DeMaurice Smith and JC Tretter: The Art of Compromise

The NFLPA’s Executive Director DeMaurice Smith and President JC Tretter join Steve and Jim together for a wide-ranging interview. They discuss the impact of COVID-19 on the unprecedented 2020 season (16:26), why the same testing protocols are likely to be in place at the start of the 2021 season (20:12) and JC explains why offseason training for players may be forever changed (28:56). They also discuss the chances we’ll see a 17th regular season game (47:20), the current state of the union-NFL relationship (14:34) and why the Rooney Rule is outdated (33:31).

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
What's up, everybody. This is Charles Whitson Man, and you
are listening to the Huddle and Flow Podcast. And we're

(00:25):
back with another episode of the Huddle and Flow Podcast,
brought to you by Into It, the Problem makers of
Quick Books, Mint and Turbo Tax. I'm Steve White with
my dude, Jim Trotter, two thirds the Howard University mobel Man,
Thomas Warren on the ones and the twos producing this.
He's the final piece of the puzzle and Jim, We've
got a really cool pod today because we've got demorristment At,

(00:49):
the executive director of the nfl p A, and j C.
Tread Or, the president of the nfl p A hanging
out with us today. And I think it's I'm so glad,
you know you were able to kind of swing them
to come on, especially after the ESPN article last week
which kind of really painted a picture of damoors Smith
being co opted by the NFL saying, you know, he

(01:09):
cut favorable deals for the league and its owners. And
you know, we're gonna ask d about this because you
know that was that was something that really challenged his
leadership and character and and and his his means about
going about his business. So I'm glad you gain we're
able to get him on to talk to talking about this. Yeah. Look,
I mean there are owners who do feel that way.
But my thing is, if you feel that way, put

(01:31):
your name on it. You know, teams always ask players
don't speak anonymously. Put your name on it. Well, if
you're a billionaire owner and you have something to say
like that, where you know, you talk about you should
build a statue for de Morris because he's been so
good for the owners, put your name on it, because
to me, otherwise that's that's just a cheap shot. So um,

(01:54):
and again I'm not while I'm saying here is that
you're entitled to your opinion if you believe that you know,
or even if you say the facts show that, just
put your name on it if you're gonna say it. Yeah,
I mean. And it's a hell of of of a
turn about too, because for years we heard all he
wants to do is box, right, all he wants to
was litigating Box and this and that. Now all of
a sudden, you know, he's, uh, he's part of the process.

(02:18):
Very interesting and very good article by Don Vanata and
Seth Wickersham, very good reporters. You know, they've they've done
a lot of these things, a lot of these things before. Jim.
You know, also some things you know, we need to
hit on. The seventeen game season. It looks like it's
gonna be here. You know, with a three game preseason.
It's gonna change the schedule, It's gonna change you know

(02:38):
what we'll see if it change the size of practice squads.
I really hope they do. Keep in the fact the
payers who are placed on I RQ and come back
three weeks later. I think that really helped team sustain
their roster and some of these teams get better towards
the end of the regular season. Again, these are some
of the topics will try and broach when we get
j C and tomorrow. Smith on Yeah, you know, there's

(02:59):
some any things to talk about. There was dealing with
the pandemic this season, getting through an entire season, which
I'm one of those people who didn't think or was
very skeptical that the league could get through an entire
season without missing games or having postponements um in terms
of full weeks. So there's that to talk about. There's

(03:20):
also an upcoming um nfl p A election next year
where de Morris will be up for re election. Is
he going to run, is he not going to run,
will he run unopposed? Um? And then there you know
the interesting idea that J. C. Treader Um suggested back
in December. I believe it was about, Look, we had

(03:41):
proven this year that you don't need those on field
workouts in the off season, so why are we doing them?
And would like to see some changes to the off
season program which have to be collectively bargained. So there's
a lot of things to talk about what these guys
are here from these guys on and a tasty. The
other thing I found really interesting, if you want to

(04:02):
jump in on it. It's just the fact that we
were able to get the executive director of the nfl
p A on our podcast before we could get the
NFL commissioner on our podcast, and we've been trying to
get the commissioners in September. I found that interesting as well. Yeah,
there's been a standing, there's been a standing in open
invitation for league leadership to join us on the huddling

(04:22):
Flow since we launched. But until then, let's get to
the executive director of the nfl p A and the
president of the nfl p A, Demorris Smith and J. C. Treader.

(04:44):
All right, Jim, this is a just so excited for this.
You know, our special guests now are joining us. You've
got JC Tredder, president of the nfl p A, and
Demore Smith, the executive director of the nfl p A. Gentlemen,
thanks for joining Jim and I here on the Huddle
Flow podcast. Thanks for having us. Absolutely so so d

(05:07):
we want, we want to get we gotta get to
you first. We're gonna we're gonna go get this out
of the way, and that ESPN article that came out
last week, we're not We're gonna unpack all of it here,
but yeah, correct correct um. But just you know, the
overall gist that it tries to at least lay out

(05:30):
here in this very lengthy piece by Don Vananda and
Seth Wickersham is that there is not as much faith
in your leadership and doing what's best for the players
as there once was in terms of, you know, adding
the sev eighteenth games, some of the negotiations that took
place for the c b A. What is kind of

(05:52):
your response to some of the things laid out here,
especially the overall narrative that it tries to show. I
think that's where I would start. UM. UM. Well, first, actually,
let me start one giant step back. Thanks for having
me on your show. UM. But to pick up on
the question, I think the only place where I would
begin and end talking about the article today is UM.

