April 4, 2025 • 22 mins
On this episode of Move the Sticks, Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks tackle some of the hottest pre-draft debates. Outside of Travis Hunter, could we really see just one wide receiver go in the first round? The guys break down both sides of the argument and why the current WR market, where top talent rarely hits free agency, actually makes the case for drafting one early.
They also dive into the ceiling and floor for defensive tackles Walter Nolen and Kenneth Grant, discuss why LSU tight end Mason Taylor would be a great fit for the Eagles, and react to the Patriots trading QB Joe Milton III to the Cowboys, showing how Eliot Wolf is following his father Ron Wolf’s philosophy of drafting and flipping quarterbacks for value.
Then, DJ teases a conversation with a source who believes Jalen Milroe could come off the board much earlier than expected. And to close it out, DJ highlights some of the biggest risers in his latest Top 50 rankings.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And now move the sticks with Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
What's up, everybody? Welcome to move the sticks DJ, Buck
with you, Buck? What's going on? Man?
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Man? You know what it is? DJ is a rat
race of the final month leading into the draft. So
you know everything's kind of crazy chat.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Yeah, no doubt it's It's definitely that that time of
year where stuff is flying around which can get you
some hot rumors, which is a good time to get
us too. It's time for Hot or Not brought to
you by with Sabby Hot Cloud Storage. Let's jump in
right out out the gate here, Buck, because we've been
talking to a bunch of people. It's kind of finishing
up doing a lot of non combined guys like pop
(00:40):
up guys, pro day guys that you know, chasing ghost
as we like to.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Call it during this time.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Yes, but mix in a lot of conversations and some
of the things you heard in those conversations kind of
perk you perk you up a little bit. And so
this is one thing I want to get your take on.
If we take Travis Hunter put him to the side.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
This was uh the uh this.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
I heard this from one guy, and I brought it
up with a couple other people and they did not
poop poo it. He said, if we say Travis Hunter's
out of the way, they're only going to be one
wide receiver going the first round.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
I can believe that.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
I mean, but Buck like this is we talked about
this on episodes ago on average five point six one. Like,
I guess if we you know, Travis would make it
two technically, I guess if he's you know, gonna be
majoring on that side of the ball. But I mean,
I and I don't disagree with it. I said, I
think that's possible. I don't think that will happen. I
think we will get you know, I think a Buka
(01:35):
Golden you know, McMillan. I think that between those three guys,
I think we see two of them.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Go at least, if not three.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
But there's a chance that everybody sits it out.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Uh did you? I believe it? So who is the
wide receiver that you look at that has the wow
factor that you're like, I gotta have them, and in
this class we're lacking that. Previous years, when we talked
about the first round guys, there was a wild a
sizzle factor that you were like, okay, like I did
it justin Jefferson, Jamar Chase, even DeVante Smith was coming
(02:09):
off a Heisman trophy. I mean, there were a lot
of guys that were drafted that had the sizzle. This
year there is not the sizzle. We're excited about Matthew Golden.
But when we look at Matthew Golden and an honest assessment,
if Matthew Golden is wide receiver one, why didn't they
treat them like wide receiver one at Texas? So it
leaves you wondering, like, that's that's odd. Abuka is really good,
(02:35):
really solid all around. But he's solid all around, high
end player, solid Ted McMillan, there's some things where we
want more urgency. We certainly don't like the comments that
have come to surface about not loving ball and not
watching tape like that doesn't help anything. So now when
(02:55):
we talk about the three top guys excluding Travis, they're
all enough questions to make you be like, you know,
maybe I'll go back and get it in the second round.
I think that's the difference. The other guys had real
live pop. We're not seeing not seeing wide receivers. We
do real pop right now.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
So here's the other side of the argument. And this
is from the third person that I talked to who
pushed back on it. And that's why I want to
have this chat with you because he said, yeah, but
he said, you realize two things. Look what the receiver
number costs right now, Like, look at how much how
expensive it is to pay for receivers. And number two,
quality receivers don't get the market anymore. They don't get
(03:35):
to the market. Because I was having a conversation with
a team about a scenario where I said, if you
had this wide receiver there and this defensive tackle there,
similarly great players for me, And I told him how
I had them.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
But I was like, I curious how you would stack
those two guys.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
And he was like, well, I mean if we needed
a defensive tackle and free agency, like there's going to
be one out there every year that we can plug
and play. He's like, receiver, if none of them get
to the market, and if any of the top tier
guys get close to the market, you're thirty million dollar dudes.
Like the number is so high. He's like, so because
of that, I think there's more value in taking the
receiver because because of that reason, that was his pushback
(04:13):
on that.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
My only thing about that is I worry about getting
too cute trying to approximate value with talent, Like it's
cool that we value the position and we want to
get the fifth year option and free agents aren't coming
to market. But at the same time, DJ, the expectations
are the expectations when it comes to a first round pick.
(04:35):
If you take someone in the first round, you expect
them to have a level of talent production and consistency
that is conmiserable with being picked. When they're picked, I
worry about taking someone for the sake of being able
to secure their services for five six years without them
ever showing the talent nor the projection to live up
(04:59):
to what we expect from a first round player.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Yeah, I think it's a I think it's a valid
pushback on that. I think it's I just wanted to
have that conversation because I think it's one of those
interesting debates that that's that's kind of raging out there.
