April 25, 2025 • 36 mins
On the latest Move the Sticks podcast, Bucky Brooks and Mike Yam recap all the action from Day 1 of the 2025 NFL Draft, highlighting the biggest winners and surprises. The guys react to the Giants making a bold move back into the first round to draft quarterback Jaxson Dart and debate what it means for their future. They discuss the Cowboys selecting a guard in the first round and why there are no more excuses for the offense after drafting O-linemen in three consecutive years.
Plus, the Packers finally break their first-round WR drought dating back to 2002, and the Falcons double down on edge rushers with an aggressive trade up to No. 26. The conversation then shifts to quarterback value as they discuss whether Jalen Milroe and Tyler Shough could come off the board before Shedeur Sanders, and where Shedeur might be the best fit.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
And now Move the Sticks with Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Welcome to Move the Sticks. I am Bucky Brooks and
my man Mike Yam, who is sitting in for DJ.
We just hosted how many hours of coverage, like almost
five hours of coverage, wars of coverage, and we saw
the first round and we're gonna get into everything that
we saw in the first round. We're gonna talk about
the quarterback sh Dr Sanders, who is on the outside
(00:27):
looking in. Uh, but let's get into it. It's time
for Hot or Not brought to you by Saby Hot
Cloud Storage Yam or overall thoughts on the first round.
I just got to get your take on.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Okay, So can we just rewind for a second. First
of all, I'm sitting in for DJ, so there's automatically
I'm like, what are we doing right now? Then I
find out I'm working with you, so obviously I'm excited
because I get to yeah, but then it's taking another level.
I'm I'm used to running point yeah, I just get
out of the off the wall. We put the headsets
on Bucks like, Yo, I got you. I said, oh, okay, okay,
(00:58):
I'll step back here. This is awesome. Look, you and
I were doing mock draft live on NFL Network for
a few weeks. So the fact that we get this
first round and we get to actually see how it
plays out and unfold, there wasn't a huge surprise. I
think clearly the trades. I thought it was gonna be
relatively quiet. I didn't think you could be a ton
of splashes, and I do think in the scope when
you compare it to previous years, like there weren't really
(01:21):
a ton of trades. But we saw aggressive moves, which
I like the teams that decided to go and move up,
like the Jacks, a team that you know really well
because you're part of that radio broadcast. They said, look,
we're gonna take a swing. We're gonna go and get
Travis Hunter, and I know you love him. But then
on top of that, the Giants and the Falcons ATL
was a little bit of a surprise. But I love
what they did because they took two big swings on
(01:42):
the defensive side and when they've had some issues, I
love that try to get some dudes that can get
after the quarterback. And then the Giants, you know, I yeah,
you rock.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
With the Giants. So let's talk about all the trades,
like right off the top, the Jacksonman Jaguars moving from
five to two to get Travis Hunter. The thing about
the Travis Hunter pick is and talking to people in
the building, they say, like the three Jews that were
on their board that were really covenant, it was Travis Hunter,
it was Asking Gent and then it was Ted McMillan.
That was the way that they saw, like offensively, they
(02:13):
wanted to add somebody with some splash, some bizazz to
that offense for them to make the move to get
Travis Hunter. One, it tells me that Liam Coin and
James glaston are all in on trying to make this
team better in a hurry. Two. They talked about James
glastone and talked about having the intangible qualities if you
get the players that the rite intangible to the culture
in the locker room changes organically because you're bringing the
(02:35):
right people in and whatever. Well, we know Travis Hunter.
He is about football, he's about fishing. He is all ball,
all the time, terrific player and then a unique talent
as a two way player. So I'm just curious on
how that's going to work for them in terms of
what is the plan? But then the trades and the
reason I'm gonna go to the Giants before we go
to the Falcons is I'm looking at Abdull Carter at
(02:57):
three and when they made the move to get Abdul
cart I'm like, okay, well, that play to their identity
when they've been at their best. The D line kind
of sets the tone. We saw them knock off the
Patriots twice because their D line was so dominant, like
it worked. But then the question is why they can
get a quarterback. If they do get a quarterback, who's
going to be the quarterback? So they trade back in
(03:17):
they get into twenty five, they get Jackson Dart and look,
Jackson Dart's name has been popping up as been a
first round that debt was not a question, but Jackson
dark going Overshowder Sanders as the preferred pick for the Giants.
That is the conversation that we'll have over the next
few years.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Okay, So there's a lot to unpack on what you
just said. I want to circle back on the Giants
for a moment, but I think you have this experience
that I think needs to be shared here. Obviously as
a scout. You've been in a lot of these draft rooms,
You've done the talent evaluation. You know what these conversations are. Like,
I talk to a lot of fans and they'll say, oh,
first round guy, Not every team has a first round
grade on all thirty two players. And I think what
(03:56):
you just said about the Jacks is fascinating because you said,
who's on the board that they really like, Like Travis
Hunter was one of those guys to Max and then
jenty right and whoever whatever that order is. I don't
know if there's I don't know thirty one other teams
that would have had it necessarily lay out like that.
And the reality is, like, I just think it's really
important to have and set that distinction because Teed McMillan's
(04:18):
a great example. I hadn't heard his name as one
of these eleaite players, and yet you're telling me the
Jags had him.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
The Jacks had him right there. So it's funny, right
because when it played out, and this kind of tells
you about the entire process, because the way that the
process started, Ted McMillan was the name that we had
talked about up in the top five. Sure, the entire
time when those mock drafts came out early, Ted McMillan's
name was always dotted in the top ten. Then it
kind of fell out, and then it was a conversation like, hey,
he might not be wide receiver one because I wasn't
(04:44):
including Travis Hunter's wide receiver one, so oh, maybe you
know somebody else is there. And then law and behold,
the Jaguars get their guy in Travis Hunter, asking jend
comes off the board at six, and then Tied McMillan
comes off the board at eight. And so when we
talk about the Jaguars having their board rank like that, look,
I can't say they're wrong based on the way those
guys came off the board.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Okay, So from a strategy standpoint, though, if you're Jacksonville
and it was Travis Hunter, Gent and t mac why
make the move then to go to two because presumably
you would have been able to get one of those
guys at five.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Because they felt that strongly that Travis Hunter it was
that so when I rated off those names, it would
be Travis Hunter. Long pause, asked Gent, then Ted McMillan.
So they felt that strongly about what Travis Hunter brings
as a dynamic two way player that they wanted to
get him, and it had not only had to be
the talent that we saw. We saw the talent for
(05:37):
two years of Colorado and we also saw it at
Jackson State. But it's more the kid, the person, what
he's bringing, how much he loves the game, all of
those other things that really stood out to them. So
we're doing the change over the transformation of the team.
That is why they wanted him to spear hit the charge.
I want to ask you, as a resident Giants fan,
(05:58):
Abdul Carter, like, that's one thing I think you get
excited about that He had posted a week or so
ago the pitcher of Lawrence Taylor, So everyone kind of knew, like, oh, okay,
that's cool, But I gotta get your take, man. The
Giants have kind of been in the desert looking for
a franchise quarterback. Jackson Dart. What's the first thing that
came to mind when you heard the name associated with
the Giants.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yeah, I was surprised. I wasn't surprised that the Giants
moved back into the first round. I was surprised that
it was Jackson Dart that was the name for a
couple reasons. Number one, just the buzz around Shador Sanders.
I do flash back to neighbors and Sanders in the streets,
you know, a couple months ago, kind of playing catch,
clearly being linked there, and we spent and buck you
know this man, Like I spent a lot of time
covering college football, and it did feel like cam Warden
(06:40):
Shador Sanders. This was the conversation who was going to
be the first overall pick? And as the draft process unfolded,
I said, oh, you know, maybe we're not talking about him.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
You and I were.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
We did a couple of mock draft lives. I'm like, damn,
like you guys really don't think Shador's going all this high,
and yet clearly that didn't happen. The Jackson Dart angle
is intriguing to me because the first thing I think
about is when I used to watch Jackson Dart at
USC and then you transition to Ole Miss and he's
playing for Lane Kiff him and I don't always know
what to make of a quarterback that's played for Lane
(07:08):
because the reality is like it's just and I don't
mean this in a disrespectful way, but it's inflated numbers,
you know, Like Lane's an offensive dude, and he figures
out brilliantly how to get the ball into his playmaker's hands.
What I love about Jackson Dart. I remember watching a
lot of games this year where he's got a little
oomph too, right, Like we use the term swag on
our show on Draft Night, and I think that's appropriate.
(07:31):
But there's a little moxie attitude leadership thing. And I
think back to Brian Dable and more specifically, and I'm
going to relate this to Giants fans or just fans
in general of the NFL when you watch Hard Knocks
and you see how Brian Dable is peppering the quarterbacks
where they're considering who to draft, and Bron's got a
little bit of that tude, a little bit of that attitude,
(07:52):
and in a good way, right, like you can try
to coach up his guys. I think Jackson Dart's going
to respond really well to that. But I don't. I
candidly thought there was a world that existed where the
Giants and Jalen mil Row was going to be that marriage.