(06:15):
It seemed to want to create a certain narrative UM
and UM I think when people UH, people are certainly
entitled to their their own opinions. I'm not sure anybody's
entitled to their own facts. UM. The narrative it seemed
to me was was more um heavy on opinion um

(06:40):
and and certainly relying on a lot of people that
they chose to to keep anonymous. UM. But my takeaway
from it is pretty simple. UM. You know, Jim, you
know we we probably met the first couple of weeks
after I was elected in this job back in two
thousand nine. You know how I see the world. UM,
I rely on the facts. My job is to do

(07:01):
the best uh I can for the players. UM. Those
things result in things like collective bargaining agreements and things
that make the lives of our players better. UM. And
they're working conditions better and their wages better. Um. And
when it comes to people who have, you know, certain
agendas about creating certain narratives, I tend to just stay

(07:24):
in effect, you know. D What really blew me away
and reading that piece and listening to the podcast was Yes,
these owners were given the blanket of anonymity, but I
couldn't understand why they would come out and say some
of the things now. Um. For instance, you know, if
we could, every owner would build a statue to d

(07:46):
outside their stadiums. That's how good he has been for
our business. You deal with these men on a regular um.
What are your thoughts on why they would come out
now at this time and make public statements like that. Well,
I mean, look, I always come back to UM. I
guess one big takeaway is apparently having a billion dollars

(08:08):
doesn't buy a whole heck of a lot of courage
because you still want to stay into the sidelines and
into the shadows. That's that's number one. But number two,
you know, you and I talk about history a lot. Um.
These were the same group of people who said the
exact same thing about Geane Upshaw after the two thousand
six deal, Right, Um, My job is not to crawl

(08:30):
into their brains and try to figure out um their motives.
Again going back, my job is to do the best
that I can on behalf of the players, UM, to
to come up with concrete, tangible gains. UM. If if
somebody wants to write an article where they spend you know,
just as much time talking about the rumors and the

(08:53):
opinions that as they're going to talk about facts, I
can't control that UM. And and frankly don't care about
controlling that. My job is to talk to the players.
I answer to them. UM. You know that said am
I am I sensitive to to sort of coded language
and and the desire to build a caricature that that

(09:14):
some people choose to do at times, of course I am.
I walk into a room every day when I'm negotiating
with owners, and and let's just say, everybody on one
side of the table looks one way, and typically people
who look on our side of table look a little
bit differently. UM. For me, it's about making sure that
I'm answerable to the membership. UM. And that's where this

(09:36):
job begins and ends. The timing is kind of interesting
as well, knowing that you're up for reelection in September. Um,
do you think that in any way this will have
any impact on that? And do you expect that this
time to run out a post as you did last time? Well? Um, again,
the players make the decisions of of how long I

(09:58):
have this job. Again. I you brought up the timing
of these articles. They tend to they tend to kind
of follow a little bit of a pattern. Um. But
you know what, Jim, at the end of the day,
I'm blessed to have a great job. Um. I love it.
I love the battles. Um. When I came into this
job as sort of the outsider and two thousand and nine,

(10:20):
it was the caricature was it's a guy from the
outside who doesn't know anything about football. Um. After that
it became the guy who just likes to fight too much.
He doesn't build relationships. Um. All he wants to do
is litigate. Um. He doesn't have a good relationship with
with the owners, he doesn't have a good relationship with
Roger Goodell. And now we're at a point where Okay,

(10:42):
he's got too good of a relationship with everybody. He's
too close to Roger Goodell. Well, Um, all three of
those things can't be true. UM. I don't spend a
whole heck of a lot of time trying to figure
out what everybody's motivation is. UM. My job is just
to do the best I can for the players, and
I'm going to do that. Yeah, you're a player. What

(11:07):
what is the player membership feelings about union leadership? Yeah?
I mean, I think if we start with with this
ESPN article, I think it breaks down into three categories.
The first one is like D touched on the the
anonymous quotes, and I think most most players and most
men look at you know their word and who they are,
and if they have something to say, they're gonna they're

(11:28):
gonna say, and they're gonna put their name behind it.
And I don't put put much stock um and people
who don't want to do that, And I don't really
want to spend too much time arguing with shadows. Uh.
And that's kind of the first part of that article.
The second, UM, I see as more of a subjective
part of the piece. And that's when you start talking
about the two thousand eleven deal, the twenty deal, of

(11:52):
who won the negotiations, and that is a subjective decision
because as everybody knows a c b A is about,
on the low side, five hundred compromises built into one document.
So to UM to try to decide who the winner
is probably isn't the easiest, and there's a gray area

(12:14):
if you're as in you know, real life, if you're
a one issue voter, Yeah, I guess you can determine
the winner if you're looking at one issue and who
got the best side of it. But the deal is
way different than just um winners and losers, as we
saw with you know, even if you look at revenue,
which was kind of glanced over in the piece, you know,

(12:34):
we weren't getting high fifties percent of revenue originally because
the language didn't provide us that they were able to
take the money before we got our percentage. UM. So
even just looking at the you know, the numbers off
the top, it doesn't paint the whole story. UM. The
important parts are the language and the process and all

(12:55):
the things that go into how to get to those
answers inside the c b A, because that's how you
dictate every decision that's made in that CBA agreement. UM.
The last then goes to what D said, the facts
and for the most part. Um, the thing that I
think got players the most upset was that the facts
were um construed in a way of to create conspiracy.

