January 12, 2015 • 24 mins
Brian Billick is joined by former NFL head coach Dick Vermeil to recap the Divisional Round games, discuss Peyton Manning and his future with the Broncos and the tremendous play from Andrew Luck and the Colts defense. Plus, Coach Vermeil makes the case for Kurt Warner as a first ballot Hall of Famer.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Everybody in his Marcus Grand here from NFL dot com
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Sign up today. This is NFL dot Com Coaches Show
Podcast Thirty men together, can't lose. This is why you
lift all day. But abody and down we're going. There's
(01:48):
a glean, man, there's a glean. Welcome to a special
edition of the Coaches Show. I'm Brian Billick, and I
can't tell you how thrilled I am to be joined
by the Godfather of coach as we call him, Dick
vermil Dick. Thank you so much for taking the time.
Always great to be with you, Brian. You know that well.
You know. There's so many subjects I want to get into,
(02:08):
but the first one I want to bring up is
and I'm going to write about it this week because
I do it this time every year, and I always
when I was coaching, I would look at the four
teams in the championship games and say, Okay, what does
this say about the league? What is there some direction?
Is there something I can glean from what these four
teams tell us about where we're going as a league,
(02:29):
what you need to do to compete and be successful.
Is there anything that comes to mind when you see
the four teams that are in the playoffs are in
the championship games this week, that that coaches could look
at and say, this is kind of the this is
what you have to do to be in the championship
game in the NFL. Well, you know, it's blaring and
they've about four fine quarterbacks. You know all of what
quarterback efficiency rating is better than all the way up
(02:51):
to one twelve. So as you know, if you don't
have that guy, it is tough to win on defense
alone and just an average player at that position, and
more so today than I think ever before. Yeah, I
think the thing that that in conjunction with that, because
we know it's a quarterback driven league, you know, and
if you don't have one of those guys, you better
be in the process of finding one or developing one.
(03:12):
But the thing that struck me as well as I
look at these teams specifically is the balance, probably more
so than we've had in a few years, where typically
we might have a team that's really strong offensively but
only so so defensively, or even vice versa. But these
teams are all together collectively probably as good as anybody
in the league. When you combine their offensive overall ranking
(03:34):
and their defense. These teams represent all top ten teams
in that regard. Is that balance kind of say something about, yes,
you gotta have a great quarterback, but you know what,
you better make sure you pack a fairly good defense
as well, and no question, and you better have a
very fine personnel department making very few mistakes because now
you don't have the time on the practice fields develop
(03:55):
your own kids. You've got to get them getting ready
to play and play, you know, in the limit on
practice sessions, a limited on pads, a limit on O
t A s and mini cants and all this stuff.
Now it is tough. If you're a losing team, you
can't work harder to catch up. You've got to do
the same things that the teams are already doing to
beat you, so you better have a hell of a
personal personnel department. Steve and I have talked about that
(04:18):
all year long. Have we gone too far with the
collective Bargaining Agreement in terms of the way we're allowed
to prepare our athletes? Now? No question, no question in
my mind, every coach that I know well, that I
feel communicate with, says the same thing, especially the offensive
line coaches. In the quarterback coaches, you know, you can't
keep a quarterback out. Maybe you've got a third quarterback
(04:39):
there's gonna have to play somewhere down the road. Well,
you can't teach him out on the practice field. You
can't send him home with videotape and that stept to
study and then talk to him about it when he's home.
There's you know, in the offensive lineman personally, I think
I see deterioration of fundamental offensive line play. Now when
you see guy gets sacked, it's fundamentally the reason he
(05:00):
gave up a sack, not that he wasn't physically capable
of path protecting. His hand placement was poor as foot
movement was lousy, and you just don't get enough work
with those guys. Yeah, an area that that I've speculated
for a while and watching all the games on Sunday
for Game Day Live that I do. It seems like
we had more special teams, breakdowns, blocked punts, block p
(05:20):
a t s, block field goals, returns of kicks, which
I think also might be a function of that lack
of of practice time, no question, no question, I'd like
to believe. You know, the last three years I have
had the opportunity to coach the nfl PA All Star Game.
I didn't do it this year for other recent so
I'm not out there as of today. I would be there,
(05:41):
but I I banged on Jason Beltzer, Ernie Conwell, on
other people that are trend games, that are involved in
running the players Association. I say, guys, you you shot
yourself in the foot. You're you're you're shortening the career
of the average player. You're really hurting the young quarterback.
We can't develop our own guys, and you're hurting the league.
(06:02):
And you know they started to agree with me. Yeah,
every coach I talked to I kind of hear the
same thing. Of course, we coaches, what would practice forever
if we could, but but I still think we may
have gone to kind of a bridge too far. Will
you bring up an interesting point? Of course, we've got
to talk about Peyton Manning and and not only specifically
but in general, because we've both had to deal with
that older veteran player that was on the cusp of
(06:25):
making that transition out of the game. Is there anybody
that comes to mind that that was that was a
tough transition for you that maybe you had to prod
a player to say, Look, I think I think you
ought to think real long and hard about this before
you before coming back and playing next year. Well, I
go all the way back to my first year with
the Philadelphi Eagles nineteen seventy six. Roman Gabriel had been
(06:47):
traded here. I had coached Roman at the Rams and
seventy one and seventy two. They traded him in seventy
three when Chuck Knox took over. Uh, you know, and
it was time. But he was so tough and loved
that games so much. You know, they don't see it
the same way. They don't see it the way and
you know, and Peyton Manning, I mean, he still had
a wonderful quarterback efficiency ready used your my gosh, when
(07:10):
you look at what he did it one quarterback efficiency. Ready,
you can count on two hands the number of guys
have had that over a few years, you know, So
he can still play. I personally, I thought they limited
him a little bit in the game, uh, but not
letting him go down field more. They didn't challenge anybody
very often downfield. Yeah, and then ones they did the
(07:32):
only the thing that I looked at that and I'm
like everybody you look at it. Remember we we wrote
off Tom Brady in the first three or four weeks
of the season. How silly does that look right now?