I watched Jalen. I see those traits physically, and I
see so much damn upside. And if you're telling me
that Russ is going to be your week one starter,
(08:12):
jamis is in the fold of security. There's a part
of me that thinks that that Jalen mill Roll might
have been a better fit. Now, once again, that wasn't
the case for the Giants and Jackson Darts their guy,
but they have been able to now check the box
and say, we got arguably the best player in this
draft in an Abdul Carter, which is going to help
that defense, and we have the quarterback of the future.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah, it's so funny to kind of hear the conversation
and how they finally went about it. They wanted to
make sure that they got their quarterback of the future.
And Jackson Dart to me was interesting because I felt
like early in the process he was underrated, and then
I worried about him being a little overrated. And I'm
looking at this piece that I wrote. Not it didn't
(08:54):
appear on NFL dot com, but look, I wrote about
athletic gunslinger developing one or more efficient explosive playmakers of
college football on a three year run at Old Miss,
big play mentality, spartaner offense lit up scoreboys back to
back seasons with ten wins six two, two thirty three,
two twenty three all the traits that you look for
quarterback deep ball proficiency, hits the strike zone, works the
(09:17):
entire feel, and then the scheme produces easy completions. But
his arm talent squeezes ball in the tight windows, velocity, touch, timing,
anticipation gets it done. Has enough athleticism to pick up
first downs on designed quarterback runs and scrambles. NFL coaches
can feature a wide variety of schemes to maximize its
talents as a QB one and at the bottom of
(09:38):
it are approximated round value. Oh, bottom of.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
The first Okay, so you nailed it.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
So I mean, like, that's that's what I had. And
so it's it's funny to see that play out. But
when you read the report and then you look at
the round value, he went exactly where he was supposed
to go on the board.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Okay, let me ask you this then, because I'm off
the top of the dome, I don't think there's another
team where there's as much. I hate using the term
hot seat because I think, you know, these are families,
people who have family, you know, and it's not just
the coach, like, there's support staff, the whole thing. So
you don't ever want to see anyone lose their job.
The reality of the situation is franchises make changes. The
(10:15):
thought was the Giants were going to make a move
with Joe Shane or Brian Daball. That didn't happen. But
Marrack comes out and says, we need to win right now.
I don't know if there's another team in the NFL
in this situation right like the teams that struggle, they
already have their new head coaches. I don't know if
there's another organization right now that says their general manager
and head coach are on the hot seat like the
Giants are. That's not the best way to approach the
(10:38):
draft because you're thinking, I'm not worried about two seasons
from now, and most people will tell you that's probably
the case for every team, But it does feel different
for this squad. Was there a different move to be
made at trading in at twenty five instead and just
maybe sitting tight or just going in a different direction
because of the thought process that comes with having to
(10:58):
win the season.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
No, you know, it's funny because I would give this
heaving work with Joe Shane. We worked together in Carolina,
and I know that Joe's wired the right way when
it comes to building a team. And what they did
in the offseason is they set themselves up where they
didn't have to make a rash move at three to
fit a need because they went out and signed Russell
Wilson and Jameis Winston. They felt like if they had
(11:22):
to put the ball down today, they could play with
the starting quarterback and have enough talent in the quarterback
room to win. That freed them up to take the
best player available at three and Abdual Carter. And then
when they made that move at three, I am sure
as soon as they handed it in the cord, they
started making sure they worked the phones to see when
could we potentially get back in and if we are
(11:44):
getting back in, what are the names that we would
get back into the first round with? Because it couldn't
just be Jackson Dart as the only quarterback that they
would move in, because look, he could have been gone
at any spot. Were they multiple names and what were those?
Was it Jackson Dart, Shoulder Sanders An Tyler shut was
a Jackson dor Tyler Shut. They had to be comfortable
(12:04):
with multiple quarterbacks to be able to get back in
the first round to say, hey, we're good. We gonna
get our quarterback of the future at the bottom of
round one.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yeah, it's it's wild to me when I think about
the direction of this organization over the next couple of years.
And I hate to play in the world of hypotheticals,
but had some games not necessarily gone their way late
in the season, they might not have picking at number three.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
I think.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
I hate to say it this way, but like, even
if they were picking at two, I don't know. I
think Abdul Carter might still have been the selection for him.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Look, I think you can make a reasonable assessment or
prediction that that would have been the pick. Like, Abdul
Carter is a dominant player. And when I look at
the ward and I look at the players that were
available in this JEFT, Travis Hunderd was one for me,
abduall Carter was two. They were comfortable taking either one
of those guys, and they would have been fine. Abdul
Carter works if it's the brand, and so like I
(12:56):
love it now. Ultimately, both the guys have to play
really well. So after Carter is the one who has
the i'll say the most pressure because he's the top
five pick. He has to play like that right away.
You think about Cavon Tippeau, who's number five overall pick.
He hasn't necessarily played like that. They need both of
their top five picks to play like that because you
have a level of expectation. And Jackson Dart fans will
(13:17):
have an expectation of what the quarterback should be. But
he was taking at the bottom of the first round.
There should be time given and grace given to him
before he becomes a starting quarterback. And look, Russell Wilson,
Jameis Winston, they're there to really kind of hold it
down until Jackson Dart is ready to be able to
do it.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, you say that. And yet off air, while we
were having conversations about the city of New York, you know,
every city's not treated the same way.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
I did not go treat it like no man, no,
like when Jackson Dart was drafted in the first round.
Away we go, poor Tommy Cutlets.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
It's like he anywhere, But like Jackson Dart, the clock
is on, like now, all the kind conversation through our
training camp is gonna be when Jackson are gonna be
ready to play, And so Russell and Jameis Winston have
to give the coaching staff and the fans enough to
kind of stay them off, like, no, we have a plan,
we have a plan for him.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
But here's the tricky thing, Cam Brian day Ball and
Joe Shane win enough to get to the other side
where they can see Jackson dark next year as the
starting quarterback. They have to win enough games to kind
of keep everyone at bay to be able to do
it unless the ownership is saying no, no, no, you good
(14:33):
you got this year regards of the record, then we
get it next year. But I don't know of New
York having enough patience to sit through another disappointing year
from the Giants. No.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
I mean, you think about all that media and the
lens that's there, and look, that's home for me. I
grew up there. So you're talking about two all sports stations,
two regional sports television networks. It is all eyes on
this squad. And taking a step further here, the Jets
don't have Aaron Rodgers anymore, so that story is now gone.
They're punting on that the Justin Field could be.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
A great doesn't have as much noise as the Giant Little.
Let's be honest, the Giants. The Giants owned the Apple
like they're the stable the franchise there. I mean, they're
a squad. So everyone is going to look to them now,
just like everyone looks to the Giants. I'm looking at
the rest of the top ten. Will Cambell goes forward
to the Patriots, Mason Graham Cleveland at five, asking genty
(15:22):
to the Raiders at six. I'm on Membo to the
Justin seven, Ted McMillan at eight, Kelvin Banks Junior to
the Saints at nine, and then Coaston Loveland at ten.
Of the picks, and I'll let you go after me. Sure,
number six asking genty to the Raiders was the one
that stood out. And to sit out because we know
Pete Carroll. You were on the West Coast and Peek
(15:42):
Carroll was doing his thing. He's always had running backs
when his programs have operated at their best. And go
back to like sc Lindelle White and Reggie Bush, Seattle
Sea Yawks. It was about Marshawn Lynch. You just had
to know that the Raiders under Pete Carroll. They're going
to have a blue chip running back, so I knew
that was coming, but it still stood out that they
(16:04):
were able to get them totally.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
And I say this because you know how excited I was.
This is my first year having a vote Genty. It
was hard for me not to pick Ashon Genty as
the leader. And when you do the rankings, it's one, two,
and three, and you know, for me, it ended up
being obviously Travis Hunter because of the special nature. But Genty,
the numbers alone speak for themselves the impact that he had.
(16:27):
We were doing our draft show with Lancer Aline, who
talked about a week offensive line and yet still you know,
historic type numbers from Genty. You know, for me, Carolina
at eight, I talked to a buddy of mine who's
around that team a whole lot, and I said, hey,
what direction do they go? Because I felt like there
was going to be a team that looked at the
eighth position and said, that's the trade spot. I want
to get ahead of it. I want to get ahead
(16:48):
of what the New Orleans Saints might do at number nine,
which clearly wasn't the case because they took Kelvin Banks.
I thought maybe the Steelers might be one of those
teams that didn't happen, And I asked him to say, hey,
what direction he goes. Look, there's some needs that are here,
but I would be if there's not another piece around
Bryce Young because the reclamation process that we saw even
in one year for Bryce was pretty pretty spectacular. And look,
(17:09):
they drafted Lagette that's been okay for them. I don't know.
I think it became abundantly clear it was going to
be wide receiver. We just didn't know which one it was.
