The Helmet Catch and The Two Bills

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today on the NFL Films Podcast, we'll explore the Timeline
The Helmet Catch, the newest installment of the documentary series
that remembers the great moments in NFL history, A double Dip, PAULI.
We're gonna talk to Ken Rogers as well about the

(00:21):
new thirty for thirty, the two Bills, A Giant Giant,
Did you hear the Big g? And that one Giant?
NFL Films Podcast today, folks, I'm Paul, I'm Keith. Welcome
aboard double Decker, Polly, this could be our biggest episode ever. Today, Keith,
you were surrounded by three New York Football Giant fans,

(00:43):
myself and of course for this segment, Ryan Kelly and
Steve Lookator are the co producers of the Timeline The
Helmet Catch. In the Rooney Mara Balance of the Universe,
my friend today, it's all Mara, So welcome to this show.
I hope you and enjoy the three of us in
the what I call the SMH episode, because that's what

(01:05):
I was doing the whole time I watched the Helmet Catch.
I don't know if you guys have gotten over it yet,
but I don't know if I ever will. So welcome
to the show, guys. Thanks thanks for having us. Thank you.
I'm excited. I've watched the film last night, The Helmet Catch,
with my seven year old son Max, and he was
riveted to the whole thing. Unfortunately, we were watching a

(01:28):
rough cut and so we he heard a couple of
f bombs that had not yet been bleeped out. We
should start there, because this is a film that um
and we're gonna get a call in a few minutes
from the star of the film, David Tyree. But there
are a lot of ways that you guys could have
gone with this story to tell this story, And for instance,

(01:51):
you could have gone with the Boston with the New
England perspective, and here's a taste of that. It's worse
than the Bucket Den home run in they gave the
Yankees the playoff game win. Tyree will always be a
strand in the d n A for this Patriots franchise.
So David Tyree, yes is bucket Dent in a helmet

(02:17):
Tarviscreen tells me to this day that he has nightmares
still that play is going to be somewhere in the
back of my head for the rest of my life.
I should have sacked elive. Should have been my play,
should have been my play gotta be sacked. No, No,
he got out of it. How did you get away
from that? How do they fail to sack him? They

(02:40):
were held, we'd be blocking off, didn't block anybody. I
don't know how. Yeah, they should have thrown Sean O'Hara
in a patty wagon after the game for the way
that he assaulted Richard Seymour. There's a difference between holding
and clutching. Clutching is when you just kind of grab something.
That's something that happened to be Seymour's tray chia. But

(03:07):
so Tom Current did he say that line? Had he
said that line somewhere else or or or was that
fresh for this interview? I believe it was fresh for
the interview. When we were thinking about the show almost
a year ago, Muky Wilson and Bill Buckner was the
first thing that came to mind, and we were like saying,

(03:28):
that's sort of there's a parallel there. Two guys from
New York and Boston who's whose lives changed forever because
of one play, and they're linked to each other now,
and they're linked to each other now and we just
went in cold, asked him about you know, hey, is
it like Mookie and Buckner and asking Current about it? Yeah,
asking Current, asking Nick Stevens he was the Patriots fan

(03:51):
in the show. Comedian, He's done interviews for us for
other shows, and he's he's a funny guy, has a
good take on things. And but Tom Current, the Boston
former Boston newspaperman who now works UM for NBC up
in New England, said he gave the great line there
that that you know, comparing him to David Tyree, to

(04:14):
Bucky Den and David Tyree ultimately is the person, um,
you chose to tell this story about most. Why did
you make that decision? Well, we um, you know, he
was willing. First of all, he was willing to give
us lots of access and to basically, you know, have

(04:34):
him do whatever you know, we asked him to do,
which he was great about. I mean, hey, David, can
you walk through Times Square and go unrecognized? Yeah? Sure?
And um we decided that instead of a show where
you saw lots of you know, talking heads, what if
David Tyree goes and tries to you know, glean or

(04:56):
divine the meaning of the helmet catch uh with the
people who you know, helped make it happen. His friends,
his teammates, his coach. So we had David Tyree, um
go and basically interview Eli Manning, Michael Strahan and Tom
Coughlin and um, you know, just doing research on David

(05:18):
Tyree's life. He has a very fascinating life story and
the way he tells it is very authentic. And at
that point, you know, you make these films and there's
a point at which, you know, up until that point,
you kind of shape the way you want the film

(05:38):
to be, and then you get to that point where
the film shapes itself. And once David Tyree was on board,
and you know, once we sort of integrated his backstory
into this film, that's when the film started telling us
what it was going to be. So it became a
very David Tyree Giants centric show. And you know, the

(06:00):
Boston perspective, while I think still represented in the film,
got smaller and smaller and smaller. And you know, I've
been thinking about this all year as we've been making
this film. There's that oh seven Patriots team, there's you know,
there's a great film about them that's going to be
made someday. You know, there's still sort of that reckoning

(06:22):
that's out there. You said that he was willing, you know,
and it's great that when someone's willing to to go
and do you know when you watch the film, you'll
see that there's quite a few shoots with David Tyree.
This was not as simple as David sit down and
do a soul bearing interview. He did multiple shoots with
you guys. Um. So it's one thing to be willing.
It's another to have, as as you said, Ryan, like

(06:46):
enough story to be the backbone of of a full documentary.
And I think that that might be the revelation and
the and this and the and the real victory of
this film is to discover this guy who whose career
was made by this one moment, but whose life certainly
had so much more to it. And this moment became

(07:10):
a launching point for for you know, a validation for
how far he had come, but but also a launching
point for who he is now. And you know, his
story has so much to do with his faith. And
you know, it's kind of a tricky subject around here, religion,
Like you know, it can really easily be not handled well.

(07:32):
And what David made easy for us is being really
authentic and open and clear about the nature of how
he came to his faith and what it means to
him and how that's tied into the helmet catch for him. Well,
that's an interesting point you make, because we often struggle,

(07:52):
not not because anyone is one religion or another, but
but as storytellers and filmmakers, you just know, you know
if you're going to get the eye roll or the
here it comes. Religion has a different place in our
world now, so so we we often just avoid it
as filmmakers in our in our in our stories. Even
when someone is very religious and wants to give you,

(08:15):
um religious answers to questions and interviews, we tend to
we tend to leave that stuff out of our films
for better or worse. We didn't want to tone it down.
And but he he wasn't in your face with it.
He has a good handle and perspective on it. And
he even in his interview portions maybe that we didn't use.
He understands that in his words, that religion does get

(08:36):
marginalized in the locker room. Guys do have their opinions
about it. Some don't want to hear it. And I
think when we did the interview, we didn't want him
to tone it down. We wanted his real perspective from
where he's coming from, because it is it is a
part of the story when you watch the film, it's genuine.

(08:57):
It's not something that was I don't think it was
made up. He truly believes that God intervened in that moment.
So you went into this knowing, you know, you know
his story has this religious thread to it, and you
guys decided beforehand we're gonna go in and attack it
head on. We're not We're not gonna We're not gonna

(09:17):
try to minimize this or no, I don't. I don't think.
I mean, on a certain level, I don't think we
had a choice. I mean, given the way he looks
at this play, it would be you know, it would
be almost dishonest to to tone that back. Right, if
you're going to tell the story this is this is
because because that's how that's how he sees it. All right, Well,

(09:41):
he's calling us now, let's hear it straight from David
Tyree himself. Hello, David, I do good. This is Paul.

(10:06):
I'm with Keith were the host of the podcast. Thanks
for calling in. We're also with Steve and Ryan, who
you uh you know from the film? Hey, David, Paul Keith, Steve, Ryan,
Hey guys, what are we doing great? How are you excited? Man?
I'm doing well? Man. So you got to know these
guys pretty well making this film over the last several months.

(10:27):
Did you enjoy the process? I did? I did? It
was it was they made it. They made enjoyable and
obviously a lot of pieces to it. Um makes me appreciate,
you know, your craft. Did you when you first got
the call that we were making this film and we
wanted you to be part of it, did you expect
that that that it was going to be as extensive
as it was? You know, I can't say I expected it,

(10:51):
but I would say that you want I looked at
the layout, it all made sense. I guess that's that's
That's probably the only way I can really shape that.
There's no small little thing, but you definitely have to
appreciate the level of detail that goes into a project
like that. The guys are putting the finishing touches on
the helmet. Catch our episode of the Timeline that will

(11:14):
premiere on NFL Network. But we wanted to play you
a couple of moments for you get your reaction. Here's
one with your coach and with your teammate and discussing,
you know, the struggles you went through early in your career.
You came in and sat down, and of course, to
be honest with you, David upset through a hundred of these,

(11:34):
you know, and some instinctively, Uh, I felt like we
really needed to eliminate this player. You work and trite.
I thought you were very sincere, and you were a
hometown guy. You were playing a couple of miles from
where you grew up. Besides that, you knew that this
was the end of the rope. I mean, if this

(11:56):
was not gonna work here and this reputation precede, did
you any place else? There was probably was gonna be
no chance. So there was some risks involved. But I knew.
I thought I knew exactly how I could motivate and
inspire and what I could get out of you. In return,
you owned up to it, and I think that an
appreciation for making a mistake and get yourself in a

(12:17):
situation that you know better. There you go, you know
better you know your mom doll rage it like that,
but to the man up and say, yeah, you know
what I did it. I made a mistake, I put
myself in a bad situation. I won't do it again.
And you did that. And I think from a human
being standpoint, also from a team makes standpoint. When you
care about somebody, that's what you want to see. So, David,

(12:37):
one of the things we love about this show is
is obviously the role you, the central role you playing
in and how we get to meet you, but we
really get to meet your teammates, your coach, and we
see we get a lot of insight into how sort
of a team takes care of each other, uh inside
the locker room in a scene like this, if you
could just kind of explain how, whether it's Michael or

(12:57):
Plexico or Coach Coffin, how those guys were there for
you in that difficult moment, you know, the interesting dynamic
of it all is, as much as it was very
well captured, how Chris and my my transformation was really
the centerpiece of it all. And because I knew the

(13:17):
change was real, I felt as if the contrition was
was real and necessary. Um, the gratitude came in that
that I've never really knew at that capacity for for people,
for for people's surbeyance, understanding, willingness. So um, Now, when

(13:40):
you're interacting with these people, you never know what the
reaction is going to be and so I never expected
anything or much So everything was really a surplus when
you get that positive response. And that's typical, meaning like
as far as in the family, no one's expecting anybody
to be perfect, but there's always a great measure of

(14:00):
support and you know, and and I experienced that at
the highest levels, especially from Coach Coughlin with that reputation
that he had coming in. Um. But but teammates, you know,
we're all kind of there's a certain measure of you know,
growing pains that I've always appreciated about the sport that
has made roomful and you're talking about young men who

