March 31, 2021 • 48 mins
The former Browns head coach gives it straight, no chaser to Steve and Jim about why he says he was made a scapegoat during his short tenure in Cleveland (04:33). Jackson explains how he stood his ground for Myles Garrett when the front office wanted to pick quarterback Mitchell Trubisky with the #1 overall pick in the 2017 Draft (10:05). He also sheds light on why he was prepared to leave the Browns before being given a contract extension during his 1-23 stretch (12:52). Jackson details why he was “shocked” at being fired and why he believed offensive coordinator Todd Haley wanted to take his job (19:41). Jackson says he still doesn’t understand Baker Mayfield’s beef with him (26:06), and believes his coaching career is over because he shouldered the blame for the Cleveland debacle (27:36). Jackson also addresses the diversity issue among coaches and what he’s doing to improve it (38:06). (*NOTE: Huddle & Flow reached out to the Cleveland Browns for a response to Jackson's comments...the team declined.)
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Coming up on Huddling Flow, there is no career, and
let's just be honest. I haven't coached in three years.
If it wasn't for Marvin Lewis, I wouldn't have been
coaching anyway after I left Oakland. So let's let's just
be very honest about what has gone on. And that's
why I do feel like it's so important to tell
the story, and not just about my career. I have kids,
(00:22):
have kids who look up to me, who walked through
this just as well, and their dad's got to sit
there and not be honest about what happened. I mean
to me, what bothers me the most? I'm telling the
truth and can can back all of this up, and
everybody sees it as a problem. The truth in this
world is now a problem. You're not so you weren't
(00:43):
able to tell the truth. That's next on Huddling Flow.
All right, everybody, welcome to the second scoop of the
(01:07):
Huddle on Flow podcast. This week, I am Steve White
with my brother Jim Trotter, two thirds of the Howard
University of Mapia, our producer Thomas Warren. On the Ones
and Dudes. He completes the puzzle again. The Huddleful podcast
brought you by into it the problem makers of QuickBooks,
Turbo Tax and Mint and Jim Today, real serious episode, right.
(01:28):
We We've got former Brown's and Raider's head coach Hugh
Jackson on here. He was getting ready to release a book. Um,
but he comes on Jim and he speaks his truth
about a lot of the behind the scenes stuff of
what happened with the Cleveland Browns. This is some heavy stuff, people,
and some of the things he hopes what he experienced
can benefit, particularly coaches of color moving forward. Yeah, you know,
(01:53):
Stevie pulls back the curtains on what it's like to
be a head coach in the NFL and to deal
with management, to deal with ownership it and a lot
of times coaches can't speak about it immediately after they're
let go because their contracts prohibit them either from saying
anything negative about an organization or their n d A
s And there, Well, Hugh was contract with the Browns expired,
(02:14):
so he's now free to speak, and that's what he's doing.
You know, he's a man who you can tell it
doesn't appreciate the perception that this was all his fault
and his fault only, and he says he accepts his
responsibility and the struggles that the Browns had, but it
runs much deeper than one man. So it's interesting to
hear his viewpoint on this. You remember, Hugh Jackson has
(02:37):
not coached since he was fired from the Cleveland Browns.
Who want to make this clearer too. We did reach
out to the Browns um after we record this interview,
UM to see if they had anything to say about
some of the things Hugh Jackson levies, and they declined
to comment on this, so we did reach out. So Jim,
(02:58):
let's get right to it. Here's Jackson. M all right,
j G. Now we are joined by our special guests,
a good friend about for a long time, Hugh Jackson. Hugh,
Welcome to the Huddle Flow Podcast. Hey, I'm excited to
be here. It's always great to see Hope you men.
(03:18):
You guys have done a great job. I appreciate you, Hugh,
you out there making news. Huh, yes, I am I finally. Uh.
You know, I've had to sit in the raptorable while
and not say anything, and UM, now that I can,
I think the story needs to be told. Why now,
(03:39):
what is it at this point that that you want
to step forward and speak about your experience in Cleveland. Well, Jim,
it goes back to just what I said. I mean,
there have been everybody created and creating the narrative of
what went on in Cleveland during my time, and I
could not say nothing found by contract in those things,
and I felt like people did. No. I've been buried,
(04:01):
I've been vilified as a bad coach, didn't know what
I was doing, just the whole nine yards, and so um,
there's only so much anybody can take. And it's not
just for me and I look at it, it's also
for the minority coaches that are coming up. I don't
I don't want to see this happen to anybody ever again.
And more so than that, I think me not coaching
(04:22):
has impacted the hiring some minority men who have been
in a situation where they have been offensive coordinators because
of what my record has been. And I don't think
that's very either. So you tell us what happened. What
is it that you want to clear up? What I
wanted to clear up is what I went to Cleveland
to do is not and what they told me we
(04:44):
were gonna do is not at all what we did.
I went there to win. You know, I think you
guys know obvious the head coach of the Raiders A
and eight believe there you you end up believing because
I dies, I have to go to Cincinnati and coach
on defense. And I just think about that eight and
eight head coach, top ten offensive team and can't get
(05:04):
a job. So then I had to go coach on
the offense. And I say that for this reason because
if I was going to take another head coaching job,
after I work, we back up off from defense, back
over the offense, coaching running backs become for football writers
offensive coach of the year. In then there were certain
things that had to be in place for me to
take another job. I just got fired after being eight
(05:26):
and eights. And the number one thing that I made
Brickler as I need to win. I needed to win.
I need to be in a situation where I could
do something special. And then I wanted to support that
I needed in order to create winning. And if you
go look at my press conference, that's exactly what I
was told I was going to get. And after being
there for about a month and a half, I started
(05:47):
realizing that this is going down the wrong road. This
is became become uh analytical process, you know at the time,
so it was analytics versus football. They were going to
prove that coaches and scouting did not know what they
were doing and that analytics could run an organization. And
I had to stand out in front of that and
(06:08):
I thought it for two straight years hard. I have
documentation where I wrote the owner several times about this
needed to stop because I knew it was going to
career kill careers, gonna Claire's coaches, everybody, and it was
gonna a sudden turn the fans on me. And that's
exactly what it did, real quickly before we get there.
(06:31):
I just wanted so and I got two here. But
first of okay, so when you were going through this process,
you because I remember this like yesterday, Now, what did
they tell you was going to be the plan? And
you said it took you know, a month and a
half point you realized, you know, you've been hoodwinked. So
what was the original conversation about what was going to
(06:54):
happen with the process of you being their head coach.
We're going to get to winning as fats as we
can We're going to give you the resources that you need.
We're going to hire a experience GM to prepare with
you in order to get this organization where it needs
to be, and whatever resour other resources we need, we're
going to supply you. Okay, So before that, because again
(07:18):
I remember this, because I remember when you took that job.
I think a lot of us were like why, because
we knew what the Browns were before we got there.
We knew how good of a coach you were, and
I know you had interviewed, I believe for the Niners
and a couple other teams. So was this a situation
where you were like, I'm not gonna get offered any
(07:39):
other head coaching jobs, so let me go to this one,
even knowing what the reputation of the Browns was. And Steve,
I appreciate you saying and I didn't know what the
reputation was, and I was going to get offered by
other I did have other opportunities. I made a decision
based on what was shared with me. I mean, again,
(07:59):
I want to make it very clear, as a minority coach,
I knew I couldn't go take a job where I
was going to have an opportunity to lose, and no
nobody would do that. Nobody would do that and kill
their own career. So obviously people were saying the things
to me that needed to be said in order for
me to feel couple intend a job. I could have
stayed and had a chance to go to New York.
(08:21):
I could have stayed in Cincinnati became the head coach there.
So it wasn't that I didn't have opportunities. I wanted
my own opportunities like anybody else would. But I did
it because I was told and promised certain things that
didn't come to fruition. Here can you give me and
and the audience an example of where football ran into analytics?
(08:42):
Um that they would understand. Okay, So when you think
about analytics the analytic processes, it's all about historical data.
It's about taking the data and comparing a player to
where they are now to potentially where they could be
in the future. What people don't understand. Someone has to
input that information. Somebody has to give it the subject matter.
(09:06):
And if you don't take that from coaches who have
the experience and wisdom of having done it, then it's
probably not going to come out very well. So what
was really happening. They was creating their own formats on
how they wanted to get this information, and they were
not using the coaches wisdom knowledge. So again, and I
(09:26):
have nothing against the player what at all, but you
take Cody Kessler, who we drafted in the third round.
His the information said he was going to be a
great player. But when you look at it through my
eyes through an experienced coach who has coach quarterbacks, I
didn't see that. I saw a really good quarterback at USC.
It was a really good college quarterback. Could he transcend
(09:48):
and get a plant quarterback in the National Football League?
I did not see that, but their data points to
that he would be. So that's where you start to
have analytics versus coaching, and analyt diggs are now telling
the coaches what is good. It's not the coaches telling
analytics what's good. You take me back to UM the
(10:09):
Miles Garrett draft. I'm particularly interested in that. With the
stories I've heard, what was that process like and how
did it play out? It was really hard. I think
everyone knows that we were needing a quarterback and we
were and Mitchell Robinski was seeing um, you know, by
the organization as the best quarterback in the draft. I
(10:32):
did not agree with that. Um. I thought Miles Garrett
was the best player period, because I think he's a
generational talent. I think everybody knew, I still want to
tell you, and fought extremely hard for Miles Garrett to
be on that football team. Whereas at the last second, Yeah,
I think the other side came around and said he
was right. But it was a lot of big from
(10:53):
back and forth because I was not going to publicly
or privately support the decision that we took Mitchell Drobiski
because I didn't think that that was I didn't think
he was the first pick of the draft quarterback. But
I want to be clear. I want to be clear.
I want to be clear the organization was prepared to
take Mitchell Drabinsky number one overall. Correct. Oh, absolutely didn't know.
(11:17):
There's no question like that. Okay, So look right now,
the Bears have been dragged for years for trading up
to take Mitchell Drabinsky and passing on to Shawn Watson
and Mahomes the Cleveland Browns look. It was almost universal.
