April 6, 2021 • 58 mins
The Hall of Fame QB joins Steve and Jim to talk about all things quarterbacking in the NFL. Warren tells you why he believes Russell Wilson and the Seahawks are headed for a divorce (17:04) and why Deshaun Watson and the Texans need couples therapy (22:37). Warren talks about the gift and the curse of being the only Black QB in the NFL (26:27) and how he thinks race still factors into how the position is perceived (31:12). He threw one of the prettiest spirals ever seen, and Warren reveals how a fingernail file was the secret to his success (43:53). Plus, Steve and Jim explain why Huddle & Flow is taking a hiatus after this episode and when you can expect new episodes (54:59).
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Coming up on Huddling Flow. You are a kidding No,
you're kidding far I went with this thing and and
asked Johnny rattled that story one day, He'll tell you.
Do you try to break your finger? He called. I
called the time out on a drive. We're going down
against Miami and we were we were coming from behind,
(00:23):
and I called time out, and everybody's panicking, what's wrong?
What's wrong? What's going on? Going coming over here? And
I walked over to the trainer and said, go get
that figernail foul for me. And I found the figuernail
down and ended up throwing the winning touchdown past the
quadria issuel to win the football game. That's next on
Huddling Flow. And we are back on the Huddle Flow podcast,
(01:01):
brought to you by Into It, the Problem Makers of
Turbo Tax Quick Books and Meant. I am Steve White,
my brother Jim Trot are two thirds of the Howard
University Mafia producer Thomas Warren on the one two is
completes the puzzle. Jim, we're about three weeks out from
the NFL draft. Let's percolated a little bit, right, you know,
and now we're getting all of the hearsay all, well,
(01:22):
not just now, but we're getting it all. But I
just find it interesting case today we know we're gonna
have Warren Moon on our special guest, you know, and
it does do like the first four picks now are
going to be quarterbacks. Just looking at that element of it,
the evaluation of those guys, and then some of the
guys who could be greatest greatly impacted guys, you know,
like Sam Donald. You know, it looks like two and
(01:44):
Jalen Hurts are gonna be fine now because their team
is traded back and clearly showing faith in them. But
when you look at what's coming down the pike jam,
especially if we're having Warren Moon on all this conversation
about quarterbacks and your team, especially the forty nine is
the team you grew up. The draft really seems to
start with that, Uh, no question. Um, it's you know, Steve,
(02:04):
this is like my favorite time of year and the
time of year I hate most. From this standpoint. I
love the fact that many of these young players are
going to realize their dream of playing in the NFL
being drafted by an NFL club, but also hate the
fact that we in the media creates stories that aren't stories.
We have teams that tell us during this draft season
what that they lie to us to benefit themselves. They're
(02:28):
open about that they lie to us, and yet we
in the media will take what they say and use
it anonymously, give them the blanket of anonymity to say
things about players to drive down a player's value in
hopes that they possibly have a chance that that player
in the draft, which I understand. But the thing that
bothers me about it is that they seem to forget
(02:49):
that when they do this, sometimes they're impacting and speaking
on the character of these young men. And the example
this week, as you know, is justin Fields and everything
now that we're starting to hear anonymously about him to
try and maybe push him down the draft board so
that another team has an opportunity to draft him. And
(03:09):
it just does not sit well with me, knowing the
history of this league and the narrative about black quarterbacks
in the NFL, such as last one in, first one out,
can't get off the first to read this. It's just
it's it's interesting though, because some teams, I mean, their
scheme is it's first read or improvised, right, you know,
(03:30):
they'll tell you their second and third read, but we
know certain schemes are shown. Look, even even the guy
Justin Herbert had to eat some of that, you remember
with three. But when it comes to the black quarterback,
it is so consistent, I mean year on Yeah, you know,
the guys just not into his books. That mug he's
And it's just like when like the next time we
(03:51):
hear that about a white quarterback, like he's he's just
I mean, honestly the only quarterback, only white quarterback. I've
heard that about that that comes to short memories Johnny Manzel.
And that's just because I said, Kevin Somelin didn't do
a big playbook. He did a week to week you know,
iPad game plan. And that's how Johnny Mantel learned. It
(04:11):
wasn't even so much yet he was just out there
doing it. And and that's that they gave him. You
know that the kit as an excuse in terms of
that instead of oh yeah, he's he doesn't work that hard,
or he's he's this or that. And you know when
the stuff about Justin Fields coming out, Jim, you know,
I know we've do it for a long time. It's
it's where teams to try to move off of him.
(04:35):
And you know, it just sucks that we know this,
we don't repeat this, we don't, we don't you and
I don't say this no, And that's what bothers me. Look,
I think we would all agree that Alex Smith is
one of the brighter quarterbacks in the NFL. Well, I
remember back in San Francisco when Nord Turner was there
as the offensive coordinator, they cut the field in half
for him to try and have success, and they told
(04:57):
him he only had to read half the field. Didn't
hear anybody saying that Alex Smith was dumb or couldn't
process or go through progressions back then when that happened.
It was something that the forty Niners did at that
time to try and help a young players succeed before
expanding on the foundation that they were laying for him.
The thing about the Justin Field situation that really bothers me,
(05:17):
and I'll mention his name, Dan Orlovsky of ESPN, who
first had to deal with this, is that Dan had
already done a segment identifying how Justin fields went through reads,
went through progressions and made the place that needed to
be made and then he went on a show with
Pat McAfee and says, this is what I'm hearing from
(05:38):
clubs that Justin doesn't do this or he's this, And
I'm saying, wait a minute, you've already gone on air
and given your opinion based on your research about just
what this kid does, and now you're going to give
the blanket of anonymity to teams or personnel people who
potentially want Justin Fields to fall down the the draft
(06:00):
so that they haven't shot at him. And in the meantime,
what you were doing is attacking the character of this
young man. And look, it's a black man. There are
two things that that are so offensive and the two
two of the worst things you can say about a
black man is that he's lazy and that he's done.
And in essence, that's what you're giving these anonymous people,
(06:20):
personnel people the right to say about Justin Fields, even
though you know it not to be true. And that's
where I say, this isn't even about the personnel people.
To me, this is about the media representatives who are
putting this out there knowing that it's not true. So
that's my issue. And lastly, look, let's do this. Our
our guest today on the show is Warren Moon. Were
(06:42):
recently I asked Warren Moon for a piece that I
wrote whether or not we have moved past race being
a factor in the evaluation of the quarterback position. Let
me read this quote to you before we get to Warren,
and he said, we've reached a point with the masses
where race isn't as big an issue. But there are
people who are very uncomfortable with the fact that their
(07:03):
quarterback is African American and making all this money and
being endorsed the way they're being endorsed. There's always going
to be that certain percentage of our population that feels
that way because there's a large percentage of our population
that's racist and they don't want to see African Americans
in that position anyway. But for the most part, people
(07:24):
have accepted it. Well, I'll tell you this, Maybe people
have accepted it, but one thing I will never accept
is giving these personnel people the blanket of anonymity to
attack a young man's character. And so with that, Steve,
you know what, I think we just ought to get
right in the Warren Moon and let's hear what he
has to say on this topic and others. Yeah, we're
(07:52):
now joined by someone we know well, good friend of ours,
Hall of famer Warren Moon. Warren, how is everything going
with you? Man? I'm doing great, guys. How you guys
are doing. I've heard great things about your podcast, and
I'm honored to be able to get guest on there. Finally, well,
I just want to say people at home don't know
(08:13):
that we've had some technical issues. So I have to
praise Warren for his poise and his patients waiting on
me to get it right. So that's all the something
I learned a long time ago trying to play quarterback.
I gotta have patience, and it helped me today in
this process. Warren was like, I keep telling receiver to
(08:35):
make his break at twelve yards and he keeps on
breaking it off at nine. I'm sailing over his head.
You know, I'm just get it right. Some guys just
can't be taught, man. You know, this whole dog here
can't be taught to these new tricks. So anyway, I
appreciate your patience on a Warren no problem, guys. Tell
us what's going on with you? Yeah? Exactly? Wow, I
(08:57):
mean right now, I'm kind of visiting some family I had.
I have seven grand kids now, believe it or not.
So down in Houston over the weekend, one of my
grandsons just turned three years old. We had a huge
family uh birthday party for him, and then I came
on down to Memphis since I was down this side
of the country, to visit some more family in Memphis
(09:19):
because I haven't been able to really move around and
visit everybody because the pandemic. So I'm in Memphis right
now and then heading back to Seattle this week. But
I've been staying pretty busy doing a lot of a
lot of zoom type things. Um, you can't really do
any appearances anymore, so a lot of people do things
by zoom. I'm doing a lot of podcasts like your shows,
(09:41):
a lot of interviews on all this good quarterback stuff
that's going on in in our in our league, because
that seems to be the hot button um position of
everybody right now, that you've got to have a quarterback.
If you don't have a quarterback, then what are you
gonna do? So everything is about the quarterback in football
right now. And football is not a season sport anymore.
(10:03):
It's a year round sport that you talk about. I mean,
everybody's talking about free agency now, the draft is coming up.
Before you know it, it'll be O t s and
then you're back in training camp and we're back in
the season again. So that keeps me very very busy.
I'm not doing the broadcast anymore for the Seahawks, but
I'm thinking of maybe working for some other outlets here
(10:23):
this upcoming season. So you know, I still I have
my foundation. We're very very active. I have a golf
tournament coming up here in April for for the foundation
to raise money for some scholarships. So you know, a
lot of projects going on all that. That golf tournament.
I still haven't gotten the invite to that one. Yeah,
you have, you have, So you've got to kind of
(10:46):
be some sort of a celebrity. Hey man. You know,
you know again, folks out there, you don't know what's
going on between Warren and Gym. So this has been
happening before we turn the record button on, and I'm
sure we'll continue. Just he was walking into them. Man,
that's the story of my life or the story of
(11:06):
my life. Man, Hey, you said something interesting. I want
to ask you about where you said now football is
a year round thing. When do you think that transition
sort of occurred? And what was an off season like
for you back when you did play? You know, that's
a good question when it actually happened. I think the
NFL and the NFL Network has kind of created, um,
(11:27):
you know, just by making all these things huge events,
like the NFL Draft now is a three day, prime
time huge event. It might be even four days now,
I'm not even sure. Um. And then they've made free
agency this thing where the build up to it is
amazing and and uh, everybody wants to know where everybody's
gonna be going. So I think it's just the marketing
(11:49):
of the NFL, the NFL Network and how they've made
these events that used to always be there. They've always
been an event, but they just made it a bigger
event by the way they've marketed all these and so
so you've got free agency becomes a huge musent. You've
got the Draft becomes a huge event. Uh, and then
you've got the O t A s. I mean, they
(12:10):
have full time staffs at all these different camps once
the O t A start and they're doing they're doing
live broadcasts from there. So just just the way the
NFL is marketed their sport and made it where everybody
has to always stay in tune what's going on in
the NFL. I just think it's brilliant marketing. You know.
Tony Dungy made a point that that back when he
(12:32):
played and even coached during a period, they would get
like ten weeks off in the off season. Um, exactly,
back back when you were playing, when you got that
kind of time off, what would guys do? What was
that that time away like relative to what we see
today where it seems like they had no time off. Yeah,
you did some type of training. Of course, you wanted
(12:54):
to keep yourself in some type of shape. You never
wanted to get totally away from at least I know
I didn't, because I knew how hard it was to
get back if you let yourself just totally go. Um.
You also had your trainers would send you different workout
plans to work on because you're not gonna come into
the facility anytime soon. Um. And then you use that
time for family and for vacations and other things you
(13:15):
want to do. Some guys went back to school and
took classes or whatever, so you at least you had
some time to be like a normal person, uh, in
the early part of the off season. But that's kind
of gone away now, and that's one of the things
that kind of made me want to retire, believe it
or not. When I was with Kansas City, that's when
kind of the O t A s came into play,
where they wanted you to be there three days a week.
And it wasn't like it is now where you can't
(13:37):
come in until April. It was back then it was
in March. Early in March you could start those O
t A s. And here I was. I was living
away from Houston from my family as it was throughout
the season in Kansas City. So once the season was over,
I didn't want to have to come back to Kansas
City three days a week and and you know, go
over the fundamentals of playing quarterback. You know, I'm in
(13:57):
my twenty third year at that time. It's like, I
don't want to do at anymore. So that was one
of the things that made me want to retire, that
I didn't want to be away from my family anymore
in the off season because that was the only time
I really had to be with them full time. So Yeah,
it's become a full time sport, not only the way
they're they're marketing it, the way there, the way they're
selling it, but it also has become a little bit
more of a full time gig for for the players
(14:19):
as well, you know, one before we get in, before
we get into football real quick. I'm just curious if
you think that in some ways it being a full
time job now hurts the players in terms of transitioning
out of football when they're done that they don't have,
you know, during the off season, second jobs like players
back in the day had or those sorts of things.
