January 5, 2023 • 24 mins
Host Caroline Hendershot is joined by Jets Director of Mental Performance, Dr. Anne Shadle. The two discuss Dr. Shadle’s background and accolades and how they led to her current role (0:04). Dr. Shadle also gives insight on the mental challenges of going through the Olympic trials and how she identifies the challenges now (4:52). Caroline and Dr. Shadle also talk about retiring from sports and the changes that athletes experience in those transitions (9:13). Dr. Shadle also shares how she got into researching mental health and her time at the Olympic training center with Paralympic athletes as well as her time working and studying with the US Air Force (14:12). Dr. Shadle also walks through her day-to-day work with the Jets and the adjustment of working with the NFL schedule (16:01). Dr. Shadle explains the struggles players may experience in transitioning to the NFL as well as the complexity of dealing with injuries (21:24). Lastly, Dr. Shadle highlights her favorite parts of working with the Jets and how much her work with the team means to her (23:07).
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to New York Her. I'm your host, Caroline Hendershot,
and today we have another great guest joining us, dr
Annie Schadal. She is the director of Mental Performance here
at the New York Jets. Dr Annie, thanks so much
for joining me, for having me, I'm excited. Okay, So
I just want to start with your background, because as
I was researching you, You've got to be one of
the coolest people that I have ever researched. Your two
(00:26):
time national champ in two different events outdoor and indoor
at the University of Nebraska, and an Olympic Trials semifinalist.
So tell me a little bit about your background and
how you got into the profession that you're in now. Yeah, okay, great. Yeah.
I mean I think I've always just really loved sports
from a young age and then loved basketball, but discovered
(00:48):
that I was a good runner and fell in love
with running. I know some people take it as like
a punishment, right, so like in football running as a
punishment for me, I'm like, I love running, It's so great,
and our players think time crazy because I like to run,
but you know whatever. Um, yeah, So I think I
just really fell in love with sport and running at
a young age, and through that UM loved just how
(01:12):
do you train the body? Right? So my undergrad was
actually science how do you train the body? And then
as I was continuing my athletic journey, really started to
discover the importance of the mind and just how important
that is and the impact that it has on your performance.
And so then shortly after my professional career, went back
to grad school to study sport and performance psychology. So
(01:34):
was that your first real moment where you were like,
I want to go into this as a profession. Like
what sparked that in you? Yeah? I think when I
was an athlete, I didn't really connect the dots that
this was a profession. And then had met a couple
people that we're sports psychologist and I was like, oh,
that's really cool. Went to a camp when I was
(01:56):
in high school, but again still didn't connect the dots,
and there was a sports like cologists of female sports
psychologists that spoke to us and she taught us about affirmations,
which I thought were really cool. I still have affirmations,
But that was kind of my first experience with a
sports psychologist in terms of how do you teach some
of these mental skills that we're working on are the
importance of putting good things in our brains. Um, having
(02:18):
some strategies to go to when we're struggling. Right. So um,
that again not connecting the deaths, but when I reflect back,
I've always been drawn to that psychology side and really
trying to understand how the best of the best do
what they do. I know you researched Olympians and kind
of the emotional challenges that they go to go through
(02:39):
and the preparation that they go through. What some of
the takeaways that you learned from that research. Yeah, I
think that people's stories and their narratives, right, and their
their perspectives on their life is really fascinating. So the
reason why I chose that was I wanted to hear
from the athletes from their perspective these moments, right, So
(02:59):
what are critical challenges? What things do you face? How
do you navigate that? And the Olympic Games is such
an interesting experience just getting there is quite a quest, right.
So the Olympics happen once every four years. Being able
to make the team have everything fall into place, like
on Olympic year, you get one shot, um to then
(03:22):
being able to win an Olympic medal. Usually Olympic Games
are internationals. There's so many different elements of the Olympic
Games that are unique that really I think show us
those like top performers and how they get it done.
So really my findings were in those moments, right, So
kind of my findings were the Olympic moment is what
(03:44):
I titled it. But in those moments, how do you
take control of that, right, how do you um harness
that courage within yourself? How do you make the decisions
you need to make, how do you put your mind
where it needs to be to perform in those moments?
And so really here ring the stories from the athletes
in terms of how they did that and then also
their own determination. Right, So through these narratives, through these stories,
(04:07):
it was very clear that these athletes had a very
clear direction, clear, very clear sense of purpose. But then
also just a very strong sense of self in their
pursuits and their belief in self and their desires to
move towards those goals. I think that's the Olympics, of course,
are just so special. Every year I feel like everyone
(04:28):
gets drawn to the TV to watch them. But that's
got to be the most fascinating part to research because
being able to really deep dive into each personal story
and figure out what these people are good at and
how they got to that point, because, like you said,
getting to that Olympic, just making the Olympics is so
(04:49):
hard to do, so that must have been really interesting. Okay,
So while you were training for the Olympic trials, did
you ever have any opts goals that you had to
mentally overcome and how did you get through those? Like
what techniques did you use and did you even realize
that what you were doing then was what you're now
(05:11):
kind of teaching and implementing. Yeah, I think that are
there like mental barriers or are there things psychologically that
we go through that don't help us? Help us absolutely? Right? Um?
