June 3, 2025 • 42 mins
On this episode of Move the Sticks, Daniel Jeremiah is joined by 3-time bestselling author, speaker, and host, Ken Coleman. Known for his ability to draw out powerful insights from some of the biggest names in business, politics, and sports, Ken shares his perspective on what defines great leadership, and how asking the right questions can unlock deeper understanding, trust, and performance. DJ and Ken explore the intersection of elite leadership in the sports world and the corporate space, and what it takes to not just lead, but inspire.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
And now Move the Sticks with Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
What's up, everybody. Welcome to Move the Sticks. DJ here
and excited for this episode today because I've got a
good friend that's going to join the show. It's Ken Coleman.
He's been on before. If you're familiar with the name,
it's because you are a big fan of his leadership
work over the years. Really one of the industry leaders
when it comes to leaders business professionals. He's been helped
(00:30):
in the finance world as well. He's got a great
new show that's out. You can find it on YouTube.
It is phenomenal. You can find the podcast as well
front Row Seats. It's an interview style show and Ken
is to me the best interviewer that I that I've
ever listened to. I've followed him for years and years
and years. Entre Leadership was kind of his baby for
(00:51):
a while, where he just brought on a business leader
and have great conversations and always learned not just a
lot from the person he was interviewing, but learned a
lot from him as an interviewer and in scouting and
in personnel work. You know, it's a big part of it.
You're trying to get to know the player, get to
know the person as well as the player, and a
lot of that has to do with the interviews and
the conversations that you have. So I wanted to bring
(01:14):
Ken on to kind of go through what he's doing,
what he's up to, and then also see if we
can't learn a little bit more about the best ways
to approach the interview process. And it's something that works
in the business world as well as a sports world.
Something I've always long been fascinated by. Bucky has as well.
Bucky got he got crushed in some LA traffic today,
(01:35):
so he got he was not able to get in
for this conversation, which I know is going to bum
him out, but I know he's going to enjoy listening
to it, and I hope you do too. Here's my
conversation with Ken Coleman. Well, Ken, I appreciate you taking
some time for us today.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Man.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
It's it's something I've always treasured, our friendship, our conversations
over the years, and I'm always I'm always fascinated to
see where life has taken you and and what you're
getting into now. And I want to start this thing
off First of all, if you just let everybody know
what you've been working on and your special project you've
got cranked up here.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Yeah, we just launched a new show. You know, it's
fun when you've been doing media as long as I've
been doing it and having a show, and I'm on
the Ramsey Network with Dave Ramsey, a co host his show,
which is now called The Ramsey Show. I've been doing
that for several years. But we launched a new project
that I've been really passionate about for a while. It's
called Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman, and it's an
interview show. But the difference between this format and every
(02:30):
other interview show is I borrowed a page from one
of my all time favorite shows called Inside the Actors
Studio on Bravo with James Lipton, the famed theater teacher,
and he would bring in directors and producers and actors
and he would interview them in front of his class
and then give the class the opportunity to ask questions.
And it stuck in my mind that one day I'd
like to be able to do that in the world
(02:51):
of professional development and leadership development, and so we do
it here in Nashville and Ramsey Studios, and we have
a live audi and they sit around us. It's very
intimate and they're part of the conversation. They're not props.
And that's something that has always mattered to me because
I just believe so deeply in the power of a
question that asking questions and asking good questions is the
(03:17):
key to unlocking everything we need to learn in life.
And I think it's just one of the greatest personal
growth professional growth tactics that we can use is always
be ready with the question. You know that wise person
that you run into at the coffee shop, you know
he's exited his company twenty five years ago and he
looks like some old dude who's just living his best life. Man,
I'm gonna meet that guy at the coffee shop. I'm
(03:39):
gonna talk to him, and I'm gonna have one question
at least, loaded up and ready to go, because that
guy's forgotten more about business than maybe I'll ever learn.
It's that kind of thing. It's not just you know,
having a show in a podcast. So the show's called
front Row Seat. We're doing deep dive conversations around three
key areas getting better personally, moving up professionally and leading
(04:01):
effectively and DJ Those are really the three steps that
I think you have to take to win as a professional.
I know you've got a professional audience, you how they
love football, But getting better personally, I'm bringing a better
version of me to work. So that's the physical, you know,
So I've got the energy, so I'm sleeping well, you know,
(04:22):
my health is good, so that I'm bringing the best
version of me to work. That's the emotional, the mental,
the relational. If your personal life is on fire, I
promise you it's coming to the office with you. And
then the idea of spiritual growth as well. You know,
if that's something that you're intrigued by, you know we're
going to have those conversations because we're talking about the
(04:44):
whole person. And then, of course, moving up, we get
at hard skilled, soft skills. And then at some point
in the American workplace, if you're really doing well and
you're getting better and you are moving up, you will
move into a leadership role. And one of the tragedies
in the American business place is we don't train people
for leadership very well. We just promote them. And many
(05:05):
times we'll take a stud salesperson and she or he
they don't want to move up. They want to crush
it in sales. That's what they're great at. And we
put them into a management or coaching role and they
never want to coach. They may not be good at coaching,
and yet we put them there. So those are the
three things that we're discussing, and we're going deep dive
very specific course in those three buckets, getting better, moving up,
(05:29):
and leading.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Well, there's so many different fascinating areas. I like to
go with that. And I already had a couple things
in the holster. And then as you kept going, I'm like, nope, nope,
I want to go in this in a different direction.
Here what you just said. I want to get your
opinion on this. We see all the time, coach, you
get hired to be a head coach, which is a
job most people haven't held.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Right.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
They start out as a position coach and their coordinator,
and then that usually the popular coordinator is a successful coordinators.
That's the pool of people we go to find head coaches.
It's not always you know, especially in the NFL, you're
not usually going to get a college coach. That's a rarity.
Nine times out of ten, it's going to be someone
who hasn't held that position at that level. So one
of the biggest challenges they have is, I'm an offensive coordinator.
(06:11):
I've called plays, I've been successful, which has led to
me getting a promotion and a new job with a
new job description and a lot The majority of those
guys will say, well, I'm going to continue to call
plays because that's what I'm good at and that's why
I got this position, whereas others will say, well, now
I'm the head coach, I need to delegate that and
then I need to work focus on the entire organization,
(06:33):
the entire team here. What would be your advice to
someone who's getting a head coaching job without head coaching
experience in that regard, Yeah, I think.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I'd stick with what you're really, really good at. In
other words, if you came to this position because of
your play calling ability, whether that's on the defensive side
or the offensive side, then I do believe you got
to stick to that core strength because that's you at
your best. See, the leader is always the lid to
the organization, and so when a leader hits his lid,
(07:04):
I got bad news for you. The organization is going
to hit its lid. So you go from being a
great offensive coordinator and you go to being a head
coach and you go, Okay, I'm really good at calm plays,
so I'm gonna stick with that. But I've got all
these other responsibilities. And for simplicity and the answer, let's
say that there's five brand new, big responsibilities that you
(07:25):
now have as a head coach that you didn't have
as an OC. All right, In that case, you've got
to look at that and go, Okay, where do I
have some natural strengths in these five new responsibilities? And boy,
if there's a lot of administrative detail and I'm not
naturally gifted there and I'm kind of a creative whiz,
then I better get myself somebody, whether it's a personal
(07:46):
assistant or I hire a coach who's really good operationally,
and I create a position where they essentially are executing
on those things. But getting my buy in, I got
to make the call. But I'm not going to do
because I struggle in an area. I mean, that's what
I think needs to happen on the corporate level, but
certainly at the head coaching level. If I'm not good
(08:07):
with people. You know, if I'm not a great communicator.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Which there are guys like that who are geniuses savants
in terms of looking at scheme, calling plays, but the
interrelational aspect of being a head coach not a strength.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
I'll give you an example, so I don't get you
in trouble. Yeah, but I know this from my relationships
in the NFL with players and coaches who coach with
this guy. And I think the classic example that is
Mike Martz. I don't know if that ever got to you,
but the word I got was that Mike was an
absolute wizard with call and plays, not very strong interpersonally.
(08:41):
And I'm keeping that very nice and professional. So if
that's the case, then you've got to be aware of
that and go, okay, who can run interference relationally with me?
And so I begin to deputize key leaders and coaches
who can fill that void with the team, and I,
as head coach, stay in my strength zone. Now that's
(09:03):
very hard to do, but that's the true answer to
your question. If you are somebody who's not been a
head coach and you've got some limitations, you know, you
look at a guy like Dan Campbell, he stands out
to me right now as a guy who just was
born to be a head coach. I don't know anything
about his ex as and O's ability, but I know
that he connects to grown men who are millionaires, no question.
(09:25):
And so you go, okay, So it's incumbent on Dan
Campbell to have an offensive coordinator whiz like he just did.
And now he loses into the Bears. He better feel that,
you know, and and.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
The defensive coordinator to the Jets.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
He lost both his coordinator. So okay, So you know
this is the question will the Lions be the same team.