Let me give you, let me give you another one,
because there's a couple of different conversations I've been having
that I'm curious to get your take on talking about
the ceiling floor. A lot of times we just do
(05:24):
that with quarterbacks, but we don't necessarily always do that
with other positions. So there was a couple of players
and I was going through it, and UH was looking
at and this is an interesting one, the discussion between
the defensive tackles with Kenneth Grant and Walter Nolan. That one,
that one's a fascinating one to me, but I do
think it's gonna be somewhat scheme specific in terms of
(05:46):
what you want your guys to do, and Nolan's more
of a pure three technique. Kenneth Grant I think, could
you know, could play some three because he's so you know,
he's so big and athletic, but he's you're gonna want
him more shade in the center. So a little bit
different in terms of their usage. But you've got Walter Nolan,
who I think kind of knows how to win as
a rusher and has got that upfield ability versus the
(06:09):
other guy who's so intriguing because he's three hundred and
thirty pounds and it's still kind of all coming together
for him. But that, like those are the kind of
debates and discussion. That's what's going on in rooms right now, in.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
That debate where you're talking about Nolan, ingrant to me,
I'm always going to offer the pass rusher over the
run stopper. We have said for years that this is
a passing league, and no matter how dominant you are,
stopping to run on first and second down, that knows tackle,
that defensive tackle that is strictly a plugger, he offers
no value when it comes down to winning time. Winning time,
(06:43):
Typically it is a passing situation. The quarterback has to
get it done. The pocket pusher gives you nothing. Walter,
Nolan in this scenario gives me an opportunity to keep
him on the field in those crucial moments. So if
I'm making a decision, yeah, I'm gonna go with a
guy who has an interior pass rush presence over the
guy that is heavily tilted tours being a run stopper.
(07:03):
Now saying they Grant can do it, but he's a
run stopper first pass rusher. Second. I think Nolan has
the opportunity to be a pass rusher, first run stopper secondary.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
It's that's a valid it's a valid argument and a
good way to look at it. I think there's more.
I think Kenneth Grant has a chance. I mean just
because of you know, Dexter was a higher, higher graded
player coming into the process, but you've seen him continue
to grow and get better as a pass rusher throughout
his career. So I think that's what you're hoping, that's
what you're hoping for there in that situation. But let
(07:36):
me let me jam through a couple more of these
bucking and uh, just full transparency here, Buck's got to do.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Who we got today?
Speaker 1 (07:42):
You got Jalen Yeah, I got a little get a
little one on one interview with Jalen Walker for Paths
to the Draft, So I got that coming up in
twenty minutes.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Yeah, so we'll we're kind of jamming through.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
I'll get through as much of this as I can
with Buck, and then I'll finish up on the solo front.
But a couple other interesting ones. Where'd you come down on, Uh,
Tyler Booker great Zabel.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Mmm, I am Tyler Booker. I mean Tyler Booker's camp
in that debate and the reason why I feel like
he's dominant at what he does. I feel like he
is a tempo setter, a dominant uh maler brawl that
he's going to enhance your running game. He's going to
add a little toughness. I love Zabel's value. I like
(08:25):
the fact that he is a multi positional player. I
feel like you can plug him into one of three
spots and he can start. Uh But to me, in
leaning towards like the more physical player of the two,
I would go Booker over Zabel.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
In the debate, Yeah, I ended up with the same.
I just think with Booker.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
First of all, I love Zabel and Zabel's got all
the you know, five position flex and it has been
great through the whole offseason. Everything else, I've seen Booker
go up against better players. I hate to use that
as the as the reason, but I've seen him perform
well against some NFL dudes, a bunch a lot of
NFL guys, and he's going to give me a firm
pocket and in a gap scheme, he's going to be
(09:06):
able to displace people and move people. Now, if I'm
an outside zone heavy team and I want to be
out in space and running and moving, then I probably
would go the other way. But that's the trick when
you're doing this on our side, without a team and
a scheme, you got to go with kind of you
know what works there. And to me, I know, man,
just get the right fit for this dude, and I
(09:27):
think he's got a chance to be a you know,
a Pro Bowl player early, like early in his career.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Now, I mean, I'm with you and Ded like, I
think it is about the right fit. And that's eighty
five percent of players we talked about being system players.
It's really important that they are matched with a system
that enhances what they do really really well. The only
about fifteen percent of players in the draft class in
the league that can come in. It doesn't matter what
they do, they're going to be transcendent enough to be
(09:53):
able to dominate. So yeah, fit in scheme is everything,
and I think with Booker in particular, the scheme is Look,
it's really important.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Yeah, all right, Next one, Mason Taylor from me.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I did my updated top fifty.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
He's my last thirty second player, so I'm I just
at some point time I was like, we'll just put
him in the top thirty two players. I think he's
the grade wise the way he reads what I saw
at the Senior Bowl, how he moved around at the
Pro day, he ran the four to sixes. So the
speed thing's fine. All the information people know we've got.