And I think part of my own obstacles were those
perfectionist tendencies. Right, nothing in this and I teach this now.
(05:31):
So it's kind of full circle. Right. You have your
own experiences and you're like, I get this, I understand
why you're feeling this way. Um, but like those perfectionist tendencies. Right, So,
even as a very driven, high achieving person, you have
these things that like nothing's ever good enough, right, and
you're comparing, you know, you're finding those like nitpicky things
that like today wasn't good enough, that wasn't fast enough, Um,
(05:54):
that race wasn't perfectly executed right, So you just kind
of beat yourself down. Which then, right with perfectional tendencies,
you kind of wear yourself out and you burn yourself
out just because you're so incredibly hard on yourself. There's
no sense of self compassion, there's no sense of finding
those things that you're doing well right, and it wears
you down. Um. So if I think about myself in
(06:15):
those moments and the pressure that I put on myself
and even shifting to like motivation, Um, when I was
training for to make the Olympic team, like again, those
perfectial tendencies came through. But then also just my the
expectation of pleasing others changed and when I was at
my best, it was like for my pursuit. Right. I
(06:36):
loved running, I wanted to do well. I love training
with my teammates, I loved racing people. Right, and so
now when I was racing professionally, now it changed to
making money. Now, it changed to sponsors. Now, it changed
to others expectations, right, and so those two things, right,
they fuel you differently, right, and so identify with like
(06:59):
a lot of the things are players go through in
terms of where that focus is, right and where that
motivation is or those external pressures that we put on ourselves, right,
and so helping to shift back to those things that
are core of like why do we do this? Why
do what motivates us? Why do we love the sport?
And being able to stay connected to those things are
(07:20):
really important just for sustainability in your own sense of
well being and happiness in the sport. Right. Okay, So
before we get into your journey to the jets, I
want to touch on what you just said, that balance
of doing something for just the love of it, but
then also doing your sport or whatever you're doing for
the monetary aspect and to kind of put food on
(07:41):
the table. What is that proper balance because I think
a lot of times, like you said, they motivate you
in different ways. So it's good to have a little
bit of both, but when maybe one gets too powerful,
it kind of throws the balance off, right, Yep. So
I would say in terms of motivation, it is a
little personal, right, So each individual person has their things
(08:05):
that motivate them, right, and being able to identify what
motivates me right now is really important, um. To even
have that sense of reflection of what's going on with
me in my life, what's helping me through this, what's
helping me through this season, this week, this day, whatever
it is is important. UM. I will say from my
(08:25):
studies and then my work, those that well, they're a
little psychology intrinsic motivation, right, So that desire two master
the skill set to be the best we can be. Right,
All those things that help us feel joy, a sense
of accomplishment, right, all those things matter in terms of
our motivation. Um, and I think the best of the
(08:47):
best have that pure love of the sport or even
if we want to say professionally, like you have a
passion for your work, And that's really really important. The
different things motivationally, right, we can take a deeper dive
into that. Right. So those things things that anchor us
or that helps support us. Right, So our family, our friends,
(09:08):
taking care of the people we love, right, all those
things also helped to just strengthen that motivation as well.
So you finish your career with running you retire from
your professional career. This is a twofold question. Hey, was
that hard to transition from like a top performing athlete
to then going into a general workforce in the working field,
(09:31):
and then to what was then your journey to then
get to the jets? Oh yeah, I mean it was perfect? Yeah, right?
When we think this, right, we just think like you know,
and even if I think back to myself, like, um
and my journey, right when you're going through it, it
might look like it's like perfect, and it's just not right.
(09:51):
So I didn't make the Olympic team. I was completely
devastated and heartbroken. I was completely lost. Right that your
sense of identity, your sense of s health is just
really takes a hit, right, and so you're you're left
putting yourself back together, right, And I think that that's
true for a lot of people that go through different
(10:12):
transitions in life, right, Um, either transitions that you anticipate, right,
Like I'm going to anticipate, okay, after this season, I'm
going to retire. I'm going to anticipate whatever or unanticipated, right,
And Um, when I did not make the Olympic team,
I was pretty much in denial, right because I in
my mind, I was like, I'm gonna run till I'm whatever,
(10:35):
till I'm untill I can't right. Um, But that wasn't
it right? And so again, in that moment, you're kind
of left with, Okay, how do I how do I
piece myself back together? Right? And it's a lot of
like deep soul searching, it's a lot of like leaning
on your support system. I was not an easy person
to be around at that time, right, because you're you're struggling,
(10:57):
and and I think that we like to shy away
from those things, right because no one likes to struggle,
no one likes to hurt, no one likes their identity
to take a huge hit. Um. And it takes time
to figure those things out, right. And so I actually
went moved back to Nebraska and was volunteer coaching at
the University of Nebraska, and that really helped me. Um.