(14:23):
don't really know how to do life. Well, you know,
I exemplified that to a great degree. So um, you know,
I can't I can't speak volumes enough to everybody being
willing to be a part of my process. It was
interesting to see your relationships with Coach Coughlin, with Michael Strahan,
who we just heard from in that clip, as well
as Eli Manning in this film. It does a really

(14:46):
good way pairing you with those guys in different scenes
and having you interact the way you do so honestly
and openly, really gave us a glimpse into the kind
of relationships that develop on a pro football teams. Paul
alluded to, and I was just wondering if doing those shoots,
is it challenging to have those conversations on camera and

(15:08):
go back to these moments in your life or was
it very natural once you were together, even though the
cameras were rolling. Well, for me, it's very natural. You know.
Every time I get a chance to talk about my
former life, good, bad and in different it's it's an
opportunity to be transparent. I feel that, Um, there's there's
the necessity of that. I have no shame about the

(15:31):
person that I once was because I'm no longer that
person in regard to the negative aspects. So, you know,
the interesting thing for me, what the interesting experience was
how much other people remember recalling how you know, hearing
it from them, because there's not a It wasn't much.
I have great relationships while all those people they're not deep,

(15:52):
deep relationship and that was really the really neat dynamic
for me is just you know, usually when you're around them,
it's good lad memories, um, good time right now, and
then you get a chance to hang out with family,
but that's rare. So it was really, you know, kind
of like having a conversation with a family member and
I'm telling you things about yourself that you might not do. David,

(16:14):
how has this experience and what is unfolded in this story,
whether it's having a bad practice and having to come
back on Sunday and playing the super Bowl, or whether
it's having that conversation at hard conversation with your coach
and your teammates, how has that prepared you for what
you do now? And kind of just explain for the
folks I haven't seen the film yet what your job is,
and I'm wondering if there's any examples that that you've

(16:37):
now encountered in your new role with the Giants where
you've taken that experience and it's informed your ability to
help others, you know. Of course, I think the main
thing that I've that I've learned from my personal experiences
and living it out through that football team is really ownership.
You know something I really believe deeply in taking full

(16:59):
ownership for your life. And that's a little bit more
than responsibility. So you're taking ownership of why something didn't
go right. Um. You know, something I learned through football
in college was well, you know what if if they're
not playing me as a wide receiver, then I'm obviously

(17:20):
not outstanding enough to the point where they feel like
idiots for not putting me in. And so it taught
me to take full ownership for everything that I was
or wasn't And I think, you know, some of the bad,
bad decisions that I've made along the way, bad choices
at whatever cost, bad performances, it was just taking full
ownership in a self aware kind of way that allowed

(17:43):
me to grow through the process and get and optimize
my experiences and grow. I think that's what life is
all about. So translates something that you know, that kind
of perspective, even as a young man, was probably a
little bit of a gift um and regarded you know,
at least having an internal focus to see his moments

(18:03):
for for change, growth and ultimately transformation. You know, and
I've learned that it's not about the outcome. It's more
about who I'm becoming. So that's when I look about,
you know, the unfavorable circumstances that led to fruit, it
was all about who I was becoming in the process.
You've been involved with the NFL now for what upwards

(18:24):
of fifteen years and seeing it from so many different perspectives,
as a as a player who was almost out of
the league having made personal mistakes, as as a player
who made one of the greatest players in football history,
and and and had a parade in Manhattan to where
you are now. And I'm just curious, has the game changed?

(18:45):
Have the players changed? People are always saying, you know,
it's not what it used to be, but you've been
around long enough now to have a sense of where
the league is right now today, UM, and curious on
your perspective of that. I'm actually glad you're asked. That
is something that give give thought to. And I think
the game has um and and all. Honestly, I think
the game has grown to be better in many different ways.

(19:09):
And along with the growth, the game is obviously garnered
a lot more attention, and obviously, living in a digital world, UM,
everybody has an opinion and everybody has something to say,
and there's a lot more negative opinions, and um, you
know some of it, I would I would be honest
to say that it's unfair or unjust because everybody's opinion

(19:30):
in my you know, from my vantage point, doesn't mean
it's important. But everything is reportable and I think that's
the biggest change dynamics. Everyone has something to say. You know.
The damaging part is, you know, the cronies that that
don't recognize that football is just a microcosm of life,

(19:50):
you know. And as much as these men on the
field harald the warriors, they're they're broken men. They've broken
young men who are figuring life out and they've chows
in a pathway that is that has guarded them a
lot of attention. So, um, if they only had a
little more forbearance on the men that are that are
playing the game, and they can see that as much

(20:11):
as there are there are heroes, um all all of
our heroes have have wounds that are healing. So I'm always,
you know, considering the fact that the standards are never
going to change in regard to the opportunity, but that
needs to be a human element that's attached to you know,
our our views as we consider the game moving forward.

(20:32):
Talking to David Tyree, the central figure in the timeline
the Helmet Catch, which is premiering on the NFL network. Uh,
we're gonna play another clip for you here, David. And
as we've been talking about, this film is such a
great marriage. I think Ryan Steve did an awesome job
of it really intermingles your personal biography with sort of
the biography of a moment in time as it relates

(20:53):
to all the people that were involved in It really
dives deep into that moment and and in this clip,
it sort of brings us into essentially the the just
before the Super Bowl kind of a scene that unfolded
in real life just before Super Bowl forty two out
in Arizona, and it's it's a little bit of this
personal backstory and some of the football elements, and I
think it's a good example of how this film intermingles

(21:15):
the two of them. It definitely paid the way for
a lot of repetitions, but it also set the stage
for what was probably one of the worst practices and
Super Bowl practice weak history. I think I threw your
seven passes that day and you dropped six, so I
think you've got like a hitch for four yards. It
was bad, It was pathetic. The ball was hitting you everywhere,

(21:38):
a ball to hit you to the point. If you remember,
we still beat him my ball, myself, Antonio Pierre, everybody
beat him up ball. But I remember coming out to
you after and said, hey, you're a gamer. Forget about it.
And uh, you know, sure enough stepped up big. The
night before the game and Super Bowls. We're praying together,
just good to pray. I give this Fredi word, David.

(22:02):
The Lord's gonna quicken your feet, is gonna give you
hinds feet like the feet of a deer. And he says,
the Lord is putting spiritual glue on your hands. God
is gonna give you the big play. I'm a believer,
you know. I mean, like you know, I believe that
God can speak and however he choose to, and and
so I believe those words. I love it. Thirty to

(22:24):
go in the fourth quarter Matriot seven Giants, three second
and three at the New England five yard line. I
read wide right and up play. Fact man in your
throat to the end, that's not believe on the ball game.
And I was like, what my man, who was getting

(22:45):
beat up by the ball at now called to tun
down and listener, ball, It's gonna be a good day.
So David is a Giants fan, which I am. Even
without the picture, I get to have a sort of
a visceral reaction to that story, A remembering in the
hair start to stand up in the back of my neck.
But I mean, you lived it, So what sort of
reaction do you have hearing the recollection of that story. Yeah,

(23:10):
it's like, uh, it's almost like Cali. I knew it
was bad, but I just didn't realize it was that bad.
That's the first reaction. But ultimately, you know, I never
waited in confidence in regard to my ability to you know,
to see the moment. And all I could consider was, man,
I just hope I get the opportunity. And I think

(23:33):
that's been the song of my life. Just just let
me just give me an opportunity. And you know, especially
when they called that play on the goal line, uh
for the for the touchdown. To me, that was it.
That was the height of glory. You know. I could
have took my ball home and could have wrapped everything

(23:53):
up right there. Beat the Pats and I had one
to two catches in one touchdown and all would have
been done finding well and written, you know, written a
perfect story. In my mind and heart too. That's kind
of what I think about when I when I considered
that the whole story, just like man, it was really
it was really that bad. How could it be this good?

(24:15):
There's a bite, there's an interview bite. Actually I don't
it didn't make the show, but Peter king In in
his part of the interview, he was talking about it
in his mind and his it's his theory that, especially
given the story of how your practice was um with
the drops, that when Eli throws you the ball um
and you end up catching the touchdown early in the
fourth quarter, that if you dropped that ball, chances are

(24:37):
Eli might not be coming back to you later in
the game on third and five. I just want to
get your reaction to that. Do you think there's a
relationship between that play that you made, the early touchdown
and instilling Eli with the confidence of knowing when he
flat when you flashed in his eyes down the field,
that he could throw it back to you. No, you know,

(24:58):
and all honestly, I was only watten, I say no,
is you know, I don't think Eli knew who he
was throwing the ball to on third and five coming
up that coming out that um that almost sacked there,
you know, just and I think, you know he sees
a white jersey down there, and he he looks open
for a second, and you're gonna give it a go.

(25:18):
That's the only reason why I would say no, no connection.
But um, Ultimately, one thing that I always felt certain
about was that Eli had confidence in me because the
savvy of my game was knowing everything as I received.
Wasn't that I was obviously so fast and so swift,
and so it was that I knew the detail of
the position. And I felt like we were always compatible

(25:42):
and that garnered his his trust anytime I was in
the game. So one last question. Listening to that clip,
I'm struck by you know, here we are, we're recording
this a few days before Super Bowl fifty two, and
you had that horror able practice and rebounded and got

(26:02):
yourself mentally ready to have the game of your life.
So I guess the last question would be what advice
would you give to all those Eagles and Patriots that
are getting ready to play in this game or or other,
anyone who's getting ready to do anything in their life
that could be the biggest event they will ever be
a part of. And to get yourself mentally ready to

(26:24):
go out and to do everything you've trained to do
for your whole life. You know, I think there's so
much to believing it's something bigger than yourself. And obviously
my something was Jesus Christ. So you know, I tell
them pray, you know, tell them to have faith beyond
the biggest mountain and lay hold of the promise that
they believe is before. Then if you know, you to

(26:47):
believe that you're you're creative for something bigger than what
you're experiencing right now. And I think all actions are
hinged in our beliefs. That's a simple reality that lived
out not many people would like always acknowledge. No one
lives contrary than their beliefs. So you know, if you
believe that you'll you'll be great, you'll prepare like it

(27:08):
and uh whereas there might not be fruit in every
day's preparation, but you'll continue to prepare like it and
believe that you're gonna be ready to receive that Harvard
more or less, so, prayably all right, Well, David Tyree,
thank you for taking a few minutes to join us.
And uh, you know, the guys Ryan and Steve did

(27:29):
a great job with the film and and and we're
all grateful from everybody at NFL Films for for your
participation and in this project. I hope, I hope you're
happy with how it turned out. No, I'm super thrilled.
You know, Ryan, Steve, you got rock stars. You know.
I'm there. We can hang out, um after this is
all over. But it was. It was a tremendous honor

(27:49):
to be a part, you know. And I consider it
that much. I can't say a lot enough. Um. I
consider all that's come from this on being on the
heels of of you know, Steve Stable making that after
the super Bowl by saying this is the greatest play
in super Bowl history. That's what my belief is headed
on because of you know, the founder of uh, you know,