And to write off Peyton Manning would be ridiculous. But no, yeah,
no question. The deep ball, the deep balls he did
throw his normal accuracy, and as you and I both know,
the deep balls at a function of timing and touch,
(07:54):
not of a strong arm. And it looked like he
was pushing the ball a little bit, maybe because it
is the quad. Maybe just there's circumstance he's in. But
early on in particular, I don't know if it was
physical or not. Um it'll be a tough time. And
obviously he raised the question afterward as well, because he
kind of raide the specter of I don't know. I
(08:15):
remember when Jonathan Ogden are are someone you're very familiar with,
obviously an All Hall of Fame left tackle in Baltimore.
My last year there, Jonathan, who had to have his
toe injected every game the last season, basically said coach,
the want is there, but it wasn't playing in the season.
To bother them, He says, I don't know if I
can face an off season of rehab. I just don't
(08:35):
know if I can do it again, and that ultimately
led to him retiring. Yeah, well like it. But you know,
Peyton Manny, for example, had more in my numbers, had
more passes for twenty yards or more than anybody else
in the lake. Complete, Okay, And uh so you know
it's still there. And it didn't all of a sudden
just run out at the end of the season, I
(08:56):
don't think, unless he really got tired. But I just
don't doubt it enough. I firstly, because his name is
so big to the league and so important to the
PR League. I think I'd like to see him come
back and play another year. And I believe you will. Yeah,
part of it may very well be they could very
well go through transition. They have a lot of players,
uh that are up possible free agency. The club's going
(09:17):
to half be aggressive. We see this every year. Coach,
you had to deal with it as well. In terms
of the changing profle we're almost to the point where
we're like our college days because there's about attrition rate
in terms of what you can do with the cap
and and the number of players that that might make
a change. I can't imagine that that's not going to
be a factor for him as well in terms of Okay, yeah,
(09:38):
I'll come back and I'll go the rehab and I'll
do all the things that I know how to do it.
But what kind of team are we going to be
going forward? Yeah? Oh, I agree with you. I know
the best team I ever had was the Super Bowl
championship team at the Rams. There were nine players on
that roster that were there when I took over three
years earlier. Nine guys left. So you get a tremendous turnover,
(10:01):
and especially so in a so called rebuilding program. But
you still get that, Like you say that turnover, Yeah,
John Harbor, I thought did a phenomenal job with that
week secondary they had and almost so I just kept
thinking they were going to pull that game out in
New England. But they team they were I think most
people would say that, and they are. They have two
(10:23):
thirds of their roster has turned over since their Super
Bowl two years ago. So that's just the nature of
the league. Right now, Um, let's talk. Listen. If I
can't change gears, I want to talk a little bit
about that game and John Harbon. Obviously the job that
Bill Belichick does. A lot is being said about some
of the things that the New England Patriots did in
terms of personnel and declaring who's eligible. None of it
(10:46):
was illegal. It was all within the rules. That's that's
just being a good coach, isn't it going right? Yeah,
and you used to pull some of those things. I
learned it all from you, now from me. But yes,
they are the un They're good for the game. Yeah,
it challenges you, and yeah, and you know being creative
that that is all part of it. There's no question
(11:07):
about that, Brian. I read in the paper this morning
that they've been working on that play for six or
seven weeks. It's just never running on the game. Yeah.
And if flabbergasted me that Julian Edelman, who was a
college quarterback at Kent State, had never thrown that play.
Throwing a touchdown past four in this league, you to
think that it pulled out at sometimes, So like you said,
that's just uh, that's keeping one in your back pocket
(11:29):
and and pulling it out a good time. Let's I
want to move on to um the Dez Bryant catch
no catch. I did the Calvin Johnson game against Chicago.
That kind of began and we couldn't we know it
as the Calvin Johnson rule. Now, the the possession through
the process. You're seeing it with kind of unfiltered eyes
(11:50):
on the outside. What do you make of the legalities
and the and the minutia we've now brought into determining
what's a catch and what's not a catch? Well, I
remember your game, Okay, I thought it was a catch.
Yesterday I saw it and I thought it was a catch.
But by the rule it was not a KTCH as
interpreted today. That's all hers do it. It's very defined.
As you know the rules better than I do. It's defined,
(12:12):
and I did you know, I don't know who's right
and who's wrong. If you do it the other way,
they're still gonna have instant replay and decisions to make,
and humans have to make those decisions. But by the
rule they called it correct, absolutely right. I remembered after
that game, as I was going back to the airport,
I called my my then ninety year old mother, who
you know, loves the game and listens to whatever game
(12:34):
I'm doing, and I was trying She was asking me, well,
how come that wasn't a touchdown? And only in the
wisdom of a ninety year old I was trying to
explain to her why it wasn't and her response was classic.
It was, oh, my, that just doesn't make sense, because
if it looks like what do they say, if it
looks like a duck, if it walks like a duck,
if it quacks like a duck, then it's a duck.
But but when you talk to the officials, and I
(12:56):
know when this was put through with the league, it
was trying to remove any ambiguity from one one crew
to the next in terms of judgmental So they thought
that this continuation of the process would would define it
more specifically, and in that regard it probably has because
as you look at the two clearly not maintaining possession
(13:16):
through the process that that at least made it a
clear line that it was crossed to say it wasn't
a catch, no question. You know. The other thing is
that play and a few others that took place during
the year will be you know what, the owners meetings,
they'll be up for great discussions and they'll rehash it.
