The NFL Films Podcast: Draft Season Preview

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today on the NFL Films Podcast, we are back in studio.
The season maybe over, but another season is already begun.
It's draft season, it's combined season. We're here with the Guru,
Greg Coseell. He is getting ready for Indianapolis and we're
gonna break it all down. I'm Paul up Keith. Welcome back,

(00:22):
folks to NFL Films Podcast time. I think we should
start by noting that Greg Cosell is now officially the
longest tenured employee of NFL Films. Is that that that

(00:43):
is absolutely true? I just finished my thirty season. Mr
Kasro and we and so we had we had a
a bunch of retirements. The NFL had a generous retirement
program that was appealing for many of the longest standing

(01:03):
NFL Films employees. As a result, we had twenty five
of our most senior employees totaling seven hundred thirty four
years of service, retire after Super Bowl fifty two, leaving
the aforementioned Mr coast Sell. As Mick Jagger once said,
wild horses could not drag me Awakeith. They'll find somebody.

(01:26):
They'll find find somebody some incentive. Well, Greg, are you
ready for another season for you do you just keep going?
They just keep rolling on. Uh. And the thing about
Greg the last month and he's gonna fill us in,
But let's just paint a picture here. Because the season ended.
The last NFL Matchup show concluded pre Super Bowl. Right,

(01:49):
You're out at the Super Bowl in a mall in Minnesota. Greg,
there was for all of our listeners out there, they
know there was there a little bit of concern leading
up to Super Bowl as related to the climate out
in Minnesota. How did you fair in the subarctic temperatures
in the land of ten Thousand Lakes. I stayed in
a lot inside Okay, duck and cover. It was actually

(02:12):
the day of the game, it was was a little nippy.
Keith was there. He could probably attest to that as well.
When you left the game at night and we had
to walk a bit to the bus, it was just,
you know, it was just my seventeen win, chill, no problem.
I decided, uh, as you know, I'm a bastion of positivity, Paul, Yes,
I decided to embrace the bold North. When when did

(02:34):
that happen? Is that was that a New Year's resolution?
You know? I think my positive vibes are underrated. Everybody says,
it's true. I decided the minute I got there that
I was not going to spend any time complaining about
the weather. And and oh I didn't complain. Yeah, it was,
it was, it was. It was a good time. I

(02:54):
would just like to say this, I missed you guys.
It was such a nice January. I mean, we all
work essentially across the hall from each other, but these
times we had together in January, working our way through
that wonderful postseason was those were special days. I felt
more prepared to watch it to be back playoff games
this year than maybe ever. And I attributed it to

(03:15):
the not to myself, but to these conversations, because we
definitely were prepared. Thank you to to mostly to Greg
for pointing out things about the game. Brandon Graham going
to be a disruptive inside force in the super Bowl,
and lo and behold what happens the decisive the only
decisive defensive play is made. You remember, yes, that Brady

(03:36):
would throw for five yards, the Patriots would never point in,
The Eagles would win, right, not that part on the floor.
Remember when we call I said that, Okay, be that
as it may turning the page on the season, Greg
no moss grows on this guy. He cuts back to films,
He goes back into his tape watching room, turns the

(03:58):
lights off, and starts grinding. And he's still really only
in the middle of his Draft and combine process, only
in the stage just two months away. So to paying
a picture. We we come back from the super Bowl
and the you know, most of us are working on
that week after the super Bowl. We have about eight
different shows recapping the super Bowl for a hundred different networks,

(04:21):
plus the Instant Highlight film. So most of the company
is busy recapping the super Bowl um and Greg is
already watching tape of of the prospects for the draft. Correct,
and that is what, you know, paint a picture for
us of what draft season is for Greg Cosel. I'm

(04:42):
like the Sixers, Keith, I know you'll appreciate this. I
just trust the process. I love the process of just
putting on the college coaching tape and just watching players
and then with one thing really in mind, and that's
transitioning and projecting players to the NFL, because that's what
NFL teams do. So the way I go about it

(05:03):
and I try to watch more than two players when
all is said and done, and I watch as many
games as I realistically can. I'm not watching every game
that every prospect plays in in his final year in college.
That's unrealistic and not necessary. But depending on the player,
quarterbacks in particular, I try to watch six seven games

(05:24):
of each quarterback, and then specific situations like all third
downs or all of their fifteen plus yard plays to
get a feel for how they make them, all of
their sacks, all of their interceptions to see how those
come about. But that's relatively true for most players that
I watch. I try to watch at least three games

(05:46):
of every player. Very often. You try to watch what
it might be viewed as their best game and then
what would be their worst game. And stats can sometimes
help you, but not always. Uh defensive lineman, for instance,
There's been many games I've watched defensive lineman. I look
on the statue d as one tackle. I watched the game,
and he was a dominant player in the game and

(06:07):
had one tackle. Now, when you say you watch a game,
you're not watching the game broadcast you see on TV.
I'm watching what would be called the coaching tape, the
all twenty two. So I'm seeing the sideline shot where
you can see all twenty two players, and then I'm
seeing the end zone shot, which of course is particularly
impactful when you're watching offensive lineman, when you're watching defensive linemen, linebackers,

(06:32):
safeties of course at times. Uh So that's what I do.
So I'm seeing each play from those two separate angles,
And as I said, I'll watch full games and then
I'll further delineate and watch specific situations in specific plays.
This is an important distinction because you know, when we
there there there, everyone can purchase access to NFL coaching tape,

(06:57):
I think through NFL Game Pass, but not college. College
coaching tape is not available to the general public. And
just because someone is out there saying that their draft
expert because they've been watching tape, doesn't necessarily mean that
they've been watching the coaching tape, which the gurus will
tell you is the only way to really watch everything

(07:19):
and and properly evaluate, and which you know, none of
us really watch so so so Greg, which of course
doesn't make me. You know, this is a very subjective business. Um,
it's a process, it's team specific, it's schemes specific, it's
coach specific. There's so many variables cause which is one
reason why I've always been not a list guy. When

(07:43):
people say give me your top five this, or your
top five that. I really struggle with that concept because,
as we know following the NFL, there's so many variables
that make a player a good player or maybe not
such a good player, and then maybe he goes somewhere
else and he's a good player. Uh. You know, so
I just struggle with the concept of lists. Uh. You know,

(08:04):
everybody can see a guy who's great. You know, my
daughters could probably look at a guy and say, wow,
that guy is a great athlete. But it's it's not
the top top guys or or the guys who clearly
anybody can look at and say, hey, they're not likely
to play in the league. There's so many guys in
the middle, and those are the guys that are the
most challenging but the most fun because what are teams doing.

(08:27):
They're transitioning to their team. You know, Bill Belichick and
I I love this philosophy. Bill Belichick, if I'm not mistaken,
does not have his scouts and his scouting department put
draft grades on players. You know say oh, he's a
third round prospect, he's a fourth round prospect, because in
a sense, that doesn't really mean a whole lot. What

(08:48):
you're trying to do is make your team better, and
can this particular player. Tell me what this player can
do in the context of our team, our scheme, our
approach will figure out where he it's drafted based on
the draft. You know, to say, oh, he's a third
round prospect, to me, I don't know exactly what that means.

(09:09):
I think that's an important distinction, and it's a good
level set for us to start from. I think fans
often get lulled in and thinking of the draft is
sort of a Christmas morning. We're gonna we're gonna come downstairs,
We're gonna see this shiny new toy, open it up.
And while we're excited about that, it's really these are
like more like lines of code right in the computer program.
The combine is one line. It goes to the draft,
which is one line. Really. It starts with the day

(09:31):
that you hire your head coach, and he comes in
and starts to hire his assistance, and the whole program.
It's sort of a global entity that I think we
have to look at and think about. And I think
that's why I'm interested in when you talk about projectability
and how you watch these college players on college tape,
having just calm off a season of watching all the
NFL teams in the NFL tape right the that's kind
of the backdrop against which I think we have to

(09:52):
paint these these new pieces they should be doing. I mean,
you know, you should be evaluating players. Obviously, I'm looking
at it in a broader macro view of you know,
I can watch a player and say, hey, I think
he's a three four outside linebacker. Now a four three
team may look at that guy and say, well, on

(10:12):
our draft board, he's way down because that's what he is,
and we don't that's how we see him, and he
doesn't fit what we do. I don't do it that way.
I do it from a macro perspective, and I then,
you know, sort of plug them in the way I
see them. But ideally, that's what teams are doing, is
they're looking at players and trying to figure out how
they can get better. That's really the goal. How do

(10:35):
you get better as a team. You know, it is
the guy you're drafting, can he replace a guy who's
on your team. Now fill that role and be better
at it. So the combine, YEP, is really two months
before the draft. There there are certain tent pole events
in the in draft season, as it's come to be known.

