The NFL Films Podcast: Larry Fitzgerald

Larry Fitzgerald joins the show to discuss his episode of A Football Life with Keith and the film’s directors: Chris Barlow and Steve Trout (4:01). Larry opens up about his reluctance to participate in self-promotion (5:32), his post-retirement golfing plans (9:41) and his role as a mentor on the Cardinals (13:14). Then, Chris and Steve give a behind the scenes look at the making of the film (18:47), including the story of how Larry soaked Steve on a Jet Ski (44:50) and Greg Cosell joins the party to give his take on what has made Fitzgerald one of the best receivers of his generation (51:03). 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone. Before we start today's show, just a quick note.
This episode of the NFL Films podcast, which will focus
on Larry Fitzgerald of Football Life, was actually recorded late
in the regular season, So we won't be talking about
the departure of Cardinals head coach Bruce Arians because he
hadn't retired yet. We won't be talking about the Super Bowl,
which has just happened in real time but hadn't happened

(00:22):
back when we recorded. But we will be talking lots
and lots of Larry Fitzgerald A Football Life, a film
which premiered in the season, but will re air this
week Friday, February nine, at six pm Eastern on NFL Network.
You can also watch it on demand on NFL game
Pass at game pass dot NFL dot com. That's game

(00:43):
pass dot NFL dot com and this Friday, February nine,
NFL Network, six pm Eastern, Larry Fitzgerald of Football Life
and one podcast programming note. Be sure to check your
feed every Wednesday in February for a new NFL Films
podcast covering a different episode of A Football Life from
last season's slate, So this Wednesday will be Larry Fitzgerald

(01:06):
next Wednesday, February four, Valentine's Day, fall in Love with
Wes Welker of Football Life's podcast, The twenty one February
will be A Football Life Eddie George and Wednesday will
be A Football Life Jim Kelly. Each of those episodes
will feature a discussion of the film with the producers
of the film and also an interview with the subject,

(01:28):
the player who was featured in the film reacting to
his A Football Life episode. So we got a full
month of NFL Films podcast coming up for the first
month of this football off season. Enjoy all those, starting
right now with Larry Fitzgerald A Football Life the NFL
Films Podcast. Today on the NFL Films Podcast, we'll discuss

(01:53):
Larry fitzgerald A Football Life with the producers of the film,
Chris Barlow and Steve Trout. We'll talk to Larry himself,
the one and only Larry Fitzgerald, and we'll talk to
noted NFL Films guru Greg Coseell about Larry fitz a
goat walking among mere mortals. I'm Paul, I'm Keith. Welcome

(02:15):
to our show. This is an exciting day, Paul. It's
not often you get to speak firsthand with someone of
the caliber of Larry Fitzgerald. In fact, I didn't get
to speak with him, which is gonna make it even
more exciting for me to hear it. Forget fits, we

(02:36):
got Chris Barlow here today, we've got the goat sitting
right here with us. You think we should skip Larry? What?
Larry's fine? Trout, I'm worried about. Thank you. I can
hear you from Trout, the director of Larry Fitzgerald, of
Football Life, and the aforementioned Chris Barlow, possibly the greatest

(02:57):
producer in NFL films. We've gone to high perbly in
the first thirty seconds. That's our specialty. Barlow, you know,
welcome guys, Thanks for having nice to be here. Well,
we're here to talk about your film. We had the
opportunity to talk to Larry about your film, which is
something we've had the fortune of doing. Keith on this
show is hearing the reaction of the subject to his show,

(03:20):
and today we're actually gonna start the show with that conversation.
This is a conversation you guys had. Were you both there, Yes,
Chris and Steve were there. I was not. Keith was there.
The three of you spoke with Larry Fitzgerald, uh and
got his first take response to this film, which he
for so long hoped would never happen, but it did.

(03:40):
We're gonna talk about that and we're gonna hear from
him on that topic. So here it is Larry Fitzgerald
on Larry Fitzgerald The Football Life. So we are here

(04:02):
with the one and only Larry Fitzgerald and Larry, you're
with the director of Your Football Life, Steve Trout. I'm
not familiar with who. You're a jerk. You're a jerk.
The producer of Your Football Life, Chris Barlow, and myself,
I'm Keith Cosro. Chris and I produced the whole series
of Football Life, and we are so excited that you

(04:24):
agreed to do this film. So and thank you for
spending a few minutes with us. Absolutely. So you watched
the show, what do you think? Give feedback to Stephen
and Chris. I thought it was I thought it was
very well done. Um, you know, you watch it anticipation,
you know, not knowing what they expect and you know

(04:46):
what angle is going to be used, and um, you know,
just hearing some of the things that people say they're
close to you about experiences that the day had with me.
You know, it was really humbling, you know, you know,
seeing the pictures of mother and and you know, just
the whole thing was just really really well done and

(05:06):
it was classy. And you know, you know from watching
other ones in the past, you know, I knew it
was gonna be well done, and you know I wasn't.
I wasn't, you know, surprised by the fact that it
was first quality. What did we miss? What's not in
the film that you wanted to be in it? Me?
Huston Lombardi Trophy is about it? The only thing what

(05:27):
every everything else? You guys covered it and covered it well.
It was extremely well done. You saw this, Larry, and
we're thrilled you liked it. This was not an easy
sell for you. It took us a while, uh, you
and you and I a year a year and a
half to get you to say, yes, are you glad
you did it? Yeah? After after watching it, I really am.
I'm extremely happy that I did it. Um. You know,

(05:50):
the way it was done, and you know, when encapsulated
so many wonderful times and memories and you know, from
my high school coaches to my father and and you know,
you know the comments that Agent Wilson and Carson partment,
you know, stuff like that that you probably would never
have been privy to unless it was you know, put
on tape. I think, um, you know, really really made

(06:13):
me appreciate it even that much more so. I'm extremely
happy that you that you forced fed it to me.
But you are, like you said, you're not a not
a media me first spotlight guy fourteen years in. Why
is that? Why is it so hard for you to
say yes? And I love that quote you use some
Derek Jeter if you want to, you know, tell listeners

(06:33):
about that. But why is it that you you stay
so private and this was such a hard thing for
you to agree to? Well for me, it's it's it's
difficult for me to I don't know, just um kind
of take it that serious because it's a team game.
If I was Michael Felts in a swimming pool, if

(06:53):
I was you know, Tiger Woods hidden making Bertie Putch
like that is that those guys are winning it for
themselves and individual sport. But for me to have success,
so many other people have to be doing their jobs,
you know, for me, uh to be able to do that.
You know, every single catchup had somebody's had to throw
it to me. A line it's had to protect. I mean,

(07:13):
I've had to get open. You know, there's so much
has to go into your success on the football field.
So I just never really felt comfortable like just like
taking that and saying no, it's me, me, me, no,
because it's not. So That's that's the stuff I struggled with.
So what was the moment when you decided, Okay, let's
do this. The time is right. I think at the

(07:35):
odd odors you get, you start to think, like, man,
I just because when you're in the moment, you never
think it's gonna end. You know, you know how it is.
It's in reality, it's it's going to it's going to
pretty quickly. Um And and I want to be able
to look back and say, wow, look you know I
have something done. Um you know by by NFL Films

(07:58):
was done. It the best, uh, you know, to be
able to do something like that. It's, uh, it was
enticing in the overall. You know, it's kind of made
me you know, tilting to directing to go for with it.
Steve says, you're ready to start wearing wires and games, Larry, No,
not let my teammates do that stuff so well that
that brings up a good question. You've never worn a

(08:18):
wire in a game? Why is that? You know? I'm
not am I don't like working with the fits. Come on,
don't call us that, man. We're the good guys. Yeah, hey,
you did wear We got you to wear one in
practice your first time ever. Yeah, and then you got
me saying a whole bunch of crazy stuff out there

(08:38):
and company in trouble. No, that's only the good stuff.
That that stuff. Never seen a lot of people sell
out and all that stuff after fourteen years one time,
that's okay. Um. But you know, as I've told you
for three years now, Don Shula's quote to us his
biggest regret in football, in his football life is they
never wore a wire. I don't want you to be

(09:00):
Don Shula in fifty years, Larry Man. If I'm done
fifty years, you won't hear me complaining. Have multiple steak
houses around a promise country, have Hall of Fame winning
this coach all the time. I mean, I think that
would be just fine, being STI do you think that
you could ever go into coaching? Well, no, s. Why not,