Chances are they won't change it, but it will be
the rule will be better embedded in everybody's minds going
(13:38):
in the next year. Yeah. Another thing I think they're
going to discuss is, I'm interested in your opinion on it.
The defensive holding and past interference quadrupled from last year.
Have we gone too far with the interpretation of that,
I think so. Well. First off, it's a game of
extreme movement, and it's it's starting to take away from
(14:00):
the game as a fan. I'm a fan. Carol's sitting
over there on the other chair work fans, and it's
there's so many penalties now they'll probably come out with
a number. There aren't any more penalties this year than
the other before, but it sure seems like it. Yeah,
so if that did, if they do that, then someone's
cooking the books because I'm not buying that at all,
and and what what bothers me is also in watching
(14:22):
the game as a fan and now commenting on it,
it seems like the receivers come up after every single
play looking for the flag. They're looking around like, well,
the guy touched me, so where's the flag? On every
single incomplete pass, it's like, well, where's the flag? I
know it? And sometimes he gets it called when it
wasn't going to be called, I think. But you know,
(14:43):
it's just when people move full speed, there's found to
be some bumping around role when it's not flagrant or
intentionally grabbing or pulling the guy. I I don't know.
I I have a hard time with it. I really do,
because now I watched television. I don't of its past
interference or not. And from one game to the next,
I know they try to standardize it. But well, before
(15:05):
we move off that game, let's talk a little bit
about the game that Aaron Rodgers had. I mean, when
I talked to coaches around the league, and I'm one
of them that believe the same way we've I can't
remember as being as deep and good quarterback play ever
in the league. We're talking about four or five guaranteed
Hall of Famers currently playing a couple of guys on
the ride of this. Andrew Luck is unbelievable. But at
the end of the day, most people, I think think
(15:28):
Aaron Rodgers is still the best quarterback in the game today.
I wouldn't bet against you. I would not. I think
Andrew Luck is going to be if he's not, if
he's not competing for number two already. But all those
guys playing, then you have Russell Wilson doing it in
his own way. But when you throw thirty eight cutch
sound patches only five interceptions, you're something special. You know
you're something special. Brady at thirty three and nine. You
(15:50):
know Andrew Luck has forty and sixteen. You know, So
when you're thirty eight and five quarterback interception ratio for
the touchdown, you're really playing a game. Well, And but
what about what about the conversations then and you when
you came back into the league and had to deal
with it. And I'm just old enough that that, Okay,
we're pointing all these good quarterbacks and and those numbers
(16:11):
are great, and okay, there are the guys, so okay,
our guys up, So we gotta give them a hundred
and twenty million dollars could could you? Could you have
ever seen the day when that was going to be
the standard top tier contract. No, I didn't know. It's
hard to believe. And you know, if it's it's an
advantage like if you have a Russell Wilson or if
you have a Kurt Warner like I did. It was
not him man on the totem Pole Sary way, so
you could pay other guys to keep them once you
(16:33):
go there. As you know, when you go that kind
of money, you are not gonna be able to cheap
all your prime players. Yeah, particularly in that first year.
But it does help, I think going down the way
because now they can go back to to uh, you know,
Bank Manning or Bank Brady because they can just guarantee
larger parts of the contract now, which is great for
the player because they're getting all that guaranteed money. But
(16:55):
at the end of the day, it comes back and
bite you, like you did with the Dallas Cowboys and
Troy Aikman one of the later stages of his career.
They had guaranteed so much of the contract going forward
that all comes crashing down in one year. It can
it can wipe you out. Yeah, no question. Let's talk
about one of your guys who's up for the Hall
of Fame, because I know this is one of your
favorite subjects. But go ahead, let's get on the soapbox
(17:16):
for Kurt Warner, who should be a first ballot Hall
of Famer. Well, you know, first off, we all know
he's going to go in. Whether he goes in the
first year of LG body or not is up to
the voters. But you know, I have done a study
on the Hall of Fame. I've got a breakdown on
every quarterback that's in it, and including every quarterback that
(17:37):
we've just mentioned that will be in it someday. I've
got your career members playoff numbers. Kurt Warner's numbers are
better than everybody except in fact, his playoff quarterback efficiency
rating is better than everybody already in there. Okay, he's down.
He's slightly under Peyton Manning in percent at ninety Peyton
Mannings at of course he's not in there, you know,
(17:59):
But Steve Young is night that's a amazing you know.
And Terry Bradshaw was seventy point and I excuse me,
uh way up there. But Anyway, his numbers dictate that
he goes in. Whether they'll push him in on the
first year, I don't know. I kind of believe it.
His story is too good to pass up. Oh, absolutely absolutely.
(18:22):
The thing that that to me is the kicker that
that says, Okay, you gotta make it a first ballot
Hall of Famer is the fact that he did it
with two separate teams. I know he didn't win the
super Bowl in Arizona, but to get that team to
the super Bowl and obviously having one with you, we
just don't see with some of these guys have had
to go to other teams, but we've never seen a
quarterback take two separate teams to the super Bowl that
we did Kurt Horner. Yeah, well, let's say this. Let's
(18:45):
say he won the game in Arizona and the defense
then gave well unbelievable series for Pittsburgh doing it all.
You have great credit to Pittsburgh, but really Kurt did
what he had to do to win a game, right right.
With that long the past, to Larry Fitzgerald and just
such underdogs going into it, I'm with you. To me,
he's a first ballot Hall of Famer. I can't imagine it.