(14:40):
Do you think it's a factor at all? In some
ways it is. I think in one way, the players
are making so much more money now that they don't
have to worry as much about those second career opportunities
if they really are smart with their money, because the
money that they're making now is just so much greater
than what we were making through those days where and
even before I played, even before or that guy has
(15:00):
had to have second careers. But now, if you're smart
with your money and you take care of it, you
should be able to be all right and be able
to pick and choose at least a couple of years
after you're done playing the game on what what it
is you really want to get involved in. You don't
have to be as involved while you're playing, but you
still have time to do that because of the way
you can go online and take classes and things like that.
(15:23):
It's not gonna be that that combersome to where you
can't do anything. But again, the money part of it
is the key that if you put that money away,
you can really have a chance to just pick and
choose what you want to do when you're done playing
the game. Yeah, I also think the NFL you talk
about a year round thing and Warrant and Jim. It
seems to me there's a lot more programs involved to
(15:45):
help players in terms of prepare if they want to
get into the broadcast, and there's a broadcast boot camp.
There's all types of things that could help them transition.
It's just a matter of because of the money, do
the players really want to take advantage of that, Because
as you don't war and even though you played so
deep into your career, by the time you finish, you
still have a lot of life left to live, and
(16:06):
whether financial or not, you don't want to sit on
your hands for the next forty five years of your existence,
and that's the key. You definitely don't want to do that,
but you also if you do well financially, you can
take your time and figure out what it is you
want to do next with that opportunities in life, because
if you're a player that can get to that second contract,
(16:28):
that's what they always talk about. Can you get to
that second contrary, that second contract should usually set you
up pretty good for for a good portion of your
life if you can get to that one. And then
when you retire, you can now take a year or
a year off maybe or take two years and go
back to school and maybe get another degree, whatever it
is you want to do because you have the financial
(16:48):
ability to do that and not have to worry or
panic about that part of your life. And then you
can pick what you want to do and move on.
And that's kind of what I was able to do
when I retired. Um, I had a has to just
sit back and kind of look and see what I
wanted to do it going forward, and then I took
my time and did it. Once did you live in Seattle?
I know you said no longer doing the broadcast. But
(17:08):
you're just so familiar with this team. Yeah, this stuff
going on with Russell Wilson and the Seahawks. Um, it's
funny because we've seen so many former players, you know,
Richard Sherman, Earl Thomas, so many these other guys, Michael Bennett,
Marshawn Lynch, and that end really great for them, and
there's always kind of a year brush fire before they
parted ways with the team. Where do you think this
(17:32):
is headed. I think it's kind of headed unfortunately in
the same direction. Um. I think right now it's almost
like a marriage that's that's starting to just have squabbles,
and um, they're squabbling about, you know, certain little issues,
whether it's past protection, whether it's talent. There's all these
little squabbles going on right now. And I think because
(17:52):
of Russell's contract situation, there's not a whole lot of
Seahawks can do as far as moving him somewhere else,
even if they wanted to. So I think he's definitely
there this year, Um, unless they just want to take
a hit and not become a really good football team
for a year or so. But I think that the
marriage is not gonna end very well, going down the road,
(18:12):
I think this squabble is going to turn into more
of a separation and then a divorce at some point,
and that usually happens with most most players anyway. You
just don't like it to happen um because of you know,
the two sides not getting along. But when a player
plays one one place, probably ten years or more, there's
a good opportunity that he's probably not gonna finish his
(18:34):
career there, Tom Brady being an exception, and some others.
But there's when I when I saw Joe Montana got
traded to the Kansas City Chiefs back when when he
was with the four Uniners, I said, anybody in this
league is expendable. And Joe wasn't really having a squabble
or anything. He just had another really good player behind
him waiting in the wings, and that that made him expendable.
(18:56):
You know the thing that's interesting about that Montana story,
I remember Eddie Bartelow told me he said, when all
that was going down, he brought Joe to his home
and he said to Joe, do you want to stay?
And he said, if you want to stay, I will
make it happen. And he said, Joe told him, no,
it's time to move on. And so basically it was
Joe's call at that point to go, I think because
(19:18):
he felt he didn't have the full support of the
head coach at that time, and so he moved on.
The thing that's curious to me about Russell is like,
even with the A B thing, they went after A
B hard last year, they made it over to him.
He chose to go to Tampa, So it wasn't like
they didn't attempt to bring a B in. And that's
(19:38):
worn sometimes when I hear players talking talking is if
they want to be a factor in personnel decisions, there
are things that go on that they don't understand. And
I don't know that Russell understands that A B made
his own decision a year ago on where to play.
So you're gonna hold that against the organization that a
(20:00):
player tells to go elsewhere. That's not on jonnath Snyder
and Pete Carroll. So what is that fine line or
that balancing point between what a player wants an impact
player like Russell, and what the team feels it's in
its best centrist. How do you balance that? Well? I
think if anything, you just kind of maybe give the
(20:20):
quarterback the respect and listen to his opinion. That doesn't
mean you have to do what he what he suggests.
I mean when I was with Houston, they used to
come to me all the time during training camp or
whenever it was and asked me my opinion about certain
receivers or a certain running back, or we're thinking about
bringing in this coach to you know, to coach this position.
What do you think? So I got asked my opinion
(20:41):
a lot about different things, and I gave my opinion,
but they still were gonna go ahead and make the
decision on what was best for the organization, and I
understood that. I just thought it was great that they
even included me in any of those decisions. I remember
when Jack Party was hired as our head coach. You know,
he was gonna bring in the run and shoot, and
they asked me my opinion on what I thought about
bringing in Jack and what I thought about running an
offense like that. I thought it would be pretty fun.
(21:04):
So I told him my opinions about it, and they
ended up hiring Jack. That they hiring because of me, No,
but they did get my opinion, which was which was great.
So I think that's all Russell can really ask for
is is if they're gonna ask his opinion about certain
things and there's a respect factor there that that they
they respect his opinion, But that doesn't mean he's going
(21:26):
to be the the the deciding factor and what they
end up doing, because like you said, it's gonna come
down to a lot of other factors that the player
is not even aware of, But especially when it comes
to a player, because you have to evaluate that player.
We don't know the history of that player. We don't
know what he might have been involved in off the field,
We don't know about any of those things unless you're
willing to sit there and do all that due diligence
(21:49):
on what what they do when they evaluate a player.
If you want to get involved in personnel decisions, and
you better be willing to sit in that office and
do all the work that it takes to know what
what what goes into uh goes into bringing in a player. Um,
whether it's the free agency, trade or whatever it might be.
Do they value Russell's opinion? Do you believe? I think
(22:10):
they do. But again, they know so much more than
what the player is gonna know. All we know is
I like this receiver. He's great, we have a good rapport,
we worked out together in the off season. I'd like
to have him on my football team. But there's so
much more that goes into bringing in a player than
just your relationship with So that's something that hopefully that
(22:31):
Russell understand the rest of it. Yeah, what is it
gonna be? Protection? Is it gonna be a B? I mean,
we're hearing a whole lot of stuff from Russell, But Warren,
you you just told the story about how Houston's leadership
came to you for your opinion and they seem to
value your opinion even though it may not have made
the decisions based on your opinion. Sounds a lot like
(22:51):
what's going on with that franchise right now. I'm saying
that oozing with sarcasm. By the way. You're talking about
with Houston, Yes, Houston, Yes, not the Titans. I'm talking
about the club in Houston used the problem with Houston.
They didn't they didn't let DeShawn know what they were doing,
which and they're they're the ones that suggested that we
(23:14):
would let you know what we're doing, and then they
didn't let him know what he's doing what you were
doing it He ended up finding out I guess on
the on the internet. You know, that they hired an
offensive coordinator, that they hired, a new general manager that
they hired. I don't know. I don't know about the
coach part of it, but uh yeah, he just felt like,
(23:34):
I'm sure you told me you want to be involved
in the process, but then you don't involve me in
the process to go along with all the other things
that had gone on in the organization prior to that,
whether it was you know, their stance on social justice,
getting rid of all these great players over the years
that has really depleted the football team. There's a lot
of reasons why Deshaun is unhappy with that organization. You know, Warren,
(23:58):
how much does that that impact a player? And I mean,
let me phrase it this way. We're seeing players speak
out a lot more yea in today's game than we
saw when you did play. Why do you think that
is and do you think that's a good thing for
the league at this point? I think it's a great thing.
And I think the reason why is because of their
(24:19):
social media platforms that we didn't have when I played.
Back when when I played, you did an interview, and
you hope that interview, whether it had any substance to
it or not, wasn't edited down to a point or
whatever was was actually put out there, um, was what
you actually said or what the meaning of what you
were trying to get across. Today, because of social media,
(24:40):
these guys have their own platforms. Everything they say is organic.
It goes right out to either their fan base or
anybody else that wants to pick it up. And you
understand exactly where that player is coming from because it's
what he said out of his mouth, not edited interview
or anything like that. So I think it's great that
they have these platforms, and I also think it's the
(25:00):
better that they're using these platforms to to voice their
opinions on certain things. So yeah, I think it's good
all the way around. As long as you make sure
what you say can't bring it back. You know, you
better be sure before, like uh, coach says, don't press
in until you're really sure about what what it is
that you're putting out there, because once it's out in
the universe, it doesn't go away. Yeah, it's Coach Edwards
(25:23):
her medworths. Any time you get her medwords dropping here,
we're good, you know what, or and I'm curious, though,
would you have been an active social media user back
during your playing days, I would have to a certain point.
I just didn't feel like, especially with the number of
guys that I had during the time that I played
at my position being African American, that I that I
(25:45):
had the cache to do that. Um. I talked a
lot about the position in general and what I thought
needed to be improved at the quarterback position. I talked
more on that subject than I did on maybe social
justice and things like that. But I probably would have
been a little bit more vocal if I would have
known that whatever it is I wanted to say would
(26:07):
would be put out there as opposed to how things
can be changed around or or or edited to where
it doesn't come off the way you wanted to come off.
So yeah, I would have been much more vocal if
I had the platforms that these players have today, but
I don't I would have. I would probably would have
took it to the point some of these guys were
able to do it today because I think they have
a lot more power now than we did back when
(26:28):
I played. That's an interesting point warrant because when you played,
obviously there were very few African American quarterbacks past exactly
this past season, I think we had ten starting black quarterbacks.
And I'm wondering, how did that influence or or how
did that effect what you were willing to speak about
(26:51):
publicly during that time versus what you might have been
willing to speak on in today's climate. YEA, See, the
I was always conscious of is I didn't want to
make any mistakes that we're going to hurt the next
group of guys. As far as me coming into the league,
the amount of money that I was played, being paid,
(27:11):
all the different things that went along with it. And
then we had Doug who who emerged and all of
a sudden became the NF became the Super Bowl, m
v P and that that was that was or something
like that. So uh, I knew I could say certain things,
but I also knew that I didn't want to rock
the boat too much to where it hurt that next
(27:32):
generation of guys, because I was very conscious of being
able to help that next group of guys get more
opportunities to come in and play the game. And I
felt once those guys get got those opportunities, and once
they got a chance to get on the field and
start showing what they could do, then that would kind
of increase our confidence, increase, uh, the things that we
(27:54):
could say as players. But if you only had one
or two at the time. When I came into the
league and I teen four, I was the only African
American starting quarterback and the only only other one in
the league was my third team quarterback, Brian Ransom from
Tennessee State. Doug was in the USFL, Vince Evans was
in the USFL. No, those guys were in the league
at that time. So I was treading really really thin
(28:17):
water at that time to make sure that I didn't
do anything wrong, uh, to to hurt the process for
other guys coming along. Did you feel that was more
of a burden or or just a responsibility? Both a
burden and a responsibility, but a burden and I was
willing to take because I knew what I had gone
through to get to that point anyway, So I wasn't
(28:38):
gonna let anything destroy that once I got into the league.
I was just gonna make sure that that I carried
myself well, that I did everything with class that I uh,
that I made sure I played well on the field
and in all those different things. So, um, yeah, it
was something I knew I had to carry because I
(28:58):
mean people would tell me at everywhere I went, everywhere
I traveled around the country, people saw me, it's like, Warren,
you gotta represent us. You know, you gotta represent us.