And the fact that it was an explosive guy like
t Mac who once again was terrific playing at Arizona
not a huge surprise for me.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Picks eleven to twenty Mikhael Williams to San Francisco forty
nine Ers, Tyler Booker Dallas Cowboys, Kenneth Grant Miami Dolphins,
Tyler Warren Indianapolis goes, Jalen Walker Atlanta Falcons, walked to
Nolan Arizona Cardon, Shamar Stewart Cincinnati Bengals, Great Zabels, Seattle Seahawks,
A Mecca Abuka nineteen to the Den Bay Buccaneers, and
then Jedi Baron going to the Denver Broncos. When I
(17:55):
look at that list, the one that stands out to
me in terms of the best pick, best fit Tyler
Booker going to the Dallas Cowboys. The Dallas Cowboys the
offensive line. They lose Zach Martin last couple of years.
They're trying to kind of piecemeal this offensive line, kind
of get it back and going. They've really invested in that,
and to me, Taler Booker is the final piece of
(18:17):
the puzzle on the offensive line. Replacing a legend in
Zach Martin is going to be tough. But when we
think about what this team wants to be under Brian Schottenheimer,
a rough and rugged, a physical team that can run
the football, Tyler Booker fits the bill. I mean he
moves people off the ball. He is physical, he's nasty,
he's a tempo center, and I just think he fits
(18:39):
in with how they want to play. I would expect
them to be a very physical team at the point
of attack, and that's going to not only help them
find their running game, it's going to take a lot
of pressure off Dak Prescott.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
No more excuses for the Dallas Cowboys. Three concut Like,
look at this offensive line, man we every single year, Buck,
and you and I do enough shows together on NFL
Network where I go what's going on with this Dallas
Cowboys team? And we both know when they were rocking
in the nineties, it wasn't just because of Emmett Smith
and IRV and Troy Aikman. You look at those bad
(19:09):
boys up front and allowing a guy like eMTA to
do the damage that he's done. We have talked about
the issues that they've had on offensive line for a
few seasons now, Tyler Geiton, Tyler Smith, now Tyler Booker.
It's three consecutive years of three first round offensive linemen.
No more excuses. This has got to be the year
for this team to thrive. And I wasn't surprised that
(19:31):
they went there. I thought it could be running back.
In fact, I thought Hampton could be the guy, the
player that I know you kept close eyes on because
of your North Carolina ties. There the only other team
that I would throw and maybe Sandwich this year. Jaalen Walker,
who would land of Falcons at fifteen. I thought was
a spectacular pick because it's a really good player and
a position of need for it. And they obviously double down,
which we can talk about coming up in just a
(19:52):
couple minutes. But Tampa Bay, I loved your assessment of
Abuka because I don't know what you do in that
wide receiver room, but you highlight this, you know pretty well.
Got another year for Mike Evans and then who kind
of knows what happens, But it's an embarrassment of riches
in that wide receiver room.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Embarrassment of riches. And this is Jason Light and Toy
Bowles making sure that Baker Mayfield has what he needs
to be successful. A Mecca Buka coming in being the
number three receiver alongside Chris Godwin and Mike Evans. I mean,
just a big, physical wide receiver room and for an
undersized quarterback, it expands the strike zone. It makes it easy,
but it also creates a succession plan in case Mike
(20:30):
Evan moves on after this year and if he stays man,
who I mean, who better to learn from than a
guy who's been a perennial pro bowler, another guy who's
an outstanding playmaker and Chris gott I just think it
makes so much sense. And when I look at him,
Mecca book, he's a pro man. He is a pro
you see it. He is polished, he's seasoned, he has it.
(20:51):
To me, it's just a nice fit for what they
want offensively to do and how they want to do it.
And then twentieth pig Ver Bronco's taking Jedi Baron. We
talked about running back, I mean, Sean Bayton talked about
running backs that we all were kind of waiting for
the running back to go, but them taking look Man
one of the best defensive players that we've seen in
(21:14):
the class and arguably, like people say, like the best
corner because he can do so much jim Thorpe, w Wardwick,
versatile instincts, awareness, toughness. I just like putting him beside
Pat Sortan and being able to do so many things
in a secondary.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
On your way, Yeah, I'd love to know how scouts
front offices look at FCS players on the offensive line.
And I bring this up because Gray is Able goes
to Seattle at eighteen North Dakota State kid, you and
I were getting together for the East West Shrine. Bul
I told the story Timpolasek, who's got that offensive line mentality?
I mean, the guy must have dropped more fbombs in
(21:50):
a Fifthe conversation when I was when I was asking
him about his quarterback than anything, but he wanted to
talk about oh Li. Told me a lot about Zabel
and why he was going to be a next level player.
I do think a little bit about Trevor Penning as
another one that maybe hasn't lived up to the hype.
How do you go to the mat on a guy
that you've scouted when it's not power for football, it's
(22:12):
not the SEC. And yet clearly that didn't scare Seattle.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
It didn't. And it's funny because John Snyder, look, he
learned under Ron Wolf. Ron Wolf, Hall of fame executive
Green Bay Packers longtime general manager, and Ron Wolf was
not a small school fan. He wanted to see guys
come from big schools because guys with big schools and
winning predigrees understand what it's like and they're more likely
to transition very quickly into the National Football League. But
(22:38):
when you do take a small school standard And I
remember having this conversation with Ron I called him and
it was when I was scouting Vincent Jackson who was
at Northern Colorado, and I asked him what did he
see from Terall Lawns when Tera Lawns was at UT Chattanooga,
he said, when you're looking at small school standouts, do
they dominate their level of competition? And when they have
opportunities to play or level up, how do they perform?
(23:01):
The thing that probably convinced the Seattle Seahawks on Gray
Zabel his performance at the Seniu Bowl. On top of
his tape at North Dakota State, he held his own and
dominated the time in the singable, which gave them confidence
that it may take some time, but he has the
stuff to be able to be a successful pro at
the level.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Is there a position group that you guys would consider
at an FCS level that was maybe stronger because once
again it's a big boy up front versus and you
just name name checked a couple wide receivers.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Yeah. No, I mean look, I think it comes down
to the same thing, like how do they play when
they have to play against the competition that they will
see at the NFL level? Can you see him at
an All Star game? When they are at an All
Star game, do they hold it on? Do they look
out of place? If they don't look out of place, well, man,
how competitive are they with some of the best of
the best and the thing that you saw in the
tape on Gray Zabel at the game, he not only
(23:53):
held his own but he won plenty of reps against
top competition, which made it a figure. When you take someone
in the middle of the first round for almost small school,
you're saying, oh, no, no, this guy's gonna come in and
play play right well, play well right away, and his
position flexibility gives you a few options in terms of
trying to put him in a place where he can
be most successful that should help him succeed.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Yeah, no, I'm with you there. And once again, I
just think it's fascinating a remade Seattle team when you
consider Sam Darnold is now in the fold a wide
receiver room that looks like a shellman nothing, it's essentially
brand new, and yet with their first pick in round
number one, it's an FCS player.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah. Look, it's very interesting. But you know what also
was interesting The Pittsburgh stale is at twenty one, taking
Derek Harmon, Amario Hampton going twenty two to the La Charges,
Matthew Golden going to the Packers at twenty three, Donovan
Jackson to the Minnesota Vikings Giants, taking Jackson Dart Atlanta
Falcon has taken James Fears Junior at twenty six, Malachi
Stark's going twenty seven to the Ravens, Tyler Williams coming
(24:54):
off the board at twenty eight to the Detroit Lions,
Josh Connelly twenty nine to the Commander's, max Or Harriston
going to the Buffalo Bills at thirty and then we're
finished off. John Campbell going to the Eagles at thirty one,
and Josh Simmons at thirty two to the Kansite Chiefs.
And I'm gonna say this because I had a little
egg on my face. Matthew Gold and breaking the streak.
(25:15):
The Green Bay Packers took a wide receiver twenty three overall,
first time since two thousand and two that they have
taken a wide receiver in the first round. You already
had the end deal, you baiting me into it, so
right there and look he goes. I am surprised, but
then I'm not only because when you paid Jordan Love
(25:36):
the kind of money that they paid him, you want
to make sure that he has success. Josh Jacobs said, man,
we need a number one receiver. We need a guy,
and for your starting running back. We ran for over
thirteen hundred yards to say that we need a number
one receiver. It means that he feels the impact of
not having that. Either the box is clouded, the offense
(25:56):
doesn't go. It's just a little different. He needs more
room and he know what and number one receiver would
do for him. And so him calling out for a
number one receiver maybe the front off his listen. And
they decided that Matthew Golden was going to be a guy.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Kind of weird man. They listening to him, but it
wasn't Rogers kind of jumping up and down for a
couple of seasons hoping to get one of these players.
One observation here, and I'm gonna steal with something that
David Carr had told me because at the end of
the season, DC and I were talking. I said, hey, man,
Green Bay is a really good team that's so close.