(09:23):
I just have happened. The time they have to put
in and the hours and deagos management of that stuff
is not even close to something that I will find enjoyable.
What do you see yourself doing after after you're done?
I'm not sure yet. I'm still kind of trying to
figure it out. You said in the film, Um, you

(09:44):
want to become a scratch golfer. That that is for
sure priority. How close are you to reaching that goal?
Farm about a six right now? So I'm getting I'm
getting closer on the front. You're a six on the front,
aren't you, Steve? What would you say? What would you
rate my game? Well? I've only seen you in a simulator,
which is uh. You know, I've never seen you out

(10:06):
on the course because you refused to play with me.
I want right, hey, wait till you see um Peter
King came with me to to um St Andrews this year.
I know, okay, you hang out with Peter King on
the golf course, but not Steve Trout. No, he came
all the way over to Scotland with me. I went
to London with you, I know, but you knew I
was playing golf in London and you did. You had

(10:27):
no desire to come out with me. Oh you had
a foursome, you revisions hilty and no desire to come out. Um,
Peter King the play. He just walked the eighteen and
watched me. Larry. I've played with Steve. He would he
would turn into a five hour round if you brought
him along so I could get better off. I have
a question because now, two years ago we were doing

(10:48):
All or Nothing with the Cardinals and Steve was the
director of that project. I was back here on the
other end producing it. And every day we would ask Steve,
what are what are you going to get? Um, how's
it going with Larry? And and he would say, I
have nothing to report? And that was pretty much the
story for the entire season. And there's Mark Dalton said, Um,

(11:11):
Larry's approach to All or Nothing was nothing much more
than all Yeah. The question is if we were going
back in time, knowing what you know now and we're
doing it again, would you would you do anything more
than you did at that time or would you take
the same approach? Um? Yeah, I would. I would definitely,
you know, replay one game, that's it and just try

(11:32):
to try to go back and play because the Carolina banter.
That's the only thing I would do differently. Uh now,
But I like, you know, just I was happy for
you know, guys like David you know, it's coming out party,
you know, allowing him to I had, I've had my time,
I've had my shine. You know. It's I'm perfectly comfortable
with other other guys, you know, being a little you know,

(11:55):
having more to spotlight. That's that's something that ever bothered me.
So when I watched the series, I look at it,
you know, I'm I'm happy with everything. The way it
turned out. It looked good and put our team into
great light in and I think it's it's at the
bar pretty high. So as you um go through a
season that's certainly had unexpected ups and downs like this one,

(12:18):
do you think about your career, where you're headed in
the future. Are in the middle of the season, are
you just completely dialed into this season? Oh? No, completely doubted.
Nothing Nothing comes in my mind thinking about anything. I'm
just focus on what I can control. And that's not
next season, and that's not next week. That's just today.

(12:38):
And that's what I think about. One other question there there,
you know, we did the Emmett Smith Football life this
season as well, and and and that that one is
the highest rated episode of this season, and and um
up till now so far, so far. But in that
film there was a great section about his time in

(13:00):
Arizona and the impact he had on you and a
Quan and Adrian Wilson and some of the other guys
who were coming in at that point. Um. But it's
interesting to see you come from that point to where
you are now. Do you do you take it upon
yourself to try to have an influence the way I
met did on you. Yeah, I try to do exactly

(13:21):
the same way Emmy did, because it's not one of
those guys who, you know, it was really like fits
watching me what I'm doing. Just you take note. You know,
this is I'm the best that ever do. He wasn't
like that, you just kind of it's very laid back,
and you know, I'm I was really just curious, and uh,
I wanted to see, you know, how he was able

(13:42):
to ask success. Obviously I saw it on the field.
I wanted to see what he did off the field,
and I tried to follow his h his lead the
best I could. You know, from when he ate in
the morning, to the way he watched film, to the
way he practiced too, the way he dressed, you know,
um going to come into a game. So I try
to implement all of that. The other veteran that comes

(14:04):
across in your football life as having a major impact
on your career as Kurt Warner when he arrived. How
would you characterize Kurt's impact on your career. I think
he was probably the most pivotal person you know, I've
ever played because I was just the point I was at,
you know, years old. I just I didn't know that

(14:25):
I didn't know and having somebody like him when his
credentials you know, demanded the respect and so I, um,
I just really I really needed somebody like that, you know,
early on in march career. You know, he helped me mentally,
you know as professional and um, but my technique and

(14:46):
my mental approach to the game, and um, you know
challenge me often, something that I really needed. You know.
There's no way I would you know, be talking to
you right now if it wasn't for you know, him
and his tul laur. I'm just curious when you watched
the film and you you you see footage of yourself
playing football from the time you're in high school to now. Um,

(15:06):
what's what's the experience like for you watching you know
you as an eighteen year old you would pitt you
you in your first couple of years in the NFL.
Do those memories come flooding back? And you know does it?
Do you notice differences, um, in the way you played
the game now compared to looking at yourself back then? Um?
Yeah they do. I'm kind of weird, and I remember

(15:28):
details from every game I've ever played. And you if
you're throwing up a game of me in polp Wanter
or in high school or college, you know NFL, I
remember catches and routes and different things that have happened.
So um, you know what I'm seeing. This is just
the memories just come flying back. And you know I remember,

(15:50):
you know it was a catch I made there in
high school, remember, you know, walking down the railroad, you know,
with my head coach him telling me this is one
of those games that you know that big big players
may make big plays in. And you know, just conversations
like that, are you know, going down to Texas A
and M remember um that the head coaching Syracuse. Name

(16:12):
is Dino Babs and he was um one of our
coaches on our staff, and he had been fired by
Texas A and M the year before. And I remember
his speech, his pregame speech in the locker room, how
passionate it was, how emotional he was about the important
of his game for us as a team and also
for him, and after the game, presenting him with the
game ball, you know, just like I remember all of

(16:35):
those things, you know, vividly. On a personal note. Uh.
And we're gonna wrap things up here, but as a
lifelong Pitt fan, I think that you're not winning the
Heisman Trophy's one of the lost my faith in the
trophy forever. You know, you share that same sentiment that
I do. It's funny. Uh, it's funny, Adrian. Adrian Peterson

(16:58):
says the same thing. He was robbed too. So I mean,
it's it's a bunch of guys who you know, have
been always over the years. It's a it's a travesty.
It's when I saw the first cut of the film
that that Chris had edited that part. And Chris, when
when Chris started editing, we said, I said, there's got
to be the greatest montage of Larry at Pitt that

(17:18):
there's ever been in this film, which I think there is,
and Chris is an amazing editor. But but then also
we have to make sure that the world knows that
he should have won. To uh listen, Larry, thank you
so much for taking um some time. We know you're
on a short week and you're in the middle of
the season, and we just want to thank you again

(17:39):
for taking the time to make this film. And it's
everything we hope that could be, and we hope you
feel the same way. It was great and Um, you know,
it was the real joy to be able to work
with you and UM and the staff, and you know,
it turned down beautifully And I want to thank you
for me and my family, you know, for he has
put me in such a positive light. And I'm looking

(18:00):
forward to the debut. I mean, because if you Trout
is going to get to work here for another year. Probably. Man,
you know, he gotta you gotta spend some more time
with his kids. Kids don't even know him. You know,
you know what his nickname was, right, Yeah, let's let's
make that public. Great, go ahead, let's hear he never
told you what his nickname was. He might have mentioned it,
but I forget him, call him debt because he's never

(18:21):
at home family. I know his wife will keep giving
your money to Carson and Pat Pete on the course. Man,
all right, thank you, thank you, you guys, take care.

(18:46):
So really, so many places to begin when you talk
to someone like Larry fitz but I want to begin
with a dedication to Steve Trout's wife and family, the
unsung heroes of this film. Steve. I mean, we'll get
into how close as you are with Larry, as revealed
by his ready willingness and ablenus to just call it,
come out and call you a deadbeat, uh, in that conversation.

(19:08):
But first, thank you Mrs Trout. Thank you to the
kids and all the rest of the support staff in
your household who lets Steve pound the pavement, get on
the planes and complete his courtship of Larry Fitzgerald, which
resulted in this show. You guys are pretty close, huh.
You and you and Larry. Yeah, you know, it's been
I guess two and a half years, and I think
that's I'm grateful for that because he's a good guy.