(13:18):
And UM, what I immediately tasked our group with is,
let's just provide the facts to our our membership and
our leadership, and and that's how we're going to make decisions.
That's how we're gonna look at things, just through facts,
not through narratives, not through conspiracy. I mean, you bring
up the um if you look at the Drew Brees
part of the article, taking the idea UM that a

(13:40):
star quarterback at the height of his career makes a
lot of money off the field as a star quarterback
through licensing, isn't that scandalous? But when you want to
write it in a way that tries to make it scandalous,
it then, you know, destroys the credibility of anything else.
And that's why everything is just let's look at the
facts to look what we have, and let's look at this.

(14:02):
You know clearly. The lastly, you know, I feel like
I try to make myself as available as possible to
answer any questions, to talk to whoever wants to talk UM,
and I see a problem that there was no effort
made to talk to me as the president of the union,
UM to ask any questions or discuss any of the
issues either. So I think that's the main issue. And again, UM,

(14:24):
we're gonna talk to our membership and our leadership about it,
and we're just gonna present the facts and we're gonna
have an open discussion with them, and UM, I think
we'll be all the better for it. But j C
and in the fact that and ask that you guys
have gotten two c b as done in the last
couple of years, right, because you guys had to renegotiating
stuff this year with the COVID UH protocols and things
like that. Where do you think the relationship is? I mean,

(14:47):
because you know, we saw some of the conversations at
the Super Bowl between d and Roger, you were involved
in some of that. To me, it seems as healthy
um as if possibly could be in terms of a
players association and the league and trying to navigate through
COVID and trying to move things forward are for the
next ten years. But that's just an outside perspective, you know,

(15:08):
as Jim you know, asked earlier, how might the players
feel about this since they were the ones, even though
it's only by sixty votes, who voted to ratify the
initial c b A and then to go along with
so many other changes that had to be made. Basically
what happened this year, Yeah, it's UM. I think we
had to work together this year for there to be

(15:29):
a season, the two sides had to UM work together
in a sense to make the decisions UM and the
best interests of the players in health and safety in
order for this season even happen. So of course we
had to work together. I think what doesn't get shown
publicly are the hours of phone calls and fights and

(15:50):
arguments and negotiations that go into all of those decisions. UM.
I think we we worked well together. But I would
lie to you if I was if I said that
that every conversation we had about tough decisions was was
easy and rosy and once I just said yeah, sure,
that sounds great, That's that's not how the process works. UM.

(16:11):
So yeah, we worked well together. But UM, those calls
for for the e C members and the reps who
were a part of them, UM, those are contentious, difficult calls, UM,
trying to get the best deal and the best protections
the players need. Dave, what what as you look back
on the season and the unprecedented nature of it, what

(16:34):
stands out to you most in terms of maybe behind
the scenes that we don't know about in getting through
a season of COVID nineteen season and making it happen.
I think it would be that, UM. You know, early on, UM,
you know, a lot of credit to to to j C.
He you know, we were negotiating a deal, UM, ratifying

(16:55):
a deal at a time when when he's elected president. Um,
he's president for when that deal gets ratified. And and
we roll over literally the next day into COVID, and
and the first conversation that he and I you know,
had about this, because he had done his own research,
we both realized anybody could, anybody could start the season.

(17:18):
To pick up on your question, it was how do
we get through it, um, and whether we could finish it?
I mean we we were in um We're in Bradward County,
Florida for REP meeting that year. UM at a time
when March Madness shut down, the NBA had shut down. UM,
I think baseball was on its way to to not

(17:41):
to not making it through. So it wasn't. I think
behind the scenes, the most important story was that UM,
the the union and its leadership made in early decision
that the goal wasn't to start the season. The goal
was to get through the season. UH. And and that meant, UM,

(18:03):
we had to have daily testing all through this season.
And and you know, to something that j C pointed out,
those were not friendly conversations with the league at the beginning.
UM not having preseason games was not UH agreement. Why
was it? Why would there be an issue on daily

(18:24):
testing the beginning Well, early on when we started looking
at the models for how the virus spread, UM, and
it's you know, especially it's are not factor once you
start to realize just how contagious this is. Any model

(18:44):
that contemplated an unchecked spread meant that there was no
way we would get through a season. UM. The only
way that that our experts told us that we could
get through the season was having daily testing. The lead
did not want to test every day at the beginning
of this. They just simply didn't want to do it.

(19:04):
You can ask them why. I'm sure it had a
little bit to do with money. But UM, the decisions
to change the offseason to not have a full preseason
to engage in daily testing, and then the myriad of
other things that we uh plugged into these protocols. None
of those are virtually all of those UM weren't weren't

(19:26):
things that we had quick agreement with with the National
Football League. That's just a fact. So the conversation quickly
turned to you can make a decision that you may
want to test UM two days a week, three days
a week, but there was literally no model that demonstrated
a likelihood of success that didn't include daily testing and

(19:50):
aggressive contact lea UM and and probably that was the
first early battle, you know, recalling j C. That was
probably the first big skirmish that we had UM and
and look, I get it. But when we looked at
other leagues and what other schools were trying to do

(20:11):
to manage their season. UM, you could start the season
without daily testing, but there was no scenario in our
minds of how we actually complete a season without daily testing,
just real quick preci daily testing going into next season. Well,
I I think that's that's a good question. The first
question is where do we think the country will be

(20:34):
UM with respect to COVID during a time that we
would start our off season UM and training camp in
regular season. UM. I think unless there is a extremely
high likelihood that everyone UM in the country would be
vaccinated to reach the percent that we need for her immunity.