This is a young receiver room. Last year was first
(26:29):
and second year of players that were their contributors. They
go again in round number one and they take a wide,
but not again. They do it for the first time
to two thousand and two, but they double down in
terms of trying to add some weapons there. I said, DC, like,
what do they need? And he said, the one thing
that I would point to is is a guy that
could take it over the top, Like who's that speedzer,
who can stretch the defenses, who can get you really
(26:50):
those big explosive plays. And Matthew Golden seems to be
able to check that box just based off of the
speed level. And I know, obviously you got to watch
a ton of him at Texas. It did feel like
when they needed a big play, he was the obvious
target and.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
That was really apparent when he watched it in the playoff,
when they needed a play, they went to him, and look,
there was another decorated player opposite of Isaiah Bond, But
when it came down to it, the ball went to
Matthew Golden. And the fact that he went from Houston
to Texas and kind of swiped the number one role
from others that look, this speaks volumes about his play.
Now someone else. And we were talking about the Atlanta
(27:25):
Falcons trading. They got Jalen Walker at fifteen, but James
Pierce at twenty six. You talked about the Falcons liking
their moves. What was it about these power moves?
Speaker 1 (27:34):
That you love the fact that this has been a
team so deficient at creating pressure on quarterbacks. I was
fortunate enough to be down in Atlanta in August for
training camp, and you talk to the fans down there,
you talk to their coaching staff. Terry Fotteau was one
of our guests, and it was abundantly clear, Hey, like,
we need to be better on the defensive side. They
were thirty first in the NFL in sacks a season ago.
(27:57):
I don't think it was much better two seasons ago,
and yet it didn't get better last season. And I
think what's fascinating is they took a page out of
what the Eagles did a year ago and say, hey,
we got some questions on that secondary. We're gonna double dip.
We're going to take two guys in round number one.
I think the Falcons were ridiculously aggressive. I love that
they were aggressive last year in a different regard by
taking Michael Pennix when they did, and then this year
(28:19):
they said, you know what, We're not going to have
that excuse and in division that is gettable. Right now.
They gotta feel Pennix can ball. We feel good about
him being a missing piece and if we're remotely better
on the defensive side. Maybe that's enough to really push
a Tampa Bay squad.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Dude, they are all in. They made an aggressive move
a year ago when they got Michael Penix while they
had Kirk Cousins already in the building. The incadn't even
drive it on this contract, and they go and get
a number one pick. And then this year, Terry final
goes doubles down very aggressive to go and get James
Pennis to pair him with Jalen Walker. And we can
say a lot of things about what they have, but
now they have two guys that can get after the passer,
(28:54):
albeit in different ways. Jalen Walker, being a hybrid linebacker,
can play inside off ball but then down and come
off the edge, which should make him a really intriguing
and impressive blitzer. And then James Spears, who can line up,
come off the edge and win with speed and just explosiveness.
It is gon'na be fun to watch this Atlanta Falcon
team kind of get it together. And one thing that
(29:16):
you have to understand when you're a team builder, you're
building your team to also play in your stadium. So
these two fast guys playing on a turf, it's the
Mercedes Benz Dome, whatever we call it. But being able
to get off that that should certainly helped them. And
I want to go to pick right after Pierce comes
off the boards, Malachot starts going to the Baltimore Ravens.
(29:39):
The Ravens for years have traditionally drafted just really good
footballs at football players at all levels of the draft,
and Starts been a high IQ player, a guy that's
a combo safety mining he can play in the box
and play in the deep middle, a guy who really
compliments Kyle Hamilton will and man, look, I know they
had gotten good player from a Darius Washington, but for
(29:59):
two first round safeties, that secondary is going to get
back to playing the way that they played when they
played really good defense in the past.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Where did you have Starks going? Was is this the
right range? I only asked because a couple of years ago,
Kyle Hamilton we didn't talk about. I don't remember the exact.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Number, fourteen, four and fourteen, but he was Look, he
was rated as a top five player in the draft.
Class goes to the combine, doesn't run faster. Then, as
we're prone to do, we overthink it and very similar
to Malachos Starks. He was the number one safety heading
into the combine. Nick emin Warrior had a great combine
and kind of stole Starks his thunder because he was
(30:37):
so impressive as a six to four athlete and those things.
But the Ravens, because I know this, they put their
pencils down before they get to the combine. Their grades
and stuff are all in. They're done with the process
before they get to the combine, so they're not swayed
by the workouts. Their grades and their things are done
off the tape and off the tape. Malachis Starks was
(30:58):
an impressive player, not only last season, but a season before.
You saw a ton of plays, a ton of reactions
and instincts and big plays. And that's why at twenty
seven he was the right fit for them.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Yeah, the rich get richer. I've been saying this for
two seasons now that the Baltimore Ravens have the best
roster in the NFL that hasn't culminated into a Super
Bowl championship. A couple of years ago obviously got close.
It was the Kansas City Chiefs beating them in Baltimore
and even being in Baltimore in August. You could feel
that in the conversations with the players they were referencing that.
(31:30):
And then they got better somehow, and Derek Henry comes
aboard and they're they're rolling. Save Flowers has a breakout
season and yet once again falling just short. I just
wonder if a piece like this gets them this much closer,
because I still think it comes down to how do
you learn from some of your losses because you can't
even can't point at the roster buck like.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
They gonna make plays like they're gonna make plays, cause
their thing has little to do with the talent and
more to do with the execution. The effort is there,
the execution has to be better in the those key moments.
Last pick that I want to talk about, John Campbell
going to the field of Eagles. Another example of Howie
Roseman doing what Howie Roseman does. He's not a grade
to He's not afraid to move up, even though it
(32:11):
was just flipping a spot to go and get a linebacker.
And you gotta remember, the Eagles never go after the linebackers.
It was a position that they didn't value in their model,
whether it's their analytics or just a philosophical standpoint, they
didn't really see a lot of value in getting linebackers high.
But lo and behold, joh Campbell is the pick. And
(32:32):
maybe I'll say this. He was the pick for them
because not only is the off ball linebacker, but because
he's so effective coming off the edge. That is the
only way they could have said Vic Fangio had to
be And Howie Roseman's saying no, no, I'm telling you, if
we get him in we can do these things with him.
He can be effective, really intriguing, anticing pick for the philadelp.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Hgles all Right, I go throw something in your way
on day two. Okay, here we got I'm not going
to ask you when should Dor Sanders gets drafted. I'm
going to ask you, does Tyler, Schucker, Jell and Milroll
go ahead head of Shador?
Speaker 2 (33:03):
They shouldn't. But now I'm nervous. I didn't think Jackson
Dart would go. When I look at the board, I'm saying,
you got the Browns right away at thirty three, and
then I think you have the Raiders at thirty six
or thirty seven. To me, Shadure Sanders to the Raiders
would be the best pick and the reason why is
the comparison for me, Wish's Jewer Sanders would be either
(33:27):
Jerry Goff or Gino Smith. And so if you get
him and you put him behind it, and look, I
know people were like, well they got a backup quarterback,
and ain't O'Connell in those things. I hear that, But
I just think the relationship tom Brady looking look, it's
overblown a little bit, even if Shaduer told me that,
but Tom Brady being there, tom Brady kind of knowing
what he's about, being able to learn that, to me,
(33:48):
it would fit. I'm not saying that Cleveland wouldn't be fit,
but man, if I could pick it for him, I
would pick the Raiders.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
It's gonna be wild here because I think there's got
to be some concerns injury wise. For Tyler Shuck, I
made this reference before I got to see him a
ton when he was at Oregon. It feels like he's
a step away from collecting Social Security. He's been around
for so long. But I know all the reports coming
out of the Senior Bowl as he's impressive. I look
at those traits though. For Jalen Milroll, I remember the
(34:14):
first time I watched him in a game. I'm like, damn, Like,
this dude is just he's so different out there. And
that's where I start to hedge a little bit and go, Hey,
which guy, which quarterback is it going to be? That's
gonna hear his name called next, and maybe it's Sanders
or maybe it's one of those other players.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Look, it should be fascinating to watch. That was this
week's Hot or Not segment, brought to you by with
Sabi how cloud storage, store more and do more with
your data. Try them for free at wassabi dot com.
Yeah this was fun.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Yeah, man, I appreciate the we spent We.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Spent four hours doing the drafting, and we spent a
little extra time doing a podcast. We gotta get you
on the podcast again.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Yeah, man, we went over time on this one. And
then it's me and you the rest of the way.
On Day two and day three, Day three on Saturday,
you're gonna be ready to kill. I promise.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
Maybe maybe I got your coffee because I know I
know this, we're gonna have to have some runners or whatever.
We went to the whole first round without having runners
bringing coffee and treats and all that. When we go
rounds four through seven, some people gonna have to get
on the move. We're gonna have to get.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
A Starbucks to kind of I shouldn't even drop that,
but the coffee plays with the little green and signy,
and so we're gonna need them to kind of drop
some coffee.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Can I just look for people who don't know Buck
and I love our caffee. We've traveled down the road before.
He says that I'm picky. I drink cole Brew black.
