game. We have a great super slow shot of
you catching the touchdowns. Which one I mean, you know
a couple. I caught a couple in the game, I think,
I remember when you tell me, I think the one
where I caught it a kind of dove across the
bad Oh man. That's that's when I finally got my
knees back after that play. And it took a while.
(06:22):
I mean, it was I've never and I never had
the feeling again. And we're playing two more Super Bowls
after that, but it was never quite that feeling. And
I think it was just you know we were young
and well I don't think we were supposed to be
there yet, and we popped up. Man, it was it
was quite a feeling. There's something I never forget. We
have a lot of shots of you and Emmett in
the tunnel before the game starts, and you two are
(06:44):
holding each other or you're hugging each other. That seems
like some sort of a pregame ritual. Well what were
you doing? Because we've got a lot of a lot
of types. Like our cameramen would always see that we
always walk out together. Yeah, we were always you know,
m and I are very close and uh, we always
put it on ourselves to win the games. It was
(07:04):
always up to us. You know, if if I lied,
if I lined about that and I saw those guys
dropping off in the covers, come on, you gotta run
the ball because I want to get my stats too.
You know, if if they got if they got too
many guys covering the you know, we got seven eight
guys um up front, so immage John and running the ball.
He's running good, then they'll bring the extra guy down.
I can get my catches. So we kind of just
kept it ready. We would always tell each other that
you know, we we did, uh, he was twenty two
(07:26):
hours eighty eight. You know, we had these posters out
double trouble, and I don't know who's the double, who's
the trouble there? But we did our little double trouble thing,
and we always each other and told each other it
was up to us to win the game, up us
to make the plays. And when we enjoyed that, we
enjoyed the pressure, if you want to call it, we
enjoyed it. We enjoyed having a moment. I interviewed Walter
Payton a couple a couple of years before he died,
(07:47):
and he said to me that he had a personal slogan.
He said that there was always this little voice inside
of him that said, you can you can do better,
you can do better, you can do better. I've interviewed
Jerry Rice and he said he has a voice inside
him saying, never give up, never give up. Do you
have some sort of a Michael a personal model or
it was just that it was always up to me,
(08:08):
you know what I I mean when I stepped on always
up to you, It's up do you. When the game
is up to you, Gotta make the players up to you.
Make the play to win. The games up you and
it always ring you win. You gotta make the players
up to you, gotta make the play. You know, some
people go out and and it's a team sport in
the same in the South Sulf. When you said, but
I always I felt that it was up to me
to make the play. It's up that. I was fortunate
up to win championships, you know, in college and in
(08:29):
the NFL. But I always had that thought, it's up
to you. You gotta make the play. You gotta make
the play to win the game. I was at a
coach's competition committee meeting once and they were talking about
offensive passengers and they were talking about the Michael Irvine rule.
Do you know what I'm talking about? You explain that,
you know, And I was. I was with John Matten
(08:51):
a couple of weeks ago, and I was telling him
about it. You know how you come in those meetings
before the game, you meet with the guys who's doing
the game television broadcast. Yeah, I mean with him before
the game. And I figured, you know, okay, it's Johnny.
I'll help him out. I give some insight to the
things that I'm doing on the field. I'm starting explaining
him about how I get open. You know, Michael, you're
not that fast. How do you get separation? What I'm saying,
I'm running. Sometimes I catch a guy, feel him on me,
(09:11):
so I may chuck him at the end of the
I know the ball's coming out, chuck him right quick,
you know. And I'm just just pween me, John, just
pween you and I you know what I'm saying. Give
you a couple of things. You can say some things
on TV. Don't run with it like you ran with it.
I mean he ran with Let me show you what
Michael's doing out. This is how he's getting older. This
is illegal. And then the next year they come out
with these new rules, man, like you can't be doing
(09:32):
the chucks, and I'm like, man, I tried to share
something with him, but but that was part of the game.
I like the physical part of the game. I like,
I could never out run anybody, so I wanted to
keep you on my help at the last minute. So
when you're going out of the pattern, you're you don't
care about the separation. You don't even want it. I
don't want to separation. I don't know. I don't want
to separate. I don't want it early. I want separation late,
right before the ball game. So writes the balls coming
(09:53):
and you give the guy that. It's kind of like, uh,
what do they thing they call when those race cars
following each other. I try to chuck him drafting right,
I come chuck him. He pushes me up and knock
himself back, and I'm right on the ball. It was
I thought it was always playing within the framework of
the rules. But it's interesting that being a wide receiver,
the word that's associated with you is warrior, and that's
(10:14):
not really when you think of a wide receiver, you
think about performer, an athlete. Contact. Yeah, yeah, and I
wanted to contac at least I wanted everybody to think
I wanted to contact. They hurt me too. Those hits
hurt me too. Like I would walk by a dB
uh before the game. You know, he's all psyched out,
and I'm trying to psyche him out. I really don't
want him hit me as hard as you're gonnahit him.