Hugh talking to people, the Miles Garrett was the best
player in the draft MHM and the Cleveland. Now, who
(11:37):
was if you don't mind, since we're telling you who
was pushing the hardest for Mitchell Trabinsky and who did
you have to flip to get to Miles G Well,
I mean, obviously Sashi Brown was leading the charge with
Andrew Barry and Paubly the best. I mean, the same people.
That's what gets me today. The same people were talking
about other than Sashi or in paid visions and running
(12:00):
the organization today. So I just don't understand, you know.
And so obviously they were doing something right. They were
figuring out something, but I think in real time, you
were figuring out what they could do, what would work
in this process, and what would work. And that's why
we're sitting here today having this conversation. How did you
(12:21):
flip them? But that's the thing you said, flipped them.
I think I was very strong first in my not
gonna support it. I wasn't going to stand back out
there again and make the mistake I've been vilified about
saying just trusting on cotquestl right. I was not going
to stand out there. We took a court back first
overall that I didn't believe it and say I'm with
(12:43):
this all the way. Like I did with that, I
wouldn't gonna do it anymore. So I told him privately
or publicly supported if you take Mitchell Trobiscuit. Here's the
other thing he and I know you've talked about this,
excuse me elsewhere, that you were prepared to walk away
from the Browns um and they persuaded you to stay.
(13:05):
The owner Jimmy hasn't persuaded you to stay in part
by offering you an extension. Take us through that process
and what was going on and how that played out. Well,
we played the Minnesota Vikings and in in London and
came back and very honestly had a meeting. So there
was a group of players I'm not going to get
into depth of what it was that had a meeting
(13:27):
with ownership with Jimmy ind and told them how they
felt and which was again that they needed to improve
the roster, that we needed better players, that we need
to be in a better situation. I mean these players,
and like I said, I'm not going to get into names,
they knew and understood what was going on. They could
feel it. I mean, your player that's competing, you're given
(13:49):
your all you're practicing, and now you don't have an
opportunity to win. You don't want to keep continue to
put your body out there on the line like that.
So now here we go. In that same week, you know,
which is right around October, I saw her the contract extension.
What people have to understand is I was in the
room with my agent and my wife at the time.
(14:11):
So this is not b asked. I mean I laughed
the way people think, well, there's no way that's gonna happen.
Jimmy d was there. Jimmy apologized to me and her
about what he had put us through and what we
have been going through. So here's the contract extension. Okay.
And at the time, I'm gonna one and twenty three coach,
and I told him I would accept it if there
(14:32):
was three things that would happen. If he made it public,
because then it would take it off of me. It
would take what had been going on with me and
all of a sudden clear that up, because then the
fans would say, wait a minute, this, this hasn't been
right for him. And if he would come out and
it's and tell people exactly what had been going on
(14:53):
up to that point, and the third thing was to
go get us better players. That's exactly what I asked.
None of those things were done. So way number one
was taken off to come out publicly, come out publicly
about the contract extension and what was to come back
out and clear my name about that. I did not
(15:13):
know about this process exactly what was going to happen,
that there was going to be a tear down of
the football team. I was never told that. As I
say to you, man, what coach would take a team
in his second opportunity of becoming a head coach, especially
a minority coach, and go be the lead of a
tear down. I mean, I was a coordinator and I'm
(15:34):
making great money. I don't it wasn't about money. It
was about winning, which is this to win? We don't
do this to lose, you know. And so it's just
so amazing that people can't connect the dots. Nobody wants
to really dig in and try to connect the dots.
But that's what I asked, and that I said, we
needed to get better players on this team. And what
(15:54):
happened after that obtually saw she was let go in
King John Dorsey and there did become a more influx
of players into the organization. So what happened from that point?
Why did it not improve? It didn't the rest of
the year where you can't make any changes or trades.
You know, we're past the midwaiting to see that, you know.
(16:16):
And so again go look at the roster we had.
We had three run backs that that never won a game.
But I'm supposed to fashion a way and fix away
to have them win, which we the staff, the players,
And I'm not putting down any players, even when I
talk about Cody Kester, I'm not. They're all great people.
But winning in the National Football League it takes a
(16:38):
certain type of player in order for you to win players,
I should say, and I think we all know that,
and that's what we were missing, Hugh, when when we
talk about analytics a lot of time, look, analytics are
party NFL, usually for situational football and things like that.
To the team to apply it. You know, of course
it's a player acquisition, but it sounds here the way
if you could just explain right for people who made
(17:00):
out no, because I will, I would lay it out
in the simple terms, and you take you may have
a receiver in college who's averaging nine yards a catch,
and he's super fast and everything else, so everyone thinks
this is a game breaker when those yartists told us
could simply be because he ran nothing but go routes. Right,
He's not a case to catch and run guy. He's
not a great route running guy. And that's where football
coaching comes in. If you could explain how, at least
(17:22):
in terms of player acquisition, analytics is used and the
difference between how football coaches view it and how the
analytical people view it, because I think that's something that
just it gets thrown together in a pot, especially when
us in the media are talking about it, and folks
may not understand why football people get driven crazy sometimes
about the analytical term and how it's used. Absolutely because
(17:46):
you think of analytics, it is all driven by numbers.
There's a numbers and it's about the computer. It's what
the computer tells you. But what people don't understand someone
has to input that innation into the computer. What is
or what are the data sets that you're using. What
are you using to make the decisions about what type
of player this is if you're not using a coach's
(18:08):
wisdom about his his vision and his profile of a player,
it's gonna tip different. So if the coaches are leading
the analytics, you have a better chance of having it
worked up an overlap together. When analytics is the total
lead and that's all you do, it's never gonna work
(18:29):
with coaches because coaches were experienced. We're our own algorithms
for our own thought process because we do it over time.
We understand the heighth weight, speed, the determination to grit,
all the other non essential things that people think are
when you think of the analytics, because they can't measure
hard they can't measure determination, they can't measure hard work.
(18:51):
So those things are so important to have any real
good football player. And that's what analytics can't tell you.
It can't. It can't. Did you any information on those things?
So An, let's talk about player acquisition and things like this.
You know, I was in that building an awful lot
when you're coaching there. M hmm. There was some divisiveness
(19:11):
on that coaching staff too that that did not seem
like the most united coaching staff. Did you put that together?
I mean, analytics had nothing to do with that, did it.
Now you're talking about at the end because the coaching
staff right toward toward towards, towards the end, towards the end. Well, absolutely,
we had two coaches that came from different organizations, and
one was a bad mess. I mean there's no question
(19:31):
about that. I mean that, I've said it several times.
I can go and change anything. I never would have
hired Tied Haley on our football team. I mean that
was a bad, bad decision here. What what's the conflict
between the two of you, you and time? Why did
it not work? I think Todd one of my job,
Let's just be honest. It was playing simple. He came
(19:55):
there and he's seen a one and thirty one coach,
did not know exactly what the process had been and
what had happened there. I think he made a decision
I'm all in and trying to unseek this guy. Let's
just not that's what it was. Period. How did you
realize that very quickly, very quickly in training camp? And
don't think that I didn't make that, No, I don't
(20:16):
think that we had had conversations about all the insubordination
that went on in order to move on back and
so that never happened, either conversations with ownership or conversations
with conversations with Todd, conversations with ownership, conversations with John Dorset.
All this document m so so hugh. So when we
(20:37):
saw that, when when the when the public saw that
clip on Hard Knocks, you know, when when Freddie Kitchens
and Todd spoke up, how far down the line were
you in terms of that fracture? It was It was
really the beginning of the fracture. But you can see it,
and you can see it till because what had happened
was I mean, there's no coaching that's I'm going to
(20:58):
training camp and not cover when players are gonna not
be practicing. This wasn't the same on that day. That's
why you come back earlier. You have all these meetings,
you know, and we had two years of data that
says if these particular players don't practice every day, they
don't get pull muscles. So the staff knew that way
(21:18):
before that conversation never happened. Now maybe they take notes,
they didn't understand it, but it's just really interesting when
you think about it. The guys that asked the question,
what my guys who had been on the staff from
about two new coaches, so they knew exactly what was
going on. It was a new him, so that I
was very surprised on how that happened. But at the
end of the day, I still get surprised when people
(21:39):
get mad because you say, this is my bus and
I'm gonna I wasn't a head coach. I'm not saying
anything wrong. I mean that's the way sometimes. And if
people knew the conversations that go on when the cameras
are not there, they at some of the conversations that
happened in coaches meeting worlds. So we we took that
and made it so big and I just laughed. But
(22:01):
they made it big because I was a coach that
had been losing. The coach that's losing shouldn't say anything
that's a joke. Hugh, When did you realize that that
your job was in jeopardy? Honestly, Jim, I knew my
job was in jeopardy after the first year. I mean
I came to win. I didn't come to lose. You can't, well, no, no,
(22:22):
I you know, I can stand in front of a
team and think that it's gonna be okay and think
you're gonna make it. No, I get that I'm saying, though,
after the Peers, they have made some of the changes
that you wanted in terms of now you got a
football man in with Dorsey, You've got the number one
pick in the draft. They go out and draft Baker Mayfield. Um,
(22:43):
so I'm assuming you believe that you're on the right
track now. Oh yes, Oh, I see you're saying, yeah, Jim,
I thought after the contract extension, things were gonna be good.
You know, we were going to make the changes that
we needed, We're going to get better football players, and
that we would be trending in the right direction. Every
said we were. Now there were some other issues, you know,
within like you said, the staff, and we just talked
(23:05):
about those a little briefly. But we were playing better,
we were competing better. We had been in four overtime games.
We had won two games, and and there's three or
three of the others we should have won. So I
was feeling better. So I don't know that I ever
thought that my job was in jeopardy. And then we
went and played Tampa Bay and I made a statement
(23:27):
after the game that I wanted to help on the
offensive side of the ball because I didn't see him
movement that I was looking for and I wanted to
really dive in and help. And then then to me
that was a problem again, you know, as the head
coach and the guy who was an offensive coach, I'm
not supposed to say anything. Who says you're not supposed
to say? Well, the media whatever me. They said, Hey,
you know, boy, Todd is such a great coordinator, he's
(23:50):
the the coordinator. He should just stay off of that.