The head coach matters so much, and the culture matters
so much. However, you told me this once. You told
me this once, and that kind of shocked me. Actually,
we were hanging out in a hotel lobby in Nashville once,
hanging out, and you said to me, go, you know,
(10:00):
in the NFL, these guys don't care much about the
ra ra stuff. They just put me in a position
to play well and win. And that threw me off
a little bit. I remember going, really, but I get
what you're saying, and I have to take what you're
saying at face value. But there's something about Dan Campbell
what he's done to create at least a positive culture,
and these guys will play hard for him. Now he's
(10:21):
got that in spades, but what he doesn't have, he's
going to have to surround himself with guys and I
think that's the key. And by the way, I'm just
describing as CEO, a really good CEO level five leader
that Jim Collins talks about in good Great that's what
I just described.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Yeah to me, and you can talk about, okay, it's
a tactician or someone who's a motivator, the different leadership
styles you might have in those positions. To me, it
comes down to buy in whatever it is, and in
order to get buy in, you better be authentic. Because
if you were someone who was the brainiac play caller
without the personality and you come into the new position,
(10:55):
we've seen it with the Bill Belichick tree for years
and years, the vast majority of those guys weren't successful.
They're trying to be Belichick light and that's not who
they were. So to me, I think authenticity is a
huge component there. I want to go back to what
you're saying it just a little bit earlier talking about
the importance of questions because for you know, with a
lot of people that listen to our show that are
in personnel, whether that's in college personnel, helping with these
(11:17):
college programs, which has now mimicked the NFL in terms
of a personnel department, as well as a ton of
NFL you know, GM scouts executives that listen to this thing.
And one of the challenges I've always been fascinated with
is the interview process with players. So you go to
the combine, you get ten fifteen minutes with the guy,
and I guess I'll open the floor to you of
(11:38):
give me, give me an example of a positive of
a effective, efficient way to use that time, and then
maybe on the other side of that, and I'll give
you I'll give you mind to just give you a
heads up on that. But ten questions drive me insane,
drive me on a scale of one. As soon as
I hear on a scale of I'm out, I'm out
(11:59):
on that.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
So I'll give you and tell you that I would
probably start to itch if I sat in on those interviews,
because that's what I do for a living. And so
I'm gonna give you some advice to your audience that
has nothing to do with the specifics that you're looking for,
because I don't know what you all are looking for,
but I really want to add value to you, and
I think this is going to do it. And this
is coming from a guy who's coached over ten thousand
(12:21):
people live on the radio. Okay, so I've learned how
to do professional coaching, and any coach seminar, any licensing
or training you go through, they're going to teach you this.
And this is what I'm gonna give you. Stop asking
why questions. Remove the word why at the beginning of
any question, and so in your prep next time you're
(12:43):
interviewing a kid, whether it be in the college, you're
just talking to a kid, stop using the word why.
Here's what we know from psychology that it immediately puts
that person on the defensive, and use a what question,
and hostage negotiators use this. So anytime you're tempted to
(13:05):
ask a question and you would normally put the word
why in it. And I'd go so far as to
train yourself on this by putting an index card or
something in front of you, a sticky note when you got
these interviews and say, don't use the word why or
know why, and then train your brain to go what,
and it changes the question. Give you an example, why
(13:26):
are you having issues with all the girls you're dating?
It keeps popping up. You're gonna put a kid on
the defensive. What you got to do is go what
do you see as some patterns in your life that
have gotten you into some stuff that I know you're
not proud of and you want to grow through. What
do you think is going on there now? I'm gonna
(13:47):
tell you that may not seem like a big difference,
but it's a massive difference. And just begin to watch
people open up when you ask what. When you ask why,
even the question itself becomes very pointed. But when you
ask what, you take on this curiosity stance, which is
what a question should be, and it essentially hands the
ball back to that person and they don't feel like
(14:08):
they've got to answer and defend what you've just said.
I'm gonna tell you, I think that'd be the advice
that I would give, And watch the responses become a
more honest and and be rich. They're gonna be richer
answers and they're gonna give you and so all professional coaches.
If I'm doing a financial coaching session or if I'm
(14:28):
doing a professional coaching session with a CEO DJ, I'm
constantly asking what CEO gives me an answer, then I
go what, And I keep following up with what? What? What?
What makes you feel that way? You know what? What
in your past do you think has influenced that? And man,
you're six feet deep right now, and now you're getting
(14:49):
to see the real person. And when you're evaluating talent,
whether again they're already in your college program and you're
trying to figure out should I put them on the field?
Do they got are there's their head where it needs
to be for Saturday? Man, I'm using what questions?
Speaker 2 (15:01):
So I'm gonna give you my favorite one that I've
you know, and I've been asking people about this for,
you know, twenty years, trying to figure out the best
way to get a good answer, a usable, learnable answer
from these players as they're coming through the process. So
this is my favorite one that I've heard over the years,
is what does a successful rookie season look like?
Speaker 1 (15:21):
For you? Beautiful?
Speaker 2 (15:23):
And You'll be amazed. That seems like a very simple question.
You'll be amazed what you can learn from that from
two different levels here. The first thing is you'll think
you'll see guys who think team first, and you'll see
guys who think individually first. Because you know, you'll hear
guys say what is a successful work year? Well, we're
gonna we're gonna have a winning season, We're gonna win
the division, We're gonna, you know, go to the playoffs
(15:43):
and win a Super Bowl. That's what is a success
to me. And you're gonna have other people say what
a successful year to me is. I'm gonna have growth.
They'll talk about how I'm gonna get better. I'm gonna
be better in the in game one than I was
in the preseason. I'm gonna be better Week eight, and
I'm gonna, you know, just continue to get better throughout
my rookie yar, I'm gonna learn, I'm gonna grow. And
then you'll hear other people who give a very simple
answer of I'm gonna be the rookie of the year.
(16:05):
I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna go to the Pro Bowl,
you know, like, and I'm not saying that that's completely wrong,
but I'm saying, you're going to learn a lot about
the wiring of the player when you just ask.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
You just described that so beautifully, because you're gonna get
two very different answers. You know, here's one. Here's one
that I would use. I'd love to give samples and
your audience could reject this one. But listening to you
talk it made me think of something. Here's here's a
really fun question for evaluating NFL talent. I'd ask them
(16:35):
what questions ideally is the media asking you after a
game on Sunday? Make them think first of all, because
they got to think through that, and what I just
did to them there was I'm taking them to postgame
and the media is they're sitting in front of the
media and the media is asking questions, and you're making
(16:55):
them really dig there by going what are the ideal questions?
What questions do you want to hear from the media
based on your performance on Sundays? Now that makes a
kid think first of all, and to your point, it's
going to reveal some depth. You know, I want to
hear a kid say, you know, you just were all
(17:16):
over the field today, what supplements are you taking? I
want them to be creative, you know, like like because
I got so much juice on the field, and I'm
everywhere and the announcers were calling my name all day long.
You know that you want them saying, So that's a
creative way to make a kid actually think and so
fun thing there. They don't have to be great at
(17:37):
the answer right away, but I'll tell you the ones
that can quickly get there and give you some great answers.
You know, two things are going on. One they got
some character. There's some character revealed in the answer. But
the ones that are quick on their feet, that kind
of a question is going to reveal the kids that
can actually process information pretty quickly. I would think I
could be wrong on that, but take them to a
(17:59):
snail and make them process a scenario. I like that.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
One of the things we've always talked about with quarterbacks,
and I'm curious if this carries over into the business
world and on a leadership skial. We've we've found over
the years that recall has been important with quarterbacks. So
if I can ask you, you know, hey, I'm we
always tell the story about Patrick Mahomes. When Patrick Mahomes
came in the studio two weeks before the draft and
there was questions about Mahomes I had him. Bucky did
(18:26):
as well about Okay, he kind of played reckless at
Texas Tech. You know, footwork was kind of all over
the place. This is just this wild stallion with this
huge arm, and you're kind of like, I don't know
what what do I make of this? Nobody from this
system has really been successful at the next level. But man,
he's got all these tools. And we brought him in
just before the draft, and I remember saying, you know,
TCU Week three, third quarter, you guys are driving. You know,
(18:48):
do you remember you know how that ended? What that
drive looked like. He gave me the play call, the
coverage they were in the read that he made and
told me everything about the whole process and it and
for some reason, and I don't know the exact answer,
I just feel like some of it is, you know,
being successful in the NFL is about a rolldex. It's
just a roll dex of experiences and then being able
(19:09):
to call back and rely on those experiences, think about
you know, the great all timers, And this is in
any sport. Usually what happens is you gain your wisdom
and your knowledge and your experience that goes up while
your talent level and athleticism goes down. But there's a
sweet spot in there where they're both meet and that's
where you get Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, you know, Lebron, James,
(19:31):
Michael Jordan, wherever where that experience and the athleticism is
still there. And I think with technology changes and training changes,
you're seeing guys able to hang in that zone longer
than they ever have before. But to me, recall that
roll dex of information is very valuable.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Yeah, and you know that right there is an example
of you know that. So if you're listening to the show,
you just heard what DJ said. So now you're coming
up with really unique questions to see if we got
good strong recall, and now you're designing an interview that
is very very specific. You know, we know this from
the corporate world, DJ, And this is back to your
(20:08):
initial focus here on questions for talent evaluation. You know,
we know in the in the corporate world that it's
the number one thing that bosses hate is doing job interviews.
So they kind of make it up as they go along.
And I'm not saying that scouts are doing that or gms.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
They don't have direction a lot of them have never
we've been taught what what a three technique looks like
when he gets up the field and the explosiveness and
how fluid he is and can you flip your hips?