But I walked by and say, you know, I'm willing
(10:36):
to make a trade. That's what's talking about. Michael. You're
ready to play. Do your red plass ready, I'm willing
to trade the trade. What I'm willing to trade the
reception baby for your concussion. If you're gonna give me
the concussion, I'll take along with Let get the kids.
So all right, all right, I'll see y'all see, you know,
And they thought they really, you know, they don't want
to hit, that you want to take a hit because
now you know they're not knocking you off of the game.
And they really, I really didn't want to hit. I
(10:56):
just wanted him to think that I that I was
willing to make the trade. So this is what's really
interesting about Irvin. He wasn't just trying to beat you
physically on the yield. He wanted to dominate his opponents
mentally as well. He was always seemingly playing mind games
looking for that extra edge. He wasn't the first, nor
will he be the last, outspoken, larger than life personality,
(11:19):
but he certainly perfected the genre, especially amongst wide receivers.
When we come back, more of Irvin's cerebral side, and
he also recalls a not so inspirational pregame speech from
Tom Landry. You want to hear this, stay tuned, Welcome
back to Tales from the Vault. As you may have
(11:41):
noticed throughout our series, Steve had this way of getting
his subjects to open up, so you'd sit there and think, well,
he doesn't need to push very hard with Michael Irvin.
But you know what, Irvin could get philosophical about things.
For all his bravado and bluster, not to mention his
pension for courting controversy, Irvin is a bit of a thinker.
(12:02):
In the upcoming segment, he gets introspective with Steve and
digs into some of the low points of his career.
Another word that I've heard you use a lot is loyalty.
You talk about football is built on loyalty. The game
is built on loyalty. What did you mean by that? What?
And that's why I talked to the kids the other
(12:23):
day and I was telling them, you know, it's not
up to you when you're on the football field. If
if you're in a boxing ring, man, I'm boxing somebody.
If I want to quit, like a lot of deer does.
If I want to quit whatever, it's up to me.
You know what I mean. I'm out here by myself.
But now if I won a football field and I
want to quit, I I got a responsibility to other
ten guys is playing right now on that field with
me at that time in office. And I gotta be
(12:43):
loyal to those guys when I'm tired. If I'm tired,
I gotta, I gotta suck it up because I gotta.
I gotta make a play for them. If it's if
it's me catching the ball after Troy throw it, uh,
if it's me making a block went in it for
him to run. I I gotta make sure I have
that loyalty them guys that every place I get them all,
I got to deserve that. What is the greatest example
of loyalty, Michael, that you can thank that was shown
(13:03):
towards you during your career, That that that someone that
really that there's an example of loyalty. There's been many.
There's been millions examples given given to me from from
Cowboy Organization, from Jerry Jones. I mean, Jerry has been
there with me in the whole way, even when things
haven't been so good. Jared's always you know, he's been
right this Michael, no matter what I'm here with you, you
you know what I'm saying, and and and and that
(13:25):
for me has been great um, I say often, Uh,
there's no place I'd rather have played football then than
in in in Dallas and for the Dallas Cowboys, and
quite honestly for Jared Jones. And I don't know if
people gonna really take today because there's a whole lot
of people to take this area. But but but jar
has been a great owner for me. When when when
you play and your personality now to the public, I mean,
(13:47):
you're not only a great player, but very provocative, sometimes
controversial personality that sometimes most controversy with his Okay, what
do you think, Michael, is the public's biggest misperception of
you something that you've been reading about or seeing on television.
You hear it and you say, you know that that's wrong,
That's not the way I am. I don't know. I
really don't, because then I'll be honest with Steve. Outside
(14:09):
of watching your stuff, man NFL, I don't watch one's TV.
I don't watch I may watch a little Sports Center,
but much of it. I don't read, and I don't
read much of the people. But your stuff, that's all
I love. Why all I do? I have no joke.
I get a little, you know, little classic challenge that
always show all your stuff, and that's all I want.
But you think of all that that in your career,
that there's must have been times where you felt, you know,
(14:31):
there's something said about you that it was an ingusted
that isn't right, that this is not I'm not this
way that that the Michael Irvin, you know, the party guy,
this guy that guy I mean, or is that reputation?
Is that the way you really are? And this is
my point, s I don't know what. I don't know
what it is. I really don't know what's totally saying.
And I'm saying I'm out in the left field on it.
And I'm not not not that it's a bad thing.
(14:52):
It's just that, quite honestly, I try not to listen
to what most people would say about me, most people
that have never have never met me. Anyway, you know
what I'm saying, I got and it's it's the way
I gotta because I gotta keep able to keep my
head up and keep going. Now, if I sit there
and listen to too much of it, I would imagine
it'll get me down. And I was spending most of
my time defending myself there whoa wait a meet it
(15:14):
that's not true. So I've been trying to keep my
head about it, quite honestly, and enjoy the things that
I can enjoy, and and quite quite honestly, not paying
attention to the things that I only enjoy. If you
if we go back and look at your career and
we went through all of our film library and we
can only pick one play that was gonna be a resume, well,
(15:34):
Michael Irvin, and this is the only thing. It's gonna
be left to your career, and hundreds of years from now,
someone wants to punch up, let's say on the internet,
and Michael Irvin and it's one play, and this would
be the resume of what you stood for on a
football field. What what would you want to say? That's
a good yeah? What one play would it be? What
we play? I we have to I have to go
(15:55):
back to the super Bowl. I would have to go
back the Super Bowl. And I remember it's the first touchdown.