He needed to be involved in the offense at all. Um,
that's not his thing. I'm the head coach. So what
were the conversation like when you find out when they
released you? Well, I mean, I'm gonna go on record
send this because I need to, because it's the truth.
I was shocked because Jimmy told me on that Wednesday
(24:12):
before we played Pittsburgh that we were moving on. He
told me clear He came in the office and told
me clearly, said Hugh, he says, I am regardless of
the outcome of the game, We're gonna move on from Todd. Period.
I've never been more excited in my life. And I did.
I talked to two coaches on my staff and told them,
(24:32):
so I'm this again. People can go check this all
they want. I felt. I felt relieved, Hey, we're gonna
have a chance to move forward. Here me get this
offense together. I thought we had a really good team,
and I thought we had a chance. And sure enough,
we're gonna play Pitchburgh. We lose. After the game, I
started feeling first, there was a feeling of feeling good
(24:53):
when I drove into the building because I'm saying Todd
is going to be gone, because I thought that was
what was holding us back. I really did. And then
all of a sudden that morning, I can't find anybody.
I can't find Peter, John Baptiste, I can't find Jimmy,
I can't find anybody. We have a staff meeting. I
go back in my office and then walks John Dorsey
and Jameson and that's when they proceeded to tell me
(25:18):
that they were moving in the direction. But I got
piste off because I'm listening to John Dorsey tell me
I lost the team. You gotta be kidding me. Lost
the team and we're playing four overtime games and competing
like we were competing. No, I have a coach that
is creating an issue on offense that I need to
get rid of. And move forward and get this offense
so where it needs to be so we can play
commentary football. Why do you think they that Jimmy has
(25:41):
the flaps? I have no idea. I have no idea.
And again when you look at it, because what he
told me in the meeting, he was losing, and I
was very clear with him. Jimmy the losing, I mean
he was forced losing for two years that I stood
in front of for the organization and took it. So
now when we have a chance, we have better players,
now you're gonna tell me it's time to go. That
(26:04):
made no sense to me. Ugh, here's here's And it's interesting,
you know, hearing you tell all this and spill all
this so clearly the acrimony with Todd Haley, and then
you have the situation. I can't remember it was later
that season and next season, you guys, you're you're back
with Cincinnati. Baker Mayfield doesn't shake your hand and says
(26:25):
some things, and you said you were surprised by that
because you thought you were cool with Baker. Do you
think the stuff with with you know that was that
was Todd Haley who would maybe poisoned Baker against you.
Or do you think you know why was that? Because
I remember your initial comments like I, hey, I thought,
I mean Baker were good. I don't. I don't know
where that's coming from. I'd be at first to tell you, See,
I don't have the answer to that. I don't know if, if,
(26:47):
what happened or how it happened, but I wouldn't be
surprised if if some of all those things are involved
in it, because at the end of the day, I
did not see anything like that with Baker. I mean
I was the one to help draft Baker number one overall.
I didn't coach Baker. I wasn't Baker's play caller. I did.
I spent in time with Baker, not a lot. It's
only one time I brought him in after the first
(27:10):
game of the year and sat down to watch football
with him. Other than that, that was really it because
he had a new quarterback coach obviously coaches MPs was
there and then Todd Hayley was was a coordinator. So
I had to let to me my presence I felt
would have overshadowed everything if I just stayed over there
and started coaching. I needed to let them be the
best version of them. That was me delegating authority. And
(27:32):
so when I look up now this guy is acting
like this with me, I was a little surprised. Here.
Let me, I'm curious as to your concern, if any,
about coming forward now and what it could do for
your career. There is no career, and let's just be honest.
I haven't coached in three years. If it wasn't for
(27:53):
Marvin Lewis, I wouldn't have been coaching anyway after I
left Oakland. So let's let's just be very honest about
what has gone on. And that's why I don't feel
like it's so important to tell the story, and not
just about my career. I have kids, have kids who
look up to me who walked through this just as well,
and their dad's got to sit there and not be
honest about what happened. I mean, to me, what bothers
(28:15):
me the most? I'm telling the truth and can can
back all of this up, and everybody sees it as
a problem. The truth in this world is now a problem.
You're not so you weren't able to tell the truth. No,
no college opportunities either, or do you want to bother college? Oh?
I would go to college in a heartbeat. But I
haven't had a chance that really anything. To be honest
(28:36):
with you, I mean, and I understand why people think
I was at one and thirty one coach there are
the one who and I was a part of it.
I take my responsibility in it. But at the same time,
to say it's just me, I just to me, that's
not right. Let me let me ask you this. You
with you're saying you don't want other minority coaches to
walk into situations blindly and get looked upside the head.
(28:59):
Jim and I. You know, we had David kully on
from who who took took the Houston Texans head coaching job. Um,
we all have heard, we all have known, We've talked
to people about the dysfunction going on down there. David
Culley was the only black head coach to get hired
this hiring cycle. And I'm just using him as an
example because we wish him. He's a wonderful man and
we wish him the best. But it seems again that
(29:22):
a black head coach is getting is getting a situation.
The only situation offered him is one where he's a
placeholder for the next guy. Because he's gonna be going
through a tear down like how you went through when
you see a situation like this. And again I'm just
using him as an example. Is this another reason why
I mean, again, maybe it's not him, but you're you're
(29:42):
coming out and speaking like guys. Not every job is
a good job. Something that Jim has has said since
we started this podcast and before then. Is this kind
of the warning shot you want to fire so future
people don't walk into situations where they've got a sog
getting ready to split them in the head. And you
better truly understand your contract. I mean, I know agents
(30:05):
are responsible, but you better make sure you truly understand
your contract and what you're hired to do and what
decisions you're gonna be able to make. But you said it,
I don't want guys ever through this because it's painful.
And if you're put in a situation where you can't,
I mean, everybody say just leave right where you're gonna go.
(30:26):
I mean, you have nowhere to go, you know, so
you have to either stay and fight it and try
to get it right or did the people who hired
you did they they do old bait and switch At
the last second, and now you're in a tough spot,
you know, so I think you guys got to really
make sure that they dig in and understand and ask
those deep digging questions before you take any times. But
(30:49):
have your eyes and ears open to everything. But but
is it really just a matter of asking or is
it a matter of potentially having to get things in writing? Oh?
You in terms of I mean you have to get
them in right. There is no h If it is
not writing, it's not gonna happen. I don't care what
it is. It better all being right, you know. You
(31:11):
you talked about Andrew Berryan and de Podesta and some
of the guys who were there with the analytics guys
there there. Now, yeah, team went to the team went
to the play that too much of the playoffs this year.
Well they gotta they have a really good absolutely, But
that's that's the two years of understanding what was needs
to make the process work. And now I think they're
doing it through the through the coaches lens and not
(31:33):
through the analytical lens. Look, it could have worked when
I was there, There's no question. But you have to
work together. You can't have different plans. But the coach has,
so I think they're working together. Look, I'm glad that
things are going great for the Cleveland Browns. I want
to see them do well. I have no hard feelings
towards the team and them doing well. My art feelings
(31:54):
are is the two guys who are running it was
there in the one and thirty one and a part
of all of this. And so either they're saying they
did something right in order to still be there and
being paid for what they did. Are you kidding me?
That shouldn't be that way. So if that's the case,
it was turn down and they lost, and I should
be reverend too for doing exactly what they wanted to
(32:16):
have happened, which was to lose. You have you heard
from anyone there, particularly since you have come out and
started speaking. I'm not going to hear from anybody from there.
It's just so funny. So I'm in a contract yesterday. Hey,
here's my challenge to anybody. Well, tell them that they
didn't give me a contract. Let's let's go. I mean,
(32:37):
I'm tired of people saying huge line about everything. So
let's if that is the case, tell them, let's not
do to no comment, Say no, we didn't give you
one and then I prove them wrong. I'm not gonna
come on. I'm not gonna come on here in that conversation,
especially with two men I respect and anybody else I've
had conversations with if I am not being forthcoming and truthful,
(32:58):
and I have all the documentation to back it all up.
I have always said in no comment as a confirmation
if if it's a lie or it's wrong, and it's
easily provable, and improve it, and if you choose not to,
then you're confirming it. So and look, Hugh, Jim and
I have known you for years, man, We've had some
(33:18):
some really great conversations. And so my thing is this,
if you're saying there there is no career for you
in coaching, what do you know? What what are your
what are your plans? And what is it something that
you would like? Can I say this before Hugh answers
that that bothers me to no end? From this? You can?
You cannot like you personally, and I get their personality
(33:41):
conflicts all throughout the league, but no one can say
that Hugh Jackson doesn't know football and it's not a
good football coach. You can't say it and be taken seriously.
Now you can debate whether you feel he's a good
head coach or not. I'm not speaking to that, but
in terms of football, you can't tell me Hugh jack
and doesn't know football, and for him not to be
(34:01):
in the league or coaching someplace to me is wrong.
And that's just my personal opinion. So I'm sorry I interrupted. No,
I'm glad you did know Here here you can go
out ahead and address it. No, I appreciate you guys
saying that. My My biggest concern is people don't like
when people put the truth out there. And I'm just
(34:22):
being honest. I mean, people have moved on and they
don't want to deal with this. But I am supposed
to sit in the corner and just taet. The other
assistant coaches that I have, they're just supposed to take it.
The players that played for me, they're supposed to take
They're all wearing this one in thirty one, and I
think that's fair. If we have to wear it, then
everybody should wear and then everybody should be very transparent
(34:43):
about what happened to take it off of everybody so
we can't move forward. I have coaches that are said
that home that have nothing to do, and they are
very good coach, and they're all the families that I
brought to the Cleveland Browns and put those people in
situations to fail. That's not right and that hurts me
more than anything. How involved his ownership in terms of
(35:06):
the either the day to day or the seasonal running
of a team with the hassums, How involved are they?