(19:30):
But it started with him almost every day I'd go
to his locker during All or Nothing with the Cardinals
in two thousand and fifteen, trying to get him to
do more for the show, and he would first defense
was no. He would go down the line of all
the other wide outs in the room. Have he done him?
Have you done him? Larry, We've done all them? It's
your turn. No, it's not No, it's not deadbeat? What
were you doing here? Deadbeat? Then he his way of

(19:52):
deflecting was making fun of me that I was there
all the time and not at hell with my kids.
I tell my wife and she's like, he's being mean.
You like, no, he's not. That's the way he was
testing me. I think that's the way he was. You
know how guys are we We kind of make fun
of each other. So he didn't bother me at all. Right, right,

(20:12):
he didn't need it at all, but he was just
I know that that's his way. He's so private. He
don't want to keep talking about himself. He want to
talk about me. So I didn't take it personally at all.
In fact, my kids drew a picture for Christmas that year.
He drew a what my son's best attempt at arisona
cardinal in the eleven Jersey and I gave it to
him and Larry loved it, but that egged him on
more so I see, you're here for Christmas. No, I

(20:34):
wasn't there for Christmas, but I was close to it.
So he kept trying to dig at me like that.
And then there's one story one day late in the
year and we're trying to get him and I keep
calling back to Keith. I said, we're getting I think
the needles moving. I think the needles moving. We're walking
through right by the weight room. Why what was the
indication you were? You were? We would get in these
long talk to his locker about football. Was maybe one

(20:56):
percent of it golf or what's going on in the
world or blah blah blah. Yeah, and it was great.
Trout would call and I had a great conversation and
was the camera rolling. But you had to go baby
steps with this guy. And then one day I hear deadbeat.
I'm like, O Lord, and I look and he's down

(21:18):
the hull goes, come here, what are you doing. I'm
like nothing, We're I think walking from press conference to
the locker room. And he essentially picks me up and
almost carries me out of the building and I looked
back to my crew, like, tell my kids, I love him.
I don't know what's going on. We go to his
car and I said the passenger seat. We drive, we're
talking about golf, we're talking about politics, we're talking about
kids being dad's I have no idea where we're going.

(21:39):
All of a sudden, he pulls into a parking lot.
There's a little kid with what looks like a teacher.
Back door opens. He's picking up a son. It was
Devin at the time, I believe. So Devin walks in,
gets and he goes hey. I'm like, hey, Larry's kid. Um.
He goes say hi to Mr Steve, didn't call me
Mr Deadbeat. And we drove around again about twenty minutes.
He pulled slowed down in front of the back of

(21:59):
the in the in front of facility. Dropped me off
and I think looking back, that was a test that
was to make sure I wasn't there too. I don't
know what it was. And I've talked to him about
it and he's like, yeah, you know, that's something doesn't
normally do. We still don't get anything from it. It
was I got great news a really long car ride.

(22:21):
It was fits today and car rides on these shows,
you know, are like this is a car ride has
become a trope and and all or nothing like a confessional. Yeah, yeah,
you get great. This is like four months yea Trout
has a great car ride with great great great? How
many did you did you mount a camera and shoot?
Like how many? How did you shoot it? No, we didn't,
we didn't shoot four months the creud noidea where where

(22:44):
it was? They like wave of goodbye to me, Like,
you know, I saw the light at the end of
the tunnel, and and we're four months in. Day after day,
I finally got this. I called back. I said, I
think we're gonna get something with him. I think we
finally moved him. Next day he's like no, no, no, no,
be so private. But I think that day's like that
made football life possible. So just to give me a
little context, you've done You've done Hard Knocks with the Bengals,

(23:08):
with the Jets, and you've done any number of other
features and docks. When we say you've done, he is
Steve Trout has been the director, the two time Emmy
winning director of Hard Knocks in in what you know,
many believe is its greatest season. The Rex Ryan Jet

(23:28):
Jets a trout had done to Sea Party where he
was embedded with the team, and then we were doing
this new idea where we were finally, at long last,
going to embed for an entire season with a team,
which had never been done in NFL films history, even
though everyone we've ever worked with had asked us to

(23:51):
do it the Holy Real, but we figured the Cardinals
really wanted to do it, and we thought we had
a kind of cracked the code. The code being we're
not going to air it during the season, We're gonna
shoot the whole thing and then after the season. And
this is what became Amazon's All or Nothing. And so
Steve and Jay Jackson were and and Julia Harmon became

(24:13):
the three directors of that season long project with Cardinals.
And what was what was Mark Dalton, the Cardinals PR
guys line about Larry during All or Nothing? Well, yeah,
he said, Larry has chosen nothing or nothing, but the
all has come home to roost, as you said, Steve
in the form of this film. So, Chris, did you

(24:35):
you stand on the shoulders of Steve here? Did you
actually get to work with Larry at any point. I
did not work with Larry at all. I think I
did one local directed, one local shoot at uh Belly
Valley Forge. All right, but that's better because here's why.
So you're out in the field getting the stuff, and
now you have these fresh eyes on it when it
comes back in the building. So when you start, you've
you've heard all that backstory, I'm sure as as those years.

(24:56):
I'm fold. So you finally got to see this manner
from heaven, this footage of ar Fitzgerald bearing his soul
to us. What was that experience? I think it hit me. Um.
Steve did the big three hour interview with Larry very
early in the process. Sometimes we like to do him early,
and sometimes we'd like to interview everybody else and get
their stories before we go to the subject. But we

(25:18):
wanted to get Larry done early in case Larry changed
his mind and I wasn't comfortable with Steve anymore. So
I was finishing up another project at the time and
couldn't dive into it. But I got the transcript right
away and started reading it and was just fascinated by
the words on the page. UM. Usually for football, if

(25:38):
I don't even deal with the transcript. I just sit
down with the Row interview. But this one I read,
and I think we were fortunate that Steve had the
relationship he did with him, because there were things he
said in the interview that we were able to go
back on future shoots and get really good b roll
for stories that I know, without the b roll would

(25:59):
not have made the film. I mean, he talked about
that the Derek Jeter quote where he says, I'll open
the front door, but you're not getting past the screen. Well,
we were able to go back a couple months later
and get him opening the front door. He told this
story of this nine year old door he bought on
a on one of his amazing trips. And I was
in Morocco, Marrakesh, I walking down the street and it

(26:20):
was his door. It was on a man's house, and
you know, I don't know what it was. I just
knocked on his door. At my tour guy translating there,
but I said, so, would you be willing to sell
your cell your door? And the guy looked like, it's
my it's my door, and and I told my guy
a number, and he and he and he started pondering right,
and so he ended up let me purchase the door.
So I took this door back and now is at

(26:41):
my house is I mean, it's unbelievable with doors probably
six years old. Every time I see that door now
at my house in that moment and that memory just
kind of floods back into me. Again. Those kind of
experiences are like the ones that I live for. I
think that relationship that Steve had built going back to
two thousand and fifteen, um, and slowly each different time

(27:04):
he did anything with Larry gaining that trust. Um, that's
why we're able to get so much going forward with
with football life. I mean, he Steve went to London
with him for with thirty six hours and back unders.
So your creative process then was you went through the
whole interview and found things that would be interesting to

(27:27):
go back and get a visual reparation. We knew, we
knew we wanted to get him. We'd we've done our
our homework. We knew he had some kind of map
in his home that had red flags of everywhere he'd
been in the world, so we knew we wanted to
get that. We talked about trying to get something with
him in a globe. Um. But but the stories he
told and and there were ten that we couldn't fit

(27:48):
in the film just for time wise, But there were
a couple that we really honed in on, like this
is a really good tells you about Larry and also
transitions well into something else. That was unusual to happen,
because you know, when we do these films, we usually
get a two to three hour interview. We might get one,
maybe two other shoots with the subject if we're lucky.
But gosh, you must have done half a dozen different

(28:11):
I mean, you went to London, you went to Minnesota,
you went to his house three times. I think you
did the celebrity charity softball event. So once he said yes,
you were in. Yeah, basically everything we asked after that,
he goes, the doors were open. Whatever you need, including
telling the story of his mother. Yeah, we went in.
Chris and I talked and we knew some stuff about

(28:34):
that Moment is life and some other things about he
and his mom. It just didn't know how emotive or
how honest he'd be in the interview, and we you know,
it was probably in halfway through the interview, if not
a little longer into his credit he was so genuine
and so honest with his feelings. Um it was a
very eye opening moment to see a superstar that honest.