It was on a slant and I don't know why,
but it slant. I kind of like the think that
you know, slant for a virus. Either. It's the play
that most wide receivers don't want to run. It's a
tough play, you know. I remember my head press cut.
I went inside the guy called the ball winning end zone,
and for me, it was that's the one play that
sticks out of my head more than anything because I
(16:16):
remember at that time walking back after that play, walking
back to the sideline, thinking to myself, did I just
go touchdown in the Super Bowl? This is the Super Bowl.
Do you know how many of them guys that I
grew up with a watching this game right now? You know,
I mean it probably lies. I know him, I raised him,
you know, But it was the super Bowl. It's it's
the biggest it's the biggest stage ever. And I could
(16:38):
let that play stick out so much. I can't remember.
I can't never forget that playing and just the whole
surroundings of it. When when you look back at your career,
you have Emma and Troy and yourself, and I think
we want looked in the record book. And I don't
think there's ever been a combination running back quarterback receivers
from the same team that made the Pro Bowl as
often as you guys did. There must be some sort
(17:00):
of a an interesting relationship. You described that. It's incredible,
and you know, we talked about it when we just
recently started talking about it. But it's something incredible, cause
you don't often find that many guys on the team
that get along so well. I mean, we never had
problems with one another. I mean we had a true
mutual respect for one another and admiration for one another.
(17:20):
I'm probably Troy's biggest fan. You're not not just saying
it because I wanted to throw me the ball, even
though I do want him and throw me all the balls.
But I really am. And he's one of my greatest friends.
I mean, and if you ask me now, um, since
every type, that's the guy talked to most on the team,
it's Troy, you know. And we just had such we
have such a great relationship, such a great friendship. And
I enjoyed playing for him. I mean it was I
(17:41):
was telling I was telling the team one that's you
know what, you what it's like for a receiver. Your
job is not just to make a play, but to
make sure you make the play for Troy. That's that's
your man towards my right hand man. My job was
to make the play for him. And and and there's
no there's no doubt I wouldn't I man, I just
enjoy playing with him. I enjoyed playing with him. Just
a quick popping here to remind you that in those days,
(18:02):
remember these three were kind of Madonna. Just one name
is all you needed. So Michael, Troy and Emmett they
coined the Moniker, the Triplets, and really they were the
tem played for the wide receiver, quarterback running back combination
that all teams seemed to want today on offense. But
(18:22):
it's easy to forget that Irvin began his career before
any of them were Cowboys. In fact, he was actually
the last first round pick made by the Cowboys of
the previous regime, you know, the days of Tom Landry,
Gil Brand, and Tech Shram. In fact, Irvin's rookie year
he had Herschel Walker as his running back, Steve Ploras
(18:44):
his quarterback, and of course Landry as his head coach.
The other thing was interesting to me is that the
coaches that you've played for, you played for Landry, right,
you played for one year for Landry, and you played
with Jimmy and em Barried. Now I wanted to take
each one of those coaches. All right, let's start with
with with coach Landry always the best and the worst
(19:05):
things about playing for for for Coach Landing, Well, the
best thing was that it was coach lander and I
was had been in all just watching them. I was
in all the Coach land just looking at him, and
I mean, it's just the man I've been watching growing up.
I mean since you know, growing up in Miami, because
all you did, all you got was the Dolphins or
either the Cowboys. Everybody got the Cowboys. So you know,
I'm watching coach Landro and I'm watching up and down
(19:26):
the sideline and I couldn't believe that I was playing
for Coach Landry. Now, I remember that first year, we
weren't that good, you know what I mean, we weren't
that I think we finished like three and thirteen. And
the worst thing was probably I was just so built
up waiting on that first pregame speech. I remember looking
over as watching Keen Norton and we Ken knowing that
I just got drafted and we were so built no
(19:46):
waiting on their first pregame speech. And I think Coach
Landro kind of knew weren't that good of a football
team because the whole pregame speech was like, let's just
go ouhead and try to keep with staying close fellas.
And I was like, wait a minute, it's from your coach.
Been't waiting all my life to be in this locker room.
What do you mean trying to g Of course we
would not have got killed. You know I'm saying, but
(20:08):
that's pretty much all I remember about coaches. Let me
sweat before we get to the other coaches. When you
came in to the NFL, Michael, was there ever any
self doubt? Did you ever get in a situation where
you just said, jeez, I don't know whether I couldn't
make it here? Or were you always really that confident
in your ability that you were gonna not only play,
but but I was always coming to my ability that
(20:30):
I was gonna play. And man, I always thought I
always knew I would play in the league. Um, And
it was first few years I was like, man, I
don't know, you know, I kind of I knew I
was great. I know it's gonna be good enough to play,
and I wanted to play at a great level. But
I always worried after those first few years we didn't
do so well. I like, man, maybe these things a
little tougher than I told you. I need to go
back to the drawing board and all season workouts and
(20:50):
try to figure it out, because you know, I just
felt like it always thought it was up to me
to make the play. It was up to me. But
now I was realizing and I was sitting on that
bench and cry. Sometime after we lose and Nate knew
would come by. Pat On here told young rookie, this
league came win by yourself. We need help, you know.