(20:58):
Unless we think that that's going to occur, or we
will arrive there by UM by by the beginning of
the season, I think daily testing is probably something that
we will at least start the season with this year.
J C was was there a point during the season
where you question whether or not you all would get
through it? M I mean, it wasn't a perfect season.

(21:23):
We we had our issues. UM. What we did have
was we we had a focus on following the science
and making decisions through that lens. So even when you
know the first I think big hiccup is obviously the
Tennessee situation, UM, but we had such a laser focus
on you know, what do we need to do to

(21:46):
keep people safe and make decisions through solely that lens. UM.
I always felt that we were going to come to
the right answer. And I think for the most part,
we did come to the right answer. UH. And like
I said, it wasn't wasn't perfect. We had to move
a handful of games, UM. But to start the year,
if you if you took an honest poll of UM,

(22:07):
you know, everybody in the NFL community, media, coaches, staffs,
players on on whether we were going to get through
you know, sixteen games the playoffs and finished with a
super Bowl on time. I don't think that number is
very high of people, uh saying yes to that. But
you know, in the end, I think the goal posts

(22:29):
moved a little bit where all of a sudden became
but you guys did move those you know, three to
five games, So it wasn't a success, right. I think
being the first league UM to have a non bubbled
um full COVID season UH is a tremendous accomplishment, and
it really goes to UM our player leadership and leading

(22:52):
those discussions and making sure to focus on the right issues.
Then it goes to everybody who walked in that building
that there needed to be as close compliance to all
of our protocols, all of our rules at all times
for it to work. UH, and and liked talked about
with how contagious this viruses. That was something we were

(23:12):
told very early from other sports leagues that have their problems,
was if this gets in the building it's going to
be a disaster, and then so much focus on, first off,
the daily testing and the ppe of making sure you
try to control that transmission and keep it out of
the building. And then after that, that's why the contact
tracing was so important and crucial, because you needed to

(23:34):
be able to figure out where this virus is moving
to next. And then when we made that shift to
the high risk close contact where you're pulling, you know,
people who are at most susceptible to getting the disease
based off of their interactions. I think that ensured us
that we were going to be safe moving forward because
it's the best way to avoid that rolling transmission that

(23:58):
we saw early on of you know what case popping
up and then another case a week later, and then
two cases and kind of that snowball effect. I'm curious
as as union president, what you've heard from membership about
just how difficult it was to get through this season.
For instance, we've talked to players individually who talked about
isolating and being away from family and those sorts of things,

(24:20):
and how unusual and how difficult it was. Um, can
you speak to as union president, which you've heard from
membership in terms of just how difficult that was that
maybe we on the outside don't understand or don't know. Yeah,
it definitely was. It definitely was hard. Again, this this
disease itself kind of just grinds you and and just

(24:41):
put you in a really difficult situation. And I can
speak to my own situation. I mean, we we have
a baby daughter born in December, in the middle of
the season, and we couldn't have family visit, uh and
and see her until we were we were done because
we couldn't risk UM potentially being exposed and then bring

(25:03):
me bringing that virus into the locker room. And and
that stuff is is isolating, you know, you not wanting
to get sick and infect your teammates. Uh. And then
the same way of you not wanting to get sick
at work and potentially bring it to somebody in your
in your householder and your family if they're visiting. And
that's that's tough. You have to you have to make

(25:25):
a lot of difficult decisions of UM. The season is
how I was. I've always looked at it as the
most social time for football players, because every wants to
come to games, Every wants to see you. Everyone wants
to be there, and this season was different where a
lot of guys didn't have that interaction that they look
forward to every season of running out to fans and
their families in the stands. Uh. That definitely, that definitely

(25:46):
wore on guys and was and was difficult. And that's
why the players deserve so much credit for, even through
those difficult times, continuing to make the right decisions for
the betterment of their teammates and everybody in that building.
Um Up, That's why the deserves so much credit. How
close did we come to not having football at all
this year? Um? If if we look at this as

(26:14):
whether or not the league was going to accept the
players positions about what it took to get through the season.
If if you just frame it up as those two
big things, If if the league would not have taken
the union's positions on all of these things, I doubt

(26:35):
we would have been able to make it through a season.
I'd go so far as to say highly unlikely. Um,
Because there were there were probably four or five failsafe
things that that if they weren't agreed to or they
weren't handled the right way. Given what j C said

(26:58):
about what our experts were telling us we would not
have been able to stop the spread of an infection
quickly enough to ensure that football would happen the next week. UM.
I think because we made some decisions very early, we

(27:19):
never got to that point of of we we never
got to that fail safe of non containment. UM. And
to j C's point, you know, did we have some
brush fires? Yes, Baltimore was a perfect example. I think
we The game was scheduled for for either a Saturday
or Sunday, I can't really remember, but we ended up
pushing that game, you know, a few days, well multiple times.