I mean some people, there are some organizations I've been
in that are not. There's some organizations I didn't where
the owner is is very hands on and wants to
know all there. When I was there, he wanted to
know all And I get it. And not only no,
(35:28):
but I mean how much did he put his fingerprints
on determining what was done and what wasn't done? Well,
I mean they never determine what was done offensively or
defensively or specified. But they would be comments about players,
certain players and things that people want to see. And
I get that, but I just think, you gotta you
hire people to do those shots. Let them do those shops.
(35:50):
Give them the opportunity because they have the expertise to
do it. Let them do it. But I get it.
The owners, they it's their team. They can do whatever
they want and they see it through their eyes. I'm curious,
and I'll leave it on this just was there a
point in terms of personnel decisions of who to drive
or who to sign where ownership said this is who
(36:11):
we're going to sign or this is who we're going
to drive. Oh I didn't, no question. Those things happen.
Oh yeah, how often more often than people think. Can
you give us some examples? I don't. You got to
read the book? All right? Yes, speaking of the book,
you're you're writing a book? Are you've written a book? Um?
(36:35):
When when is just going to be released? And you've
got to give us the title because right now, I
mean you've been throwing freaking meteors and falls. Yeah. Well,
I mean I'm not going to release the title, but hopefully,
buddy and towards the end of this year, the book
will come out. Uh. And I just again, I think
people think I'm I have I'm after the Browns. I'm
not after the Browns. I'm after what happened. I'm after
(36:57):
the truth. I want people to really understand what goes
on behind these doors and these big businesses, because this
is what's been happening throughout our world. It's not just
you know, not in sports, and this really happens in
sports every day too, you know, to be oppressed and
not be able to say the truth for this long
about what was really happening. To watch my family go
(37:18):
through the same things I was going through because they've
watched it and walked through with me, I mean to me,
that's amazing. And then when you do come out, oh,
you're not supposed to say that, you're saying their own thing.
I'm just telling truth, and I do have a hard
time with people not really wanting to hear the truth.
Are you finally able to speak the truth because your
(37:38):
contract has been paid? Is that I'm trying to understand
the timeline is that's what's going on here? Absolutely? And
if you understand contract law, you know there's things that
you cannot say until you're not under contract anymore. I'm
not under contract. I now can say what I feel.
And I challenge anybody to challenge me on anything that. Well,
(38:03):
let me let me move from there real quickly here,
because there's something that that's important that you're doing. You
found it enough an organization to address um the lack
of diversity among head coaches in UH in the NFL
and and even on the lower ranks to some degree.
Tell us how that came about and and how you're
(38:23):
hoping to make an impact there. It came about because
I met a lady by name of Leslie Kirch who
was out of Columbus and who really wants to do
something to impact that space. We got together with a
lot of top business people um that be kind of
hand selected and some others, and we came together to
(38:46):
start trying to have dialogue on how to find real
time solutions for the situation that's going on with diversity
and inclusion. And I think we're making some huge progress.
We still have a ways to go, but the same time,
there's so many people that want to help in the
space because we can see that there has been a problem,
(39:08):
and especially in sports, it's it's easy to identify the
problem here. What have you found in terms of discussions
about potential solutions. I found it to be very difficult
because I think people in my opinion, UM, I think
there are people who are afraid. Some people don't want
to attack the bear, you know, because I don't think
(39:30):
you want to lose their value or they don't want
to lose their opportunity. I mean, it's just like myself.
I'm not in a situation where I'm concerned about that,
you know. And I think that people who are going
to be very good advocate to this. That's the way
they have to attack this. You can't worry about what's
gonna come back. If you're gonna make change, you gotta
make change. You get comfortable about doing it. And well,
(39:52):
I think we're getting a group of people who are
very serious and determined about moving this thing forward. Well,
the one thing I say is that Steve and I
both said this isn't the league problem, It's an ownership problem.
So are you attacking this from the standpoint of trying
to change the minds of these owners or is it
more of a structural issue that you're trying to address.
(40:14):
I think it has to start with the owner's first.
You said it, I mean, and then I think there
is a structural issue that needs to be dealt with
as well. I think the whole system needs to be
reshaped um and thought of differently in order to make change.
He let me ask you this because you've been a
part of the NFL's quarterback coaching someone you've been onto
(40:35):
advisory panels, NFL sanctioned back to whatever to help with
some of this process. Do you think you coming out
now and speaking your truth and what happened that you
might be pushed like, Okay, Hugh's he was being a
little controversial. Now we don't want him to be part
of the solution of what we're trying to do. The
last time I sat in front of the Version and
(40:56):
Inclusion Committee in Indianapolis, I probably was difficult into because
I told the truth about what I saw, not about
what my experience was, what I think the real issues were.
And I don't think a lot of people really wanted
to hear that. And that's okay, you know, I'm not
afraid to say what what the truth is. I think
a lot of people need to go back and check
themselves and start being willing to listen to what what
(41:19):
the truth is really about and not just covering. And
I think that's what's wrong with our society. Just even today,
Have you been to participate anything since then? No, sir,
and huld just be clear on this um. You say
people aren't being truthful about what the problem is. When
(41:42):
we talk about d N I as it relates to
coaching hires, what is the problem. I think we have
to go back jam and really start from the beginning
of the league. I mean, minorities were not seen as
equals when we started from players or to coaches. There
was no black players a National Republic until Kenny Washington
(42:04):
was by injunction put in the league. There was no
coaches twenty forty years now that when our shell became
a head coach. So I'm saying you go back and
look at the history. Their starting point was way different
than our starting point, and so you have to understand that.
You have to walk back through that and understand all
the bias that went on way back then so that
(42:25):
you can really talk about it now and try to
find real solutions. And people don't want to do that
because I don't think it's about those things. It's really
about money. That the league is still growing, the league
still making a tremendous amount of money, so in everybody's
eyes wide change. But if you're gonna put it out
there that this is about diversity and inclusion, then you
(42:48):
have to do something about it. In order to do that,
you need to understand the history of the league. When
it started and how it started in order to do better,
to think better, and to do better. And I don't
think people want to do that, and you I would,
I would say that it's not just the coaches for
the players. It is about the NFL period, when you
(43:09):
look at the league office, when you look at the
team front offices, um, the executives. So it's a it's
a it's funny we focus on coaches and general managers.
But this is a problem that's so systemic and it
runs so deep. And again, it's not just the NFL.
I want to be clear on that. Absolutely, this is
(43:30):
business across the country, major corporations and whatnot. But as
you say, and I've said this too, if you're not
gonna be honest about it, and if you're not gonna
look in the mirror and say, we've got a problem,
how are we going to correct it? And not just
how are we going to correct it, but we're gonna
be intentional about correcting it. I don't know that it
gets much better anytime soon. When we do it to ourselves,
(43:53):
that's even worse. That's what I'm saying. I mean, I stood.
I was a coach of the Cleveland Browns Andrew Barry
knows the reel, okay, and he is a black man.
That's what hurts. Okay, where are you at in this process?
For you forget everything else? Like you said, rather you
thought he was a good head coach. Where he's still
(44:13):
a man with a family. Where are you at in
this Oh? Well I'm mad now because she was telling
the truth that that's a problem that shouldn't be a problem.
Where are you at? So we don't pick our brothers up.
We say we do, we don't. And that's amazing to me. Well,
(44:34):
that's that's that's a strong point. And he I'm gonna
button it up on this because one of the reasons
that Jim and I, you know, once we afford the
opportunity of this podcast, because we're we're two cats who
just don't hold back. I mean, we just we want
people to come on here and speak your truth like
you came on here and spoke your truth today. And
I think it's important that people here all sides. You
talk about representation, you talk about things like this, You
(44:55):
talk about Jim as Jim just alluded to going on
to zoom meetings with management. You ain't you know managers
who look like you. You know, people who you know
come in and show strength of force. Just by looking
at the images on the on the squares on the
zoom meeting. Um that that happens across the board. So
for you to come out and to say what you
(45:17):
have to say, knowing like you say that you think
the career is over, um, I mean it takes a lot, brother,
and so you know, we we just want to thank
you for coming on and and speaking and doing what
you do. Well. Thank you. One thing I think you
both know me. I'm not afraid, you know, It's just
it's part of life. Somebody at some point in time
that's hand for the right thing. Until then, nothing's gonna change.
(45:41):
And that's why I appreciate you guys. You guys do
not hold back, and I think that we need more
of that because if we're gonna change it, and it's
going to get better because of people like you guys
who are willing to put people on the platform to
redo their truth and they can feel comfortable and being
very honest and transparent about what really goes on. I
appreciate you coming on here. Thanks so much. Appreciate you already, Steve,
(46:16):
you know what I take away from all of this
more than anything, is that we can focus on on
all of the issues that the Browns had and whatnot.
But what bothers me most I think in this process
is that a good football coach is not coaching. And
as I said during the interview, you can have philosophical
differences with you, You're gonna have personality differences with you.
But the one thing I do know in terms of
(46:37):
being a football coach and and and coaching offensive football,
the man is one of the best at what he does.
So from that standpoint, I'm disappointed that he is not
coaching someplace because he should be. And we see this
happen to coaches all the time, well but not but not.
I think this is kind of a bigger circumstance because
(46:58):
he was the face of everything that went wrong with Cleveland,
and he wasn't you know, he wasn't the only one,
uh and involved in this, and he is a damn
good coach. I first met Hugh when he was the
offensive coordinator for the Atlanta Falcons under Boby petrino Um
and he went through a lot there. So this man
has paid his dues, He's gone through a lot and
it's a shame to hear him, you know, even though
(47:19):
it's a reality probably him to say, you know, his
career is over, his coaching career is over, and him
sound so defeated in that. So um, you know, again
this was this is huge truth. What he wanted to speak,
what he wanted to say about this, Jim. And again,
well we'll see where this goes for him moving forward. Um,
but you know, he had this platform and he said
(47:41):
what he wanted to say. Yeah, definitely. So Um. Anyway,
we wish him the best and we're gonna move forward
here now. And you know, once again we we thank
everyone for listening. We thank everyone for subscribing. Continue to
leave us messages about who you want to hear from,
what you want to hear about. In that way, we
(48:03):
can continue to give you more of what you're funking for. Alright,
that's right, jam In Now for j t Our producer
Thomas Warren. We are the h U Mob on the
Huddle Flow podcast, brought to you by Into It the Probub,
makers of quick Books, Turbo Text and Mint Huddle Flull Podcast. Folks,
we are out
Coming up on Huddling Flow, there is no career, and
let's just be honest. I haven't coached in three years.
