Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks kick off the latest episode of Move the Sticks by breaking down the Cowboys’ trade for wide receiver George Pickens. The guys dive into how Pickens fits alongside CeeDee Lamb and what this move means for the Cowboys' offense heading into the season. They also discuss how Dallas stacks up in the NFC following their offseason additions.
Later in the show, DJ and Bucky use DJ’s Top 150 prospect rankings to grade how each team performed in the draft, assigning point values to picks based on their rankings. Find out which teams came out on top, plus get their picks for the best value selections from each round of the draft.
Move the Sticks is a part of the NFL Podcasts Network.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And now move the sticks with Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
What's up? Everybody?
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Welcome to move the sticks? DJ, Buck back with you, Buck?
Speaker 2 (00:10):
What is going on? Long time? No see man? What up?
Speaker 4 (00:13):
DJ? I missed you man. We haven't had a chance
to have some good football conversations. It's crazy because we
have the run up to the draft, then we have
the immediate reaction after the draft. Then we kind of
go on vacation and kind of decompress where we can
up DJ. I'm not gonna lie like last week after
doing Path to the Draft the whole season, last week
(00:34):
I didn't get I didn't accomplish much. DJ didn't do
a lot. I can't say that I really accomplished a lot.
I mean I got up and worked out a little bit,
but there wasn't a lot of work that was done.
And then I'm starting to get back into it looking
ahead the next year, because everyone was talking about the
quarterback class, so I was like, it's quarterback class really,
So then I started digging in.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
I was like, yeah, see what what there's a little
excitement and why people might have punted on some first
round picks this year, they have multiple next year.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
Because there's a very intriguing collection of quarterbacks that can
hit the market next year.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah, no doubt.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
It's that time of year too for me, where it's
fun to like, Okay, let let the last draft settle
a little bit, and we're gonna get to some of
the recap stuff because we didn't have a chance to
talk a lot about it, so we'll get to that today.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
We're still going to revisit what we just saw.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
But like yesterday I talked to my buddy at Ohio
State because I was like, what's next, what's coming? You know,
so like he kind of gives me a lay down
and don't worry buck Eye fans, I know you lost
a lot of players.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
You're gonna be just fine.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
So just kind of like making those phone calls, catching
up with people like what's coming, Like who are some of.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
The guys people were excited about?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
And then really truthfully, buck like, man, where is everybody?
Like where do people transfer? Like who's where?
Speaker 2 (01:53):
You know?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Like the the you know, the cow quarterback who's an
interesting player, he's in Indiana now, So like trying to
just kind of touch why.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Do these people leave and why are they here? And
who they with?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
And so it's kind of like it's like it's like
opening up a new book, is the way I would
look at it, Like we kind of finished the last
book was a great read, but man, this next one
could be a thriller. I'm excited about this next class.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Yeah. No, the class is different, and we are seeing
some of the fallout from NIL where people are staying
in longer. Look, I think that is a good thing
when it comes to development, that we've had so many
guys staying. I think the opportunity to play more ball
brings about a polished player. And I'm and I'm gonna
say this, and I use this from my Jaguars experience
(02:38):
in terms of talking to people down there how they're
going about doing business.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
DJ.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
There was that conversation about teams this year in the draft,
really putting that extra box on who really loves ball
because now that before we used to talk about guys
didn't get money until they got into the pros. Well,
now they getting money in college. And so what you're
able to better assess now is who really loves it
and who is doing it because oh this is cool
(03:04):
to do. I've made some money and all this that
has been a huge conversation. The passion really matters, and
the way people are judging it DJ is who opts
into stuff. So at an opportunity where you could sit
out a bowl game or not, do you opt in
or do you opt out? When you have an opportunity
(03:24):
to go to the Senior Bowl, do you do the
practices but then opt out the game? Or do you
do everything? Because that's who you're about. When you have
a chance to work out at the combine, do you
opt in or do you opt out? They're beginning to
make these assessments on and the guys that really love ball,
they want to take advantage of every opportunity they have
(03:45):
to show people that they love ball. That is kind
of becoming a separating factor between those guys that kind
of stay on the board and those guys that are like, yeah,
he's good, but he's not for us.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Yeah, you know that's going to get me to my
point here because I want to get to Its time
for Hot or Not brought to you by with Sabi
Hot Clouds Storage because you know Bucket, I think you
can you can learn a lot through that process who
ops in. You're trying to find those guys with football character,
and I think that there's still more we need more data,
(04:16):
like we need more time to be able to sort out, Okay,
how much of a difference is this really, But I
think that is definitely a point people are making. The
one thing I want to hit on with you is
I've learned over the years to be anti immediate results
and opinions on these mini camps. Man Like, over the years,
there's been too many times like I've got the Zach
(04:36):
Wilson throws from the first first couple of practice with
the Jets. I've heard the feedback about guys and how
impressive they were. So I don't want to throw cold
water on people getting excited right now, but I do
want to just kind of as we kick this thing
off here, just just be a little cautionary with the
stuff that we're hearing this time. Let' at least get
to training camp and get the pads on and get
the real football before we start getting either too high
(04:58):
or too low based off what we're hearing. Remember, Jamar
Chase was dropping balls and many can't like that.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
And I think you dropped balls in the first two
preseason games and everyone was on him, and then he
ended up like being a dog, just absolutely killing it.
Like everyone will acclimate to the pro game at a
different pace. In a perfect world, you would like to
see your top guys kind of jump into it and
assimilate to the game. But it's a different game, and
(05:24):
it doesn't matter whether you're first round to undrafted free agent.
There's a transitional period that everyone has to undergo before
they're ready to be a pro.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah, it's it's just a good reminder like that.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
We're gonna take it all in and get all this
information we can on guys and how they're performing in
those things, but just be a little bit careful here.
So I want to make sure we before we got
anything else. I wanted to put that little cautionary note
out there. That was this week's Hot or Not segment,
brought to you by with Sabbi Hot Cloud Storage, store
more and do more with your data. Try them for
free at Withsabbi dot com.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Buck the uh. But we're gonna get to this draft
here and in it.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
But before we do that, we haven't had a chance
to talk about some of the things that have happened
around the league. I don't think we've talked about the
Pickens thing. What was your takeaway on George Pickens the
Cowboys A few different things.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
It's funny, right because leading up to the draft, on
one of our shows pass to the Draft, you said,
I feel like I need the Cowboys to be bold,
and I think at the time you propose them moving
up to take Travis Hunter, something to ignite, upgrade the talent,
get their fan base excited, all of those things. So
they didn't do that. On draft night. They went the
(06:32):
course that the Cowboys are typically gone when they mean good.
They added another offensive lineman to kind of create that
wall that they love to have up front. But then
post draft they go and get a guy who has
superstar talent in George Pickens to pair opposite CD Lamb. Now,
as a player, George Pickens is tantalizing. I mean, he
has size, he has speed, he has athleticism, ball skills,
(06:56):
he has a big game mentality. The bigger the game,
better he plays. But there's the stuff that you worry
about when he's not engaged in the game, whether it's
through a lack of activity he can kind of shut down,
or an immaturity about him where he doesn't bring his
best effort all the time. You just wonder in that
(07:18):
locker room, in that city, for that team, how does
that play out? Do we get the best of George
Pickens or do we see the worst of George Pickens
as he's pining for a new contract.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
I'm going back through because I wanted to look this up,
So I'm looking at who the next best pass catcher
was with Pickens. So last year would have been Friarmouth,
who was sixty five catches for six hundred and fifty
three yards. Let's go back one year before that, in
twenty three with Pickens, you had Deontay Johnson, you know,
(07:50):
seven hundred yards, five touchdowns that year. You go back
then twenty two. I think we're getting to the point
where this would be kind of his his first year
Deontay Johnson again eighty six balls but eight hundred yards.
My point being like he's never been paired with somebody
like Ceedee lamb ever So for the frustration, and I
(08:13):
think his expiration date had come and gone with Pittsburgh
for all the other reasons, and it was just the
juice wasn't worth the squeeze. And I said it when
they made the trade for DK metcalf. This is a
duplication like these. I don't see how this works with
these two guys. Like you got two guys to play
the two power forwards. You need to go get a
shooting guard if you're Pittsburgh, and he needs to go
somewhere where they have a shooting guard. So he goes
(08:34):
to pair up with Ceedee Lamb, who can do everything
at all levels. But really CD can just wear you
out underneath intermediate and now we can get pickings, kind
of stretch the defense a little bit, get some big plays,
some home run balls, and then now we kind of
free up even CD more. I just I to me
fit man like fit matters, and people think you're talking
on both sides your mouth when you're like, well, Pittsburgh
(08:55):
needed to move on. But then then I come out
and say, what's a bold move for the Cowboys? I
kind of like it. Well, how can you be both?