(10:28):
You know, we've got good relationships there at LSU. We're
dialed in there so to get the feedback and background
I've got on him there. You know, dad and uncle
are Hall of famers. That doesn't hurt. So he's my
thirty second player. But my question is the Philadelphi Eagles,
by all accounts, trying to move Dallas Goddard. I know
how he always likes to go big if he can.
(10:48):
He's drafted some receivers in the first round last year.
They took a corner in Quinna and Mitchell, you know,
but preferred to go big guys. But when you're picking
thirty two and you're going to send your tight end
potentially out the door and Dallas Goddard, I'm looking at
that going that makes a lot of sense for them.
Man Mason Taylor to the Eagles.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
I'm gonna say this. I heard how we recently on
a podcast and his insight is so great in terms
of being on the front end of it. And I
heard how we also talk about how they didn't handle
the Super Bowl the right way. In previous years, like
they held on to guys for too long, they were
a little nostalgic and sentimental. I think he has definitely
moved past that. He's used it as a learning experience
(11:28):
to move on from guys that are older because he
wants to retain a younger core who has several prominent
pieces that need to get paid, and the only way
to do that is to move those guys out and
to use the draft as a vehicle to upgrade the
talent while keeping it at a team friendly costs. If
Mason Taylor's to pick for them at thirty two, it
(11:48):
gives them a first round player for five years, someone
who I believe is a complete wide tied end. Look,
I think the bloodlines, the legacy, all those things. Jason Taylor,
Zach Thomas, that's torrific. He knows what the family business is.
But then the player that we see on the field,
there's not much that he can't do. DJ. Yeah, bottom
(12:08):
of the first round. Mason Taylor could be the third
tied end to come off the board, particularly when we're
talking about wide receivers not being worthy. I would rather
take someone in the first round that has a Greade
worthy of being selected there than to stretch and put
somebody in the first round who's not really a first
round player.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
I'd also probably put that pickup for sale too and
say if anybody does want to come back in for
a quarterback, if that's a possibility there, hey, I can
slide back. Maybe I can get Mason Taylor a couple
slots later. But to me, I'm just going through this.
I'm looking at teams and starting to hone in on
needs and what can go down, and I'm like, you
know what that one, That one makes quite a bit
of sense there. So anyways, those are some of the
(12:48):
hot button issues I wanted to hit on. That was
this week's Hot or Not segment, brought to you by
with Sabi Hot Cloud Storage, store more and do more
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Take a quick break and we'll be right back, all right, Buck,
I do want to hit you on one news item
(13:10):
here before I know you got to run here? What
do you think on Milton? The Milton trade to the
Dallas Cowboys from the Patriots.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Interesting? Interesting only in terms of you know that. Okay,
So for disclosure, Elliott Wolf is the son of Romwolf.
Ronwolf was a general manager for the Green Bay Packers
when I was taken there. Ronwolf, I would give a
lot of credit for not only extending my playing career,
but piquing my interest in the scouting game. One of
the things that Ronwolf always did is every year, every
(13:41):
other year, they believed in drafting a quarterback. You can
go back and look at the drafts from the mid
nineties to the mid two thousands, they always took a quarterback,
and so many times they flipped those quarterbacks into trade
commodities they then brought back stuff. Elliott Wolf has just
done the same thing and giving a preview, a little snapshot,
(14:04):
glimpse of what Joe Milton can do in the preseason.
Super talented, great athlete, all of those things, they were
able to get some currency back and they didn't even
have to really play him. He mopped up a game,
he showed up in preseason, and here they're able to
parlay it. To me, it's a little bit about Joe
(14:25):
Milton and what the Cowboys maybe seek comparing him to
what is available in the quarterback class. I think that
kind of speaks to that that they rated Joe Milton
versus the quarterbacks that could be available for them day two,
Day three. They want a viable backup. But also it's
the foresight to be like, oh no, no, no, we're always
(14:45):
in the quarterback business because it is such a valuable thing,
something that our buddy Howie Roseman has seen Andy Reid
do so successfully. To me, DJ, it's always smart to
get a quarterback, develop a young quarterback, and then let
the league tell us what you think of our quarterback
because a lot of times it ends up bringing back
stuff to you that can be good to help you
(15:06):
get another piece of the puzzle when you're trying to
build a championship team.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Yeah, and that was you know, we've seen this numerous
times where teams have at least gotten some value. Obviously,
the the Washington Commanders got value on the field with
Kirk Cousins after they took RG three and then Kirk Cousins,
you know, the injuries RG three, Kirk Cousins gets his opportunity.
Kirk Cousins end up eventually winning that job. But there
is you know, there is opportunities there to take guys
(15:31):
later on in the draft, and it's sometimes it's insurance.
Sometimes you can get those guys on the field. And
other times, what we just saw with the Dallas Cowboys
making this move here the Patriots, they were rewarded by
being able to spend that off into a trade. So
I'm kind of with you on you know, to me,
I think I would do it in the I would say,
(15:52):
in the sixth or seventh round every year, I'm going
to take one, you know, just just a flyer, just
gonna take up maybe trade back in the third, fourth round.
I'm get a little bonus, a little sugar there in
the six or seventh. Then I'm just gonna take a
flyer every time.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
DJ if we in the quarterback business, like why not?
People laughed at Howie and Doug Peterson was the head
coach at the time in Philly when they said, hey,
we want to build and have a quarterback factory. But
why wouldn't you Why wouldn't you want to?