(11:19):
I say, I had to wean myself off running, right
because in my mind, I was like, I want to
still continue to run, I want to still continue to train,
but I also was like completely burn out, like needed
time away, hated running, but wanted nothing more than to run.
It's a weird juxtaposition, really really weird space. But then
each day, you know, you try to find that sense
(11:39):
of purpose. And I would say, like it took me,
It took me a year to like find what I
was going to do next, and even then it was
still really difficult, right. It was really hard for me
to watch races, It was really hard for me to
go to track meets, right, um, and again it just
takes time. But I think through that, I then I
went back to grad school, So I think, like going
(12:01):
back to graduate school, I had a lot of things
to work on, right, So part of me feels like
I like cheated my master's program and PhD program because
I was always working on myself, right, like working through
my identity, what happened in my sport experience, my own
psychology in terms of where did I mess up or
not mess up? Well, we'll use different words. Where where
(12:22):
could I have benefited from sports psychology or performance psychology
that would have helped me? Right? And then I think
through that, you'r you find new passions and your passion
to change. And then all those experiences that were once
really really painful I believe actually have helped me become
much better at my job just because I am empathetic
and I do understand from like a lived experience way, right,
(12:45):
you have that background and you're able to kind of
empathize like you were saying, I mean even from me,
like a collegiate athlete who was not Olympic bound by
any means, and you anticipate that like retirement, that end
of your sport. I remember working out was really difficult
for me because I was used to working out for
(13:06):
like six hours a day and burning thousands and thousands
of calories and getting like so much more endorphins because
of my workout. And then I went from a desk job,
like it was just such a drastic drop. Yes, yes,
and it is. And I would say, like I had
to do a lot of work on myself psychology wise,
of like Annie, a thirty minute workout is great, right, right,
(13:29):
Like it's okay to just go for a three mile run,
That's okay, right, Where normally like three miles was my
morning run and then I'd have an afternoon it was
like eight, ten miles whatever. Right, So it was like, yeah,
just those transitions again with your identity and what's healthy
and what's normal, and it's it's tough, right, because we
have these habits, right, and we work really hard on
(13:50):
forming these habits as an athlete, or forming these habits
to help us be successful. And then it's like, wait this,
I got to kind of redo some of these things,
right or I need to um evolve or change some
of these habits that I once had. So now it's
helpful for me in my professional career versus like my
athletic career. Right, the transition has got to be just
one of the hardest things for anyone going through any
(14:12):
type of transition. But so you graduate and then where
do you go to further your professional career? Yeah? So
after grad school, UM, I really wanted to in my mind,
I wanted to be somewhere where I was doing teaching,
doing some research and working with athletes. And so that
took me to San Diego, where I was doing some teaching,
(14:35):
doing some work at the Olympic Training Center. I worked
with the Paralympic athletes, which was really cool. I was
a guide runner for a visually impaired athlete, which was
like super cool. I don't talk about it that much,
but the Olympic Training Center in Chula Vista is a really,
really cool place because you have um pair of athletes
that are working working right alongside and training every day
UM with able body athletes and it's just such a
(14:57):
cool place. UM and and yeah, so in that I
was just continuing to learn, doing some coaching education and
really just getting my feet wet in terms of that
post PhD. And then from there took a job with
the United States Air Force, which was for me, it
was tools that I needed in my professional UM pockets
(15:19):
I guess we'll say, or professional toolbox whatever UM to
really understand the you can't say selection assessment, but basically
to understand how does the military UM identify and helps
support high performers, right so they're special warfare, their general officers,
(15:41):
things like that, and then how do we do research
education consultation with those entities. And that was really cool
experience just to learn, um how the Air Force does
a lot of that work, which then has ultimately helped
me in draft work, draft selection things like that, which
I just really really love all that work. Yeah. So
(16:03):
were you on any sports teams as like a director
of mental performance or a psychologist before you came to
the Jets. Yeah, so I worked with USA Truck and
Field for a while UM and was one of their
sports site consultants and then also worked with the Oklahoma
City Thunder and that was a really really cool experience
(16:23):
UM to be with that organization, UM as one of
their performance sykes. So you had all the all the
backgrounds to help you prepare for this job. But what
is your day to day with Jets players or coaching
staff so or what really goes into your job? Yeah,
so kind of taking that military model. So in the
military they in bed psychologists within their organizations right or
(16:46):
within their UM different units. And so I'm embedded here
with the Jets, So that means like I'm I'm in
it right. So in the mornings guys come through, UM,
I'm there. I'm there for training um as guys have
their breaks between their meetings, UM, so I'm in it right,
travel with the team, UM work with the coaches. So
(17:08):
kind of wherever they are, I am and that provides
opportunities to have these interactions. UM do some do some
consults and then just be be where I need to
be as as things are needed. What do you think
is the most challenging part maybe or what surprised you
most about working for an NFL team. That's a really
(17:29):
good question. Oh gosh, um, Yeah, what surprised me the
most or what's like the hardest part because it's very different,
I'm sure different basketball or the air Force, which you
also work for, So it's what is that Maybe it's
the structure of it that's different, or the long, grueling
(17:53):
kind of schedule of eighteen weeks where you're really locked in.