Because it's fit? His fit did not work with Pittsburgh
right now, And I actually like this fit with the Cowboys.
Speaker 4 (09:08):
I do, And so okay, I believe everybody. I believe
everybody has a sweet spot, and we all in nostalgia,
and so we tend to when we have success previous
in our life, we want to replicate that success. So
when I look at the Cowboys, I believe they always
want to go back to being the nineties version of the.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Is Alvin Harper? Are you gonna hit me with this?
Is Alvin Harper buck? Is that where you're going?
Speaker 4 (09:30):
He's the Alvin Harper stretched. I love Irvin numbers. Mike
Irving come in there and remember Alvin Harper was great
for the Cowboys. Wasn't the same when he left for
the Cowboys? He I want to say, Alvin Harper. Every's
like seventeen eighteen, maybe twenty yards per Cats like big
plays DJ. I just have this thing in my mind.
The favorite play that everyone loves to run is called
(09:51):
dagger right. It's the slot receiver runs a vertical. The
gal that outside runs a dig at sixteen yards. You
put a fast gut in the slot, lifts the coverage
and income ceedee Lamb right behind it catching. If you
collapse on Lamb, they throw it right over the top
to Pickens. To me, I just see this team playing
these two main games with Pickens and Lamb on the
(10:13):
same side, running all these combination routes where you can't
be right because you just can't deal with his speed
and athleticism that is a Pickens, and then the route
running and the craftiness of Ceedee Lamb. Even though I
thought Brian Schottenheimer was gonna come in and was gonna
grind it out. I still think they can do it.
But it's gonna look like the nineties version of the Cowboys.
(10:36):
That's how they did two thousand versions. Yeah, that's how
they did it.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
I mean they ran with him in that offensive line,
and then they had big plays over the top with Harper,
and then they had Irving on every third and six.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
There's nothing new. Canuck can't stop the slant, beat you up.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
So and both those guys I think down in the
red area too, are gonna give Dak kind of rangy
rangy guys to go get the ball to.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
I just wonder if they're good enough at tailback to
do what they need to do, because as excited as
the men about what they could be in the passing game,
because I look, you talk about Pickens, Lamb, Ferguson, you
have guys who have Pro Bowl potential, but to control
the game against the teams in their division, because remember
(11:17):
we always talk about you got to build your team
to win the division. They cannot get in the shootout
with the Philadelphia Eagles. They got to be able to
control the game by running it. Are they good enough
at tailback to run it? I think their offensive line
is going to be solid, but I still feel like,
are they special enough at back? That's what I would
need to see early in the year. Can they run
(11:37):
it and control and get enough pop out the running game?
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Yeah? I mean you out and get Tyler Booker.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
So they got the offensive lines with the Tyler's right,
they got Geyden Smith Booker, Cooper Beebe's a good young player.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
I'm with you.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
I think the offensive line is good. I like Ferguson
is a tight end. They're running backs just to refresh
everybody is Javonte Williams, Miles Sanders. Those are two veterans,
and they go out and get a couple of rookies.
Jayden Blue, who's going to be more of a pass catcher,
change of pace, speedback out of Texas, and then Phil MafA,
who's kind of kind of more that banger, you know,
a physical two hundred and thirty pounds back who can
(12:09):
play downhill on the Subduceva on uh there as well.
But I think that's a you know, that's where you
could kind of differ from those those cowboy teams were
talking about. There's no Hall of Famer in that in
that backfield.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
No, there's not. But you know, it always happens at
the end of training camp. There's always a veteran or
two that shake loose. There's always a veteran running back
that's hanging out there. They got it. You contact end
of July A you stand in shape, you feel.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
You were still you know who's still out there?
Speaker 4 (12:36):
Who pick Nick Chubb?
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Who I was going to say, JK Dobbins, I signed
it anywhere?
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yeah, JK.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
When he's been his whole career, when he's been healthy,
he's been good. It's just staying on the field. But
they might have enough backs there where you could say, hey,
you come in here. They've had some success with an
Ohio State running back in recent history, So maybe we
get him and and kind of ease him in and
try and preserve him throughout the year. They got other
guys to get the ball to. He'd be a nice piece.
I think he'd be a nice piece to what they
(13:04):
have there.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
Yeah, look, DJ, I'm not opposed to that. And we
know how this thing goes. Like the leverage now goes
back to the team, and so if the team plays
the waiting game, some of those players that are out
there looking for homes, they'll be able to get someone
to feel that I just right now. Look, it's still
a work in progress, but look, that offense is certainly
dangerous enough where they can win games in the passing game.
(13:27):
That offensive line is gonna be good. They gonna find
a way. Can they get the stops on defense? But yeah,
look they're much improved. And I say that knowing that
they can be much improved and not finish a spot higher.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
And it's a good division.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
I mean, look, Gavonta Williams, you know he's got ability.
I mean he's yeah, maybe he can maybe he can
find it there. Maybe that's a good fit for him,
and he can kind of emerge as that back that
we thought he was going to be when he was
coming out of college.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
But let's take a quick break.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
When we come back, I want to jump into some
of this draft stuff, give you some of the thoughts
here on some of these teams that I just based
on how I saw the players I thought did a
really nice job. So we'll get to that right after this.
So here's what our guy Jack did. Buck Jack Andrad
is the best researcher in the business. So we started
(14:16):
doing this a couple of years ago, put out a
top one fifty. So I like to kind of evaluate
drafts and instead of just willy nilly going a C
C plus B minus, like I said, let's do this scientifically,
like if we just figure out a formula to just
kind of based off this's how I saw him, and
then I give you an honest opinion of who I
thought did the best job. So it's pretty simple. Really,
(14:39):
Jack does a great job of just taking the one fifty.
The first pick is worth one hundred and fifty points.
The one hundred and fifty pick is worth one point.
So it's a way to kind of see who added
the most, you know, value according to that. And then
also we looked at who gave you the most points
and value over expected if you think about those expected
yards we use in foot ball. Now this is basically like, hey,
(15:01):
if you were picking twentieth and you got the tenth
best player, then that's plus ten in terms of you
know the value that I, at least how I perceived it,
how you got it, and everybody has their own opinions.
But these are the teams that shook out well just
based off how I saw the players, and we'll get
your thoughts on some of these draft classes. Number one
in terms of the total points, so just add all
(15:23):
the points together, just raw numbers. The Cleveland Browns were
number one with six hundred and eighty three points. That's
seven of my top one hundred and fifty players. Right
right behind them was the Patriots, and we talked about
them previously about we liked what they did they had.
They also had seven top one fifty players with six
hundred and forty eight total points. And then the Seahawks
(15:44):
were next with six one fifty players five hundred and
forty seven total points. So the Browns, Patriots, Seahawks, those
are the three teams who also showed up on the
most total points over expected, So not only to get
the raw number of what I think are good players,
but they got them with value. And that's so of
the five teams on those two lists, those are the
(16:06):
three Browns, Patriots, and Seahawks that show up on both
of those lists in terms of sheer, volume and value.
Speaker 4 (16:14):
You know, it's funny, right because there are people that
talk about this, and we've talked about it like the
draft is the ultimate crapshoot. No matter what we think
we may know about it, no one really knows. And
so you want to give yourself more opportunities to take
advantage of those players. And so when we talk about
the Cleveland Browns specifically, you talk about getting seven of
your top one fifty and being able to just throw
(16:37):
some darts in those rounds, like, hey man, that's a
really good player. We don't have an immediate need. Hey
let's he's good. We can't go wrong taking good players.
And some people are disciplined enough to chase talent as
opposed to chasing the need. And it appears that the
Cleveland Browns did that. The New England Pages we've talked
about doing that. If you want to build a good
(16:58):
roster man, you just got to take good players and
then figure out what to do with them once you
get him in the building.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Yeah, I feel like we've talked about those two teams,
the Browns and the Patriots, and we love what they did.
The Seahawks one was interesting to me too, just when
you look at who they added and some of the pieces.
If you just look on the offensive side of the ball,
Gray's Abel and we both loved him as someone who
can play up and down the line. It was a
glaring need for them along the interior of the offensive line.
So they bring him in the mix. You get Elijah Royo,
(17:27):
who was a super allent maker tight in the second round.
You take your shot on Milro, like, hey, go ahead
and let's take your shots. See what you get there.