Speaker 3 (16:18):
That was said after taking Jalen Hurts and they got
a lot of grief. R They got a lot with
Carson Wentz there, they got a lot of grief.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
It worked out, It worked out very well for them,
and I think more teams have to treat that position
as man, this is the big joker in a game
of space. This is the one that can parlay and
bring it back multiple times. If you can find a quarterback,
if you can develop the quarterback and showcase the quarterback
in a preseason game or even a regular season game,
(16:47):
gives you an opportunity to bring a whole lot of
things back. So makes sense to me. I think about
Kirk Cousins and the career that he's had. When the
Washington football team double down, take an RG three and
Kirk Cousins the same draft class, you should expand a
Day three pick on a quarterback just to see and
you can determine whether it's someone with tools and trades,
(17:07):
which is what Joe Milton is, which also DJ would
tell me I might get into Jailen Milroe game.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
I know, I knew Milinroe is gonna come up. I'm
telling you I talked to a team. Now this is sorry,
I should refraence.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
I talked to.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Someone very connected with the team who told me said team,
and I'll tell you off the air, but said team
was a was a Milroe team, and it might be
earlier than you think, like like second round.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Okay, Well, I can see that. So there are two
guys that I would put in this category tools category.
It's Mill Roe and then I'll say Tyler Shill would
be one that when you're taking him, you're taking them
just because of the tools and you're hoping it works out.
You're not taking them with a direct connection that they're
going to be the starter for your team. But I
want to experiment and kind of see what they could be.
(17:55):
To me. That makes it so. Look when I see
Joe Milton go, I am confident, boldly confident, Jayleen Mlbro's
gonna go, He's gonna go hired, and people think and
there's gonna be a gas the tools DJ.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah, it's like baseball.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
We're drafting on the tools, not the performance in a production,
but the projection based on the tools.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
That's why I said we were talking about this previously
from a baseball standpoint. His run tool is the loudest
tool of any quarterback in the draft. Like his ability
to run is better than anybody else's ability to do
anything else at that quarterback position. Get out of here, Buck,
You've got Jalen Walker, Go interview him. I'm gonna I'm
gonna get into some top fifty stuff here, but I'll
catch up with you.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
We'll be back again soon. Man, go go to work.
You got a date.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
I'm gonna I'm gonna go to work and we are
gonna talk about the Top fifty. Because I learned a
lot watching you kind of move up the way. I
was like, oh, DJ finally was like, you know what,
I'm not worried about the noise. I'm gonna go ahead
and make the move. And I saw that.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
By the way.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
By the way, my phone agents the day after the
Top fifty comes out a lot of incoming, a.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Lot of what's going on? Where's what are you hearing?
What you hear?
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yeah? Yeah, anyway, I'll explain you. Get out of here,
go to jail.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Last thing, last thing before you can do that. As
a rocker moving up, walk walker, Nolan moving up. I
think Jackson Dark moved up. There's somebody else, Oh, Benjamin
Morrison moving up to me. I think it's less about
them moving up and more about you saw them one way.
Then we feel like we do this full.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Circle thing all the way back around.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Hold up, let me trust the tape. So we're talking
about next time on the pot, all.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Right, see Bud there goes Bucky. You mentionined some of
those names. I'll give you some of the other movers here.
From the update on the top fifty, Nick amm and
Warri moved up four spots. The big physical safety from
South Carolina. He's up to fifteen for me. And again
in a draft where I don't know there's a lot
of sure things, I feel like I know exactly what
I'm getting with him as a big, physical athletic down
(19:52):
in the box safety. He could be a nickel backer.
You can blitz him. He can he can buzz underneath
uh and makes plays in the ball And I just
think he's a really really talented chess piece to have there.
Minnesota with him is the team I keep kind of
coming back to, is that would just be that would
be a fun piece there in that defense there in
Minnesota with Robert Flores. All right, let's uh sorry, Brian Flores.
(20:16):
Robert Flores baseball tonight, I want to say Brian Flores.
Donovanizeraku Buck mentioned him. He goes up five spots to
twenty five. The league is split on him there. I
think I'm a little high. I have him at twenty five.
I think I'm a little higher than most of the
league on him. There's people that, you know, question his power,
his bend. I was comfortable. I think the guy's just
(20:39):
a natural pass rusher. So I'm a little bit higher
on him than the consensus around the league. Walter Nolan
Buck mentioned he goes up to number twenty eight, I
think he's going to be long gone by then. You know,
he's again he's just really really talented and getting the
temperature of the league. He's someone I think he's got
a chance to go significantly higher than that. Mason Taylor aforementioned,
(21:02):
he's thirty two now, Jackson Dart just moved up to
a few spots. He was forty. He goes to thirty six,
and then Benjamin Morrison, you know, coming off the injury,
so he hasn't had a healthy process. But someone who's
to me is a really really gifted player. You go
back and watch him when he plays, when he's healthy.
There's a lot to like about him and with him.
(21:23):
The makeup, elite, elite, elite makeup. And I love the
fact that, you know, we got some smaller corners and
he's you know, he's over six foot, he's one hundred
and ninety three pounds, so he's got some size to him,
which I love. So tho, those are some of the
movers and shakers there on the top fifty list. All right,
well that's it. That's going to do it for us today.