What do you think was maybe most took you by
most surprised? Oh, I don't know if I can answer that.
What took me by most surprised? I think probably the
cadence took took a little bit for me to get
used to write just the length of how things the
(18:13):
length of the season, but then kind of those just
the ride of the season, right, the highs, the lows
in betweens, um, all of that was took definitely a
little bit of time to kind of get used to.
There's also so many players on a Celtic, So how
do you how do you kind of like, how do
(18:34):
you take a different approach for each player? Because I'm
sure obviously everything's individualized, but is how does that process happen? Yeah?
So a good point, but Okay, the hardest part for
me was learning everyone's name. And it wasn't like learning
their name. It was like learning like what their nickname
is or what people call them, right, And it's very
(18:55):
different for each person. Um, So for all the players,
all the staff, that definitely I took a long time
that I have them on now so so we're good.
But that took literally all season last year to like
really learn um and build those just relationships with those
guys so that they could trust me. They knew that
in their corner, I'm here to support them, try to
check my ego and really just try to be an
(19:17):
unbiased space for them to help them, right, that's my job. Um,
And I would say that, um, how do I can
how do I you ask? How do I the different
personalities that that are there? And that's actually my favorite
part of my job, right because, Um, I think people
are really fascinating. I've said this before, but I just
(19:38):
like love people. Like I think people are super fascinating
in terms of how they how they think about things,
their own journeys, Like there are guys have incredible stories
and incredible journeys and that's just really cool to hear.
So I think if everyone was the same, then I
might be bored. But since there's such a variety and
personality and person is so different, like, I just I
(20:02):
love that. So it's cool to be able to UM,
And I think it helps me and my skill set
to be able to like adjust as needed. Right, And
this is why I'm a trained professional, because I have
a different skill set to be able to meet the
needs of the individual person. Right. Do you feel as
though you've ever gotten any pushback from a player or
even a coach or just anyone that you've worked with
(20:25):
that hasn't thought that mental aspect is as important and
you've had to kind of break that barrier down and
earn their trust in that way. Yeah, I think that
everyone understands the importance of the mental side and building
those mindsets. Um. But this is the first time that
the Jets have had a director of mental performance and
someone that is specialized embedded with the team. Um. This
(20:49):
this role didn't exist before me, and so I think
as a whole, we're adjusting to in sports and general
sports psychology, performance psychology, mental performance is gaining traction, and
so I think that's what it's more about, is like
here's a new role that maybe we're not really sure exactly.
(21:09):
So that's kind of more I think the pushback or
some of the barriers that that I faces, like, Okay, well,
how do we utilize her? What should I use her for?
What does she actually do? Right? And so that's my
job to educate on here are the ways that I
can support you, or here are the things that I
can help teach you. What are some of the biggest
obstacles that our guys face that you have to kind
(21:32):
of help them through, and what are those techniques that
you use with them? Yeah, so again, each person is different, right, So, um,
probably the easiest thing to go to is just transition
into the league. Right, So if you think about being drafted,
being undrafted and just that transition wherever you're coming from
to the league and to the Jets is a really
(21:53):
really big thing. So just that on board and getting
used to this environment, transitioning to new to to two
new teammates, to new coaches, and just understanding what it
takes to be successful at this level, right, that's like
a really really big one. UM, help the guys win
with injuries, right, and injuries are just a nasty part
of the game, and um, are really really challenging and difficult. Right.
(22:18):
I don't know if you were ever injured as an athlete,
but like injuries are just devastating, right, they take a
hit on your identity, um, and those things are really
challenging too. So those are other things. And then just
everything psychology wise in terms of teaching mental skills, right,
helping them understand their own psychology, helping them invest in
their own mental game um and whatever that is. Right, So,
(22:39):
whether it's like managing performance anxiety, dealing with pressure, dealing
with outside distractions, helping with their attention and focus right,
so focuses the foundational mental skill of like what are
we focused on? Our attention you know gets distracted like
half the time, our minds wander, So how do we
stay focused on the information? And even just like the
season is so long, right, so how do I, um
(23:02):
help support myself through the entire season so that I
have the emotional stamina the physical stamina to endure the season.
Last one for you, what do you think is your
favorite part of the job or maybe your favorite memory
from this season that you're just really proud of or
you can't believe happened? What do you think that is
for you. Oh I. My favorite part of my job
(23:24):
is our players, Like they make me laugh every day.