I heard that everywhere, not just in Houston. So it
was something I was very very conscious of that that
I knew I was at guinea pig out there that
had to do things right. That's disresponsibility, it is. I mean,
(29:21):
just hearing you say that. You can talk about Doug
in the USFL. Why'd he end up in the USFL
with the Oklahoma Outlaws because he wanted a legitimate contract
with the Buccaneers, They're like, we're not paying you even
though he'd gotten them to the playoffs when they were
the worst team in NFL history. And that kind of
leads to another point. You know, you you having that
that burden responsibility and forwarding it to today's game and
(29:43):
not even talking about the color of the quarterback. We
saw Carson Wentz leverage himself out of Philadelphia. Maybe Deshaun
can leverage himself out of Houston. What about the quarterbacks
using that power at that position, saying you're not doing
it right, I don't want to be you a part
of this. Get me out of here now. Yeah, there
are certain guys that that have the ability to do that,
(30:05):
and um, you know, have the cachet to do that. Um. Again,
I didn't feel like I had that at that particular time.
But if you look at what's going on with these
guys now, you look at des Sean who just signed
a hundred and forty fifty million dollar contract. You look
at Patrick Mahomes a half billion dollar contract. You look
at what some of these guys are gonna sign for,
Dak Dak Prescott, what he just signed for. I mean,
(30:29):
they have that power, um with the guarantees and their
contract which we didn't have. Then you gotta remember when
I came in lead, we didn't have free agency. Free
agency didn't come into what. Yeah, so it was a
while before you felt like you had even the power
to move teams or less. Uh you know, say something
(30:49):
about trying to get out of somewhere and go go
to another place. But because these guys have that type
of financial uh stability behind them, Um, they have their
own social networks now, so they can say what they
want to say and they can flex their most is
a little bit more and I'm glad that they're doing it.
That's that's that's the key is you're not just sitting
there with all this power and not doing anything with it.
(31:12):
You're actually using it. You know, Warren, you and I
had this conversation before, and I'll bring it up again
for for the audience on the podcast. And I ask
you late last year we've got we had ten black
quarterbacks or quarterbacks who were black who were starting this year,
and I ask you, if we've moved past the point
of race and the evaluation of quarterbacks. I want you
(31:35):
to tell the audience what you think about that. What's
your response was to that. I think for the most part,
um guys are are being evaluated off of it. They
can play or not. But there are still there's still
some thinking, there's some old thinking that if you don't
we had a certain a certain box, if you don't
(31:58):
look a certain way, if you're not it's a certain way,
then you're not going to be a quarterback in this league,
that you should change positions. And I use a guy
who was just voted m VP of the league just
two years ago. Lamar Jackson is my example. Uh, they
were still highly respected general managers and scouting people that
(32:19):
were saying he should change positions and move moved to
another position. I'm like, what are you kidding me? So yeah,
I think for the most part it has changed, but
still some old guard thinking there that if you don't
look a certain style or a certain way, you should
be in another position. When do you think the transition
(32:40):
began that it was less of a factor mm hmmm.
I think after maybe the Donovan McNabb kind of classic
came in with Dante co Pepper and all those guys.
Then Michael Vick came in there and he became, you
know what, the first hundred million dollar player in the NFL.
(33:03):
H highly endorsed a guy. I think that's when they
started to buy in that this different style of play
could work in the National Football League and African Americans
were the ones kind of who could play that style
the best, and and that's where it started to change.
I think during during those it would be the late
nineties into early two thousand, I think that's when you
(33:23):
really started to take notice that these guys can play
the position at a high level, and we're gonna start
drafting them that way. And we're also gonna start maybe
drafting some guys in the third or fourth round and
developing them for the future. And that's even bigger than
the guys that you know can probably play as opposed
to putting us some putting, some time and some effort
(33:44):
and some development into maybe a younger guy who may
might not be ready to play right now, but can
be your guy two or three years down the road. Well,
you see Russell Wilson third round draft pick, Dak Prescott
fourth round draftic even guys like Jacobe Brissett, you know
who are who are developmental players. Um, I'm going in
and playing. So you know all that note and maybe
you know you said there's show some gard thinking maybe
(34:05):
the guy has to change the positions, but I think
part of the transition, and just to get your thoughts
on it also seems to be the fact that some
of these coaches, especially using college ideology a lot of
example from HBCU offenses, are are being more open minded.
You know, Greg Roman and OC doing some things to
play to Lamar Jackson's running ability. Yet alone other teams
(34:27):
looking at other quarterbacks like a Dak Prescott or Russell Wilson,
catering their offenses to their strengths to do. Do you
believe that more there's more coaching open minded this in flexibility,
then you know that than in the past, which is
saying we can play this guy, we just have to
adjust how we think instead of making them adjust a
position they play. Yeah, that's one of the biggest things
I think I've seen in the NFL over the last
(34:49):
ten years, fifteen years, maybe because they've adapted what these
young guys are doing not only what they're doing in college,
but it goes all the way back to what they're
starting to do in middle school and junior and high
in high well, um, they're becoming different types of quarterbacks.
They're becoming the read option type quarterbacks. Uh, those are
the things that these kids are learning in these camps.
(35:10):
So this that's the stuff that they're learning with their
quarterback camps, I mean, their quarterback coaches that are coaching
them those types of techniques. So if these kids have
been learning this maybe since they were twelve, thirteen, fourteen
years old, all the way through college, it makes so
much sense that the NFL adapts what they've been doing,
take what they do best, and adapted into your offense
in the National Football League. One, you're gonna have more
(35:33):
success out of that guy because learning curve and then
to um it's just something that that makes it easier
for him to understand and you can get him going
at an earlier, earlier time in his career because they're
asking these these first round guys to play right away,
So what better way to get them to play fast
(35:54):
than to do what they've been doing all their lives.
So that's been one of the smartest thing a lot
of these NFL coaches have done over the last ten
years or so is adapt what these guys are doing
in college and bringing it into the league and not
being so so hard hitted that you're gonna make a
guy you're trying to put a square pig into a
round hole by making a guy learn this this completely
(36:14):
new offense that he's never seen before, but you want
him to be ready for week one of the seasons.
When we see that like Josh Josh, I'm sorry, Jim
Josh Allen at this point of his career makes such
a seismic bump. I mean, he had higher completion percentages everything,
and he's threw the ball a hundred and ten times
more than did the previous year. I mean, what do
(36:35):
you attribute something like that too? Because again, when you
were coming up, it would take three years before a
guy would get to be the starter and be ready,
and all of a sudden in his third year he
makes that significant bump, And what do you what do
you attribute something like that because we don't see it often. Again,
I think it's Brian Dabo, their offensive coordinator, seeing what
(36:56):
Josh Allen does best, having watched him for his first
couple of years. Those are the things that they just
continued to keep grinding into him. You're bringing us to
find Diggs who just increases their their receiving corps to
another level. And then the hard work that uh that
Josh is put in. He put in a tremendous amount
of work, uh, you know, working with his quarterback coach
(37:17):
in the off season and and just perfecting his technique
because he wasn't a very fundamentally sound quarterback coming out
of coming out of college, but he's really worked on
his footwork. He was almost like this big piece of
of of clay and you just needed to be able
to mold him into what you wanted to mold him into,
because he had everything that you wanted work ethic, big, strong, athletic,
(37:39):
great arm, all those things, and now you just had
to make him into player. But he had to be
wanting to put it in the work and he did that.
So that's the reason why this guy had so much
success over the last two or three years. You see
whether sir as he frozen frozen. So so here's one
for you, warrant. So when we look at some of
these first and second round draft pick, you know, we
(38:01):
were talking to Arizona Cardinals GM Steve come about hitting right,
but then it Jamis went to Marcus Mario at the
one and two didn't get the big deals on different teams. Now,
Jared Goff and Carson Wentz one and two a year
later they got paid and they're on different teams. But
if these guys were there their team's franchise quarterbacks, they
wouldn't have been moved there. Let go or a lot
(38:23):
of seak unemployment with with the draft coming up and
we're talking about Trevor Lawrence and Jack Wilson and Justin
Fields and guys like that. What about nailing. I mean
we talked about how it's it's an imperfect science drafting,
but then we also we were just talking about right
here coaching to these guys strengths. I mean, how much
does that have to mesh for some talented players, because
(38:45):
we know Jamis and Marcus are talented, but how much
does that have to mesh to really allow them to
shine and for these teams to get the return on
investment of that first or second overall pick. Well, you
want all those things to come together. You want to
create an offense that this young quarterback whatever whoever it
is Jamis or Marcus or whoever the young quarterback is
(39:07):
coming in I can adapt to and feel comfortable. So
if you can somehow around these guys with with with
good talent and then also bringing an offense, is gonna
make this quarterback feel much more comfortable and they have
a chance to be a competitive football team earlier. Oh
not noe, Then do you think to a tongue of
Voloa comes into the season with the clean slate in
(39:29):
terms of evaluation, with everything he had to go through,
you know, rehabbing, no offseason coming in when he did
not having a ton of weapons around, even though he
was on a ten win football team, right, And I
think he'll be better this year one because he doesn't
have to worry about rehabbing in an off season. He
doesn't have to worry about the psychological part of can
I go out here and play and do the things
(39:50):
that I'm capable of doing, knowing I'm just coming off
of this a devastating type of hip injury that that
he was going through, and then and then going to
a team, like you said, it didn't have a lot
of explosive weapons for him to work with. He's used
to having those type of weapons in Alabama that he
could just pick and choose where he wanted to go
with the football. So it's it's a big difference when
now you have to raise everybody's level of play around
(40:12):
you as a quarterback, but you're still kind of unsure
of yourself. So I think he will be better, and
I think he'll be judged. He'll have a chance to
be judged more fairly this year, having had an off season,
all right, one before we let you get out of
here because uh, Jim's internet has crashed. We'll finish up
on on this one right here. I had to tell
(40:33):
you that because we started this off with you taking
a shot at him, he's not here to defend himself.
So um, and you know what, I knew he would
somehow not be on the air by the time this
show was earlier and not have any rebuttal there you go,
all right, and well real quick to also, you know
(40:53):
you talked about you're traveling a little bit. We see
the country opening up a little bit as we're getting
vaccines and things like that. To you move moving forward
over these next couple of months and approaching the season
and some of the the things you'd like to do, getting
up to Canton for the Hall of Fame. Um, what
you always do? I mean, how is this living through
the past year Ben for you and now that we're
starting to see a little bit of sunshine come over
(41:15):
the horizon, just kind of your expectations in the exhale
that we're all gonna be able to do hopefully in
the next couple of months. Yeah, it's been a tremendous
burn on everybody, There's no question about it. And uh,
you know, I learned a whole lot about myself as
far as patients again being tested this year, because I'm
a guy that year on the move all the time.
(41:35):
A lot of what I do for a living had
to do with getting on airplanes and going to different
cities and and you know, speaking with different people and
doing different things like that. All that came to a hole.
I was also worried about my family because I have
a fourteen year old who's involved in sports, going to
school every day, and being around his friends. All that
was taken away from him. I have grandkids that are
(41:57):
going through the same thing. So those were my biggest serns.
How do I how do I keep my young kids
motivated as far as wanting to learn, being able to
still get their exercise, and be able to integrate with
their friends, because that's a big part of being young,
is that social that social involvement. And and for me,
(42:20):
you know, I'm an older guy. I've lived a really,
really good life, so it's not like I'm just having
everything snatched away from me. But but it was an
adjustment for me as well. But now that I've had
my vaccine, I'm starting to get out and travel a
little bit more. I just hope people continue to still
keep being safe because we're not out of this thing,
yet continue to keep wearing your mask, continue to keep
(42:42):
being social distance if you can, and then try and
get your fascination if you can't, because I think it's
something that everybody should strive to get. Um A lot
of people are really hesitant about it, but I've had
minea and having had any problems with it, and I
think it's being better off if we can get more
people were fascinated, so we can get to this herd
(43:02):
immunity and we can start getting back to normal, to
start doing some of the things that we used to
do as people that that kept us happy. I won't you.
You can't get off easy gyms back. Any technology caught
up to him. He's back. I am now on my
cell phone, neither my laptop nor my PC or working
(43:24):
with the links, so I hit the cell phone up,
so I'm being resourceful. I know Warren probably talked about
me pretty bad while I was gone, but that's okay.
What is that bad? It was? It was tempering. And
I'm gonna do him a senior box, and it's gonna
have a lot of technology equipment in it, lighting, androphones
and all kinds of things, and it's gonna also have
(43:44):
instructions on how to use all those things so for
your next against they won't have to go through this.