(27:42):
The reason we had to push it was because we
were unable to contain the outbreak. We we learned later
on that the reason we couldn't contain the outbreak was
because a strength and conditioning coach wasn't wearing his tracking
device and therefore the system broke down. But imagine if
we would have had a scenario where everybody wasn't mandated

(28:05):
to wear a tracer, or a system where we were
only testing every two days. I don't know, we would
have never been able to contain that to a point
where it was safe to play the game. But even
beyond the game. UM, that would have led to a
potential outbreak in other places, and and then you reach

(28:26):
a certain point where there's just too much of an
outbreak for you to control. We never got there, UM,
and and we never got there because UM. I think
we made some really good decisions, staked out some ground
very early. UM, you know, at the risk of bursting
into flames. The league did a great job of of

(28:48):
UM of mandating testing. I thought they did a great
job of of UM issuing punishments for UM protocol violations
and frankly that's out of our control, but did that UM.
And I also thought that there was a tremendous amount
of discipline by our players. I wanted to ask this

(29:08):
to follow up on this with j C. You wrote
a really fascinating letter that posted on the nfl p
A website. I think it was in December about UM
the changes to the off season program because of COVID
and what impact that would have going forward. And to
read it just a little bit, you said, I believe
the changes implemented this season have demonstrated that we can

(29:30):
put an entertained product down on the field while further
reducing wear and tear on our players bodies. Sloppy play
would usually be evident with low scoring games, a high
number of penalties, and more miss tackles, all things that
have historically been attributed to insufficship practice time to hone
our fundamentals. But we have seen the exact opposite this year,

(29:51):
with points per game at an all time high, a
decreased number of penalties, and even fewer mistackles compared to
last year. You went on to say, there's no reason
for us ever to return to the previous offseason program,
So you stay to your desire. What's the likelihood that
we're going to have changes going forward? And and that's

(30:13):
for you, indeed, both to speak to based on what
you've said there. Yeah, I mean, I think we start
with looking forward to this year. We're still dealing with COVID,
So this offseason, we are still dealing with the issues
that we were dealing with last year, where we are
as a country and and how to handle this offseason
beyond that too, though, um, I think the the benefit

(30:38):
of COVID was it forced everyone to do things differently,
and it forced us to prepare different differently, and we
proved we could prepare differently and as in any big business,
I would say, change isn't always their strong suit, and
there's always that fear of change, that a simple adjustment

(31:01):
could crash the whole thing down. And uh, you saw
it with the same thing with two days during b A.
There was this push that you can't get rid of
two day practices the guys needed. They won't be ready
to play if they don't practice twice a day, which
looking back, it sounds crazy to think that way, but
when you only have something done a certain way for

(31:23):
a long time, it just gets ingrained in your mind
that that is what it takes to be ready. And
and what Covid gave us was an opportunity to do
things differently and it proved that we could and um,
we had guys who didn't have any o t a s.
We adjusted training camp to follow the science again of
how do we ramp our bodies up to be best

(31:44):
prepared to play a season. That was our focus and
that's why we had to do away with the preseason
games because we needed to focus on the acclamation period
before going out and playing. And it it just showed
that it can be done without, you know, random nine
weeks in the off season and um in shorts and
a T shirt, And it just doesn't make sense to

(32:05):
go back to what we always did solely because we
always did it, and if this year proved that there
can be something better, well let's do something better. And
if our performance his historically was here and we had,
you know, during a ten week off season program, and
we had a zero week off season program and our

(32:26):
performance was at worst equal, if not better by what
I said, then clearly there's no real value add to
a program that's not providing any benefit when it comes
to performance. So that's something we're dealing with now, is
figuring out how to continue to follow the science and

(32:46):
make a program that is a value add, will help
our young players, will help our veteran players, will help
the teams perform, and that should be the focus, not
just well, now that COVID might be out of the woold,
we might be out of the woods with COVID, let's
just fall back on what we always did because we
always did it. We can't think that way, and it
would be a shame to think that way after everything
we've been through this year. So see, this would have

(33:09):
to be collectively bargained correct. Yeah, Yeah, We'll definitely have
to talk to the NFL about it, but I think, uh,
in the end, we should be relying on medical experts
to help shape this discussion on how best to move forward.
Health and safety always gets kind of pushed into a
player issue, but I would argue it's you know, a
team issue, owner issue, a fan issue, because those three

(33:34):
groups also want their players healthy and ready to play
at the top of their abilities. Uh, So it would
be best for everybody to focus on how to keep
our guys healthy long term. I want to ask you
about the NFL hiring practices, specifically as it relates to
head coaches. Over the last four cycles, we've had twenty
seven openings. I believe in only three have gone to

(33:56):
black men. Um, what is role or what role can
players or the union play in terms of trying to
level this playing field and creating real opportunities for men
of color who have earned through their hard work, should

(34:16):
have earned an opportunity, UM to climb the professional ladder,
and they're not getting that opportunity. Yeah, I I think
that we there is an opportunity to impact the process.
UM and UM, the league has asked for our help. UM,
they're they're gonna get our help. They may not want
it once we give it to them, but we're they're

(34:37):
gonna get it since they asked for it. But but Jim,
going back in history again, UM, we know that there
was something called the Rooney rule, and we should just
accept the fact that it didn't work, UM, because it
created a rule that had really no punishment for when

(34:59):
it wasn't followed, and it created an expectation or a
goal that, as your stat presented, wasn't achieved. Right. So
it seems to me that where we can help is
how do we make for a better process. UM. There
needs to be more transparency in the way in which

(35:22):
teams interview, um, grade and and make hiring decisions. Right now,
there there isn't. UM. There's barriers to entry. If you
need to get the permission of your team owner in
order to even apply for another position, that's a barrier