They're awesome guys. Um. It's my favorite part is seeing
them happy and seeing them surpass their own expectations or
surprised themselves. UM. And that that's my favorite part of
my job, is like seeing those guys excited and happy
and um, knowing how hard they work and their dedication
(23:45):
to the game. UM. And when those things come to fruition,
right when you see those things happen, it just like
brings me a lot of joy. Awesome. Thanks so much
for your time and it was so great to really
understand and do a deep dive of what you do
every day you're going to the life. Thank you, M
M M
Welcome to New York Her. I'm your host, Caroline Hendershot,
and today we have another great guest joining us, dr
Annie Schadal. She is the director of Mental Performance here
at the New York Jets. Dr Annie, thanks so much
for joining me, for having me, I'm excited. Okay, So
I just want to start with your background, because as
I was researching you, You've got to be one of
the coolest people that I have ever researched. Your two
(00:26):
time national champ in two different events outdoor and indoor
at the University of Nebraska, and an Olympic Trials semifinalist.
So tell me a little bit about your background and
how you got into the profession that you're in now. Yeah, okay, great. Yeah.
I mean I think I've always just really loved sports
from a young age and then loved basketball, but discovered
(00:48):
that I was a good runner and fell in love
with running. I know some people take it as like
a punishment, right, so like in football running as a
punishment for me, I'm like, I love running, It's so great,
and our players think time crazy because I like to run,
but you know whatever. Um, yeah, So I think I
just really fell in love with sport and running at
a young age, and through that UM loved just how
(01:12):
do you train the body? Right? So my undergrad was
actually science how do you train the body? And then
as I was continuing my athletic journey, really started to
discover the importance of the mind and just how important
that is and the impact that it has on your performance.
And so then shortly after my professional career, went back
to grad school to study sport and performance psychology. So
(01:34):
was that your first real moment where you were like,
I want to go into this as a profession. Like
what sparked that in you? Yeah? I think when I
was an athlete, I didn't really connect the dots that
this was a profession. And then had met a couple
people that we're sports psychologist and I was like, oh,
that's really cool. Went to a camp when I was
(01:56):
in high school, but again still didn't connect the dots,
and there was a sports like cologists of female sports
psychologists that spoke to us and she taught us about affirmations,
which I thought were really cool. I still have affirmations,
But that was kind of my first experience with a
sports psychologist in terms of how do you teach some
of these mental skills that we're working on are the
importance of putting good things in our brains. Um, having
(02:18):
some strategies to go to when we're struggling. Right. So um,
that again not connecting the deaths, but when I reflect back,
I've always been drawn to that psychology side and really
trying to understand how the best of the best do
what they do. I know you researched Olympians and kind
of the emotional challenges that they go to go through
(02:39):
and the preparation that they go through. What some of
the takeaways that you learned from that research. Yeah, I
think that people's stories and their narratives, right, and their
their perspectives on their life is really fascinating. So the
reason why I chose that was I wanted to hear
from the athletes from their perspective these moments, right, So
(02:59):
what are critical challenges? What things do you face? How
do you navigate that? And the Olympic Games is such
an interesting experience just getting there is quite a quest, right.
So the Olympics happen once every four years. Being able
to make the team have everything fall into place, like
on Olympic year, you get one shot, um to then
(03:22):
being able to win an Olympic medal. Usually Olympic Games
are internationals. There's so many different elements of the Olympic
Games that are unique that really I think show us
those like top performers and how they get it done.
So really my findings were in those moments, right, So
kind of my findings were the Olympic moment is what
(03:44):
I titled it. But in those moments, how do you
take control of that, right, how do you um harness
that courage within yourself? How do you make the decisions
you need to make, how do you put your mind
where it needs to be to perform in those moments?
And so really here ring the stories from the athletes
in terms of how they did that and then also
their own determination. Right, So through these narratives, through these stories,
(04:07):
it was very clear that these athletes had a very
clear direction, clear, very clear sense of purpose. But then
also just a very strong sense of self in their
pursuits and their belief in self and their desires to
move towards those goals. I think that's the Olympics, of course,
are just so special. Every year I feel like everyone
(04:28):
gets drawn to the TV to watch them. But that's
got to be the most fascinating part to research because
being able to really deep dive into each personal story
and figure out what these people are good at and
how they got to that point, because, like you said,
getting to that Olympic, just making the Olympics is so
(04:49):
hard to do, so that must have been really interesting. Okay,
So while you were training for the Olympic trials, did
you ever have any opts goals that you had to
mentally overcome and how did you get through those? Like
what techniques did you use and did you even realize
that what you were doing then was what you're now
(05:11):
kind of teaching and implementing. Yeah, I think that are
there like mental barriers or are there things psychologically that
we go through that don't help us? Help us absolutely? Right? Um?
And I think part of my own obstacles were those
perfectionist tendencies. Right, nothing in this and I teach this now.