I feel for you, but you know what I wanna,
I'm gonna pay some respect here, um, even though you've
done that. But Warren, I'm sure you've heard this before.
You threw the pretty spiral I've ever seen in my life.
(44:09):
Where when did you have that right away? Or was
there someone that helped you develop that? Just a lot
of practice, Jim. And it started when I was a
young young kid, um, you know, twelve thirteen years old,
just in my in my street. Um. I lived right
in a corner, so I had four street lights right
in the intersection. Uh. And that allowed me to stay
(44:30):
out a little bit later than than other kids, just
throw the football and I didn't come in the house.
I could just throw all night. I had a buddy
down the street by the name of Hector Sims, and
he was standing there and catch that ball for me
until until I just couldn't throw it anymore, until my
mother kept yelling for me to come into house at night.
So it was just a lot of practice, um. And
(44:52):
then when I got into the league, had a lot
to do with my fingernail, believe it or not, on
my forefinger, and people have talked about that with me.
If my fingernail was the right limp, that ball spun
as pretty as any ball that you've ever seen be thrown.
And and uh, I've had different times and games where
I've called time out and went over to the sideline.
I asked for a fingernail file to found my nail
(45:13):
down because my ball wasn't spending the way I wanted
it too. So you are a kidding, No, you're kidding
so far. I went with this thing and and asked,
Johnny rattled that story one day, He'll tell you. Do
you try to break your finger? He called? I called
the time out on the drive We're going down against
Miami and we were we were coming from behind, and
(45:35):
I called time out, and everybody's panicking, what's wrong? What?
What's wrong? What's going on? Why is it coming over here?
And I walked over to the trainer and said, go
get that fingernail file for me, and I found the
fingernail down and ended up throwing the winning touchdown past
the quadria issuel to win the football games. My forefinger
on my passing hand. But that's the finger that would
(45:57):
make that ball spinning. If you look at the balls
it I would throw, you would see you would see uh,
scratches in the ball from from my fingernail from how
I throw the football. Wow, what a story. I did
not know. I didn't know that. So tell me this.
Did you play baseball? Did you pitch? But I always
felt like I was gonna wreck my arm for football,
(46:18):
so I didn't pitch a lot, but I played more shortstop,
but I did pitch something. Yeah, let me be clear.
The four finger is that the index finger, next finger
on my passing and that's where the ball comes off
when you get that flick of the football and ana
you would actually hear the sound come up of it.
Would you could hear my fingernails slice it into the ball.
(46:41):
You know, they would probably find you today for following
on the sideline. Hurt me. Now they can't fingernail gate.
Fingernail gate find We're gonna find Warren Moon or whatever
club he's with. Warren. I'm curious, how many yards would
you have thrown for in today's game? Yeah, Jim, Jim,
we don't even want to talk about how many yards
(47:03):
with Marino throw for? How many yards ailway throw for
how many yards? With you know, all the guys that
I played with during my era. I mean they're all
in the Hall of Fame basically, and and all those
guys could spend it. So, yeah, we would have had
a field day with the way that the way the
game is played right now in the rules, somebody's reprobably
still be playing because you can't touch nobody. Well, I
(47:25):
wanted to ask you, as a Hall of Famer, all
of these quarterbacks are gonna put up numbers now, yeah,
so how do you how do you differentiate them when
it comes to say the Hall of Fame, because I
get so tired of hearing people say the minute of
quarterback retires, he's a Hall of Famer. Look at where
he ranks on this list in terms of passing yards
or whatever. From your standpoint, how do you separate them?
(47:49):
That's a good question, and that's something you as one
of the selectors who are gonna have to figure out
because the game is going to continue to keep evolving.
And uh, I don't know how much further it's gonna
ago now than it than it has with the passing game,
because it seems like it's it's almost as far as
it can go, as far as what these guys are
being asked to do. At some point, who knows, maybe
(48:11):
the trend will go back to running the football. I
don't know, because this game has tended to be a
game of trends where running backs are dominant and all
of a sudden, quarterback and passing becomes dominant, and then
it might go back to running backs. But I don't
think so because of the way that the rules are
right now. So that's something you guys have to figure out. Uh.
You can't just go by, you know, what a guy's
(48:33):
yards are anymore. And I think that's why Super Bowls
and things like that, it becomes so much more important
now than they ever have before. Uh, In evaluating whether
quarterbacks should go to the ProFootball of Fame, because the
numbers they're gonna all have big numbers, you're gonna have
to figure out other things or other reasons why you
evaluate them for the Hall of Fame. Do you think
we should place a greater importance on postseason numbers? Regularcies
(48:57):
and numbers? Probably you have doesn't have to necessarily be
Super Bowls because only one guy can win a Super
Pride every year. But definitely you know what he's done
in that second season, because there's gonna be guys from
bad football teams that are gonna throw for a lot
of yards because they're behind all the time. So they're
they're gonna be throwing the football just to hit in
the game, and so they they might throw for three
(49:19):
fifty four hundred yards every week, but they're not winning
those games because they're just playing from behind. So you
can look at what was going on with Dak Prescott, uh,
with his with his early season last year. He was
throwing for a ton of yards, but they weren't winning
because he's playing from behind all the time. So that's
the perfect example of that um And at the end
(49:41):
of the season, okay, he might have forty five hundred
yards or close to five thousand yards, but he only
won five six games. So I think the second season
is gonna be a little bit more important going forward
for quarterbacks. All right, warn hey man, we appreciate you
taking the time. We know you got a bunch to
eat the bird to catch. Well, I just wanna first
of all say thank you guys for having me on
(50:02):
the show. I have tremendous respect for both of you
and what you've been doing for the league for a
number of years. I've known you both for a long time.
Appreciate you, Appreciate you. Appreciate you guys. Keep doing what
you're doing, keep educating, and keep keeping people on top
of what they're what they're supposed to be doing, because
you gotta do a great job without keeping people accountable. Well,
(50:23):
I really appreciate you, Bro. Thank you Bro. Well, Fortunately,
Steve my my internet is working better today than it
did on that morning with Warren. But but let me
get back to this. You know, since we're getting so
(50:44):
close to the draft. You know, the reason it's so
fascinating to me about whether or not race is still
a factor in the evaluation of the quarterback position is
because you have to understand the history of this league,
and I think sometimes people forget that from thirty four
to forty six there was an informal ban on blacks
being allowed in the NFL, so we weren't even allowed
(51:06):
to play, And after that there was essentially ostensibly a
ban on blacks playing the quarterback position because it was
felt either we weren't smart enough or we didn't have
the qualities to lead a team. But to say we
have not made progress would be foolish. From this standpoint,
three of the last six league MVPs have been quarterbacks
(51:27):
who happened to be black. Five of the last fifteen
quarterbacks who were drafted number one overall were persons of color,
and each of the last two passing yards leader were
African American. So from that standpoint, we've made progress. Even
looking at the draft, in the ten drafts from OH.
One to six, of the quarterbacks selected in the first
(51:50):
round were black. That's over the last ten drafts, eleven
of the thirty two quarterbacks taken in the first round
were black. That thirty four point four. So there has
been improvement in that way. But I don't think we
can ever forget that. It was only a few years
ago that Bill Pollian, who was a Hall of Famer,
said that Lamar Jackson should change positions coming into the NFL. So,
(52:14):
to me, race remains a factor in this and that's
why it's so particularly offensive to me. What's happening to
justin fields at this point. Yeah, you know, you hate
hearing it, but look, you heard it when he came
out of hig school. Because remember when he came out,
he was ahead of Trevor Lawrence. He was the top
rated quarterback, Trevor Lawrence with the Clemps and Justin Fields
with the Georgia to start out with, and he was
(52:34):
behind Jake from at Georgia, and so he didn't get
to start right away. He came in a lot of
gimmick packages. So that kind of stereotype narrative, the whole
Randall Cunningham substitution type narrative was already starting to be drawn.
Then he goes to Ohio State kills it. I mean,
it just has a great career. So then you're starting
to hear, oh, you have an Ohio State quarterbacks don't
(52:57):
do well in the NFL. Well, less two turns things around.
You know, Alabama quarterbacks haven't done great in the NFL either,
yet we're talking about Mac Jones possibly on his highest three.
So you know, there there's just all kinds of things
here and there that you know, we just have to
do better. Jimmy glad to point, we have to do
better as as messengers of the media and people who
have relationships with with coaches and personnel directors a disseminating
(53:19):
information and presend to get in context. You know, and
I think you know, you brought up down our lost key.
He did show the context of how Justin Fields reads
the field, you know, and that's what was so disappointing, Steah,
That's what was so disappointing. He contradicted all of that
in the segment he did for NFL. I'm sorry for ESPN.
He contradicted all of it based on his own research
(53:42):
and study. So then to turn around and say, well,
this is what I'm hearing from personnel people and not
have to identify those personnel people and why they might
say something negative about Justin Fields was just disappointing to me.
Who do you trust, Dan? Do you trust your personal
evaluation of this? It? Are you trusting these personnel people
(54:02):
who have a vested interests to lie to you potentially
about in terms of saying negative things about Justin Fields?
And that's what bothers me here. Look, I think people
have a right to their opinion. If you think Justin
Fields is lazy or you think he can't go through reprogressions,
you're entitled to say that. But at this point, put
your name on it. That's all I ask. If you
(54:23):
believe that, put your name on it. I don't believe
you should be allowed to say things like that negative,
negatively knowing the larger implications of what it means for
a young black man to have those labels attached to him.
And if you have the antid intel, if you're someone
to know he's the last one in, the first one out,
you know, put your name on it because I gotta.
I'll tell you what there's about. He's probably got about
(54:44):
seventy five eighty five teammates who can give you the intel.
Some of them are coming on in the draft. So
these so these teams speaks all of these guys, you know,
so the team, the teams know the real deal. Again,
So that's what we have to do a better job
of e sseminating information the media as well. Speaking of
disseminating information, uh, you know, we we want to thank
(55:07):
everyone who has joined us here on the Huddle Flow podcast.
We've grown, we've delivered, we've served a cause, we've generated
more causes, had some great conversations and interviews on here.
We want to think all of our guests who have
come on. But Jim I and Thomas Warren, our producer,
we're gonna ready take a little bit of a breather. Good,
we gotta we gotta take some downtime. We're gonna go
(55:28):
on hiatus. So while we're out for the next couple
of weeks, please listen to some of the archived podcast
that we have on Spotify and iTunes or wherever you
get your podcasts, and go back and listen to some
of the great interviews that we've had to see you know,
where we started, where we've come from, and just how
some of the great information even from people like Chuck
d you know, James Lopez and Solo, Dad O'Brien and
(55:50):
on football people you know, Jamal Hill, Carry Champion that
was fun and Kimberly Martin people like that. Listen to
some of the things that were said and you can back. Wow.
I mean there's a lot of foreshadowing, a lot of
good information there, um and really enjoy that, you know,
because Jim and I, you know, we're we'll be back
in a little bit with more information to show. You know,
(56:10):
we're we're huddling. Flow is headed into the into the
off season to the next season. But yeah, you know
the brother, the brother's got to take a breathe, right, Jim, Absolutely,
So it's it's been uh, these last twelve months or
last year has been a grind man and there has
not been a break. I know you snuck away for
a minute for a couple of days here and there.
For me, I haven't been able to do that yet.
(56:32):
So my house has been on lockdown. I have not
been able to get out. But I got my first
COVID shot. I'm waiting on that second one, and when
that hits, you might not find me again. See, so
you know, I definitely need to get out here. I
got my second shot coming to I have. I have
(56:53):
my uh last Monday. So um, it's it's everyone, you know,
if you can't get get your shot, let's let's get
the stuff knocked out so we can get back to
doing what we want to do. And on that no gym,
we're gonna do what we want to do. So why
don't you take why don't you take us home and
take us to Grandma's and for a couple of other
(57:14):
relatives to make them back for a minute. We we again,
and we mean this sincerely. We want to thank you
all for listening. We want to thank you for subscribing
to the podcast. We want you to leave us your comments,
your thoughts, let us know who you want to hear from,
what you want to hear about. In that way we
(57:36):
can continue to give you more of what you're punking for.