Tory Horton, if he had been healthy, the receiver from
Colorado State, he goes way before the fifth round, so
that was tremendous value. So those are some of the
guys on the offensive side that I liked. And then
(17:48):
on the defensive side, even warri who is a first
round talented player. It just happens that a safety always
falls out. It happens every year. He was the guy
this year, so they get him in the second round.
And then Riley Mills on the defense side. I thought
he would have been a second or third round pick
if he had been healthy. You know, he has that
knee injury in the playoff game. The DT out of
Notre Dame. But that's a starting caliber player. So I
(18:10):
love what Seahawks did and what.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
I like about that, Like, I think it's a combination
of both. Right, Remember we talked about nostalgia and how
every coach, every scout is nostalgic about the great players
that they've been around. So let's talk about Imignori and
he comes in and naturally, John Snyd and those guys
can envision him being a faster version of Cam Chancellor.
(18:33):
But Mike McDonald has a closer reference by being able
to be like, well, look, I just had a big
safety at Cale Hamilton who really helped change our defense
and do those things. I think Mike McDonald being able
to go against Lamar Jackson every day can allow him
to be like, hey, let's take a chance on Jalen
mill Roe because I know he may be deficient in
some area, but man, a quarterback with that level of
(18:55):
athleticism can really be problematic for defense to the and
if you start thinking about those things where front office
and coaching staff are working together and kind of coming
with a shared vision of how they want to build
out this roster. To me, I think it's all over
the guys that they brought in. It is a combination
(19:15):
of Snyder and McDonald having these conversations about how they
can get the best and the players that they bring
on to the team.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Yeah, I think that there's a lot of clues that
were left and I'm going to try and remember this
as we go into next year. It's just looking at
the history of these gms and coaches and who's helped
them get into the chairs that they're in, because that
tends to be what they're looking to, you know, find
out there. That's what's They've ate that meal and been
very satisfied with the way it tastes and how it
treated them, and they'd like to go back and have
(19:42):
that same meal again.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
And there's nothing wrong with it. I actually like I
like that philosophy, Like if it's not broke, don't fix it.
Let's go after guys that we know or prototypes. Right.
I believe everybody has a sweet tooth, Like I like
VNA ice cream, I like certain cookies. I like those things,
So I'm gonna go and get that treat. When I
want to treat, I'm gonna go get that. So when
you're a team and evaluator, you want to kind of
(20:05):
follow that plan and kind of make it happen. And
for the Seahawks, who have always been able to look
prioritize athleticism and instincts for the players that they've drafted,
I think those traits show up. And you're right about
the Notre Dame defensive he was so good mis Riley Mills.
He was so good to the injury. But to me,
(20:28):
he strikes me as a worker bee, right, the worker
bee that you just have on the line. You look
at me like, man, this guy's played ten years. He's
played ten years in the league, because he just kind
of falls into the mix, kind of like a Kyle
Williams type, right that you just see them work and
work and work. They make a ton of plays and
they get after it. It's not just about the stars
that you bring. It's about the glue guys, the guys
that feel key roles. He has the potential to do that.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
So there's four other teams that showed up on one
of these two lists. So the three that were the
universally that I thought were the best, Browns, Patriots, Seahawks
show up on both lists. But then on the total
value you get the Giants and the Cardinals, they show
up on there, and then points and value over expected,
so the guys who exceeded where they were picking, the
Steelers and the Eagles both show up on there, so
(21:14):
which I always find it somewhat interesting, and I'm totally
open and honest about it that the way I was
trained and what I value in players, it's not going
to be a surprise that you're going to see, you know,
Steelers Eagles, because there's people in those front offices that
I really have the same education. You know, we grew
up the same, we were taught the same, we were
(21:34):
trained the same, so we're going to value the same
things in players. So there's a reason why almost every
year when I do this, the Eagles end up showing
up on there because we just kind of we like
the same things.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
So that's just kind of how that works.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
We do and we all impacted by our centers of influence. Right,
So I can sit here in wax poetic about Seattle. Well,
Josh Sider gave me my first job scouting. Josh Side
was also with me in Green Bay when I was
a player, and he was part of the front office.
And look, Ron Wolf was very impactful in terms of
not only how those teams were built, but how I
(22:08):
learned scouting and that other stuff. So yeah, some of
the value, some of the traits that I look for
in players, it stems from that same tree. And look
when when when the people were around have been very
successful utilizing that model, why would we deviate from it.
We've seen the success, We've seen what happens when it
goes right. And look, I understand it. I value a
(22:31):
lot of those traits that I learned coming up, and
I continue to try and expand my brain. But look,
that core is the core, like your core beliefs or
your core beliefs, and it's hard to really change from them.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
There was there was a little video. I think it
was like a six team minute clip. I didn't see
all of it, but the all I love these teams
that give you the behind the scenes look inside the
draft room. But the Eagles put one out on uh,
you know, on you know, all their draft process and
them trying to trade up to try and get up
to get your hot campbell. That was an interesting part
of it. But the more interesting thing to me was
(23:01):
prior to day three, Howie Roseman was in front of
the room, and they said, we're going to go buy position.
So for those who don't know, when you're in a
draft room, you have scouts who get areas, and then
after you get an area, you get a cross check position.
So you're in charge of a position and you watch
all of the players at that specific position. So he
goes to every scout at each position and he says, okay,
(23:24):
as we're getting into day three, we don't need role
players and backups here, Like who has And they're not
not saying it's a you know, it's a great shot,
but who has a chance to be a starter? Like
let's start with tackles. Who is the one player you
think that it could be three years from now, but
this player has starter ability? I'm not getting like, who's
got the high floor? They screw the floor that on
(23:47):
day three they are ceiling chasers. So who could potentially
hit and be a starter. And he went through every
every scout at every position they and they got a
bunch of those guys, even like McCord I think was
the quarterback. I think our buddy David.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
Paul loved him.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Yeah, Dave, he's got a chance to be a starter. Yeah,
Kyle McCord. Boom, Okay that we're going to target him. Okay,
let's go to the next position.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Boom.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Like and to me, they that was the way we
did it in Baltimore as well, Like I remember just
think that we've talked about this before, but well yeah,
but even just like, hey, we're going to take a
quarterback in the sixth round and it was Derek Anderson
versus Fitzpatrick. And I did the I had done the quarterbacks,
(24:28):
and look, and Ryan Fitzpatrick had a long career and
started and you know, really was more consistent career and performer,
ended up being a much better player.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Than my grade.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
But the question was posed to me, like who could
you see being, you know, who has the upside? Who
could be that I'm like, well, I think Fitzpatrick's going
to be a long term He's gonna be in the
league for a long time because he's so smart and tough.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
He'll be a backup forever.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
But I said, Derek Anderson six foot six, big arm, Like,
I could see him being like a starter like and
Derek Anderson didn't play as long, but Derek Anderson was
a Pro Bowl player for a year.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yes, Anderson had some of my highs.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
So even though Ryan Fitzpatrick ends up being the better player,
we were just chasing the chasing the ceiling.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
Okay. So DJ Dway I was taught like day three.
Day three is about the redeeming qualities. What are the
redeeming qualities that could make a player a starter or
something like that. So you talk about don't chase the
floor who has like we're swinging for the fences in
these things, like because we've already said that our first
(25:28):
three rounds, we're trying to find starters. So now these
are gravy picks, right, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
When we're in the fourth through seven and undrafted, we're
not expecting any of those guys to do it unless
we're chasing the traits. And you're chasing those superstar traits,
the things that could what we call the super powers
that could make them. Sorry. So when you talk about
(25:50):
Derek Anderson, who at height he had arm talent in
those things. He was inconsistent at Oregon State, but you're
chasing if everything goes right, what could he be. That's
where those things play out, and that's how you should
treat those things. And so you talked about the Eagles
and cal McCord. I honestly felt like Calu McCord was
(26:12):
one of the best gun slingers in this draft class.
Watching his game grow from Ohio State to Syracuse, I
was like, man, I think this guy has something to him.
So look, if I'm gonna throw a dart, I'm gonna
throw it dart as someone who has traits like that.