So I'm like, well, maybe maybe maybe we do need
some help out here. Well, now, looking at back in
(21:13):
your career, what part of your career you might have
answered this already? Did you need to show the most
perseverance the time in your career that when you really
had to dig down And let me tell you what
broke me down. I had a knee operation in eighty nine,
I think it was eighty nine, a second year in
the league, and I'm talking about from that we had
we weren't winning an eight eighty nine first few games
(21:34):
of the year where things weren't going good, and it
took me. It took and I'm going in this knee operation,
it's a c L and I'm thinking, you know, I
work harder than everybody else. You tell me what to do,
I'll do it. And I figured, I'll going here, bounce
right back. I'll wait next day. And I couldn't move
my leg on it. Whoa wait a minute, I'm a
bounce right back if I can't get out here wrong,
you know, I couldn't alonger move my leg. And I
(21:54):
mean that that took something for me. It might have to.
It took me two years to come back from that,
just to get over just just just just the middle,
just the depression, everything. It really hit me for it
hard um going through the knee surgery. Looking back on
your talent as a as a as a wide receiver,
what do you think Michael's was your greatest asset Mike? Mike, competitiveness,
(22:17):
just being competitive. I enjoyed compete. I figured and competing.
When you say compete, I mean it's it's the whole game.
It's the psyche of the whole game. Is the physical part.
I enjoyed the psyche. I enjoyed it all. I just
wanted to compete. Uh. I never thought if I just
lined up, I was gonna out run anybody. I never
thought I was gonna, you know, stronger than anybody, but
when I put it all together, you know I can
(22:38):
make plays. And then that was my thing. I walked
in saying, I know, I I about trained everybody. I
ran hard, I ran longer, so I should be better.
The law said, I supposed to be better if you
run it, if you work hard, and everybody, you're supposed
to be better. So I'm going in here and I'm
gonna be the best. And that's just kind of attitude
I took. When when you look back into your career, now,
what's is there one moment that you're least likely to
(23:00):
forget that when you think of all that, how many
years have you did you play? I play at twelve
years almost twelve years. Is there one moment that, uh,
that you think you're at least likely to forget? And
it might not have happened on the field, Maybe it
was something in the you know, in the in the
locker room or in the tunnel before the game or
after the game, you know what, And let me be
honest with you, the moment is the moment I laid
(23:22):
on in on carpet in Philadelphia. It was the last
player I played. I mean that that that that that
hit me when when I'm thinking that it's it's you know,
I remember laying on that carpet, and you gotta understand
and realize that for every player, I don't care whoever,
he says, every player going on that feels his biggest
fears and the other thing, Okay, I get paralyzed in
every place. You gotta think about it every before. You're
(23:43):
gonna feel you. I don't care who you are. I
don't care how tough you are, how much you bivaldo,
you're pushing on yourself. You're gonna you want to think
about one play could be in it. You could be
to play and and and just for a moment I
laid on that field, that one play was that played
for me? I was like, whoa. You know, all these
years of thinking about it, I couldn't believe it was
really that that it was. You couldn't see anything, I
(24:04):
couldn't feel anything. I lay on that car and it
was so amaze because you know, back to me being
I'm the tough guy. I took the hit and it
seemed like much of a head. And I get up,
you know, like yeah, yeah, yeah, get up, baby, everybody
get up. And then somebody said movie later said I did.
They said no movie. I was like, whoa wait a
minute here, this's just kind of this is crucial. It
was crucial, and I remember saying it, then if you
(24:27):
ever get up and if you ever get up again,
I don't know, if you ever get back down here again,
you know like that. I think that was the moment,
was like, this is it? So that's when you decided.
When did you just saw your retire? Well, I I
decided that moment in my head. I was scared. I was,
you know, scared and everything. But then you know, of
course I go back and then look at the film, like, oh,
maybe that's not so bad. Now I want to play again.
(24:49):
You know, I'm trying to rationalize everything out. You know,
I was still paralleled fifteen twenty minutes. What I'm saying,
you're getting hand to it. You can play again. And
I was ready to play again. But then of course
my wife he was like, no, I don't think you
should and and I don't you know, for me wrestling
to be totally honesty, I think I'll still be playing,
but I don't. I don't know if I can put
them through it watching me playing. One end of the
(25:11):
next players, the last hit and I don't know if
Troy go on hould and call a slant, and I'll
get scared and run out, just thinking like, no, I'm
not going across that melody anymore. So I just figured
fall in tense purposes. Maybe it's it's it's the best
way to walk away. Irvin was smart enough to know
that you can't play the game scared, and so just
like that, his career was over. But make no mistake,
(25:32):
the circumstances in Philadelphia were ugly. And look this pains
me from a personal perspective, since I am a Philadelphia native.