But for the most part, and they'll say you need
to go spend time interview this player talk to that
they've never taught them how to interview. That's that's not
their fault.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
That's right, we'll see. That shocks me. And so I'm
gonna tell you something right now. I'm so glad you
revealed that. If you take anything away from this podcast,
and I hope we're adding value to you folks, but
if you get nothing else, become a great question askerr
because that sounds like you now have a massive advantage
in talent assessment and really figuring out because people aren't
teaching how to ask questions. By the way, Harvard has
(21:05):
got data on this that it's in the low ninety
percent of all bad hires happened as a result of
the interview process. Wow, So this is you know, this
is to me. If you're talent evaluator and you're listening
and watching this, become a great question asker. It's going
to give you a absolute distinct advantage because you're going
(21:27):
to learn stuff that other people don't learn.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
All right, let's take a quick pause, a quick break,
and we will get right back to this fascinating conversation
with Ken Coleman. How do you quantify things? This is
something we talked about last week, or maybe it was
two weeks ago, but we know of two teams and
(21:49):
we didn't want to mention the teams to put them
on Front Street, but it was us. It was fascinating
because to give you a little glimpse on the scouting
side of things, you go through and you'll have and
when you're writing up you're inside your computer, you'll have
position specific notes. So it'd be like a corner and
have all the different traits that you look for, and
you we would write comments in there and then you'd
have your summary, so you'd write, you know, a paragraph
(22:10):
plus on the player to give the whole the whole
way we were taught, you know, going back twenty years ago,
and the way it's always been done is that we're
going to paint a picture for everybody. So when you're
in the room and you hear us read our report,
you're gonna even if you haven't seen the player. You're
gonna know what he looks like based off how we
write it. But these two teams, and one of which
has been very successful in the NFL, are no longer
writing reports. They are dragging and dropping. So they have
(22:34):
a list of like terms and descriptors, but they've been
able to attach kind of a number system to that.
So when you're writing your report, they're just taking from
that bank and putting it over here. And then what
they've done is now they have data over a long
period of time, like, for instance, you know, I'll just
make something up her corners that struggle to tackle, Well,
that's been tagged now, so they can go back through
(22:57):
and look and say, well, there's a strong correlation between
owners who don't tackle in college that they are going
to have a hard time in the NFL. Or maybe
there's no correlation at all. But they're able to take
all this data from these reports now and they're able
to quantify things and say this is these are the
important factors, these ones not so much. This is a good, uh,
you know, idea of of what this should look like
(23:18):
for a successful player. Can you do that in the
business world? And do you believe in this little shift
in philosophy here.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
You can't do that in the business world because you
don't have all that data. You don't have true, you
don't have combines. The best you have.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
The best you have is you have spreadsheets in the
performance I guess from your companies, but I don't know what.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Yeah, but if you're talking about hiring somebody, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So if you're talking about in the context you just
asked me, they're treing about drafting somebody, if you're talking
about hiring somebody or signing a free agent h in
the corporate world, the best you have as a resume
and some references right now. Once they come to work
for you, you can start measuring things.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
But could you do core key areas like could you
say when you're interviewing somebody and say, hey, these are
the twelve factors that make we believe make a great
employee and a few hundreds or higher than this on
the interview process, we're not going to bring you into
the bilding.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Yes now to that absolutely, And so they're you can
do it, and I think that it's helpful to do it.
But what I would focus on is I'd have my Okay,
let's let's talk about culture stuff. Are they gonna fit
on the team that we're looking at putting them on.
Let's look at values and stuff like that to see
if they're a culture fit. I would look at obviously,
(24:25):
skill set. You gotta be super like and you gotta
know it. You gotta gotta have ways of testing that
in the interview so you know you're not being lied to.
And I'm a big fan of letting somebody do a
half day's worth of work or something like that, or
come up with a way to do that, and let's go,
let's see if they're an actor or if they can produce.
(24:46):
But I would say, as I heard you talk about that,
the only thing I would always have a fail safe.
I'm going to call it a fail safe for lack
of a better word. I think sometimes we could be
we quantify too much system stuff and we can miss
the diamond in the rough. If you will, you know it.
(25:09):
You could look at well, they didn't have this, they
didn't have this or this. But I'd want to go, okay,
but but man, we're looking at him. Why are we
looking at him? What are we missing? And I would
have some type of system to go. Is there anything
that we're missing here that that explains why the quantifiable
data isn't matching up? In other words, was the kid
(25:29):
a good tackler in high school but he wasn't a
good tackler in college? Was he hurt? Yeah? Was he hurt.
I'll give you a real personal example. My son. My
son is an absolute ballhawk. He's gonna be he's gonna
be a senior. And over his career, he's had one
(25:49):
coach that I'm thinking of who crapped on his spirit.
And by the way, full disclosure, I did not. I'm
not the parent that goes in during the season and
has the talk. Not the guy at all, the coach
on speed dial, do not. It never works, first of all,
and then I honored my sons. But here's my point.
(26:10):
We did meet after the season and the question was posed
to me, and I pointed out, what you're looking at
as a lack of effort is not a lack of effort.
I'm gonna tell you what it is. Because I've raised
a kid, I know him, and I've not called you
have I no, you didn't at all? No emails, no,
no emails. I said, I'm gonna tell you what happened.
(26:31):
You need to go ask him about this moment and
this moment in this moment, and I'm gonna tell you
what happened. Yes, it was a lack of effort, but
you're focused on the lack of effort instead of figuring
out what happened to the kid's spirit. You will not
get effort from a kid with a crushed spirit. So
that's one kind of example to go if we feel
(26:52):
like the kids got a shot, but it doesn't look
like it's adding up over here in all these fancy quantifiables. Yeah,
I don't want to go. Is there there's something there
that just we coach that we lead that and we
turned the dial up that would be I hope that
makes sense. Yeah. I just think if you get so
hung up on principles, you forget that this is a
(27:14):
people business. And I think that plays in the NFL
college and I also think it plays in the corporate world.
Don't get so reliant on your principles that you forget
there are some people elements here that could change the principles.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Yeah, and I think we've seen an emphasis on that
more so over the last couple of years, where some
of the best teams have shrunk their draft boards. They've
eliminated a lot of people because they're focused on we're
gonna these are the sixty people who fit. And within
those sixty people, we got to find seven players that
we can draft that are going to you know, that
have come in here and be successful, but they've made
(27:48):
the commitment. And I know one specifically is one of
the best run organizations of the NFL. We are just
simply not going to miss on the person. We will
forgive ourselves if we miss on the player. We're not
going to miss on the person on the wiring, on
the makeup and all those things. So we're going to
shrink our pool. And those are the guys we're going
to select from. And they've they've got adults. They've got
a bunch of adults in the room. This this group
(28:10):
has focused a lot more on players who have you know,
been in college state like like four years. You can
stay shoot some of them seven years now, but a
lot of four year guys so maybe a red shirt,
maybe they've played three came after the junior year, but
four years in college guys who've competed in the Senior Bowl.
So in an era where everybody's sitting out games and
doesn't want These guys just love to compete, so they
(28:30):
want to go compete, and they compete the Senior Bowl.
Maybe they've even gone through the whole combine process and
haven't backed away from that. But there's just a lot
of different factors that they've they've they've figured out quite honestly,
that these are the right people and within that, you're
still going to miss because it's imperfect, you're going to
miss on some players, but they've just made it their
goal that, hey, you know, we will miss on players
(28:52):
here and there, We're not going to strike out on
the person as much as.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
We have in the past. See I love that. I'll
just say this real quick again for your audience, trying
to give your audience something here for you. They're in
talent evaluating and you're coaching kids. This may be cheesy,
but if I were in the coaching business, or if
I was in the talent GM world, I'm all for
the stars because you got to rank all that stuff,
because I got to be able to play, especially on Sunday.
(29:17):
But I'd want to know I'd have a heart scale.
He's a five star, but what's his heart? And I'm
talking about character spirit, the juice has this kid got
crazy levels of grit. I would have a scale on
the people side and I'd call it heart, and I'd go,
(29:38):
he's a two He's a five star player. A two
heart player.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
That's a problem.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Now we look at it and go, why is he
a two heart? If he was coached poorly in college
and he had some meglomaniac position. Coach screamed at him
and his dad screamed at him growing up. No, I'm serious,
and there's a wound there. Wait a second. If I
draft this kid and put my arm around him and
give him affirmation that he's never had before, we got
(30:07):
ourselves a five heart. So I just think, and again,
I know it's limited and all this kind of stuff
in the time people have, but I do believe in
what you just said. I think that organization they're going
to win in the long run because and again I
hate to say this, but everybody talks about Tom Brady,
but I don't know what everybody missed with that kid.
We don't know. I don't know. I've never actually sat
(30:28):
and listened to anybody who scouted him back then. I
wish I had. I'm biased, I'm a Michigan guy, but
I mean, you know, he didn't have a whole lot
of quantifiables apparently, but did he But did he? I
mean did he develop an arm? Did he develop an accuracy?
Did he develop recall after he got the NFL? Or
did he already have it? What is your take?
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Well, to me, everything got accentuated. I do think his
arm got stronger as he got to the NFL, and
you saw his part of his thing was you had
the Drew Henson factor at Michigan. So he's in and
out the line up there, he's always looking to you know,
he's going to be replaced. Then you have he goes,
he gets sick, goes to the combine, he looks thin,
he's not you know, it doesn't look great from that standpoint.