(19:06):
The other thing to me, you know, there's certain guys
that do it. The last pass he threw in the
NFC Championship game was a touchdown pass to win it.
The last pass he threw in our Super Bowl was
a touchdown pass to win it. The last pass he
threw in the Arizona Disperate game was a touchdown to
win it. You know, and uh god, you know, not
(19:27):
many guys can do that well. And just and and
of course the Kurt here at the NFL Network, and
I see Kurt every Sunday as they do Game Day
morning and then I do Game Day Live, and his
perspective on the game. He you know, he looks like
he could still play. He look he looks like he
has slimmed down and looking even better. Then that's probably
him on the phone calling right now, trying to tell you, coach,
I can still play. Put me in. Yeah, probably so.
(19:50):
But he looks he looks great, And yeah, I agree
with you. I just think it's kind of a slam dunk.
Let's talk about the matchups because because you are a fan,
just like I am, looking at it right now, out
you can the Packers going and beat Seattle. In Seattle, yeah, sure,
but they don't turn the ball over. They will. Yeah,
that's really the key man. Yeah, they just can't. Yes,
you know, you just can't turn the ball over with
(20:11):
especially on the road. I've got all the numbers on
that stuff. When you turn the ball over on the road,
it's worse than when you turn it over home. And
it's just just the way it is. I think the
team that's plus in turnovers will win it. And if
it's even personally, I think Green Bill beat him. Yeah. Well,
and I like the different compared to some other Green
Bay teams that we've seen, even in their Super Bowl year,
(20:34):
the presidence of Eddie Lacey to have that physical aspect
in the run game that I don't think they've had
in years past. That that's going to be a difference
maker as well. Yeah, you know, in Seattle's got a
great defense, there's no question about it. Every numbers you
look at their very good. But you don't have to
throw the ball at their best corner. Right, But by
the same token you you can't. You can't totally eliminate
(20:55):
him from the game. But you're right, White Temp Providence, Yeah,
you've got you've got to make the murder sour game day.
But you know you wouldn't want to try to base
your game plan on within him over there on that side.
You know, I can't imagine what he's doing a better
job of throwing the ball inside today too, you know, well,
with the rules, with the rules, how do you not
(21:15):
I mean, if you don't get the completion, you know,
the old wood he hates. You know, you can throw
the ball, but two things are bad, you know in
the old days. Well now it's a couple of there's
more good than bad, because yeah, you can get a catch,
you can get in there, you can you can get
a past interference on top of it. The way they're
calling it now, no no question, you know that. To
me as a fan sitting home watching the game, the
most improved position in the leg is the wide receiver position.
(21:39):
There are more players making the impossible catch. In the
old days, you would even throw the ball. I think,
I now they throw it and give him the responsibility
to catch it because he's ever going to catch it
or it's going to be passing a furance. But they
catch so many difficult balls today. It's amazing. Yeah, and
this year more so than any I can't remember. This
was this may go down was the greatest receiving class,
(22:01):
top to bottom with the nut whether it's an Odell
Beckham or Kelvin Benjamin and Mike Adams down in Tampa
Bay and even the Smartavius Bryant it's at Pittsburgh that
went in the fourth round. These are some impressive looking kids. Yeah,
you got to be lucky sometimes. Yeah. I was final
thing on the Seattle I was I'd be shocked if
(22:22):
Pete doesn't. I thought we'd see this more from Dallas,
but with the injury to to Aaron Rodgers, and I'm
surprised we didn't see a whole lot more pressure right
up the middle to try to get him move to
the outside. Normally you don't want him running around because
he's so lethal, but on that leg, I was a
little surprised they didn't do a little more into the
inside to force him to run to the outside and
(22:44):
try to make the same throws on that bad calf.
You know, I felt the same way. But obviously the
defense coaches look at a lot more and more intensely
than we can as fans, and you see him more
than I do. But you know, those obvious that he
was in himself in terms of movement skills, and and
why they didn't do more up inside, I don't know,
(23:05):
but maybe it was affiliated they felt they had with
committing linebackers and that they didn't want to do that.
You know. Well, in the other game with the Colts
of Patriots, you know actually, and the babybody's saying the Patriots,
you can't go to Foxborough. And when we saw Baltimore
almost do it, and I'm like, I'm with you. I
thought Baltimore played better. I thought they were going to
get that game. And I was so impressed with not
(23:26):
just Andrew Luck, but that defense that Greg Monusky has
put together in it with not a lot of you know,
known players, I'm not so sure they're not they can't
go in and really challenge New England and maybe even
beat them in Foxborough. Well, they proved yesterday they can
be scored on. Yeah, and therefore fortune and nothing before
(23:46):
you played for eight. They had a great game plan,
they executed well. Blacklow did a great job. You know,
the staff did a real good job. And to me,
there were two teams that have a great overall pro
football process, from their general managers to their to their coaches,
to their teams. They're always good because they always have
good football players, and they're always going to be competing
(24:08):
in playoff games like this because their overall process is superior. Well,
it shows you the coaching and the process do matter. Right.
Coach always has a no and always will. That's our story.
We're sticking to it. Dick. I can't tell you how
much I appreciate you taking the time. We need to
do that again. I'm gonna see you the Super Bowl.
You've gotta bring me another one of those nice bottle
of wines you produce. Will be there. I'll be there
(24:30):
for a couple of days marketing the wine business. All right,
we'll do it. Thanks so much, Dick. Happy New Year,
alright you too. All right, I hope you enjoyed the
Coaches Show with Dick vermil I'm Brian Billick. Come back
and join us next week. We're gonna have the Coaches
Show all the way up and through the Super Bowl.