This dude comes in. I'll never forget this and you'll
never be able to say anything to me. Your your
Starbucks cup.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Said, They already, they already are made. Those are pre
made comments on those things. But look, this was a
lot of fun. Thanks thanks for coming on. Move to
sticks yammer guys, make sure you tune in tomorrow night.
We have another podcast at the rounds two and three,
Day two of the Draft. Until then, we'll talk to
him
And now Move the Sticks with Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Welcome to Move the Sticks. I am Bucky Brooks and
my man Mike Yam, who is sitting in for DJ.
We just hosted how many hours of coverage, like almost
five hours of coverage, wars of coverage, and we saw
the first round and we're gonna get into everything that
we saw in the first round. We're gonna talk about
the quarterback sh Dr Sanders, who is on the outside
(00:27):
looking in. Uh, but let's get into it. It's time
for Hot or Not brought to you by Saby Hot
Cloud Storage Yam or overall thoughts on the first round.
I just got to get your take on.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Okay, So can we just rewind for a second. First
of all, I'm sitting in for DJ, so there's automatically
I'm like, what are we doing right now? Then I
find out I'm working with you, so obviously I'm excited
because I get to yeah, but then it's taking another level.
I'm I'm used to running point yeah, I just get
out of the off the wall. We put the headsets
on Bucks like, Yo, I got you. I said, oh, okay, okay,
(00:58):
I'll step back here. This is awesome. Look, you and
I were doing mock draft live on NFL Network for
a few weeks. So the fact that we get this
first round and we get to actually see how it
plays out and unfold, there wasn't a huge surprise. I
think clearly the trades. I thought it was gonna be
relatively quiet. I didn't think you could be a ton
of splashes, and I do think in the scope when
you compare it to previous years, like there weren't really
(01:21):
a ton of trades. But we saw aggressive moves, which
I like the teams that decided to go and move up,
like the Jacks, a team that you know really well
because you're part of that radio broadcast. They said, look,
we're gonna take a swing. We're gonna go and get
Travis Hunter, and I know you love him. But then
on top of that, the Giants and the Falcons ATL
was a little bit of a surprise. But I love
what they did because they took two big swings on
(01:42):
the defensive side and when they've had some issues, I
love that try to get some dudes that can get
after the quarterback. And then the Giants, you know, I yeah,
you rock.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
With the Giants. So let's talk about all the trades,
like right off the top, the Jacksonman Jaguars moving from
five to two to get Travis Hunter. The thing about
the Travis Hunter pick is and talking to people in
the building, they say, like the three Jews that were
on their board that were really covenant, it was Travis Hunter,
it was Asking Gent and then it was Ted McMillan.
That was the way that they saw, like offensively, they
(02:13):
wanted to add somebody with some splash, some bizazz to
that offense for them to make the move to get
Travis Hunter. One, it tells me that Liam Coin and
James glaston are all in on trying to make this
team better in a hurry. Two. They talked about James
glastone and talked about having the intangible qualities if you
get the players that the rite intangible to the culture
in the locker room changes organically because you're bringing the
(02:35):
right people in and whatever. Well, we know Travis Hunter.
He is about football, he's about fishing. He is all ball,
all the time, terrific player and then a unique talent
as a two way player. So I'm just curious on
how that's going to work for them in terms of
what is the plan? But then the trades and the
reason I'm gonna go to the Giants before we go
to the Falcons is I'm looking at Abdull Carter at
(02:57):
three and when they made the move to get Abdul
cart I'm like, okay, well, that play to their identity
when they've been at their best. The D line kind
of sets the tone. We saw them knock off the
Patriots twice because their D line was so dominant, like
it worked. But then the question is why they can
get a quarterback. If they do get a quarterback, who's
going to be the quarterback? So they trade back in
(03:17):
they get into twenty five, they get Jackson Dart and look,
Jackson Dart's name has been popping up as been a
first round that debt was not a question, but Jackson
dark going Overshowder Sanders as the preferred pick for the Giants.
That is the conversation that we'll have over the next
few years.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Okay, So there's a lot to unpack on what you
just said. I want to circle back on the Giants
for a moment, but I think you have this experience
that I think needs to be shared here. Obviously as
a scout. You've been in a lot of these draft rooms,
You've done the talent evaluation. You know what these conversations are. Like,
I talk to a lot of fans and they'll say, oh,
first round guy, Not every team has a first round
grade on all thirty two players. And I think what
(03:56):
you just said about the Jacks is fascinating because you said,
who's on the board that they really like, Like Travis
Hunter was one of those guys to Max and then
jenty right and whoever whatever that order is. I don't
know if there's I don't know thirty one other teams
that would have had it necessarily lay out like that.
And the reality is, like, I just think it's really
important to have and set that distinction because Teed McMillan's
(04:18):
a great example. I hadn't heard his name as one
of these eleaite players, and yet you're telling me the
Jags had him.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
The Jacks had him right there. So it's funny, right
because when it played out, and this kind of tells
you about the entire process, because the way that the
process started, Ted McMillan was the name that we had
talked about up in the top five. Sure, the entire
time when those mock drafts came out early, Ted McMillan's
name was always dotted in the top ten. Then it
kind of fell out, and then it was a conversation like, hey,
he might not be wide receiver one because I wasn't
(04:44):
including Travis Hunter's wide receiver one, so oh, maybe you
know somebody else is there. And then law and behold,
the Jaguars get their guy in Travis Hunter, asking jend
comes off the board at six, and then Tied McMillan
comes off the board at eight. And so when we
talk about the Jaguars having their board rank like that, look,
I can't say they're wrong based on the way those
guys came off the board.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Okay, So from a strategy standpoint, though, if you're Jacksonville
and it was Travis Hunter, Gent and t mac why
make the move then to go to two because presumably
you would have been able to get one of those
guys at five.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Because they felt that strongly that Travis Hunter it was
that so when I rated off those names, it would
be Travis Hunter. Long pause, asked Gent, then Ted McMillan.
So they felt that strongly about what Travis Hunter brings
as a dynamic two way player that they wanted to
get him, and it had not only had to be
the talent that we saw. We saw the talent for
(05:37):
two years of Colorado and we also saw it at
Jackson State. But it's more the kid, the person, what
he's bringing, how much he loves the game, all of
those other things that really stood out to them. So
we're doing the change over the transformation of the team.
That is why they wanted him to spear hit the charge.
I want to ask you, as a resident Giants fan,
(05:58):
Abdul Carter, like, that's one thing I think you get
excited about that He had posted a week or so
ago the pitcher of Lawrence Taylor, So everyone kind of knew, like, oh, okay,
that's cool, But I gotta get your take, man. The
Giants have kind of been in the desert looking for
a franchise quarterback. Jackson Dart. What's the first thing that
came to mind when you heard the name associated with
the Giants.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yeah, I was surprised. I wasn't surprised that the Giants
moved back into the first round. I was surprised that
it was Jackson Dart that was the name for a
couple reasons. Number one, just the buzz around Shador Sanders.
I do flash back to neighbors and Sanders in the streets,
you know, a couple months ago, kind of playing catch,
clearly being linked there, and we spent and buck you
know this man, Like I spent a lot of time
covering college football, and it did feel like cam Warden
(06:40):
Shador Sanders. This was the conversation who was going to
be the first overall pick? And as the draft process unfolded,
I said, oh, you know, maybe we're not talking about him.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
You and I were.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
We did a couple of mock draft lives. I'm like, damn,
like you guys really don't think Shador's going all this high,
and yet clearly that didn't happen. The Jackson Dart angle
is intriguing to me because the first thing I think
about is when I used to watch Jackson Dart at
USC and then you transition to Ole Miss and he's
playing for Lane Kiff him and I don't always know
what to make of a quarterback that's played for Lane
(07:08):
because the reality is like it's just and I don't
mean this in a disrespectful way, but it's inflated numbers,
you know, Like Lane's an offensive dude, and he figures
out brilliantly how to get the ball into his playmaker's hands.
What I love about Jackson Dart. I remember watching a
lot of games this year where he's got a little
oomph too, right, Like we use the term swag on
our show on Draft Night, and I think that's appropriate.
(07:31):
But there's a little moxie attitude leadership thing. And I
think back to Brian Dable and more specifically, and I'm
going to relate this to Giants fans or just fans
in general of the NFL when you watch Hard Knocks
and you see how Brian Dable is peppering the quarterbacks
where they're considering who to draft, and Bron's got a
little bit of that tude, a little bit of that attitude,
(07:52):
and in a good way, right, like you can try
to coach up his guys. I think Jackson Dart's going
to respond really well to that. But I don't. I
candidly thought there was a world that existed where the
Giants and Jalen mil Row was going to be that marriage.
I watched Jalen. I see those traits physically, and I
see so much damn upside. And if you're telling me
that Russ is going to be your week one starter,
(08:12):
jamis is in the fold of security. There's a part
of me that thinks that that Jalen mill Roll might
have been a better fit. Now, once again, that wasn't
the case for the Giants and Jackson Darts their guy,
but they have been able to now check the box
and say, we got arguably the best player in this
draft in an Abdul Carter, which is going to help
that defense, and we have the quarterback of the future.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah, it's so funny to kind of hear the conversation
and how they finally went about it. They wanted to
make sure that they got their quarterback of the future.