(31:10):
So that spring didn't go well for him. But then
to me, I think with Tom Brady, we did a
whole thing on this. When I was with the Ravens,
we did a whole study on him in the early
two thousands, once he started to pop, and I had
I had not scouted when he was I think we're
actually the same age, But I had not been in
the NFL when he came in the NFL. So it
was interesting to sit in there and see and when
you read through the people's reports that had gone in there,
(31:30):
there was a lot of it. A lot of the
good stuff was kind of was hidden inside there, and
you saw things which for my this for me, my
Tom Brady is Brock Purdy. Where Brock Purdy is the
last pick of the draft. He's mister irrelevant and people
can say where does he stack up? Is he top ten,
is he top fifteen, is you know, whatever you want
to say. The guy has been probably the greatest success
(31:52):
story in NFL draft history. Is nobody's been the last
pick of the draft and gone, you know, done what
he's done as a Super Bowl quarterback and someone who
just got whateverwo hundred and fifty million bucks. But when
I went and called Iowa State and called Matt Campbell,
their head coach after his first year playing, and I said, Coach,
what I miss on this guy? Because when I watched him,
I saw average size, average arm strength, maybe a little
(32:13):
bit above average athleticism, Like statistically he was accurate, but
that you know, I didn't jump off the numbers, didn't
jump off the page that way, and he goes, he
goes DJ He is the most competitive practice player I
have ever coached. He's a maniac competitor. So that was
one piece of that. So that filled in a little
bit of that circle for me. Then I got a
(32:33):
chance to spend a lot of time with Brock and
asked him. I said, hey, without taking crazy pills, because
when you were when I was watching you, I didn't
like your arm strength was a question for me, you know.
And he said, look, he said, when I finished playing,
I had that sprain to get ready for the draft,
and I, you know, got his personal coaches and they're like,
you are you have worked too hard, You're too muscled up.
(32:54):
You need to lose weight, you need to be a
little more elastic. So he took that advice and that coaching.
It limbered him up. It loosened him up. He ended
up getting more velocity on the ball. He was more
he was just everything about him was more smooth and
more natural. But so then this is kind of competing
the puzzle. And my takeaway was this, Ken, if you
have somebody who has enough ability and they are maniacal workers,
(33:17):
they're incredibly intelligent, and they they will not be denied.
You bet on those guys all day long. They're going
to figure it out. And that's the same thing with
Tom Brady. He's a maniac, competitor, psycho, he's a psychopath.
And those guys are the guys that you just say,
he'll figure it out.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
That's right. I couldn't agree more. And by the way,
that's a lesson for corporate America too. You know, that's
just the hunger. You know, Pat Lenciona, You know Pat,
Pat's become a dear friend. Lives two streets over from
me now here in Franklin, Tennessee. And Pat and I
talked about this one time when he came out with
the book The Ideal team Player, which has been a
runaway success, and and he talks about humble, hungry, and
(33:55):
people smart are the three characteristics. He says smart, but
what he means is non intelligence. He means like people smart.
But we talked about the hunger thing, and I was
interviewing him. I said, Pat, I have an opinion on this,
but I want to ask you first. I said, can
you teach hunger? He went nope, And I went, I agree,
like it's not teachable. Yep, either have it or you don't.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Do you agree with that one hundred percent? One hundred percent?
I agree with it. And it's in their wiring, and
it's you know, you can use makeup wiring, DNA, whatever
term you want to use with guys, but there is
there's something different and it's hard to describe, but you
know it when you see it. And that goes back
to your point about how do you some things can't
be quantifiable. I saw it and the players that I've
been around, if you were to just go size up
(34:39):
Ed Reid, you know, with all the different safeties in
the NFL, and just if you just did a lineup
and looked at him, you're like, he's who was this guy?
He's just maybe the best safety of all time. Took
Ray Lewis and put him in a lineup with linebackers,
he wouldn't look any anything out of out of the ordinary.
But they are incredible competitors. Every great player I've ever
been around had that had that right, and they make
(35:00):
others better. They make others better around them.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
I think the hungriest player I've all I've ever in
my life laid eyes on and I had I had
the privilege of being his booking agent twenty some years ago.
Mike Singletary hungriest. Oh yeah, not a particularly big guy.
Yeah you saw the hunger your word, psychopath when he
was on the field.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
I worked with him.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Yeah, that's who was our linebackers.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
This is a groggy, a great Mike Singletary story. So
he come he gets hired as our linebacker coach. We
already have the best defense in the league, ray Lewis,
and the defensive Player of the Year. Ray Lewis has
won the Super Bowl in Super Bowl MVP, like, our
defense is being discussed as one of the all time
great defenses in NFL history. So Singletary comes in to
be the linebackers coach. He's got I mean, he's not
just ray Lewis. We've got all a room full of
(35:46):
studs in there, and he's got out there, you know,
like the the cage or like the bars, so you'd
have to stay low like going through him like in
the seventies and eighties. We've got that thing out there,
and I mean an individual before we get to like team,
he is running these guys and training him like it's
it's like it's Jack Lambert like level stuff and like
(36:07):
they had to tell a hey, coach like these this
isn't these guys are already in shape, Like we don't.
We don't need to kill these guys an individual. We
have the best defense in the league. Let's just teach
them what to do and keep them.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Remember the Titans.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Yes, yes, but he that was his, that was his,
that was his way of doing it. It was always
gonna be all hard percent of the time. But yeah, Ken,
you've been You've been generous with your time. I'm gonna
I'm gonna end on this one last question. Okay, uh
and then and I'll let you run. If you were
if you were going to hire a college head coach,
(36:41):
talked a lot about the NFL. If you're going to
hire a college head coach, and the landscape has changed
a lot, and it's you know, n I L and
transfer portal, all those things. Give me, give me a
couple traits you would look for that will will lead
to at least a probability of success in an ever
changing landscape in college ball.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Man, that is a great question.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
A couple because I'm fast, and I'll give you this
little tip here geting point. I am fascinated and talking
I talked to college coaches all the time, and when
I used to talk about recruiting and what do you
look for? And I'm trying to learn, always trying to
learn and grow. There my thing I am fascinated with
is retention. How are you going to keep your players?
(37:25):
No longer playing offense anymore, You've got to play defense
with the guys already in your building.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
What is what is the.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Key to retention in a world where these guys are
scattered all over the globe.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
That's where I was headed. I'm going to give you
two for shortness of time. This is what I personally
believe on this one. I think there is Here's I'll
set it up. There's a difference between coaching men and
young men. Yeah, and now we've got young men. And
I was on the phone with an assistant ad at
(37:56):
the school that I think is on your shirt right there, Fayl. Yeah,
And he was telling me about what we were talking
about the finances of these young people, and he was
getting my thoughts on we got to coach these kids
on how to handle their money. They're millionaires now, and
so we're talking about the financial piece. And that accentuates
this point. Number one, they're young men. Their frontal lobes
(38:17):
are not fully developed. They are not a twenty eight
year old, thirty year old pro. They are eighteen year
old millionaires who have been treated like the prince of Egypt,
most of them. So that's our context for these two traits.
So I think number one, you got to have discernment.
And I do think this is a skill that can
be developed. I think you can take classes on it.
(38:40):
I think you can learn how to really ask good
questions like we've been talking about. But you better develop
the ability to read young men. I mean read them.
They may say one thing, but you better be able
to figure out what's going on underneath. And the ability
to be discerning is huge. The second thing is is
the ability to build trust. And I think these two
(39:03):
go hand in hand. You're gonna have to be discerning
on the front end to be able to ask the questions,
to be able to pay attention to talk to their
position coaches, to meet them outside the football field. You're
gonna have to get your eyes on them and really
read them and see what's going on with them. And
then to that level as you begin to ask questions
and relate with them, then they will begin to trust you.
(39:27):
But I think if you're a great reader of people
and a great trust builder, those would be the two
traits that I would want to start with. Because you
can call plays, you can win the living room. There's
plenty of guys like that. But to your point, if
retention is the game, and I think it is until
this landscape changes, I think those would be two of
(39:47):
the most important traits. Can I read people well, really
read these kids and be so tuned in, get my
antenna up, and then can I build trust with them?
Because if they trust you, they're going to stay with you.
The really good ones, they're going to the league whether
they play for you or somebody else. That's the reality.
So if you want to keep them, you're going to
(40:08):
keep them because they trust you. They've been told they're
great their whole life. They got pressure to take care
of their family, they got pressure from the media. You
guys know all the things. But to the extent that
you can read them and build trust with them, I
think that gives you the edge on retention.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
That is a phenomenal way to wrap this thing up, man,
because it is to me. I think there's real advantages
to be had out there, and it's not just who
has the deepest pocketbook. In a world where every day
you're looking to see who was able to reel one in,
we don't ever see the headlines of who was able
to keep one in the fold. And I think that
might be what's more important in terms of the teams
(40:47):
that are going to ultimately get the big prize out
there is not only who you go out and get,
but who you hold on to. Who do you keep
so great advice from Ken there. I hope you guys
have enjoyed this conversation as much as I have. I
know I kept you a little bit long there, Ken,
but you are You're one of my favorites, man. I
appreciate your friendship and I always I always take pages
full of notes when we get a chance to get together.
I appreciate you, buddy.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Well, I appreciate you. You're the best in the business. ESPN
better back up a Brinks truck to you, because you're
the best there is.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
They might be buying it. Who knows, they might be
buying the whole network. I don't know why, I know
I heard that crazy. I just think you're the best
there is.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Your preparation, your kindness, and also I want to brag
to your audience of what a true gentleman and true
great man, husband and father you are behind the scenes.
He's not just a whiz with his ability to discern.
You get the gift to discernment, and it's been very
obvious as you've shined on the draft coverage. That's not
(41:41):
just preparation. You do have discernment. And I appreciate you too, Bro.