(28:59):
Larry fitzjer World has visited ninety six countries. Of all
the places he's been, one of the most important and
painful was Pittsburgh. It's where he continued to develop as
a football player, and it's where he was when his
father called to tell him that his mother, who had
been battling cancer for years, was on her deathbed. When

(29:22):
he got here and found out that it was too late,
it really crushed him, like you did all of us.
But he knew that he had some issues with her
over some things that he never settled and he should
have been. And I know I stayed on him about
calling your mom, calling your mom, but they both were stubborn.
I hadn't talked to my mom probably and five or

(29:42):
six months hadn't communicated was here because I thought she
was meddling my business. And I think she should have
been in my business, which is all in consequences because
it didn't matter. It shouldn't have ever mattered. It was
a very selfish, very selfish time in my life, and um,
one that I'm not proud of at all. And um,
I never got a chance to a mind by our lover.

(30:05):
I couldn't imagine me now having children knowing that my
child knew that I was stick it just didn't care.
I just tried to remind him that to let that go,
that your mother loved you conditionally. It took me a
long time now to kind of really, um, I won't

(30:28):
say get over it, but be able to cope with it.
We all have different approaches, um. I assume for for
when you're in a situation like that and you're doing
it a biographical interview with the subject, and you know
there is a topic that is deeply personal that you
know this person doesn't readily share or going to any

(30:50):
great detail about, and so I'm curious to hear everybody's
approach to that situation and how you attack it differently,
and is a different for different subjects. Starting with fits,
I think the biggest thing is that intangible feeling of
the interview. It's like you're on this boat. You'll know
if it's about capsize, if you say this one thing

(31:12):
or you or you know that the you're you're fine.
That's why you don't put up front either because you
gotta gotta get the tone of your subject. But at
that point I think we were fine. And I think
over two and a half years of trust, I wasn't
going at this from a sensational point of view. I
wanted to hear his honest feelings, and I think he
understood that from a get go. He wasn't skeptical about

(31:33):
answering because I think in that three hours, what I
tell everyone's the goal is for you to forget all
the cameras are there. And there was three on there,
and there was a crew of twelve people, fifteen people,
and I think for a three hour pocket he forgot
they were all there, and he and I were just
talking in our phone call with them. You know, he
says he doesn't want to wear a wire ever, because
we're the FEDS, right, And but I mean that's true,

(31:55):
Like you know, us as NFL films are big in
some ways of monolithic representation of the NFL that that
produces this stuff, and they don't. And it's until you know,
when you go to make a documentary about a guy,
there has to be trust and that that takes time
to develop. Yeah, I think there's two kinds as well.
It's the kind that Steve developed over the two years.

(32:16):
And then there's the trust that develops during the interview.
I mean, like Steve said, you can't start the interview
without that question. You have to and I think it
comes with experience and and you know when is the
right time, when can I go in? I mean a
lot of times when you do a three hour interview,
you're gonna go on chronological order. So Larry kind of
knew when we get to the college years this is coming.

(32:39):
But Steve still has to establish that trust even further
within the interview setting to go there. If it doesn't
go well the first hour, you know, he might not
get the response from Larry that he got. And I
think that that comes from experience. And look, we we
knew going into this interview that story. But there there
are times when you do interview and you in the

(33:01):
course of the interview stumble on on something. And I
think that that might be easier because when you stumble
on it, the subject is not surprised that you keep
asking the questions about it, because you generally you don't
know where you're going. You're first reading the transcripts and
looking at the footage. In some ways, you got to
know Larry Fitzgerald with more depth than anybody ever has before.

(33:22):
I'm just fascinated by I mean, in some ways when
we when we watch a guy, especially when you watch
a guy's wire and you see him at work, you know,
imagine somebody putting a camera and you while you're working
over three or four hours. Especially if we make a
guy a lot, you can learn a lot about somebody
just by their ticks and their emotions. That sort of
in the in between moments. I want you to play
amateur shrink here for a minute, because what fascinates me
about Larry is obviously his focus and dedication is bar

(33:47):
none to be good as good as his craft as
he is. And yet he's got this incredible perspective where
he can still look outside of himself and be humble
and appreciate the world and ask and be cure us
what is it about this guy that those two things
can co exist? Well? And you mentioned the wire a wire,
and we did get a wire on him at an

(34:08):
O t A for about forty minutes, you know, helmets,
no pads, just running routes. And in that forty minutes,
I mean he he asked a question every twenty seconds
before every play. He was asking his position coach, what's
the next play? What's the next play? Uh? And he
was confirming his responsibility, you know, whether it was what

(34:30):
route he was running or what is blocking responsibilities? And
this is guys in the league fourteen years and he
just his thirst for knowledge is unquenchable, whether it be
football or I think that's why he's been to seven countries.
He just wants to learn as much about everything as
he possibly can while he's here on earth. He's constantly

(34:52):
next to me's peppering me with questions and talking about
owners decisions. You know, Mr b, why do you guys
do this? Mr Be? Why why won't do this? He
was so intrigued with where you've been, what you do,
how do you do it? Why do you do it?
What do you pay for your house? What do you
pay me your babysitter? What's your car payment? Who's that
person I saw you with a few weeks ago. He's

(35:13):
always asking about my family. How many kids you have?
What's it like that five kids? You know? How do
you do it? I mean I used to think, man,
I must be really special. He always asked me, he
knows all these things about my kids, and I found
out he knows that about everybody's kids. How are you today?
You're four? All right? How's your mom? I just saw
earlier today. Give her hugs. I saw your brother. This

(35:33):
is right before play on third down and eight and
fourth quarter. Cary little Man look dead. Luck me. Huh.
People are like, oh, yeah, he's trying to ssach you out.
It's not like he's really trying to psych me out,
because sometimes he gets so caught up in a conversation.
He missed the snap of the ball. It's one thing
to hear a bunch of people say that in interviews
and then put it all together and have a nice
montage of talking heads. But then he literally and one

(35:56):
of the shoots walks up to our camera. Man, I
believe it's Dave Mell who's wearing a steadicam and starts
quizzing him about how heavy the steadicam and where the
weight is displaced? How heavy is that whole ray? Or
have you have your net? Uh? Where's it? Where's it
distribute the weight on your body? Where do you you're

(36:18):
feeling you shoulders in your back? You can tell in
that sequence that he's not patronizing people, is not believing you,
He's not just trying to fill air to like keep
you at bay. Do you still think he has a
fear of failure that drives him. Definitely, It's incredible. Yeah.
I don't think this made the film, and I think
Carson Palmer talked about it. But the Cardinals, I think
they have a film or a meeting each week with

(36:41):
the entire team where they list basically individual errors and
they'll call you out. You know, Okay, you had two
holding penalties, you dropped three passes. Mrs Sigmons Mr. Simon's
Larry is terrified of being called out in front of
the whole team. Doesn't want to ever make a mistake,

(37:01):
doesn't want it to be his fault that something goes wrong,
and and that's probably why he's going to go down
his top two or three receiver of all time. So
one thing I was thinking about is a subject like
this who everyone is so positive about. Everyone has nothing
but like this guy's basically the most interesting, inquisitive, caring

(37:24):
person in the world. And he's also like the best
in the world at what he does and one of
the best he's ever done it. How do you fashion
a story that's not just a forty four minute love letter.
You know, we know we have the one story um
beat about his mother, but I think a lot was
taking it what he admits. Now you can go on
this more. Chris is how I think he would even

(37:46):
say obnoxious and cocky. He was his first couple of
years and he changed. Yeah. Kurt Warner tells a story
in the film about the first time they had dinner together,
and Kurt had been in St. Louis uh won a
Super Bowl with you know, Tory Holt and I, Bruce
and oz A, Kim and high powered offense, great at
show on turf, and you know, he starts talking to

(38:07):
Larry and he's given Larry advice, I think you can
do this a little better if you do that. And
Lar had been in the league. I think it was
the second season when when Kurt came and Larry's response was, Kurt,
I'm I'm good enough now, I don't I don't need
to change anything. And you know, Kurt was floored by it,
but he said Larry, Larry got the message eventually, and
he said he spent the rest of his career trying

(38:29):
to improve, and you know he said years later, Larry
would ask Kurt, you know, and I as good as
Isaac and Tory. Now He's like, no, they got they
have Super Bowl right, They've been to Pro Bowls. You're
you might be the second best receiver on this team
behind in Kwan, you know. So you know, Kurt was
trying to get the best out of him, but he
was teaching a lesson at the same time. And it's
obvious that how much Larry has changed. I mean, the
way those guys look at Larry now that the young

(38:52):
receivers on the Cardinals, it's he's completely matured. And he
goes back to the candidates for him to sit there
and admitt it to us too. What do you think
happened in the early portion of his career that altered
his viewpoint? I definitely think Ett, even they were only
together short short time, just Emmett's career in Arizona, but
everything Emmett did, he did you know, if he had
scrambled eggs for breakfast, Larry did. If he got in

(39:12):
the cold tub on after a practice on a Thursday, Larry,
did you know? Emmet's the guy who taught Larry you
take two suits on a road trip. You don't just
take one. Nobody wears the same suit two days in
a row if you're professional. Um, I think Emmett helped
him grow up. And I think the influence Kurt had
on him clearly in those years. Um, he grew up
really fast. But you know, I don't know how different
that that would be for than than any other guy.