That's right. Well, again, we appreciate everybody so much, especially
our guests who have come on, and the teams in
the in the in the booking people who have helped
us get some of these guests on, and and just
you listeners for growing, for growing with us and just
kind of giving us a lane that we've helped discover
(57:59):
you know ourselves. So you guys, we Jim and I
have driven a card in a certain way and you
guys are taking a ride with us and and we
we we hope to be back in a little bit,
uh to give you a little bit more. And for
our producer Thomas Warren, who has folks, he has busted
his ask. Okay you know Thomas Warren r H you
brother has has done so much to to get this going,
(58:22):
so he needs that breather too. But for Thomas, Jim
and me and into it sponsored the show that probably
makes a turbo tax ment and quick books, we are
the h you mob and we are out
Coming up on Huddling Flow. You are a kidding No,
you're kidding far I went with this thing and and
asked Johnny rattled that story one day, He'll tell you.
Do you try to break your finger? He called. I
called the time out on a drive. We're going down
against Miami and we were we were coming from behind,
(00:23):
and I called time out, and everybody's panicking, what's wrong?
What's wrong? What's going on? Going coming over here? And
I walked over to the trainer and said, go get
that figernail foul for me. And I found the figuernail
down and ended up throwing the winning touchdown past the
quadria issuel to win the football game. That's next on
Huddling Flow. And we are back on the Huddle Flow podcast,
(01:01):
brought to you by Into It, the Problem Makers of
Turbo Tax Quick Books and Meant. I am Steve White,
my brother Jim Trot are two thirds of the Howard
University Mafia producer Thomas Warren on the one two is
completes the puzzle. Jim, we're about three weeks out from
the NFL draft. Let's percolated a little bit, right, you know,
and now we're getting all of the hearsay all, well,
(01:22):
not just now, but we're getting it all. But I
just find it interesting case today we know we're gonna
have Warren Moon on our special guest, you know, and
it does do like the first four picks now are
going to be quarterbacks. Just looking at that element of it,
the evaluation of those guys, and then some of the
guys who could be greatest greatly impacted guys, you know,
like Sam Donald. You know, it looks like two and
(01:44):
Jalen Hurts are gonna be fine now because their team
is traded back and clearly showing faith in them. But
when you look at what's coming down the pike jam,
especially if we're having Warren Moon on all this conversation
about quarterbacks and your team, especially the forty nine is
the team you grew up. The draft really seems to
start with that, Uh, no question. Um, it's you know, Steve,
(02:04):
this is like my favorite time of year and the
time of year I hate most. From this standpoint. I
love the fact that many of these young players are
going to realize their dream of playing in the NFL
being drafted by an NFL club, but also hate the
fact that we in the media creates stories that aren't stories.
We have teams that tell us during this draft season
what that they lie to us to benefit themselves. They're
(02:28):
open about that they lie to us, and yet we
in the media will take what they say and use
it anonymously, give them the blanket of anonymity to say
things about players to drive down a player's value in
hopes that they possibly have a chance that that player
in the draft, which I understand. But the thing that
bothers me about it is that they seem to forget
(02:49):
that when they do this, sometimes they're impacting and speaking
on the character of these young men. And the example
this week, as you know, is justin Fields and everything
now that we're starting to hear anonymously about him to
try and maybe push him down the draft board so
that another team has an opportunity to draft him. And
(03:09):
it just does not sit well with me, knowing the
history of this league and the narrative about black quarterbacks
in the NFL, such as last one in, first one out,
can't get off the first to read this. It's just
it's it's interesting though, because some teams, I mean, their
scheme is it's first read or improvised, right, you know,
(03:30):
they'll tell you their second and third read, but we
know certain schemes are shown. Look, even even the guy
Justin Herbert had to eat some of that, you remember
with three. But when it comes to the black quarterback,
it is so consistent, I mean year on Yeah, you know,
the guys just not into his books. That mug he's
And it's just like when like the next time we
(03:51):
hear that about a white quarterback, like he's he's just
I mean, honestly the only quarterback, only white quarterback. I've
heard that about that that comes to short memories Johnny Manzel.
And that's just because I said, Kevin Somelin didn't do
a big playbook. He did a week to week you know,
iPad game plan. And that's how Johnny Mantel learned. It
(04:11):
wasn't even so much yet he was just out there
doing it. And and that's that they gave him. You
know that the kit as an excuse in terms of
that instead of oh yeah, he's he doesn't work that hard,
or he's he's this or that. And you know when
the stuff about Justin Fields coming out, Jim, you know,
I know we've do it for a long time. It's
it's where teams to try to move off of him.
(04:35):
And you know, it just sucks that we know this,
we don't repeat this, we don't, we don't you and
I don't say this no, And that's what bothers me. Look,
I think we would all agree that Alex Smith is
one of the brighter quarterbacks in the NFL. Well, I
remember back in San Francisco when Nord Turner was there
as the offensive coordinator, they cut the field in half
for him to try and have success, and they told
(04:57):
him he only had to read half the field. Didn't
hear anybody saying that Alex Smith was dumb or couldn't
process or go through progressions back then when that happened.
It was something that the forty Niners did at that
time to try and help a young players succeed before
expanding on the foundation that they were laying for him.
The thing about the Justin Field situation that really bothers me,
(05:17):
and I'll mention his name, Dan Orlovsky of ESPN, who
first had to deal with this, is that Dan had
already done a segment identifying how Justin fields went through reads,
went through progressions and made the place that needed to
be made and then he went on a show with
Pat McAfee and says, this is what I'm hearing from
(05:38):
clubs that Justin doesn't do this or he's this, And
I'm saying, wait a minute, you've already gone on air
and given your opinion based on your research about just
what this kid does, and now you're going to give
the blanket of anonymity to teams or personnel people who
potentially want Justin Fields to fall down the the draft
(06:00):
so that they haven't shot at him. And in the meantime,
what you were doing is attacking the character of this
young man. And look, it's a black man. There are
two things that that are so offensive and the two
two of the worst things you can say about a
black man is that he's lazy and that he's done.
And in essence, that's what you're giving these anonymous people,
(06:20):
personnel people the right to say about Justin Fields, even
though you know it not to be true. And that's
where I say, this isn't even about the personnel people.
To me, this is about the media representatives who are
putting this out there knowing that it's not true. So
that's my issue. And lastly, look, let's do this. Our
our guest today on the show is Warren Moon. Were
(06:42):
recently I asked Warren Moon for a piece that I
wrote whether or not we have moved past race being
a factor in the evaluation of the quarterback position. Let
me read this quote to you before we get to Warren,
and he said, we've reached a point with the masses
where race isn't as big an issue. But there are
people who are very uncomfortable with the fact that their
(07:03):
quarterback is African American and making all this money and
being endorsed the way they're being endorsed. There's always going
to be that certain percentage of our population that feels
that way because there's a large percentage of our population
that's racist and they don't want to see African Americans
in that position anyway. But for the most part, people
(07:24):
have accepted it. Well, I'll tell you this, Maybe people
have accepted it, but one thing I will never accept
is giving these personnel people the blanket of anonymity to
attack a young man's character. And so with that, Steve,
you know what, I think we just ought to get
right in the Warren Moon and let's hear what he
has to say on this topic and others. Yeah, we're
(07:52):
now joined by someone we know well, good friend of ours,
Hall of famer Warren Moon. Warren, how is everything going
with you? Man? I'm doing great, guys. How you guys
are doing. I've heard great things about your podcast, and
I'm honored to be able to get guest on there. Finally, well,
I just want to say people at home don't know
(08:13):
that we've had some technical issues. So I have to
praise Warren for his poise and his patients waiting on
me to get it right. So that's all the something
I learned a long time ago trying to play quarterback.
I gotta have patience, and it helped me today in
this process. Warren was like, I keep telling receiver to
(08:35):
make his break at twelve yards and he keeps on
breaking it off at nine. I'm sailing over his head.
You know, I'm just get it right. Some guys just
can't be taught, man. You know, this whole dog here
can't be taught to these new tricks. So anyway, I
appreciate your patience on a Warren no problem, guys. Tell
us what's going on with you? Yeah? Exactly? Wow, I
(08:57):
mean right now, I'm kind of visiting some family I had.
I have seven grand kids now, believe it or not.
So down in Houston over the weekend, one of my
grandsons just turned three years old. We had a huge
family uh birthday party for him, and then I came
on down to Memphis since I was down this side
of the country, to visit some more family in Memphis
(09:19):
because I haven't been able to really move around and
visit everybody because the pandemic. So I'm in Memphis right
now and then heading back to Seattle this week. But
I've been staying pretty busy doing a lot of a
lot of zoom type things. Um, you can't really do
any appearances anymore, so a lot of people do things
by zoom. I'm doing a lot of podcasts like your shows,
(09:41):
a lot of interviews on all this good quarterback stuff
that's going on in in our in our league, because
that seems to be the hot button um position of
everybody right now, that you've got to have a quarterback.
If you don't have a quarterback, then what are you
gonna do? So everything is about the quarterback in football
right now. And football is not a season sport anymore.
(10:03):
It's a year round sport that you talk about. I mean,
everybody's talking about free agency now, the draft is coming up.
Before you know it, it'll be O t s and
then you're back in training camp and we're back in
the season again. So that keeps me very very busy.
I'm not doing the broadcast anymore for the Seahawks, but
I'm thinking of maybe working for some other outlets here
(10:23):
this upcoming season. So you know, I still I have
my foundation. We're very very active. I have a golf
tournament coming up here in April for for the foundation
to raise money for some scholarships. So you know, a
lot of projects going on all that. That golf tournament.
I still haven't gotten the invite to that one. Yeah,
you have, you have, So you've got to kind of
(10:46):
be some sort of a celebrity. Hey man. You know,
you know again, folks out there, you don't know what's
going on between Warren and Gym. So this has been
happening before we turn the record button on, and I'm
sure we'll continue. Just he was walking into them. Man,
that's the story of my life or the story of
(11:06):
my life. Man, Hey, you said something interesting. I want
to ask you about where you said now football is
a year round thing. When do you think that transition
sort of occurred? And what was an off season like
for you back when you did play? You know, that's
a good question when it actually happened. I think the
NFL and the NFL Network has kind of created, um,
(11:27):
you know, just by making all these things huge events,
like the NFL Draft now is a three day, prime
time huge event. It might be even four days now,
I'm not even sure. Um. And then they've made free
agency this thing where the build up to it is
amazing and and uh, everybody wants to know where everybody's
gonna be going. So I think it's just the marketing
(11:49):
of the NFL, the NFL Network and how they've made
these events that used to always be there. They've always
been an event, but they just made it a bigger
event by the way they've marketed all these and so
so you've got free agency becomes a huge musent. You've
got the Draft becomes a huge event. Uh, and then
you've got the O t A s. I mean, they
(12:10):
have full time staffs at all these different camps once
the O t A start and they're doing they're doing
live broadcasts from there. So just just the way the
NFL is marketed their sport and made it where everybody
has to always stay in tune what's going on in
the NFL. I just think it's brilliant marketing. You know.
Tony Dungy made a point that that back when he
(12:32):
played and even coached during a period, they would get
like ten weeks off in the off season. Um, exactly,
back back when you were playing, when you got that
kind of time off, what would guys do? What was
that that time away like relative to what we see
today where it seems like they had no time off. Yeah,
you did some type of training. Of course, you wanted
(12:54):
to keep yourself in some type of shape. You never
wanted to get totally away from at least I know
I didn't, because I knew how hard it was to
get back if you let yourself just totally go. Um.
You also had your trainers would send you different workout
plans to work on because you're not gonna come into
the facility anytime soon. Um. And then you use that
time for family and for vacations and other things you
(13:15):
want to do. Some guys went back to school and
took classes or whatever, so you at least you had
some time to be like a normal person, uh, in
the early part of the off season. But that's kind
of gone away now, and that's one of the things
that kind of made me want to retire, believe it
or not. When I was with Kansas City, that's when
kind of the O t A s came into play,
where they wanted you to be there three days a week.
And it wasn't like it is now where you can't
(13:37):
come in until April. It was back then it was
in March. Early in March you could start those O
t A s. And here I was. I was living
away from Houston from my family as it was throughout
the season in Kansas City. So once the season was over,
I didn't want to have to come back to Kansas
City three days a week and and you know, go
over the fundamentals of playing quarterback. You know, I'm in
(13:57):
my twenty third year at that time. It's like, I
don't want to do at anymore. So that was one
of the things that made me want to retire, that
I didn't want to be away from my family anymore
in the off season because that was the only time
I really had to be with them full time. So Yeah,
it's become a full time sport, not only the way
they're they're marketing it, the way there, the way they're
selling it, but it also has become a little bit
more of a full time gig for for the players
(14:19):
as well, you know, one before we get in, before
we get into football real quick. I'm just curious if
you think that in some ways it being a full
time job now hurts the players in terms of transitioning
out of football when they're done that they don't have,
you know, during the off season, second jobs like players
back in the day had or those sorts of things.