(10:55):
There's Senior Bowl where all the seniors get to go
practice for a you can then play a game. There
is Combine, Then there are pro days. Uh there are
private workouts, all of which will unfold and then and
then teams are allowed to have thirty players come visit them. Uh.
So there are various stages to this process. What just

(11:19):
give us a paint a picture of of where the
combine is in the process and where teams are in
their evaluation and what they're looking for this week and
what you're going to be doing at the combat for
the combine for me is not so much evaluation of
players because I'm a big tape study guy and I
always struggle with the idea that a player changes with

(11:43):
his on field play when there are no more games
being played. Now, to me, the combine for teams, and
I've had many of these conversations with coaches, with personnel people.
That's more for the interviews for the medicals get to
know the player, get to know the person they've seen
the tape. The combine to me, when you look at

(12:03):
the on field is more about extremes. You know, if
all of a sudden, you watch a player on tape
and you like him, don't love him, but you like him,
and then he tests amazingly well, you know, his athleticism,
his is off the charts, then you might go back
and watch him with the idea that did I miss something?

(12:24):
Is there a way that we can take this player
and through coaching and through maybe different utilization than we
initially thought because he has these phenomenal athletic measurables that
he can be better for us. Or or if a
guy's measurables at the combine are really poor. In other words,
you you watch a guy on tape and you say,
I like this player, but then you you see his

(12:45):
measurables and they're below the level at which normally succeeds
in the NFL, because teams do comparisons over years and
years and years. I don't quite have that kind of time.
You know, they have a lot more people doing this.
I'm one person. So then in that case, if if
a measurable is way below. They might reassess and say, boy,
I like this player on tape, but you know, I

(13:08):
just don't know if his movement skill is ultimately going
to be good enough in our league, you know. So
I think the extreme stand out, the mid range stuff.
I think you got to go back to the tape
and see how a guy plays football. It's a body
of work. It's a body of work over time, and
particularly with quarterbacks, I think if you're in the quarterback market,

(13:29):
you should be looking theoretically at as many throws and
dropbacks as you possibly can. I mean to me, if
I was working for a team and I was charged
with studying the quarterbacks, you know, really studying the quarterbacks,
I'd watch every throw in the guy's college career, every
drop back. But as I said, the combine for teams

(13:51):
has more to do with the interviews getting to know players.
Keep in mind, here's one other important point about the combine.
At this point, the scouts have done all their work,
their grades are in, their evaluations are in. Now the
coaches are first getting involved, and very often that changes things.
Because scouts often not always, not always, and this is

(14:14):
team specific. Scouts tend to deal more in a world
of measurables. I'm being very general here, but just to
give a sort of cliff notes version, they deal in
a world of measurables. Coaches deal more with adaptability to
the scheme that the team runs. So you know Jon Gruden,

(14:35):
for instance, now that he's back in the league, when
he looks at a quarterback, he sees the quarterback in
the context of the offense that he runs. He doesn't
see yes, does he see traits? Of course, everybody has
to start with a baseline of traits to some degree.
But then ultimately an offensive coach, a play caller, a coordinator,

(14:56):
they think in terms of how does this particular quarterback
fit in my offense? So that's what you know. Someone
John Gruen's not looking for a quarterback, but I'm just
using him as an example because he did all those
quarterback camps, so he sees quarterbacks in that context, as
do most offensive coaches. All right, so let's talk quarterbacks.
We're here, we've arrived at quarterbacks. Is that an important

(15:19):
position cause in the league lately? All right, So typically
this year we're hearing of five names above all others
as likely to be drafted in the first round somewhere.
There's wildly varying opinions on pretty much all of them.

(15:41):
I don't think there's a consensus number one. I don't
think there's a consensus number five. We are hearing different
names for different teams. The veteran quarterback market is still
in flux. There is much to be to tell. Yeah,
that's a great point. We have Kirk Cousins, you have
case Keenum who's going to be a free agent. That's
a great point. We also have teams at the top

(16:03):
of the first round who are in some very interesting
and divergent quarterback situations. From the Cleveland Browns who have
two of the top four picks and haven't found their
quarterback in a generation, plus to the Giants who have
a pretty good quarterback on the roster but is closer
to the end in the beginning, and what's their attitude,
how are they going into this comments or your first
two picks in the draft? And I think it's fascinating

(16:25):
because the conventional wisdom would say the Browns must draft
a quarterback with the first or the fourth pick. The
Browns have two of the top four picks, which is
very rare and and and a lot of people would say,
should the Giants think about taking one last run at
Eli or you know, surrounding him with as much as
they can for the next two years, which maybe the

(16:45):
new head coach Pat Sherman's considering doing order the Giants
need to take this opportunity to get a quarterback right
now really really interesting, like potentially generationally defining decisions about
to be made by both of those organization. Here. Here's
here's the thing with arterbacks. Take the Browns for instance,
They're a very easy team to rip. But to me,

(17:08):
unless you have a really really strong conviction, you shouldn't
just take a quarterback because he's a quarterback. Now, it's
easy to look back and say they blew it on
Carson Wentz. That's easy because Carson Wentz has become a
good player. I really like Carson Wentz. That was one
that I hit on. I I thought Carson Wentz was

(17:28):
a really really good prospect. Um. It's easy now to say, well,
they should have taken to Shawn Watson who played five
games or six games. And we'll get into that because
that speaks to I think how the quarterback position has
changed a bit and how players get evaluated now. At

(17:48):
the position. But if you don't have a strong, strong
conviction about a quarterback to take one that high and
sort of with the idea that, oh, let's just take
a quarterback because we need one, I don't think that's
the right approach either. Now, like I said, we have
access to some of the results, so it's easy to

(18:08):
say they blew it and they're stupid and all that,
and there's been enough written about that. But you know
that's easy to do after the fact. This is also
where ownership, if it's not careful, you can get in
its own way, because you could if you were Jimmy Haslum,
you could look at what happened over these last two
years and say, guys, we passed up on five franchise quarterbacks.

(18:31):
I'm not making the same mistake. You're getting me a
quarterback with one of these two picks. But there's a
scenario with the Browns. You almost have to operate in
a vacuum because if you make decisions based on what
happened in the past, you're not really evaluating the reality
of the situation on the ground as it exists right now.
And and by that I mean the situation on the

(18:53):
ground right now is they have an insane amount of
cap space right the pounds, you could make a case
that they should blow away the field and sign Kirk
Cousins and use those picks. Take Barkley with one of
those picks, take another defensive stud with another pick, get
themselves a couple of wide receivers. Make you know, that

(19:14):
would probably make Joe Thomas more likely to come back.
They've put some offensive line pieces into place, they've had
all these They've had a couple very productive drafts. They've
they've got veteran offensive coordinator, veteran defensive coordinator now bringing
Haley to go with Greig Williams, which should be a
very fun, volatile sideline with Hugh Now, could you make

(19:38):
a case that in this circumstance that they're in right now,
in the play is go sign Cousins. You could still
get eight ten years out of him the White quarterbacks last. Now,
Cousins is thirty, you cant at least get Yeah, I
think he's thirty, right, Cousins say, you could say, look,

(20:01):
we could get six to eight years of Kirk Cousins,
Kirk Cousins, who's in his prime, and we can build
around and we could drop in a franchise running back
right now, and we could pare a dominant another dominant
defensive piece with Myles Garrett on the other side of
the ball. All right, So which raises we're jumping around here,

(20:22):
which I think is fun instead of quarterback. But just
to jump away from that for a second, So does
that mean you draft a running back with the number
one pick in the draft? Then? Boy? Yeah, yeah, you're
right by jumping around. This is a this is yeah, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.
I'm not sure we want to go there right now, because,
honest to god, the running back conversation is a podcast

(20:43):
is past. We could talk for hours about the running back.
But all right, let's get back to the quarterback. So,
so here you are with Kirk Cousins, who most people
would say is a quality professional quarterback, but not a
top six or seven guy. Would that be fair? Cause? Yes? Okay,
So now you sign him and the market is going
to be the market. You know, you can say what

(21:04):
you want. People always want want to talk about the money,
the markets, the market. It's gonna take a lot of
money to sign Kirk Cousins. So you sign him. So now,
You've got a professional quarterback, but not a guy that
most people would say is wow, that's a special guy.
You're gonna have a lot of people who might say
who will say, why did you do that? You could
have drafted Sam Donald. Well, here's why you could front

(21:28):
in this circumstance. And people are talking about it with
I'm not advocating that, by the way, I'm just saying
you're going to hear that. Sure people are talking about
with the Jets, but aren't the Browns in the same boat.
You could frontload a big contract for Cousins to the
extent that his cap hit in years three, four five
won't be as as big as a franchise quarterback normally

(21:49):
would be, which would allow you to build around him
in ways that don't require him to elevate a roster
the way quarterback is expected to do. Correct, And there's
something again getting back to this idea of global to me,
if you're if you're going with the veteran quarterback in theory,
Cousins being the veteran quarterback in the conversation, that changes

(22:10):
the dynamic of of sort of your mid range three
year plan, right, because are you not needing to sort
of think you're gonna keep a coach and a staff
in place, if you're gonna draft a quarterback first overall,
what is you What good is your investment in that guy?
If if Hugh Jackson's one and thirty one, so they've
clearly committed to Hugh Jackson, because most coaches that are
one in fifteen and then owen sixteen do not come back.