Everybody in his Marcus Grand here from NFL dot com
a fantasy Before we get into the coaches show, let's
let's have another little chat. We talk last week, let's
talk again this week. Did you think fantasy football season
was over? I told you last week that it's not.
So don't wait until next year. You can keep playing
fantasy football for real cash this season. Just head over
the fan duel dot com. So I got my man
(00:26):
Chris Prince from Detroit, huge fantasy football guy. He's won
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Podcast Thirty men together, can't lose. This is why you
lift all day. But abody and down we're going. There's
(01:48):
a glean, man, there's a glean. Welcome to a special
edition of the Coaches Show. I'm Brian Billick, and I
can't tell you how thrilled I am to be joined
by the Godfather of coach as we call him, Dick
vermil Dick. Thank you so much for taking the time.
Always great to be with you, Brian. You know that well.
You know. There's so many subjects I want to get into,
(02:08):
but the first one I want to bring up is
and I'm going to write about it this week because
I do it this time every year, and I always
when I was coaching, I would look at the four
teams in the championship games and say, Okay, what does
this say about the league? What is there some direction?
Is there something I can glean from what these four
teams tell us about where we're going as a league,
(02:29):
what you need to do to compete and be successful.
Is there anything that comes to mind when you see
the four teams that are in the playoffs are in
the championship games this week, that that coaches could look
at and say, this is kind of the this is
what you have to do to be in the championship
game in the NFL. Well, you know, it's blaring and
they've about four fine quarterbacks. You know all of what
quarterback efficiency rating is better than all the way up
(02:51):
to one twelve. So as you know, if you don't
have that guy, it is tough to win on defense
alone and just an average player at that position, and
more so today than I think ever before. Yeah, I
think the thing that that in conjunction with that, because
we know it's a quarterback driven league, you know, and
if you don't have one of those guys, you better
be in the process of finding one or developing one.
(03:12):
But the thing that struck me as well as I
look at these teams specifically is the balance, probably more
so than we've had in a few years, where typically
we might have a team that's really strong offensively but
only so so defensively, or even vice versa. But these
teams are all together collectively probably as good as anybody
in the league. When you combine their offensive overall ranking
(03:34):
and their defense. These teams represent all top ten teams
in that regard. Is that balance kind of say something about, yes,
you gotta have a great quarterback, but you know what,
you better make sure you pack a fairly good defense
as well, and no question, and you better have a
very fine personnel department making very few mistakes because now
you don't have the time on the practice fields develop
(03:55):
your own kids. You've got to get them getting ready
to play and play, you know, in the limit on
practice sessions, a limited on pads, a limit on O
t A s and mini cants and all this stuff.
Now it is tough. If you're a losing team, you
can't work harder to catch up. You've got to do
the same things that the teams are already doing to
beat you, so you better have a hell of a
personal personnel department. Steve and I have talked about that
(04:18):
all year long. Have we gone too far with the
collective Bargaining Agreement in terms of the way we're allowed
to prepare our athletes? Now? No question, no question in
my mind, every coach that I know well, that I
feel communicate with, says the same thing, especially the offensive
line coaches. In the quarterback coaches, you know, you can't
keep a quarterback out. Maybe you've got a third quarterback
(04:39):
there's gonna have to play somewhere down the road. Well,
you can't teach him out on the practice field. You
can't send him home with videotape and that stept to
study and then talk to him about it when he's home.
There's you know, in the offensive lineman personally, I think
I see deterioration of fundamental offensive line play. Now when
you see guy gets sacked, it's fundamentally the reason he
(05:00):
gave up a sack, not that he wasn't physically capable
of path protecting. His hand placement was poor as foot
movement was lousy, and you just don't get enough work
with those guys. Yeah, an area that that I've speculated
for a while and watching all the games on Sunday
for Game Day Live that I do. It seems like
we had more special teams, breakdowns, blocked punts, block p
(05:20):
a t s, block field goals, returns of kicks, which
I think also might be a function of that lack
of of practice time, no question, no question, I'd like
to believe. You know, the last three years I have
had the opportunity to coach the nfl PA All Star Game.
I didn't do it this year for other recent so
I'm not out there as of today. I would be there,
(05:41):
but I I banged on Jason Beltzer, Ernie Conwell, on
other people that are trend games, that are involved in
running the players Association. I say, guys, you you shot
yourself in the foot. You're you're you're shortening the career
of the average player. You're really hurting the young quarterback.
We can't develop our own guys, and you're hurting the league.
(06:02):
And you know they started to agree with me. Yeah,
every coach I talked to I kind of hear the
same thing. Of course, we coaches, what would practice forever
if we could, but but I still think we may
have gone to kind of a bridge too far. Will
you bring up an interesting point? Of course, we've got
to talk about Peyton Manning and and not only specifically
but in general, because we've both had to deal with
that older veteran player that was on the cusp of
(06:25):
making that transition out of the game. Is there anybody
that comes to mind that that was that was a
tough transition for you that maybe you had to prod
a player to say, Look, I think I think you
ought to think real long and hard about this before
you before coming back and playing next year. Well, I
go all the way back to my first year with
the Philadelphi Eagles nineteen seventy six. Roman Gabriel had been
(06:47):
traded here. I had coached Roman at the Rams and
seventy one and seventy two. They traded him in seventy
three when Chuck Knox took over. Uh, you know, and
it was time. But he was so tough and loved
that games so much. You know, they don't see it
the same way. They don't see it the way and
you know, and Peyton Manning, I mean, he still had
a wonderful quarterback efficiency ready used your my gosh, when
(07:10):
you look at what he did it one quarterback efficiency. Ready,
you can count on two hands the number of guys
have had that over a few years, you know, So
he can still play. I personally, I thought they limited
him a little bit in the game, uh, but not
letting him go down field more. They didn't challenge anybody
very often downfield. Yeah, and then ones they did the
(07:32):
only the thing that I looked at that and I'm
like everybody you look at it. Remember we we wrote
off Tom Brady in the first three or four weeks
of the season. How silly does that look right now?