(28:12):
the family, founder of this wonderful state film. So I'm grateful,
Thank you guys, and let's let's let's rock on and
looking forward to a great production. All right, thank you,
Thanks David, thank you. I appreciate you guys. Well fellas

(28:42):
David Tyree. As we record this, we're still finishing the film,
so he had not yet seen the entire thing. But
it was great to play him a couple of clips,
and uh, I thought it was a good conversation. It
went in directions that we we actually would have thought
based on our conversation before him. He's true blue, as

(29:03):
Bob Poppa says, he's true blue. You know, he's true
to himself. He's you know, the words he speaks are
or what you know, how he feels the truth is.
And he's just a you know, a very genuine person.
We probably didn't do a good enough job before that
call of giving the background of who David Tyree was,

(29:26):
you know, prior to that moment, you know, and and
and and the depth that he sunk to and how
close he was to being out of the NFL. Why
you give us a little background on on his his biography. Honestly,
we probably could have done an entire show just on
his background. But you know, we only had forty four
minutes and we had to cover the helmet catch, not
David Tyree's entire story. But long story short, he's a

(29:51):
Jersey guy. He grew up a few minutes from Giant Stadium.
He was a Niners fan. That that was was not
in the film, but he got He got booed by
by Michael Strahan for being a forty Niners fan. But
grew up at Montclair East, Orange, tough, blue collar neighborhoods,
had sort of a tough upbringing. His mom pretty much

(30:13):
raised him and his sisters. Gets involved in high school sports,
becomes really good at football, gets scholarship offers. But as
he's ascending in junior high and early high school, he
starts drinking, starts smoking weed on weekends, and continues to
do this all through high school and it gets worse

(30:34):
and worse. As he gets to college. He's just drinking
until he blacks out. Has a lot of problems in school.
His relationships are strained with his girlfriend and now wife.
I believe they had a child and their relationship was
on the rocks for a while. Ends up getting drafted
by the Giants. Uh. It was Ernie A course he

(30:57):
was not. He was the one who they were watching
film on him at Syracuse and they said, this is
the best special teams guy we have ever seen. And
this is after. Sorry, Steve, this is after. If you
want to draw a line from A to B. This
is this is the draft right after the trade Junken game.
So that spring and this is something we tried to

(31:18):
sort of the trade Junken game being being the Giants
signed long time long snapper Specialist for their two thousand
two playoff game in San Francisco, and he had been
retired and his bad snap basically cost the Giants the playoffs.
So that following spring, Ernie a corsi um he says,

(31:41):
we need to revamp the special teams unit, signs a
new long snappers, signs Brian Mitchell from the Eagles to
return kicks, and they draft in the sixth round David
Tyree is one of the best special teams player in
Ernie A Corsia know who it is. It was. It
was Jim Fossil who said that to a Corsie. From
now that I recall, you don't get that off and
you don't get people drafting a guy specifically because he's

(32:03):
he's a special team's freak. That's pretty rare, especially in
the sixth round. That's sort of undrafted free agent territory. Absolutely, yeah,
but I think they saw he did have value as
a receiver. He did. He did do some some decent
things as a receiver in college, but he really wasn't
known as a as a special teams player. But then
he he continued his his decline into drugs and alcohol.

(32:28):
In his words, he was able to hide it in college.
It you know, never cost him really in college, but
the NFL, it exposes your character, and it just throughout
that two thousand three season, his rookie season. Um, he
just you know, it was kind of a descent. He
was late to practice. In his words, he showed up

(32:48):
too late to practice, smelling like a brewery, just you know, liquor,
sweating liquor out of his pores. Um, he's showing up,
you know, he's showing up to two schools telling kids
not to do drugs. And then in his words, he's
jumping in his car and lighting up a blunt. And
eventually in that to that after the offseason, after two

(33:09):
thousand three, the same offseason where the Giants hired Tom Coughlin,
uh Tyree decides to start selling marijuana as and he
gets pulled over and arrested for marijuana possession. And you know,
as you see in the film, he's sitting in a
jail cell in Fort Lee, New Jersey, and he calls

(33:32):
out to God basically, and from that moment on his
life was transformed. Um, he still had to face Coach Coughlin,
and at that's the point at which he very easily
could have been out out of the NFL. I mean,
how many stories are like that that end like that?
You know, Coach Coughlin says in the show, He's been
through these conversations a hundred times. But you know he

(33:57):
he connected with Coach Coughlin. He showed contrition and he
turned his life around, and starting in two thousand four,
he developed into one of the best special teams players
in the league. He made a Pro Bowl as a
special teams player. So everyone who said that, you know
David Tyree, who's this guy who made this great play? Well,
I mean he was a Pro Bowler. Yeah. Well, I

(34:18):
want to say, Paul, do you're you're a Giant fan.
I'm a Giant fan. Do you remember him at all? No?
Before he hit it big in the Super Bowl. I
mean I remember his name, and we watched football every week.
We watched the Giants religiously, and I mean I remember
his name, but I don't remember him being I remember
Renee Thompson in the early nineties being as more of

(34:40):
a special team standout than him number twenty one. I
think this is more a commentary on the quality of
giant fans I'm sitting with than it is David Tyree
the football player. I mean, any Steelers fan would would
be fully aware of who the special team's aces were
in two thousand four, and give me a break, the
Tyree equivalent in Pittsburgh course, Uh no, I don't remember him.

(35:02):
To answer your question, well, even when we watched the show,
I remember there's a you have a clip of him
in practice. He had a different number at the time. Yeah,
I found that it was we were doing Hey Rookie
in two thousand three. I don't even remember you remember
who we were following Hey Rookie, being a show we
produced annually for ESPN where we follow several rookies through

(35:23):
the draft process and in the training camp at that time.
So you know, I'm going through this footage trying to
see if there's a glimpse of two Rookie era, two
thousand three era David Tyree, and and there he is,
um looking kind of out of it and in a
different number, So I thought that was kind of neat.
We were following around, so that that's where that shot

(35:45):
came from, the moment where he's describing smelling like alcohol,
sweating out the booz and there. So, yeah, he's at
practice and there's like in the distance, there's a huddle
break and he's just sort of meandering around, looking kind
of half day east, and you know, it's a nice
shot to pair with him saying, you know, he's late

(36:06):
to practice, he's smelling like brewery. So getting back to
the making of the film though, as we wrap things up,
one of the neat tricks he pulled off. You're making
a film ultimately about David Tyree, but you were able
to get some serious star power into it. We try
to get more, but you know, not everybody wants to

(36:27):
talk negative about, you know, a play that they can't
The Patriots aren't quite ready yet, so you were always
going to make it a giant centric film, but you
found a way creatively to tell the story of this
guy in this play but also include Eli, stray Hand
and Coughlin, who are sort of the constellation of stars
around which that that championship was built. How did you

(36:50):
arrive at that determination, what was the strategy and and
are you happy with how it landed? Yeah, I think
we're really happy. When we were talking about it last spring,
when when we started hashing things out, we knew that
Tyree couldn't carry you know, Norman's tuning in to watch
the David Tyree sh I mean, this is an important
calculation in our business. Serious ambition is to explore your

(37:14):
play in the moment in time. And that's not a
biographical it's not right. So you know, first and foremost
we wanted to dive deep as far as we could
on the play itself. But the more that we from
every angle that we looked at it, we said, David
Tyree is the central you know, he's the man who

(37:34):
made this catch. He sort of came like a bolt
out of the blue to the world. Nobody knewho he was,
and we figured that since he doesn't have this star
power draw why not let the people who were impacted
the most by this play on the Giants, Eli Manning.
You know, he constantly lived in the shadow of his
brother Tom Coffin was about to be fired from that team.

(37:56):
If you know, as all of us Giant fans remember,
and Michael straight and he almost retired before that season.
So in the end, this guy that nobody knows about
has this huge impact on three big figures on that team,
and we said, if we can land him as interview subjects,
let's do it, and let's get them together and let

(38:20):
them let them talk it over. We thought that would
be a different twist, you know, rather than just setting
them down individually. We figured, hey, once we got David
on board. In the beginning, we didn't know exactly what
we were going to do with him. We just said,
we've got plans for you. Would you be willing to be,
you know, a participant, And when he gave us the

(38:40):
green light, then we had the freedom to to explore
a little bit and and experiment and do what we
wanted to do, and it ended up being, you know,
sitting him down with those three big figures. I think
it also helps when you're making one of these films
and you're approaching Eli Manning and Michael Strahan for the
five time to talk about the helmet catch, to say no,

(39:02):
we're not just gonna come by and interview you for
half an hour. We're gonna bring David Tyree to you
and you're gonna sit with him, and you know, Eli,
you're gonna watch the coach's tape with them and break
it down. I think those three stars they would have
done the show if it had been a standard talking
head documentary. You know, it's the tenth anniversary of the

(39:25):
helmet catch. I think they would have sat down. But
when you bring David Tyree into the mix, a person
that I think it shows up in the show. Each
of these three stars have a genuine love for then
that opens up a whole new world of It brings out,
It brings out there a truer self from all these stars.

(39:48):
You can tell how much Michael Strahan loves you know,
David Tyree is one of his boys. You can tell
the almost fatherly relationship between David Tyree and Coach Coughlin,
and um, you know Eli Manning. I mean, you don't
get a chance to break down film or or joke
around with Eli Manning all that often, and he's doing
that in this show. So I think David Tyree and

(40:11):
the genuine love that all of our three stars have
for him really unlocked a world of possibilities for this film. Yeah,
it's great, it's great. To see stars in a different
light and to give them an opportunity to put a
different side of themselves on display than just you know,
an interview where they're gonna be asked some questions and

(40:32):
they're gonna get here. They get a chance to interact
with someone they really care about, and it comes through.
Ryan and I were saying after we did the Coughlin
shoot that was late summer, early early September, I said,
I haven't seen Coughlin smile that much in my private ever,
you know, because he's so serious. I mean, but after
that interview, I said, who is this guy so comfortable

(40:55):
with David Tyree? He's smiling, he's joking, he's relaxed, and
he this was I mean, you know, obviously he's the
head of the Jackson Jacksonville Jaguars now, so he spends
most of his time in Florida, which made it a
real challenge to put this shoot together. So he you know,
every September he comes up for the Jay Fund, his
charity annual event, and he took time out of his

(41:18):
day on the day of the main event, the charity event,
to come do this with David. And that's how much
he cares about David that he on this day of
all days where he flies, he's flying into New York
to do his huge charity event, He's spending time with
David Tyree to to do this interview. I mean that
says a lot about how he feels about David Tyree.