We're not just talking about booing Santa Claus, which of
course the Philadelphia fans did, but they actually cheered when
they realized that Irvin was down and hurt and let
(25:53):
out a roar that could only be categorized as derisive.
As he was carried off on a stretcher and wheeled
to the waiting ambulance. It was irvin And final catch
in the NFL. So if you can picture it, he
ran a slant. Aikman connected with him perfectly, as they
had done like clockwork over the years, and two defensive
(26:14):
backs converged so neither hit looked especially egregious, but it
was the way that Irvin's head was driven into the
veteran stadium turf. It was at an angle that caused
his neck to twist and resulted in swelling of his vertebrae.
He laid there motionless for multiple minutes, ultimately sustaining a
(26:35):
non life threatening cervical spinal cord injury. On July eleven,
two Urvan announced his retirement. He was just thirty three
years old at the time, and he owned or was
tied for twenty franchise receiving records. When we come back,
Irvin reflects more in his career, including what it was
(26:55):
like to play for Jimmy Johnson and Barry Switzer. Welcome
back to Tales from the Vault. When Michael Irvin retired
in two thousand, he was the last player in the
NFL to have actually played for Tom Landry, But the
bulk of Irvin's career he was playing for Jimmy Johnson,
(27:16):
his college coach from Miami, with whom he won a
national title in and of course, he also played for
Barry Switzer with the Cowboys. Now, if you listen to
the Troy Aikman episode of this podcast, earlier in the year,
and feel free to go back and check it out
if you haven't. You know that Troy never exactly embraced
the lucy goosey Switzer as a head coach. But Michael
(27:39):
Irvin felt differently. Let's go back to the coaches, the
best and the worst about Jimmy, oh man, let me
I can give you that probably one one whole story.
And I and then I was was talking about that earlier.
I said, Jimmy was a jim was a great coach,
great coach, great great great mind games and Jamie would
do things like I remember Jimmy before. You know, football
(28:00):
and coaching all it puts stress on the whole family
because to your way, a lot your time. You spent
a lot of time coaching, and you spend a lot
of time away from the family. So Jimmy before the season,
will call all the players together, bring your wives and
all your girlfriends. So bring your wives in, your girlfriends.
We're gonna have a get together, right, and we would
all get together and he'll sit there and he'll take
(28:22):
us some nice place, bringing nice spread out. We're all
sitting and eat and eat, having a nice time, having
a nice meal and Jimmy get up on him, get
up on in the comm and say, hey, we're family here.
I just wanted to be everybody to get together. So
now y'all can leave us alone. We can. We'll get
back to being your husband and your boyfriends. And about
seven months we got some football to play, you know,
and next day we're off to camp. But you don't
(28:43):
see your family about seven months. So you know, Jimmy
was he was smart with that. You know. Now what
about that Barry? I love Barry, I love but I
felt sorry for Barry because I don't I don't know
they did him treated him um fairly in Dallas. You know,
Beary won a Super Bowl, but they were hard on
Barry Man. Barry. Barry was a players coach. He was
(29:03):
ultimate players coach. I think people took advantage of what
do you mean want to say, Michael say, guys, some
players coach watch because he didn't practice your heart, no, no, no, no,
he practiced by when I said that, he left, he
left the coaching up to the existence, which is really
the job of assistance coaching. He's the overseas things. That's
what he coaches do. He oversee. He had trusting his assistance,
(29:24):
and he had trust in his players. He said, listen,
I'm gonna treat you like him. Man, go bill man.
The thing is the problem is there's some players out
there who he's being treated like a man, and don't
take it like a man. You know, he's said, the
guys paying me four million dollars and you don't have
to tell me to work out. I'm gonna do my
work it out. If you're paying me the account of money,
I'm gonna go get my job done. You're paying guys
that kind of money and you're treating them like a man.
(29:45):
Look compaying you for for a good day's work. Go
give me a good day's work. Some guys just want
to back up to that one the tunnel, want to
get the paycheck. Let me sneak on back up to
the winner. They mean, they're taking advantage of it. It's
not his fault, you know. It's like he said, one time,
I gotta pay a guy three four million dollars to
play football. They pay another guy million dollars to make
him play. I mean, how my sisters have you know?
He he was He was a great coach. He treated
(30:07):
people like me um and and and the unfortunatelything when
some people took advantage of Now you were a leader
on that team, where there ever any times that you
had to pull someone aside, a player, aside, a rookie
or something and just and say, look, you're not cooking out,
you're not doing this, You're not doing this is part
you know, because part of the everything. Yeah, it was
my road. I didn't have any problem with it when
(30:28):
and it goes back. My thing is that not only
was the time only I could put those guys aside
in those fourth quarters and when I need those guys
that make sure I gave him my time in the
off season, and those off season time came those those rookies,
they have a real even in their town and and
then little sit even I'll make sure I go to
those evenge you know, guys like me, they'll be afraid
to come, said, Michael, can you come to my videos
(30:50):
like a golf tournament or golf tournament, you got a
basketball tournament and the basketball charity basketball, I'm gonna I'm
gonna be there. I'm gonna be there for you, you
know what I'm saying. But the fourth quarter come, I'm
gonna look you right now, I say Hey, look here,
I got a family fee let's make the plays out.