(22:33):
But if he comes back and goes it doesn't matter
if he goes too and fourteen, if he goes seven
and nine, if you fire him next year after having
picked a guy number one, what's your return on investment
potentially on that guy you've picked number one? And now
suddenly we've all heard the stories of of the of
the Jason Campbells of the world who came in with
all kinds of gifts and had you know, seven coordinators
in their first eight years of the career, and then

(22:55):
nobody really knows what happens. Can I give you a
flip side of that client, Jared Goff, you're one had
Fisher and his staff, they failed, they got fired. Your
two McVeigh suddenly Jared Goff, Oh, that's the Jared Goff.
We thought we were going to see. So there is
precedent for if they say, if they take the quarterback

(23:16):
and it fails and Hugh gets fired, that doesn't mean
it's a total debacle. What you don't want to get into,
but that speak you gotta say, this is the guy.
We believe in this guy. But but Greig, that would
what you don't want to get into, correct is this
guy's had three offensive coordinators in his first three seasons,
because once you get once you go down that road.

(23:38):
Cousins has not had up to this point. He's been
in a very good system for him with Jay Gruden,
and it would be really interesting to see what you
Jackson does. You couldn't make the argument that throwing a
football that Kirk Cousins and Andy Dalton, who you Jackson
coached in Cincinnati, are similar. So Jackson has coached a

(24:00):
quarterback with that kind of throwing skill set. Um. But
the point about signing Cousins, there's two things. Number One,
you know he's done it in the NFL. You're not speculating,
you're not projecting he's done it. And number two, it
keeps you with one and four to to help your
team in other areas, which would be absolutely critical and

(24:22):
because you're so far under the cap, it's only money
and the cap has gone up significantly again. All right,
so we've learned in the first portion of this show
that that there's a lot of considerations that go into
the combine. Besides remember in the pack your stop watch
and your notepad to take notes. So let's drill into
some of these players now and the ones who jumped
off that we have to start there. Who who's jumped

(24:44):
off the screen? And in this first batch of the
first phase of what you've you've been reviewing. Well, again,
this doesn't get into where guys will be dress because
you know, I don't do a board so to speak.
You know, I think one player that I've absolutely loved
on film, and it's a position that has never thought
out of his high position is Quenton Nelson from Notre Dame.

(25:04):
And there have been two guards taken in the top
ten what over the last is it four or five years?
I think it's been Jonathan Cooper, who has moved around
and finally started for Dallas this year. Um and then
Chance Warmack, who came out of Alabama as I believe
an eight or nine or ten pick initially with Tennessee,
didn't quite work out, ended up being a spot player

(25:25):
for the Philadelphia Eagles this year. So guards are not
normally viewed as top ten players. Uh. You know, now
you get into the whole idea of boards versus where
do you pick where. He was a tackle in Notre Dame,
but he and he moved the guardens immediately, and that's
where the projectability comes in. He he played fifty two
games at left tackle. Yeah, set the school record for

(25:47):
an offensive lineman. And they drafted him and on day
one moved him from left tackle to right guard. He actually,
I want to talk about mcglinchy because that seemed like
a little bit of the parallel potentially. I think McGlinchey. See,
this is why I love these conversations. We could go
in a zillion directions here, so we'll kind of work
through it. I think mcglinchey's a tackle, by the way.
But anyway, getting back to Nelson, Nelson, I'm ready to

(26:08):
go last names on guys name McGlinchey. Yet, Mike McGlinchey
your we're not in the point of the draft process
where we can go McGlinchey. Who the hell is mcglinch.
I'm not. I'm not prepared for McGlinchey. Can I get
a first name? That would be Mike McGlinchey from the
Philadelphia area, by the way, because but anyway, Quinn Nelson

(26:29):
is going to be on people's boards in the top ten,
maybe in the top five. Again, does that mean he
gets drafted there? That's a different question. But Quentin Nelson
is a really really strong prospect. I never used the
word can't miss because I've seen too much in my
thirty years here at NFL Films. But he's a really

(26:51):
really good prospect and he will be high on people's boards.
Whether that means he gets drafted fifth, six, seventh, eighth,
that remains to be seen. What does a guard have
to do to impress people to the extent that we're
using the adjective generational in front of the position, it's
not so much. Well, without getting into all of Nelson's traits,

(27:12):
because I think we'd get into the weeds there. I
think the bigger issue is how valuable is a really
good guard in the NFL? In other words, can you
have a really good offense without having high level guards?
And I think people would say you probably could. Now,
does that mean you don't want good. Everybody wants good

(27:33):
or everywhere, of course, but now it comes down to
how you allocate your resources to do that. Do you
want to pick Quentin Nelson with the sixth pick in
the draft when maybe there's another guard who's maybe not
quite as good as Nelson but a good prospect who
you could get with the pick in the draft. So
it comes down to allocation of resources, which is really

(27:56):
what this is all about. Offensive lineman. And I've heard
it said recently. There was just a profile. J. Gruden
was actually quoted on this topic and he was talking
about the changes in past. Offense in college have evolved
to the to the point where there are fewer NFL
ready offensive lineman just based on the scheme that they've
been asked to execute for four years. How has that

(28:18):
changed the evaluation of so in other words, are there
a few? Maybe Nelson's more valuable than he once would
have been possible. Here, Well, here's what you see because
of all the true true spreads in college which are
different than just being three wide receiver in the NFL.
It's different, and if people tell you it's the same,
they're wrong. The true spreads in college offensive linemen never

(28:41):
put their hand on the ground. So you get a
lot of offensive lineman who come in the NFL basically
having played their entire career, maybe even going back to
high school more than likely in two points stances standing up,
They've never put their hand on the ground. They've got
to be taught that, and it sounds like not a
big deal, And it's a big deal because of vision.

(29:01):
You got to remember that when you're just for anybody
out there, you can just kneel down, put your hand
on the ground, lean over, and your worldview is pretty narrow.
When you're standing up straight, you see a whole lot more.
You know, it's the same issue on defense between playing
outside linebacker and defensive end, and people just think it's
a smooth, easy transition. The worldview is different. So you

(29:25):
get these offensive linemen who come into the NFL who
have never been in a three point stance. So let's
take this to their bipeds. Interesting further along the evolutionary chain,
but not but only for regular people, but civilians, not
football players. Right, So, same topic, but let's transition to

(29:46):
the more marquee position of running back. Right, because the
question of if you need to spend, invest waste, depends
your verb, depends on who you are. Uh. That high
pick on a guard relates just as much too running back. Yeah,
And I think we need to get away from this
idea that you can get it back anywhere, because you
could say that theoretically about any position. I remember reading

(30:08):
early in maybe two tho four because of Tom Brady,
people said, oh, you don't need to drift a quarterback early.
That's an absurd argument, you know. The point is what
you're really asking, I think, and I think this is
the discussion, and Keith and I have actually had this
because our officers are right across from one another, is
again allocation of resources. What's the value of a running back?