(41:42):
Last point I have. Endings are are hard. Whether you're
gonna write a great line you'll find that perfect interview bite,
whether you're going to come up with something really, really unusual. Um.
I thought the ending of this film, the last bite
by Tyree was perfect because it's exactly what just what

(42:03):
we had, just the journey we had just been on
led us to to that understanding that that then he
articulates perfectly. Let's listen to that. It wasn't about me,
and I don't think it ever was. It was all
about a very personal encounter that I've been living with God,
and it revealed itself on on on the NFL's greatest stage.

(42:26):
I think that makes so glorious and I had the
joy of telling that story for the rest of my life.
That bite captures exactly what that hour of television is
about and one but it's perfect. Did you know when
you heard him say that. That's that's the ending. How
did you arrive at that? His interview, sit down interview?

(42:46):
It was supposed to be what an hour hour and
fifteen maybe an hour and a half, and it went
three hours. Yeah, it was almost like three hours. So
we couldn't believe the stuff we were getting. And we
went into it. We said, this is sort of a confession,
all this is your one chance to sit down. You're
in the spotlight. Just spill your guts. And and he did.

(43:07):
And he's he's a very good speaker. You can tell that.
He he goes around and it's such a spiritual guy.
He shares his faith with other people. That's his job.
He helps people. And I'm not saying he was like
a preacher, but there were times where he was speaking
and I felt like almost like he was delivering a
sermon in a way. But I don't know. That's that's

(43:29):
how I felt as as the interview was going. I
don't know what you what you sensed, Ryan, But if
there's such a thing, it wasn't a preachy sermon, right, Yeah,
it's just it's David Tyree. He's like, you know, he's religious,
but he's not in your face turn off, you know
what I mean, And it's it's because that's who he is,
as we've been saying this whole time, and it's not

(43:50):
a turn off. And but yeah, I think we sensed
that was towards the end of the interview and it
was like, wow, that's you know, he gets it. He
gets the whole story, and he's not ashamed of it,
like you said when we were talking him on the phone,
and you know, it is what it is, and and
that's what I believe. So yeah, to answer your question, yes,

(44:13):
when he said that, I had a pretty good idea
in the back of my mind that yeah, that would
be a good way to end the film. He brought
us home. I mean, like that bite brings us home.
It was funny. We were recording the narration for this
show with NFL Films favorite narrator Morgan Spector, and we
got to the end of the script and it's like
a very sort of you know, it's not an ending

(44:34):
line of script. I don't remember the line of script,
but it's a very sort of mundane line of script.
And I was like, really, that that's it. That's the
end of the show. And it's because David Tyree just
knew how to he knew how to land the plane. Basically, Yeah,
that's nice when they do that. For Yes, you have
the central character. He makes this incredible thing happen. He

(44:55):
also happens to be extremely sincere and candid. It's kind
of like, just get out of the way. Yeah, basically,
that's what And he's under and he's gone on this
incredible personal journey that has landed him at a place
where he's able to not only tell the story of
of his life and everything that happened to him, but
he's got big pictures perspective on it, like the idea

(45:17):
that you know, I have the joy of telling this
story for the rest of my life, which is exactly
what you just did over the last hour. There's just
something like an acknowledgement that this is going to go
on and on and he's going to do it for
the next fifty years and it's never going to stop
being great. He he appreciates to his core that he

(45:37):
got to do that and what it meant for his
life and what the opportunities are that it gave him. Yeah,
and I and he also you know, he's he says
that that that play doesn't define who he is. He's
I've gone on to do other things in my life.
It's I'm appreciative, and I sit back and I I
like the adulation. I like when people bring it up.
I don't mind it. It's just it's just another piece

(46:00):
of his story that you know, that's still being written
as as we speak. But but it's always going to
be there. I don't know how you deal with that
as a I don't know how I would deal with that.
If I can think about, imagine being a person who
had a moment that is so trans that could ruin
you for the rest of your life, you're like that,

(46:21):
you can say to yourself, that's it. I'm never getting
better than that. I mean. But now he is literally
the guy on the New York in the New York
Giants organization whose job it is to work with players
and help them these young year old guys who, as
he said, are often broken, just trying to figure out
how to live in the world. And now he's the

(46:42):
guy who works with them. It's an incredible story. It's
an incredible an incredible journey for for a guy who
gave us one of the truly great moments in the
history of football and American sports. It was great. I
was there, It was great. I mean, were there? What
was that? Like? You know, do you even realize what
the heck was going on? So you know, it's interesting,

(47:04):
and you know, I tried to figure out a way
to put this perspective in the film, and you know,
it's I don't think it's something that a lot of
people are interested talking about, but it's very much a
play for TV. So like I was in the sort
of front front half of the upper deck and the
helmet catch was coming towards me, and it happened so
fast and it was so far away, and like what happened? Like,

(47:26):
did did Rodney intercept it? Obviously they're going to replay this,
and you know, neither of those things happened, So it
was almost like and and you know, the action of
the game just kept going. So the goose bumps moment
in the stands was plexy Cooper's game winning touchdown. You know,
especially you know as a Giants fan, I don't I'd

(47:48):
always watched Eli have trouble throwing a fade like that,
and so Eli drops back and you can tell because
he kind of stops and you can tell he's going
to throw a fade, and you could feel everyone's head
in the stadium just sort of like go from left
to right almost, you know, like like rubber necking or something.
And plexico Berus is standing there in the end zone.

(48:09):
I'm still getting goose bumps talking about this. Plexico Berus
is alone in the end zone. He catches the ball
for the go ahead touchdown in the super Bowl, and
the place erupts. And I'm sorry, I don't want to
make this about my personal Super Bowl recollection, but like
the stadium erupts and as it quiets down, like the
Patriots fans have literally disappeared. Like we sat next to

(48:32):
a Patriots fan who, like, as the game wasn't going
the way they thought it would, started channing bad things
about the Yankees, and like I think I we looked
to our we looked to our right all of a
sudden and like they had just disappeared, so like they
had they had fled the scene of the crime. And
it was just it was just the most amazing night.

(48:52):
So it's almost my question. We sometimes we talked to
players and we asked them, and they're playing the game,
so not only do they have to keep going but
they don't have the image that we have, whether it's
on TV or whatever from the stands, so they don't
see the play until much later. When did you first
see the helmet catch play? I mean, did you see
it later that night? Was it hours later? It was
a ten minutes after the game, and like, could you
even you just won the Super Bowl and then here

(49:14):
was this like other reveal that that you didn't even
know had gone on. I feel like I was vaguely
aware that he caught it with his helmet, but I
don't remember the first time. You know, we got back
to our hotel room really late. Just like David Tyree,
you know, he says this, I don't think it made
the film, but he says, you know, it wasn't until
much later that he saw the highlights. And you know,

(49:34):
I think we got to our hotel room late. We
went to in and out Burger after the game, as
you finally got out of the the University of Phoenix
um parking lot, animal style. They these poor these poor
kids were overwhelmed, though. I don't think they expected the
post Super Bowl crush. So we got in and out,
went back to our hotel in Scottsdale, and I think

(49:57):
I watched highlights and fell asleep and we had to
get up for an early flight the next day. It's
like winning the game twice, so wait, wait, getting winning
the game and getting in an outburger three times. You
didn't do an animal style so he didn't. Wait wait,
because here's what I'm thinking about listening to your story.
You might have been the first person who has ever

(50:19):
justified or contextualized Joe Bucks famously on emotional call. Because yeah,
first of all, let's listen to Joe Bucks call. Pressure
from Thomas off the edge. Lie Manning stays on his feet,

(50:39):
airs it out down the field. It is caught by
Thayree inside the and a time out. Take care. Okay,
so that call actually does not appear in the film.
You used every other radio call, you didn't use the

(51:01):
Buck call. Well, here's the interesting story. We tried to
get Buck two. We were going to give him a
redo as part of the show. This was back why
like in April May, and we said, all right, to
the folks that make the connections to book our interviews,
we want to give him a second chance to read,

(51:22):
you know, read you the player. We're gonna give him
a monitor and pcrophone and we're gonna we're gonna have
him redo it a second chance, but he declined. We
thought he might do it, because you know, he does
have a sense of humor, you know. But but the
way you describe it, Ryan is that he in the
stadium itself. It went It happened so quickly, and you

(51:43):
didn't know what happened. It was so hard to tell
if he actually caught the ball. That that's why Buck
Buck was so flat on the call. And I have
remember thinking like, he's is he trying to do summer all, Like,
what's he doing? That's nobody uses it. Yeah, it's it's
a it's a it's homously weird call it. In doing
the research for our pitch to Joe, we found an interview.

(52:05):
I mean, he's talked about it in the past and
he said, well, listen, it happened so fast. We couldn't
tell if it was a good catch or not. I'm
not you know, I don't want to put words in
Joe Buck's mouth. He said he didn't want to go
over the top in case you know, that play gets
called back. It wasn't good anything like that, because that's
worse if you. If you call that the greatest play

(52:27):
in Super Bowl history and it turns out it gets
called back like that, that's worse probably than what he did.
So I want to defend Joe buck Well. Here's why,
because I remember, although you say it was a play
for TV and it, I could understand, yes, more than
being in the stands. I kind of remember. To contrast,

(52:48):
when Diggs caught the Minneapolis miracle, I was screaming immediately
because it's the clarity of it. But I don't think
the helmet catch was that clear. Even at home. It
was still in the middle of the drive. It wasn't
a touchdown, and they had to kind of run down
the field. The clock was still taking down. There still
was a lot going on. I'm sure they showed a replay.
I'm sure I saw it, but they hadn't won the

(53:08):
game yet. They were still losing. So maybe it was
a part of me that was going it doesn't mean
anything until they win the game. But I don't remember.
I don't remember leaping in and going nuts. But here's
what gives the lie of that. We heard the other
three calls. Was it Papa Marv Albert. I think that
the the Westwood one version, and then and then the

(53:30):
Patriots guy at that point, the older Gil Santos and
Gino Cappelletti. Yes, yeah, so those three calls were all
all rose to the occasion a little bit more than
Bucks did. Even though, but but, but, as Ryan has described,
maybe history should give Buck a little bit of a

(53:51):
pass on this one because it is an odd play
that you do have to watch again to realize the
multiple layers of insanity that led to the catch. I
mean it, just the first half of the play itself
with Eli eluding three or four sacks is an incredible
moment franco esque, would you say, because how does it

(54:12):
compare to the immaculate reception? Let's get right down to it.
This isn't Paul, this is a giant show. We're not
gonna we're gonna stay away from the ruiney end of
the spectrum. We're we're going thirty feet now, NFL history,
I I would still put uh the immaculate. Well, it's
hard because you almost needed a separate category for Super

(54:32):
Bowl plays. It's not fair to put the Super Bowl
plays in the same category. But you know, as far
as the catch and the immaculate reception, the Music City Miracle,
now the Minneapolis Miracle. Those plays all end in touchdowns.
This play is not a touchdown, which is a very