And Jackson Dart to me was interesting because I felt
like early in the process he was underrated, and then
I worried about him being a little overrated. And I'm
looking at this piece that I wrote. Not it didn't
(08:54):
appear on NFL dot com, but look, I wrote about
athletic gunslinger developing one or more efficient explosive playmakers of
college football on a three year run at Old Miss,
big play mentality, spartaner offense lit up scoreboys back to
back seasons with ten wins six two, two thirty three,
two twenty three all the traits that you look for
quarterback deep ball proficiency, hits the strike zone, works the
(09:17):
entire feel, and then the scheme produces easy completions. But
his arm talent squeezes ball in the tight windows, velocity, touch, timing,
anticipation gets it done. Has enough athleticism to pick up
first downs on designed quarterback runs and scrambles. NFL coaches
can feature a wide variety of schemes to maximize its
talents as a QB one and at the bottom of
(09:38):
it are approximated round value. Oh, bottom of.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
The first Okay, so you nailed it.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
So I mean, like, that's that's what I had. And
so it's it's funny to see that play out. But
when you read the report and then you look at
the round value, he went exactly where he was supposed
to go on the board.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Okay, let me ask you this then, because I'm off
the top of the dome, I don't think there's another
team where there's as much. I hate using the term
hot seat because I think, you know, these are families,
people who have family, you know, and it's not just
the coach, like, there's support staff, the whole thing. So
you don't ever want to see anyone lose their job.
The reality of the situation is franchises make changes. The
(10:15):
thought was the Giants were going to make a move
with Joe Shane or Brian Daball. That didn't happen. But
Marrack comes out and says, we need to win right now.
I don't know if there's another team in the NFL
in this situation right like the teams that struggle, they
already have their new head coaches. I don't know if
there's another organization right now that says their general manager
and head coach are on the hot seat like the
Giants are. That's not the best way to approach the
(10:38):
draft because you're thinking, I'm not worried about two seasons
from now, and most people will tell you that's probably
the case for every team, But it does feel different
for this squad. Was there a different move to be
made at trading in at twenty five instead and just
maybe sitting tight or just going in a different direction
because of the thought process that comes with having to
(10:58):
win the season.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
No, you know, it's funny because I would give this
heaving work with Joe Shane. We worked together in Carolina,
and I know that Joe's wired the right way when
it comes to building a team. And what they did
in the offseason is they set themselves up where they
didn't have to make a rash move at three to
fit a need because they went out and signed Russell
Wilson and Jameis Winston. They felt like if they had
(11:22):
to put the ball down today, they could play with
the starting quarterback and have enough talent in the quarterback
room to win. That freed them up to take the
best player available at three and Abdual Carter. And then
when they made that move at three, I am sure
as soon as they handed it in the cord, they
started making sure they worked the phones to see when
could we potentially get back in and if we are
(11:44):
getting back in, what are the names that we would
get back into the first round with? Because it couldn't
just be Jackson Dart as the only quarterback that they
would move in, because look, he could have been gone
at any spot. Were they multiple names and what were those?
Was it Jackson Dart, Shoulder Sanders An Tyler shut was
a Jackson dor Tyler Shut. They had to be comfortable
(12:04):
with multiple quarterbacks to be able to get back in
the first round to say, hey, we're good. We gonna
get our quarterback of the future at the bottom of
round one.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yeah, it's it's wild to me when I think about
the direction of this organization over the next couple of years.
And I hate to play in the world of hypotheticals,
but had some games not necessarily gone their way late
in the season, they might not have picking at number three.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
I think.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
I hate to say it this way, but like, even
if they were picking at two, I don't know. I
think Abdul Carter might still have been the selection for him.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Look, I think you can make a reasonable assessment or
prediction that that would have been the pick. Like, Abdul
Carter is a dominant player. And when I look at
the ward and I look at the players that were
available in this JEFT, Travis Hunderd was one for me,
abduall Carter was two. They were comfortable taking either one
of those guys, and they would have been fine. Abdul
Carter works if it's the brand, and so like I
(12:56):
love it now. Ultimately, both the guys have to play
really well. So after Carter is the one who has
the i'll say the most pressure because he's the top
five pick. He has to play like that right away.
You think about Cavon Tippeau, who's number five overall pick.
He hasn't necessarily played like that. They need both of
their top five picks to play like that because you
have a level of expectation. And Jackson Dart fans will
(13:17):
have an expectation of what the quarterback should be. But
he was taking at the bottom of the first round.
There should be time given and grace given to him
before he becomes a starting quarterback. And look, Russell Wilson,
Jameis Winston, they're there to really kind of hold it
down until Jackson Dart is ready to be able to
do it.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, you say that. And yet off air, while we
were having conversations about the city of New York, you know,
every city's not treated the same way.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
I did not go treat it like no man, no,
like when Jackson Dart was drafted in the first round.
Away we go, poor Tommy Cutlets.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
It's like he anywhere, But like Jackson Dart, the clock
is on, like now, all the kind conversation through our
training camp is gonna be when Jackson are gonna be
ready to play, And so Russell and Jameis Winston have
to give the coaching staff and the fans enough to
kind of stay them off, like, no, we have a plan,
we have a plan for him.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
But here's the tricky thing, Cam Brian day Ball and
Joe Shane win enough to get to the other side
where they can see Jackson dark next year as the
starting quarterback. They have to win enough games to kind
of keep everyone at bay to be able to do
it unless the ownership is saying no, no, no, you good
(14:33):
you got this year regards of the record, then we
get it next year. But I don't know of New
York having enough patience to sit through another disappointing year
from the Giants. No.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
I mean, you think about all that media and the
lens that's there, and look, that's home for me. I
grew up there. So you're talking about two all sports stations,
two regional sports television networks. It is all eyes on
this squad. And taking a step further here, the Jets
don't have Aaron Rodgers anymore, so that story is now gone.
They're punting on that the Justin Field could be.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
A great doesn't have as much noise as the Giant Little.
Let's be honest, the Giants. The Giants owned the Apple
like they're the stable the franchise there. I mean, they're
a squad. So everyone is going to look to them now,
just like everyone looks to the Giants. I'm looking at
the rest of the top ten. Will Cambell goes forward
to the Patriots, Mason Graham Cleveland at five, asking genty
(15:22):
to the Raiders at six. I'm on Membo to the
Justin seven, Ted McMillan at eight, Kelvin Banks Junior to
the Saints at nine, and then Coaston Loveland at ten.
Of the picks, and I'll let you go after me. Sure,
number six asking genty to the Raiders was the one
that stood out. And to sit out because we know
Pete Carroll. You were on the West Coast and Peek
(15:42):
Carroll was doing his thing. He's always had running backs
when his programs have operated at their best. And go
back to like sc Lindelle White and Reggie Bush, Seattle
Sea Yawks. It was about Marshawn Lynch. You just had
to know that the Raiders under Pete Carroll. They're going
to have a blue chip running back, so I knew
that was coming, but it still stood out that they
(16:04):
were able to get them totally.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
And I say this because you know how excited I was.
This is my first year having a vote Genty. It
was hard for me not to pick Ashon Genty as
the leader. And when you do the rankings, it's one, two,
and three, and you know, for me, it ended up
being obviously Travis Hunter because of the special nature. But Genty,
the numbers alone speak for themselves the impact that he had.
(16:27):
We were doing our draft show with Lancer Aline, who
talked about a week offensive line and yet still you know,
historic type numbers from Genty. You know, for me, Carolina
at eight, I talked to a buddy of mine who's
around that team a whole lot, and I said, hey,
what direction do they go? Because I felt like there
was going to be a team that looked at the
eighth position and said, that's the trade spot. I want
to get ahead of it. I want to get ahead
(16:48):
of what the New Orleans Saints might do at number nine,
which clearly wasn't the case because they took Kelvin Banks.
I thought maybe the Steelers might be one of those
teams that didn't happen, And I asked him to say, hey,
what direction he goes. Look, there's some needs that are here,
but I would be if there's not another piece around
Bryce Young because the reclamation process that we saw even
in one year for Bryce was pretty pretty spectacular. And look,
(17:09):
they drafted Lagette that's been okay for them. I don't know.
I think it became abundantly clear it was going to
be wide receiver. We just didn't know which one it was.
And the fact that it was an explosive guy like
t Mac who once again was terrific playing at Arizona
not a huge surprise for me.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Picks eleven to twenty Mikhael Williams to San Francisco forty
nine Ers, Tyler Booker Dallas Cowboys, Kenneth Grant Miami Dolphins,
Tyler Warren Indianapolis goes, Jalen Walker Atlanta Falcons, walked to
Nolan Arizona Cardon, Shamar Stewart Cincinnati Bengals, Great Zabels, Seattle Seahawks,
A Mecca Abuka nineteen to the Den Bay Buccaneers, and
then Jedi Baron going to the Denver Broncos. When I
(17:55):
look at that list, the one that stands out to
me in terms of the best pick, best fit Tyler
Booker going to the Dallas Cowboys. The Dallas Cowboys the
offensive line. They lose Zach Martin last couple of years.