Another example would be last year Joe Milton in New England. Man,
he got a lot of traits. He got a big arm,
(26:32):
he has some of this. If I'm gonna go down,
I'm gonna go down with somebody who Man, if it
hits cool, if we strike out, it's not costly, Like
what are we doing? And so now the Patriots able
to parlay that into another pick. I mean, that's to me,
that's how you supposed to play the game.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Yeah, and look, that's our opinion on that. But I
think if you looked at the Patriot dynasty, the lot
of their picks. Now, they took a couple flyers, you know,
look at some of the conversions, you know, but a
lot of their guys were like, oh, this is a
special teams player, like he's going to just do this
or he's just going to do that, and he can
kind of just have this little role. We're going to
(27:09):
be the team of role players, so this guy can
do this one thing. Like there was not an upside
chasing mindset there. But I also think sometimes when you
have the Hall of Fame quarterback, the Hall of Fame
coach that allows you to.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Do it, that allows us rare but made no mistake,
this is the league where the most talented teams typically
win more times than not. It's an anomaly that a
team is not supremely talented that is one of the
last ones standing at the end of it. You have
to have talent to win. And look, I've heard this
from coaches. There is not a great coach who has
(27:44):
done it without great players. Like so, if you want
to be great, the easiest way to go down that
path is to go get a bunch of great players,
and that enhances your opportunity to.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Win, no question.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
All right, Buck, as we come down the close here,
I want to go through again. Jack has pulled out
who the best value was just based off my numbers here,
based off my rankings for each round. So I'm gonna
rip through them. I'll hit you, I'll get you the name,
and you just give me. Kind of one thought on
why you like it? All right, You're ready Philly. Johad
(28:17):
Campbell was my twelfth player.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
He was the thirty first pick.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
I love it. I know the Eagles don't get linebackers,
but after dealing with Zachbahn and seeing how versatile he
his versatility enhance their defense, I'm all about it. The
fact that he was there at the bottom of the
first round. Just from a value and a talent standpoint,
you have to put a trigger yep.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
And I think also Philly having so many these linemen
locked up and having guys on rookie deals, it allowed
him the luxury of being able to do this again.
I think it is a luxury to take a linebacker,
you know, running back, you know, tight end, what have
you in the first round. But you had to have
the rest of the house built. They got the rest
of the house built so they could take that luxury
and they get a big time player second round. For
obvious reasons. Mike Green to the Ravens was my highest rate.
(29:03):
He was my twenty first rated player. It was not
anything football related. He fell to the fifty ninth pick.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
Look, just had this conversation with a very prominent college
football writer and we talked about what I learned from
Baltimore and Ozzie Newsom, and I told you, I repeated
the story how Ozzie when I was a youngest gut
talked about the thing that translates sack production whatever, and
it was on the heels of Tyrell sucks sizzle coming
over ran a four eight, but was the CUA A
record holder in sacks. When I look at Mike Green
(29:31):
and I look at the sack production, and I look
at how he plays, and those things to me, he
had raven written all over them. I am not surprised
he ended up in Baltimore by.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
The way I spoke to that same writer.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
We haven't talked yet, but the article that is coming
out is going to be a fantastic And when it
comes out, I'm going to revisit what we said. Oh,
we'd all be on the record, so we'll be quoted
in this article. I have that we're gonna have said
person on because I want to discuss it with him.
Speaker 4 (30:04):
I had a chance to pull on an overport under
the garage.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Oh yeah, those quotes.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
All right, the third round. My let's see my fifty
fifth ranked player, Jared Wilson, the center from Georgia. He
goes ninety five to New England. So that was plus
forty points of value there in the third round.
Speaker 4 (30:28):
So Jared Wilson is funny DJ. And it's funny because
sometimes when we do the TV thing, we don't get
a chance to talk about the players, like so many
of the players are kind of glossed over because we
played it hims when it comes to TV. But look
at pivot. Jared Wilson was intriguing. I'm not surprised about
the Patriot thing. It like that person that position is
(30:49):
so critical movement. It's hard to find like smart and
athletic at that.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Spot test to be a yeah, I like that one.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Then we get to the fourth round, it's New England again.
This is why they were so I love what they did.
I mean, Joshua Farmer to me was my seventy seventh
player as a defensive tackle out of Florida State who
had a great Senior Bowl. They got him at one
thirty seven and I don't have it. I don't have
it front him, but I think there was some injury
concerns or durability long term question marks there, but as
(31:25):
a player shooting. At one point time he was in
my top fifty, Like he's a good player. They got
him in the fourth round.
Speaker 4 (31:32):
You know, it's funny you talk about Farmer being in
your top fifty. There are a lot of people that
talked about him and his work ethic and how hard
he played and what he would add to a team.
Sometimes DJ on draft weekend, things just get sideways where
you guys just gonna slap fall through the cracks through
no fault of their own. And every time we look
(31:53):
back at the drafts, like, man, I don't know how
it's got to get to the fourth round. He could
be one of those guys that we talked about when
we revisit the draft in a few years.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
I'm not a surprise the fifth rounder with Shador, who
was the last of my top fifty to go. He
was my twentieth player ended up going one forty four.
All the signs again we said everything you take with
a grain of salt. Here at the early signs look good.
At mini camp, I mean look for all the discourse
and all the conversation, and it got tiresome on all
(32:20):
sides to me, but the guy was a heck of
a lot better than one hundred and forty fourth pick.
I mean that nobody should dispute that, and he's going
to end up being a great value pick, I think.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
So.
Speaker 4 (32:32):
It might have upset the apple Quarde in Cleveland in
terms of how they wanted to do things, but they'll
look back and say it was a really great pick
for them. There's no doubt. People can say whatever whether
you like him or not. The personality, there's no way
as a player, he was a fifth round pick. There's
no way. And so the Browns pulled the trigger. They
created a bit of a circus maybe around it because
(32:54):
he's so prominent on social media in terms of like
people either love him or hate him. But there's no
doubt he's good. And whatever the clips are did he
put out there about him throwing and making passes, whatever,
it's not surprising. But now for him it has to
carry over into production when he gets his opportunity into
preseason whatever. I will say this though, I will say
(33:14):
his approach, the attitude and stuff that he's exhibited behind
the mic and on the field, and the way that
his teammates have talked. I would say that has been
a good thing, and I won't say it was negative before,
but a step in the positive direction in terms of
changing the perception maybe internally on how he would be
if he had an opportunity to be the quarterback.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Don't you think there's part of him that's just kind
of excited to actually, like go away, like this is
the first time he's not being coached by family. Like
it in some ways, and obviously Deon did a phenomenal
job of training him up and getting him ready to go,
and the guy's an NFL player, But there's also got
to be something like, man, it's kind of nice having
some new voices, like you know.
Speaker 4 (33:56):
A little bit. But here's the thing, and here's what
I cannot and I haven't been able to like, I
thought that there was gonna be a natural connection between
him playing under Pat Shermer, who Kevin Stefanski worked as
a quarterback coach under, and him being able to easily
assimilate into whatever the Browns are doing. I don't know,
maybe there's not that connection whatever, but I always thought
(34:17):
that that would be a natural thing. I will say,
listening to the micd up with Tommy Reese and how
they were talking to me. We've always felt like this
system was the right system for it. He got to
it not the way that we thought, but he ended
up getting into the system that we felt like was
best for him. Now, it was about him taking advantage
(34:38):
of the opportunity.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
One percent all right in the sixth and seventh rounds.
In the sixth round it was Jalen Reed, the safety
from Penn State. My seventy fourth player was one P
eighty seven, so that was a massive difference there. So
I liked him a lot more than where he ended
up going. And then lastly, not a surprise because it's
a quarterback, but quin Ewrs was my one hundred and
nineteenth player and he was a two one hundred and
(35:00):
thirty first pick. He almost went undrafted man seventh round
pick going to the Miami Dolphins.
Speaker 4 (35:05):
Unbelievable. But once again, DJ, the most important part is
fit in scheme. This is a perfect scheme for Queen Yours.
Haven't been around Queen Us since he was in high school.
We had a chance to talk to him in path
to the draft. Like to me, I think there's a
weight off his shoulders in terms of depressure. That's not
on him. He actually has an opportunity to go to
(35:27):
a place and just play ball without all the fanfare
and stuff for the first time in his entire life.
And we have seen lesser players coming there and play well.
And I said, we saw Skylet Thompson lead this team
to the playoffs and playing a postseason game. Quinn Ewers
can do this in this system. He has enough weaponry
(35:47):
around him if he has a chance to play to
have success. So it should be a good thing for him.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
No doubt. Excited to see what that looks like. There's
Zach Wilson in that room, TUA. That's an interesting preseason.
It'll be interesting to follow all those guys see how
they end up doing. Buck anything else you want to
get to before we jump out here. It's been great
to catch up, man.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
Man, it has been great to catch up. Like DJ,
It's fun because like as much as we talk about
the draft, like now, we guys going to camp like
OTAs and stuff, like football is kind of back in
a way, in a weird way, like football is back.