(39:34):
Once he gets his feet wet in the league and
he starts mature and and he got to his Super
Bowl relatively early in his career and based almost wanted
by himself in the fourth quarter, he came that close
to winning it. And I think, you know, he's been
on a quest to get back and finished finished the
job ever since. And I think, you know, you realize

(39:55):
when you get in that situation, you come that close
what really matters in the NFL or those championships. And
he doesn't have one, and he can catch five thousand passes,
but if he doesn't get the Lombardi Trophy, he knows
there's something going to be missing in his career. And
I think that's why he's still playing in your fourteen
and and it sounds like you're fifteen next year. Time
out football geek out break for a minute. Is that

(40:18):
the greatest tost season run individuals to Larry fits seven touchdowns,
four games, seven touchdowns, and I think it's about six
Dred receiving him almost. I mean, if you remember and
and the sequence in the film that m delves into,

(40:38):
it is terrific. Five. I remember when Chris showed showed
me the first cut of the film and you know,
it was like, well, I mean we're like eight minutes long,
because I think that was actually the first thing I
cut because I knew when you said, you mean edited,
not removed. Yeah, and the first thing I edited was
that season or that playoff run because I wasn't gonna

(41:02):
short change that. It was just the footage. It was
just incredible to watch. I mean, I've seen those shots,
you know, hundreds of times each, but to realize he
did it in four straight weeks at game after game.
You know, he was making the deciding play game after
game after game against the best competition in the league.

(41:23):
I mean, I don't know that we'll ever see another
run like that. So for all the beats in that sequence, Chris,
where you're showing the incredible plays and the amazing shots,
and the sound of the plays he did make that
he did complete in that four game run, there's the
one that he didn't the play didn't make, which ultimately
didn't make the show. But it's on the ninety yard
James Harrison interception return in the Super Bowl. Harrison literally

(41:46):
goes coast to coast from one goal line to the
other end of the field and Larry almost catches him.
He doesn't, of course, Harrison scored, but in that out sequence,
the looks on the faces of the Steelers Mike Tomlin
and I think, I forget who else was in there,
but they look as if they think Larry still could
go back in time and make the play, like as
if they're scared and still can't really believe, like he's

(42:07):
some sort of boogeyman that he was gonna and still
could catch Harrison. I always chase, I always chay, especially
especially if I feel like I can catch them. I
knew I can catch James Harrison, you know, running and
if a trail role and get in my way, and uh,
you know, I might have a ring. Now he's selfish.
He got he got a ring already. He won't one
in New York, but he stole mind from me. They

(42:28):
always have to get back, coach right on the sideline,
get back, get back. If they had gotten back, Larry
Fitzgerald might have saved that game. I think my eyes
were glued on him the last forty or so yards
of the play, UM, because he had to negotiate out
of bounds around people, and you know, it was interesting
that he wasn't shutting it down and I knew that,

(42:51):
um he was possibly the guy that was gonna gonna
bring James down in the field of play. But I
think that that play and his effort on that play,
uh speaks to who he is as a football player
as much as it play that he made at the
end of the game. That play tells you everything you
need to know about Fits. I mean, he's going to

(43:12):
play from start to finish. He's going to give you
everything he has, and unfortunately for him so far in
his career, he's come just short of of capturing his goal.
What you just underscored is maybe the most maddening part
of our jobs as editors is that we you know,
YouTube made a film about Larry Fitzgerald's life and career

(43:36):
and possibly what you would describe as his signature moment
as a football player and didn't make the final cut.
And when I started this film, you know, I mean,
there was no way that was not going to be
in this film. I'm gonna, you know, as incredible as
this four four game run was of what he did
catching balls, it's gonna we're gonna have this great moment
in the super Bowl where he you know, he goes

(43:56):
a hundred and eight yards and almost makes a game
winning tackle, games eaving tackle at the time, and you know,
forty four minutes goes by really fast with a guy
like fits this year the super Bowl is gonna be
in Minnesota. And then Chris and your early cuts, it
was emphasized almost more how much he wanted to play
the super Bowl in Minnesota, and we said, let's be
careful just in case this season goes. Steve did an

(44:18):
interview with him at his Minnesota home on the Lake,
and Steve said, how far is the stadium from here?
And He's like about twenty miles. I mean, it was,
you know in my head, and like, this is the
perfect ending to this guy's football life. Is the kid
from Minnesota comes home and you know, nine ten years
after he almost won a super Bowl for the Cardinals.
He does in his hometown and he has the Jerome Bettis,

(44:41):
I'm retiring in my hometown with my super Bowl trophy ending.
But you know that didn't happen, which you know, kind
of nice for us because we get to see him
play at least another year that moment. Let me tell
you funny story about that. I'm doing that interview drenching, wet,
soaking wet, like a wet dog, standing on his dock.
Why because twenty minutes before where he walks out, we're

(45:01):
waiting for We're set up on the dock. He has
his golf simulator in his basement. He's he's not playing
golf on a course. But I walk in like seven
thirty the morning. He's dressed like he's playing golf. He's
on whole probably six or seventh hole downstairs in his basement.
He was go set out, calling when you come get me,
when you're ready, we set up. I come get him.
He walks out, he goes, we're walking back to the dock,
dead beat you ever you're a ride jet Ski? Yeah,

(45:22):
I wrote jet Ski. He's like you fast. I'm like, yeah,
I'm fast. We walked up he's got four jets because
he was. He said pick one. I was like, what's
the fast, because I'm not telling you. So I picked one.
He hands to be a life jacket. He gets on one.
We go out to his lake. He is on the
end of the lake. He's still in his golf clothes
and a life jacket. Yeah, he never changed, never put
shoes on. I have jeans on in a college shirt.

(45:44):
I think I took my shoes off, gave my Walton
cell phone to the crew, and they watched me like
they did back the facilities they filmed it. I don't
know if you're aware of that. I realized this after
So we go to the end of the little cul
de sac of the lake, if you will. He's like,
all right, we're gonna race. I was like, all right,
I'm getting my you know, I'm my cheese mill. I'm
all I'll destroy Larry Fitzgerald. He's like, all right, you count.

(46:07):
I was like, no, you count, and like it's no
you count, no you count. So I find I said
I want to three, and I floored. I'm good on
jet ski and i take off and I'm up by
like twenty yards. I'm like, oh my this is this
is this is pretty sick. I'm they better be taping this.
So then like a motor boat, out of the corner

(46:27):
of my eye, he comes cruising up, I mean, going
twice as fast as me, doesn't pass me, cuts right
in front of me, and drenches me with all the
water from the back of his jet ski. I look over.
He's crying laughing. Obviously had done it, you know, many
times before. I mean, I'm wiping water out of my face.
We then, like two sixteen year old to go and

(46:48):
do stuff on the lake. He does it three or
four more times. Obviously he set me up. I come
back and they're rolling on the whole thing and I'm
drenched to a cord and we had to finish the scene.
But he couldn't stop laughing. I mean, look, he's still
this guy. He's this thirty four thirt five year old guy,
but he's a he's a good dude too. So Larry
and Trout is like some sort of Buddy Cup movie.