If it wasn't for Marvin Lewis, I wouldn't have been
coaching anyway after I left Oakland. So let's let's just
be very honest about what has gone on. And that's
why I do feel like it's so important to tell
the story, and not just about my career. I have kids,
(00:22):
have kids who look up to me, who walked through
this just as well, and their dad's got to sit
there and not be honest about what happened. I mean
to me, what bothers me the most? I'm telling the
truth and can can back all of this up, and
everybody sees it as a problem. The truth in this
world is now a problem. You're not so you weren't
(00:43):
able to tell the truth. That's next on Huddling Flow.
All right, everybody, welcome to the second scoop of the
(01:07):
Huddle on Flow podcast. This week, I am Steve White
with my brother Jim Trotter, two thirds of the Howard
University of Mapia, our producer Thomas Warren. On the Ones
and Dudes. He completes the puzzle again. The Huddleful podcast
brought you by into it the problem makers of QuickBooks,
Turbo Tax and Mint and Jim Today, real serious episode, right.
(01:28):
We We've got former Brown's and Raider's head coach Hugh
Jackson on here. He was getting ready to release a book. Um,
but he comes on Jim and he speaks his truth
about a lot of the behind the scenes stuff of
what happened with the Cleveland Browns. This is some heavy stuff, people,
and some of the things he hopes what he experienced
can benefit, particularly coaches of color moving forward. Yeah, you know,
(01:53):
Stevie pulls back the curtains on what it's like to
be a head coach in the NFL and to deal
with management, to deal with ownership it and a lot
of times coaches can't speak about it immediately after they're
let go because their contracts prohibit them either from saying
anything negative about an organization or their n d A
s And there, Well, Hugh was contract with the Browns expired,
(02:14):
so he's now free to speak, and that's what he's doing.
You know, he's a man who you can tell it
doesn't appreciate the perception that this was all his fault
and his fault only, and he says he accepts his
responsibility and the struggles that the Browns had, but it
runs much deeper than one man. So it's interesting to
hear his viewpoint on this. You remember, Hugh Jackson has
(02:37):
not coached since he was fired from the Cleveland Browns.
Who want to make this clearer too. We did reach
out to the Browns um after we record this interview,
UM to see if they had anything to say about
some of the things Hugh Jackson levies, and they declined
to comment on this, so we did reach out. So Jim,
(02:58):
let's get right to it. Here's Jackson. M all right,
j G. Now we are joined by our special guests,
a good friend about for a long time, Hugh Jackson. Hugh,
Welcome to the Huddle Flow Podcast. Hey, I'm excited to
be here. It's always great to see Hope you men.
(03:18):
You guys have done a great job. I appreciate you, Hugh,
you out there making news. Huh, yes, I am I finally. Uh.
You know, I've had to sit in the raptorable while
and not say anything, and UM, now that I can,
I think the story needs to be told. Why now,
(03:39):
what is it at this point that that you want
to step forward and speak about your experience in Cleveland. Well, Jim,
it goes back to just what I said. I mean,
there have been everybody created and creating the narrative of
what went on in Cleveland during my time, and I
could not say nothing found by contract in those things,
and I felt like people did. No. I've been buried,
(04:01):
I've been vilified as a bad coach, didn't know what
I was doing, just the whole nine yards, and so um,
there's only so much anybody can take. And it's not
just for me and I look at it, it's also
for the minority coaches that are coming up. I don't
I don't want to see this happen to anybody ever again.
And more so than that, I think me not coaching
(04:22):
has impacted the hiring some minority men who have been
in a situation where they have been offensive coordinators because
of what my record has been. And I don't think
that's very either. So you tell us what happened. What
is it that you want to clear up? What I
wanted to clear up is what I went to Cleveland
to do is not and what they told me we
(04:44):
were gonna do is not at all what we did.
I went there to win. You know, I think you
guys know obvious the head coach of the Raiders A
and eight believe there you you end up believing because
I dies, I have to go to Cincinnati and coach
on defense. And I just think about that eight and
eight head coach, top ten offensive team and can't get
(05:04):
a job. So then I had to go coach on
the offense. And I say that for this reason because
if I was going to take another head coaching job,
after I work, we back up off from defense, back
over the offense, coaching running backs become for football writers
offensive coach of the year. In then there were certain
things that had to be in place for me to
take another job. I just got fired after being eight
(05:26):
and eights. And the number one thing that I made
Brickler as I need to win. I needed to win.
I need to be in a situation where I could
do something special. And then I wanted to support that
I needed in order to create winning. And if you
go look at my press conference, that's exactly what I
was told I was going to get. And after being
there for about a month and a half, I started
(05:47):
realizing that this is going down the wrong road. This
is became become uh analytical process, you know at the time,
so it was analytics versus football. They were going to
prove that coaches and scouting did not know what they
were doing and that analytics could run an organization. And
I had to stand out in front of that and
(06:08):
I thought it for two straight years hard. I have
documentation where I wrote the owner several times about this
needed to stop because I knew it was going to
career kill careers, gonna Claire's coaches, everybody, and it was
gonna a sudden turn the fans on me. And that's
exactly what it did, real quickly before we get there.
(06:31):
I just wanted so and I got two here. But
first of okay, so when you were going through this process,
you because I remember this like yesterday, Now, what did
they tell you was going to be the plan? And
you said it took you know, a month and a
half point you realized, you know, you've been hoodwinked. So
what was the original conversation about what was going to
(06:54):
happen with the process of you being their head coach.
We're going to get to winning as fats as we
can We're going to give you the resources that you need.
We're going to hire a experience GM to prepare with
you in order to get this organization where it needs
to be, and whatever resour other resources we need, we're
going to supply you. Okay, So before that, because again
(07:18):
I remember this, because I remember when you took that job.
I think a lot of us were like why, because
we knew what the Browns were before we got there.
We knew how good of a coach you were, and
I know you had interviewed, I believe for the Niners
and a couple other teams. So was this a situation
where you were like, I'm not gonna get offered any
(07:39):
other head coaching jobs, so let me go to this one,
even knowing what the reputation of the Browns was. And Steve,
I appreciate you saying and I didn't know what the
reputation was, and I was going to get offered by
other I did have other opportunities. I made a decision
based on what was shared with me. I mean, again,
(07:59):
I want to make it very clear, as a minority coach,
I knew I couldn't go take a job where I
was going to have an opportunity to lose, and no
nobody would do that. Nobody would do that and kill
their own career. So obviously people were saying the things
to me that needed to be said in order for
me to feel couple intend a job. I could have
stayed and had a chance to go to New York.
(08:21):
I could have stayed in Cincinnati became the head coach there.
So it wasn't that I didn't have opportunities. I wanted
my own opportunities like anybody else would. But I did
it because I was told and promised certain things that
didn't come to fruition. Here can you give me and
and the audience an example of where football ran into analytics?
(08:42):
Um that they would understand. Okay, So when you think
about analytics the analytic processes, it's all about historical data.
It's about taking the data and comparing a player to
where they are now to potentially where they could be
in the future. What people don't understand. Someone has to
input that information. Somebody has to give it the subject matter.
(09:06):
And if you don't take that from coaches who have
the experience and wisdom of having done it, then it's
probably not going to come out very well. So what
was really happening. They was creating their own formats on
how they wanted to get this information, and they were
not using the coaches wisdom knowledge. So again, and I
(09:26):
have nothing against the player what at all, but you
take Cody Kessler, who we drafted in the third round.
His the information said he was going to be a
great player. But when you look at it through my
eyes through an experienced coach who has coach quarterbacks, I
didn't see that. I saw a really good quarterback at USC.
It was a really good college quarterback. Could he transcend
(09:48):
and get a plant quarterback in the National Football League?
I did not see that, but their data points to
that he would be. So that's where you start to
have analytics versus coaching, and analyt diggs are now telling
the coaches what is good. It's not the coaches telling
analytics what's good. You take me back to UM the
(10:09):
Miles Garrett draft. I'm particularly interested in that. With the
stories I've heard, what was that process like and how
did it play out? It was really hard. I think
everyone knows that we were needing a quarterback and we
were and Mitchell Robinski was seeing um, you know, by
the organization as the best quarterback in the draft. I
(10:32):
did not agree with that. Um. I thought Miles Garrett
was the best player period, because I think he's a
generational talent. I think everybody knew, I still want to
tell you, and fought extremely hard for Miles Garrett to
be on that football team. Whereas at the last second, Yeah,
I think the other side came around and said he
was right. But it was a lot of big from
(10:53):
back and forth because I was not going to publicly
or privately support the decision that we took Mitchell Drobiski
because I didn't think that that was I didn't think
he was the first pick of the draft quarterback. But
I want to be clear. I want to be clear.
I want to be clear the organization was prepared to
take Mitchell Drabinsky number one overall. Correct. Oh, absolutely didn't know.
(11:17):
There's no question like that. Okay, So look right now,
the Bears have been dragged for years for trading up
to take Mitchell Drabinsky and passing on to Shawn Watson
and Mahomes the Cleveland Browns look. It was almost universal.
Hugh talking to people, the Miles Garrett was the best
player in the draft MHM and the Cleveland. Now, who
(11:37):
was if you don't mind, since we're telling you who
was pushing the hardest for Mitchell Trabinsky and who did
you have to flip to get to Miles G Well,
I mean, obviously Sashi Brown was leading the charge with
Andrew Barry and Paubly the best. I mean, the same people.
That's what gets me today. The same people were talking
about other than Sashi or in paid visions and running
(12:00):
the organization today. So I just don't understand, you know.