And so I'm sure you will probably pop in see
what the charges are doing. I'll get a chance to
go to Jacksonville at the end of the month and
(36:30):
kind of see what they're doing. So I'm excited to
see how the young guys are playing.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
No doubt.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
Well, it's been great to be back together, great to
chat some football. We'll do it again soon. We appreciate
you guys hanging with us and we'll see you next time.
Right here on, move the sticks.
And now move the sticks with Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
What's up? Everybody?
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Welcome to move the sticks? DJ, Buck back with you, Buck?
Speaker 2 (00:10):
What is going on? Long time? No see man? What up?
Speaker 4 (00:13):
DJ? I missed you man. We haven't had a chance
to have some good football conversations. It's crazy because we
have the run up to the draft, then we have
the immediate reaction after the draft. Then we kind of
go on vacation and kind of decompress where we can
up DJ. I'm not gonna lie like last week after
doing Path to the Draft the whole season, last week
(00:34):
I didn't get I didn't accomplish much. DJ didn't do
a lot. I can't say that I really accomplished a lot.
I mean I got up and worked out a little bit,
but there wasn't a lot of work that was done.
And then I'm starting to get back into it looking
ahead the next year, because everyone was talking about the
quarterback class, so I was like, it's quarterback class really,
So then I started digging in.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
I was like, yeah, see what what there's a little
excitement and why people might have punted on some first
round picks this year, they have multiple next year.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
Because there's a very intriguing collection of quarterbacks that can
hit the market next year.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah, no doubt.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
It's that time of year too for me, where it's
fun to like, Okay, let let the last draft settle
a little bit, and we're gonna get to some of
the recap stuff because we didn't have a chance to
talk a lot about it, so we'll get to that today.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
We're still going to revisit what we just saw.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
But like yesterday I talked to my buddy at Ohio
State because I was like, what's next, what's coming? You know,
so like he kind of gives me a lay down
and don't worry buck Eye fans, I know you lost
a lot of players.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
You're gonna be just fine.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
So just kind of like making those phone calls, catching
up with people like what's coming, Like who are some of.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
The guys people were excited about?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
And then really truthfully, buck like, man, where is everybody?
Like where do people transfer? Like who's where?
Speaker 2 (01:53):
You know?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Like the the you know, the cow quarterback who's an
interesting player, he's in Indiana now, So like trying to
just kind of touch why.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Do these people leave and why are they here? And
who they with?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
And so it's kind of like it's like it's like
opening up a new book, is the way I would
look at it, Like we kind of finished the last
book was a great read, but man, this next one
could be a thriller. I'm excited about this next class.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Yeah. No, the class is different, and we are seeing
some of the fallout from NIL where people are staying
in longer. Look, I think that is a good thing
when it comes to development, that we've had so many
guys staying. I think the opportunity to play more ball
brings about a polished player. And I'm and I'm gonna
say this, and I use this from my Jaguars experience
(02:38):
in terms of talking to people down there how they're
going about doing business.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
DJ.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
There was that conversation about teams this year in the draft,
really putting that extra box on who really loves ball
because now that before we used to talk about guys
didn't get money until they got into the pros. Well,
now they getting money in college. And so what you're
able to better assess now is who really loves it
and who is doing it because oh this is cool
(03:04):
to do. I've made some money and all this that
has been a huge conversation. The passion really matters, and
the way people are judging it DJ is who opts
into stuff. So at an opportunity where you could sit
out a bowl game or not, do you opt in
or do you opt out? When you have an opportunity
(03:24):
to go to the Senior Bowl, do you do the
practices but then opt out the game? Or do you
do everything? Because that's who you're about. When you have
a chance to work out at the combine, do you
opt in or do you opt out? They're beginning to
make these assessments on and the guys that really love ball,
they want to take advantage of every opportunity they have
(03:45):
to show people that they love ball. That is kind
of becoming a separating factor between those guys that kind
of stay on the board and those guys that are like, yeah,
he's good, but he's not for us.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Yeah, you know that's going to get me to my
point here because I want to get to Its time
for Hot or Not brought to you by with Sabi
Hot Clouds Storage because you know Bucket, I think you
can you can learn a lot through that process who
ops in. You're trying to find those guys with football character,
and I think that there's still more we need more data,
(04:16):
like we need more time to be able to sort out, Okay,
how much of a difference is this really, But I
think that is definitely a point people are making. The
one thing I want to hit on with you is
I've learned over the years to be anti immediate results
and opinions on these mini camps. Man Like, over the years,
there's been too many times like I've got the Zach
(04:36):
Wilson throws from the first first couple of practice with
the Jets. I've heard the feedback about guys and how
impressive they were. So I don't want to throw cold
water on people getting excited right now, but I do
want to just kind of as we kick this thing
off here, just just be a little cautionary with the
stuff that we're hearing this time. Let' at least get
to training camp and get the pads on and get
the real football before we start getting either too high
(04:58):
or too low based off what we're hearing. Remember, Jamar
Chase was dropping balls and many can't like that.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
And I think you dropped balls in the first two
preseason games and everyone was on him, and then he
ended up like being a dog, just absolutely killing it.
Like everyone will acclimate to the pro game at a
different pace. In a perfect world, you would like to
see your top guys kind of jump into it and
assimilate to the game. But it's a different game, and
(05:24):
it doesn't matter whether you're first round to undrafted free agent.
There's a transitional period that everyone has to undergo before
they're ready to be a pro.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah, it's it's just a good reminder like that.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
We're gonna take it all in and get all this
information we can on guys and how they're performing in
those things, but just be a little bit careful here.
So I want to make sure we before we got
anything else. I wanted to put that little cautionary note
out there. That was this week's Hot or Not segment,
brought to you by with Sabbi Hot Cloud Storage, store
more and do more with your data. Try them for
free at Withsabbi dot com.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Buck the uh. But we're gonna get to this draft
here and in it.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
But before we do that, we haven't had a chance
to talk about some of the things that have happened
around the league. I don't think we've talked about the
Pickens thing. What was your takeaway on George Pickens the
Cowboys A few different things.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
It's funny, right because leading up to the draft, on
one of our shows pass to the Draft, you said,
I feel like I need the Cowboys to be bold,
and I think at the time you propose them moving
up to take Travis Hunter, something to ignite, upgrade the talent,
get their fan base excited, all of those things. So
they didn't do that. On draft night. They went the
(06:32):
course that the Cowboys are typically gone when they mean good.
They added another offensive lineman to kind of create that
wall that they love to have up front. But then
post draft they go and get a guy who has
superstar talent in George Pickens to pair opposite CD Lamb. Now,
as a player, George Pickens is tantalizing. I mean, he
has size, he has speed, he has athleticism, ball skills,
(06:56):
he has a big game mentality. The bigger the game,
better he plays. But there's the stuff that you worry
about when he's not engaged in the game, whether it's
through a lack of activity he can kind of shut down,
or an immaturity about him where he doesn't bring his
best effort all the time. You just wonder in that
(07:18):
locker room, in that city, for that team, how does
that play out? Do we get the best of George
Pickens or do we see the worst of George Pickens
as he's pining for a new contract.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
I'm going back through because I wanted to look this up,
So I'm looking at who the next best pass catcher
was with Pickens. So last year would have been Friarmouth,
who was sixty five catches for six hundred and fifty
three yards. Let's go back one year before that, in
twenty three with Pickens, you had Deontay Johnson, you know,
(07:50):
seven hundred yards, five touchdowns that year. You go back
then twenty two. I think we're getting to the point
where this would be kind of his his first year
Deontay Johnson again eighty six balls but eight hundred yards.
My point being like he's never been paired with somebody
like Ceedee lamb ever So for the frustration, and I
(08:13):
think his expiration date had come and gone with Pittsburgh
for all the other reasons, and it was just the
juice wasn't worth the squeeze. And I said it when
they made the trade for DK metcalf. This is a
duplication like these. I don't see how this works with
these two guys. Like you got two guys to play
the two power forwards. You need to go get a
shooting guard if you're Pittsburgh, and he needs to go
somewhere where they have a shooting guard. So he goes
(08:34):
to pair up with Ceedee Lamb, who can do everything
at all levels. But really CD can just wear you
out underneath intermediate and now we can get pickings, kind
of stretch the defense a little bit, get some big plays,
some home run balls, and then now we kind of
free up even CD more. I just I to me
fit man like fit matters, and people think you're talking
on both sides your mouth when you're like, well, Pittsburgh
(08:55):
needed to move on. But then then I come out
and say, what's a bold move for the Cowboys? I
kind of like it. Well, how can you be both?
Because it's fit? His fit did not work with Pittsburgh
right now, And I actually like this fit with the Cowboys.