(47:08):
I felt so small, like how did I fall for this?
But I did? What does he have like an extra
button on like a secret turn. I don't know what
it is, but you could have picked that one does
he have He's got How did I got button on
all four? How did I not think about that? I
do it? I'm like, oh, yeah, I'll be I'll be
Larry Fitzgerald. That is Trout, But he's a had. He

(47:29):
got Patti extra gear. He never gets caught from behind.
You know, he's not the fastest guy in the world,
but he never gets You talked about how he's around Emmett.
He learned a lot. He's around Kurt and he learned
a lot. I'm sure Trout you've seen the younger cardinals
around him. My guess is they they basically genuflect trying

(47:50):
to learn at the foot of Lyar Fitzgerald. When you
guys are doing these shows and you're spending time with
these all time greats, whether it's in person or Chris
studying him, what are some things you you've learned, whether
it's from Larry or someone else. You you've made a
film about that that stuck with you after you produced
the show. That's a good question. You know, one thing
we saw Larry wouldn't do a thing after the game

(48:13):
until he was dressed to the nines. The tie had
to be pulled up. The sleeves couldn't be rolled up.
You know, some guys go off had a great win.
There got a shirt Colorado. They don't have a coat.
He had to be looking to the nines for every
single time he addressed the media, and just the attention
that details were, I mean just amazing that he and

(48:33):
all superstars and all the elite athletes have. Um that
stuck out to me. But I think also with him,
he's to see how private that guy is. To see
a guy who has spent his work life under a
spotlight wanting nothing to do with that spotlight when he's
not there. Um, he travels alone, he's part of the film.
He's on an iceberg alone. Or he went to Morocco alone.

(48:56):
The first time he ever wrote a motorcycle was for
four straight hours by himself across the Australian Outback alone alone.
I've seen crocodile donedee. You man, that's that's not safe area.
Got some Ricky Williams in him. That's who I'm thinking
of when you're telling me these things. Yeah, but I
think I don't I don't know Ricky, so I don't

(49:16):
want to go into that. But I think Larry loves
the the hunt for knowledge, for adventure, adventure, and he
doesn't want the spotlight, doesn't want to He's got great friends.
He does travel with friends in England. He was playing
golf with buddies, but he likes sometimes that's solo adventure definitely.
And I think you asked that question what you learned

(49:37):
about about these subjects. I I kind of compare him
a little. I did Roger Stallback's football life several years ago,
and uh, I think there's a lot in common. I mean,
probably two of the most revered players in NFL history,
especially by their opponents. I mean, Larry Larry hasn't warn
to wire in a game, but we've had players opponents wired,

(49:58):
and you can get a few for how much opponents
revere Larry Fitzgerald and I think Stallback was the same way.
But I think when you get to know them, I
get two things coming. They're just they're regular people. And
you you know, when you grow up just seeing them
on TV, you'd never see them like that. You think
they're these, you know, superheroes, but they're they're regular people

(50:21):
and they're hyper competitive. He's very normal. He's incredibly funny guy. Um,
but you've got to get past that screen door. Speaking
of screen doors, I think, um, we should open our
door to the Guru and here his thoughts on fits.

(50:42):
Did you have that segue written down? I was really
struggling if you thought that verbal segue was good? Way
do you hear the musical? One hit the music? Mike,

(51:04):
the Goat and the Guru on the set of the
NFL Films Podcast for the first time. Welcome back, Greg,
good to be here. I'm a little nervous because I'm
with Steve Trout. I don't know if I can measure
up to that standard. It's been very difficult for Keith
and I today. What standard does what standard does Trout have?

(51:26):
Jet skiing Trout? This has to be my A plus
game because you know I'm breaking out in a cold
sweat the pride of James Madison University. We'll walk you
through it. Sorry, how to drop that. The Dukes by
the time this podcast airs, will know if they're the
two time defending the national champion in FCS. But today

(51:48):
we don't know that. We don't and you're doing a
great job holding it together with with the tension of
the potential dynasty. Thank you. But let's get back to
the topic in hand. Larry Fitzgerald, Greg, you watched the
Football a film I did. We're gonna start with a
clip that did not make the show, a bit of
an analysis sequence with Chris Collinsworth and Kurt Warner talking

(52:10):
about Larry and the attributes he brought to the wide
receiver position. Larry was one of the first two introduce
us to if it's a tie, I'm winning right that
that when I'm covered, I'm open that that kind of
theory that just because the guy is standing right next

(52:31):
to me, I'm still gonna get the ball. I'm gonna
outrebound that guy. I'm gonna get body position and make
sure only I catch it. Trust me. If you throw it,
Carson Palmer, it's not getting intercepted. I may not come
down with it. There's only two options they're gonna happen.
I'm gonna catch it, probably score a touchdown, and or
it's gonna hit the ground. I trust me. And when

(52:53):
quarterbacks know they don't have the possibility of throwing an interception,
don't throw it to you all day long. He was
one of the best above the rim players that there's
ever been, and he introduced us to a whole list
of receivers that are currently getting drafted in the top
ten of NFL drafts that are rebounders. When I first

(53:14):
came to Arizona, Josh McCown was here, and you know,
I was used to playing with Isaac and Tory, and
for me, open was you would see two ft e seven,
you would see a gap between the dB and Isaac
and Tory and you go, Okay, that's what open looks like.
And then I got here with Larry and and An
Kwan and they were different receivers, and you know, there'll

(53:35):
be times where the dB is like right in their
lap and I'd watched Josh throw it and I'm like,
what are you doing throwing it? He's covered, And of
course Larry they make the catch and and I'm like,
I go in there and I get that same relationship
and I go nope, and I throw the check down
and he's like, Josh would tell me, you gotta just

(53:55):
trust him. You gotta understand that open is different and
if you can throw it a certain way, nobody else
is going to get the football. So we had so
much fun being able to, you know, use my accuracy
in his athleticism and throw balls, And what I called
educated forces, you know, was that most quarterbacks would say

(54:17):
or coaches would say, you're forcing that ball to Larry.
For me, it was an educated force because I knew
I was forcing it, but I was forcing it in
a position where I knew only Larry could get it.
And then the odds went way up and it became, uh,
not only you know, not a force anymore, but it
became a good throw to throw it to Larry when
he was in a position to go and make one

(54:38):
of those acrobatic catches. Two things kind of popped into
my head. Number One, even though he was a top
five pick. I remember when he came out, there were
a lot of questions about him in some people's minds
because he wasn't a burner and because he made a
lot of contested catches and that really wasn't in vogue
yet in the NFL. So when he came out, you know,

(54:59):
it was the case where people said, oh, he's he's
a can't miss because he can do X, Y and Z.
What he did really well was catch the ball, which
obviously you want to do as a receiver. But he
wasn't an explosive moving athlete and It's funny seeing some
of the clips from Pitt in the show. You know,
it reminded me. You don't you don't look at him

(55:20):
and go, wow, look at that guy moved, but he
did have good size obviously. The second thought that came
into my mind listening to Kurt Warner about you know,
educated forces and contested catches or is they're now called
by a lot of people fifty fifty balls. Was He
played a good number of years of his career with
arguably two of the most accurate quarterbacks in the last

(55:44):
twenty years, Kurt Warner and Carson Palmer. And you need
that kind of quarterback for that kind of receiver. We
talked about high pointing and in a nutshell, it means
when the balls in the air, he goes up and
gets it. Isn't right. It's one of the things where
if you said that to me, I'd go, well, yeah,
every if you're in the NFL, receiver, everybody can do that.