They're trying to kind of piecemeal this offensive line, kind
of get it back and going. They've really invested in that,
and to me, Taler Booker is the final piece of
(18:17):
the puzzle on the offensive line. Replacing a legend in
Zach Martin is going to be tough. But when we
think about what this team wants to be under Brian Schottenheimer,
a rough and rugged, a physical team that can run
the football, Tyler Booker fits the bill. I mean he
moves people off the ball. He is physical, he's nasty,
he's a tempo center, and I just think he fits
(18:39):
in with how they want to play. I would expect
them to be a very physical team at the point
of attack, and that's going to not only help them
find their running game, it's going to take a lot
of pressure off Dak Prescott.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
No more excuses for the Dallas Cowboys. Three concut Like,
look at this offensive line, man we every single year, Buck,
and you and I do enough shows together on NFL
Network where I go what's going on with this Dallas
Cowboys team? And we both know when they were rocking
in the nineties, it wasn't just because of Emmett Smith
and IRV and Troy Aikman. You look at those bad
(19:09):
boys up front and allowing a guy like eMTA to
do the damage that he's done. We have talked about
the issues that they've had on offensive line for a
few seasons now, Tyler Geiton, Tyler Smith, now Tyler Booker.
It's three consecutive years of three first round offensive linemen.
No more excuses. This has got to be the year
for this team to thrive. And I wasn't surprised that
(19:31):
they went there. I thought it could be running back.
In fact, I thought Hampton could be the guy, the
player that I know you kept close eyes on because
of your North Carolina ties. There the only other team
that I would throw and maybe Sandwich this year. Jaalen Walker,
who would land of Falcons at fifteen. I thought was
a spectacular pick because it's a really good player and
a position of need for it. And they obviously double down,
which we can talk about coming up in just a
(19:52):
couple minutes. But Tampa Bay, I loved your assessment of
Abuka because I don't know what you do in that
wide receiver room, but you highlight this, you know pretty well.
Got another year for Mike Evans and then who kind
of knows what happens, But it's an embarrassment of riches
in that wide receiver room.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Embarrassment of riches. And this is Jason Light and Toy
Bowles making sure that Baker Mayfield has what he needs
to be successful. A Mecca Buka coming in being the
number three receiver alongside Chris Godwin and Mike Evans. I mean,
just a big, physical wide receiver room and for an
undersized quarterback, it expands the strike zone. It makes it easy,
but it also creates a succession plan in case Mike
(20:30):
Evan moves on after this year and if he stays man,
who I mean, who better to learn from than a
guy who's been a perennial pro bowler, another guy who's
an outstanding playmaker and Chris gott I just think it
makes so much sense. And when I look at him,
Mecca book, he's a pro man. He is a pro
you see it. He is polished, he's seasoned, he has it.
(20:51):
To me, it's just a nice fit for what they
want offensively to do and how they want to do it.
And then twentieth pig Ver Bronco's taking Jedi Baron. We
talked about running back, I mean, Sean Bayton talked about
running backs that we all were kind of waiting for
the running back to go, but them taking look Man
one of the best defensive players that we've seen in
(21:14):
the class and arguably, like people say, like the best
corner because he can do so much jim Thorpe, w Wardwick,
versatile instincts, awareness, toughness. I just like putting him beside
Pat Sortan and being able to do so many things
in a secondary.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
On your way, Yeah, I'd love to know how scouts
front offices look at FCS players on the offensive line.
And I bring this up because Gray is Able goes
to Seattle at eighteen North Dakota State kid, you and
I were getting together for the East West Shrine. Bul
I told the story Timpolasek, who's got that offensive line mentality?
I mean, the guy must have dropped more fbombs in
(21:50):
a Fifthe conversation when I was when I was asking
him about his quarterback than anything, but he wanted to
talk about oh Li. Told me a lot about Zabel
and why he was going to be a next level player.
I do think a little bit about Trevor Penning as
another one that maybe hasn't lived up to the hype.
How do you go to the mat on a guy
that you've scouted when it's not power for football, it's
(22:12):
not the SEC. And yet clearly that didn't scare Seattle.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
It didn't. And it's funny because John Snyder, look, he
learned under Ron Wolf. Ron Wolf, Hall of fame executive
Green Bay Packers longtime general manager, and Ron Wolf was
not a small school fan. He wanted to see guys
come from big schools because guys with big schools and
winning predigrees understand what it's like and they're more likely
to transition very quickly into the National Football League. But
(22:38):
when you do take a small school standard And I
remember having this conversation with Ron I called him and
it was when I was scouting Vincent Jackson who was
at Northern Colorado, and I asked him what did he
see from Terall Lawns when Tera Lawns was at UT Chattanooga,
he said, when you're looking at small school standouts, do
they dominate their level of competition? And when they have
opportunities to play or level up, how do they perform?
(23:01):
The thing that probably convinced the Seattle Seahawks on Gray
Zabel his performance at the Seniu Bowl. On top of
his tape at North Dakota State, he held his own and
dominated the time in the singable, which gave them confidence
that it may take some time, but he has the
stuff to be able to be a successful pro at
the level.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Is there a position group that you guys would consider
at an FCS level that was maybe stronger because once
again it's a big boy up front versus and you
just name name checked a couple wide receivers.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Yeah. No, I mean look, I think it comes down
to the same thing, like how do they play when
they have to play against the competition that they will
see at the NFL level? Can you see him at
an All Star game? When they are at an All
Star game, do they hold it on? Do they look
out of place? If they don't look out of place, well, man,
how competitive are they with some of the best of
the best and the thing that you saw in the
tape on Gray Zabel at the game, he not only
(23:53):
held his own but he won plenty of reps against
top competition, which made it a figure. When you take someone
in the middle of the first round for almost small school,
you're saying, oh, no, no, this guy's gonna come in and
play play right well, play well right away, and his
position flexibility gives you a few options in terms of
trying to put him in a place where he can
be most successful that should help him succeed.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Yeah, no, I'm with you there. And once again, I
just think it's fascinating a remade Seattle team when you
consider Sam Darnold is now in the fold a wide
receiver room that looks like a shellman nothing, it's essentially
brand new, and yet with their first pick in round
number one, it's an FCS player.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah. Look, it's very interesting. But you know what also
was interesting The Pittsburgh stale is at twenty one, taking
Derek Harmon, Amario Hampton going twenty two to the La Charges,
Matthew Golden going to the Packers at twenty three, Donovan
Jackson to the Minnesota Vikings Giants, taking Jackson Dart Atlanta
Falcon has taken James Fears Junior at twenty six, Malachi
Stark's going twenty seven to the Ravens, Tyler Williams coming
(24:54):
off the board at twenty eight to the Detroit Lions,
Josh Connelly twenty nine to the Commander's, max Or Harriston
going to the Buffalo Bills at thirty and then we're
finished off. John Campbell going to the Eagles at thirty one,
and Josh Simmons at thirty two to the Kansite Chiefs.
And I'm gonna say this because I had a little
egg on my face. Matthew Gold and breaking the streak.
(25:15):
The Green Bay Packers took a wide receiver twenty three overall,
first time since two thousand and two that they have
taken a wide receiver in the first round. You already
had the end deal, you baiting me into it, so
right there and look he goes. I am surprised, but
then I'm not only because when you paid Jordan Love
(25:36):
the kind of money that they paid him, you want
to make sure that he has success. Josh Jacobs said, man,
we need a number one receiver. We need a guy,
and for your starting running back. We ran for over
thirteen hundred yards to say that we need a number
one receiver. It means that he feels the impact of
not having that. Either the box is clouded, the offense
(25:56):
doesn't go. It's just a little different. He needs more
room and he know what and number one receiver would
do for him. And so him calling out for a
number one receiver maybe the front off his listen. And
they decided that Matthew Golden was going to be a guy.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Kind of weird man. They listening to him, but it
wasn't Rogers kind of jumping up and down for a
couple of seasons hoping to get one of these players.
One observation here, and I'm gonna steal with something that
David Carr had told me because at the end of
the season, DC and I were talking. I said, hey, man,
Green Bay is a really good team that's so close.
This is a young receiver room. Last year was first
(26:29):
and second year of players that were their contributors. They
go again in round number one and they take a wide,
but not again. They do it for the first time
to two thousand and two, but they double down in
terms of trying to add some weapons there. I said, DC, like,
what do they need? And he said, the one thing
that I would point to is is a guy that
could take it over the top, Like who's that speedzer,
who can stretch the defenses, who can get you really
(26:50):
those big explosive plays. And Matthew Golden seems to be
able to check that box just based off of the
speed level. And I know, obviously you got to watch
a ton of him at Texas. It did feel like
when they needed a big play, he was the obvious
target and.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
That was really apparent when he watched it in the playoff,
when they needed a play, they went to him, and look,
there was another decorated player opposite of Isaiah Bond, But
when it came down to it, the ball went to
Matthew Golden. And the fact that he went from Houston
to Texas and kind of swiped the number one role
from others that look, this speaks volumes about his play.