And to write off Peyton Manning would be ridiculous. But no, yeah,
no question. The deep ball, the deep balls he did
throw his normal accuracy, and as you and I both know,
the deep balls at a function of timing and touch,
(07:54):
not of a strong arm. And it looked like he
was pushing the ball a little bit, maybe because it
is the quad. Maybe just there's circumstance he's in. But
early on in particular, I don't know if it was
physical or not. Um it'll be a tough time. And
obviously he raised the question afterward as well, because he
kind of raide the specter of I don't know. I
(08:15):
remember when Jonathan Ogden are are someone you're very familiar with,
obviously an All Hall of Fame left tackle in Baltimore.
My last year there, Jonathan, who had to have his
toe injected every game the last season, basically said coach,
the want is there, but it wasn't playing in the season.
To bother them, He says, I don't know if I
can face an off season of rehab. I just don't
(08:35):
know if I can do it again, and that ultimately
led to him retiring. Yeah, well like it. But you know,
Peyton Manny, for example, had more in my numbers, had
more passes for twenty yards or more than anybody else
in the lake. Complete, Okay, And uh so you know
it's still there. And it didn't all of a sudden
just run out at the end of the season, I
(08:56):
don't think, unless he really got tired. But I just
don't doubt it enough. I firstly, because his name is
so big to the league and so important to the
PR League. I think I'd like to see him come
back and play another year. And I believe you will. Yeah,
part of it may very well be they could very
well go through transition. They have a lot of players,
uh that are up possible free agency. The club's going
(09:17):
to half be aggressive. We see this every year. Coach,
you had to deal with it as well. In terms
of the changing profle we're almost to the point where
we're like our college days because there's about attrition rate
in terms of what you can do with the cap
and and the number of players that that might make
a change. I can't imagine that that's not going to
be a factor for him as well in terms of Okay, yeah,
(09:38):
I'll come back and I'll go the rehab and I'll
do all the things that I know how to do it.
But what kind of team are we going to be
going forward? Yeah? Oh, I agree with you. I know
the best team I ever had was the Super Bowl
championship team at the Rams. There were nine players on
that roster that were there when I took over three
years earlier. Nine guys left. So you get a tremendous turnover,
(10:01):
and especially so in a so called rebuilding program. But
you still get that, Like you say that turnover, Yeah,
John Harbor, I thought did a phenomenal job with that
week secondary they had and almost so I just kept
thinking they were going to pull that game out in
New England. But they team they were I think most
people would say that, and they are. They have two
(10:23):
thirds of their roster has turned over since their Super
Bowl two years ago. So that's just the nature of
the league. Right now, Um, let's talk. Listen. If I
can't change gears, I want to talk a little bit
about that game and John Harbon. Obviously the job that
Bill Belichick does. A lot is being said about some
of the things that the New England Patriots did in
terms of personnel and declaring who's eligible. None of it
(10:46):
was illegal. It was all within the rules. That's that's
just being a good coach, isn't it going right? Yeah,
and you used to pull some of those things. I
learned it all from you, now from me. But yes,
they are the un They're good for the game. Yeah,
it challenges you, and yeah, and you know being creative
that that is all part of it. There's no question
(11:07):
about that, Brian. I read in the paper this morning
that they've been working on that play for six or
seven weeks. It's just never running on the game. Yeah.
And if flabbergasted me that Julian Edelman, who was a
college quarterback at Kent State, had never thrown that play.
Throwing a touchdown past four in this league, you to
think that it pulled out at sometimes, So like you said,
that's just uh, that's keeping one in your back pocket
(11:29):
and and pulling it out a good time. Let's I
want to move on to um the Dez Bryant catch
no catch. I did the Calvin Johnson game against Chicago.
That kind of began and we couldn't we know it
as the Calvin Johnson rule. Now, the the possession through
the process. You're seeing it with kind of unfiltered eyes
(11:50):
on the outside. What do you make of the legalities
and the and the minutia we've now brought into determining
what's a catch and what's not a catch? Well, I
remember your game, Okay, I thought it was a catch.
Yesterday I saw it and I thought it was a catch.
But by the rule it was not a KTCH as
interpreted today. That's all hers do it. It's very defined.
As you know the rules better than I do. It's defined,
(12:12):
and I did you know, I don't know who's right
and who's wrong. If you do it the other way,
they're still gonna have instant replay and decisions to make,
and humans have to make those decisions. But by the
rule they called it correct, absolutely right. I remembered after
that game, as I was going back to the airport,
I called my my then ninety year old mother, who
you know, loves the game and listens to whatever game
(12:34):
I'm doing, and I was trying She was asking me, well,
how come that wasn't a touchdown? And only in the
wisdom of a ninety year old I was trying to
explain to her why it wasn't and her response was classic.
It was, oh, my, that just doesn't make sense, because
if it looks like what do they say, if it
looks like a duck, if it walks like a duck,
if it quacks like a duck, then it's a duck.
But but when you talk to the officials, and I
(12:56):
know when this was put through with the league, it
was trying to remove any ambiguity from one one crew
to the next in terms of judgmental So they thought
that this continuation of the process would would define it
more specifically, and in that regard it probably has because
as you look at the two clearly not maintaining possession
(13:16):
through the process that that at least made it a
clear line that it was crossed to say it wasn't
a catch, no question. You know. The other thing is
that play and a few others that took place during
the year will be you know what, the owners meetings,
they'll be up for great discussions and they'll rehash it.