Speaker 4 (09:08):
I do, And so okay, I believe everybody. I believe
everybody has a sweet spot, and we all in nostalgia,
and so we tend to when we have success previous
in our life, we want to replicate that success. So
when I look at the Cowboys, I believe they always
want to go back to being the nineties version of the.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Is Alvin Harper? Are you gonna hit me with this?
Is Alvin Harper buck? Is that where you're going?
Speaker 4 (09:30):
He's the Alvin Harper stretched. I love Irvin numbers. Mike
Irving come in there and remember Alvin Harper was great
for the Cowboys. Wasn't the same when he left for
the Cowboys? He I want to say, Alvin Harper. Every's
like seventeen eighteen, maybe twenty yards per Cats like big
plays DJ. I just have this thing in my mind.
The favorite play that everyone loves to run is called
(09:51):
dagger right. It's the slot receiver runs a vertical. The
gal that outside runs a dig at sixteen yards. You
put a fast gut in the slot, lifts the coverage
and income ceedee Lamb right behind it catching. If you
collapse on Lamb, they throw it right over the top
to Pickens. To me, I just see this team playing
these two main games with Pickens and Lamb on the
(10:13):
same side, running all these combination routes where you can't
be right because you just can't deal with his speed
and athleticism that is a Pickens, and then the route
running and the craftiness of Ceedee Lamb. Even though I
thought Brian Schottenheimer was gonna come in and was gonna
grind it out. I still think they can do it.
But it's gonna look like the nineties version of the Cowboys.
(10:36):
That's how they did two thousand versions. Yeah, that's how
they did it.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
I mean they ran with him in that offensive line,
and then they had big plays over the top with Harper,
and then they had Irving on every third and six.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
There's nothing new. Canuck can't stop the slant, beat you up.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
So and both those guys I think down in the
red area too, are gonna give Dak kind of rangy
rangy guys to go get the ball to.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
I just wonder if they're good enough at tailback to
do what they need to do, because as excited as
the men about what they could be in the passing game,
because I look, you talk about Pickens, Lamb, Ferguson, you
have guys who have Pro Bowl potential, but to control
the game against the teams in their division, because remember
(11:17):
we always talk about you got to build your team
to win the division. They cannot get in the shootout
with the Philadelphia Eagles. They got to be able to
control the game by running it. Are they good enough
at tailback to run it? I think their offensive line
is going to be solid, but I still feel like,
are they special enough at back? That's what I would
need to see early in the year. Can they run
(11:37):
it and control and get enough pop out the running game?
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Yeah? I mean you out and get Tyler Booker.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
So they got the offensive lines with the Tyler's right,
they got Geyden Smith Booker, Cooper Beebe's a good young player.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
I'm with you.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
I think the offensive line is good. I like Ferguson
is a tight end. They're running backs just to refresh
everybody is Javonte Williams, Miles Sanders. Those are two veterans,
and they go out and get a couple of rookies.
Jayden Blue, who's going to be more of a pass catcher,
change of pace, speedback out of Texas, and then Phil MafA,
who's kind of kind of more that banger, you know,
a physical two hundred and thirty pounds back who can
(12:09):
play downhill on the Subduceva on uh there as well.
But I think that's a you know, that's where you
could kind of differ from those those cowboy teams were
talking about. There's no Hall of Famer in that in
that backfield.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
No, there's not. But you know, it always happens at
the end of training camp. There's always a veteran or
two that shake loose. There's always a veteran running back
that's hanging out there. They got it. You contact end
of July A you stand in shape, you feel.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
You were still you know who's still out there?
Speaker 4 (12:36):
Who pick Nick Chubb?
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Who I was going to say, JK Dobbins, I signed
it anywhere?
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yeah, JK.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
When he's been his whole career, when he's been healthy,
he's been good. It's just staying on the field. But
they might have enough backs there where you could say, hey,
you come in here. They've had some success with an
Ohio State running back in recent history, So maybe we
get him and and kind of ease him in and
try and preserve him throughout the year. They got other
guys to get the ball to. He'd be a nice piece.
I think he'd be a nice piece to what they
(13:04):
have there.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
Yeah, look, DJ, I'm not opposed to that. And we
know how this thing goes. Like the leverage now goes
back to the team, and so if the team plays
the waiting game, some of those players that are out
there looking for homes, they'll be able to get someone
to feel that I just right now. Look, it's still
a work in progress, but look, that offense is certainly
dangerous enough where they can win games in the passing game.
(13:27):
That offensive line is gonna be good. They gonna find
a way. Can they get the stops on defense? But yeah,
look they're much improved. And I say that knowing that
they can be much improved and not finish a spot higher.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
And it's a good division.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
I mean, look, Gavonta Williams, you know he's got ability.
I mean he's yeah, maybe he can maybe he can
find it there. Maybe that's a good fit for him,
and he can kind of emerge as that back that
we thought he was going to be when he was
coming out of college.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
But let's take a quick break.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
When we come back, I want to jump into some
of this draft stuff, give you some of the thoughts
here on some of these teams that I just based
on how I saw the players I thought did a
really nice job. So we'll get to that right after this.
So here's what our guy Jack did. Buck Jack Andrad
is the best researcher in the business. So we started
(14:16):
doing this a couple of years ago, put out a
top one fifty. So I like to kind of evaluate
drafts and instead of just willy nilly going a C
C plus B minus, like I said, let's do this scientifically,
like if we just figure out a formula to just
kind of based off this's how I saw him, and
then I give you an honest opinion of who I
thought did the best job. So it's pretty simple. Really,
(14:39):
Jack does a great job of just taking the one fifty.
The first pick is worth one hundred and fifty points.
The one hundred and fifty pick is worth one point.
So it's a way to kind of see who added
the most, you know, value according to that. And then
also we looked at who gave you the most points
and value over expected if you think about those expected
yards we use in foot ball. Now this is basically like, hey,
(15:01):
if you were picking twentieth and you got the tenth
best player, then that's plus ten in terms of you
know the value that I, at least how I perceived it,
how you got it, and everybody has their own opinions.
But these are the teams that shook out well just
based off how I saw the players, and we'll get
your thoughts on some of these draft classes. Number one
in terms of the total points, so just add all
(15:23):
the points together, just raw numbers. The Cleveland Browns were
number one with six hundred and eighty three points. That's
seven of my top one hundred and fifty players. Right
right behind them was the Patriots, and we talked about
them previously about we liked what they did they had.
They also had seven top one fifty players with six
hundred and forty eight total points. And then the Seahawks
(15:44):
were next with six one fifty players five hundred and
forty seven total points. So the Browns, Patriots, Seahawks, those
are the three teams who also showed up on the
most total points over expected, So not only to get
the raw number of what I think are good players,
but they got them with value. And that's so of
the five teams on those two lists, those are the
(16:06):
three Browns, Patriots, and Seahawks that show up on both
of those lists in terms of sheer, volume and value.
Speaker 4 (16:14):
You know, it's funny, right because there are people that
talk about this, and we've talked about it like the
draft is the ultimate crapshoot. No matter what we think
we may know about it, no one really knows. And
so you want to give yourself more opportunities to take
advantage of those players. And so when we talk about
the Cleveland Browns specifically, you talk about getting seven of
your top one fifty and being able to just throw
(16:37):
some darts in those rounds, like, hey man, that's a
really good player. We don't have an immediate need. Hey
let's he's good. We can't go wrong taking good players.
And some people are disciplined enough to chase talent as
opposed to chasing the need. And it appears that the
Cleveland Browns did that. The New England Pages we've talked
about doing that. If you want to build a good
(16:58):
roster man, you just got to take good players and
then figure out what to do with them once you
get him in the building.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Yeah, I feel like we've talked about those two teams,
the Browns and the Patriots, and we love what they did.
The Seahawks one was interesting to me too, just when
you look at who they added and some of the pieces.
If you just look on the offensive side of the ball,
Gray's Abel and we both loved him as someone who
can play up and down the line. It was a
glaring need for them along the interior of the offensive line.
So they bring him in the mix. You get Elijah Royo,
(17:27):
who was a super allent maker tight in the second round.
You take your shot on Milro, like, hey, go ahead
and let's take your shots. See what you get there.
Tory Horton, if he had been healthy, the receiver from
Colorado State, he goes way before the fifth round, so
that was tremendous value. So those are some of the
guys on the offensive side that I liked. And then
(17:48):
on the defensive side, even warri who is a first
round talented player. It just happens that a safety always
falls out. It happens every year. He was the guy
this year, so they get him in the second round.