(54:52):
interesting caveat. It doesn't there is not a finality about it.
As Ryan said, if you're in the adium, it doesn't
now one year later. Now if we want to go
to if we want to stay in the super Bowl category,
I will, I will give you one year later. The

(55:13):
James Harrison interception return, I think you're going to Santonio
to plays in that Harrison is crazier than the Santonio play.
It was incredible. The James Harrison play. I think bar
none is the greatest play in Super Bowl history. It
is the It is a like a three act play

(55:34):
in and of itself. And the tension of the clock
has run out. Is this guy going to complete this
hundred yard dash through a hundred bodies and get to
the ends on to get a legal block? Though the
guy on the Steeler step down of bounds? Remember I
remember actually cut there's no illegal block, Lamar Woodley, the

(55:56):
Cardinals player turned his back. You can't have illegal block
when the guy turns his back. It's it's not a
legal blocks. It was a beautifully beautifully executed interception return,
the greatest play in Super Bowl history. I'm not sure
Steve right the Giants never held on the It was
a clutch as shan, But I think as history goes on,

(56:20):
the Harrison play probably gets the edge because it's just
such a unique and ridiculous play. So as we sit
here today and this this this pod will premiere, you
might listen to it before Super Bowl fifty two, you
might listen to it after Super Bowl fifty two. But
in Super Bowl fifty two, James Harrison is going to

(56:45):
be wearing the new England Patriots uniform. And I am
almost certain that he is going to be heard from
in that football game, because he is always heard from
when he takes the field. He's had a pretty good playoffs, right,
he had the key sack on third down in the
ANFC Championship game against Jacksonville on the final drive. It's

(57:07):
a pretty good player. He's a pretty good guy in Pittsburgh,
but he's making plays in England. Could have helped This
could help the Steelers in that game when they gave
up forty five and and and and didn't sack Black
Portals at all. I could have helped a little just
from a greatness of the game standpoint. He's a good
he When he's in the game, it makes everything better.
I think James Harrison is there not for Steelers fans. Ryan,

(57:35):
I'm sorry, but it's a tough couple of weeks for
Giants fans too. I agree with the principal having James
Harrison in this whole, in this thing makes it adds
a nice extra ingredient and and a little element of
potential chaos that nobody want. Royal. If there's an all

(57:56):
time NFL battle, Royal, James Harrison might be the face.
He might win it, he could take it. He might be.
But I mean, like Bucket is, there's like probably five
guys Jim Brown, like James Harrison is heading into the
ring as as one of probably the five favorites. If
you have a NFL Royal rumble of all the players

(58:19):
in the history of of the NFL. He was in
that article that that profile of him opened with him
like tossing a rattlesnake over his backyard fence, right like that,
like Royal rumbles got it. That's easy. In comparison, well,
who would top five, top five? What is it n

(58:40):
top of the head. Alright, so I've already gone to
I'm gonna go buck I'm putting Buckets and Jim Brown
in my in my top five, those are the two
bad bad bad man Concrete, Charlie Interesting, Yeah, I'm going Charlie.
Oh really angry lt How about Reggie White, who's beating

(59:04):
up Reggie White singletary. No, it doesn't make my top five.
No Singletary. He's like a fringe guy. He's got the eyes,
but I'm not sure he's stacking on. He's like the manager.
He doesn't like this kind of party. No Gronk, No, No,
he's not tough at all. Jack Tatum, Yeah, would you

(59:27):
Ronnie lot Ny lot you'd lose his finger get back
in the ring. All right. On that note, we are
going to move to part two of the mega podcast.
Let's cleanse the palate with with a nice piece of music,
and then we will bring in the gambler. Ken Rogers,

(59:49):
the director and producer of our other Giants related epic
new documentary The Two Bills, The New thirty for thirty,
premiering on ESPN Super Bowl Week. Guys, congratulations on the helmet.
Catch everybody check it out. If you missed the premiere,
it'll be on demand, it'll be all over. I'm sure

(01:00:12):
we'll replay it a million times. But tremendous work, guys.
You really you made the helmet catch into into a
really memorable story about a special guy in David Tyree.
Thanks guys, thanks for having us. It was fun. Thank you.

(01:00:38):
All Right, folks, go tell off if you're finishing up
on the treadmill, We're not done. We're not done by
a long shot. And the super Double Decker episode of
the NFL Films Podcast, We've got a treat for you.
Now we have the great Ken Rogers. Hello, welcome to

(01:01:00):
the show. Ken the Gambler making his first appearance on
the NFL Films Podcast. When to hold Him? Can we
start there because I've never asked him this question? Uh,
when did you become conscious that there was another Ken
Rogers and that he was the Gambler? And then sub question,
when did you become the sub gambler? Or maybe at

(01:01:21):
this point you're he's the sub gambler? Yeah, very early
in childhood. The real gambler, Kenny Rodgers was pretty popular
when I was a kid. So I was born in Uh,
seventy four, so he was really pretty big. So I
got it all the time as a kid, but I
was you know, it was spelled differently. Mine's r O

(01:01:41):
D g um. Mr. Rogers neighborhood was big because my
father was a realtor, so Mr. Rogers Neighborhood. He used
to joke that was going to be his reality company.
And then I got here to NFL Films and it
was my very first shoot. And Neil Zender, who has
that everyone has a nickname. That's just sort of one

(01:02:03):
of his many quirks as a producer. Here we were
on the way to the White House of all places
to shoot the Ravens so celebrating their Super Bowl victory.
He said, what's your name? I said, Kenny Rogers. He said, no,
you're the Gambler, and that was it. That was the Gambler,
which made sense, of course. And around these halls, that's

(01:02:26):
what they call me, And around these halls if you
have never heard of this Ken Rogers. Ken is the
showrunner of Hard Knocks since two thousand seven. He is
the showrunner with Paul on the timeline. He is the
director of each of the three thirty for thirties that

(01:02:51):
NFL Films has produced for ESPN that would be l
Way to Marino, The Four Falls of Buffalo and Ken's
latest and possibly his masterpiece, The Two Bills. He also
did before we get to that, though, and that's what
we're going to talk about today. He also did the

(01:03:11):
premier and most famous episode of A Football Life. UH
spent a season to two thousand nine season with Bill
Belichick embedded with the Patriots, and that became the two
part seminal pilot episode of A Football Life. So Ken
Kens IMDb page. Yeah, you just got his his bio.

(01:03:35):
Ken is somebody that Paul and I have worked with
as closely as anyone here at NFL Films for a
very long time, and obviously someone who's very influential and
was someone who is maybe closer to Steve Sable than
anybody here among the producers Kenna, Chris Barlow. So so
Ken is uh a huge figure at NFL Films and

(01:03:57):
we're we're psyched to have him. The Two Bills. When
is the premier PAULI February onet, nine pm Eastern on ESPN. Again,
you'll see the thirty for thirty branding, But the Two
Bills is the name of the show, directed by our
own Ken Rogers, and the place I'd like to start
if I could cause and having just seen the cut

(01:04:18):
in preparation for this podcast, Like any creative work, at
least in my opinion, there's a simplicity. When I first
watched The Two Bills, I'm like, this is in some
ways very simple. It's two guys, they're sitting at a table.
It's it's basically the story of their relationship. But of course,
like also like all great works of art or anything

(01:04:38):
that's created, it's way more complicated than that. And so
we're gonna talk about the content and the story, but
also there's there's there's not really a simple road that
got to this show being produced. So we wanted to
kind of start with the backstory of of how we
ended up with The Two Bills and just context, just
in case we haven't made it clearer. This is a

(01:04:58):
film about the rel relationship of Bill Parcels and Bill Belichick,
which start there. I mean when you say simple yet complicated,
that's that's everything about the film in its final process
or in its final um, what it looks like to viewers.

(01:05:20):
It's how the process of making the film was it's
what the shoot was like, it's what their relationship is.
I mean, when I think of their relationship, it's very simple.
They worked together for fifteen years, their co workers, and
it's also very, very complicated. So everyone wants to know, like, well,

(01:05:44):
what what's their relationship like? And I asked Coach Belichick
that the very first time I brought up this film,
you know, I forget what I was in Foxborough for.
I was in interviewing him for some reason, and I said, Coach,
we should do a piece on you and Coach Parcels
And I asked him, he said, sure, yeah, I do that.

(01:06:07):
It was pretty quick. People. Everyone asked me, how hard
was it to get him to agree? He said yes immediately,
because he appreciates the history and wants to pay homage
to those who helped them. And I said, well, let
me ask you what's your relationship with him? Like? Were
you friends? Was he like a big brother to you?
Were your co workers? And he looked at me and said,

(01:06:30):
I don't think he and I could tell you what
our relationship is. And that right there, for me was
the film from the very start, like, look, these two
guys can't define their relationship and in many ways from
the start, I thought about you two guys, and we've
talked about this a little bit. But so we're all
co workers, like Belichick and Parcels. I consider you guys friends,

(01:06:56):
but we're also a little bit of competitors, and that
we push each other to to make better films than
each other, to be partners together on different films, and
to push each other as partners. But yet, you know,
we don't hang out outside of work a lot. You know,

(01:07:18):
we don't go on vacations together. But at the same time,
I think I know more about you guys, and you
guys know more about me than a lot of my
friends that quote friends that I've spent my childhood with,
and I'll know about me now on a daily basis.
So in many ways, I'm closer to you. Uh. Do
I love you guys? Yeah? Do we tell each other

(01:07:40):
we love each other very often? No, And that's like
Parcels and Belichick, I think everyone has. When you work
with people closely, especially in stressful environments like filmmaking or
like football, you have these relationships that are they're closer
than friendships, they're closer than family sometimes, and that's what

(01:08:01):
Belichick and Parcels have. It's very simple, but it's also
very complicated. Uh. And that's where the whole film came from,
was this realization when Belichick said, I don't think I
could define our relationship. I said, oh, I just want
you to to sit down then and witness this. I
want you to just sit there and we'll be at

(01:08:24):
the table, and I want to see you too work
this out together. You don't just call Bill Belichick and
build Parcels and say, hey, guys, let's meet in the
locker room at Giant Stadium on Sunday and we'll have
a chat. I'll bring a couple of cameras and a table.
You guys can sit there and then moment we'll see
what happens. This happens because of many years of relationship building,

(01:08:47):
trust building, and so you know, the aforementioned two episodes
of Football Life with Belichick happened after many years. Why
don't you just take us back and give us a
thumbnail of how you could even get to the point
where you could say to Bill Belichick, we should do
something about you and Parcels. Yeah, the story started with
you already like in his office chatting with him. Yeah,

(01:09:08):
And not, which which not many people do. Uh. You know,
it goes back to Steve Sable, of course. You know,
I think Sable and Belichick had a relationship that started
back in the seventies when they were both you know,
hanging out on sidelines. They sat next together at owners
meetings every year, and they were both sort of the