Chances are they won't change it, but it will be
the rule will be better embedded in everybody's minds going
(13:38):
in the next year. Yeah. Another thing I think they're
going to discuss is, I'm interested in your opinion on it.
The defensive holding and past interference quadrupled from last year.
Have we gone too far with the interpretation of that,
I think so. Well. First off, it's a game of
extreme movement, and it's it's starting to take away from
(14:00):
the game as a fan. I'm a fan. Carol's sitting
over there on the other chair work fans, and it's
there's so many penalties now they'll probably come out with
a number. There aren't any more penalties this year than
the other before, but it sure seems like it. Yeah,
so if that did, if they do that, then someone's
cooking the books because I'm not buying that at all,
and and what what bothers me is also in watching
(14:22):
the game as a fan and now commenting on it,
it seems like the receivers come up after every single
play looking for the flag. They're looking around like, well,
the guy touched me, so where's the flag? On every
single incomplete pass, it's like, well, where's the flag? I
know it? And sometimes he gets it called when it
wasn't going to be called, I think. But you know,
(14:43):
it's just when people move full speed, there's found to
be some bumping around role when it's not flagrant or
intentionally grabbing or pulling the guy. I I don't know.
I I have a hard time with it. I really do,
because now I watched television. I don't of its past
interference or not. And from one game to the next,
I know they try to standardize it. But well, before
(15:05):
we move off that game, let's talk a little bit
about the game that Aaron Rodgers had. I mean, when
I talked to coaches around the league, and I'm one
of them that believe the same way we've I can't
remember as being as deep and good quarterback play ever
in the league. We're talking about four or five guaranteed
Hall of Famers currently playing a couple of guys on
the ride of this. Andrew Luck is unbelievable. But at
the end of the day, most people, I think think
(15:28):
Aaron Rodgers is still the best quarterback in the game today.
I wouldn't bet against you. I would not. I think
Andrew Luck is going to be if he's not, if
he's not competing for number two already. But all those
guys playing, then you have Russell Wilson doing it in
his own way. But when you throw thirty eight cutch
sound patches only five interceptions, you're something special. You know
you're something special. Brady at thirty three and nine. You
(15:50):
know Andrew Luck has forty and sixteen. You know, So
when you're thirty eight and five quarterback interception ratio for
the touchdown, you're really playing a game. Well, And but
what about what about the conversations then and you when
you came back into the league and had to deal
with it. And I'm just old enough that that, Okay,
we're pointing all these good quarterbacks and and those numbers
(16:11):
are great, and okay, there are the guys, so okay,
our guys up, So we gotta give them a hundred
and twenty million dollars could could you? Could you have
ever seen the day when that was going to be
the standard top tier contract. No, I didn't know. It's
hard to believe. And you know, if it's it's an
advantage like if you have a Russell Wilson or if
you have a Kurt Warner like I did. It was
not him man on the totem Pole Sary way, so
you could pay other guys to keep them once you
(16:33):
go there. As you know, when you go that kind
of money, you are not gonna be able to cheap
all your prime players. Yeah, particularly in that first year.
But it does help, I think going down the way
because now they can go back to to uh, you know,
Bank Manning or Bank Brady because they can just guarantee
larger parts of the contract now, which is great for
the player because they're getting all that guaranteed money. But
(16:55):
at the end of the day, it comes back and
bite you, like you did with the Dallas Cowboys and
Troy Aikman one of the later stages of his career.
They had guaranteed so much of the contract going forward
that all comes crashing down in one year. It can
it can wipe you out. Yeah, no question. Let's talk
about one of your guys who's up for the Hall
of Fame, because I know this is one of your
favorite subjects. But go ahead, let's get on the soapbox
(17:16):
for Kurt Warner, who should be a first ballot Hall
of Famer. Well, you know, first off, we all know
he's going to go in. Whether he goes in the
first year of LG body or not is up to
the voters. But you know, I have done a study
on the Hall of Fame. I've got a breakdown on
every quarterback that's in it, and including every quarterback that
(17:37):
we've just mentioned that will be in it someday. I've
got your career members playoff numbers. Kurt Warner's numbers are
better than everybody except in fact, his playoff quarterback efficiency
rating is better than everybody already in there. Okay, he's down.
He's slightly under Peyton Manning in percent at ninety Peyton
Mannings at of course he's not in there, you know,
(17:59):
But Steve Young is night that's a amazing you know.
And Terry Bradshaw was seventy point and I excuse me,
uh way up there. But Anyway, his numbers dictate that
he goes in. Whether they'll push him in on the
first year, I don't know. I kind of believe it.
His story is too good to pass up. Oh, absolutely absolutely.
(18:22):
The thing that that to me is the kicker that
that says, Okay, you gotta make it a first ballot
Hall of Famer is the fact that he did it
with two separate teams. I know he didn't win the
super Bowl in Arizona, but to get that team to
the super Bowl and obviously having one with you, we
just don't see with some of these guys have had
to go to other teams, but we've never seen a
quarterback take two separate teams to the super Bowl that
we did Kurt Horner. Yeah, well, let's say this. Let's
(18:45):
say he won the game in Arizona and the defense
then gave well unbelievable series for Pittsburgh doing it all.
You have great credit to Pittsburgh, but really Kurt did
what he had to do to win a game, right right.
With that long the past, to Larry Fitzgerald and just
such underdogs going into it, I'm with you. To me,
he's a first ballot Hall of Famer. I can't imagine it.