(05:31):
So it's kind of full circle. Right. You have your
own experiences and you're like, I get this, I understand
why you're feeling this way. Um, but like those perfectionist tendencies. Right, So,
even as a very driven, high achieving person, you have
these things that like nothing's ever good enough, right, and
you're comparing, you know, you're finding those like nitpicky things
that like today wasn't good enough, that wasn't fast enough, Um,
(05:54):
that race wasn't perfectly executed right, So you just kind
of beat yourself down. Which then, right with perfectional tendencies,
you kind of wear yourself out and you burn yourself
out just because you're so incredibly hard on yourself. There's
no sense of self compassion, there's no sense of finding
those things that you're doing well right, and it wears
you down. Um. So if I think about myself in
(06:15):
those moments and the pressure that I put on myself
and even shifting to like motivation, Um, when I was
training for to make the Olympic team, like again, those
perfectial tendencies came through. But then also just my the
expectation of pleasing others changed and when I was at
my best, it was like for my pursuit. Right. I
(06:36):
loved running, I wanted to do well. I love training
with my teammates, I loved racing people. Right, and so
now when I was racing professionally, now it changed to
making money. Now, it changed to sponsors. Now, it changed
to others expectations, right, and so those two things, right,
they fuel you differently, right, and so identify with like
(06:59):
a lot of the things are players go through in
terms of where that focus is, right and where that
motivation is or those external pressures that we put on ourselves, right,
and so helping to shift back to those things that
are core of like why do we do this? Why
do what motivates us? Why do we love the sport?
And being able to stay connected to those things are
(07:20):
really important just for sustainability in your own sense of
well being and happiness in the sport. Right. Okay, So
before we get into your journey to the jets, I
want to touch on what you just said, that balance
of doing something for just the love of it, but
then also doing your sport or whatever you're doing for
the monetary aspect and to kind of put food on
(07:41):
the table. What is that proper balance because I think
a lot of times, like you said, they motivate you
in different ways. So it's good to have a little
bit of both, but when maybe one gets too powerful,
it kind of throws the balance off, right, Yep. So
I would say in terms of motivation, it is a
little personal, right, So each individual person has their things
(08:05):
that motivate them, right, and being able to identify what
motivates me right now is really important, um. To even
have that sense of reflection of what's going on with
me in my life, what's helping me through this, what's
helping me through this season, this week, this day, whatever
it is is important. UM. I will say from my
(08:25):
studies and then my work, those that well, they're a
little psychology intrinsic motivation, right, So that desire two master
the skill set to be the best we can be. Right,
All those things that help us feel joy, a sense
of accomplishment, right, all those things matter in terms of
our motivation. Um, and I think the best of the
(08:47):
best have that pure love of the sport or even
if we want to say professionally, like you have a
passion for your work, And that's really really important. The
different things motivationally, right, we can take a deeper dive
into that. Right. So those things things that anchor us
or that helps support us. Right, So our family, our friends,
(09:08):
taking care of the people we love, right, all those
things also helped to just strengthen that motivation as well.
So you finish your career with running you retire from
your professional career. This is a twofold question. Hey, was
that hard to transition from like a top performing athlete
to then going into a general workforce in the working field,
(09:31):
and then to what was then your journey to then
get to the jets? Oh yeah, I mean it was perfect? Yeah, right?
When we think this, right, we just think like you know,
and even if I think back to myself, like, um
and my journey, right when you're going through it, it
might look like it's like perfect, and it's just not right.
(09:51):
So I didn't make the Olympic team. I was completely
devastated and heartbroken. I was completely lost. Right that your
sense of identity, your sense of s health is just
really takes a hit, right, and so you're you're left
putting yourself back together, right, And I think that that's
true for a lot of people that go through different
(10:12):
transitions in life, right, Um, either transitions that you anticipate, right,
Like I'm going to anticipate, okay, after this season, I'm
going to retire. I'm going to anticipate whatever or unanticipated, right,
And Um, when I did not make the Olympic team,
I was pretty much in denial, right because I in
my mind, I was like, I'm gonna run till I'm whatever,
(10:35):
till I'm untill I can't right. Um, But that wasn't
it right? And so again, in that moment, you're kind
of left with, Okay, how do I how do I
piece myself back together? Right? And it's a lot of
like deep soul searching, it's a lot of like leaning
on your support system. I was not an easy person
to be around at that time, right, because you're you're struggling,
(10:57):
and and I think that we like to shy away
from those things, right because no one likes to struggle,
no one likes to hurt, no one likes their identity
to take a huge hit. Um. And it takes time
to figure those things out, right. And so I actually
went moved back to Nebraska and was volunteer coaching at
the University of Nebraska, and that really helped me. Um.
(11:19):
I say, I had to wean myself off running, right
because in my mind, I was like, I want to
still continue to run, I want to still continue to train,
but I also was like completely burn out, like needed
time away, hated running, but wanted nothing more than to run.