And then Riley Mills on the defense side. I thought
he would have been a second or third round pick
if he had been healthy. You know, he has that
knee injury in the playoff game. The DT out of
Notre Dame. But that's a starting caliber player. So I
(18:10):
love what Seahawks did and what.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
I like about that, Like, I think it's a combination
of both. Right, Remember we talked about nostalgia and how
every coach, every scout is nostalgic about the great players
that they've been around. So let's talk about Imignori and
he comes in and naturally, John Snyd and those guys
can envision him being a faster version of Cam Chancellor.
(18:33):
But Mike McDonald has a closer reference by being able
to be like, well, look, I just had a big
safety at Cale Hamilton who really helped change our defense
and do those things. I think Mike McDonald being able
to go against Lamar Jackson every day can allow him
to be like, hey, let's take a chance on Jalen
mill Roe because I know he may be deficient in
some area, but man, a quarterback with that level of
(18:55):
athleticism can really be problematic for defense to the and
if you start thinking about those things where front office
and coaching staff are working together and kind of coming
with a shared vision of how they want to build
out this roster. To me, I think it's all over
the guys that they brought in. It is a combination
(19:15):
of Snyder and McDonald having these conversations about how they
can get the best and the players that they bring
on to the team.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Yeah, I think that there's a lot of clues that
were left and I'm going to try and remember this
as we go into next year. It's just looking at
the history of these gms and coaches and who's helped
them get into the chairs that they're in, because that
tends to be what they're looking to, you know, find
out there. That's what's They've ate that meal and been
very satisfied with the way it tastes and how it
treated them, and they'd like to go back and have
(19:42):
that same meal again.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
And there's nothing wrong with it. I actually like I
like that philosophy, Like if it's not broke, don't fix it.
Let's go after guys that we know or prototypes. Right.
I believe everybody has a sweet tooth, Like I like
VNA ice cream, I like certain cookies. I like those things,
So I'm gonna go and get that treat. When I
want to treat, I'm gonna go get that. So when
you're a team and evaluator, you want to kind of
(20:05):
follow that plan and kind of make it happen. And
for the Seahawks, who have always been able to look
prioritize athleticism and instincts for the players that they've drafted,
I think those traits show up. And you're right about
the Notre Dame defensive he was so good mis Riley Mills.
He was so good to the injury. But to me,
(20:28):
he strikes me as a worker bee, right, the worker
bee that you just have on the line. You look
at me like, man, this guy's played ten years. He's
played ten years in the league, because he just kind
of falls into the mix, kind of like a Kyle
Williams type, right that you just see them work and
work and work. They make a ton of plays and
they get after it. It's not just about the stars
that you bring. It's about the glue guys, the guys
that feel key roles. He has the potential to do that.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
So there's four other teams that showed up on one
of these two lists. So the three that were the
universally that I thought were the best, Browns, Patriots, Seahawks
show up on both lists. But then on the total
value you get the Giants and the Cardinals, they show
up on there, and then points and value over expected,
so the guys who exceeded where they were picking, the
Steelers and the Eagles both show up on there, so
(21:14):
which I always find it somewhat interesting, and I'm totally
open and honest about it that the way I was
trained and what I value in players, it's not going
to be a surprise that you're going to see, you know,
Steelers Eagles, because there's people in those front offices that
I really have the same education. You know, we grew
up the same, we were taught the same, we were
(21:34):
trained the same, so we're going to value the same
things in players. So there's a reason why almost every
year when I do this, the Eagles end up showing
up on there because we just kind of we like
the same things.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
So that's just kind of how that works.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
We do and we all impacted by our centers of influence. Right,
So I can sit here in wax poetic about Seattle. Well,
Josh Sider gave me my first job scouting. Josh Side
was also with me in Green Bay when I was
a player, and he was part of the front office.
And look, Ron Wolf was very impactful in terms of
not only how those teams were built, but how I
(22:08):
learned scouting and that other stuff. So yeah, some of
the value, some of the traits that I look for
in players, it stems from that same tree. And look
when when when the people were around have been very
successful utilizing that model, why would we deviate from it.
We've seen the success, We've seen what happens when it
goes right. And look, I understand it. I value a
(22:31):
lot of those traits that I learned coming up, and
I continue to try and expand my brain. But look,
that core is the core, like your core beliefs or
your core beliefs, and it's hard to really change from them.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
There was there was a little video. I think it
was like a six team minute clip. I didn't see
all of it, but the all I love these teams
that give you the behind the scenes look inside the
draft room. But the Eagles put one out on uh,
you know, on you know, all their draft process and
them trying to trade up to try and get up
to get your hot campbell. That was an interesting part
of it. But the more interesting thing to me was
(23:01):
prior to day three, Howie Roseman was in front of
the room, and they said, we're going to go buy position.
So for those who don't know, when you're in a
draft room, you have scouts who get areas, and then
after you get an area, you get a cross check position.
So you're in charge of a position and you watch
all of the players at that specific position. So he
goes to every scout at each position and he says, okay,
(23:24):
as we're getting into day three, we don't need role
players and backups here, Like who has And they're not
not saying it's a you know, it's a great shot,
but who has a chance to be a starter? Like
let's start with tackles. Who is the one player you
think that it could be three years from now, but
this player has starter ability? I'm not getting like, who's
got the high floor? They screw the floor that on
(23:47):
day three they are ceiling chasers. So who could potentially
hit and be a starter. And he went through every
every scout at every position they and they got a
bunch of those guys, even like McCord I think was
the quarterback. I think our buddy David.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
Paul loved him.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Yeah, Dave, he's got a chance to be a starter. Yeah,
Kyle McCord. Boom, Okay that we're going to target him. Okay,
let's go to the next position.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Boom.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Like and to me, they that was the way we
did it in Baltimore as well, Like I remember just
think that we've talked about this before, but well yeah,
but even just like, hey, we're going to take a
quarterback in the sixth round and it was Derek Anderson
versus Fitzpatrick. And I did the I had done the quarterbacks,
(24:28):
and look, and Ryan Fitzpatrick had a long career and
started and you know, really was more consistent career and performer,
ended up being a much better player.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Than my grade.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
But the question was posed to me, like who could
you see being, you know, who has the upside? Who
could be that I'm like, well, I think Fitzpatrick's going
to be a long term He's gonna be in the
league for a long time because he's so smart and tough.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
He'll be a backup forever.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
But I said, Derek Anderson six foot six, big arm, Like,
I could see him being like a starter like and
Derek Anderson didn't play as long, but Derek Anderson was
a Pro Bowl player for a year.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yes, Anderson had some of my highs.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
So even though Ryan Fitzpatrick ends up being the better player,
we were just chasing the chasing the ceiling.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
Okay. So DJ Dway I was taught like day three.
Day three is about the redeeming qualities. What are the
redeeming qualities that could make a player a starter or
something like that. So you talk about don't chase the
floor who has like we're swinging for the fences in
these things, like because we've already said that our first
(25:28):
three rounds, we're trying to find starters. So now these
are gravy picks, right, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
When we're in the fourth through seven and undrafted, we're
not expecting any of those guys to do it unless
we're chasing the traits. And you're chasing those superstar traits,
the things that could what we call the super powers
that could make them. Sorry. So when you talk about
(25:50):
Derek Anderson, who at height he had arm talent in
those things. He was inconsistent at Oregon State, but you're
chasing if everything goes right, what could he be. That's
where those things play out, and that's how you should
treat those things. And so you talked about the Eagles
and cal McCord. I honestly felt like Calu McCord was
(26:12):
one of the best gun slingers in this draft class.
Watching his game grow from Ohio State to Syracuse, I
was like, man, I think this guy has something to him.
So look, if I'm gonna throw a dart, I'm gonna
throw it dart as someone who has traits like that.