(21:43):
A little bit of a quicker show again. We'll kind
of running all over the place during this time of year.
Bucks got a little path to the draft. I've got
forties and free agents coming up with Rosenthal, So be
on the lookout for that episode, which will drop soon
as well. So appreciate you guys. We'll see you next
time right here on of the sticks.
And now move the sticks with Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
What's up, everybody? Welcome to move the sticks DJ, Buck
with you, Buck? What's going on? Man?
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Man? You know what it is? DJ is a rat
race of the final month leading into the draft. So
you know everything's kind of crazy chat.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Yeah, no doubt it's It's definitely that that time of
year where stuff is flying around which can get you
some hot rumors, which is a good time to get
us too. It's time for Hot or Not brought to
you by with Sabby Hot Cloud Storage. Let's jump in
right out out the gate here, Buck, because we've been
talking to a bunch of people. It's kind of finishing
up doing a lot of non combined guys like pop
(00:40):
up guys, pro day guys that you know, chasing ghost
as we like to.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Call it during this time.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Yes, but mix in a lot of conversations and some
of the things you heard in those conversations kind of
perk you perk you up a little bit. And so
this is one thing I want to get your take on.
If we take Travis Hunter put him to the side.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
This was uh the uh this.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
I heard this from one guy, and I brought it
up with a couple other people and they did not
poop poo it. He said, if we say Travis Hunter's
out of the way, they're only going to be one
wide receiver going the first round.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
I can believe that.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
I mean, but Buck like this is we talked about
this on episodes ago on average five point six one. Like,
I guess if we you know, Travis would make it
two technically, I guess if he's you know, gonna be
majoring on that side of the ball. But I mean,
I and I don't disagree with it. I said, I
think that's possible. I don't think that will happen. I
think we will get you know, I think a Buka
(01:35):
Golden you know, McMillan. I think that between those three guys,
I think we see two of them.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Go at least, if not three.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
But there's a chance that everybody sits it out.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Uh did you? I believe it? So who is the
wide receiver that you look at that has the wow
factor that you're like, I gotta have them, and in
this class we're lacking that. Previous years, when we talked
about the first round guys, there was a wild a
sizzle factor that you were like, okay, like I did
it justin Jefferson, Jamar Chase, even DeVante Smith was coming
(02:09):
off a Heisman trophy. I mean, there were a lot
of guys that were drafted that had the sizzle. This
year there is not the sizzle. We're excited about Matthew Golden.
But when we look at Matthew Golden and an honest assessment,
if Matthew Golden is wide receiver one, why didn't they
treat them like wide receiver one at Texas? So it
leaves you wondering, like, that's that's odd. Abuka is really good,
(02:35):
really solid all around. But he's solid all around, high
end player, solid Ted McMillan, there's some things where we
want more urgency. We certainly don't like the comments that
have come to surface about not loving ball and not
watching tape like that doesn't help anything. So now when
(02:55):
we talk about the three top guys excluding Travis, they're
all enough questions to make you be like, you know,
maybe I'll go back and get it in the second round.
I think that's the difference. The other guys had real
live pop. We're not seeing not seeing wide receivers. We
do real pop right now.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
So here's the other side of the argument. And this
is from the third person that I talked to who
pushed back on it. And that's why I want to
have this chat with you because he said, yeah, but
he said, you realize two things. Look what the receiver
number costs right now, Like, look at how much how
expensive it is to pay for receivers. And number two,
quality receivers don't get the market anymore. They don't get
(03:35):
to the market. Because I was having a conversation with
a team about a scenario where I said, if you
had this wide receiver there and this defensive tackle there,
similarly great players for me, And I told him how
I had them.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
But I was like, I curious how you would stack
those two guys.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
And he was like, well, I mean if we needed
a defensive tackle and free agency, like there's going to
be one out there every year that we can plug
and play. He's like, receiver, if none of them get
to the market, and if any of the top tier
guys get close to the market, you're thirty million dollar dudes.
Like the number is so high. He's like, so because
of that, I think there's more value in taking the
receiver because because of that reason, that was his pushback
(04:13):
on that.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
My only thing about that is I worry about getting
too cute trying to approximate value with talent, Like it's
cool that we value the position and we want to
get the fifth year option and free agents aren't coming
to market. But at the same time, DJ, the expectations
are the expectations when it comes to a first round pick.
(04:35):
If you take someone in the first round, you expect
them to have a level of talent production and consistency
that is conmiserable with being picked. When they're picked, I
worry about taking someone for the sake of being able
to secure their services for five six years without them
ever showing the talent nor the projection to live up
(04:59):
to what we expect from a first round player.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Yeah, I think it's a I think it's a valid
pushback on that. I think it's I just wanted to
have that conversation because I think it's one of those
interesting debates that that's that's kind of raging out there.