It's a weird juxtaposition, really really weird space. But then
each day, you know, you try to find that sense
(11:39):
of purpose. And I would say, like it took me,
It took me a year to like find what I
was going to do next, and even then it was
still really difficult, right. It was really hard for me
to watch races, It was really hard for me to
go to track meets, right, um, and again it just
takes time. But I think through that, I then I
went back to grad school, So I think, like going
(12:01):
back to graduate school, I had a lot of things
to work on, right, So part of me feels like
I like cheated my master's program and PhD program because
I was always working on myself, right, like working through
my identity, what happened in my sport experience, my own
psychology in terms of where did I mess up or
not mess up? Well, we'll use different words. Where where
(12:22):
could I have benefited from sports psychology or performance psychology
that would have helped me? Right? And then I think
through that, you'r you find new passions and your passion
to change. And then all those experiences that were once
really really painful I believe actually have helped me become
much better at my job just because I am empathetic
and I do understand from like a lived experience way, right,
(12:45):
you have that background and you're able to kind of
empathize like you were saying, I mean even from me,
like a collegiate athlete who was not Olympic bound by
any means, and you anticipate that like retirement, that end
of your sport. I remember working out was really difficult
for me because I was used to working out for
(13:06):
like six hours a day and burning thousands and thousands
of calories and getting like so much more endorphins because
of my workout. And then I went from a desk job,
like it was just such a drastic drop. Yes, yes,
and it is. And I would say, like I had
to do a lot of work on myself psychology wise,
of like Annie, a thirty minute workout is great, right, right,
(13:29):
Like it's okay to just go for a three mile run,
That's okay, right, Where normally like three miles was my
morning run and then I'd have an afternoon it was
like eight, ten miles whatever. Right, So it was like, yeah,
just those transitions again with your identity and what's healthy
and what's normal, and it's it's tough, right, because we
have these habits, right, and we work really hard on
(13:50):
forming these habits as an athlete, or forming these habits
to help us be successful. And then it's like, wait this,
I got to kind of redo some of these things,
right or I need to um evolve or change some
of these habits that I once had. So now it's
helpful for me in my professional career versus like my
athletic career. Right, the transition has got to be just
one of the hardest things for anyone going through any
(14:12):
type of transition. But so you graduate and then where
do you go to further your professional career? Yeah? So
after grad school, UM, I really wanted to in my mind,
I wanted to be somewhere where I was doing teaching,
doing some research and working with athletes. And so that
took me to San Diego, where I was doing some teaching,
(14:35):
doing some work at the Olympic Training Center. I worked
with the Paralympic athletes, which was really cool. I was
a guide runner for a visually impaired athlete, which was
like super cool. I don't talk about it that much,
but the Olympic Training Center in Chula Vista is a really,
really cool place because you have um pair of athletes
that are working working right alongside and training every day
UM with able body athletes and it's just such a
(14:57):
cool place. UM and and yeah, so in that I
was just continuing to learn, doing some coaching education and
really just getting my feet wet in terms of that
post PhD. And then from there took a job with
the United States Air Force, which was for me, it
was tools that I needed in my professional UM pockets
(15:19):
I guess we'll say, or professional toolbox whatever UM to
really understand the you can't say selection assessment, but basically
to understand how does the military UM identify and helps
support high performers, right so they're special warfare, their general officers,
(15:41):
things like that, and then how do we do research
education consultation with those entities. And that was really cool
experience just to learn, um how the Air Force does
a lot of that work, which then has ultimately helped
me in draft work, draft selection things like that, which
I just really really love all that work. Yeah. So
(16:03):
were you on any sports teams as like a director
of mental performance or a psychologist before you came to
the Jets. Yeah, so I worked with USA Truck and
Field for a while UM and was one of their
sports site consultants and then also worked with the Oklahoma
City Thunder and that was a really really cool experience
(16:23):
UM to be with that organization, UM as one of
their performance sykes. So you had all the all the
backgrounds to help you prepare for this job. But what
is your day to day with Jets players or coaching
staff so or what really goes into your job? Yeah,
so kind of taking that military model. So in the
military they in bed psychologists within their organizations right or
(16:46):
within their UM different units. And so I'm embedded here
with the Jets, So that means like I'm I'm in
it right. So in the mornings guys come through, UM,
I'm there. I'm there for training um as guys have
their breaks between their meetings, UM, so I'm in it right,
travel with the team, UM work with the coaches. So
(17:08):
kind of wherever they are, I am and that provides
opportunities to have these interactions. UM do some do some
consults and then just be be where I need to
be as as things are needed. What do you think
is the most challenging part maybe or what surprised you
most about working for an NFL team. That's a really
(17:29):
good question. Oh gosh, um, Yeah, what surprised me the
most or what's like the hardest part because it's very different,
I'm sure different basketball or the air Force, which you
also work for, So it's what is that Maybe it's
the structure of it that's different, or the long, grueling
(17:53):
kind of schedule of eighteen weeks where you're really locked in.