Another example would be last year Joe Milton in New England. Man,
he got a lot of traits. He got a big arm,
(26:32):
he has some of this. If I'm gonna go down,
I'm gonna go down with somebody who Man, if it
hits cool, if we strike out, it's not costly, Like
what are we doing? And so now the Patriots able
to parlay that into another pick. I mean, that's to me,
that's how you supposed to play the game.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Yeah, and look, that's our opinion on that. But I
think if you looked at the Patriot dynasty, the lot
of their picks. Now, they took a couple flyers, you know,
look at some of the conversions, you know, but a
lot of their guys were like, oh, this is a
special teams player, like he's going to just do this
or he's just going to do that, and he can
kind of just have this little role. We're going to
(27:09):
be the team of role players, so this guy can
do this one thing. Like there was not an upside
chasing mindset there. But I also think sometimes when you
have the Hall of Fame quarterback, the Hall of Fame
coach that allows you to.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Do it, that allows us rare but made no mistake,
this is the league where the most talented teams typically
win more times than not. It's an anomaly that a
team is not supremely talented that is one of the
last ones standing at the end of it. You have
to have talent to win. And look, I've heard this
from coaches. There is not a great coach who has
(27:44):
done it without great players. Like so, if you want
to be great, the easiest way to go down that
path is to go get a bunch of great players,
and that enhances your opportunity to.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Win, no question.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
All right, Buck, as we come down the close here,
I want to go through again. Jack has pulled out
who the best value was just based off my numbers here,
based off my rankings for each round. So I'm gonna
rip through them. I'll hit you, I'll get you the name,
and you just give me. Kind of one thought on
why you like it? All right, You're ready Philly. Johad
(28:17):
Campbell was my twelfth player.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
He was the thirty first pick.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
I love it. I know the Eagles don't get linebackers,
but after dealing with Zachbahn and seeing how versatile he
his versatility enhance their defense, I'm all about it. The
fact that he was there at the bottom of the
first round. Just from a value and a talent standpoint,
you have to put a trigger yep.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
And I think also Philly having so many these linemen
locked up and having guys on rookie deals, it allowed
him the luxury of being able to do this again.
I think it is a luxury to take a linebacker,
you know, running back, you know, tight end, what have
you in the first round. But you had to have
the rest of the house built. They got the rest
of the house built so they could take that luxury
and they get a big time player second round. For
obvious reasons. Mike Green to the Ravens was my highest rate.
(29:03):
He was my twenty first rated player. It was not
anything football related. He fell to the fifty ninth pick.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
Look, just had this conversation with a very prominent college
football writer and we talked about what I learned from
Baltimore and Ozzie Newsom, and I told you, I repeated
the story how Ozzie when I was a youngest gut
talked about the thing that translates sack production whatever, and
it was on the heels of Tyrell sucks sizzle coming
over ran a four eight, but was the CUA A
record holder in sacks. When I look at Mike Green
(29:31):
and I look at the sack production, and I look
at how he plays, and those things to me, he
had raven written all over them. I am not surprised
he ended up in Baltimore by.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
The way I spoke to that same writer.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
We haven't talked yet, but the article that is coming
out is going to be a fantastic And when it
comes out, I'm going to revisit what we said. Oh,
we'd all be on the record, so we'll be quoted
in this article. I have that we're gonna have said
person on because I want to discuss it with him.
Speaker 4 (30:04):
I had a chance to pull on an overport under
the garage.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Oh yeah, those quotes.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
All right, the third round. My let's see my fifty
fifth ranked player, Jared Wilson, the center from Georgia. He
goes ninety five to New England. So that was plus
forty points of value there in the third round.
Speaker 4 (30:28):
So Jared Wilson is funny DJ. And it's funny because
sometimes when we do the TV thing, we don't get
a chance to talk about the players, like so many
of the players are kind of glossed over because we
played it hims when it comes to TV. But look
at pivot. Jared Wilson was intriguing. I'm not surprised about
the Patriot thing. It like that person that position is
(30:49):
so critical movement. It's hard to find like smart and
athletic at that.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Spot test to be a yeah, I like that one.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Then we get to the fourth round, it's New England again.
This is why they were so I love what they did.
I mean, Joshua Farmer to me was my seventy seventh
player as a defensive tackle out of Florida State who
had a great Senior Bowl. They got him at one
thirty seven and I don't have it. I don't have
it front him, but I think there was some injury
concerns or durability long term question marks there, but as
(31:25):
a player shooting. At one point time he was in
my top fifty, Like he's a good player. They got
him in the fourth round.
Speaker 4 (31:32):
You know, it's funny you talk about Farmer being in
your top fifty. There are a lot of people that
talked about him and his work ethic and how hard
he played and what he would add to a team.
Sometimes DJ on draft weekend, things just get sideways where
you guys just gonna slap fall through the cracks through
no fault of their own. And every time we look
(31:53):
back at the drafts, like, man, I don't know how
it's got to get to the fourth round. He could
be one of those guys that we talked about when
we revisit the draft in a few years.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
I'm not a surprise the fifth rounder with Shador, who
was the last of my top fifty to go. He
was my twentieth player ended up going one forty four.
All the signs again we said everything you take with
a grain of salt. Here at the early signs look good.
At mini camp, I mean look for all the discourse
and all the conversation, and it got tiresome on all
(32:20):
sides to me, but the guy was a heck of
a lot better than one hundred and forty fourth pick.
I mean that nobody should dispute that, and he's going
to end up being a great value pick, I think.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
So.
Speaker 4 (32:32):
It might have upset the apple Quarde in Cleveland in
terms of how they wanted to do things, but they'll
look back and say it was a really great pick
for them. There's no doubt. People can say whatever whether
you like him or not. The personality, there's no way
as a player, he was a fifth round pick. There's
no way. And so the Browns pulled the trigger. They
created a bit of a circus maybe around it because
(32:54):
he's so prominent on social media in terms of like
people either love him or hate him. But there's no
doubt he's good. And whatever the clips are did he
put out there about him throwing and making passes, whatever,
it's not surprising. But now for him it has to
carry over into production when he gets his opportunity into
preseason whatever. I will say this though, I will say
(33:14):
his approach, the attitude and stuff that he's exhibited behind
the mic and on the field, and the way that
his teammates have talked. I would say that has been
a good thing, and I won't say it was negative before,
but a step in the positive direction in terms of
changing the perception maybe internally on how he would be
if he had an opportunity to be the quarterback.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Don't you think there's part of him that's just kind
of excited to actually, like go away, like this is
the first time he's not being coached by family. Like
it in some ways, and obviously Deon did a phenomenal
job of training him up and getting him ready to go,
and the guy's an NFL player, But there's also got
to be something like, man, it's kind of nice having
some new voices, like you know.
Speaker 4 (33:56):
A little bit. But here's the thing, and here's what
I cannot and I haven't been able to like, I
thought that there was gonna be a natural connection between
him playing under Pat Shermer, who Kevin Stefanski worked as
a quarterback coach under, and him being able to easily
assimilate into whatever the Browns are doing. I don't know,
maybe there's not that connection whatever, but I always thought
(34:17):
that that would be a natural thing. I will say,
listening to the micd up with Tommy Reese and how
they were talking to me. We've always felt like this
system was the right system for it. He got to
it not the way that we thought, but he ended
up getting into the system that we felt like was
best for him. Now, it was about him taking advantage
(34:38):
of the opportunity.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
One percent all right in the sixth and seventh rounds.
In the sixth round it was Jalen Reed, the safety
from Penn State. My seventy fourth player was one P
eighty seven, so that was a massive difference there. So
I liked him a lot more than where he ended
up going. And then lastly, not a surprise because it's
a quarterback, but quin Ewrs was my one hundred and
nineteenth player and he was a two one hundred and
(35:00):
thirty first pick. He almost went undrafted man seventh round
pick going to the Miami Dolphins.
Speaker 4 (35:05):
Unbelievable. But once again, DJ, the most important part is
fit in scheme. This is a perfect scheme for Queen Yours.
Haven't been around Queen Us since he was in high school.
We had a chance to talk to him in path
to the draft. Like to me, I think there's a
weight off his shoulders in terms of depressure. That's not
on him. He actually has an opportunity to go to
(35:27):
a place and just play ball without all the fanfare
and stuff for the first time in his entire life.
And we have seen lesser players coming there and play well.
And I said, we saw Skylet Thompson lead this team
to the playoffs and playing a postseason game. Quinn Ewers
can do this in this system. He has enough weaponry
(35:47):
around him if he has a chance to play to
have success. So it should be a good thing for him.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
No doubt. Excited to see what that looks like. There's
Zach Wilson in that room, TUA. That's an interesting preseason.
It'll be interesting to follow all those guys see how
they end up doing. Buck anything else you want to
get to before we jump out here. It's been great
to catch up, man.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
Man, it has been great to catch up. Like DJ,
It's fun because like as much as we talk about
the draft, like now, we guys going to camp like
OTAs and stuff, like football is kind of back in
a way, in a weird way, like football is back.
And so I'm sure you will probably pop in see
what the charges are doing. I'll get a chance to
go to Jacksonville at the end of the month and
(36:30):
kind of see what they're doing. So I'm excited to
see how the young guys are playing.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
No doubt.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
Well, it's been great to be back together, great to
chat some football. We'll do it again soon. We appreciate
you guys hanging with us and we'll see you next time.
Right here on, move the sticks.
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Daniel Jeremiah
Bucky Brooks
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