Let me give you, let me give you another one,
because there's a couple of different conversations I've been having
that I'm curious to get your take on talking about
the ceiling floor. A lot of times we just do
(05:24):
that with quarterbacks, but we don't necessarily always do that
with other positions. So there was a couple of players
and I was going through it, and UH was looking
at and this is an interesting one, the discussion between
the defensive tackles with Kenneth Grant and Walter Nolan. That one,
that one's a fascinating one to me, but I do
think it's gonna be somewhat scheme specific in terms of
(05:46):
what you want your guys to do, and Nolan's more
of a pure three technique. Kenneth Grant I think, could
you know, could play some three because he's so you know,
he's so big and athletic, but he's you're gonna want
him more shade in the center. So a little bit
different in terms of their usage. But you've got Walter Nolan,
who I think kind of knows how to win as
a rusher and has got that upfield ability versus the
(06:09):
other guy who's so intriguing because he's three hundred and
thirty pounds and it's still kind of all coming together
for him. But that, like those are the kind of
debates and discussion. That's what's going on in rooms right now, in.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
That debate where you're talking about Nolan, ingrant to me,
I'm always going to offer the pass rusher over the
run stopper. We have said for years that this is
a passing league, and no matter how dominant you are,
stopping to run on first and second down, that knows tackle,
that defensive tackle that is strictly a plugger, he offers
no value when it comes down to winning time. Winning time,
(06:43):
Typically it is a passing situation. The quarterback has to
get it done. The pocket pusher gives you nothing. Walter,
Nolan in this scenario gives me an opportunity to keep
him on the field in those crucial moments. So if
I'm making a decision, yeah, I'm gonna go with a
guy who has an interior pass rush presence over the
guy that is heavily tilted tours being a run stopper.
(07:03):
Now saying they Grant can do it, but he's a
run stopper first pass rusher. Second. I think Nolan has
the opportunity to be a pass rusher, first run stopper secondary.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
It's that's a valid it's a valid argument and a
good way to look at it. I think there's more.
I think Kenneth Grant has a chance. I mean just
because of you know, Dexter was a higher, higher graded
player coming into the process, but you've seen him continue
to grow and get better as a pass rusher throughout
his career. So I think that's what you're hoping, that's
what you're hoping for there in that situation. But let
(07:36):
me let me jam through a couple more of these
bucking and uh, just full transparency here, Buck's got to do.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Who we got today?
Speaker 1 (07:42):
You got Jalen Yeah, I got a little get a
little one on one interview with Jalen Walker for Paths
to the Draft, So I got that coming up in
twenty minutes.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Yeah, so we'll we're kind of jamming through.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
I'll get through as much of this as I can
with Buck, and then I'll finish up on the solo front.
But a couple other interesting ones. Where'd you come down on, Uh,
Tyler Booker great Zabel.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Mmm, I am Tyler Booker. I mean Tyler Booker's camp
in that debate and the reason why I feel like
he's dominant at what he does. I feel like he
is a tempo setter, a dominant uh maler brawl that
he's going to enhance your running game. He's going to
add a little toughness. I love Zabel's value. I like
(08:25):
the fact that he is a multi positional player. I
feel like you can plug him into one of three
spots and he can start. Uh But to me, in
leaning towards like the more physical player of the two,
I would go Booker over Zabel.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
In the debate, Yeah, I ended up with the same.
I just think with Booker.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
First of all, I love Zabel and Zabel's got all
the you know, five position flex and it has been
great through the whole offseason. Everything else, I've seen Booker
go up against better players. I hate to use that
as the as the reason, but I've seen him perform
well against some NFL dudes, a bunch a lot of
NFL guys, and he's going to give me a firm
pocket and in a gap scheme, he's going to be
(09:06):
able to displace people and move people. Now, if I'm
an outside zone heavy team and I want to be
out in space and running and moving, then I probably
would go the other way. But that's the trick when
you're doing this on our side, without a team and
a scheme, you got to go with kind of you
know what works there. And to me, I know, man,
just get the right fit for this dude, and I
(09:27):
think he's got a chance to be a you know,
a Pro Bowl player early, like early in his career.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Now, I mean, I'm with you and Ded like, I
think it is about the right fit. And that's eighty
five percent of players we talked about being system players.
It's really important that they are matched with a system
that enhances what they do really really well. The only
about fifteen percent of players in the draft class in
the league that can come in. It doesn't matter what
they do, they're going to be transcendent enough to be
(09:53):
able to dominate. So yeah, fit in scheme is everything,
and I think with Booker in particular, the scheme is Look,
it's really important.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Yeah, all right, Next one, Mason Taylor from me.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I did my updated top fifty.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
He's my last thirty second player, so I'm I just
at some point time I was like, we'll just put
him in the top thirty two players. I think he's
the grade wise the way he reads what I saw
at the Senior Bowl, how he moved around at the
Pro day, he ran the four to sixes. So the
speed thing's fine. All the information people know we've got.
(10:28):
You know, we've got good relationships there at LSU. We're
dialed in there so to get the feedback and background
I've got on him there. You know, dad and uncle
are Hall of famers. That doesn't hurt. So he's my
thirty second player. But my question is the Philadelphi Eagles,
by all accounts, trying to move Dallas Goddard. I know
how he always likes to go big if he can.
(10:48):
He's drafted some receivers in the first round last year.
They took a corner in Quinna and Mitchell, you know,
but preferred to go big guys. But when you're picking
thirty two and you're going to send your tight end
potentially out the door and Dallas Goddard, I'm looking at
that going that makes a lot of sense for them.