Anytime I love talking leadership of football and culture on
stuff like this, I don't get to do these podcasts
as much as I like, so it's always fun to
be with you.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
You're the best I know. Everybody enjoyed this as much
as I have. I appreciate you guys hanging with us,
and we'll see you next time. Right here, unmoved the
sticks
And now Move the Sticks with Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
What's up, everybody. Welcome to Move the Sticks. DJ here
and excited for this episode today because I've got a
good friend that's going to join the show. It's Ken Coleman.
He's been on before. If you're familiar with the name,
it's because you are a big fan of his leadership
work over the years. Really one of the industry leaders
when it comes to leaders business professionals. He's been helped
(00:30):
in the finance world as well. He's got a great
new show that's out. You can find it on YouTube.
It is phenomenal. You can find the podcast as well
front Row Seats. It's an interview style show and Ken
is to me the best interviewer that I that I've
ever listened to. I've followed him for years and years
and years. Entre Leadership was kind of his baby for
(00:51):
a while, where he just brought on a business leader
and have great conversations and always learned not just a
lot from the person he was interviewing, but learned a
lot from him as an interviewer and in scouting and
in personnel work. You know, it's a big part of it.
You're trying to get to know the player, get to
know the person as well as the player, and a
lot of that has to do with the interviews and
the conversations that you have. So I wanted to bring
(01:14):
Ken on to kind of go through what he's doing,
what he's up to, and then also see if we
can't learn a little bit more about the best ways
to approach the interview process. And it's something that works
in the business world as well as a sports world.
Something I've always long been fascinated by. Bucky has as well.
Bucky got he got crushed in some LA traffic today,
(01:35):
so he got he was not able to get in
for this conversation, which I know is going to bum
him out, but I know he's going to enjoy listening
to it, and I hope you do too. Here's my
conversation with Ken Coleman. Well, Ken, I appreciate you taking
some time for us today.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Man.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
It's it's something I've always treasured, our friendship, our conversations
over the years, and I'm always I'm always fascinated to
see where life has taken you and and what you're
getting into now. And I want to start this thing
off First of all, if you just let everybody know
what you've been working on and your special project you've
got cranked up here.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Yeah, we just launched a new show. You know, it's
fun when you've been doing media as long as I've
been doing it and having a show, and I'm on
the Ramsey Network with Dave Ramsey, a co host his show,
which is now called The Ramsey Show. I've been doing
that for several years. But we launched a new project
that I've been really passionate about for a while. It's
called Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman, and it's an
interview show. But the difference between this format and every
(02:30):
other interview show is I borrowed a page from one
of my all time favorite shows called Inside the Actors
Studio on Bravo with James Lipton, the famed theater teacher,
and he would bring in directors and producers and actors
and he would interview them in front of his class
and then give the class the opportunity to ask questions.
And it stuck in my mind that one day I'd
like to be able to do that in the world
(02:51):
of professional development and leadership development, and so we do
it here in Nashville and Ramsey Studios, and we have
a live audi and they sit around us. It's very
intimate and they're part of the conversation. They're not props.
And that's something that has always mattered to me because
I just believe so deeply in the power of a
question that asking questions and asking good questions is the
(03:17):
key to unlocking everything we need to learn in life.
And I think it's just one of the greatest personal
growth professional growth tactics that we can use is always
be ready with the question. You know that wise person
that you run into at the coffee shop, you know
he's exited his company twenty five years ago and he
looks like some old dude who's just living his best life. Man,
I'm gonna meet that guy at the coffee shop. I'm
(03:39):
gonna talk to him, and I'm gonna have one question
at least, loaded up and ready to go, because that
guy's forgotten more about business than maybe I'll ever learn.
It's that kind of thing. It's not just you know,
having a show in a podcast. So the show's called
front Row Seat. We're doing deep dive conversations around three
key areas getting better personally, moving up professionally and leading
(04:01):
effectively and DJ Those are really the three steps that
I think you have to take to win as a professional.
I know you've got a professional audience, you how they
love football, But getting better personally, I'm bringing a better
version of me to work. So that's the physical, you know,
So I've got the energy, so I'm sleeping well, you know,
(04:22):
my health is good, so that I'm bringing the best
version of me to work. That's the emotional, the mental,
the relational. If your personal life is on fire, I
promise you it's coming to the office with you. And
then the idea of spiritual growth as well. You know,
if that's something that you're intrigued by, you know we're
going to have those conversations because we're talking about the
(04:44):
whole person. And then, of course, moving up, we get
at hard skilled, soft skills. And then at some point
in the American workplace, if you're really doing well and
you're getting better and you are moving up, you will
move into a leadership role. And one of the tragedies
in the American business place is we don't train people
for leadership very well. We just promote them. And many
(05:05):
times we'll take a stud salesperson and she or he
they don't want to move up. They want to crush
it in sales. That's what they're great at. And we
put them into a management or coaching role and they
never want to coach. They may not be good at coaching,
and yet we put them there. So those are the
three things that we're discussing, and we're going deep dive
very specific course in those three buckets, getting better, moving up,
(05:29):
and leading.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Well, there's so many different fascinating areas. I like to
go with that. And I already had a couple things
in the holster. And then as you kept going, I'm like, nope, nope,
I want to go in this in a different direction.
Here what you just said. I want to get your
opinion on this. We see all the time, coach, you
get hired to be a head coach, which is a
job most people haven't held.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Right.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
They start out as a position coach and their coordinator,
and then that usually the popular coordinator is a successful coordinators.
That's the pool of people we go to find head coaches.
It's not always you know, especially in the NFL, you're
not usually going to get a college coach. That's a rarity.
Nine times out of ten, it's going to be someone
who hasn't held that position at that level. So one
of the biggest challenges they have is, I'm an offensive coordinator.
(06:11):
I've called plays, I've been successful, which has led to
me getting a promotion and a new job with a
new job description and a lot The majority of those
guys will say, well, I'm going to continue to call
plays because that's what I'm good at and that's why
I got this position, whereas others will say, well, now
I'm the head coach, I need to delegate that and
then I need to work focus on the entire organization,
(06:33):
the entire team here. What would be your advice to
someone who's getting a head coaching job without head coaching
experience in that regard, Yeah, I think.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I'd stick with what you're really, really good at. In
other words, if you came to this position because of
your play calling ability, whether that's on the defensive side
or the offensive side, then I do believe you got
to stick to that core strength because that's you at
your best. See, the leader is always the lid to
the organization, and so when a leader hits his lid,
(07:04):
I got bad news for you. The organization is going
to hit its lid. So you go from being a
great offensive coordinator and you go to being a head
coach and you go, Okay, I'm really good at calm plays,
so I'm gonna stick with that. But I've got all
these other responsibilities. And for simplicity and the answer, let's
say that there's five brand new, big responsibilities that you
(07:25):
now have as a head coach that you didn't have
as an OC. All right, In that case, you've got
to look at that and go, Okay, where do I
have some natural strengths in these five new responsibilities? And boy,
if there's a lot of administrative detail and I'm not
naturally gifted there and I'm kind of a creative whiz,
then I better get myself somebody, whether it's a personal
(07:46):
assistant or I hire a coach who's really good operationally,
and I create a position where they essentially are executing
on those things. But getting my buy in, I got
to make the call. But I'm not going to do
because I struggle in an area. I mean, that's what
I think needs to happen on the corporate level, but
certainly at the head coaching level. If I'm not good
(08:07):
with people. You know, if I'm not a great communicator.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Which there are guys like that who are geniuses savants
in terms of looking at scheme, calling plays, but the
interrelational aspect of being a head coach not a strength.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
I'll give you an example, so I don't get you
in trouble. Yeah, but I know this from my relationships
in the NFL with players and coaches who coach with
this guy. And I think the classic example that is
Mike Martz. I don't know if that ever got to you,
but the word I got was that Mike was an
absolute wizard with call and plays, not very strong interpersonally.
(08:41):
And I'm keeping that very nice and professional. So if
that's the case, then you've got to be aware of
that and go, okay, who can run interference relationally with me?
And so I begin to deputize key leaders and coaches
who can fill that void with the team, and I,
as head coach, stay in my strength zone. Now that's
(09:03):
very hard to do, but that's the true answer to
your question. If you are somebody who's not been a
head coach and you've got some limitations, you know, you
look at a guy like Dan Campbell, he stands out
to me right now as a guy who just was
born to be a head coach. I don't know anything
about his ex as and O's ability, but I know
that he connects to grown men who are millionaires, no question.
(09:25):
And so you go, okay, So it's incumbent on Dan
Campbell to have an offensive coordinator whiz like he just did.
And now he loses into the Bears. He better feel that,
you know, and and.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
The defensive coordinator to the Jets.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
He lost both his coordinator. So okay, So you know
this is the question will the Lions be the same team.
The head coach matters so much, and the culture matters
so much. However, you told me this once. You told
me this once, and that kind of shocked me. Actually,
we were hanging out in a hotel lobby in Nashville once,
hanging out, and you said to me, go, you know,
(10:00):
in the NFL, these guys don't care much about the
ra ra stuff. They just put me in a position
to play well and win. And that threw me off
a little bit. I remember going, really, but I get
what you're saying, and I have to take what you're
saying at face value. But there's something about Dan Campbell
what he's done to create at least a positive culture,
and these guys will play hard for him. Now he's
(10:21):
got that in spades, but what he doesn't have, he's
going to have to surround himself with guys and I
think that's the key. And by the way, I'm just
describing as CEO, a really good CEO level five leader
that Jim Collins talks about in good Great that's what
I just described.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Yeah to me, and you can talk about, okay, it's
a tactician or someone who's a motivator, the different leadership
styles you might have in those positions. To me, it
comes down to buy in whatever it is, and in
order to get buy in, you better be authentic. Because
if you were someone who was the brainiac play caller
without the personality and you come into the new position,
(10:55):
we've seen it with the Bill Belichick tree for years
and years, the vast majority of those guys weren't successful.