(30:31):
Should a running back be taken in the first round?
It doesn't matter that Coroneian Hunt was a third round pick.
There's always going to be examples of that. Okay, Ezekiel
Ely was a first round pick. Leonard Fournette was the
first Peterson. Yeah, they were both taken forth and clearly
one could make the argument that two years ago, not
the suspension year, that Elliott was the driving force behind
the Cowboys being thirteen and three, and that for Net

(30:54):
was Yes, they had a great defense, but offensively for
net was the driving force between that team being a
playoff team getting to the a f C Championship game.
So the question is not oh, you can get one
in the third round, because that's a meaningless that's a
waste of time argument. The argument to me is what
is the value to a specific team. Are you not

(31:15):
going to take se Kwan Barkley, for instance, with the
idea that, oh, why take him because you can get
a guy in the fourth round. So you're gonna leave
a guy alone who's probably going to be in your
top five on your board, and you're gonna leave them
alone with the idea that you can get another running
back in the fourth round. Um, okay, I'm gonna. I'm gonna.

(31:39):
I think I might with that position in particular, I
think this might be one of the great questions of
our time. Where should running backs be drafted? And how
should you allocate running back resources not only with not
only within the roster, but within the position group on
your roster. Well, that's the question you go. So you

(32:00):
can say, all right, and you can find it running
back anywhere. As a B S argument, however, there is
a mountain of evidence here um Levian Bell second round,
David Johnson third round, Alvin Kamara third round. Different, different
because he's not a foundation back in that sense. We

(32:21):
are talking about several of the top the very best
backs in the NFL. And I just mentioned fourth pick
Ezekiel Elliott fourth pick absolutely well in the Super Bowl
champions Committee, and what was Todd Gurley pick? And then okay,
so yeah, there's examples on both. You have examples, and
you have examples on both, no doubt. So now it

(32:43):
becomes a decision for an organization. My point was that
it's not a black and white ash well, but the
other question on allocation of resources, if you take a
running back in the top five, you are heavily invested
in that player because his his salary is going to
be much bigger. And this is the question you know,
the Steelers face right now with with do you franchise

(33:05):
Levian again? Do you pay him? Do you sign him
to a long term deal at fifteen million dollars? A year?
After watching a Super Bowl where the Eagles and Patriots
combined to have what seven running backs? Who who whose
total salary isn't fifteen million dollars? I mean so that
particular position group, like you said, Greg, is what is

(33:28):
the value of a running back? I think the roster
and within that position, I think you have to put
the Patriots aside because of the quarterback. You're dealing with
it all timer and and an elite, elite, high level quarterback.
And so I think that makes the Patriots different. Let's
talk about the Eagles because they even had injuries to
their to the the guys who were there Week one,

(33:48):
right injuries, and they still persevered and found more guys
plugged him in and and again. In the super Bowl,
they're playing at least three at least three running back.
You're you're going to hear that argument and it's you.
You can't refute it because they won. So yes, So
all all I was saying is that there's no it's
not a mathematical equation. You can make arguments on both sides,

(34:12):
and then it comes down to teams, approach schemes, how
how you see it. Um But to say that I'm
not going to take say Juan Barkley or I'm not
going to take Ezekiel Elliott because of some sort of
mathematical equation that says, well, you don't take a running
back high or even in the first round. I don't

(34:34):
think that's Wait, wait, do you think that there are
teams who do say, we're just never going to have
draft a running back with the top five pick. That
just runs counter to our philosophy. And it's just not
it's just not a proper valuation of that asset, because
I think there might be teams who do feel that way,
that just say there are Like the year Zeke got

(34:55):
picked with the fourth pick. Who was the next pick?
I don't remember. I believe it was Allen Ramsey. Yeah,
well he was drafted after Zeke, so well no, wait,
Ramsey was drafted after z he was. Hold on, let's
go to let's go to the phones. Well, but I
understand your point. Who got drafted first? I think Ramsey?

(35:18):
I understand your point. I think your point is that
what is the value? Which position is a higher premium
in today's NFL? Is that your point? Yeah, I screamed
from the rooftop at the time, Zeke might be the
best running back in the NFL. I'd still take the
corner a hundred times out of a hundred. If you
think they're both elite, elite talents well, you have to

(35:41):
take the corner. And I think the franchise lockdown corner
is just so much more valuable in the NFL than
and I think most people would agree with you. I
think that if you looked at positions that are placed
at a premium, I think you'd say that there were
three that are absolutely necessary quarterback, pass rusher, and corner.

(36:02):
I think that those three positions would probably be viewed
at the highest premium in the NFL. Tackle, which is
another conversation. See this is why I look on we
have an answer from rich there Zeke at four, Ramsey
at five, A right one after the that's a fascinating point.

(36:23):
Now the Cowboys worth thirteen and three with Zeke being
the workhorse of not only their offense, but you can
make the argument their entire team because they controlled the
pace and tempo of games and their defense played fewer snaps.
So get All I was trying to say is this
is not a black and white and mathematical equation issue.
It's not like saying two and two is four. It's
it's different for teams, organizations and approaches. But just getting

(36:47):
to the tackle position. Because Paul's right, for a number
of years people would have put left tackle in that
premium position, and it's still thrown out as gospel. When
you watch college tackles on tape, college left tackles who
don't have great feet, the immediate responses, oh, he's a
right tackle. But here's the problem. NFL now defenses there's

(37:11):
more and more and more pass rushers who lining up
on the left side of the defense the right side
of the offense, and defenses scheme more and more and more.
That to me, the delineation between left tackle and right
tackle does not hold water anymore. Right, We talked about
if you play in the a f C West and
you're gonna face Khalil Mack and Von Miller, who lying

(37:34):
up on the left side of the defense, meaning they
go against the right tackle, Joey Bosa and Joey Bosa. Yeah,
there you go. So who's more important or equally Are
they not equally important? I don't. I don't think that
argument cause holds water. And the other reason I don't
is the nature of pass games in the NFL have
changed much more quick game, much more timing rhythm, not
as many deeper drops where you're asking a left tackle

(37:57):
to block on an Island one on one for three
plus seconds. So I think the game has changed, and
I think this automatic gospel statement that uh oh, it's
a left tackle is more important. I don't think that
holds water anymore. All Right, So let's we talked philosophy.
But but just before we turn the page, and those two,
since they've been as talked about as anybody, just give

(38:19):
us the guru take on Barkley and Nelson. And I'm
not asking you to say why they're gonna get picked.
We've talked about the global nature of this whole game.
But those two guys, those athletes, what have you seen? Well,
Nelson is as good a run blocker as I can
recall seeing watching coaching tape. And not that I've done
it for fifty years or anything, but I think Nelson's
as good a run blocker as I've ever seen at
the guard position. He's he's a very good past protector

(38:41):
as well. His awareness is remarkable. I don't know if
you guys people can probably go find this play on YouTube,
but he had a block against George Georgia game which
was just ridiculous. I mean, it's as good as I've
ever seen. He's the left guard and there was a
blitzer and it was a defensive back, and those guys
come with speed, and he didn't have a man specifically

(39:04):
to block based on the front and how he saw
this guy coming from the opposite side of the formation,
I have no idea, but he just laid him out.
I mean it was as good as you'll ever see.
So Nelson is a high, high level prospect. Barkley is
a fascinating player to me. Barkley is a social media
sensation because of his weightlifting and his body type. And

(39:25):
he's an odd runner in the sense that, given how
powerfully Builty is, he's not a power runner. He looks
for daylight. He's a dancer. He's there are runs where
he looks like Barry Sanders because he's really more of
a dancer and an elaterally explosive guy. He's not a
power runner. UM. He's just a really put together guy

(39:47):
who you know, we've all seen the body type. UM.
And he can catch the football. So he fits today's
NFL because he's a very good receiver and he can
detach from the formation. He's not as good a receiver
as Alvin Kamara, but he's a good fiever. He returned
kicks as well. He did not he who knows if
he'll do it the NFL. But I mean in terms
of being an explosive athlete, he has an explosive dimension

(40:08):
to his game. Clearly, Yeah, how's receiving really good? He's
a good receiver. That's that's why he fits the profile. Now,
I would argue that he's a better prospect than for Net.
I do not believe he says good a natural runner
as Ezekiel Elliott is forget you know, I don't want
to keep certainly, but Zeke Elliott was drafted to a

(40:29):
team again, Zack Martin was a first round pick. Tyrn
Smith is there well, a quality offensive But the point
is that that's the way they chose to build their team,
so drafting a back there made sense for them. That
That's my point is it's not a black and white issue. Okay,
we can debate, and I'm not disagreeing with Cause about

(40:49):
the value in a in a just abstract, platitudinous sense
of corner versus back. But every team sees themselves a
certain way and sees themselves differently. I love your mention, though,
of Barkley's past receiving being a critical factor because when
we talked about the important positions, if you want to
rank them, it was you said quarterback, corner, pass, rusher, tackle,