(01:09:31):
outsiders who worked in the NFL but saw things in
this pure artistic sports purity way. You know, Belichick only
cared about winning football. Stable only cared about making great films.
They hated the political side of the league. They didn't

(01:09:53):
want to get involved in meetings and votes and marketing
and all that stuff. They just wanted to a work
at the very highest level in our art form x's
nose coaching and filmmaking. So they saw really I think
um kinship between each other. Uh, and it stayed that

(01:10:15):
way forever. But you know, Coach Belichick wasn't always Coach Belichick.
So when I arrived here at NFL Films and no
one I was, you know, the low man on the
totem pole, and our boss at the time, Jim Jordan's
assigned me to a highlight film which all producers are

(01:10:36):
assigned to on a yearly basis to follow a team
and you know, make their highlight film for the year.
And since I was a low man on the totem pole,
he gave me a team that was expected to be
the worst team in the league that year, the two
thousand and one New England Patriots. So you know, I
was bombed. I was like, one Patriots, this is going

(01:10:58):
to be terrible. Uh. And I still remember I watched
the first first game I ever watched UM as a
New England Patriot sort of producer. UM. I said, well,
at least they have a good quarterback, Drew Bledsoe. And
then Drew bledso gets hit by Mo Lewis and he
goes down and this kid, Tom Brady comes in, and

(01:11:20):
I'm thinking, oh my god, I have the worst team.
You know I got Now now I don't even have
a quarterback. I got Tom Brady. Who's that? Uh? And
the rest is history. So you know, I started following
them as their highlight producer and going up and interviewing
Coach Belichick and informing a relationship with him in the
football staff. Uh. And through spending a lot of time

(01:11:42):
with Steve and Coach Belichick together, I sort of saw
their relationship and became a proxy I think for NFL
films in many way and in many ways and sort
of took on the role of Steve once Steve passed away,
certainly in the eyes of Coach Belichick, is as the

(01:12:03):
future of NFL films, and like, we're here even though
Steve's gone, and we still believe in the same things.
We still believe in the purity of the filmmaking and
we're not going to get wrapped up in the politics
and stuff. We just want to make a great film
about you and who cares about the other stuff. And

(01:12:24):
you know, when when we pitched a Football Life on him,
it was purely, look, you're you're going to go down
as an incredible coach. We want to see what it
what it's like to be on the sideline with you
for an entire season. Let's do it. And he agreed
pretty quickly. Uh. And he agreed pretty quickly to this
because he understands that this is part of his story

(01:12:46):
and he wanted to pay homage to Parcel. So I,
you know, I I locked into it. I looked into
this whole relationship with the with the Patriots and Coach
Belichick and I thought it would end around oh four.
I remember, you know, four after they won their third
Super Bowl, and you know, oh five, they didn't, they

(01:13:07):
didn't go back. I was thinking, well, man, I got lucky.
I got a team that won three Super Bowls. You
know how not many people get to follow a team
that win three Super Bowls? And you know, now I'll
move on and you know, my career, I'll go wherever
it goes, and I'll follow whoever I follow, and you know,
onto the next chapter of my football producing career. And

(01:13:30):
you know, fourteen years later, I'm still following Bill Belichick
and the Patriots. We're all still telling the same dank star.
I can't get away from him, and it's okay, and
it just keeps getting better. And you know, it's such
deja vu for me because an O four, you know,
I went to the Super Bowl to watch the Patriots
play the Eagles, and I'm thinking to myself, having grown

(01:13:53):
up here outside of Philadelphia and been an Eagles fan,
I'm like, man, I I can't not cheer for the
Eagles because I I'm sort of an Eagles fan. But
man I, I can't imagine Belichick not winning. And here
I am thirteen years later, and I'm going back to
the Super Bowl to watch Belichick coach against the Eagles,
and I'm thinking, man, I really wish the Eagles could

(01:14:15):
win a super Bowl, But I can't imagine Belichick losing
the Super Bowl against the Eagles. And and he's trying
to win his third in four years with two coordinators
who are about to leave. This dynasty is like a
cosmic force that just goes around the sun and comes
back like a Hailey's comments come back around. It's in
its second revolution around the So it's so thirteen years

(01:14:35):
from now, I'm going to be, you know, at the
Super Bowl. I think I'm in some sort of twilight zone.
It's it's unreal, but among it's it's proven to be
an incredibly fruitful relationship, not just for your career, not
just for Bill Belichick. To have someone of your caliber
be able to document his career the way you have,

(01:14:59):
it's been great for NF Films. We've gotten so much
unbelievable content out of it, and got so much content
that we've been able to share with the world so
that football fans have been able to get a glimpse
into this really mysterious persona as even while he's been coaching,
which is has been a gift because and it was
the same with Lombardi had a great relationship with the

(01:15:20):
Sables and allowed them to to shoot the nineteen sixty
seven season, his last season with the Packers because he
trusted the Sables. And you know, like you said, this
all started with Steve and we've been fortunate enough to
be able to document Belichick's career as it has unfolded.
And can calls it luck, but he really um doesn't
give himself adequate credit. I mean luck in this case

(01:15:41):
is the residue of design, of of work, of effort,
of not just coming up with ideas and pitching shows
and producing them, but just being there as a representative,
like you said, as a proxy of films UH to
tell these stories. And I think the rest of us
have benefited from it. I know other producers have I
think seen that as an ample and said, you know what,

(01:16:01):
I need to have a good relationship with this pr
director or this team or this coach if I have
the opportunity to a shoot with him, because that's how
when you do come up with an idea or one
of your colleagues here comes up with an idea and
that the hardest part is making that phone call. Were
that much further ahead. So I think it's been an
advantage for all of us to sort of benefit from
seeing that unfold. Yeah, the way this business works is

(01:16:21):
like all businesses, we don't get to just call up
teams and say we're going to do a documentary about you,
and we're gonna need all access it it. It's built
through years of trust and teams understanding what we're trying
to accomplish and and and being willing to give us
give us the keys to the kingdom. What you just

(01:16:42):
said that Lombardi didn't do it for NFL Films. He
did it for the Sables, you know. And I don't
think necessarily Coach Belichick says yes to NFL films. You know,
he said yes to Steve Sable, and I think he
says yes to me because he trusts trust me as
a representative of NFL films. Now, in this instance, you

(01:17:04):
did not have the personal relationship with Bill Parcels that
you have with Belichick. So how how did he respond
to the initial ass You know, he was very deferring
to Coach Belichick. Um, what's funny is they're both very
respectful of the other one. Um, and it showed very

(01:17:26):
much so in the ask on Parcel's side, when we
approach coach Parcels, his response was very much, if coach
Belichick wants to do it, I'll do it. But I'm
not gonna ask Coach Belichick to do it on my behalf,
Like I'll do whatever Bill wants to do. It's hard

(01:17:46):
to say Bill, because they're both Bills. You start telling
stories and gets all mixed up. But Parcel said, look,
if Belichick wants to do it, I'll do it, But
if he doesn't want to do it, you're not getting
made to help convince him, Like I'm not going to
be part of it. Um. So he he he played
second fiddle very willingly and said, look, Belichick's the bigger name.

(01:18:11):
Not and not. He didn't say this, but in his
actions he was like, look, Belichick's the bigger name. If
if he wants to do it, I'll do it. And
that was that was kind of surprising to me. And
then in the actual interview, it was surprising that Belichick
really showed a deference to Parcels and was like, no,

(01:18:32):
I you know, I learned everything from Parcels and and
he almost took this position that well, no, I'm not
the greatest coach of all time. I Bill was my boss,
and you know, I learned the big picture from Bill,
and I owe everything to Bill. And I was like, well, God,
these guys both really respect each other. And I was
shocked by that. Two things I'd like to listen to.

(01:18:55):
The marketing of the film, we created a trailer the
editor You're You're partner editing Emily Lightner right produced this
trailer that ends with the idea that these two are
going to sit down here. Let's listen to the trailer.
He's a guy I can talk to him, and he's
always been more than than Cannon with men you learned

(01:19:15):
for the hurry up. He's a very exciting person to
work with. Well, Bill, give a chill again, Bill, give
it to Bill, and Bill learned from one another day.
Both knew their stuff, but Tell accomplished something but better.
People love that Belichick should have been a next head coach.

(01:19:39):
You know you should have worked that out. Bill Belichick
was named assistant coach with New England. The move reunites
Belichick with Bill Parselves just blew my mind to be honest,
that Bill had taken this job with the Jets. There
were crazy things, but the Jets on the way in
and on the way out there was crazy again. I'm
stepping down Bill Belichick immediately of sence to the head

(01:20:01):
coach of the Jets to resign as at because in
the New York Jets, the thing you gotta know is
this family is dysfunctional. Like you don't get them together
together in the same room. Everyone, right, the Bill is
ready again. That's cool to end a trailer at the beginning. Yeah,

(01:20:30):
that was not you know that that was like, that's
a great example of sometimes you figure things out while
you're editing it. You guys didn't sit down and say, oh,
here's here's what we should do. Right. No, that that's
all Emily Lightner. You know. That was one of those
things I said, you know, the trailer um. You know,
I was busy in the big picture sort of trying

(01:20:51):
to figure out the film in which direction the film
was going to go um and still still doing interviews
and deal only with political stuff and and just big
picture stuff with the film. And I said, Emily, why
don't you take a crack at the trailer. You know,
it's due months and months before the film is due.
And I expected what I would have started with, which

(01:21:14):
is this big get of we got Parcels and Belichick
to sit together. Make the whole trailer about them sitting
there together, and show the best parts of them talking together,
and let's show the show the juice of of what
we got. She did the exact opposite and teased that

(01:21:34):
the fact that we got them together. Uh, And it
worked brilliantly. And the first time I saw it, I thought,
oh my god, that is that's a teaser. That's a
trail that makes me want to watch the film more
than giving away what the film is. Uh, it was brilliant.
The other thing you you hit on right away in

(01:21:55):
the first five minutes of the film before the title sequence,
is what you what you talked about earlier? What is
their relationship? And this is done as they're driving in
to Two Giants Stadium, and I want to listen to
a little bit of that as you actually ask Bill Belichick,

(01:22:16):
what is what is this relationship? What do you consider him?
You know, friend, competitor, enemy competitor. So that's you in

(01:22:37):
the car asking the questions of Belichick. That's me in
the car with Belichick. UH, and Paul was in the
car with Parcels. So here's there as an additional director
that day. Good good, good job by Paul asking Parcels
the same questions we went over ahead of time what
to ask them, because I wanted to set the tone

(01:22:58):
ahead of time, this mystery of what the what the
relationship was, so I wanted I was hoping they would
answer the way they did, which is not really conclusively, like,
I'm not sure what the relationship is. Paul, how was
Parcels on that ride? Uh? He was. It's kind of