And so obviously they were doing something right. They were
figuring out something, but I think in real time, you
were figuring out what they could do, what would work
in this process, and what would work. And that's why
we're sitting here today having this conversation. How did you
(12:21):
flip them? But that's the thing you said, flipped them.
I think I was very strong first in my not
gonna support it. I wasn't going to stand back out
there again and make the mistake I've been vilified about
saying just trusting on cotquestl right. I was not going
to stand out there. We took a court back first
overall that I didn't believe it and say I'm with
(12:43):
this all the way. Like I did with that, I
wouldn't gonna do it anymore. So I told him privately
or publicly supported if you take Mitchell Trobiscuit. Here's the
other thing he and I know you've talked about this,
excuse me elsewhere, that you were prepared to walk away
from the Browns um and they persuaded you to stay.
(13:05):
The owner Jimmy hasn't persuaded you to stay in part
by offering you an extension. Take us through that process
and what was going on and how that played out. Well,
we played the Minnesota Vikings and in in London and
came back and very honestly had a meeting. So there
was a group of players I'm not going to get
into depth of what it was that had a meeting
(13:27):
with ownership with Jimmy ind and told them how they
felt and which was again that they needed to improve
the roster, that we needed better players, that we need
to be in a better situation. I mean these players,
and like I said, I'm not going to get into names,
they knew and understood what was going on. They could
feel it. I mean, your player that's competing, you're given
(13:49):
your all you're practicing, and now you don't have an
opportunity to win. You don't want to keep continue to
put your body out there on the line like that.
So now here we go. In that same week, you know,
which is right around October, I saw her the contract extension.
What people have to understand is I was in the
room with my agent and my wife at the time.
(14:11):
So this is not b asked. I mean I laughed
the way people think, well, there's no way that's gonna happen.
Jimmy d was there. Jimmy apologized to me and her
about what he had put us through and what we
have been going through. So here's the contract extension. Okay.
And at the time, I'm gonna one and twenty three coach,
and I told him I would accept it if there
(14:32):
was three things that would happen. If he made it public,
because then it would take it off of me. It
would take what had been going on with me and
all of a sudden clear that up, because then the
fans would say, wait a minute, this, this hasn't been
right for him. And if he would come out and
it's and tell people exactly what had been going on
(14:53):
up to that point, and the third thing was to
go get us better players. That's exactly what I asked.
None of those things were done. So way number one
was taken off to come out publicly, come out publicly
about the contract extension and what was to come back
out and clear my name about that. I did not
(15:13):
know about this process exactly what was going to happen,
that there was going to be a tear down of
the football team. I was never told that. As I
say to you, man, what coach would take a team
in his second opportunity of becoming a head coach, especially
a minority coach, and go be the lead of a
tear down. I mean, I was a coordinator and I'm
(15:34):
making great money. I don't it wasn't about money. It
was about winning, which is this to win? We don't
do this to lose, you know. And so it's just
so amazing that people can't connect the dots. Nobody wants
to really dig in and try to connect the dots.
But that's what I asked, and that I said, we
needed to get better players on this team. And what
(15:54):
happened after that obtually saw she was let go in
King John Dorsey and there did become a more influx
of players into the organization. So what happened from that point?
Why did it not improve? It didn't the rest of
the year where you can't make any changes or trades.
You know, we're past the midwaiting to see that, you know.
(16:16):
And so again go look at the roster we had.
We had three run backs that that never won a game.
But I'm supposed to fashion a way and fix away
to have them win, which we the staff, the players,
And I'm not putting down any players, even when I
talk about Cody Kester, I'm not. They're all great people.
But winning in the National Football League it takes a
(16:38):
certain type of player in order for you to win players,
I should say, and I think we all know that,
and that's what we were missing, Hugh, when when we
talk about analytics a lot of time, look, analytics are
party NFL, usually for situational football and things like that.
To the team to apply it. You know, of course
it's a player acquisition, but it sounds here the way
if you could just explain right for people who made
(17:00):
out no, because I will, I would lay it out
in the simple terms, and you take you may have
a receiver in college who's averaging nine yards a catch,
and he's super fast and everything else, so everyone thinks
this is a game breaker when those yartists told us
could simply be because he ran nothing but go routes. Right,
He's not a case to catch and run guy. He's
not a great route running guy. And that's where football
coaching comes in. If you could explain how, at least
(17:22):
in terms of player acquisition, analytics is used and the
difference between how football coaches view it and how the
analytical people view it, because I think that's something that
just it gets thrown together in a pot, especially when
us in the media are talking about it, and folks
may not understand why football people get driven crazy sometimes
about the analytical term and how it's used. Absolutely because
(17:46):
you think of analytics, it is all driven by numbers.
There's a numbers and it's about the computer. It's what
the computer tells you. But what people don't understand someone
has to input that innation into the computer. What is
or what are the data sets that you're using. What
are you using to make the decisions about what type
of player this is if you're not using a coach's
(18:08):
wisdom about his his vision and his profile of a player,
it's gonna tip different. So if the coaches are leading
the analytics, you have a better chance of having it
worked up an overlap together. When analytics is the total
lead and that's all you do, it's never gonna work
(18:29):
with coaches because coaches were experienced. We're our own algorithms
for our own thought process because we do it over time.
We understand the heighth weight, speed, the determination to grit,
all the other non essential things that people think are
when you think of the analytics, because they can't measure
hard they can't measure determination, they can't measure hard work.
(18:51):
So those things are so important to have any real
good football player. And that's what analytics can't tell you.
It can't. It can't. Did you any information on those things?
So An, let's talk about player acquisition and things like this.
You know, I was in that building an awful lot
when you're coaching there. M hmm. There was some divisiveness
(19:11):
on that coaching staff too that that did not seem
like the most united coaching staff. Did you put that together?
I mean, analytics had nothing to do with that, did it.
Now you're talking about at the end because the coaching
staff right toward toward towards, towards the end, towards the end. Well, absolutely,
we had two coaches that came from different organizations, and
one was a bad mess. I mean there's no question
(19:31):
about that. I mean that, I've said it several times.
I can go and change anything. I never would have
hired Tied Haley on our football team. I mean that
was a bad, bad decision here. What what's the conflict
between the two of you, you and time? Why did
it not work? I think Todd one of my job,
Let's just be honest. It was playing simple. He came
(19:55):
there and he's seen a one and thirty one coach,
did not know exactly what the process had been and
what had happened there. I think he made a decision
I'm all in and trying to unseek this guy. Let's
just not that's what it was. Period. How did you
realize that very quickly, very quickly in training camp? And
don't think that I didn't make that, No, I don't
(20:16):
think that we had had conversations about all the insubordination
that went on in order to move on back and
so that never happened, either conversations with ownership or conversations
with conversations with Todd, conversations with ownership, conversations with John Dorset.
All this document m so so hugh. So when we
(20:37):
saw that, when when the when the public saw that
clip on Hard Knocks, you know, when when Freddie Kitchens
and Todd spoke up, how far down the line were
you in terms of that fracture? It was It was
really the beginning of the fracture. But you can see it,
and you can see it till because what had happened
was I mean, there's no coaching that's I'm going to
(20:58):
training camp and not cover when players are gonna not
be practicing. This wasn't the same on that day. That's
why you come back earlier. You have all these meetings,
you know, and we had two years of data that
says if these particular players don't practice every day, they
don't get pull muscles. So the staff knew that way
(21:18):
before that conversation never happened. Now maybe they take notes,
they didn't understand it, but it's just really interesting when
you think about it. The guys that asked the question,
what my guys who had been on the staff from
about two new coaches, so they knew exactly what was
going on. It was a new him, so that I
was very surprised on how that happened. But at the
end of the day, I still get surprised when people
(21:39):
get mad because you say, this is my bus and
I'm gonna I wasn't a head coach. I'm not saying
anything wrong. I mean that's the way sometimes. And if
people knew the conversations that go on when the cameras
are not there, they at some of the conversations that
happened in coaches meeting worlds. So we we took that
and made it so big and I just laughed. But
(22:01):
they made it big because I was a coach that
had been losing. The coach that's losing shouldn't say anything
that's a joke. Hugh, When did you realize that that
your job was in jeopardy? Honestly, Jim, I knew my
job was in jeopardy after the first year. I mean
I came to win. I didn't come to lose. You can't, well, no, no,
(22:22):
I you know, I can stand in front of a
team and think that it's gonna be okay and think
you're gonna make it. No, I get that I'm saying, though,
after the Peers, they have made some of the changes
that you wanted in terms of now you got a
football man in with Dorsey, You've got the number one
pick in the draft. They go out and draft Baker Mayfield. Um,
(22:43):
so I'm assuming you believe that you're on the right
track now. Oh yes, Oh, I see you're saying, yeah, Jim,
I thought after the contract extension, things were gonna be good.
You know, we were going to make the changes that
we needed, We're going to get better football players, and
that we would be trending in the right direction. Every
said we were. Now there were some other issues, you know,
within like you said, the staff, and we just talked
(23:05):
about those a little briefly. But we were playing better,
we were competing better. We had been in four overtime games.
We had won two games, and and there's three or
three of the others we should have won. So I
was feeling better. So I don't know that I ever
thought that my job was in jeopardy. And then we
went and played Tampa Bay and I made a statement
(23:27):
after the game that I wanted to help on the
offensive side of the ball because I didn't see him
movement that I was looking for and I wanted to
really dive in and help. And then then to me
that was a problem again, you know, as the head
coach and the guy who was an offensive coach, I'm
not supposed to say anything. Who says you're not supposed
to say? Well, the media whatever me. They said, Hey,
you know, boy, Todd is such a great coordinator, he's
(23:50):
the the coordinator. He should just stay off of that.
He needed to be involved in the offense at all. Um,
that's not his thing. I'm the head coach. So what
were the conversation like when you find out when they
released you? Well, I mean, I'm gonna go on record
send this because I need to, because it's the truth.