They're trying to be Belichick light and that's not who
they were. So to me, I think authenticity is a
huge component there. I want to go back to what
you're saying it just a little bit earlier talking about
the importance of questions because for you know, with a
lot of people that listen to our show that are
in personnel, whether that's in college personnel, helping with these
(11:17):
college programs, which has now mimicked the NFL in terms
of a personnel department, as well as a ton of
NFL you know, GM scouts executives that listen to this thing.
And one of the challenges I've always been fascinated with
is the interview process with players. So you go to
the combine, you get ten fifteen minutes with the guy,
and I guess I'll open the floor to you of
(11:38):
give me, give me an example of a positive of
a effective, efficient way to use that time, and then
maybe on the other side of that, and I'll give
you I'll give you mind to just give you a
heads up on that. But ten questions drive me insane,
drive me on a scale of one. As soon as
I hear on a scale of I'm out, I'm out
(11:59):
on that.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
So I'll give you and tell you that I would
probably start to itch if I sat in on those interviews,
because that's what I do for a living. And so
I'm gonna give you some advice to your audience that
has nothing to do with the specifics that you're looking for,
because I don't know what you all are looking for,
but I really want to add value to you, and
I think this is going to do it. And this
is coming from a guy who's coached over ten thousand
(12:21):
people live on the radio. Okay, so I've learned how
to do professional coaching, and any coach seminar, any licensing
or training you go through, they're going to teach you this.
And this is what I'm gonna give you. Stop asking
why questions. Remove the word why at the beginning of
any question, and so in your prep next time you're
(12:43):
interviewing a kid, whether it be in the college, you're
just talking to a kid, stop using the word why.
Here's what we know from psychology that it immediately puts
that person on the defensive, and use a what question,
and hostage negotiators use this. So anytime you're tempted to
(13:05):
ask a question and you would normally put the word
why in it. And I'd go so far as to
train yourself on this by putting an index card or
something in front of you, a sticky note when you got
these interviews and say, don't use the word why or
know why, and then train your brain to go what,
and it changes the question. Give you an example, why
(13:26):
are you having issues with all the girls you're dating?
It keeps popping up. You're gonna put a kid on
the defensive. What you got to do is go what
do you see as some patterns in your life that
have gotten you into some stuff that I know you're
not proud of and you want to grow through. What
do you think is going on there now? I'm gonna
(13:47):
tell you that may not seem like a big difference,
but it's a massive difference. And just begin to watch
people open up when you ask what. When you ask why,
even the question itself becomes very pointed. But when you
ask what, you take on this curiosity stance, which is
what a question should be, and it essentially hands the
ball back to that person and they don't feel like
(14:08):
they've got to answer and defend what you've just said.
I'm gonna tell you, I think that'd be the advice
that I would give, And watch the responses become a
more honest and and be rich. They're gonna be richer
answers and they're gonna give you and so all professional coaches.
If I'm doing a financial coaching session or if I'm
(14:28):
doing a professional coaching session with a CEO DJ, I'm
constantly asking what CEO gives me an answer, then I
go what, And I keep following up with what? What? What?
What makes you feel that way? You know what? What
in your past do you think has influenced that? And man,
you're six feet deep right now, and now you're getting
(14:49):
to see the real person. And when you're evaluating talent,
whether again they're already in your college program and you're
trying to figure out should I put them on the field?
Do they got are there's their head where it needs
to be for Saturday? Man, I'm using what questions?
Speaker 2 (15:01):
So I'm gonna give you my favorite one that I've
you know, and I've been asking people about this for,
you know, twenty years, trying to figure out the best
way to get a good answer, a usable, learnable answer
from these players as they're coming through the process. So
this is my favorite one that I've heard over the years,
is what does a successful rookie season look like?
Speaker 1 (15:21):
For you? Beautiful?
Speaker 2 (15:23):
And You'll be amazed. That seems like a very simple question.
You'll be amazed what you can learn from that from
two different levels here. The first thing is you'll think
you'll see guys who think team first, and you'll see
guys who think individually first. Because you know, you'll hear
guys say what is a successful work year? Well, we're
gonna we're gonna have a winning season, We're gonna win
the division, We're gonna, you know, go to the playoffs
(15:43):
and win a Super Bowl. That's what is a success
to me. And you're gonna have other people say what
a successful year to me is. I'm gonna have growth.
They'll talk about how I'm gonna get better. I'm gonna
be better in the in game one than I was
in the preseason. I'm gonna be better Week eight, and
I'm gonna, you know, just continue to get better throughout
my rookie yar, I'm gonna learn, I'm gonna grow. And
then you'll hear other people who give a very simple
answer of I'm gonna be the rookie of the year.
(16:05):
I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna go to the Pro Bowl,
you know, like, and I'm not saying that that's completely wrong,
but I'm saying, you're going to learn a lot about
the wiring of the player when you just ask.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
You just described that so beautifully, because you're gonna get
two very different answers. You know, here's one. Here's one
that I would use. I'd love to give samples and
your audience could reject this one. But listening to you
talk it made me think of something. Here's here's a
really fun question for evaluating NFL talent. I'd ask them
(16:35):
what questions ideally is the media asking you after a
game on Sunday? Make them think first of all, because
they got to think through that, and what I just
did to them there was I'm taking them to postgame
and the media is they're sitting in front of the
media and the media is asking questions, and you're making
(16:55):
them really dig there by going what are the ideal questions?
What questions do you want to hear from the media
based on your performance on Sundays? Now that makes a
kid think first of all, and to your point, it's
going to reveal some depth. You know, I want to
hear a kid say, you know, you just were all
(17:16):
over the field today, what supplements are you taking? I
want them to be creative, you know, like like because
I got so much juice on the field, and I'm
everywhere and the announcers were calling my name all day long.
You know that you want them saying, So that's a
creative way to make a kid actually think and so
fun thing there. They don't have to be great at
(17:37):
the answer right away, but I'll tell you the ones
that can quickly get there and give you some great answers.
You know, two things are going on. One they got
some character. There's some character revealed in the answer. But
the ones that are quick on their feet, that kind
of a question is going to reveal the kids that
can actually process information pretty quickly. I would think I
could be wrong on that, but take them to a
(17:59):
snail and make them process a scenario. I like that.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
One of the things we've always talked about with quarterbacks,
and I'm curious if this carries over into the business
world and on a leadership skial. We've we've found over
the years that recall has been important with quarterbacks. So
if I can ask you, you know, hey, I'm we
always tell the story about Patrick Mahomes. When Patrick Mahomes
came in the studio two weeks before the draft and
there was questions about Mahomes I had him. Bucky did
(18:26):
as well about Okay, he kind of played reckless at
Texas Tech. You know, footwork was kind of all over
the place. This is just this wild stallion with this
huge arm, and you're kind of like, I don't know
what what do I make of this? Nobody from this
system has really been successful at the next level. But man,
he's got all these tools. And we brought him in
just before the draft, and I remember saying, you know,
TCU Week three, third quarter, you guys are driving. You know,
(18:48):
do you remember you know how that ended? What that
drive looked like. He gave me the play call, the
coverage they were in the read that he made and
told me everything about the whole process and it and
for some reason, and I don't know the exact answer,
I just feel like some of it is, you know,
being successful in the NFL is about a rolldex. It's
just a roll dex of experiences and then being able
(19:09):
to call back and rely on those experiences, think about
you know, the great all timers, And this is in
any sport. Usually what happens is you gain your wisdom
and your knowledge and your experience that goes up while
your talent level and athleticism goes down. But there's a
sweet spot in there where they're both meet and that's
where you get Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, you know, Lebron, James,
(19:31):
Michael Jordan, wherever where that experience and the athleticism is
still there. And I think with technology changes and training changes,
you're seeing guys able to hang in that zone longer
than they ever have before. But to me, recall that
roll dex of information is very valuable.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Yeah, and you know that right there is an example
of you know that. So if you're listening to the show,
you just heard what DJ said. So now you're coming
up with really unique questions to see if we got
good strong recall, and now you're designing an interview that
is very very specific. You know, we know this from
the corporate world, DJ, And this is back to your
(20:08):
initial focus here on questions for talent evaluation. You know,
we know in the in the corporate world that it's
the number one thing that bosses hate is doing job interviews.
So they kind of make it up as they go along.
And I'm not saying that scouts are doing that or gms.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
They don't have direction a lot of them have never
we've been taught what what a three technique looks like
when he gets up the field and the explosiveness and
how fluid he is and can you flip your hips?