It know I was there for you. You know, it's
it's the moment, and that that's when they'll go back.
They'll remember those moments that I was there for them.
(31:10):
Now if I'm never there for them. And I walk
around the locker room and they're looking at me like, hey,
that's Michael. You know, there's Troy. Hey, there's them it
and and then a fourth quarter coming, that's the first
time I go say something that boy, Come on, what
you're doing. He's gonna say, what are you're messing with
me for? You know what? Making millions? You gonna win
the game. You know you never cared about me before.
Don't come like you care about me now. So the
important thing is the leader I thought for me was
(31:31):
to make sure I spend time with those guys in
the off season and time with those guys after practice
to make sure they know I care about them. So
you know, when the time came I need to get
in the year. I had every right to get in
there giving them everything. I got in one of their
head to give me everything, and they had sa Let's
say we had a bunch of your old teammates sitting
over here in the corner, and you knew that they
were talking about you. What would you hope that they
(31:52):
would be saying, Man, I know what they'll be saying,
saying some of everything right now. I'm looking over there
over there, And you gotta imagine I had quite quite
a few characters. Now. I played with you know, Haley,
Nate Newton. Have you had Nat in there? Man? Man,
(32:13):
it'll be some working And I played with interview with Na. Man.
I'm telling you you won't forget it, forget it right.
And that's how it is. And I mean and it's
a blessing. I mean we we we played and we
(32:33):
want like that that that help us. I mean, you
know you couldn't go on that field and come back
in that lockeroom. You'd be scared to come in the
locker room if you didn't play right, because you know
they child's gonna tell and tell you. Charles Hayley what, man,
charl Oh, I would I couldn't. I couln't even say
you could use the stuff. You couldn't even use the
stuff I could tell. I wish I could tell you
someone Charles Hayley. There was another character man, but I
(32:54):
played with him. Man, I played with some great guys, Man,
some great guys that enjoy the game. I mean enjoyed
the game on the field off to feel the enjoyed
the game altogether. What do you think, Michael, is the
biggest problem that FEL players have today. Uh, that's a
good question. And I don't know, because Steve I said,
I don't know, because I really I refused to let
(33:14):
things become a problem a lot of times. I mean,
my my thing, my might be is problem. Really, my
whole career is just having time for my family. And
you you waste so much, and sometimes you do get
you get distracted, and I mean you can distracted with things, women,
all this stuff. You get that career, Mike, there were
times that that you were in situations did the field,
(33:35):
off the field, did you ever have a few little voice,
like a little I said, Hey, you know, I don't
know whether I should be with these people or in
this situation. Yeah, I mean, but now the time times,
let's let's say you were in a situation at a
party and and or with the wrong kind of people.
(33:56):
Did you know in that situation and hey, if if
somebody comes in here and they say, hey, this is right, right,
is going on in trouble. I'm in trouble. You stay
right there. So yeah, I don't listen. If you if
you thought you were gonna get caught, you wouldn't be
there in the first place. Nobody ever think they're gonna
get caught. That's that's the problem, you know what I mean.
(34:16):
It's like I could have if I have a drink,
get in my car. I'm like, I know I shouldn't
be drinking a guy and this getting I'm driving this
comet making home. I'll be okay. And then when you
get caught, like, why did I do that? That was stupid?
I mean, I knew I was wrong. You know. Was
always after you get caught, you know that was. But
I shouldn't have been there. It was. Now everybody's gonna
be saying this, and everybody's gonna be doing this. Yeah,
(34:37):
you kick yourself and there you kick yourself in the
head twenty times, you kick yourself twenty times afterwards, But
at the time, you know, yeah, in it, yeah, it
yere in it, the fast world, everything in it, and
you just don't feel you know, I'll be okay, I
won't get caught what Irvan is referring to and what
he's about to get integrated to tail about is the
arrest and trial for cocaine possession. He was arrested in
(35:00):
a suburban Dallas motel room on March fourth of that
year after a police raid turned up more than ten
grams of cocaine and a small quantity of marijuana. The
night of his arrest, Irvin was celebrating his thirtieth birthday
with a former teammate and two topless dancers. Irvin served
no jail time after pleading no contest to second degree
(35:23):
felony cocaine possession in exchange for four years deferred probation,
a ten thousand dollar fine, and dismissal of misdemeanor marijuana
possession charges. Look, it's an understatement to say that Irvin
has had numerous brushes with the law, and he's been
forthcoming about his foibles. In fact, he and I have
(35:43):
discussed quite frankly over the years that he is cognizant
that he played in an era where there were no
camera phones, and he's very grateful for it. As he
told me one time, if there was social media back
when I played, I'd probably be dead or in jail.