(35:43):
to entry. UM. There has to be increased accountability. There
isn't a person at every NFL team or at the
league office who has the title of chief Officer for Diversity,
UM and and include. There just simply isn't. So. As
a result, at the end of the of one of

(36:04):
these cycles. Um, there isn't a person who who is accountable. Um,
everybody on this on this podcast knows how the league works.
It It is a it is a disassembled group of
thirty one fiefdoms. Right. It has a commissioner, um who's
got the title, but perhaps a person who doesn't have

(36:27):
the ability to actually make teams do the right thing.
So at the end of the day, you have thirty
two fiefdoms. You might have a policy that's developed at
the National Football League, but there's clearly no accountability for
achieving the ends. Right. Well, de let me say this though,

(36:47):
in terms of knowing our his no, I mean, look,
if we're being frank here, we're talking about knowing our history.
It was back in in the early two thousand's, two thousand,
two thousand one where there was the threat of litigation
over discrimination as it related to head coaching practices. That
created in essence, the Rooney Rule. And it was over
the next decade that we had incremental improvements to where

(37:10):
I think we had seven or eight minority head coaches,
and then as they got fired, they were never really
replaced at the same level, you know, so to speak
to where at one point we were down to two,
I believe. So, I guess what I'm wondering is when
you have a system where the league essentially tried to

(37:31):
bribe teams to hire black coaches by saying, we'll give
you extra draft picks. Um, anytime you have to incentivize
the process to do something that's right, it's already wrong,
is what I believe. And so I guess what I'm
asking is, are we at the point now where we're

(37:52):
back to square one where really the threat of litigation
is the only thing that's going to create change here? Well, Jim,
if you're threatening litigation, you just want to fight with people,
and you just want to litigate. And you should probably
never heard that before. I never heard what would what
would that be like? Um? Perhaps if they built a
statue of you? So no, No, I mean I think

(38:17):
I think that the history of the Rooney rule, um is,
Can I just say I hate that we bring up
Rooney rule because it has nothing to do with this, doesn't. Well,
the only reason I mentioned it is I think it's
a Rooney suggestion. Right, it's not a it's not a
Rooney rule. It's a suggestion. But the history of it

(38:37):
was in response to litigation, right, And it was simply
to slow down the process, to say, if you slow
down and you interview more diverse candidates, the likelihood is
greater that you're going to or a diverse candidate will
have an opportunity to get the job right or or
in its most essential terms, it was a response to
a threat, no question right. So it seems to me

(39:00):
that the way you move forward in anything, because a
lot of things have not worked, um, UM there is
no threat, there is no consequence. UM. Gene created the
the Coaches Association in the early two thousand's with the

(39:20):
idea of helping assistant coaches unionize. I inherited that UM.
No assistant coaches wanted to unionize whatsoever. UM. We stopped
funding that organization because they didn't want to unionize to
an order to increase the increase their own power. UM groups.
There's groups out there, UM that that we know the

(39:43):
names of that kind of lend themselves to increasing diversity
in the National Football League. No one can say that
those things have helped UM. It only seems to me
that what helps the league move forward it is concrete
and real threats of things making changes. And that's why

(40:04):
I think UM coming up with with recommendations to the league,
UM from the union are are going to be important.
I in no way, shape or or form think that
it's going to be a magical switch that flips UM
and we reach you know, racial um or or gender
nirvana in the National Football League. We're not going to

(40:24):
do that. But until there is someone who has a
job UM to achieve a goal and they're going to
be held accountable if they don't reach that goal. Until
we have a transparent and accountable process, history has taught
us that we can't hope for anything more than what

(40:47):
we get. Yeah, but now you're talking about affirmative action
being well, that's all you're doing, well, I you know,
and then somebody's gonna mention the word quotas and some
of the No. What I'm talking about is if gender, racial,
and class inclusiveness is something that we all actually believe

(41:08):
is good for our country UM and good for our organizations,
how do we actually set up a process to achieve it?
And and right now we don't have that process. J C.
I'm not I'm gonna let you in on that too.
You're a player, Do players discuss this issue and it's
so what role do you think they can play and

(41:29):
trying to create positive change? Yeah, I mean they definitely
talked about it, especially as we've seen it trend in
the wrong direction as you as you talked about, and
it's been an issue that has continued to get brought
up more and more. I know our EC has had
long discussions about what we can do to better level
the playing field and and create change. I think in

(41:52):
the end, though, what it comes down to, is those
thirty two decision makers uh being okay with hiring someone
that doesn't look like that, I mean, and that's what it,
in the end comes down to, is um then making
that decision. And right now, I think they're not making
that decision. And we see it all across the country.

(42:13):
It's not just football players. You can look at the
Fortune five d CEO list and you can see that
those decisions aren't usually made that way. And and that's
what's gonna It's gonna come down to accountability of those
decision makers to make that conscious decision. The other thing
here too, and I know the nfl PA has talked
about this is nepotism. I mean, when you look at it,

(42:35):
ten of the thirty two head coaches were all related
to a former NFL coach. UM. And I think the
number of the data I got from the league last
week was there are seventy three UM coaches in the
NFL who are sons or related to a former NFL coach.
I should say, and up those seventy three fifty five

(42:58):
or white. So you're talking about only eighteen UM minorities
who are related to a former NFL coach. So how
do you deal with the nepotism issue in the NFL? Well,
I mean, you and I a little bit tongue in cheek,
we're talking about affirmative action. Isn't nepotism just affirmative action?