Now someone else. And we were talking about the Atlanta
(27:25):
Falcons trading. They got Jalen Walker at fifteen, but James
Pierce at twenty six. You talked about the Falcons liking
their moves. What was it about these power moves?
Speaker 1 (27:34):
That you love the fact that this has been a
team so deficient at creating pressure on quarterbacks. I was
fortunate enough to be down in Atlanta in August for
training camp, and you talk to the fans down there,
you talk to their coaching staff. Terry Fotteau was one
of our guests, and it was abundantly clear, Hey, like,
we need to be better on the defensive side. They
were thirty first in the NFL in sacks a season ago.
(27:57):
I don't think it was much better two seasons ago,
and yet it didn't get better last season. And I
think what's fascinating is they took a page out of
what the Eagles did a year ago and say, hey,
we got some questions on that secondary. We're gonna double dip.
We're going to take two guys in round number one.
I think the Falcons were ridiculously aggressive. I love that
they were aggressive last year in a different regard by
taking Michael Pennix when they did, and then this year
(28:19):
they said, you know what, We're not going to have
that excuse and in division that is gettable. Right now.
They gotta feel Pennix can ball. We feel good about
him being a missing piece and if we're remotely better
on the defensive side. Maybe that's enough to really push
a Tampa Bay squad.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Dude, they are all in. They made an aggressive move
a year ago when they got Michael Penix while they
had Kirk Cousins already in the building. The incadn't even
drive it on this contract, and they go and get
a number one pick. And then this year, Terry final
goes doubles down very aggressive to go and get James
Pennis to pair him with Jalen Walker. And we can
say a lot of things about what they have, but
now they have two guys that can get after the passer,
(28:54):
albeit in different ways. Jalen Walker, being a hybrid linebacker,
can play inside off ball but then down and come
off the edge, which should make him a really intriguing
and impressive blitzer. And then James Spears, who can line up,
come off the edge and win with speed and just explosiveness.
It is gon'na be fun to watch this Atlanta Falcon
team kind of get it together. And one thing that
(29:16):
you have to understand when you're a team builder, you're
building your team to also play in your stadium. So
these two fast guys playing on a turf, it's the
Mercedes Benz Dome, whatever we call it. But being able
to get off that that should certainly helped them. And
I want to go to pick right after Pierce comes
off the boards, Malachot starts going to the Baltimore Ravens.
(29:39):
The Ravens for years have traditionally drafted just really good
footballs at football players at all levels of the draft,
and Starts been a high IQ player, a guy that's
a combo safety mining he can play in the box
and play in the deep middle, a guy who really
compliments Kyle Hamilton will and man, look, I know they
had gotten good player from a Darius Washington, but for
(29:59):
two first round safeties, that secondary is going to get
back to playing the way that they played when they
played really good defense in the past.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Where did you have Starks going? Was is this the
right range? I only asked because a couple of years ago,
Kyle Hamilton we didn't talk about. I don't remember the exact.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Number, fourteen, four and fourteen, but he was Look, he
was rated as a top five player in the draft.
Class goes to the combine, doesn't run faster. Then, as
we're prone to do, we overthink it and very similar
to Malachos Starks. He was the number one safety heading
into the combine. Nick emin Warrior had a great combine
and kind of stole Starks his thunder because he was
(30:37):
so impressive as a six to four athlete and those things.
But the Ravens, because I know this, they put their
pencils down before they get to the combine. Their grades
and stuff are all in. They're done with the process
before they get to the combine, so they're not swayed
by the workouts. Their grades and their things are done
off the tape and off the tape. Malachis Starks was
(30:58):
an impressive player, not only last season, but a season before.
You saw a ton of plays, a ton of reactions
and instincts and big plays. And that's why at twenty
seven he was the right fit for them.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Yeah, the rich get richer. I've been saying this for
two seasons now that the Baltimore Ravens have the best
roster in the NFL that hasn't culminated into a Super
Bowl championship. A couple of years ago obviously got close.
It was the Kansas City Chiefs beating them in Baltimore
and even being in Baltimore in August. You could feel
that in the conversations with the players they were referencing that.
(31:30):
And then they got better somehow, and Derek Henry comes
aboard and they're they're rolling. Save Flowers has a breakout
season and yet once again falling just short. I just
wonder if a piece like this gets them this much closer,
because I still think it comes down to how do
you learn from some of your losses because you can't
even can't point at the roster buck like.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
They gonna make plays like they're gonna make plays, cause
their thing has little to do with the talent and
more to do with the execution. The effort is there,
the execution has to be better in the those key moments.
Last pick that I want to talk about, John Campbell
going to the field of Eagles. Another example of Howie
Roseman doing what Howie Roseman does. He's not a grade
to He's not afraid to move up, even though it
(32:11):
was just flipping a spot to go and get a linebacker.
And you gotta remember, the Eagles never go after the linebackers.
It was a position that they didn't value in their model,
whether it's their analytics or just a philosophical standpoint, they
didn't really see a lot of value in getting linebackers high.
But lo and behold, joh Campbell is the pick. And
(32:32):
maybe I'll say this. He was the pick for them
because not only is the off ball linebacker, but because
he's so effective coming off the edge. That is the
only way they could have said Vic Fangio had to
be And Howie Roseman's saying no, no, I'm telling you, if
we get him in we can do these things with him.
He can be effective, really intriguing, anticing pick for the philadelp.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Hgles all Right, I go throw something in your way
on day two. Okay, here we got I'm not going
to ask you when should Dor Sanders gets drafted. I'm
going to ask you, does Tyler, Schucker, Jell and Milroll
go ahead head of Shador?
Speaker 2 (33:03):
They shouldn't. But now I'm nervous. I didn't think Jackson
Dart would go. When I look at the board, I'm saying,
you got the Browns right away at thirty three, and
then I think you have the Raiders at thirty six
or thirty seven. To me, Shadure Sanders to the Raiders
would be the best pick and the reason why is
the comparison for me, Wish's Jewer Sanders would be either
(33:27):
Jerry Goff or Gino Smith. And so if you get
him and you put him behind it, and look, I
know people were like, well they got a backup quarterback,
and ain't O'Connell in those things. I hear that, But
I just think the relationship tom Brady looking look, it's
overblown a little bit, even if Shaduer told me that,
but Tom Brady being there, tom Brady kind of knowing
what he's about, being able to learn that, to me,
(33:48):
it would fit. I'm not saying that Cleveland wouldn't be fit,
but man, if I could pick it for him, I
would pick the Raiders.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
It's gonna be wild here because I think there's got
to be some concerns injury wise. For Tyler Shuck, I
made this reference before I got to see him a
ton when he was at Oregon. It feels like he's
a step away from collecting Social Security. He's been around
for so long. But I know all the reports coming
out of the Senior Bowl as he's impressive. I look
at those traits though. For Jalen Milroll, I remember the
(34:14):
first time I watched him in a game. I'm like, damn, Like,
this dude is just he's so different out there. And
that's where I start to hedge a little bit and go, Hey,
which guy, which quarterback is it going to be? That's
gonna hear his name called next, and maybe it's Sanders
or maybe it's one of those other players.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Look, it should be fascinating to watch. That was this
week's Hot or Not segment, brought to you by with
Sabi how cloud storage, store more and do more with
your data. Try them for free at wassabi dot com.
Yeah this was fun.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Yeah, man, I appreciate the we spent We.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Spent four hours doing the drafting, and we spent a
little extra time doing a podcast. We gotta get you
on the podcast again.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Yeah, man, we went over time on this one. And
then it's me and you the rest of the way.
On Day two and day three, Day three on Saturday,
you're gonna be ready to kill. I promise.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
Maybe maybe I got your coffee because I know I
know this, we're gonna have to have some runners or whatever.
We went to the whole first round without having runners
bringing coffee and treats and all that. When we go
rounds four through seven, some people gonna have to get
on the move. We're gonna have to get.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
A Starbucks to kind of I shouldn't even drop that,
but the coffee plays with the little green and signy,
and so we're gonna need them to kind of drop
some coffee.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Can I just look for people who don't know Buck
and I love our caffee. We've traveled down the road before.
He says that I'm picky. I drink cole Brew black.
This dude comes in. I'll never forget this and you'll
never be able to say anything to me. Your your
Starbucks cup.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Said, They already, they already are made. Those are pre
made comments on those things. But look, this was a
lot of fun. Thanks thanks for coming on. Move to
sticks yammer guys, make sure you tune in tomorrow night.
We have another podcast at the rounds two and three,
Day two of the Draft. Until then, we'll talk to
him
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com