What do you think was maybe most took you by
most surprised? Oh, I don't know if I can answer that.
What took me by most surprised? I think probably the
cadence took took a little bit for me to get
used to write just the length of how things the
(18:13):
length of the season, but then kind of those just
the ride of the season, right, the highs, the lows
in betweens, um, all of that was took definitely a
little bit of time to kind of get used to.
There's also so many players on a Celtic, So how
do you how do you kind of like, how do
(18:34):
you take a different approach for each player? Because I'm
sure obviously everything's individualized, but is how does that process happen? Yeah?
So a good point, but Okay, the hardest part for
me was learning everyone's name. And it wasn't like learning
their name. It was like learning like what their nickname
is or what people call them, right, And it's very
(18:55):
different for each person. Um, So for all the players,
all the staff, that definitely I took a long time
that I have them on now so so we're good.
But that took literally all season last year to like
really learn um and build those just relationships with those
guys so that they could trust me. They knew that
in their corner, I'm here to support them, try to
check my ego and really just try to be an
(19:17):
unbiased space for them to help them, right, that's my job. Um,
And I would say that, um, how do I can
how do I you ask? How do I the different
personalities that that are there? And that's actually my favorite
part of my job, right because, Um, I think people
are really fascinating. I've said this before, but I just
(19:38):
like love people. Like I think people are super fascinating
in terms of how they how they think about things,
their own journeys, Like there are guys have incredible stories
and incredible journeys and that's just really cool to hear.
So I think if everyone was the same, then I
might be bored. But since there's such a variety and
personality and person is so different, like, I just I
(20:02):
love that. So it's cool to be able to UM,
And I think it helps me and my skill set
to be able to like adjust as needed. Right, And
this is why I'm a trained professional, because I have
a different skill set to be able to meet the
needs of the individual person. Right. Do you feel as
though you've ever gotten any pushback from a player or
even a coach or just anyone that you've worked with
(20:25):
that hasn't thought that mental aspect is as important and
you've had to kind of break that barrier down and
earn their trust in that way. Yeah, I think that
everyone understands the importance of the mental side and building
those mindsets. Um. But this is the first time that
the Jets have had a director of mental performance and
someone that is specialized embedded with the team. Um. This
(20:49):
this role didn't exist before me, and so I think
as a whole, we're adjusting to in sports and general
sports psychology, performance psychology, mental performance is gaining traction, and
so I think that's what it's more about, is like
here's a new role that maybe we're not really sure exactly.
(21:09):
So that's kind of more I think the pushback or
some of the barriers that that I faces, like, Okay, well,
how do we utilize her? What should I use her for?
What does she actually do? Right? And so that's my
job to educate on here are the ways that I
can support you, or here are the things that I
can help teach you. What are some of the biggest
obstacles that our guys face that you have to kind
(21:32):
of help them through, and what are those techniques that
you use with them? Yeah, so again, each person is different, right, So, um,
probably the easiest thing to go to is just transition
into the league. Right, So if you think about being drafted,
being undrafted and just that transition wherever you're coming from
to the league and to the Jets is a really
(21:53):
really big thing. So just that on board and getting
used to this environment, transitioning to new to to two
new teammates, to new coaches, and just understanding what it
takes to be successful at this level, right, that's like
a really really big one. UM, help the guys win
with injuries, right, and injuries are just a nasty part
of the game, and um, are really really challenging and difficult. Right.
(22:18):
I don't know if you were ever injured as an athlete,
but like injuries are just devastating, right, they take a
hit on your identity, um, and those things are really
challenging too. So those are other things. And then just
everything psychology wise in terms of teaching mental skills, right,
helping them understand their own psychology, helping them invest in
their own mental game um and whatever that is. Right, So,
(22:39):
whether it's like managing performance anxiety, dealing with pressure, dealing
with outside distractions, helping with their attention and focus right,
so focuses the foundational mental skill of like what are
we focused on? Our attention you know gets distracted like
half the time, our minds wander, So how do we
stay focused on the information? And even just like the
season is so long, right, so how do I, um
(23:02):
help support myself through the entire season so that I
have the emotional stamina the physical stamina to endure the season.
Last one for you, what do you think is your
favorite part of the job or maybe your favorite memory
from this season that you're just really proud of or
you can't believe happened? What do you think that is
for you. Oh I. My favorite part of my job
(23:24):
is our players, Like they make me laugh every day.
They're awesome guys. Um. It's my favorite part is seeing
them happy and seeing them surpass their own expectations or
surprised themselves. UM. And that that's my favorite part of
my job, is like seeing those guys excited and happy
and um, knowing how hard they work and their dedication
(23:45):
to the game. UM. And when those things come to fruition,
right when you see those things happen, it just like
brings me a lot of joy. Awesome. Thanks so much
for your time and it was so great to really
understand and do a deep dive of what you do
every day you're going to the life. Thank you, M
M M
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