(41:11):
not not in you know well, but quarterback, yes, would
always be number one. The notion is the past game
is a driver, correct, so running back who has to
fit into that system? Again, it's just another consideration that
has to be evaluated when you when you look at
these guys, is Nelson bipedal or tripedal coming into the NFL?
I'm making a list with that and platitude nous by
the way, this is this is this is a high level,

(41:35):
but serious and notre dame play. Yeah, he put his
hand on the ground. You want me to sing the fight?
So already he's got division to take out the Georgia
guy with his hand on the ground. That that was
a past play. But that was remarkable. All right, all right,
let's talk we gotta do it. Let's talk quarterbacks. The
big name there are big names, of course, Donald's Rosen

(41:59):
Jackson break it down well, Baker Mayfield, Baker may Let's start.
The guy from Wyoming whose name Josh Allen. Let's start with.
Let's hear it. Let's start with Jackson just for a
moment and get into the changing and Mayfield fits into
this as well to some degree, the changing nature of
NFL offense. And obviously people say it's now college stuff,

(42:20):
and and of course there's carry over, it's it's football.
There's carry over. Um. But I look at Lamar Jackson
and obviously a number of weeks ago, one of the
people that everybody respects, and he's a friend of mine.
Bill Paullion, you know, made the point about receiver, and
then he sort of clarified and it made perfect sense
if you read the full statement. So let's just what

(42:43):
did he say. Well, he basically said that he should
start now to transition to a receiver. Okay, which again Bill,
I have tremendous respect for him. He certainly knows more
than I do. I disagree with that, but but my
point is this, think of what Bill O'Brien did with
the Shawn Watts and for those five or six games
in Houston, he basically put him in the gun. He

(43:04):
spread the formation, he did a lot of the the
RPO stuff, you know, the shotgun run actions, you know,
all those things that we associate with college football. I
think when you look at Lamar Jackson. To me, I
do not see why he can't be put into a
similar offense and be effective. Now, do you want him

(43:25):
to run as much? No, because his body type is
he's a thinner guy. I've been around Lamar Jackson. He's
a thinner guy. But the reality is that running element
is a factor. He's certainly not built like Cam Newton,
but but Cam Newton runs enough where that's a factor.
I think you could put Lamar Jackson in an offense
like that. And again I'm not suggesting week one, and

(43:47):
that's you know who knows. Again, Now it gets down
to ten different variables which are not even worth discussing.
But I think there's no reason Lamar Jackson can't be
effective in that style of offense. Has Lamar Jackson, you
know watching him on tape, um, have you been surprised
at anything? Have you? You know, as he exceeded your expectations.

(44:09):
You know what we expectations were going in a couple
of things. Number one, Bobby Petrino's offense, the past game
concepts are very NFL founded, so Lamar Jackson is very
familiar with NFL pass game concepts and route combinations. This
will not be something that's foreign to him that he

(44:29):
has to start from scratch to learn. Secondly, while there
were plays here and there where, I do think he
dropped his eyes and looked to run, I would say overall,
and I watched him in two thousand sixteen and in
two thousand seventeen, I do not believe he just looks
to run. I think he looks to deliver the football.

(44:50):
And while I think he needs some work, I think
his accuracy needs some work. I think he needs some
lower body work on his fundamentals. I think he tends
to throw with a very in base and keep his
feet too close together. That's theoretically coachable. Usually lower body
mechanics can be coached. Very difficult to change the way
a guy throws a football, but you can teach lower

(45:12):
body mechanics. Uh So, I don't think Lamar Jackson is
just a guy that takes off and runs. I think
Lamar Jackson has a feel for the past game concept
and is willing to throw the ball. And how is
his throwing of the ball. He's a good thrower, as
I said, accuracy, as you'd like his his ball placement
to be more consistently precise, whether that can be corrected,

(45:35):
that's a concern. That's a definite concern because if it
can't be corrected and he remains erratic with his accuracy,
then he'll struggle. And as as we said, accuracy as
maybe the critical factor in determining the elite from the
next rung of NFL quarterbacks, it's really critical because, as
we've probably discussed before, you can do everything right, you

(45:56):
can read the defense, you can go through your progressions,
you can do all the the things that people talk about,
but if you can't put the ball where you want to,
then you don't have a whole lot. Rosen is probably
the most refined quarterback prospect. Uh, he's definitely the most
refined in this group. Surprised you want Rosen number two there?

(46:19):
I was just I'm not I'm not ranking. I'm just
surprised that was the next one that popped off. He's
he's he's really refined. Now. He has really good repetitive mechanics. Um,
I like that. Repetitive mechanics. He's consistency, essentially repetitive mechanics.
Good jar here. Yeah, He's he's really strong in that area.
He's he's got a feel for the subtleties and the

(46:39):
nuances of the position he plays with discipline within the pocket.
I think there's a couple of concerns with him. While
he's a good athlete and he can get out of
the pocket, I think his pocket movement within the pocket
needs work, and I think he with him, you're a
little concerned about the potential for taking too many hits
because he will dand there which there's a there's a

(47:01):
balance there standing and waiting to deliver abstract lee is
very good. The question is what's the price you pay
for that? Greg? I remember there was a day you
came in to the office on a Monday a couple
of years ago. It was when Rosen was a freshman,
and you had seen a Rosen game on TV and said,
I love this well because I like the way played right.

(47:23):
You just there was you rarely You were effusive about
him in ways that you usually aren't before getting a
chance to study a guy, and how has he uh progressed?
Not like having now had a chance to watch him
for two years? Study him? What where is he? Based
on what you expected at that point? Oh, I think

(47:44):
he's that's the kind of quarterback he has caused, I mean,
I look at at a Josh Rosen and I think
to myself, he's in the sort of Matt Ryan Jared
Gough quarterback, you know, stylistically. Okay, um he might be
a little better thrower than than both those guys. Um.

(48:05):
As I said, my biggest concern with him is just
the pocket, you know, because he's a guy that's willing
to stand and deliver. And like I said, normally that
I would view that as a positive, but there is
a risk factor there for how much you get hit.
You talked about the combine is as much as anything
about getting to know the players, meeting the players, filling
in some of those gaps in with the twenty two

(48:28):
year old who was who was? You know, raising a
different generation than even the tom Bradies and Mannings were.
And this is just your take. This is not from
the tape. Greg. Does anyone care about what Josh Rosen
does on social media? Did the did the clubs? Just
just just from talking to guys, I'm just interested in
You're I've been around you, I've talked to Josh. I've
been Well, that's when you have to get to know

(48:49):
the kid. You know that, and you have to decide that.
The thing with Josh Rosen, he's incredibly smart, he's thoughtful,
he's well read, he's you know, he's not I don't
want to say other quarterbacks are stupid, that's not the point.
But Josh Rosen comes from a very strong family. His
father was up for Attorney General at one point. His
mother is a journalist. You know, he grew up in

(49:10):
a household we are learning, being curious, expressing an opinion
that's that's well founded and well based in in reading
was important. That's the kind of kid he is now.
There will be some people that might turn them off
because he's willing, very willing to express his point of view. Uh.
Speaking of personality, Baker Mayfield sometimes get gets a gets

(49:34):
a rap because there's a there's a general impression out
there that there's elements of Johnny Football that scare people
with Baker and I can only speak to the tape
because I don't know. So I'll get to be Baker
Mayfield at the Maxwell dinner in a few weeks, but
it's not as if I'm gonna you know, know him.
But a lot of people have said that party with Baker,

(49:54):
we're gonna go We're gonna do the town. That will
be a good next pot if you can go out
with Baker Mayfield, come back to court, big night in
a c with Baker Mayfield. Baker Mayfield, you expense it
to Okay, you know what our budget is. Are you
gonna follow us around? I think we should shoot that.
We're gonna be doing shots at tequila. Okay, So Baker Mayfield.