(43:18):
Another way, it's a deliberateness to hire somebody that you're
related to. So you know, look, I mean this offseason
we had the only owner of color hire a guy
who had a history of disparaging people of color. Well, okay,

(43:44):
I mean, the one thing we know is that simply
by increasing the diversity among ownership doesn't trickle down to
making wise and smart decisions about diversity and inclusiveness. Uh.
In the end, it seems to me all we at
want is the same deliberateness that is employed UM to

(44:06):
to use your stats for ten of the thirty two
head coaches and and seventy people who are in the
business of coaches, that the same deliberateness that has led
us to that should be a level of deliberateness UM
that should be employed to make us more diverse and
more inclusive. It's just I just keep coming back to this, Steve,

(44:29):
when we talk about fairness, do blind resumes and if
you put up blind resumes? At times people wanted to
always say, well, why shouldn't owners hire the most qualified people,
to which I always say, I agree with you a
thousand percent high are the most qualified people regardless of color.
Now let's put up blind resumes and you tell me

(44:49):
which is more qualified. And I feel very comfortable saying
if that's done, there are going to be occasions where
a minority candidate is the more qualified based on that resume,
but that person isn't being hired well, and I agree
with the Only thing I would say is whether it's
blind resumes reducing the barriers to entry um increasing the

(45:11):
pipeline of people who are qualified to even submit a resume.
All of those come down to accepting that there is
a goal that you want to achieve, and we are
going to put in a transparent and accountable process that
is likely to reach that goal. And until there, until

(45:32):
we engage in that deliberateness, right, everything that we're gonna
be doing is just hoping. I'm gonna get off my soapbox.
I'll just say this and get off of and Steve
can can go on to his next question after this.
But we have four minority head coaches in the NFL today,
they don't have one person of color on their staff
as a coordinator. Why do they feel? And and and

(45:54):
some of them, if you talk privately to former minority
head coaches, feel like they will be judged different. That
people think that they're just hiring their buddies if they
hire um, um coaches of color as coordinators. But white
head coaches don't feel that same thing. Um, there's just
something fundamentally wrong there. Um and I and I always

(46:14):
come back to this, If we won't hire our own,
how do we expect anyone else to hire us? Well,
now I'm off my soapbox. Well, and and look we
we with you and with Steve, I have always just
tried to be extremely blunt, and you know, in my
career at times too blunt. Um maybe for some people.
But what you're talking about, um is is systemic. Systemic

(46:41):
in the sense of how people are hired. But it's
also systemic in the way in which people of color
feel like they are going to be judged in a
different way or held accountable to a different standard. Right.
And so what we are trying to wrestle with now

(47:03):
and fix um is is the results of that systemic
nature of that and and and it's not going to
be fixed by one simple proposal, sure as heck is
not going to be fixed by somebody coming up with
a new tweak of a rule. UM. I think engaging
in a fair and blunt conversation about transparency and accountability

(47:28):
is a necessary first step. R j C changed gears
here for both of you guys. Actually start with j C.
Seventeen games. Um, it's been a conversation. It looks like
it is going to happen in the seventeen game regular season,
the three game preseason. Just your your you know, j
C against started with you your thoughts on a likelihood

(47:49):
of this and players, you know, we we've heard a
lot of the disenchantment of of expanding the regular season,
but now the seems like seventeen games is here. Everyone's
kind of accepting it. Just kind of the thoughts on
that health and safety issue, the revenue generating kind of
what you guys had to weigh in assessing those types
of changes to the schedule. Yeah, I mean, I think

(48:11):
the best way to look at it is in these
last cb A negotiations, the the owners um bought the
right to go to seventeen games, um, and it's their
choice to make that decision. Now, real real quick. When
you say bought the right, what exactly do you mean
they're so in exchange for that seventeenth game. There in

(48:32):
the negotiations, UM, things get exchanged for that seventeenth game,
and we received things like increasing your minimum salaries. And
like I said earlier about it, it's tough to you know,
completely tie one thing to the S and c b
A s. But that was what they did not have
the right to expand the schedule previously, and then they
wanted the right to be able to expand it. So

(48:54):
they had to give us things in order for us
to accept it. And in the end, the players voted
that what we got and in return for that seventeenth
game was enough to accept it. So at this point
it's now out of our hands. Um. They we've we've
received the benefits from that seventeenth game. Um, whether they
go to it really or not. There are some you

(49:14):
know kickers in there that that change that. But that's
really the only way to look at it is they
purchased the right and and now it's it's their decision
on when to do it, if to do it. Um,
what the best decision is on on how to make
sure that the season works the way they want to.
When you say, kickers, what do you mean by that? Well,
we have I mean do you can probably best explain

(49:35):
the media rights and everything? Well, you know, one giant
step back. Remember the two thousand six deal gave the
owners the right to go up to eighteen nineteen games
with without negotiating with the union. So one of the
ways that we talked about buying the right, we took
that right away from the unilateral right away from the

(49:57):
owners in the eleven deal, they bought the right to
go to seventeen games in deal. Um. We also structured, um,
the media deals in a way that if the deals
reach a certain bogeye of of generating revenue, it increases

(50:18):
our share of revenue going to the players. So the
way the Kickers work is we wanted to build a
system where both sides benefited from a being aggressive in
the new TV deals. But also if we were going
to move to seventeen games, we knew that that would

(50:39):
come with increased media and we wanted, um, an extra
share of that media coming to players. I mean, sorry,
media dollars coming to players in any ever? Serious? I
guess I got close to you, add adding a second
by we talked about health and safety. Was there ever
that ever get serious? We're getting sex week? Yeah, I'm sorry.