What's the hardest apology that you ever had to make
in your life? You know what, when I when I
(36:04):
got in my situation in Dallas, um quite unst and
I remember my apologize after after I had my trial
and my apologize, apologize to the people. But the whole
while I was thinking about it was an apology to
my father. You know, my father was was was my
building black My father was my world. And he had
passed and I had taken his name and taken it
through something. You know, his name Irving. Regardless of what
(36:25):
the world think that he was a proud man. I
looked at him as a proud man. I saw him
that way, and he helped, He helped held Irving that
name helped held it. He did a great job of
holding and he helped held it well. And I took
that through something that he that he didn't deserve, um
with with the trial and doubts and and and for me,
that was tough. You know. I went to my wife
to apologize after that. She you know the first thing
she said, she made me feel horrible. I'm I'm I'm
(36:47):
coming to her. I'm ready to boo cry. I was
wrong I'm sorry, and she just looked at me and say,
I'm fine, you make a peace with God. I'm like,
don't say that. Argue with me here, you know what
I mean, Let's fight a little bit, Let's do something.
You make it hard when you just said you make
your peace with God. I'm like, lo, you know I
was wrong. You know I'm really all right. But but
but but basically it was it was just you know
(37:08):
what I mean really and I sat there. I remember
thinking that day, thinking about my father and my father
he was just such a great man. You know, my
father was a roof and a minister, and he deserved
that in that gave him that day. I want to
ask you, did you ever have to apologize to your
teammates though, I mean when when you know some of
those problems, because I mean, if I was your team,
I said gotta mi, Michael can't play this season or
something like that, because the troubles was theever situation, you know,
(37:32):
not not really not in my teammates. Um, I apologize
to him, apologized. I remember when I spending those first
five games that's apologized to him for that. But but
never I feel they never It made me feel like
that you know, my teammates, believe it or not, there
was a lot of times that I shouldn't have been
the place I should have been able it with me.
I just was one got called. So they kind of
(37:52):
almost understood to be honest with you, and and and
and they were good. They were really good about it.
And I guess they probably think that I took a
good badger and from from the public that I didn't
need any from them, when when we're sitting here talking
about their It's there any topic that you that that
if we brought up that you said I don't want
to talk about. Is there anything that I don't mind
talking about anything? Anything that has gone on in my
(38:12):
life has went on in my life. I mean, what
am I to say that I don't want to talk
about it. I don't have a problem talking about anything.
What would be if we're gonna say, like you're if
I was gonna ask you what the biggest regret that
you've got. We've talked about all the high points of
your career, and what would be something that you'd say, jeez,
if I had it to do over again, you know
what I remember sitting on the sideline, Um, I think
(38:33):
it's ninety six and I was crying after the game.
We got blown out by the Giants of Philadelphia, last
game of the season, and I remember thinking so bad
that I really because right after that Super Bowl, it's
when I had my problems, when I had my situation
in the hotel and everything, and I remember just thinking, God,
I took something away from Dallas there, because that thing
overtook Dallas. That the whole situation is so it took
(38:53):
and it was right in the middle of a Super
Bowl celebration. We never really had a chance to finished
celebrating winning the Super Bowl, and it happened in March.
We just wanted Super Bowl, I guess in late January.
It's like I never really had a chance to finish,
finish it, just enjoy celebrating the Super Bowl. And that
took something away from me that I regret. I regret
going through. I regret taking Dallas story. I remember sitting
on the sideline crying because we had a horrible season,
(39:16):
and I just I tried so hard. I couldn't. I
want so bad, just give him another super Bowl, something,
just something else to celebrate someone. You try to do
it again, and I could never get it done. Was
there ever a time in your life that you felt
it was like you're totally out of control. I mean
their time where everything was just happening so fast and
this side and that that you just I just I
don't know what I was about of control, totally felt
(39:38):
that we toldly out of control. You know, I always
I kept level ground. I'm blessed with a good wife,
you know. I mean, I got a woman that's that's
been there, so that's so that's good. But uh, I
don't feel like I've ever been totally like just lost.
And like I said, I never really got caught up
in a lot of things todent. I mean there was
times I would imagine it was coming up with things
boom boomer, I mean one out, another coming on TV,
and and and I just know And like I said,
(40:00):
I never watched it. Now, if I would have been
glued in, tuned into it all the time, I probably
would have put a bullet in brain. Man. I don't know.
From what I heard, they ran it pretty good and
ran me pretty rampant with it. So there's one thing.
I know we heard a here that you were I
forget what it was. But but then it was totally wrong,
and you would a lawsuit against the station exactly. That's why,
that's why, That's exactly my point. That's what I'm saying.
I mean, no, wait a minute now, not just that.
(40:21):
And then there there was a rate thing that I
supposed to had a rate the girl I had done
her head with a camera and glass. This coming from
and I was, you know, it was excuse me, it
was so many things coming out so fast, That's exactly.
But I didn't want to pay attention to it. But
I knew, I knew the one thing happened I was
in that hotel. Everything else after that was it was
just a bunch of it is and it just hit Michael.