But for the most part, and they'll say you need
to go spend time interview this player talk to that
they've never taught them how to interview. That's that's not
their fault.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
That's right, we'll see. That shocks me. And so I'm
gonna tell you something right now. I'm so glad you
revealed that. If you take anything away from this podcast,
and I hope we're adding value to you folks, but
if you get nothing else, become a great question askerr
because that sounds like you now have a massive advantage
in talent assessment and really figuring out because people aren't
teaching how to ask questions. By the way, Harvard has
(21:05):
got data on this that it's in the low ninety
percent of all bad hires happened as a result of
the interview process. Wow, So this is you know, this
is to me. If you're talent evaluator and you're listening
and watching this, become a great question asker. It's going
to give you a absolute distinct advantage because you're going
(21:27):
to learn stuff that other people don't learn.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
All right, let's take a quick pause, a quick break,
and we will get right back to this fascinating conversation
with Ken Coleman. How do you quantify things? This is
something we talked about last week, or maybe it was
two weeks ago, but we know of two teams and
(21:49):
we didn't want to mention the teams to put them
on Front Street, but it was us. It was fascinating
because to give you a little glimpse on the scouting
side of things, you go through and you'll have and
when you're writing up you're inside your computer, you'll have
position specific notes. So it'd be like a corner and
have all the different traits that you look for, and
you we would write comments in there and then you'd
have your summary, so you'd write, you know, a paragraph
(22:10):
plus on the player to give the whole the whole
way we were taught, you know, going back twenty years ago,
and the way it's always been done is that we're
going to paint a picture for everybody. So when you're
in the room and you hear us read our report,
you're gonna even if you haven't seen the player. You're
gonna know what he looks like based off how we
write it. But these two teams, and one of which
has been very successful in the NFL, are no longer
writing reports. They are dragging and dropping. So they have
(22:34):
a list of like terms and descriptors, but they've been
able to attach kind of a number system to that.
So when you're writing your report, they're just taking from
that bank and putting it over here. And then what
they've done is now they have data over a long
period of time, like, for instance, you know, I'll just
make something up her corners that struggle to tackle, Well,
that's been tagged now, so they can go back through
(22:57):
and look and say, well, there's a strong correlation between
owners who don't tackle in college that they are going
to have a hard time in the NFL. Or maybe
there's no correlation at all. But they're able to take
all this data from these reports now and they're able
to quantify things and say this is these are the
important factors, these ones not so much. This is a good, uh,
you know, idea of of what this should look like
(23:18):
for a successful player. Can you do that in the
business world? And do you believe in this little shift
in philosophy here.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
You can't do that in the business world because you
don't have all that data. You don't have true, you
don't have combines. The best you have.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
The best you have is you have spreadsheets in the
performance I guess from your companies, but I don't know what.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Yeah, but if you're talking about hiring somebody, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So if you're talking about in the context you just
asked me, they're treing about drafting somebody, if you're talking
about hiring somebody or signing a free agent h in
the corporate world, the best you have as a resume
and some references right now. Once they come to work
for you, you can start measuring things.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
But could you do core key areas like could you
say when you're interviewing somebody and say, hey, these are
the twelve factors that make we believe make a great
employee and a few hundreds or higher than this on
the interview process, we're not going to bring you into
the bilding.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Yes now to that absolutely, And so they're you can
do it, and I think that it's helpful to do it.
But what I would focus on is I'd have my Okay,
let's let's talk about culture stuff. Are they gonna fit
on the team that we're looking at putting them on.
Let's look at values and stuff like that to see
if they're a culture fit. I would look at obviously,
(24:25):
skill set. You gotta be super like and you gotta
know it. You gotta gotta have ways of testing that
in the interview so you know you're not being lied to.
And I'm a big fan of letting somebody do a
half day's worth of work or something like that, or
come up with a way to do that, and let's go,
let's see if they're an actor or if they can produce.
(24:46):
But I would say, as I heard you talk about that,
the only thing I would always have a fail safe.
I'm going to call it a fail safe for lack
of a better word. I think sometimes we could be
we quantify too much system stuff and we can miss
the diamond in the rough. If you will, you know it.
(25:09):
You could look at well, they didn't have this, they
didn't have this or this. But I'd want to go, okay,
but but man, we're looking at him. Why are we
looking at him? What are we missing? And I would
have some type of system to go. Is there anything
that we're missing here that that explains why the quantifiable
data isn't matching up? In other words, was the kid
(25:29):
a good tackler in high school but he wasn't a
good tackler in college? Was he hurt? Yeah? Was he hurt.
I'll give you a real personal example. My son. My
son is an absolute ballhawk. He's gonna be he's gonna
be a senior. And over his career, he's had one
(25:49):
coach that I'm thinking of who crapped on his spirit.
And by the way, full disclosure, I did not. I'm
not the parent that goes in during the season and
has the talk. Not the guy at all, the coach
on speed dial, do not. It never works, first of all,
and then I honored my sons. But here's my point.
(26:10):
We did meet after the season and the question was posed
to me, and I pointed out, what you're looking at
as a lack of effort is not a lack of effort.
I'm gonna tell you what it is. Because I've raised
a kid, I know him, and I've not called you
have I no, you didn't at all? No emails, no,
no emails. I said, I'm gonna tell you what happened.
(26:31):
You need to go ask him about this moment and
this moment in this moment, and I'm gonna tell you
what happened. Yes, it was a lack of effort, but
you're focused on the lack of effort instead of figuring
out what happened to the kid's spirit. You will not
get effort from a kid with a crushed spirit. So
that's one kind of example to go if we feel
(26:52):
like the kids got a shot, but it doesn't look
like it's adding up over here in all these fancy quantifiables. Yeah,
I don't want to go. Is there there's something there
that just we coach that we lead that and we
turned the dial up that would be I hope that
makes sense. Yeah. I just think if you get so
hung up on principles, you forget that this is a
(27:14):
people business. And I think that plays in the NFL
college and I also think it plays in the corporate world.
Don't get so reliant on your principles that you forget
there are some people elements here that could change the principles.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Yeah, and I think we've seen an emphasis on that
more so over the last couple of years, where some
of the best teams have shrunk their draft boards. They've
eliminated a lot of people because they're focused on we're
gonna these are the sixty people who fit. And within
those sixty people, we got to find seven players that
we can draft that are going to you know, that
have come in here and be successful, but they've made
(27:48):
the commitment. And I know one specifically is one of
the best run organizations of the NFL. We are just
simply not going to miss on the person. We will
forgive ourselves if we miss on the player. We're not
going to miss on the person on the wiring, on
the makeup and all those things. So we're going to
shrink our pool. And those are the guys we're going
to select from. And they've they've got adults. They've got
a bunch of adults in the room. This this group
(28:10):
has focused a lot more on players who have you know,
been in college state like like four years. You can
stay shoot some of them seven years now, but a
lot of four year guys so maybe a red shirt,
maybe they've played three came after the junior year, but
four years in college guys who've competed in the Senior Bowl.
So in an era where everybody's sitting out games and
doesn't want These guys just love to compete, so they
(28:30):
want to go compete, and they compete the Senior Bowl.
Maybe they've even gone through the whole combine process and
haven't backed away from that. But there's just a lot
of different factors that they've they've they've figured out quite honestly,
that these are the right people and within that, you're
still going to miss because it's imperfect, you're going to
miss on some players, but they've just made it their
goal that, hey, you know, we will miss on players
(28:52):
here and there, We're not going to strike out on
the person as much as.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
We have in the past. See I love that. I'll
just say this real quick again for your audience, trying
to give your audience something here for you. They're in
talent evaluating and you're coaching kids. This may be cheesy,
but if I were in the coaching business, or if
I was in the talent GM world, I'm all for
the stars because you got to rank all that stuff,
because I got to be able to play, especially on Sunday.
(29:17):
But I'd want to know I'd have a heart scale.
He's a five star, but what's his heart? And I'm
talking about character spirit, the juice has this kid got
crazy levels of grit. I would have a scale on
the people side and I'd call it heart, and I'd go,
(29:38):
he's a two He's a five star player. A two
heart player.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
That's a problem.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Now we look at it and go, why is he
a two heart? If he was coached poorly in college
and he had some meglomaniac position. Coach screamed at him
and his dad screamed at him growing up. No, I'm serious,
and there's a wound there. Wait a second. If I
draft this kid and put my arm around him and
give him affirmation that he's never had before, we got
(30:07):
ourselves a five heart. So I just think, and again,
I know it's limited and all this kind of stuff
in the time people have, but I do believe in
what you just said. I think that organization they're going
to win in the long run because and again I
hate to say this, but everybody talks about Tom Brady,
but I don't know what everybody missed with that kid.
We don't know. I don't know. I've never actually sat
(30:28):
and listened to anybody who scouted him back then. I
wish I had. I'm biased, I'm a Michigan guy, but
I mean, you know, he didn't have a whole lot
of quantifiables apparently, but did he But did he? I
mean did he develop an arm? Did he develop an accuracy?
Did he develop recall after he got the NFL? Or
did he already have it? What is your take?
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Well, to me, everything got accentuated. I do think his
arm got stronger as he got to the NFL, and
you saw his part of his thing was you had
the Drew Henson factor at Michigan. So he's in and
out the line up there, he's always looking to you know,
he's going to be replaced. Then you have he goes,
he gets sick, goes to the combine, he looks thin,
he's not you know, it doesn't look great from that standpoint.