(50:15):
People love talking about Baker Mayfield. Liked him far more
on tape, and I don't want to say that I
thought I would, because I don't know what I thought
I would, but there would certainly cause a perception about
him that he was kind of a runaround guy, and
while he does have that element to his game. I
made it a point, in addition to doing all the

(50:36):
other things I said at the top of the podcast
about what I do with quarterbacks, I made it a
point to really look carefully at his fifteen plus yard
plays because I was curious to see how he made them.
If if a good number of them, a good percentage
would run around plays, that would have made me think, well, yeah,
you can do that once in a while in the NFL.
But here's what really surprised me. My biggest takeaway from

(51:00):
watching those maybe plus yard plays was how few of
them were outside of structure and improvisational, how many of
them were within the timing and rhythm and structure of
the offense. And that really made me go kind of wow,
this guy plays with timing, with rhythm, with structure. Now,

(51:21):
having said that, I went through all the third downs
as well, and Oklahoma for some reason, it's not just
all Baker Mayfield. Oklahoma got blitzed a ton on third down.
He struggled without a lot. Now, like I said, that's
not just him necessarily, but that's something that in the NFL,
he's going to get pressure. How have the metrics maybe

(51:43):
come back to Baker Baker Mayfield in terms of the
NFL's evaluation of a guy's height, Uh, all those factors
we keep talking about. How that system that we're trying
to project him into is a really critical part of this.
His just dimensions, how do they fit into again maybe
the way they wouldn't have two years ago. The nature
of pass games, and I mentioned this earlier, a lot
more quick game, three step drop, quick, five step drop,

(52:06):
a lot more timing rhythm in the past game, a
lot more throws under ten yards from the line of scrimmage,
which by its very nature means that the ball is
coming out quicker. So the shortness of height and he
was just over six feet is not as relevant for many.
They'll they'll always be old school guys who will say, hey,

(52:27):
we don't want a quarterback under six too. That's just
the way it goes. There will be some guys like that,
There always are. And there's no right or wrong here.
It's it's it's a philosophy. Much of this is a philosophy.
Football you can win a lot of different ways, so
a lot of this becomes philosophy, not mathematical equations. When
I love your quote, let's Bill parcels right, you know,
you know I love it. You said you can't make

(52:50):
your living on exception. On exceptions, so you have to
sort of you have to establish at least your Pophybody
has baselines. Everybody has baselines, no question. Um. You know
there's teams that say that, hey we don't want a
corner under six feet, or we don't want you know,
offensive lineman. A big conversation is always arm length. We
don't want offensive lineman with arms shorter than thirty three.

(53:10):
You know, there's there's different parameters for different positions. But
to me, Baker Mayfield is a really good prospect and
I liked him a lot on tape. I I really
liked him. He's a very accurate thrower of the football,
by the way, and that that boats really well. Drew

(53:31):
Brees is calling card another undersized passer all these years
is accuracy. All right? Two more of the big five
to go. You can pick which one you want to
take first, Josh Allen McDonald, Let's do Alan first. Alan
can throw the ball really hard. I mean he's a
big time power thrower of the football. Huge arm, huge arm.

(53:54):
I know. Mike Mayock said this week that he hadn't
seen an arm like that since JaMarcus Russell, and he's
just talk about the arm. He's not comparing him to Russell.
The thing about Alan is, yes, he does have that arm,
and he's six four plus two seven to forty with
unbelievable movement um. But he doesn't really have touched your

(54:16):
pace on a lot of throws and he hasn't been
very accurate. Now, he's a wow, splash player. If you
were to put on the best twenty five players of
Josh Allen, which theoretically you could do with anyone. I
understand that. I'm just saying with Josh Allen, they look
extra special. They they're Wow. He's that kind of guy.

(54:37):
Elements that you can't coach. We're talking about natural gifts.
He made a throw it was actually last year in
two thousand and sixty, and I forget who was against,
where he rolled out to his left and he threw
the ball maybe fifty five yards down the field, literally
into the corner of the end zone where he had
a foot to place the ball. He put it in
that foot. Now he can make those kinds of plays.

(54:59):
He needs to be coached hard. He needs an offensive system.
I think of the mcveigh's, the Shanahan's. Obviously they're not
drafting him, but that a system where everything is really
precisely defined, where there's not a lot of room for
the quarterback to have to think through the progressions, where
it's really well defined as to where you throw the

(55:21):
football based on the route concepts. He needs that. It's interesting.
I'm just looking at the teams and the one that
pops out at me listening to you talk about Alan
as the Broncos, Well, he's he's theoretically John and and
you'll know that. You don't know this too. I don't

(55:42):
mean to say you won't know it, but I know
cause is definitely people forget that early in John Always
career and obviously they won games. Okay for a lot
of reasons, but for Always nine first nine or ten years,
and people can look this up. He threw just as
many interceptions is touched own. He was not a high
percentage throw. He was maybe fifty six fifty seven his

(56:05):
He made spectacular plays, no question. We the talent, you know,
everybody said there's been no one like him, and the
talent jumped off the film. But he was not a
consistent player. Now it required Shanahan's tutelage to almost harness correct.
And that's when he became over a six thrower. That's
when the touchdowns became six and the interceptions dropped to

(56:29):
ten or eleven. You know, Josh Allen has that kind
of physical talent, but always talent was so extraordinary that
he took three Super three teams the Super Bowls before
he even really knew how to play. Say he's in
the super Bowl in his third year, but keep one
thing in mind, they also had a really really good
defense back in those days. Now again that takes nothing
away from Elaway, but it gets into team composition as well, which,

(56:53):
by the way, the Broncos have right now. Now Broncos
already have spent the first round pick on a project
her back, which is not and Alan's going to be
compared to Lynch. Lynch, I don't think they're as similar
as people might think, but that comparison will be made, alright.
Donald one more quarterback. Donald's fascinating because he looks the

(57:13):
part six four. I'm sure he'll be right around there
at the combine. UM. Good arm. I wouldn't say he's
got a gun. Good arm, good enough to do whatever
it's needed. Excellent athlete, really good mobility. UM. At times
he's a mess with his mechanics both lower body and
he throws the way he throws. That's not going to

(57:34):
dramatically change. UM. There are times he throws and and
the ball does come out quick. There's other times where
that elongated delivery does show up because that's kind of
a natural way for him to throw. UM. He wasn't
as accurate as that. I would have liked to have
seen this given year. Uh, he's a little undisciplined in

(57:54):
his play. I would the way I would describe him
just sort of, you know, I guess street ling. Oh,
it's he's more of a baller than a technician, and
he needs to become more of a technician. Playing with
a little more nuance and discipline at the position at
the NFL level requires snap after snap after snap. I
think he can get there. I don't think that he's

(58:15):
a guy who's who can't get there. He's working with
Jordan Palmer, Carson's brother. Jordan works with quarterbacks, does an
unbelievable job. I talked to Jordan as the Super Bowl
and he kept telling me, Hey, Donald's gonna be great.
You you mark my words. So, uh, you know, I
haven't been around Sam Donald. I'm just going by what
the tape shows. And he needs work, all right. Can

(58:36):
you think of an example of a quarterback who has
made that leap where you say where we we we
we make this we we start with this caveat. I'm
not saying he can't get there, but there's a lot
of work to do, and it almost you know, maybe
Blake Bortles we talked about like that when he came out.

(58:56):
Name me a quarterback who made that leap, who made
that progression? Who got nuance? Well? Who who refined? I
think that some people would argue that that Donald is
comparable to two players who one was a number one
pick and one was a number three pick. You mentioned Bordles,
who had issues with his throwing. It's not changed at all,

(59:17):
he's got that really bad delivery. Um Now, again, without
knowing either guy well enough to comment, I can't speak
to other factors, but Bordles would be one guy some
might compare Donald too. And it's easy now to say
Bordles isn't very good, but he was the third pick
in the draft. Okay. The other guy whose game lacks
some discipline and still does after three years is Jamis Winston.

(59:40):
And I think that you could make somewhat reasonable comparisons
between Winston and Donald because both guys are talented. Both
guys have you know, from what I hear, I mean,
Winston's personality is more out there, but I hear Donald
is a good guy. Um. You know, Winston, after three years,
he's had some really good moments. He's not been on

(01:00:01):
a really good team, He's been on a team with bad,
bad defense, which changes the whole dynamic for a quarterback.
But Winston has remained a somewhat loose, undisciplined player without
a real grasp of the nuance and subtleties of the position,
even though I bet he intellectually gets them. Donald strikes
me somewhat similar. I bet if you spoke with Sam Donald,

(01:00:24):
he would be very good and he would understand it.
But there's a looseness to his play that needs to
be cleaned up. And with Winston, there's nobody accusing Winston
of not loving the game, of not being dead. It
works hard, he gets it, He's smart, all everything you
want to still there the question in his DNA, and

(01:00:44):
is it in Donald's. That's hard to know. That's hard
to know. And that's why I asked the question, Like
we put so much on coaches. You know, this guy
he could get there, but he's gonna need he's got
so important, Like you gotta you use a hard position.
Do you really want to put that burden on the
coaching staff that not only do we have to get this,

(01:01:06):
not only do we have to do all the coaching
to make this guy great, we also have to do
some remedial stuff just to get his mechanics to a point.
But that's the job, though, No, no, But the job
is hard enough if you don't have to do that.
But because you now that you look at you know again,
you know me well enough to know I don't rip coaches.
The evidence is here for all to see. You look
at the difference from Jarrard golf to year one, year two.