(19:06):
The other thing to me, you know, there's certain guys
that do it. The last pass he threw in the
NFC Championship game was a touchdown pass to win it.
The last pass he threw in our Super Bowl was
a touchdown pass to win it. The last pass he
threw in the Arizona Disperate game was a touchdown to
win it. You know, and uh god, you know, not
(19:27):
many guys can do that well. And just and and
of course the Kurt here at the NFL Network, and
I see Kurt every Sunday as they do Game Day
morning and then I do Game Day Live, and his
perspective on the game. He you know, he looks like
he could still play. He look he looks like he
has slimmed down and looking even better. Then that's probably
him on the phone calling right now, trying to tell you, coach,
I can still play. Put me in. Yeah, probably so.
(19:50):
But he looks he looks great, And yeah, I agree
with you. I just think it's kind of a slam dunk.
Let's talk about the matchups because because you are a fan,
just like I am, looking at it right now, out
you can the Packers going and beat Seattle. In Seattle, yeah, sure,
but they don't turn the ball over. They will. Yeah,
that's really the key man. Yeah, they just can't. Yes,
you know, you just can't turn the ball over with
(20:11):
especially on the road. I've got all the numbers on
that stuff. When you turn the ball over on the road,
it's worse than when you turn it over home. And
it's just just the way it is. I think the
team that's plus in turnovers will win it. And if
it's even personally, I think Green Bill beat him. Yeah. Well,
and I like the different compared to some other Green
Bay teams that we've seen, even in their Super Bowl year,
(20:34):
the presidence of Eddie Lacey to have that physical aspect
in the run game that I don't think they've had
in years past. That that's going to be a difference
maker as well. Yeah, you know, in Seattle's got a
great defense, there's no question about it. Every numbers you
look at their very good. But you don't have to
throw the ball at their best corner. Right, But by
the same token you you can't. You can't totally eliminate
(20:55):
him from the game. But you're right, White Temp Providence, Yeah,
you've got you've got to make the murder sour game day.
But you know you wouldn't want to try to base
your game plan on within him over there on that side.
You know, I can't imagine what he's doing a better
job of throwing the ball inside today too, you know, well,
with the rules, with the rules, how do you not
(21:15):
I mean, if you don't get the completion, you know,
the old wood he hates. You know, you can throw
the ball, but two things are bad, you know in
the old days. Well now it's a couple of there's
more good than bad, because yeah, you can get a catch,
you can get in there, you can you can get
a past interference on top of it. The way they're
calling it now, no no question, you know that. To
me as a fan sitting home watching the game, the
most improved position in the leg is the wide receiver position.
(21:39):
There are more players making the impossible catch. In the
old days, you would even throw the ball. I think,
I now they throw it and give him the responsibility
to catch it because he's ever going to catch it
or it's going to be passing a furance. But they
catch so many difficult balls today. It's amazing. Yeah, and
this year more so than any I can't remember. This
was this may go down was the greatest receiving class,
(22:01):
top to bottom with the nut whether it's an Odell
Beckham or Kelvin Benjamin and Mike Adams down in Tampa
Bay and even the Smartavius Bryant it's at Pittsburgh that
went in the fourth round. These are some impressive looking kids. Yeah,
you got to be lucky sometimes. Yeah. I was final
thing on the Seattle I was I'd be shocked if
(22:22):
Pete doesn't. I thought we'd see this more from Dallas,
but with the injury to to Aaron Rodgers, and I'm
surprised we didn't see a whole lot more pressure right
up the middle to try to get him move to
the outside. Normally you don't want him running around because
he's so lethal, but on that leg, I was a
little surprised they didn't do a little more into the
inside to force him to run to the outside and
(22:44):
try to make the same throws on that bad calf.
You know, I felt the same way. But obviously the
defense coaches look at a lot more and more intensely
than we can as fans, and you see him more
than I do. But you know, those obvious that he
was in himself in terms of movement skills, and and
why they didn't do more up inside, I don't know,
(23:05):
but maybe it was affiliated they felt they had with
committing linebackers and that they didn't want to do that.
You know. Well, in the other game with the Colts
of Patriots, you know actually, and the babybody's saying the Patriots,
you can't go to Foxborough. And when we saw Baltimore
almost do it, and I'm like, I'm with you. I
thought Baltimore played better. I thought they were going to
get that game. And I was so impressed with not
(23:26):
just Andrew Luck, but that defense that Greg Monusky has
put together in it with not a lot of you know,
known players, I'm not so sure they're not they can't
go in and really challenge New England and maybe even
beat them in Foxborough. Well, they proved yesterday they can
be scored on. Yeah, and therefore fortune and nothing before
(23:46):
you played for eight. They had a great game plan,
they executed well. Blacklow did a great job. You know,
the staff did a real good job. And to me,
there were two teams that have a great overall pro
football process, from their general managers to their to their coaches,
to their teams. They're always good because they always have
good football players, and they're always going to be competing
(24:08):
in playoff games like this because their overall process is superior. Well,
it shows you the coaching and the process do matter. Right.
Coach always has a no and always will. That's our story.
We're sticking to it. Dick. I can't tell you how
much I appreciate you taking the time. We need to
do that again. I'm gonna see you the Super Bowl.
You've gotta bring me another one of those nice bottle
of wines you produce. Will be there. I'll be there
(24:30):
for a couple of days marketing the wine business. All right,
we'll do it. Thanks so much, Dick. Happy New Year,
alright you too. All right, I hope you enjoyed the
Coaches Show with Dick vermil I'm Brian Billick. Come back
and join us next week. We're gonna have the Coaches
Show all the way up and through the Super Bowl.
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