(56:05):
So give me some context, like how rare is that
skill and how rare is his ability to execute it? Well,
there's a body control element to that that not everybody
else has, because don't forget you are running down field Normally,
this happens when you're on the move. You're not in
a standing position, so you're on the move and then
you have to react to the ball. Now, obviously this

(56:26):
is practiced, as Kurt Warner indicated in the clip, So
it's practiced. It's not random. He doesn't just throw the
ball and hope that Larry Fitzgerald goes and gets it.
So they they decide based on the position of the
corner how the ball is going to be thrown. You're
throwing it to a receiver when there's a defender literally
right next to him in his pocket, so you have

(56:48):
to decide what kind of throw is it. Are you
leading him because you think you have enough space to
lead him, Are you throwing it up higher so he
can jump up and get it, or are you throwing
it behind him for a back shoulder Because the reality
is a corner can't play both balls. He can't play
the big ball down the field and the back shoulder
at the same time. It's just not humanly possible. When

(57:10):
you watch the film. Fits had that skill set in
high school. That's what it's so crazy. We talked about
it earlier, that he was doing these things when he
was fifteen years old, and which which it almost makes
you realize that that it's not a learned skill. You
just have that gift. And I think sometimes today when

(57:30):
when people evaluate receivers, because everybody wants explosive, everybody wants fast,
everybody wants guys who can score touchdowns theoretically from anywhere
on the field. That's sometimes the art of catching a football.
I don't want to say it's overlooked, but it doesn't
seem to be the first thing that people talk about
when they're talking about a receiver. And obviously it probably

(57:51):
should be because that's what you have to do first
and foremost. And you know, he catches the ball as
well as anyone I know. You know, in in the film,
it was talked about that he and Chris Carter are
the two guys that people really talk about and think
about as far as great hands, and you know, it's
again it's always hard to say they're the only two.
But certainly Larry Fitzgerald, you don't really remember him dropping passes.

(58:18):
You mentioned well, you mentioned in high school and Larry,
Larry's dad we interviewed for the film, and Larry grew
up as a Minnesota Vikings ball boy when Denny Green
was the head coach there, and Denny Green told Larry's
dad when Larry was in high school that he's good
enough to play in the NFL. I mean Denny Green.
Obviously it was a great value talent. But there's something
ironic there. Denny Green is the guy who was the

(58:40):
Cardinals coach that drafted Fits at a time when the
Cardinals really needed a quarterback, and he took a lot
of heat for taking Fits instead of a quarterback. Um,
And people said it's because he had this relationship with
with him as a kid, and it was you know,
he did a radio show with Larry SR. Wait a minute,
so did did Fits come out? He did not come

(59:02):
out the same year as Eli and Rivers and Big Ben.
He came out the year before. No, No, he did.
He came out of four. Yeah, and I think they
had the third pick, so they were going to they
could have had one of them. Wasn't Gallery the second
that year? There's a Raiders it was, So he came
out of four. So if he came out of four,

(59:23):
then then it was Gallery, Fits and Rivers, Rivers and
Roth right right, Cardinals passed up Rivers and Big Ben.
Now here's the question, did they make the right pick?

(59:46):
I mean, we're talking about one of the greatest wide
receivers of all time, but was talking about two rings
here from Pittsburgh. So we know you're answer well, but
I am a huge Larry Fitzger. Imagine Mr pitt going
to Pittsburgh. I think this is I think no, I
think this is a fair question to ask Greg, because
they got a Hall of Fame receiver, but they the

(01:00:07):
face of a franchise and the face of their franchise,
and yeah, probably the greatest player in the history of
the Cardinals, but they passed up on You can argue
what Rivers is. We know that that Ben went on
to win rings and and almost certainly will be in
the Hall of Fame. Do they make the right pick? Well,

(01:00:28):
that's easy now to do, you know, to look back.
It's also fun, you know, I think that most people
would say that if you feel strongly about a quarterback,
that you take the quarterback. I don't think that that's
a profound scoop here to say that. I think that's
what people would say. I think it's fascinating what he said.
What Greg said though about it took the precision passing

(01:00:49):
of Warner and Palmer to help unlock what Fitzgerald was.
So if you're gonna play alternate reality, it's you wonder
Fitzgerald with a different guy throwing to him, or got
series guys over such as fourteen different sixteen different quarterbacks,
And I don't think I don't think those guys are

(01:01:10):
a lot of them that are gonna be knocking on
Canon's door. I don't think fair point. Well. The other thing, too,
is even though he didn't have great time speed over
my years here at films, I remember talking to different
cornerbacks who played against him, and they always said that
he was faster than you thought when they played. I
mean I remember games, Yeah, yeah, I remember having those

(01:01:30):
conversations and and hearing that, and um like Jerry Rice, Yeah,
I mean Jerry Rice. I think time four six was
it wasn't. I think I just looked it up for
seven one? Is that? Is that what Rice times or fits?
Time six fits is four six three? See four four
six three in today's world, In the world of two
thousand seventeen, going into two thousand eighteen would be viewed

(01:01:52):
as slow for a wipe these days, how much is
speed overrated and wide receiver position? That was my question,
I think because I don't think Antonio Brown burns it up.
I think speed is overrated. That's a relative term, you
know how much. But I think that the ability to

(01:02:13):
work in smaller space is far more important, meaning the
ability to get in and out of breaks, the ability
to catch the football, the ability to make catches with
people right around you is very important. But I think
short area quickness and explosiveness is far more important than
straight line speed. Except Julio Jones was sub four four. Yeah,

(01:02:33):
I think I asked the leading question that I would
rephrase that as is speed overrated for a wide receiver?
Obviously it's great to have speed. It's great to have
Julio Jones packets, and it's also not a lot of
Julio Jones either. The notion that catching the football is
underrated those is fascinating and I think it's obvious on
Sundays there's guys where you would say, he's an NFL receiver,

(01:02:55):
you should make that catch. Well, the thing is is
guys who tend to be burners, and you can go
back to de Sean Jackson. You can look at Will
Fuller in Houston, everybody gets enamored with them. I mean,
DeShawn was the second round pick, will Fuller much later
now last year was a first round pick solely because
he could run. But there's limitations to those guys. What
they add for a team is what every team wants

(01:03:16):
to add, a dimension, a dimension that every team likes
to have because they believe that speed dictates coverage. So
therefore it's a dimension every team wants. But the player
himself isn't necessarily a great, complete player. He just brings
a much needed dimension. Which of those dimensions can a
guy add once his career begins. Well, you can't add

(01:03:38):
speed in terms of I mean, can a guy become
a little faster, But a guy who's not explosive will
not become like Larry Fitzgerald was not going to become explosive,
straight line explosive, you know, just by you know, practicing
track on track and field. So no, you can't add that.
You can add short area quickness, can you can? Your
hands get better? Absolutely? And if you talk to coaches,

(01:04:00):
they'll tell you that you can teach guys how to
catch a football if they're not great at it. So
we're talking about the different dimensions of receivers. One of
the neat things he's got these guys get into in
the show is the multidimensions. Larry fitz as his career evolved, well, yeah,
and and he made a change halfway through and late
in his career, spurred by b A. Bruce Arians when

(01:04:21):
Arians got to Arizona after coaching in Pittsburgh. In Bruce
Arians became the Cardinals head coach. One of his first
decisions was to move Larry Fitzgerald from a split in
to a slot receiver. I felt like it was a
slight initially, like he's doesn't think I'm good enough to

(01:04:43):
do this anymore. He's trying to ruin me out. You know,
those types of thoughts go to your mind. We moved
him into the slot receiver. You know, he had a
ton of questions because he did not want to fail
you like whatever. I thought it was a little flat
because that made me chop your feet too much, And
he was afraid of making that transition. Cousin was totally
totally new tal. As we grew together, there were very

(01:05:06):
very rough spots. Break in, Why did you break out?
Oh man? Break in? You my score. They cleared the
whole metal out. He saw where it was heading. You know,
I said, hey, call call Reggie, called Hines. They got
eight nine balls later in their career, you still got
years left. I talked to Hines word and I talked

(01:05:28):
to Reggie Wayne, and both of them told me the
same thing. Once you let him know and you show
him that you were completely committed to what he's doing.
One more times in the coach, so it was gonna
be right seven ago. Damn, things are gonna look good
for you. Instead of lining up outside the numbers, running

(01:05:49):
deep patterns and relying on his jumping ability, Fitzgerald was
now running more shallow crossing routes in the congested middle
of the field and exposing himself two more big. He
used to joke that being in the spot, getting banged up,
having guys hit you running shortslance, that's an Kuombolden's job
became Larry Fitzgerald's job. I think it is the strongest

(01:06:14):
argument for him being a Hall of Famer. Not only
the great things he did, but he was asked to sacrifice.
He was asked to do things he wasn't particularly comfortable with.
He wasn't even that good in the slot in his
first year, but man did he improve. So two of
the players Bruce arians mentions there are hinz Ward and

(01:06:35):
Reggie Wayne, who he had coached in Indianapolis and in Pittsburgh.
What is that position, this slot receiver position that Fitz
was being asked to move to, and why why was
it different? Why? Well, I can't tell you what was
in Bruce's head, but I'm sure he saw a receiver