(01:01:28):
That's coaching. Okay. That's Sean mcveighan's staff and Matte la
Fleur who's now the o C in um Tennessee, and
I'm so anxious to see what he does with Marcus Mariotta,
who needs some retooling as well. So, uh, you know,
that's where coaching comes in. And look, I was so
so fortunate, you know, and you guys know this, but
it just it fits the conversation. Okay. I was so

(01:01:51):
fortunate to have spend a number of times with Bill Walsh,
and that's where my world view of the quarterback position
really started and where I learned. You know, you're trying
to make quarterbacks. It's perfection is what you're searching for.
Now we know that there's not perfection, okay, but that's
how you have to coach it. The quarterback position should

(01:02:14):
never be seen as oh, he's a playmaker. Sure is
that a nice trade to have? And we all know
that there are times in games you know causes a
Steelers fan how many times has Roethlisberger made playmaker plays?
But that's not the way you teach and coach the position,
nor should it be taught and coached that way. It's

(01:02:34):
a position of discipline, of nuance. You never roll the
ball out and say, hey, guys today, let's just go
out and make some plays. That's not the way you
do it. I want to evaluate the other positions that way.
So why would we do one quarterback? One thing I
always remember Greig telling me is after Wentz and GoF
got drafted, it was early in their rookie seasons, and

(01:02:57):
Greg said, look at what the Eagles surrounded Carson Wentz
with Um Peterson, a former NFL quarterback an offensive coordinator,
offensive coordinator, Umi former NFL quarterback and offensive coordinate offensive coordinator,
De Filippo veteran, he was a veteran quarterback coach and
an offensive coordinator in the NFL. Three guys, and then

(01:03:19):
look at what the Rams surrounded Golf with his rookie year,
the first time quarterback coach in the NFL, and and
a coordinator who had never been a coordinator at anyone,
who had been a tight end coach. That means something.
Nothing means nothing against us. And and the head coach
is a defensive head coach, so he wasn't gonna be
hands on with golf either. And we saw the results

(01:03:40):
and then we saw the rams correct and surround him,
they got a head coach was a quarterback coach, like
you said, an offensive coordinator or was Yes, he was
technically the quarterback coach, you know, because and I don't
know whether he had the O C title, but because
obviously it was Shawn's offense. But Lafleur had been with
Shanahan in uh I believe, both in Houston and Washington,

(01:04:04):
so he comes from that. There's a lot of closeness
with the McVeigh Shanahan school. I thought Floor had also
been at Notre Dame for one year when Kaiser was
a young player. So much of this did you know that?
I remember him being there on the staff, but he was.
There's been a lot of change in that staff, so
I know what his role was. I mean My point
is so much of of of how this all shakes

(01:04:24):
out with these five quarterbacks, it's gonna be coaching and
where they go correct It's a lot of it is
gonna be where these it's gonna be surroundings, it's gonna
be environment, and some of them are gonna fight through it,
and there might be a restart. A coach could get fired.
But you know, Cleveland supplemented Hugh Jackson with Todd Haley

(01:04:45):
here and and added a veteran guy who's worked with
a lot of quarterbacks, a lot of really good quarterbacks,
so that if they do go that route, they might
be set up a little bit better for success at
that position than they've been in the past. And that's
why the Giants and Colts fascinate me so much. And
we don't know what the deal is Andrew black in theory.
I don't think they're going to take a quarterback at three.
You don't know, because I think what they're gonna do.

(01:05:06):
Their defense was so bad last year. They brought in
the Dallas linebacker coach who has been high one who's
been I think high in people's list for a number
of years. He's going to switch to a four or three.
I'd be very surprised if they If Bradley Chubb is
not off the board yet, Yeah, no, no they're not.
The Giants aren't necessarily giving up on Manning yet either,

(01:05:29):
But you don't want a draft in the top five.
So when you very very surprised changes Giants. Maybe I'd
be very surprised if the Giants take a quarterback into
Really Wow, hold on, unpack, what does that mean? Why?
Because I think that Pat Shermer is really really good
at defining quarterbacks reads and throws. And I think Eli

(01:05:53):
still can play. And I don't think Shermer. I think
they believe that they can compete. Don't forget there only
a are removed from being in the playoffs. This is
not a team like the Browns that's been one in
thirty one. They're a team removed one year removed from
being in the playoffs. Sherman's coming off a Vikings team
that got to the NFC Championship game. I don't think.

(01:06:14):
I don't want to say they'd waste to pick it too,
because no one would. If they took a quarterback of two,
they wouldn't view it as wasting a pick. It would
be well thought out. But I think that they probably
feel that they could be back to a ten win
team this year. I totally agree, but realize in what
you're fifteen and and he's had an incredible longevity. Forget
the fact that they benched like that doesn't matter. He

(01:06:35):
hasn't missed a game. He's that consistency. He's got some
years left. But you go back to the here's the question,
here's the question. Here's the question teams do, which I
just don't really have the time to do with. What
I do is they're looking ahead to next year's draft,
to the draft after that. They're looking at quarterbacks down.
You know, if they truly believe that next year there's

(01:06:56):
no quarterbacks, I mean, there's always quarterbacks, you know what
I'm saying, quarterbacks worthy? Then who knows they could pull
the trigger at a quarter on the quarterback because they
might feel that, hey, yeah, we might be able to
get a year two years out of ELI, but then
we're really going to get stuck. But with ELI, and
this is all theoretical, now, we can take Sam Donald
and we can have the patients in the time to

(01:07:18):
work through what we feel we can work through. Correct,
you get him to where he needs to be. It's
and it goes back to what you just said to
If you're the Giants, the idea is, let's never be
in this position again. But the fact that we are
in this position, if there's a quarterback we love, this
is our chance to have another. What you don't want
to do is wander in the quarterback wilderness for ten

(01:07:40):
years after. Yeah. And the other issue is, because they
do need a back, is how they feel about the
backs in this draft. It's easy to say, oh, say
Kwan Barkley's there. That's easy, Okay, anybody can say that.
But they may look at the backs in this draft
and maybe they feel like there's five worthy backs. See,
we don't know and not no honestly, and they may feel, hey,
the second round, we could get a back, you know

(01:08:03):
who we feel we could aligne right. Maybe they feel
Sony Michelle, who I loved on tape. Okay, they may feel, hey,
Sony Michelle in our mind is gonna be there at
uh whatever, you know, thirty four, you know, whatever they pick,
and and we're gonna draft Sony Michelle and this way
we're gonna get Sam Donald and Sony Michelle all right,
we've talked about Nelson and Barkley, the guys who everyone's

(01:08:23):
talking about especially connected to the debate of what their
value is. We've talked about the quarterbacks and again they're
they're connected to a different side of the value debate.
Let's cleanse our palates with a little bit of Sam Spence,
and when we come back, talk about Sony Michelle and
the list of players that Greg has been really impressed
with that maybe not everybody's talking about. As he packs

(01:08:45):
up and gets ready to head out to the Circle
City like Greg's gotta go, So we gotta, we gotta,
We got one more little section here. Let's let's let's
we'll wrap it up with Greg's guys that we all
need to know about. This is the latter day Sam Spence, Paul.