(14:40):
Do you think it's a factor at all? In some
ways it is. I think in one way, the players
are making so much more money now that they don't
have to worry as much about those second career opportunities
if they really are smart with their money, because the
money that they're making now is just so much greater
than what we were making through those days where and
even before I played, even before or that guy has
(15:00):
had to have second careers. But now, if you're smart
with your money and you take care of it, you
should be able to be all right and be able
to pick and choose at least a couple of years
after you're done playing the game on what what it
is you really want to get involved in. You don't
have to be as involved while you're playing, but you
still have time to do that because of the way
you can go online and take classes and things like that.
(15:23):
It's not gonna be that that combersome to where you
can't do anything. But again, the money part of it
is the key that if you put that money away,
you can really have a chance to just pick and
choose what you want to do when you're done playing
the game. Yeah, I also think the NFL you talk
about a year round thing and Warrant and Jim. It
seems to me there's a lot more programs involved to
(15:45):
help players in terms of prepare if they want to
get into the broadcast, and there's a broadcast boot camp.
There's all types of things that could help them transition.
It's just a matter of because of the money, do
the players really want to take advantage of that, Because
as you don't war and even though you played so
deep into your career, by the time you finish, you
still have a lot of life left to live, and
(16:06):
whether financial or not, you don't want to sit on
your hands for the next forty five years of your existence,
and that's the key. You definitely don't want to do that,
but you also if you do well financially, you can
take your time and figure out what it is you
want to do next with that opportunities in life, because
if you're a player that can get to that second contract,
(16:28):
that's what they always talk about. Can you get to
that second contrary, that second contract should usually set you
up pretty good for for a good portion of your
life if you can get to that one. And then
when you retire, you can now take a year or
a year off maybe or take two years and go
back to school and maybe get another degree, whatever it
is you want to do because you have the financial
(16:48):
ability to do that and not have to worry or
panic about that part of your life. And then you
can pick what you want to do and move on.
And that's kind of what I was able to do
when I retired. Um, I had a has to just
sit back and kind of look and see what I
wanted to do it going forward, and then I took
my time and did it. Once did you live in Seattle?
I know you said no longer doing the broadcast. But
(17:08):
you're just so familiar with this team. Yeah, this stuff
going on with Russell Wilson and the Seahawks. Um, it's
funny because we've seen so many former players, you know,
Richard Sherman, Earl Thomas, so many these other guys, Michael Bennett,
Marshawn Lynch, and that end really great for them, and
there's always kind of a year brush fire before they
parted ways with the team. Where do you think this
(17:32):
is headed. I think it's kind of headed unfortunately in
the same direction. Um. I think right now it's almost
like a marriage that's that's starting to just have squabbles,
and um, they're squabbling about, you know, certain little issues,
whether it's past protection, whether it's talent. There's all these
little squabbles going on right now. And I think because
(17:52):
of Russell's contract situation, there's not a whole lot of
Seahawks can do as far as moving him somewhere else,
even if they wanted to. So I think he's definitely
there this year, Um, unless they just want to take
a hit and not become a really good football team
for a year or so. But I think that the
marriage is not gonna end very well, going down the road,
(18:12):
I think this squabble is going to turn into more
of a separation and then a divorce at some point,
and that usually happens with most most players anyway. You
just don't like it to happen um because of you know,
the two sides not getting along. But when a player
plays one one place, probably ten years or more, there's
a good opportunity that he's probably not gonna finish his
(18:34):
career there, Tom Brady being an exception, and some others.
But there's when I when I saw Joe Montana got
traded to the Kansas City Chiefs back when when he
was with the four Uniners, I said, anybody in this
league is expendable. And Joe wasn't really having a squabble
or anything. He just had another really good player behind
him waiting in the wings, and that that made him expendable.
(18:56):
You know the thing that's interesting about that Montana story,
I remember Eddie Bartelow told me he said, when all
that was going down, he brought Joe to his home
and he said to Joe, do you want to stay?
And he said, if you want to stay, I will
make it happen. And he said, Joe told him, no,
it's time to move on. And so basically it was
Joe's call at that point to go, I think because
(19:18):
he felt he didn't have the full support of the
head coach at that time, and so he moved on.
The thing that's curious to me about Russell is like,
even with the A B thing, they went after A
B hard last year, they made it over to him.
He chose to go to Tampa, So it wasn't like
they didn't attempt to bring a B in. And that's
(19:38):
worn sometimes when I hear players talking talking is if
they want to be a factor in personnel decisions, there
are things that go on that they don't understand. And
I don't know that Russell understands that A B made
his own decision a year ago on where to play.
So you're gonna hold that against the organization that a
(20:00):
player tells to go elsewhere. That's not on jonnath Snyder
and Pete Carroll. So what is that fine line or
that balancing point between what a player wants an impact
player like Russell, and what the team feels it's in
its best centrist. How do you balance that? Well? I
think if anything, you just kind of maybe give the
(20:20):
quarterback the respect and listen to his opinion. That doesn't
mean you have to do what he what he suggests.
I mean when I was with Houston, they used to
come to me all the time during training camp or
whenever it was and asked me my opinion about certain
receivers or a certain running back, or we're thinking about
bringing in this coach to you know, to coach this position.
What do you think? So I got asked my opinion
(20:41):
a lot about different things, and I gave my opinion,
but they still were gonna go ahead and make the
decision on what was best for the organization, and I
understood that. I just thought it was great that they
even included me in any of those decisions. I remember
when Jack Party was hired as our head coach. You know,
he was gonna bring in the run and shoot, and
they asked me my opinion on what I thought about
bringing in Jack and what I thought about running an
offense like that. I thought it would be pretty fun.
(21:04):
So I told him my opinions about it, and they
ended up hiring Jack. That they hiring because of me, No,
but they did get my opinion, which was which was great.
So I think that's all Russell can really ask for
is is if they're gonna ask his opinion about certain
things and there's a respect factor there that that they
they respect his opinion, But that doesn't mean he's going
(21:26):
to be the the the deciding factor and what they
end up doing, because like you said, it's gonna come
down to a lot of other factors that the player
is not even aware of, But especially when it comes
to a player, because you have to evaluate that player.
We don't know the history of that player. We don't
know what he might have been involved in off the field,
We don't know about any of those things unless you're
willing to sit there and do all that due diligence
(21:49):
on what what they do when they evaluate a player.
If you want to get involved in personnel decisions, and
you better be willing to sit in that office and
do all the work that it takes to know what
what what goes into uh goes into bringing in a player. Um,
whether it's the free agency, trade or whatever it might be.
Do they value Russell's opinion? Do you believe? I think
(22:10):
they do. But again, they know so much more than
what the player is gonna know. All we know is
I like this receiver. He's great, we have a good rapport,
we worked out together in the off season. I'd like
to have him on my football team. But there's so
much more that goes into bringing in a player than
just your relationship with So that's something that hopefully that
(22:31):
Russell understand the rest of it. Yeah, what is it
gonna be? Protection? Is it gonna be a B? I mean,
we're hearing a whole lot of stuff from Russell, But Warren,
you you just told the story about how Houston's leadership
came to you for your opinion and they seem to
value your opinion even though it may not have made
the decisions based on your opinion. Sounds a lot like
(22:51):
what's going on with that franchise right now. I'm saying
that oozing with sarcasm. By the way. You're talking about
with Houston, Yes, Houston, Yes, not the Titans. I'm talking
about the club in Houston used the problem with Houston.
They didn't they didn't let DeShawn know what they were doing,
which and they're they're the ones that suggested that we
(23:14):
would let you know what we're doing, and then they
didn't let him know what he's doing what you were
doing it He ended up finding out I guess on
the on the internet. You know, that they hired an
offensive coordinator, that they hired, a new general manager that
they hired. I don't know. I don't know about the
coach part of it, but uh yeah, he just felt like,
(23:34):
I'm sure you told me you want to be involved
in the process, but then you don't involve me in
the process to go along with all the other things
that had gone on in the organization prior to that,
whether it was you know, their stance on social justice,
getting rid of all these great players over the years
that has really depleted the football team. There's a lot
of reasons why Deshaun is unhappy with that organization. You know, Warren,
(23:58):
how much does that that impact a player? And I mean,
let me phrase it this way. We're seeing players speak
out a lot more yea in today's game than we
saw when you did play. Why do you think that
is and do you think that's a good thing for
the league at this point? I think it's a great thing.
And I think the reason why is because of their
(24:19):
social media platforms that we didn't have when I played.
Back when when I played, you did an interview, and
you hope that interview, whether it had any substance to
it or not, wasn't edited down to a point or
whatever was was actually put out there, um, was what
you actually said or what the meaning of what you
were trying to get across. Today, because of social media,
(24:40):
these guys have their own platforms. Everything they say is organic.
It goes right out to either their fan base or
anybody else that wants to pick it up. And you
understand exactly where that player is coming from because it's
what he said out of his mouth, not edited interview
or anything like that. So I think it's great that
they have these platforms, and I also think it's the
(25:00):
better that they're using these platforms to to voice their
opinions on certain things. So yeah, I think it's good
all the way around. As long as you make sure
what you say can't bring it back. You know, you
better be sure before, like uh, coach says, don't press
in until you're really sure about what what it is
that you're putting out there, because once it's out in
the universe, it doesn't go away. Yeah, it's Coach Edwards
(25:23):
her medworths. Any time you get her medwords dropping here,
we're good, you know what, or and I'm curious, though,
would you have been an active social media user back
during your playing days, I would have to a certain point.
I just didn't feel like, especially with the number of
guys that I had during the time that I played
at my position being African American, that I that I
(25:45):
had the cache to do that. Um. I talked a
lot about the position in general and what I thought
needed to be improved at the quarterback position. I talked
more on that subject than I did on maybe social
justice and things like that. But I probably would have
been a little bit more vocal if I would have
known that whatever it is I wanted to say would
(26:07):
would be put out there as opposed to how things
can be changed around or or or edited to where
it doesn't come off the way you wanted to come off.
So yeah, I would have been much more vocal if
I had the platforms that these players have today, but
I don't I would have. I would probably would have
took it to the point some of these guys were
able to do it today because I think they have
a lot more power now than we did back when
(26:28):
I played. That's an interesting point warrant because when you played,
obviously there were very few African American quarterbacks past exactly
this past season, I think we had ten starting black quarterbacks.
And I'm wondering, how did that influence or or how
did that effect what you were willing to speak about
(26:51):
publicly during that time versus what you might have been
willing to speak on in today's climate. YEA, See, the
I was always conscious of is I didn't want to
make any mistakes that we're going to hurt the next
group of guys. As far as me coming into the league,
the amount of money that I was played, being paid,
(27:11):
all the different things that went along with it. And
then we had Doug who who emerged and all of
a sudden became the NF became the Super Bowl, m
v P and that that was that was or something
like that. So uh, I knew I could say certain things,
but I also knew that I didn't want to rock
the boat too much to where it hurt that next
(27:32):
generation of guys, because I was very conscious of being
able to help that next group of guys get more
opportunities to come in and play the game. And I
felt once those guys get got those opportunities, and once
they got a chance to get on the field and
start showing what they could do, then that would kind
of increase our confidence, increase, uh, the things that we
(27:54):
could say as players. But if you only had one
or two at the time. When I came into the
league and I teen four, I was the only African
American starting quarterback and the only only other one in
the league was my third team quarterback, Brian Ransom from
Tennessee State. Doug was in the USFL, Vince Evans was
in the USFL. No, those guys were in the league
at that time. So I was treading really really thin
(28:17):
water at that time to make sure that I didn't
do anything wrong, uh, to to hurt the process for
other guys coming along. Did you feel that was more
of a burden or or just a responsibility? Both a
burden and a responsibility, but a burden and I was
willing to take because I knew what I had gone
through to get to that point anyway, So I wasn't
(28:38):
gonna let anything destroy that once I got into the league.
I was just gonna make sure that that I carried
myself well, that I did everything with class that I uh,
that I made sure I played well on the field
and in all those different things. So, um, yeah, it
was something I knew I had to carry because I
(28:58):
mean people would tell me at everywhere I went, everywhere
I traveled around the country, people saw me, it's like, Warren,
you gotta represent us. You know, you gotta represent us.