(50:59):
We we started to jobs, but but we talked about it.
That came up during during bargaining a few times. The
league has a lot of reasons that they pushed back
on on an extra bye week, primarily of how it
it would impact playoffs and timing of of the Super Bowl. Um,
because they look at a media window about how to

(51:20):
get the most revenue from a media window. UM, they
didn't want to go to uh to an extra bye week. UM,
And that's where we are right now. One thing I
wanted to be clear on though as of now, d
you guys are expecting this offseason to be under the
same guidelines and protocols of last offseason. Is that correct?
I think I'd be fair to say. I think that's

(51:41):
where the country is with covid um right now. And
and we certainly do have some things that we have
to collectively bargain because the things, some of the things
we did last year, we're only one year um, one
year deals. Um, But I think the frame of it
is is probably where we were last year. Okay, um,
set only just clearing up here, cleaning up? You will

(52:02):
be running in September? Correct, Um? Actually I'm up in
March of twenty to the UH executive committee. We have
a process where they evaluate me in September, and they're
gonna evaluate me in September, and your plan is to
run in twenty two. Uh. My wife's not not here yet,

(52:26):
So why why don't I talk to her first? And
Uh I don't. I've told her since that I was
gonna leave the job the next year, So, UM, why
don't I try to keep that street going? I love
my job and I did working for the players. I
serve at the pleasure of the players. Um, I don't.

(52:48):
I don't have any intention on going anywhere anytime soon.
All right, well said well j C. Trator and to
Morris Smith, we thank you so much for joining us
here on the huddle and flow. This is a very
important conversation and again we appreciate your frankness and your
transparency and your honesty. Uh and just you know, wish
you the best moving forward yet. Thank you, thank you

(53:09):
very much. Thank you. Guys. Steve want to thank j C.
Trader and Demorris Smith were coming on. You know, I've
heard a lot about j. C. Trader. Don't know him personally,
just in terms of what kind of guy he is,
how focused he is on the job and hand those

(53:29):
sorts of things. And I think the union leadership is
in the players are in good hands with j C.
Because he's looking out for the players and de Moorris
you know, he is always gonna come under fire. You know,
anyone in that position is going to come under fire.
I find it interesting now that people would say he's
too close to the commissioner. That was the same thing
they said about gene Up Charlotte polytagonical and I was

(53:51):
one of those people, you know, he said, it's too
chummy a relationship. And then I saw the acrimony between
the Morris Smith and Roger Goodell early on, I said,
this isn't the way to go either. So it seems
like you just can't satisfy people no matter what you do.
And it's you know, it's funny because at the Super
Bowl I moderated Roger Goodell's annual news conference, uh to

(54:13):
the reporters who are handing virtually, and then Demoors Smith
came came on a little bit later. They answered a
couple of questions together and they stood by and chatted,
and I had people from both sides, from the p
A and from the NFL, say this is the best
that they've gotten along because we know it was you know,
you're almost gonna get him in the same room. It was.
It was that antagonistic, and I didn't see anything wrong

(54:34):
with it. Again, I used the NBA and the nb
p A example. I'm sure they have their their divergent
missions and what they want to accomplish, but they found
a way to work best for everyone to succeed. Now
everyone's gonna get what they want to get. It's gonna
get ugly at times. Um, but again to see that
there is sustained labor peace. We can say whatever we
want about it as the fan, as the media member,

(54:57):
as whatever. We know there's gonna be stability for in
the next ten years regards of Egano McDonald turns, upturns whatever,
for this great game that we cover and we're fortunate
to talk about all the time. So I mean, I
think that's a good thing in despite the personality. What
people want to say Demorris Smith is just Roger Goodell,
is that they're working together again for the for the

(55:18):
best interests of a whole lot of people. I'm telling you,
particularly in this year, for this past season where it
was such a difficult time in this country, where folks
needed an outlet. And we can sit here in debate
whether or not they should have played at all when
you talk about players safety and the pandemic and everything else.
But one thing we did see, as de Morris and
j C talked about, is they took every conceivable step

(55:40):
to protect themselves if they were going to play, including
daily testing. So um, yeah, well, I you know, we
always say sports is like the Great Escape, if you will,
and if ever there were a time we needed an
escape over the last year, last fall was it. So

(56:02):
props to the players, the league, the wives, the coaches, executives,
employees for all taking this seriously, taking the right steps
and protecting themselves and everyone else to get through a season.
Absolutely with Jim, another great podcast, you canna thanks j
C and the Morris Smith for joining us. Next week

(56:25):
we're gonna have rams superstar cornerback Jalen Ramsey you know,
and uh, Jim, Jalen's got some opinions. No, you know
what Jay? I mean, here's the thing. Man follow him
on social media. I mean, he's he doesn't just fire
off like triggered stuff. It's like real thoughtful stuff. And

(56:46):
he's had some real thoughtful stuff to say about the
Shawn Watson situation. So when we get him on, we're
gonna ask him about that, and I'm sure he's gonna
be absolutely fantastic. But until the m until then, Jim,
wan't you bring his home. Yeah, we thank you for listening,
We thank you for subscribing. Please leave us messages in
terms of what you'd like to hear, who you'd like

(57:07):
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(57:31):
are out.