Man Mason Taylor to the Eagles.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
I'm gonna say this. I heard how we recently on
a podcast and his insight is so great in terms
of being on the front end of it. And I
heard how we also talk about how they didn't handle
the Super Bowl the right way. In previous years, like
they held on to guys for too long, they were
a little nostalgic and sentimental. I think he has definitely
moved past that. He's used it as a learning experience
(11:28):
to move on from guys that are older because he
wants to retain a younger core who has several prominent
pieces that need to get paid, and the only way
to do that is to move those guys out and
to use the draft as a vehicle to upgrade the
talent while keeping it at a team friendly costs. If
Mason Taylor's to pick for them at thirty two, it
(11:48):
gives them a first round player for five years, someone
who I believe is a complete wide tied end. Look,
I think the bloodlines, the legacy, all those things. Jason Taylor,
Zach Thomas, that's torrific. He knows what the family business is.
But then the player that we see on the field,
there's not much that he can't do. DJ. Yeah, bottom
(12:08):
of the first round. Mason Taylor could be the third
tied end to come off the board, particularly when we're
talking about wide receivers not being worthy. I would rather
take someone in the first round that has a Greade
worthy of being selected there than to stretch and put
somebody in the first round who's not really a first
round player.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
I'd also probably put that pickup for sale too and
say if anybody does want to come back in for
a quarterback, if that's a possibility there, hey, I can
slide back. Maybe I can get Mason Taylor a couple
slots later. But to me, I'm just going through this.
I'm looking at teams and starting to hone in on
needs and what can go down, and I'm like, you
know what that one, That one makes quite a bit
of sense there. So anyways, those are some of the
(12:48):
hot button issues I wanted to hit on. That was
this week's Hot or Not segment, brought to you by
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Take a quick break and we'll be right back, all right, Buck,
I do want to hit you on one news item
(13:10):
here before I know you got to run here? What
do you think on Milton? The Milton trade to the
Dallas Cowboys from the Patriots.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Interesting? Interesting only in terms of you know that. Okay,
So for disclosure, Elliott Wolf is the son of Romwolf.
Ronwolf was a general manager for the Green Bay Packers
when I was taken there. Ronwolf, I would give a
lot of credit for not only extending my playing career,
but piquing my interest in the scouting game. One of
the things that Ronwolf always did is every year, every
(13:41):
other year, they believed in drafting a quarterback. You can
go back and look at the drafts from the mid
nineties to the mid two thousands, they always took a quarterback,
and so many times they flipped those quarterbacks into trade
commodities they then brought back stuff. Elliott Wolf has just
done the same thing and giving a preview, a little snapshot,
(14:04):
glimpse of what Joe Milton can do in the preseason.
Super talented, great athlete, all of those things, they were
able to get some currency back and they didn't even
have to really play him. He mopped up a game,
he showed up in preseason, and here they're able to
parlay it. To me, it's a little bit about Joe
(14:25):
Milton and what the Cowboys maybe seek comparing him to
what is available in the quarterback class. I think that
kind of speaks to that that they rated Joe Milton
versus the quarterbacks that could be available for them day two,
Day three. They want a viable backup. But also it's
the foresight to be like, oh no, no, no, we're always
(14:45):
in the quarterback business because it is such a valuable thing,
something that our buddy Howie Roseman has seen Andy Reid
do so successfully. To me, DJ, it's always smart to
get a quarterback, develop a young quarterback, and then let
the league tell us what you think of our quarterback
because a lot of times it ends up bringing back
stuff to you that can be good to help you
(15:06):
get another piece of the puzzle when you're trying to
build a championship team.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Yeah, and that was you know, we've seen this numerous
times where teams have at least gotten some value. Obviously,
the the Washington Commanders got value on the field with
Kirk Cousins after they took RG three and then Kirk Cousins,
you know, the injuries RG three, Kirk Cousins gets his opportunity.
Kirk Cousins end up eventually winning that job. But there
is you know, there is opportunities there to take guys
(15:31):
later on in the draft, and it's sometimes it's insurance.
Sometimes you can get those guys on the field. And
other times, what we just saw with the Dallas Cowboys
making this move here the Patriots, they were rewarded by
being able to spend that off into a trade. So
I'm kind of with you on you know, to me,
I think I would do it in the I would say,
(15:52):
in the sixth or seventh round every year, I'm going
to take one, you know, just just a flyer, just
gonna take up maybe trade back in the third, fourth round.
I'm get a little bonus, a little sugar there in
the six or seventh. Then I'm just gonna take a
flyer every time.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
DJ if we in the quarterback business, like why not?
People laughed at Howie and Doug Peterson was the head
coach at the time in Philly when they said, hey,
we want to build and have a quarterback factory. But
why wouldn't you Why wouldn't you want to?