(01:23:21):
like what Ken was saying. I don't want to use
the word hemming and hawing, but he sort of was
didn't want to be terribly decisive. He actually he kind
of you know how he dealt with it. He kind
of started giving me facts about how they met, sort
of the chronology of knowing UH. Coach Belichick's father, Steve Belichick,
who was a coach and scout at the Naval Academy
for so long. UH, and he sort of started going

(01:23:42):
through the chronology of that and then didn't really get
terribly emotional or reflective. I feel like every time by
my memory, when I tried to get him to sort
of probe him, he didn't. He didn't take the bait um.
And I think over the years, I mean, the famous
Parcels bites are the demonstrations of his passion, but I
think becauses, you know, having watched Parcels closely over the years,

(01:24:04):
I feel like I've seen him evolved to the point
where he knows how to sort of speak with body
language and with nonwords and pauses and won't give you.
There's even a point where he answered one of your
questions where he says to you in the film, well,
I'm not going to use the word you use. Like
he's very careful in how he speaks, and Belichick in
the car was like he has in press conferences. I mean,

(01:24:26):
he was. I asked him a question and it was
it was a tough question to ask, what did you
consider him an enemy? And instead of saying no, I
didn't consider him an enemy, you know, great to say it.
He he just answered it in a way that's it

(01:24:50):
says everything, which is kind of I mean, it's like
he said kind of but I'm not going to tell
you it, you know, like yeah, kind of there's that
pregnant pause, but no competitor, And and the way he
says it is, didn't you hear me? I said competitor,

(01:25:10):
and I chose that word purposefully. Let me repeat it
for you because I said it and you should have
accepted it the first time. And that's the unspoken way
he answers me. And you know, I think that's um
on purpose. As you know, he could have just answered

(01:25:31):
the question I asked him enemy and he could have said, no,
not an enemy. Did you know it was going to
be opening sequence the car ride? I mean, you knew
you were going to do the shoot. Did you know
that was going to be the the open Yeah, you know,
I knew. I didn't have much time with him. You know,
it took two and a half almost three years to
just get them scheduled together. They both agreed to do

(01:25:53):
the film, but then just getting them scheduled was so hard.
They're both pretty busy. Uh. They both don't like to
make plans. It's not like they were jumping for joy
to sit down together on you know, in front of
the camera. It's never It's only happened one other time
in their career together, which is in which is in
the film, by the way, and it's it's It's might
be my favorite archival element among a litany of amazing

(01:26:16):
archival elements when they sit down together, when when Parcels
has retired and now Belichick's the first year coach in Cleveland.
It's great. The craziest part about that is we had
never seen it, had no idea about it. Um. We
we knew that it existed because they both told us
we had only done this one other time, and it
was looked for the tape, and when we finally found it,

(01:26:41):
it was long after we shot our interview. We put
it in and we look at it and they're sitting
the same exact way that they sat in our interview.
Belichick on the left, Parcels on the right, about the
same distance apart, at the same angle, and the close
ups look exactly the same, and we're like, oh my god,
it was meant to be. So so let's get into

(01:27:02):
that now. The setting of the film and how you
chose to seat them and what you chose to put
around them. Take us through that process and where you landed. Um, yeah,
this was It looks very simple and it was actually
very complicated as Paul started, Uh, started our conversation with

(01:27:27):
We actually experimented with a bunch of different tables, Uh,
the size of the table and the distance apart Bill
and Bill would be from each other, and how far
apart I should be as the interviewer from them, because
we started to come up with this geometry of intimacy

(01:27:49):
is what we sort of called it. And if you
put the bills too close to each other, then they
would only look across the table at me, and they
would never look sideways. They would never turn their head
and look at each other. You see that in double
interviews a lot on the news, when you know one
person sits at the end of a I guess I

(01:28:12):
don't even know my geometry at the end of a
long triangle, whatever you call that, I don't know. All right,
let's not get off track. Uh, they would look at
the long end of the triangle and never look at
each other. We didn't want that. I mean, they're they're
they're having a conversation too at the same point, if
they were facing each other too much, and we tried

(01:28:34):
to force intimacy and have them look at each other.
And at one point we were going to put my
face in monitors over their shoulders, over each other's shoulders
to force them to look at each other more. It
would have been uncomfortable for them. And we tried to
look at that, and we thought, God, we're forcing two

(01:28:54):
guys that aren't really all that comfortable in front of
the camera to like look in each other's face lovingly.
That's not gonna work. And we found this geometry that
was pretty much an equilateral triangle where we put my
face in the interrotron invented by Errol Morris, of course
and used on a lot of films now at the

(01:29:17):
end of the the table, equidistant from Parcels and Belichick,
and we tested a bunch where we saw would they
be equally comfortable looking at each other and me? And
you can see in the wide shot that they often
look back and forth between myself in the camera and
each other, and that allows the audience to feel like

(01:29:40):
they're at the table, but it also allowed them to
comfortably look back and forth. So what that what that
ended up giving us were these close ups of Bill
and Bill watching the other Bill talk, which wouldn't have
happened if we didn't have this geometry right. And we

(01:30:04):
we didn't know we had that, and Paul, you were there,
we had this. There was this feeling in the room
when we did the interview of like, oh my god,
this is there's this feeling there that they're working things
out together. There's just this unspoken tension and uh, it
was a couple's therapy, really, that's what it felt like.

(01:30:24):
It looked like you were watching in so many rom
coms where the one that comes to mind is um
when Harry met Sally and Rob Brownie uses the interstitials
of the couples of different ages sitting and they're on
a couch. But it was that type of vibe to me,
like you said, like these two people who they had admiration,
they had respect, but they had so much deference for
each other. There was almost like this joust of of

(01:30:46):
how should I sit? How should I leave? It was
it was fascinating. They looked at each other the whole
time like they were they were measuring each other's responses
or what's he gonna say? What's he gonna say? Even
the side angles on the dollies, you know, revealed Parcels
sort of rubbing his leg nervously, and you know, you

(01:31:06):
could just tell you know, Belichick once in a while
was like looking at the camera like, you know, is
this thing on? Should I be? It was great, So
how did you solve for We've got this tension? What's
the best way to show them watching each other and
working this out? So we got back and we started

(01:31:29):
watching the different angles, and we were more fascinated by
the person listening, particularly our boss Pat Callerher just wanted
to watch the person listing more than the person talking.
He'd come in my office and he'd say, show that
clip where so and so, you know, Belichick said this,

(01:31:53):
and I'd start planning. He goes, no, no, but I
want to see what parcels was was doing while he answers,
And it was was fascinating to just see their facial expressions. Um.
And so I started thinking about split screen, which is
something that Steve Sable didn't really enjoy. Okay, he hated it.
It was not not a filmmaking technique he liked. And

(01:32:15):
I started doing research on how it was used. Um,
you know, we had we had a whole list of
films and how it was used, and um, I wanted
to define sort of like a proof of concept, like, hey,
this is gonna work and not feel like I'm trying

(01:32:36):
too hard as a filmmaker, because these guys are very simple.
The shoot was very simple. The concept of the film
is very simple. I've done complicated films like l Way
to Marino, where we recreate this entire big draft room.
This wasn't that. This was two guys in an empty
locker room purposefully because it's Belichick and ourselves. Don't don't

(01:33:01):
fancy it up. Don't mess it up with your filmmaking,
ken is what I kept saying to myself. Don't don't
overthink it. Everyone's gonna just want to watch because it's
bell checking ourselves. Don't mess it up with putting split
screens in there, for God's sake. So I started watching,
and a lot of split screens, you know, five Days
of Summer or Grand Prix, and all this stuff was

(01:33:22):
was to build this like action sequence or alternative viewpoints.
And then I got back I kept going backwards in
the in the use of split screens, and I got
back to um and this is so, this is so
uh Sable, Sable would be so proud of this story.

(01:33:43):
I got back to UH and this movie in discreet
carry Grant and grid Bergman. And this was in the
time of the production code forbidding men and women being
shown in the same bed together. So in Indiscreet Carry,
Grant and ingrid Bergmann are on the phone in different

(01:34:03):
bedrooms talking to each other, but it's shown in a
split screen so that it appears that are in the
same side by side cuddling each other. They sort of
move in the same direction. They both reach their hand
out as if they're holding hands together. And I saw
this and I thought, this is this is what I'm
trying to do, which is they are in the same room.

(01:34:29):
They're not as close together, but if I put them together,
it actually shows the intimacy that does exist in one
frame in one on one television. That closeness of them
being that close to each other and watching each other
as they talk exists emotionally. So I'm showing it on screen,

(01:34:51):
and this sex comedy from nailed it for me. And
I could just imagine Sable going there, you go there,
you know, Carrie Grant, ingrid Bergman, Steve, you know, Steve
would have loved it. That was the reason why Belichick
and Parcels are in split screen. You know, if you
take a mirror and you put it next to an object,
and then that you could see its reflection, and there's

(01:35:12):
a point in the image where the lines kind of
intersect with each other. It almost looks like you took
something and folded it open, and but it's connected. There
are many shots in your film as I was thinking
about what you're describing, where it looks like and because
of the color of their shirts and the heights of
their shoulders, it lines up in such a way that
it was if you took one of their images and

(01:35:33):
folded it open, like like Mad magazine, and there's the
other guy. Like there really are literally connected. And that
was purposeful a little bit in the in the post production,
in the editing, we slid some shots, but a lot
of it wasn't like I didn't ask them both to
wear similar color shirts, you know, they kind of just
lined up at the same height. Uh, It's just all

(01:35:54):
sort of worked out that way. And there were some
edits that we did otherwise for just b roll that
worked out that way. I mean, oh, jeez, that works perfect.
You know, I don't let's leave that, you know, where
things just lined up perfectly side by side, and we
just knew that it was all working. There's another element
in the show and and I won't describe all of

(01:36:15):
it in case you hear this pod before you see
the show, but there's scenes at the end of the
show where they're they're physically are together and hearing you
talk about it, it makes me realize. I remember thinking
these are awesome and I couldn't put put my finger
on exactly why, and I think you just helped me
figure it out. The tension you created in the split
screens is sort of exploded by when they're together in

(01:36:38):
the same space near the end of the show and
you see them interacting in a way where it's shared
in the same image, and I think there's and again
another brilliant execution of almost like teasing you, teasing you,
teasing you, and how you put these two characters together,
and then at the end you sort of undermine that
with this these other a little more wild scenes. Yeah,
and it wasn't necessarily planned for that, but I did

(01:36:59):
want to get some material that wasn't just the interview,
So we said, oh, you know, what else are we
gonna do with Giant Stadium? Because this is by happenstance
where they wanted to meet because it all worked out
as schedule and location wise for them to meet there,
and uh, you know, I wanted to take them up
and have them look at the trophies, which is this