I heard that everywhere, not just in Houston. So it
was something I was very very conscious of that that
I knew I was at guinea pig out there that
had to do things right. That's disresponsibility, it is. I mean,
(29:21):
just hearing you say that. You can talk about Doug
in the USFL. Why'd he end up in the USFL
with the Oklahoma Outlaws because he wanted a legitimate contract
with the Buccaneers, They're like, we're not paying you even
though he'd gotten them to the playoffs when they were
the worst team in NFL history. And that kind of
leads to another point. You know, you you having that
that burden responsibility and forwarding it to today's game and
(29:43):
not even talking about the color of the quarterback. We
saw Carson Wentz leverage himself out of Philadelphia. Maybe Deshaun
can leverage himself out of Houston. What about the quarterbacks
using that power at that position, saying you're not doing
it right, I don't want to be you a part
of this. Get me out of here now. Yeah, there
are certain guys that that have the ability to do that,
(30:05):
and um, you know, have the cachet to do that. Um. Again,
I didn't feel like I had that at that particular time.
But if you look at what's going on with these
guys now, you look at des Sean who just signed
a hundred and forty fifty million dollar contract. You look
at Patrick Mahomes a half billion dollar contract. You look
at what some of these guys are gonna sign for,
Dak Dak Prescott, what he just signed for. I mean,
(30:29):
they have that power, um with the guarantees and their
contract which we didn't have. Then you gotta remember when
I came in lead, we didn't have free agency. Free
agency didn't come into what. Yeah, so it was a
while before you felt like you had even the power
to move teams or less. Uh you know, say something
(30:49):
about trying to get out of somewhere and go go
to another place. But because these guys have that type
of financial uh stability behind them, Um, they have their
own social networks now, so they can say what they
want to say and they can flex their most is
a little bit more and I'm glad that they're doing it.
That's that's that's the key is you're not just sitting
there with all this power and not doing anything with it.
(31:12):
You're actually using it. You know, Warren, you and I
had this conversation before, and I'll bring it up again
for for the audience on the podcast. And I ask
you late last year we've got we had ten black
quarterbacks or quarterbacks who were black who were starting this year,
and I ask you, if we've moved past the point
of race and the evaluation of quarterbacks. I want you
(31:35):
to tell the audience what you think about that. What's
your response was to that. I think for the most part,
um guys are are being evaluated off of it. They
can play or not. But there are still there's still
some thinking, there's some old thinking that if you don't
we had a certain a certain box, if you don't
(31:58):
look a certain way, if you're not it's a certain way,
then you're not going to be a quarterback in this league,
that you should change positions. And I use a guy
who was just voted m VP of the league just
two years ago. Lamar Jackson is my example. Uh, they
were still highly respected general managers and scouting people that
(32:19):
were saying he should change positions and move moved to
another position. I'm like, what are you kidding me? So yeah,
I think for the most part it has changed, but
still some old guard thinking there that if you don't
look a certain style or a certain way, you should
be in another position. When do you think the transition
(32:40):
began that it was less of a factor mm hmmm.
I think after maybe the Donovan McNabb kind of classic
came in with Dante co Pepper and all those guys.
Then Michael Vick came in there and he became, you
know what, the first hundred million dollar player in the NFL.
(33:03):
H highly endorsed a guy. I think that's when they
started to buy in that this different style of play
could work in the National Football League and African Americans
were the ones kind of who could play that style
the best, and and that's where it started to change.
I think during during those it would be the late
nineties into early two thousand, I think that's when you
(33:23):
really started to take notice that these guys can play
the position at a high level, and we're gonna start
drafting them that way. And we're also gonna start maybe
drafting some guys in the third or fourth round and
developing them for the future. And that's even bigger than
the guys that you know can probably play as opposed
to putting us some putting, some time and some effort
(33:44):
and some development into maybe a younger guy who may
might not be ready to play right now, but can
be your guy two or three years down the road. Well,
you see Russell Wilson third round draft pick, Dak Prescott
fourth round draftic even guys like Jacobe Brissett, you know
who are who are developmental players. Um, I'm going in
and playing. So you know all that note and maybe
you know you said there's show some gard thinking maybe
(34:05):
the guy has to change the positions, but I think
part of the transition, and just to get your thoughts
on it also seems to be the fact that some
of these coaches, especially using college ideology a lot of
example from HBCU offenses, are are being more open minded.
You know, Greg Roman and OC doing some things to
play to Lamar Jackson's running ability. Yet alone other teams
(34:27):
looking at other quarterbacks like a Dak Prescott or Russell Wilson,
catering their offenses to their strengths to do. Do you
believe that more there's more coaching open minded this in flexibility,
then you know that than in the past, which is
saying we can play this guy, we just have to
adjust how we think instead of making them adjust a
position they play. Yeah, that's one of the biggest things
I think I've seen in the NFL over the last
(34:49):
ten years, fifteen years, maybe because they've adapted what these
young guys are doing not only what they're doing in college,
but it goes all the way back to what they're
starting to do in middle school and junior and high
in high well, um, they're becoming different types of quarterbacks.
They're becoming the read option type quarterbacks. Uh, those are
the things that these kids are learning in these camps.
(35:10):
So this that's the stuff that they're learning with their
quarterback camps, I mean, their quarterback coaches that are coaching
them those types of techniques. So if these kids have
been learning this maybe since they were twelve, thirteen, fourteen
years old, all the way through college, it makes so
much sense that the NFL adapts what they've been doing,
take what they do best, and adapted into your offense
in the National Football League. One, you're gonna have more
(35:33):
success out of that guy because learning curve and then
to um it's just something that that makes it easier
for him to understand and you can get him going
at an earlier, earlier time in his career because they're
asking these these first round guys to play right away,
So what better way to get them to play fast
(35:54):
than to do what they've been doing all their lives.
So that's been one of the smartest thing a lot
of these NFL coaches have done over the last ten
years or so is adapt what these guys are doing
in college and bringing it into the league and not
being so so hard hitted that you're gonna make a
guy you're trying to put a square pig into a
round hole by making a guy learn this this completely
(36:14):
new offense that he's never seen before, but you want
him to be ready for week one of the seasons.
When we see that like Josh Josh, I'm sorry, Jim
Josh Allen at this point of his career makes such
a seismic bump. I mean, he had higher completion percentages everything,
and he's threw the ball a hundred and ten times
more than did the previous year. I mean, what do
(36:35):
you attribute something like that too? Because again, when you
were coming up, it would take three years before a
guy would get to be the starter and be ready,
and all of a sudden in his third year he
makes that significant bump, And what do you what do
you attribute something like that because we don't see it often. Again,
I think it's Brian Dabo, their offensive coordinator, seeing what
(36:56):
Josh Allen does best, having watched him for his first
couple of years. Those are the things that they just
continued to keep grinding into him. You're bringing us to
find Diggs who just increases their their receiving corps to
another level. And then the hard work that uh that
Josh is put in. He put in a tremendous amount
of work, uh, you know, working with his quarterback coach
(37:17):
in the off season and and just perfecting his technique
because he wasn't a very fundamentally sound quarterback coming out
of coming out of college, but he's really worked on
his footwork. He was almost like this big piece of
of of clay and you just needed to be able
to mold him into what you wanted to mold him into,
because he had everything that you wanted work ethic, big, strong, athletic,
(37:39):
great arm, all those things, and now you just had
to make him into player. But he had to be
wanting to put it in the work and he did that.
So that's the reason why this guy had so much
success over the last two or three years. You see
whether sir as he frozen frozen. So so here's one
for you, warrant. So when we look at some of
these first and second round draft pick, you know, we
(38:01):
were talking to Arizona Cardinals GM Steve come about hitting right,
but then it Jamis went to Marcus Mario at the
one and two didn't get the big deals on different teams. Now,
Jared Goff and Carson Wentz one and two a year
later they got paid and they're on different teams. But
if these guys were there their team's franchise quarterbacks, they
wouldn't have been moved there. Let go or a lot
(38:23):
of seak unemployment with with the draft coming up and
we're talking about Trevor Lawrence and Jack Wilson and Justin
Fields and guys like that. What about nailing. I mean
we talked about how it's it's an imperfect science drafting,
but then we also we were just talking about right
here coaching to these guys strengths. I mean, how much
does that have to mesh for some talented players, because
(38:45):
we know Jamis and Marcus are talented, but how much
does that have to mesh to really allow them to
shine and for these teams to get the return on
investment of that first or second overall pick. Well, you
want all those things to come together. You want to
create an offense that this young quarterback whatever whoever it
is Jamis or Marcus or whoever the young quarterback is
(39:07):
coming in I can adapt to and feel comfortable. So
if you can somehow around these guys with with with
good talent and then also bringing an offense, is gonna
make this quarterback feel much more comfortable and they have
a chance to be a competitive football team earlier. Oh
not noe, Then do you think to a tongue of
Voloa comes into the season with the clean slate in
(39:29):
terms of evaluation, with everything he had to go through,
you know, rehabbing, no offseason coming in when he did
not having a ton of weapons around, even though he
was on a ten win football team, right, And I
think he'll be better this year one because he doesn't
have to worry about rehabbing in an off season. He
doesn't have to worry about the psychological part of can
I go out here and play and do the things
(39:50):
that I'm capable of doing, knowing I'm just coming off
of this a devastating type of hip injury that that
he was going through, and then and then going to
a team, like you said, it didn't have a lot
of explosive weapons for him to work with. He's used
to having those type of weapons in Alabama that he
could just pick and choose where he wanted to go
with the football. So it's it's a big difference when
now you have to raise everybody's level of play around
(40:12):
you as a quarterback, but you're still kind of unsure
of yourself. So I think he will be better, and
I think he'll be judged. He'll have a chance to
be judged more fairly this year, having had an off season,
all right, one before we let you get out of
here because uh, Jim's internet has crashed. We'll finish up
on on this one right here. I had to tell
(40:33):
you that because we started this off with you taking
a shot at him, he's not here to defend himself.
So um, and you know what, I knew he would
somehow not be on the air by the time this
show was earlier and not have any rebuttal there you go,
all right, and well real quick to also, you know
(40:53):
you talked about you're traveling a little bit. We see
the country opening up a little bit as we're getting
vaccines and things like that. To you move moving forward
over these next couple of months and approaching the season
and some of the the things you'd like to do, getting
up to Canton for the Hall of Fame. Um, what
you always do? I mean, how is this living through
the past year Ben for you and now that we're
starting to see a little bit of sunshine come over
(41:15):
the horizon, just kind of your expectations in the exhale
that we're all gonna be able to do hopefully in
the next couple of months. Yeah, it's been a tremendous
burn on everybody, There's no question about it. And uh,
you know, I learned a whole lot about myself as
far as patients again being tested this year, because I'm
a guy that year on the move all the time.
(41:35):
A lot of what I do for a living had
to do with getting on airplanes and going to different
cities and and you know, speaking with different people and
doing different things like that. All that came to a hole.
I was also worried about my family because I have
a fourteen year old who's involved in sports, going to
school every day, and being around his friends. All that
was taken away from him. I have grandkids that are
(41:57):
going through the same thing. So those were my biggest serns.
How do I how do I keep my young kids
motivated as far as wanting to learn, being able to
still get their exercise, and be able to integrate with
their friends, because that's a big part of being young,
is that social that social involvement. And and for me,
(42:20):
you know, I'm an older guy. I've lived a really,
really good life, so it's not like I'm just having
everything snatched away from me. But but it was an
adjustment for me as well. But now that I've had
my vaccine, I'm starting to get out and travel a
little bit more. I just hope people continue to still
keep being safe because we're not out of this thing,
yet continue to keep wearing your mask, continue to keep
(42:42):
being social distance if you can, and then try and
get your fascination if you can't, because I think it's
something that everybody should strive to get. Um A lot
of people are really hesitant about it, but I've had
minea and having had any problems with it, and I
think it's being better off if we can get more
people were fascinated, so we can get to this herd
(43:02):
immunity and we can start getting back to normal, to
start doing some of the things that we used to
do as people that that kept us happy. I won't you.
You can't get off easy gyms back. Any technology caught
up to him. He's back. I am now on my
cell phone, neither my laptop nor my PC or working
(43:24):
with the links, so I hit the cell phone up,
so I'm being resourceful. I know Warren probably talked about
me pretty bad while I was gone, but that's okay.
What is that bad? It was? It was tempering. And
I'm gonna do him a senior box, and it's gonna
have a lot of technology equipment in it, lighting, androphones
and all kinds of things, and it's gonna also have
(43:44):
instructions on how to use all those things so for
your next against they won't have to go through this.
I feel for you, but you know what I wanna,
I'm gonna pay some respect here, um, even though you've
done that. But Warren, I'm sure you've heard this before.
You threw the pretty spiral I've ever seen in my life.