Speaker 3 (16:18):
That was said after taking Jalen Hurts and they got
a lot of grief. R They got a lot with
Carson Wentz there, they got a lot of grief.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
It worked out, It worked out very well for them,
and I think more teams have to treat that position
as man, this is the big joker in a game
of space. This is the one that can parlay and
bring it back multiple times. If you can find a quarterback,
if you can develop the quarterback and showcase the quarterback
in a preseason game or even a regular season game,
(16:47):
gives you an opportunity to bring a whole lot of
things back. So makes sense to me. I think about
Kirk Cousins and the career that he's had. When the
Washington football team double down, take an RG three and
Kirk Cousins the same draft class, you should expand a
Day three pick on a quarterback just to see and
you can determine whether it's someone with tools and trades,
(17:07):
which is what Joe Milton is, which also DJ would
tell me I might get into Jailen Milroe game.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
I know, I knew Milinroe is gonna come up. I'm
telling you I talked to a team. Now this is sorry,
I should refraence.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
I talked to.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Someone very connected with the team who told me said team,
and I'll tell you off the air, but said team
was a was a Milroe team, and it might be
earlier than you think, like like second round.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Okay, Well, I can see that. So there are two
guys that I would put in this category tools category.
It's Mill Roe and then I'll say Tyler Shill would
be one that when you're taking him, you're taking them
just because of the tools and you're hoping it works out.
You're not taking them with a direct connection that they're
going to be the starter for your team. But I
want to experiment and kind of see what they could be.
(17:55):
To me. That makes it so. Look when I see
Joe Milton go, I am confident, boldly confident, Jayleen Mlbro's
gonna go, He's gonna go hired, and people think and
there's gonna be a gas the tools DJ.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah, it's like baseball.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
We're drafting on the tools, not the performance in a production,
but the projection based on the tools.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
That's why I said we were talking about this previously
from a baseball standpoint. His run tool is the loudest
tool of any quarterback in the draft. Like his ability
to run is better than anybody else's ability to do
anything else at that quarterback position. Get out of here, Buck,
You've got Jalen Walker, Go interview him. I'm gonna I'm
gonna get into some top fifty stuff here, but I'll
catch up with you.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
We'll be back again soon. Man, go go to work.
You got a date.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
I'm gonna I'm gonna go to work and we are
gonna talk about the Top fifty. Because I learned a
lot watching you kind of move up the way. I
was like, oh, DJ finally was like, you know what,
I'm not worried about the noise. I'm gonna go ahead
and make the move. And I saw that.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
By the way.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
By the way, my phone agents the day after the
Top fifty comes out a lot of incoming, a.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Lot of what's going on? Where's what are you hearing?
What you hear?
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yeah? Yeah, anyway, I'll explain you. Get out of here,
go to jail.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Last thing, last thing before you can do that. As
a rocker moving up, walk walker, Nolan moving up. I
think Jackson Dark moved up. There's somebody else, Oh, Benjamin
Morrison moving up to me. I think it's less about
them moving up and more about you saw them one way.
Then we feel like we do this full.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Circle thing all the way back around.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Hold up, let me trust the tape. So we're talking
about next time on the pot, all.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Right, see Bud there goes Bucky. You mentionined some of
those names. I'll give you some of the other movers here.
From the update on the top fifty, Nick amm and
Warri moved up four spots. The big physical safety from
South Carolina. He's up to fifteen for me. And again
in a draft where I don't know there's a lot
of sure things, I feel like I know exactly what
I'm getting with him as a big, physical athletic down
(19:52):
in the box safety. He could be a nickel backer.
You can blitz him. He can he can buzz underneath
uh and makes plays in the ball And I just
think he's a really really talented chess piece to have there.
Minnesota with him is the team I keep kind of
coming back to, is that would just be that would
be a fun piece there in that defense there in
Minnesota with Robert Flores. All right, let's uh sorry, Brian Flores.
(20:16):
Robert Flores baseball tonight, I want to say Brian Flores.
Donovanizeraku Buck mentioned him. He goes up five spots to
twenty five. The league is split on him there. I
think I'm a little high. I have him at twenty five.
I think I'm a little higher than most of the
league on him. There's people that, you know, question his power,
his bend. I was comfortable. I think the guy's just
(20:39):
a natural pass rusher. So I'm a little bit higher
on him than the consensus around the league. Walter Nolan
Buck mentioned he goes up to number twenty eight, I
think he's going to be long gone by then. You know,
he's again he's just really really talented and getting the
temperature of the league. He's someone I think he's got
a chance to go significantly higher than that. Mason Taylor aforementioned,
(21:02):
he's thirty two now, Jackson Dart just moved up to
a few spots. He was forty. He goes to thirty six,
and then Benjamin Morrison, you know, coming off the injury,
so he hasn't had a healthy process. But someone who's
to me is a really really gifted player. You go
back and watch him when he plays, when he's healthy.
There's a lot to like about him and with him.
(21:23):
The makeup, elite, elite, elite makeup. And I love the
fact that, you know, we got some smaller corners and
he's you know, he's over six foot, he's one hundred
and ninety three pounds, so he's got some size to him,
which I love. So tho, those are some of the
movers and shakers there on the top fifty list. All right,
well that's it. That's going to do it for us today.
(21:43):
A little bit of a quicker show again. We'll kind
of running all over the place during this time of year.
Bucks got a little path to the draft. I've got
forties and free agents coming up with Rosenthal, So be
on the lookout for that episode, which will drop soon
as well. So appreciate you guys. We'll see you next
time right here on of the sticks.
Hosts And Creators
Daniel Jeremiah
Bucky Brooks
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