I was shocked because Jimmy told me on that Wednesday
(24:12):
before we played Pittsburgh that we were moving on. He
told me clear He came in the office and told
me clearly, said Hugh, he says, I am regardless of
the outcome of the game, We're gonna move on from Todd. Period.
I've never been more excited in my life. And I did.
I talked to two coaches on my staff and told them,
(24:32):
so I'm this again. People can go check this all
they want. I felt. I felt relieved, Hey, we're gonna
have a chance to move forward. Here me get this
offense together. I thought we had a really good team,
and I thought we had a chance. And sure enough,
we're gonna play Pitchburgh. We lose. After the game, I
started feeling first, there was a feeling of feeling good
(24:53):
when I drove into the building because I'm saying Todd
is going to be gone, because I thought that was
what was holding us back. I really did. And then
all of a sudden that morning, I can't find anybody.
I can't find Peter, John Baptiste, I can't find Jimmy,
I can't find anybody. We have a staff meeting. I
go back in my office and then walks John Dorsey
and Jameson and that's when they proceeded to tell me
(25:18):
that they were moving in the direction. But I got
piste off because I'm listening to John Dorsey tell me
I lost the team. You gotta be kidding me. Lost
the team and we're playing four overtime games and competing
like we were competing. No, I have a coach that
is creating an issue on offense that I need to
get rid of. And move forward and get this offense
so where it needs to be so we can play
commentary football. Why do you think they that Jimmy has
(25:41):
the flaps? I have no idea. I have no idea.
And again when you look at it, because what he
told me in the meeting, he was losing, and I
was very clear with him. Jimmy the losing, I mean
he was forced losing for two years that I stood
in front of for the organization and took it. So
now when we have a chance, we have better players,
now you're gonna tell me it's time to go. That
(26:04):
made no sense to me. Ugh, here's here's And it's interesting,
you know, hearing you tell all this and spill all
this so clearly the acrimony with Todd Haley, and then
you have the situation. I can't remember it was later
that season and next season, you guys, you're you're back
with Cincinnati. Baker Mayfield doesn't shake your hand and says
(26:25):
some things, and you said you were surprised by that
because you thought you were cool with Baker. Do you
think the stuff with with you know that was that
was Todd Haley who would maybe poisoned Baker against you.
Or do you think you know why was that? Because
I remember your initial comments like I, hey, I thought,
I mean Baker were good. I don't. I don't know
where that's coming from. I'd be at first to tell you, See,
I don't have the answer to that. I don't know if, if,
(26:47):
what happened or how it happened, but I wouldn't be
surprised if if some of all those things are involved
in it, because at the end of the day, I
did not see anything like that with Baker. I mean
I was the one to help draft Baker number one overall.
I didn't coach Baker. I wasn't Baker's play caller. I did.
I spent in time with Baker, not a lot. It's
only one time I brought him in after the first
(27:10):
game of the year and sat down to watch football
with him. Other than that, that was really it because
he had a new quarterback coach obviously coaches MPs was
there and then Todd Hayley was was a coordinator. So
I had to let to me my presence I felt
would have overshadowed everything if I just stayed over there
and started coaching. I needed to let them be the
best version of them. That was me delegating authority. And
(27:32):
so when I look up now this guy is acting
like this with me, I was a little surprised. Here.
Let me, I'm curious as to your concern, if any,
about coming forward now and what it could do for
your career. There is no career, and let's just be honest.
I haven't coached in three years. If it wasn't for
(27:53):
Marvin Lewis, I wouldn't have been coaching anyway after I
left Oakland. So let's let's just be very honest about
what has gone on. And that's why I don't feel
like it's so important to tell the story, and not
just about my career. I have kids, have kids who
look up to me who walked through this just as well,
and their dad's got to sit there and not be
honest about what happened. I mean, to me, what bothers
(28:15):
me the most? I'm telling the truth and can can
back all of this up, and everybody sees it as
a problem. The truth in this world is now a problem.
You're not so you weren't able to tell the truth. No,
no college opportunities either, or do you want to bother college? Oh?
I would go to college in a heartbeat. But I
haven't had a chance that really anything. To be honest
(28:36):
with you, I mean, and I understand why people think
I was at one and thirty one coach there are
the one who and I was a part of it.
I take my responsibility in it. But at the same time,
to say it's just me, I just to me, that's
not right. Let me let me ask you this. You
with you're saying you don't want other minority coaches to
walk into situations blindly and get looked upside the head.
(28:59):
Jim and I. You know, we had David kully on
from who who took took the Houston Texans head coaching job. Um,
we all have heard, we all have known, We've talked
to people about the dysfunction going on down there. David
Culley was the only black head coach to get hired
this hiring cycle. And I'm just using him as an
example because we wish him. He's a wonderful man and
we wish him the best. But it seems again that
(29:22):
a black head coach is getting is getting a situation.
The only situation offered him is one where he's a
placeholder for the next guy. Because he's gonna be going
through a tear down like how you went through when
you see a situation like this. And again I'm just
using him as an example. Is this another reason why
I mean, again, maybe it's not him, but you're you're
(29:42):
coming out and speaking like guys. Not every job is
a good job. Something that Jim has has said since
we started this podcast and before then. Is this kind
of the warning shot you want to fire so future
people don't walk into situations where they've got a sog
getting ready to split them in the head. And you
better truly understand your contract. I mean, I know agents
(30:05):
are responsible, but you better make sure you truly understand
your contract and what you're hired to do and what
decisions you're gonna be able to make. But you said it,
I don't want guys ever through this because it's painful.
And if you're put in a situation where you can't,
I mean, everybody say just leave right where you're gonna go.
(30:26):
I mean, you have nowhere to go, you know, so
you have to either stay and fight it and try
to get it right or did the people who hired
you did they they do old bait and switch At
the last second, and now you're in a tough spot,
you know, so I think you guys got to really
make sure that they dig in and understand and ask
those deep digging questions before you take any times. But
(30:49):
have your eyes and ears open to everything. But but
is it really just a matter of asking or is
it a matter of potentially having to get things in writing? Oh?
You in terms of I mean you have to get
them in right. There is no h If it is
not writing, it's not gonna happen. I don't care what
it is. It better all being right, you know. You
(31:11):
you talked about Andrew Berryan and de Podesta and some
of the guys who were there with the analytics guys
there there. Now, yeah, team went to the team went
to the play that too much of the playoffs this year.
Well they gotta they have a really good absolutely, But
that's that's the two years of understanding what was needs
to make the process work. And now I think they're
doing it through the through the coaches lens and not
(31:33):
through the analytical lens. Look, it could have worked when
I was there, There's no question. But you have to
work together. You can't have different plans. But the coach has,
so I think they're working together. Look, I'm glad that
things are going great for the Cleveland Browns. I want
to see them do well. I have no hard feelings
towards the team and them doing well. My art feelings
(31:54):
are is the two guys who are running it was
there in the one and thirty one and a part
of all of this. And so either they're saying they
did something right in order to still be there and
being paid for what they did. Are you kidding me?
That shouldn't be that way. So if that's the case,
it was turn down and they lost, and I should
be reverend too for doing exactly what they wanted to
(32:16):
have happened, which was to lose. You have you heard
from anyone there, particularly since you have come out and
started speaking. I'm not going to hear from anybody from there.
It's just so funny. So I'm in a contract yesterday. Hey,
here's my challenge to anybody. Well, tell them that they
didn't give me a contract. Let's let's go. I mean,
(32:37):
I'm tired of people saying huge line about everything. So
let's if that is the case, tell them, let's not
do to no comment, Say no, we didn't give you
one and then I prove them wrong. I'm not gonna
come on. I'm not gonna come on here in that conversation,
especially with two men I respect and anybody else I've
had conversations with if I am not being forthcoming and truthful,
(32:58):
and I have all the documentation to back it all up.
I have always said in no comment as a confirmation
if if it's a lie or it's wrong, and it's
easily provable, and improve it, and if you choose not to,
then you're confirming it. So and look, Hugh, Jim and
I have known you for years, man, We've had some
(33:18):
some really great conversations. And so my thing is this,
if you're saying there there is no career for you
in coaching, what do you know? What what are your
what are your plans? And what is it something that
you would like? Can I say this before Hugh answers
that that bothers me to no end? From this? You can?
You cannot like you personally, and I get their personality
(33:41):
conflicts all throughout the league, but no one can say
that Hugh Jackson doesn't know football and it's not a
good football coach. You can't say it and be taken seriously.
Now you can debate whether you feel he's a good
head coach or not. I'm not speaking to that, but
in terms of football, you can't tell me Hugh jack
and doesn't know football, and for him not to be
(34:01):
in the league or coaching someplace to me is wrong.
And that's just my personal opinion. So I'm sorry I interrupted. No,
I'm glad you did know Here here you can go
out ahead and address it. No, I appreciate you guys
saying that. My My biggest concern is people don't like
when people put the truth out there. And I'm just
(34:22):
being honest. I mean, people have moved on and they
don't want to deal with this. But I am supposed
to sit in the corner and just taet. The other
assistant coaches that I have, they're just supposed to take it.
The players that played for me, they're supposed to take
They're all wearing this one in thirty one, and I
think that's fair. If we have to wear it, then
everybody should wear and then everybody should be very transparent
(34:43):
about what happened to take it off of everybody so
we can't move forward. I have coaches that are said
that home that have nothing to do, and they are
very good coach, and they're all the families that I
brought to the Cleveland Browns and put those people in
situations to fail. That's not right and that hurts me
more than anything. How involved his ownership in terms of
(35:06):
the either the day to day or the seasonal running
of a team with the hassums, How involved are they?
I mean some people, there are some organizations I've been
in that are not. There's some organizations I didn't where
the owner is is very hands on and wants to
know all there. When I was there, he wanted to
know all And I get it. And not only no,
(35:28):
but I mean how much did he put his fingerprints
on determining what was done and what wasn't done? Well,
I mean they never determine what was done offensively or
defensively or specified. But they would be comments about players,
certain players and things that people want to see. And
I get that, but I just think, you gotta you
hire people to do those shots. Let them do those shops.