(44:09):
Where when did you have that right away? Or was
there someone that helped you develop that? Just a lot
of practice, Jim. And it started when I was a
young young kid, um, you know, twelve thirteen years old,
just in my in my street. Um. I lived right
in a corner, so I had four street lights right
in the intersection. Uh. And that allowed me to stay
(44:30):
out a little bit later than than other kids, just
throw the football and I didn't come in the house.
I could just throw all night. I had a buddy
down the street by the name of Hector Sims, and
he was standing there and catch that ball for me
until until I just couldn't throw it anymore, until my
mother kept yelling for me to come into house at night.
So it was just a lot of practice, um. And
(44:52):
then when I got into the league, had a lot
to do with my fingernail, believe it or not, on
my forefinger, and people have talked about that with me.
If my fingernail was the right limp, that ball spun
as pretty as any ball that you've ever seen be thrown.
And and uh, I've had different times and games where
I've called time out and went over to the sideline.
I asked for a fingernail file to found my nail
(45:13):
down because my ball wasn't spending the way I wanted
it too. So you are a kidding, No, you're kidding
so far. I went with this thing and and asked,
Johnny rattled that story one day, He'll tell you. Do
you try to break your finger? He called? I called
the time out on the drive We're going down against
Miami and we were we were coming from behind, and
(45:35):
I called time out, and everybody's panicking, what's wrong? What?
What's wrong? What's going on? Why is it coming over here?
And I walked over to the trainer and said, go
get that fingernail file for me, and I found the
fingernail down and ended up throwing the winning touchdown past
the quadria issuel to win the football games. My forefinger
on my passing hand. But that's the finger that would
(45:57):
make that ball spinning. If you look at the balls
it I would throw, you would see you would see uh,
scratches in the ball from from my fingernail from how
I throw the football. Wow, what a story. I did
not know. I didn't know that. So tell me this.
Did you play baseball? Did you pitch? But I always
felt like I was gonna wreck my arm for football,
(46:18):
so I didn't pitch a lot, but I played more shortstop,
but I did pitch something. Yeah, let me be clear.
The four finger is that the index finger, next finger
on my passing and that's where the ball comes off
when you get that flick of the football and ana
you would actually hear the sound come up of it.
Would you could hear my fingernails slice it into the ball.
(46:41):
You know, they would probably find you today for following
on the sideline. Hurt me. Now they can't fingernail gate.
Fingernail gate find We're gonna find Warren Moon or whatever
club he's with. Warren. I'm curious, how many yards would
you have thrown for in today's game? Yeah, Jim, Jim,
we don't even want to talk about how many yards
(47:03):
with Marino throw for? How many yards ailway throw for
how many yards? With you know, all the guys that
I played with during my era. I mean they're all
in the Hall of Fame basically, and and all those
guys could spend it. So, yeah, we would have had
a field day with the way that the way the
game is played right now in the rules, somebody's reprobably
still be playing because you can't touch nobody. Well, I
(47:25):
wanted to ask you, as a Hall of Famer, all
of these quarterbacks are gonna put up numbers now, yeah,
so how do you how do you differentiate them when
it comes to say the Hall of Fame, because I
get so tired of hearing people say the minute of
quarterback retires, he's a Hall of Famer. Look at where
he ranks on this list in terms of passing yards
or whatever. From your standpoint, how do you separate them?
(47:49):
That's a good question, and that's something you as one
of the selectors who are gonna have to figure out
because the game is going to continue to keep evolving.
And uh, I don't know how much further it's gonna
ago now than it than it has with the passing game,
because it seems like it's it's almost as far as
it can go, as far as what these guys are
being asked to do. At some point, who knows, maybe
(48:11):
the trend will go back to running the football. I
don't know, because this game has tended to be a
game of trends where running backs are dominant and all
of a sudden, quarterback and passing becomes dominant, and then
it might go back to running backs. But I don't
think so because of the way that the rules are
right now. So that's something you guys have to figure out. Uh.
You can't just go by, you know, what a guy's
(48:33):
yards are anymore. And I think that's why Super Bowls
and things like that, it becomes so much more important
now than they ever have before. Uh, In evaluating whether
quarterbacks should go to the ProFootball of Fame, because the
numbers they're gonna all have big numbers, you're gonna have
to figure out other things or other reasons why you
evaluate them for the Hall of Fame. Do you think
we should place a greater importance on postseason numbers? Regularcies
(48:57):
and numbers? Probably you have doesn't have to necessarily be
Super Bowls because only one guy can win a Super
Pride every year. But definitely you know what he's done
in that second season, because there's gonna be guys from
bad football teams that are gonna throw for a lot
of yards because they're behind all the time. So they're
they're gonna be throwing the football just to hit in
the game, and so they they might throw for three
(49:19):
fifty four hundred yards every week, but they're not winning
those games because they're just playing from behind. So you
can look at what was going on with Dak Prescott, uh,
with his with his early season last year. He was
throwing for a ton of yards, but they weren't winning
because he's playing from behind all the time. So that's
the perfect example of that um And at the end
(49:41):
of the season, okay, he might have forty five hundred
yards or close to five thousand yards, but he only
won five six games. So I think the second season
is gonna be a little bit more important going forward
for quarterbacks. All right, warn hey man, we appreciate you
taking the time. We know you got a bunch to
eat the bird to catch. Well, I just wanna first
of all say thank you guys for having me on
(50:02):
the show. I have tremendous respect for both of you
and what you've been doing for the league for a
number of years. I've known you both for a long time.
Appreciate you, Appreciate you. Appreciate you guys. Keep doing what
you're doing, keep educating, and keep keeping people on top
of what they're what they're supposed to be doing, because
you gotta do a great job without keeping people accountable. Well,
(50:23):
I really appreciate you, Bro. Thank you Bro. Well, Fortunately,
Steve my my internet is working better today than it
did on that morning with Warren. But but let me
get back to this. You know, since we're getting so
(50:44):
close to the draft. You know, the reason it's so
fascinating to me about whether or not race is still
a factor in the evaluation of the quarterback position is
because you have to understand the history of this league,
and I think sometimes people forget that from thirty four
to forty six there was an informal ban on blacks
being allowed in the NFL, so we weren't even allowed
(51:06):
to play, And after that there was essentially ostensibly a
ban on blacks playing the quarterback position because it was
felt either we weren't smart enough or we didn't have
the qualities to lead a team. But to say we
have not made progress would be foolish. From this standpoint,
three of the last six league MVPs have been quarterbacks
(51:27):
who happened to be black. Five of the last fifteen
quarterbacks who were drafted number one overall were persons of color,
and each of the last two passing yards leader were
African American. So from that standpoint, we've made progress. Even
looking at the draft, in the ten drafts from OH.
One to six, of the quarterbacks selected in the first
(51:50):
round were black. That's over the last ten drafts, eleven
of the thirty two quarterbacks taken in the first round
were black. That thirty four point four. So there has
been improvement in that way. But I don't think we
can ever forget that. It was only a few years
ago that Bill Pollian, who was a Hall of Famer,
said that Lamar Jackson should change positions coming into the NFL. So,
(52:14):
to me, race remains a factor in this and that's
why it's so particularly offensive to me. What's happening to
justin fields at this point. Yeah, you know, you hate
hearing it, but look, you heard it when he came
out of hig school. Because remember when he came out,
he was ahead of Trevor Lawrence. He was the top
rated quarterback, Trevor Lawrence with the Clemps and Justin Fields
with the Georgia to start out with, and he was
(52:34):
behind Jake from at Georgia, and so he didn't get
to start right away. He came in a lot of
gimmick packages. So that kind of stereotype narrative, the whole
Randall Cunningham substitution type narrative was already starting to be drawn.
Then he goes to Ohio State kills it. I mean,
it just has a great career. So then you're starting
to hear, oh, you have an Ohio State quarterbacks don't
(52:57):
do well in the NFL. Well, less two turns things around.
You know, Alabama quarterbacks haven't done great in the NFL either,
yet we're talking about Mac Jones possibly on his highest three.
So you know, there there's just all kinds of things
here and there that you know, we just have to
do better. Jimmy glad to point, we have to do
better as as messengers of the media and people who
have relationships with with coaches and personnel directors a disseminating
(53:19):
information and presend to get in context. You know, and
I think you know, you brought up down our lost key.
He did show the context of how Justin Fields reads
the field, you know, and that's what was so disappointing, Steah,
That's what was so disappointing. He contradicted all of that
in the segment he did for NFL. I'm sorry for ESPN.
He contradicted all of it based on his own research
(53:42):
and study. So then to turn around and say, well,
this is what I'm hearing from personnel people and not
have to identify those personnel people and why they might
say something negative about Justin Fields was just disappointing to me.
Who do you trust, Dan? Do you trust your personal
evaluation of this? It? Are you trusting these personnel people
(54:02):
who have a vested interests to lie to you potentially
about in terms of saying negative things about Justin Fields?
And that's what bothers me here. Look, I think people
have a right to their opinion. If you think Justin
Fields is lazy or you think he can't go through reprogressions,
you're entitled to say that. But at this point, put
your name on it. That's all I ask. If you
(54:23):
believe that, put your name on it. I don't believe
you should be allowed to say things like that negative,
negatively knowing the larger implications of what it means for
a young black man to have those labels attached to him.
And if you have the antid intel, if you're someone
to know he's the last one in, the first one out,
you know, put your name on it because I gotta.
I'll tell you what there's about. He's probably got about
(54:44):
seventy five eighty five teammates who can give you the intel.
Some of them are coming on in the draft. So
these so these teams speaks all of these guys, you know,
so the team, the teams know the real deal. Again,
So that's what we have to do a better job
of e sseminating information the media as well. Speaking of
disseminating information, uh, you know, we we want to thank
(55:07):
everyone who has joined us here on the Huddle Flow podcast.
We've grown, we've delivered, we've served a cause, we've generated
more causes, had some great conversations and interviews on here.
We want to think all of our guests who have
come on. But Jim I and Thomas Warren, our producer,
we're gonna ready take a little bit of a breather. Good,
we gotta we gotta take some downtime. We're gonna go
(55:28):
on hiatus. So while we're out for the next couple
of weeks, please listen to some of the archived podcast
that we have on Spotify and iTunes or wherever you
get your podcasts, and go back and listen to some
of the great interviews that we've had to see you know,
where we started, where we've come from, and just how
some of the great information even from people like Chuck
d you know, James Lopez and Solo, Dad O'Brien and
(55:50):
on football people you know, Jamal Hill, Carry Champion that
was fun and Kimberly Martin people like that. Listen to
some of the things that were said and you can back. Wow.
I mean there's a lot of foreshadowing, a lot of
good information there, um and really enjoy that, you know,
because Jim and I, you know, we're we'll be back
in a little bit with more information to show. You know,
(56:10):
we're we're huddling. Flow is headed into the into the
off season to the next season. But yeah, you know
the brother, the brother's got to take a breathe, right, Jim, Absolutely,
So it's it's been uh, these last twelve months or
last year has been a grind man and there has
not been a break. I know you snuck away for
a minute for a couple of days here and there.
For me, I haven't been able to do that yet.
(56:32):
So my house has been on lockdown. I have not
been able to get out. But I got my first
COVID shot. I'm waiting on that second one, and when
that hits, you might not find me again. See, so
you know, I definitely need to get out here. I
got my second shot coming to I have. I have
(56:53):
my uh last Monday. So um, it's it's everyone, you know,
if you can't get get your shot, let's let's get
the stuff knocked out so we can get back to
doing what we want to do. And on that no gym,
we're gonna do what we want to do. So why
don't you take why don't you take us home and
take us to Grandma's and for a couple of other
(57:14):
relatives to make them back for a minute. We we again,
and we mean this sincerely. We want to thank you
all for listening. We want to thank you for subscribing
to the podcast. We want you to leave us your comments,
your thoughts, let us know who you want to hear from,
what you want to hear about. In that way we
(57:36):
can continue to give you more of what you're punking for.
That's right. Well, again, we appreciate everybody so much, especially
our guests who have come on, and the teams in
the in the in the booking people who have helped
us get some of these guests on, and and just
you listeners for growing, for growing with us and just
kind of giving us a lane that we've helped discover
(57:59):
you know ourselves. So you guys, we Jim and I
have driven a card in a certain way and you
guys are taking a ride with us and and we
we we hope to be back in a little bit,
uh to give you a little bit more. And for
our producer Thomas Warren, who has folks, he has busted
his ask. Okay you know Thomas Warren r H you
brother has has done so much to to get this going,
(58:22):
so he needs that breather too. But for Thomas, Jim
and me and into it sponsored the show that probably
makes a turbo tax ment and quick books, we are
the h you mob and we are out
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