(31:10):
So that spring didn't go well for him. But then
to me, I think with Tom Brady, we did a
whole thing on this. When I was with the Ravens,
we did a whole study on him in the early
two thousands, once he started to pop, and I had
I had not scouted when he was I think we're
actually the same age, But I had not been in
the NFL when he came in the NFL. So it
was interesting to sit in there and see and when
you read through the people's reports that had gone in there,
(31:30):
there was a lot of it. A lot of the
good stuff was kind of was hidden inside there, and
you saw things which for my this for me, my
Tom Brady is Brock Purdy. Where Brock Purdy is the
last pick of the draft. He's mister irrelevant and people
can say where does he stack up? Is he top ten,
is he top fifteen, is you know, whatever you want
to say. The guy has been probably the greatest success
(31:52):
story in NFL draft history. Is nobody's been the last
pick of the draft and gone, you know, done what
he's done as a Super Bowl quarterback and someone who
just got whateverwo hundred and fifty million bucks. But when
I went and called Iowa State and called Matt Campbell,
their head coach after his first year playing, and I said, Coach,
what I miss on this guy? Because when I watched him,
I saw average size, average arm strength, maybe a little
(32:13):
bit above average athleticism, Like statistically he was accurate, but
that you know, I didn't jump off the numbers, didn't
jump off the page that way, and he goes, he
goes DJ He is the most competitive practice player I
have ever coached. He's a maniac competitor. So that was
one piece of that. So that filled in a little
bit of that circle for me. Then I got a
(32:33):
chance to spend a lot of time with Brock and
asked him. I said, hey, without taking crazy pills, because
when you were when I was watching you, I didn't
like your arm strength was a question for me, you know.
And he said, look, he said, when I finished playing,
I had that sprain to get ready for the draft,
and I, you know, got his personal coaches and they're like,
you are you have worked too hard, You're too muscled up.
(32:54):
You need to lose weight, you need to be a
little more elastic. So he took that advice and that coaching.
It limbered him up. It loosened him up. He ended
up getting more velocity on the ball. He was more
he was just everything about him was more smooth and
more natural. But so then this is kind of competing
the puzzle. And my takeaway was this, Ken, if you
have somebody who has enough ability and they are maniacal workers,
(33:17):
they're incredibly intelligent, and they they will not be denied.
You bet on those guys all day long. They're going
to figure it out. And that's the same thing with
Tom Brady. He's a maniac, competitor, psycho, he's a psychopath.
And those guys are the guys that you just say,
he'll figure it out.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
That's right. I couldn't agree more. And by the way,
that's a lesson for corporate America too. You know, that's
just the hunger. You know, Pat Lenciona, You know Pat,
Pat's become a dear friend. Lives two streets over from
me now here in Franklin, Tennessee. And Pat and I
talked about this one time when he came out with
the book The Ideal team Player, which has been a
runaway success, and and he talks about humble, hungry, and
(33:55):
people smart are the three characteristics. He says smart, but
what he means is non intelligence. He means like people smart.
But we talked about the hunger thing, and I was
interviewing him. I said, Pat, I have an opinion on this,
but I want to ask you first. I said, can
you teach hunger? He went nope, And I went, I agree,
like it's not teachable. Yep, either have it or you don't.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Do you agree with that one hundred percent? One hundred percent?
I agree with it. And it's in their wiring, and
it's you know, you can use makeup wiring, DNA, whatever
term you want to use with guys, but there is
there's something different and it's hard to describe, but you
know it when you see it. And that goes back
to your point about how do you some things can't
be quantifiable. I saw it and the players that I've
been around, if you were to just go size up
(34:39):
Ed Reid, you know, with all the different safeties in
the NFL, and just if you just did a lineup
and looked at him, you're like, he's who was this guy?
He's just maybe the best safety of all time. Took
Ray Lewis and put him in a lineup with linebackers,
he wouldn't look any anything out of out of the ordinary.
But they are incredible competitors. Every great player I've ever
been around had that had that right, and they make
(35:00):
others better. They make others better around them.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
I think the hungriest player I've all I've ever in
my life laid eyes on and I had I had
the privilege of being his booking agent twenty some years ago.
Mike Singletary hungriest. Oh yeah, not a particularly big guy.
Yeah you saw the hunger your word, psychopath when he
was on the field.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
I worked with him.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Yeah, that's who was our linebackers.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
This is a groggy, a great Mike Singletary story. So
he come he gets hired as our linebacker coach. We
already have the best defense in the league, ray Lewis,
and the defensive Player of the Year. Ray Lewis has
won the Super Bowl in Super Bowl MVP, like, our
defense is being discussed as one of the all time
great defenses in NFL history. So Singletary comes in to
be the linebackers coach. He's got I mean, he's not
just ray Lewis. We've got all a room full of
(35:46):
studs in there, and he's got out there, you know,
like the the cage or like the bars, so you'd
have to stay low like going through him like in
the seventies and eighties. We've got that thing out there,
and I mean an individual before we get to like team,
he is running these guys and training him like it's
it's like it's Jack Lambert like level stuff and like
(36:07):
they had to tell a hey, coach like these this
isn't these guys are already in shape, Like we don't.
We don't need to kill these guys an individual. We
have the best defense in the league. Let's just teach
them what to do and keep them.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Remember the Titans.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Yes, yes, but he that was his, that was his,
that was his way of doing it. It was always
gonna be all hard percent of the time. But yeah, Ken,
you've been You've been generous with your time. I'm gonna
I'm gonna end on this one last question. Okay, uh
and then and I'll let you run. If you were
if you were going to hire a college head coach,
(36:41):
talked a lot about the NFL. If you're going to
hire a college head coach, and the landscape has changed
a lot, and it's you know, n I L and
transfer portal, all those things. Give me, give me a
couple traits you would look for that will will lead
to at least a probability of success in an ever
changing landscape in college ball.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Man, that is a great question.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
A couple because I'm fast, and I'll give you this
little tip here geting point. I am fascinated and talking
I talked to college coaches all the time, and when
I used to talk about recruiting and what do you
look for? And I'm trying to learn, always trying to
learn and grow. There my thing I am fascinated with
is retention. How are you going to keep your players?
(37:25):
No longer playing offense anymore, You've got to play defense
with the guys already in your building.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
What is what is the.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Key to retention in a world where these guys are
scattered all over the globe.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
That's where I was headed. I'm going to give you
two for shortness of time. This is what I personally
believe on this one. I think there is Here's I'll
set it up. There's a difference between coaching men and
young men. Yeah, and now we've got young men. And
I was on the phone with an assistant ad at
(37:56):
the school that I think is on your shirt right there, Fayl. Yeah,
And he was telling me about what we were talking
about the finances of these young people, and he was
getting my thoughts on we got to coach these kids
on how to handle their money. They're millionaires now, and
so we're talking about the financial piece. And that accentuates
this point. Number one, they're young men. Their frontal lobes
(38:17):
are not fully developed. They are not a twenty eight
year old, thirty year old pro. They are eighteen year
old millionaires who have been treated like the prince of Egypt,
most of them. So that's our context for these two traits.
So I think number one, you got to have discernment.
And I do think this is a skill that can
be developed. I think you can take classes on it.
(38:40):
I think you can learn how to really ask good
questions like we've been talking about. But you better develop
the ability to read young men. I mean read them.
They may say one thing, but you better be able
to figure out what's going on underneath. And the ability
to be discerning is huge. The second thing is is
the ability to build trust. And I think these two
(39:03):
go hand in hand. You're gonna have to be discerning
on the front end to be able to ask the questions,
to be able to pay attention to talk to their
position coaches, to meet them outside the football field. You're
gonna have to get your eyes on them and really
read them and see what's going on with them. And
then to that level as you begin to ask questions
and relate with them, then they will begin to trust you.
(39:27):
But I think if you're a great reader of people
and a great trust builder, those would be the two
traits that I would want to start with. Because you
can call plays, you can win the living room. There's
plenty of guys like that. But to your point, if
retention is the game, and I think it is until
this landscape changes, I think those would be two of
(39:47):
the most important traits. Can I read people well, really
read these kids and be so tuned in, get my
antenna up, and then can I build trust with them?
Because if they trust you, they're going to stay with you.
The really good ones, they're going to the league whether
they play for you or somebody else. That's the reality.
So if you want to keep them, you're going to
(40:08):
keep them because they trust you. They've been told they're
great their whole life. They got pressure to take care
of their family, they got pressure from the media. You
guys know all the things. But to the extent that
you can read them and build trust with them, I
think that gives you the edge on retention.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
That is a phenomenal way to wrap this thing up, man,
because it is to me. I think there's real advantages
to be had out there, and it's not just who
has the deepest pocketbook. In a world where every day
you're looking to see who was able to reel one in,
we don't ever see the headlines of who was able
to keep one in the fold. And I think that
might be what's more important in terms of the teams
(40:47):
that are going to ultimately get the big prize out
there is not only who you go out and get,
but who you hold on to. Who do you keep
so great advice from Ken there. I hope you guys
have enjoyed this conversation as much as I have. I
know I kept you a little bit long there, Ken,
but you are You're one of my favorites, man. I
appreciate your friendship and I always I always take pages
full of notes when we get a chance to get together.
I appreciate you, buddy.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Well, I appreciate you. You're the best in the business. ESPN
better back up a Brinks truck to you, because you're
the best there is.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
They might be buying it. Who knows, they might be
buying the whole network. I don't know why, I know
I heard that crazy. I just think you're the best
there is.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Your preparation, your kindness, and also I want to brag
to your audience of what a true gentleman and true
great man, husband and father you are behind the scenes.
He's not just a whiz with his ability to discern.
You get the gift to discernment, and it's been very
obvious as you've shined on the draft coverage. That's not
(41:41):
just preparation. You do have discernment. And I appreciate you too, Bro.
Anytime I love talking leadership of football and culture on
stuff like this, I don't get to do these podcasts
as much as I like, so it's always fun to
be with you.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
You're the best I know. Everybody enjoyed this as much
as I have. I appreciate you guys hanging with us,
and we'll see you next time. Right here, unmoved the
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