(35:50):
Give them the opportunity because they have the expertise to
do it. Let them do it. But I get it.
The owners, they it's their team. They can do whatever
they want and they see it through their eyes. I'm curious,
and I'll leave it on this just was there a
point in terms of personnel decisions of who to drive
or who to sign where ownership said this is who
(36:11):
we're going to sign or this is who we're going
to drive. Oh I didn't, no question. Those things happen.
Oh yeah, how often more often than people think. Can
you give us some examples? I don't. You got to
read the book? All right? Yes, speaking of the book,
you're you're writing a book? Are you've written a book? Um?
(36:35):
When when is just going to be released? And you've
got to give us the title because right now, I
mean you've been throwing freaking meteors and falls. Yeah. Well,
I mean I'm not going to release the title, but hopefully,
buddy and towards the end of this year, the book
will come out. Uh. And I just again, I think
people think I'm I have I'm after the Browns. I'm
not after the Browns. I'm after what happened. I'm after
(36:57):
the truth. I want people to really understand what goes
on behind these doors and these big businesses, because this
is what's been happening throughout our world. It's not just
you know, not in sports, and this really happens in
sports every day too, you know, to be oppressed and
not be able to say the truth for this long
about what was really happening. To watch my family go
(37:18):
through the same things I was going through because they've
watched it and walked through with me, I mean to me,
that's amazing. And then when you do come out, oh,
you're not supposed to say that, you're saying their own thing.
I'm just telling truth, and I do have a hard
time with people not really wanting to hear the truth.
Are you finally able to speak the truth because your
(37:38):
contract has been paid? Is that I'm trying to understand
the timeline is that's what's going on here? Absolutely? And
if you understand contract law, you know there's things that
you cannot say until you're not under contract anymore. I'm
not under contract. I now can say what I feel.
And I challenge anybody to challenge me on anything that. Well,
(38:03):
let me let me move from there real quickly here,
because there's something that that's important that you're doing. You
found it enough an organization to address um the lack
of diversity among head coaches in UH in the NFL
and and even on the lower ranks to some degree.
Tell us how that came about and and how you're
(38:23):
hoping to make an impact there. It came about because
I met a lady by name of Leslie Kirch who
was out of Columbus and who really wants to do
something to impact that space. We got together with a
lot of top business people um that be kind of
hand selected and some others, and we came together to
(38:46):
start trying to have dialogue on how to find real
time solutions for the situation that's going on with diversity
and inclusion. And I think we're making some huge progress.
We still have a ways to go, but the same time,
there's so many people that want to help in the
space because we can see that there has been a problem,
(39:08):
and especially in sports, it's it's easy to identify the
problem here. What have you found in terms of discussions
about potential solutions. I found it to be very difficult
because I think people in my opinion, UM, I think
there are people who are afraid. Some people don't want
to attack the bear, you know, because I don't think
(39:30):
you want to lose their value or they don't want
to lose their opportunity. I mean, it's just like myself.
I'm not in a situation where I'm concerned about that,
you know. And I think that people who are going
to be very good advocate to this. That's the way
they have to attack this. You can't worry about what's
gonna come back. If you're gonna make change, you gotta
make change. You get comfortable about doing it. And well,
(39:52):
I think we're getting a group of people who are
very serious and determined about moving this thing forward. Well,
the one thing I say is that Steve and I
both said this isn't the league problem, It's an ownership problem.
So are you attacking this from the standpoint of trying
to change the minds of these owners or is it
more of a structural issue that you're trying to address.
(40:14):
I think it has to start with the owner's first.
You said it, I mean, and then I think there
is a structural issue that needs to be dealt with
as well. I think the whole system needs to be
reshaped um and thought of differently in order to make change.
He let me ask you this because you've been a
part of the NFL's quarterback coaching someone you've been onto
(40:35):
advisory panels, NFL sanctioned back to whatever to help with
some of this process. Do you think you coming out
now and speaking your truth and what happened that you
might be pushed like, Okay, Hugh's he was being a
little controversial. Now we don't want him to be part
of the solution of what we're trying to do. The
last time I sat in front of the Version and
(40:56):
Inclusion Committee in Indianapolis, I probably was difficult into because
I told the truth about what I saw, not about
what my experience was, what I think the real issues were.
And I don't think a lot of people really wanted
to hear that. And that's okay, you know, I'm not
afraid to say what what the truth is. I think
a lot of people need to go back and check
themselves and start being willing to listen to what what
(41:19):
the truth is really about and not just covering. And
I think that's what's wrong with our society. Just even today,
Have you been to participate anything since then? No, sir,
and huld just be clear on this um. You say
people aren't being truthful about what the problem is. When
(41:42):
we talk about d N I as it relates to
coaching hires, what is the problem. I think we have
to go back jam and really start from the beginning
of the league. I mean, minorities were not seen as
equals when we started from players or to coaches. There
was no black players a National Republic until Kenny Washington
(42:04):
was by injunction put in the league. There was no
coaches twenty forty years now that when our shell became
a head coach. So I'm saying you go back and
look at the history. Their starting point was way different
than our starting point, and so you have to understand that.
You have to walk back through that and understand all
the bias that went on way back then so that
(42:25):
you can really talk about it now and try to
find real solutions. And people don't want to do that
because I don't think it's about those things. It's really
about money. That the league is still growing, the league
still making a tremendous amount of money, so in everybody's
eyes wide change. But if you're gonna put it out
there that this is about diversity and inclusion, then you
(42:48):
have to do something about it. In order to do that,
you need to understand the history of the league. When
it started and how it started in order to do better,
to think better, and to do better. And I don't
think people want to do that, and you I would,
I would say that it's not just the coaches for
the players. It is about the NFL period, when you
(43:09):
look at the league office, when you look at the
team front offices, um, the executives. So it's a it's
a it's funny we focus on coaches and general managers.
But this is a problem that's so systemic and it
runs so deep. And again, it's not just the NFL.
I want to be clear on that. Absolutely, this is
(43:30):
business across the country, major corporations and whatnot. But as
you say, and I've said this too, if you're not
gonna be honest about it, and if you're not gonna
look in the mirror and say, we've got a problem,
how are we going to correct it? And not just
how are we going to correct it, but we're gonna
be intentional about correcting it. I don't know that it
gets much better anytime soon. When we do it to ourselves,
(43:53):
that's even worse. That's what I'm saying. I mean, I stood.
I was a coach of the Cleveland Browns Andrew Barry
knows the reel, okay, and he is a black man.
That's what hurts. Okay, where are you at in this process?
For you forget everything else? Like you said, rather you
thought he was a good head coach. Where he's still
(44:13):
a man with a family. Where are you at in
this Oh? Well I'm mad now because she was telling
the truth that that's a problem that shouldn't be a problem.
Where are you at? So we don't pick our brothers up.
We say we do, we don't. And that's amazing to me. Well,
(44:34):
that's that's that's a strong point. And he I'm gonna
button it up on this because one of the reasons
that Jim and I, you know, once we afford the
opportunity of this podcast, because we're we're two cats who
just don't hold back. I mean, we just we want
people to come on here and speak your truth like
you came on here and spoke your truth today. And
I think it's important that people here all sides. You
talk about representation, you talk about things like this, You
(44:55):
talk about Jim as Jim just alluded to going on
to zoom meetings with management. You ain't you know managers
who look like you. You know, people who you know
come in and show strength of force. Just by looking
at the images on the on the squares on the
zoom meeting. Um that that happens across the board. So
for you to come out and to say what you
(45:17):
have to say, knowing like you say that you think
the career is over, um, I mean it takes a lot, brother,
and so you know, we we just want to thank
you for coming on and and speaking and doing what
you do. Well. Thank you. One thing I think you
both know me. I'm not afraid, you know, It's just
it's part of life. Somebody at some point in time
that's hand for the right thing. Until then, nothing's gonna change.
(45:41):
And that's why I appreciate you guys. You guys do
not hold back, and I think that we need more
of that because if we're gonna change it, and it's
going to get better because of people like you guys
who are willing to put people on the platform to
redo their truth and they can feel comfortable and being
very honest and transparent about what really goes on. I
appreciate you coming on here. Thanks so much. Appreciate you already, Steve,
(46:16):
you know what I take away from all of this
more than anything, is that we can focus on on
all of the issues that the Browns had and whatnot.
But what bothers me most I think in this process
is that a good football coach is not coaching. And
as I said during the interview, you can have philosophical
differences with you, You're gonna have personality differences with you.
But the one thing I do know in terms of
(46:37):
being a football coach and and and coaching offensive football,
the man is one of the best at what he does.
So from that standpoint, I'm disappointed that he is not
coaching someplace because he should be. And we see this
happen to coaches all the time, well but not but not.
I think this is kind of a bigger circumstance because
(46:58):
he was the face of everything that went wrong with Cleveland,
and he wasn't you know, he wasn't the only one,
uh and involved in this, and he is a damn
good coach. I first met Hugh when he was the
offensive coordinator for the Atlanta Falcons under Boby petrino Um
and he went through a lot there. So this man
has paid his dues, He's gone through a lot and
it's a shame to hear him, you know, even though
(47:19):
it's a reality probably him to say, you know, his
career is over, his coaching career is over, and him
sound so defeated in that. So um, you know, again
this was this is huge truth. What he wanted to speak,
what he wanted to say about this, Jim. And again,
well we'll see where this goes for him moving forward. Um,
but you know, he had this platform and he said
(47:41):
what he wanted to say. Yeah, definitely. So Um. Anyway,
we wish him the best and we're gonna move forward
here now. And you know, once again we we thank
everyone for listening. We thank everyone for subscribing. Continue to
leave us messages about who you want to hear from,
what you want to hear about. In that way, we
(48:03):
can continue to give you more of what you're funking for. Alright,
that's right, jam In Now for j t Our producer
Thomas Warren. We are the h U Mob on the
Huddle Flow podcast, brought to you by Into It the Probub,
makers of quick Books, Turbo Text and Mint Huddle Flull Podcast. Folks,
we are out
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