(01:09:08):
This is when Sam Spence came back, came back from
where that's in the after the turn of the millennium.
He hadn't written music for us in decades. This piece
was written after Gladiator came out and Hans Zimmer's score
for Gladiator was so tremendous. See Greg, this is the
good This is what people came to here. All right,

(01:09:31):
let's get back to it, Sony Michelle. I really like
Tony Michelle on tape a lot um and I you know,
to me he can be a so called feature back. Now,
feature back is one of those relative terms. It you know,
it depends on your world view of what a feature
back is. I mean, clearly, the Jaguars offense ran through

(01:09:51):
Leonard four Nett clearly two years ago, and it would
have happened again this year without the suspension. The Cowboys
offense runs through Ezekiel Elliott is so Michelle exactly that guy.
I mean, let me ask you this. Would you guys
say that the Rams offense ran through Todd Gurley as
a runner he was a very good receiver, but as
a runner, I don't know if i'd say it in

(01:10:11):
the same way of for Net and his and Zeke.
The Touches ran through Todd Gurley, is how I feel
like I brought it. Felt like what they did is
they figured out how to use Todd Gurley. My point
is in space, I think Sony Michelle could fall fall
more into the girly thing where your offense isn't running
through him necessarily where it has to start there, but

(01:10:34):
that he's clearly a foundation piece. Early's fascinating tune. We're
not gonna, you know, get stuck on it. But remember
Gurley was coming off a major knee injury. You talk
about vision and plan and what you can see in
a guy. We forget that now because he's been not
just productive but prolific in terms of the amount of
times he's carried the ball. He's been work course, and
they obviously saw that potential in course is a relative

(01:10:55):
term as well. I mean, you know, so again he's
touched the ball. Yeah. Um, But Sony Michelle is a
back I really really liked on tape, and and obviously, uh,
you know, I don't know where he's going to get
drafted because that without repeating our whole running back argument,
that becomes a team thing. Go ahead, who else, Well,
there's a name. Sony Michelle is in the running for

(01:11:17):
best name in the draft. Also in the running potentially,
Layton loved this guy on tape, Jim Vander. He's a
linebacker from Boise State. Okay, he's I don't know what
his height and weight will be at the combine, but
just seeing the tape, my guesses will be about six
four tot. He's really athletic. He can play as as

(01:11:38):
I like to say, inside out with with sideline to
sideline range and great place speed. He's really good in
past coverage. Um My initial thought watching him was he
was a Carlos Dansby kind of player. And I don't
want to go to Luke Keikley because I don't think
you know, I'm not there yet but this, and I

(01:12:00):
may never get there with him, but this, this is
a linebacker I really really like. And because of his
three down ability, he fits today's game. You will not
have to take this guy off the field. He's a
good blitzer, so you know, it would not surprise me
at all if Layton vander Esh gets into the first
round and he's only a one years daughter, so he's
got a learning curve here. And to use the vernacular

(01:12:24):
which I guess now everybody's you gonna use, is he's
got a he's got a high ceiling. Paul Upside, Greg
good Upside. I feel like it would be a real
win for the NFL if we had a stud linebacker
named vander Esh. Who else is on Greg's pop list? Well,
there's there's what's your guys view of the tight end
position in the NFL. How important do you think it
is these days? Pretty important because I think you could

(01:12:51):
value it if you can get a guy who is
dominant at that position. Are you thinking of him as
a pass catcher? Is that now where there is a
level of player who is very there's probably only three
of them at any one time in the NFL, and

(01:13:11):
and start with Gronk. If you think you can get
a guy at that level, definitely worth a high high pick. Otherwise,
if you're saying this guy is going to be a
terrific tight end, he's an a plus blocker, he can
get you eight he catches, he's not a downfield game
breaking threat, I would not be in a hurry to

(01:13:34):
draft that player in the first round. What do you
where would you put Travis Kelsey in that conversation? I
would put him as one of the three guys who
can define an offense? Who can he is? He is
an elite playmaker in the NFL. And he's also now
this is he's a great blocker too? Is he not
good block alright? So he's a good blocker, but he's

(01:13:55):
a dominant playmaker. So I would put if Travis Kelsey
was in this draft, I would say he's worthy of
a top fifteen pick. Past the point in today's NFL
where tight ends will be drafted because of how they block.
Now you want them to be able to block. I'm
not saying you want them to be bad, but you're
not drafting a tight end with a value pick. You
know you're not gonna allocate a meaningful pick because of

(01:14:17):
the way a tight end blocks, so you wanted to
make plays in the offense. There's a guy I really
like from South Carolina named Hayden Hurst who he'll be
twenty five when he enters the NFL, and that will
turn some people off because he's He's a spent two
years in the Pittsburgh Pirates organization as a picture in
first basement. If you couldn't make it there, I don't know.
I got questions for Pittsburgh Scars. Yeah, um, but I

(01:14:42):
really he's very athletic. Um again, I believe you can
line him up anywhere in the formation I think, which
he did at South Carolina. Am I ready to sit
here and tell you he's Travis Kelsey. No, but could
evolved into something like that down the road. Tyler Eiffert,

(01:15:04):
who by the way, could have been in one of
those guys without all those Yeah. Well, but before the injuries,
he was in the draft. He made a lot of
plays for the Bank. And it's funny you mentioned that
that's a good name, Paul, because he made a lot
of plays lined up is what we call x ISOA.
He was the single receiver to the boundary, particularly in
the red zone, and he'd beat corners. I remember making

(01:15:27):
making dynamic plays in college and then being the guy
when he got to the NFL. I barely remember him
blocking it all. He might be a gray blocker. I
don't know. I just remember being a downfield pass catcher.
That's why he was there. Let me throw out a name, Jo,
I mentioned Travis Kelsey. Where would you put zach Ertz
in this conversation, because maybe one notch bas Earth's is
really good. But he and and and and would you

(01:15:49):
say he's the Eagles in their passing game, He's one
of their top two playmaking I think I think he
is critical within the context of what the Eagles do.
But I'm not sure that I would put Art as
a in a vacuum, you know, just the player himself.
I don't think he's Travis Kelsey no no, no, no,

(01:16:10):
no no no. Alright, so we've got a running back,
a linebacker, the other the other the other positions are
are not as as glamorous. But there is a defensive
tackle from Florida State named Derek Noddy who I really
like on tape, and I think he's far more athletic
than some might be giving him credit for. And watching him,

(01:16:35):
I thought that he could do more. I thought he
could eventually stay on the field in passing situations. There
were times he stood up. I thought of Darrell Casey
and how he was used by Dick Lebou and Tennessee
where he was kind of a movable chess piece a
little bit. Derek Noddy kind of struck me as that
kind of player. I might be in the minority here,

(01:16:56):
but that's what I saw. How did you find Derek
Noddy was someone you read about it where you watch
how Far to State? Because of Derwin James, the safety
who's probably going to be a top top ten, top
twelve pick. Derwin James is real. I mean, I didn't
mention him only because everybody's gonna have him there, But no,
he popped, is the point. And I watched him too. Yeah, interesting,

(01:17:16):
You go, yeah, well, then I then I have Then
I have two offensive lineman. I have a guard from
Auburn named Brandon Smith, who I I think he's one
of those guys. When I watched him, I said to myself,
this guy could be a ten year pro at guard
ten years starting. May never be an all pro, may
never be you know, first or second on the list
of offensive guards. But the guy I felt you could

(01:17:38):
line him up and he'll start for you and you'll
feel pretty good. And then the other guy who I
thought was really fascinating was an offensive center from Iowa
named James Daniels who was athletic, super athletic and flexible
for for a center. I mean, this guy really stood
out because you don't see that kind of at aticism

(01:18:01):
and flexibility and movement from offensive centers, and he really
stood out to me. We've got to come back after
the draft and play, and so are these six guys
landed it? Well, now, not cal umn on it, because
you can't do that until we until they play a
whole career. But after the draft, it will be interesting
to see where these guys landed and if they were
evaluated that if they popped to evaluators the way they

(01:18:23):
did for and and keep one thing in mind. And
then again, I'm totally fine with I've been wrong, just
like a lot of people, you've never been wrong. But
I think that offensive linemen as well become a function
of of team and what they run games are what
theyre has to do in past protection. I mean, you know,
because every guy for the most part there you know,

(01:18:44):
there's very few pristine offensive lineman. Maybe Quentin Nelson is
one of them, but there's very few. And there there
flaws or weaknesses can be exposed depending on what they're
asked to do. Certainly in the era of the bide
pedal matriculate from we're doing a little evolution Greg. On

(01:19:10):
that note, let's get Greg to Indianapolis. Thanks to our
engineer Mike Kennedy, to our producer Rich Owens, to the
guru Greg Hosal for spending a few quality minutes with
us as he heads west. We could have done like
four hours. Here's so much to talk about at the
combine in the draft. Watch NFL films content, yes even

(01:19:34):
during the off season, every day the year on our
social media platforms YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. We are still
making football movies and putting that content out in the
world for you. And watch the combine on the NFL
Network this week. From the home of America's football movies
in Mount Laurel, New Jersey, I'm Paul. Thanks everyone. K

(01:20:04):
two has been a

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Crime Junkie

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The NFL Films Podcast: Draft Season Preview

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Crime Junkie

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

All Episodes

The NFL Films Podcast: Draft Season Preview

Crime Junkie