(01:06:55):
who he probably felt was in a little bit of
decline in terms of his movement. Because on the outside,
you have to win what we call individual isolation routes
because even in zone coverage, if you're running routes outside
the numbers, the corners essentially match up. It's just different technique,
but they match up as good as fits was. You
can't always rely on contested catches. There are times you've

(01:07:17):
got to win, you've got to separate. And he was
probably slowing down in Bruce's mind. So now you go inside.
There's more bodies now you have to deal with. You
run routes that have much more of a two way go,
meaning that you can work either right or left because
you're in the more in the middle of the field,
you have to have a better feel for understanding coverages

(01:07:37):
because you have to react to more people. So if
it's zone, you have to have a real sense of
what that zone is because you have to find voids
between people, as someone who watches tape of every game,
where you surprised to see fits make this change so
late in his career and thrive the way he has

(01:07:57):
no because I'd interviewed him, and I remember interviewing him
years ago, and he spent a lot of time when
we were not when we were off camera, because I
was actually asking him questions about playing wide receiver. He
spent a lot of time talking about splits and the
importance of receiver splits and what that means for specific routes.
So you know, I knew that he really thought the

(01:08:20):
position the big issue when you work inside where there's
a couple of issues. Number One, you have to be
a blocker because more and more teams in the NFL
now feature what we call eleven personnel, meaning three wide
receivers as they're almost base personnel package, and so you
run out of that and if you're in the slot,
you have to block. You can't not be a blocker.

(01:08:41):
And receivers feel differently about that. We always hear, we
always here with Hin's word, is the best blocking wide
receiver in the NFL, to the point where it almost
became a cliche. Well, you have to block depending on
the specific run play, safety's linebackers, or even defensive ends
depending on the run play. And if you're obviously blocking
linebackers or defensive ends, you can't just stand there. You

(01:09:04):
actually have to exert some physicality. And not every receiver
is one willing to do that or too capable of
doing that, but Fits he's proven to be. You know, look,
you don't know that until he does it. But I
think based on you know, his attitude, his approach to
the game, Uh, you make that decision. That's the decision
Bruce arians made being with him. And we didn't get

(01:09:24):
into this in the film because we didn't have time.
But Fitz did not want to make this move. No,
I mean, this was a big blow to his ego.
I mean Adrian Wilson talked about it in the interview
like Fits would call him and say, am I not
good enough to play outside anymore? And I think we
talked before about how competitive he was a big reason
Why this really annoyed him is he wants to face

(01:09:45):
the other team's best corner. He wants to go against
the number one guy. He doesn't want to play against
the nickel corner in the slot. Big deal, I beat
their third best corner. He wants to go up against
Richard Sherman and run past him and make a catch.
And and I think it it shows, you know, we
talked about how he matured. Is another example of of
doing something that's better for the team, even though individually,

(01:10:06):
you know, probably wasn't something he one. You know what
it reminded me of by the way, in and Mike
Shanahan became the offensive coordinator of the Maybe it wasn't
ninety four whatever year, but that's the year they won
the Super Bowl. He might have been gotten thereon yeah,
but I can't remember, okay. But he was a little

(01:10:26):
more expansive in his formational usage than the previous coaching
staff when he got there. And he wanted Jerry Rice
to play in the slot. Not but he had formations
where he went to Jerry Rice in the slot and
Jerry Rice didn't want to do that either, but they
did do it, and Jerry Rice caught touchdowns from the slot.
Wait break, because the last young six touchdowns Super Bowl

(01:10:50):
is Rice in the slot. Well, the reason why coaches
also want to do it is because of matchups. You know,
football has increasingly become matchup football. And while Arry Fitzgerald
might have wanted, as as any athlete would who's great
at his craft, play against the best, the reality is
you bring Larry Fitzgerald in the slot to play against
slot corners who more often than not are smaller uh

(01:11:13):
and so he has a size advantage uh and more
often than not are not the best of the group
of three or four corners that may play any game.
And now, as as a coordinator, as an offensive play caller,
you have advantages you feel you can work with with
your slot receiver and he can win in the middle
of the field. Okay, but break it down further. Why

(01:11:35):
isn't a Josh Norman or Richard Sherman moving to the
slot along with their Some guys do, but a lot
of corners are very used as they learn the position
to having the sideline, and when you don't have a sideline,
that just makes the position totally different. Not everybody can
do that. So the sideline, you know, I've heard coaches
say the sideline is your friend. I mean, nothing can

(01:11:58):
be caught out of balance. It's not a cat. So
it's really hard for guys who've never played in the
slot to just say, let's go into go into slot
and play him. It's it's hard. It's interesting that it
works both ways offensively and defensively, and you need both
in this day and age. You need a nickel, you
need a corner who can play in the slot, and
you need a wide receiver who can play this without question.

(01:12:18):
And there are some guys who made a living playing
in the slot. Marcus Colston was a guy who was
I think a seventh round draft choice out of Hostra.
You get into a system with Sean Payton, who has
an expansive mindset in terms of formations and play design
and route concepts. The guy made a living working inside
against linebackers and safeties. So where do you land let's

(01:12:39):
wrap this thing up, where do you land on Larry
Fitzgerald as historically UM in his own era? And you know,
you know we were joking before, but you know you
may have passed up on Philip Rivers and Ben Roethlisberger,
but you can you can sleep well at night knowing
you have to a Hall of Fame wide receiver. I mean,
where would you rank him? Right now? You mean as

(01:12:59):
far all times someone says, give me your top five,
you're putting on the spot. It's time we are putting
on this right, Trout? What are you trying to do here?
This is this is the group, This hot rag's gonna star.
He's gonna stop coming. Because I want to know, I
want to I'll do this. Don't rank aig? Is he?
Is he in your top five? I've never done that,

(01:13:21):
so i'd have to start. So who who? Well, obviously
we know Jerry Rice is gonna being anybody's top five.
I'm trying to think of receivers now. A politician, you
won't even answer the question. It's just way more studied
than you are. Tom, I wonder this isn't this Swan

(01:13:42):
and Star Antonio? You can you can rotate those four
and any order. Not. My point is my point? Isn't
their argument to place him as the second best on
all of all time? Is there an argument you mean
after a Rice? Yes? Well, it's funny you say that
because I've had coaches say to me, and this is

(01:14:05):
interesting you guys probably don't even think about this guy.
I've had coaches say to me that Sterling Sharp was
better than Jerry Rice, and if he didn't get hurt,
would be talking about him as the best receiver to
ever play. You could say that that about anything. Just
try Gary Carl Gary Clark would have been the best

(01:14:25):
player if he was better. Who's no, I'm talking about skills,
But you're skirting the issue game. Would you say that
intentional a sponsor? For this second? Is there an argument
yes or no to Larry being number two? I'm fine
with a no, but I want to I want to
get an answer. Is there an argument? Sure, sure, there's

(01:14:45):
an argument. Sure, feel to make it. Let's let's he
avoided trout for Soule and then and then and then
soaked him with a jet ski for that's right, That's right.
I will say this though, I mean, when you perform

(01:15:07):
at a really high level for such a long time,
not many guys do that. I mean, that's a real
select group. Longevity is is underrated. It is like catching
the football, catching the football stealing. Sharp had the best
line I ever heard about that. He said, you got
to catch the football. They can they can sign a
dog to go down there, pick it up in his
mouth and run it back. But you gotta catch it.

(01:15:27):
That's what you're there for on air. Wow, well that's good,
you know, because we had a dog with a bone.
Thank you, thank you. Let's let's end there. This has
been a great conversation. Thanks for coming back. Greg. Please
don't hold the the expressed opinions of all of our
guests against us a call from people. Yeah, please don't

(01:15:47):
have trump back. Let's hit it. Thank you to our
engineer Mike Kennedy. Today, let's first go on the cat.
Well done, Mike rich Owens producing. Thanks to Steve Trout
and Chris Barlow, the producers of Larry Fitzgerald of Football Life,

(01:16:09):
which you can see on NFL Network on demand. Go
find it. It's a great one. And of course Greg
Coast Sealth. Greg, thanks for coming by. We'll talk to
again soon. From the home of America's football movies and
Mighty Mount Laurel, New Jersey. I'm Paul, I'm Kate. This
has been the NFL Films Podcast. Take care of everyone,