(40:45):
Wasn't true. I don't remember anything that was true after
As Michael did this I supposed to doing my trial
took some wind. I mean, he had me out to
like Gotti, you know what I'm saying. But what about
what's the worst emotional pain that you ever suffered playing football?
I mean we talked about the physical one. You know,
it used to hurt me. I mean hurt me. I
don't know why I could when I was playing with Jimmy,
(41:06):
even in college in Miami or and it's a Dallas
And I think about this today. Sometimes. I used to
watch and we were losing the game, and I would
watch Jimmy. I would stand behind him. He probably got
small films. You see me just behind Jimmy leeking and
we're losing. And I watched Jimmy and it would hurt
me because it looked like it was killing him. I
mean it was like it was like Jimmy was like,
(41:26):
I'm going home to night to kill myself. I was
like being out feels. I felt so bad for Jimmy.
You know, I hate losing, but I I feel like
I met somebody I know he hated losing worse than
I didn't. He wasn't even on the field, and I
was like, I mean he is just killing him. I
mean it looked like it killed him. And I that's
the pain that I remember most, just any time we lost,
just looking at him and it's like he don't know
what he's gonna do. I just felt bad for him.
(41:48):
When um to switch your question, what's what's the most
meaningful compliment Michael that you've ever received or what's the
nicest thing that anyone's ever said to you? Uh? On
the field, just just playing the game. Uh, probably the
greatest thing everyone ever said. It's just whenever I came,
(42:09):
I came to play. Whenever I was there, Okay, I
came to play. Michael always come to play, you know,
and you here now. And that's the one thing I
think when I say now, people said, well, how would
you want to be remembered just that when I played,
you know, in football, Like, I don't let you be
I ever want you to remember me when I was
like my personal life, my personal life, I don't you
have to remember For the fans of the people that
watched me play, I just I just want you to
(42:29):
know that, Hey, whenever I played, I gave it my all.
You know what I mean. If you're a fan of
Dallas Cowboy, that mean I was playing for you and
I gave it my all. And that's the only way
you want to remember. And I think that's the greatest
thing that anyone has ever said. Man, whatever Michael play,
he gave it is all you. The last two questions
I had to that you talked. You said once that
I think when you were still playing that you said
that somebody asked you about to evaluate your career and
(42:51):
you said, well, you know I'm gonna have I don't
have time to smell the roses. That was the experience.
I never had time while I was in the game.
You never it was. It was always it was always going.
We were always going, you know. And I trained a
great deal. I mean training the off season. I really trained,
so you But now I've been reflecting and smelling the
roses and even I mean it's been great. I've been
(43:12):
flying to cities to do event so even like come
talk to you. I mean, I've been in Philadelphia a
hundred times. I never saw Philadelphia. You know. When I
got here, I was all about I want to play.
I don't care think I'm driving by things. I've never
seen anything the body would tell about. I mean, Washington,
Daryl Green, I got darl Green, you know what, Jason.
(43:32):
I thought about those guys from the time I got
on the airplane, from the time the week started. All weeks.
So now I get to smell the rosers. I'm in cities.
Now I get the visitor. I see things. I'm like, man,
how long that's been there? You know, I've been in
the city twenty times and I never saw the city. Um,
so that so now I'm getting the opportunity to smell
the roses. Yes, what do you what do you think
the football's taught you? What do you look back at
(43:53):
your career? Footballs It gives you great lessons to life.
And the greatest football is about never giving up. And
that's what I smile asked me the other day. What
do you tell your kids, Michael? You know you you're
being an athlete and being a role model. What do
you tell your kids? What I tell my kids? Hey,
look daddy made mistakes. Look You're gonna make mistakes. That's okay.
Get back up in his fight again. That's the greatest
(44:14):
thing football has talked to you. I mean, football has
always talked to you. Hey, no matter how bad you
got beat, no matter how bad somebody beat you, now
it will be in next week. Get back up on
this fight again. I can't ask for a better ending
than that. Michael Irvin can be a polarizing figure, but
I've always found him to be genuine and truly grateful
for the number of chances he's had on the field
(44:35):
and in the TV world. In August of two thou seven,
he was inducted into the Pro Football Hall of fame.
In a tearful, emotional speech, he acknowledged his personal shortcomings
as well as those who supported him throughout his trials
literally and tribulations. Why must I go through so many
(44:56):
peaks and valleys? I wanted to stand in front of
my boys and say do it like you're dad, like
any proud dead would want to. I must I go
through so much? And at that moment a voice came
(45:17):
over me and he said, look, get up and don't
ever give up. In the years since his retirement, despite
being a national NFL commentator, Urvan's never shy about showing
his continued Cowboys fandom, as well as his disappointment when
(45:38):
they underachieve as they did this season. His comments about
their playoff chances, their head coach, their quarterback always seemed
to bubble to the surface every year, and his opinions
have an outsize influence still in Dallas. Next week we
bring you our final interview subject on Tales from the Vault.
(45:59):
It's part one of a truly remarkable interview that Steve
did in line with the legendary Al Davis. You will
not want to miss this. Thank you so much for listening.
I'm Andrea Kramer
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