(01:37:20):
great moment in the film because two of the trophies
they won together, and two of them the Giants beat
Coach Belichick and the Patriots. Um, so we took them
up there, and UM, I had thought that in this
film and this three hours that we had them, that
there was a possibility I would have to play mediator,

(01:37:42):
that I would have to bring them together a little bit,
that I'd have to cajole them to, you know, uh,
go up to the suite and be together in that
sort of situation, you know, with a camera on them,
it's a little comfortable. And what happens when they leave

(01:38:03):
that suite and I asked them to go to the
Jets locker room is the ultimate example that they're bonded
together against me, like I was the outsider, and they
were united together the whole time. But certainly by the
end of the interview when we when we leave and
visually they're together. They're no longer in a split screen there,

(01:38:25):
they're walking around the stadium together. They're they're together emotionally
more than they've ever been. And it's perfectly shown by
them bonding against me and my request to go to
the Jets locker room. Uh, and to keep it with
so natural. Uh. It was probably the first thing I
knew was definitely going to make the film. I just said, oh,

(01:38:47):
that's making a film because it shows them more than
any other clip where their relationship is today. Just it
proves where they're at. And in terms of the big
controversy of the film, the Jets departure and resignation, it

(01:39:08):
it closes it in that they don't want to go
back there, like physically literally, they don't want to go
back to that moment. They don't want to go back
to the Jets locker room. They don't want to revisit
it anymore. They just want to leave. And it's perfect, Well,
we can revisit it because that moment in the film,
the height the most tense moment in the film is

(01:39:31):
when these two are asked about the when they actually
stopped talking to each other. This is when Parcels suddenly
resigns from the Jets because he knows, in part because
he knows the Patriots are sniffing around Belichick and Parcels
wants him to succeed him in New York. So Parcels

(01:39:52):
suddenly resigns, kicking in this clause. I guess that makes
Belichick the Jets new head coach, and things unfold from
there and they end up not talking to each other
for for a couple of years. And so you finally
get to this point in the interview and you ask
them about it and Hank mcellye ur dps. Camera dies. Yes,

(01:40:16):
let's listen to that. Hold on a second, my camera
just went out. So, Kenny, I think this really is
symbolic of where this conversation is going. Right here, the
camera drops out, nobody really wants to hear about it,
so it sucks like the perfect segue to move on.

(01:40:37):
I mean, I think if it was meant to be,
camera wouldn't have given out, so put us in that
moment um. You know, I wasn't too worried. I come on, really, yeah,
you I wasn't. I wasn't in charge like I was there.
But were you worried if if if I were you?

(01:41:00):
If it was me? And that was my shooting that
happened because as much as you know, things are always
going to go wrong when you do a shoot, no
matter how much you plan it. Sometimes when they do,
they're still there's still tension. I hope I would have
held it together as well as you did well. But
at the time I thought it was just one camera,
and I assumed that all the others were running. What
I didn't know at the time is that everyone else

(01:41:22):
stopped down and turned off their cameras except one cameraman
who kept it was Phil Gushoo. Thank god for Phil,
who turned it off. Belichick turned it off everyone. I'm
not going to name names, so everyone else and because

(01:41:44):
I think Hank said all right, stopped down and everyone
turned off, and one cameraman kept rolling and Belichick responds
the way he does of ma, you know, joking with me,
and I think I remember thinking, oh, I'm glad, I'm
glad this happened because we got it on camera, and

(01:42:04):
then realizing, like driving home, oh my god, I think
all the cameras turned off for that, Oh crap, And
like waiting for the film to be transferred and finally
seeing one cameraman laughter should be noted. Hank mcelwick, let's
just a little extra context here. Hank is NFL Films.

(01:42:26):
He has been here. I just learned that he's employee
number twenty one, employee number. He was Steve Sables a
c He was his assistant cameraman when Steve Sable shot
Dick Buckiss bloody knuckles and has been the head of
the NFL Films camera department for I think the last
fifteen years and is retiring this February and the last

(01:42:48):
film he's going to be seen and featured in his
camera going down. He's gonna love me. I don't think
he knows I love Hank. Hank is a is A
He's a special guy. But I guarantee you he didn't
think you were going to actually use the moment in
the film, you know. I didn't think I was going
to use myself nearly as much as I did. And

(01:43:12):
then I saw that the moments that we're the best
or the most genuine were myself. So the moment where
they refused to go to the Jets locker room, the
moment where the camera goes down and Belichick responds the
way he does, the moment that I asked them if
they've told each other they love each other A narrator

(01:43:33):
can't do any of those right, like a narrator can't
say and then they were asked to go to the
jets locker room, so you have to have me do
those things. As a matter of fact, there is no
narrator in this film. There's no narrator. And because those
were one of the few times when you could have
used the narrator to to sort of express what what

(01:43:54):
was going on, we didn't really need a narrator. And
I think a narrator would have separated you from being
at that table, because all of a sudden there would
be an omniscient voice that would be telling you the
story instead of you just sitting there. And if anyone
was going to join the conversation, it would be me

(01:44:14):
as proxy for the audience. And I just wanted to
be the proxy for the audience. And I think at
some point the audience is thinking, Hey, I wonder if
they love each other? Have they told each other they
loved each other? And so I asked for the audience
that's a hell of a moment. Well, and your to
your point before the fact, the embodiment of you versus

(01:44:35):
a narrator gave them someone to stand shoulder shoulder against
like you could be the adversary in the room, whereas
a narrator wouldn't have had that function to help generate
those moments. Yeah, to me, the moment that I'm proud
of Stuf is when I asked him if they've told
each other they loved each other. And that's really because

(01:44:55):
I had the guts to ask it. I'm it was.
It was on the list for the start, and I
know you saw the list of questions, and other people
saw a list of questions, and the most common response
I got when I sent the questions around for feedback
was You're not really going to ask that, are you?
If they love each other? Um? But I had to.

(01:45:16):
I had to. I just felt to me like something
that felt felt like I had to get an answer,
and to me, I got an answer that was evasive
and said it all at the same time. And that's
it worked out perfectly because they said all that, they

(01:45:37):
said it all the way they needed to say it.
Parcels responded exactly the way parcels should. I mean, it's
a parcel's response. It's true. They held character and yet
they were candid at the same time. Like you learned
things about them, but also they never gave up the
guard at the same time throughout the whole process. The

(01:45:59):
other thing I would ask, now, the structure of the film.
Sometimes we play with chronology. Sometimes you want to start
at the end. And this film structure is very it's
very straightforward. It is it is chronological. You didn't play
a lot of tricks with with with structures here, um,
which seems like because you know what, like another thing

(01:46:23):
like let's get out of the way of these two guys.
Is that is that you're thinking there? It was the
thinking and also um born from the decision of not
having a narrator, because we decided to cut the pods
of the film, the different eras, and then say what

(01:46:44):
order we're going to put them in. And when we
cut the pods, we realized, wow, none of these need
a narrator. Plays by itself. Plays by itself. The jets
thing plays by itself. We don't need a narrator, except
if we put the amount of order. We definitely need
a narrator to take us from one to the other

(01:47:05):
and explain why we're going from one to the other.
Title cards wouldn't really explain how they connect. We'd have
to create a narrative that takes us back and forth.
And we decided that now we're getting in the way,
Now we're becoming this we're injecting ourselves into the storyline

(01:47:27):
instead of just letting them tell the story. Uh. And
it just felt natural when you talk about Parcels and
Belichick to start with how they meet, um, and we
get through it really quickly. And it's fun to see
Bill Belichick with a mustache, you know, in and stuff
like that early. But we get pretty quickly to you know,
them doing great things with the Giants, and you know,

(01:47:49):
the film and the visual style get more complicated as
it goes. You know, I think the first block is
sort of the foundation, and it's kind of the The
split screens are are fairly simplistic. Um the the conversation

(01:48:11):
between them is very respectful, and the storylines are not
um filled with tension. They're not fraught. And this is
the Giants era when they're when they're both coming up
and and and making hey, these are the salad days.
It's like celebratory. It's it's the foundation of their friendship.

(01:48:32):
It's all good. And then as you start going through
the film, the relationship starts getting more complicated. The film
starts picking up this tension um and by the end
the fifth block, the last block, it just opens with
this tension at the absolute height where they're not talking,

(01:48:52):
they're facing each other in a game, They're at complete
odds with each other, lawsuits are being uh, you know,
cast against each other. Um. And then there's this break
and the tension. And I don't think you could have
felt that unless it built up throughout the whole film.
You know, if you started with the tension and then

(01:49:15):
went backwards, I think it wouldn't have, you know, built
like a like a geyser and exploded by the end.
It's a film about the story of a relationship. That's it,
and it's at the same time simple and complicated. Have
the Principles watched the film and have you gotten any feedback?

(01:49:37):
Are they pleased? Are they mad at you? As Belichick
never talking to you again. I don't know if either
one of them. I don't know if Parcel's has watched it.
Parcels has been sent the film. UM. I know for
a fact Belichick has not watched it. He's been busy, yeah,
and has no interest in watching it. I've been told um,

(01:49:58):
you know, I know people have watched it at the
Patriots and everyone thinks it's great. And I asked, as
coach watched it and the answer was no, Hey, we
gave it to him and he doesn't care. Um, you know,
he recognizes and understands his importance and place in history,

(01:50:19):
but he really doesn't have an interest in like rolling
around in it and and like enjoying it. Yeah, you
don't want to be self conscious about things when you're
still right in the middle of it, and which he is, Like,
he's got to stay focused on the task. On to
the next one. I mean, it's crazy onto Philadelphia. Yeah, alright,

(01:50:40):
February one, nine pm Eastern on espn Uh and then
they rerun the hell out of that, right I hope.
So yeah, let's hope. But the one thing is there's
some graphics in there that say, like Bill Belichick five
times Super Bowl winner. Whoa, it's gonna have to be
updated possibly three days after it premieres. Huh, So we

(01:51:03):
might have to book some post time here to redo it.
Sweet graphics by the one. I like the graphic again,
simple clean, simple, that's the pat kellerher inspired by believing
the simple and the clean graphics. All right, hit it,
Ken Rogers, Ryan Kelly, Steve, Luca tort O, David Tyree.

(01:51:26):
What an episode The Big Blue Giant Super shows overcause
you were a great sport. Thanks for hanging in and
this was this was awesome. I hope, I hope some
of our audience hung in all the way to the end.
I want to thank our engineer Mike Kennedy, our producer
Rich Owens, all the fellow producers Steve Lukatoro, Ryan Kelly,
and Ken Rodgers who joined us here today on the

(01:51:48):
NFL Films Podcast. Follow us on all our social accounts
NFL Films, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, Good YouTube, and watch our
stuff watch all our shows on TV. From the home
of America's Football Movies in Mount Laurel, New Jersey, this

(01:52:08):
has been the NFL Films Podcast. I'm Paul, I'm Keith.
Take care of everyone, m HM.

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