The NFL Films Podcast: The Ice Bowl

Michael Meredith, son of 'Dandy' Don Meredith, joins the show to dive deep on The Timeline: The Ice Bowl, a film he appeared in, in addition to co-producing and directing it with NFL Films' own David Plaut and Julia Harmon. Michael talks about the journey he undertook while developing the film (31:53), his relationship with his father (39:38) and what it was like tackling a documentary versus a scripted movie (36:20). David and Julia give a behind-the-scenes look at how the film came together (1:13). Finally, as he nears retirement at the end of this season, David talks about his 42 years at NFL Films and his time getting to know legendary quarterback John Unitas with the San Diego Chargers (59:33).

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:24):
Grasshoppers sign up today. Go to grasshopper dot com slash
films to get twenty dollars off your first month. That's
grasshopper dot com slash films. Today on the NFL Films Podcast,

(00:45):
we'll discuss the Ice Bowl, that coldest and most historic
of games. That's the subject of the newest installment of
the documentary series The Timeline. Our guests the producers of
the new Timeline documentary In the Ice Baul, Julia Harmon
and David Plout. Hello, Hello, pod, and we'll talk to
Michael Meredith, the son of the late Dandy Don Meredith.

(01:07):
Both father and son played an integral role in this
film and you'll hear all about it. Welcome to the
NFL Films Podcast. I'm Keith, I'm Paul. Bundle up everyone,
time for some extreme exposure to the ice bowl. Wow,
I mean it's cold. It's cold outside that there is

(01:29):
there gonna be a lot of like puns in podcast.
I don't know if I'm ready for that. I didn't
prepare for the well written parts. Wow. I mean, I
guess you'll be frozen out of that one. Nice. Yeah,
you're gonna. Dave's gonna he's got about ready for you.
I don't want to give you the cold shoulder, ladies
and gentlemen. That voice is Dave Plout, great NFL Films

(01:55):
producer for how many seasons two forty two uh, and
this will be his final season with NFL Films. We
in our last episode, we were with Bob Angelo, another
NFL Films legend who's in his forty three season and retiring,
and now Dave Plout and is forty second and final

(02:19):
season as one of the great storytellers at NFL Film.
And I can't think of a better subject to have
my swan song than arguably the greatest and most exciting
postseason game ever played in NFL history. And your partner
on this film is the comparatively Calo nonetheless a veteran

(02:40):
in all things Packer because Julia, who hails from Grand Rapids, Michigan.
She is a packer princess. Since how old were you
when you first donned the green and Goal? I mean,
I think it's fair to say since I was born.
I've been brainwashed at a very young age, Dave. So
she was a very worthy ally to have on this
this project. I felt covered and I felt more legitimate

(03:02):
in Packer Land working with Julia. And how many seasons,
Julia have you been with NFL? I believe this is
my seventh season. You know, we often pair filmmakers to
make documentaries here. We like working in pairs. So to
pair uh, a veteran like Dave with somebody younger like Julia,
you get a really interesting mix of ideas, perspectives, approaches it,

(03:25):
and it can yield something very interesting. The fan non
fan dichotomy is also a useful one we find because
there's people who sort of have the knowledge of the
team in the game, maybe above and beyond, with the
other one might any emotions that come with that particular story,
and they help sort of challenge each other to make
sure it's both clear and compelling as the process gets
teased out on the screen. And I think what Julia

(03:46):
brought to the table that was extremely valuable which I
could not provide, is the perspective of the younger audience.
When we produce historic shows like The Timeline, we want
to try to make them relevant to younger audiences, and
Julia act we came up with a narrative thread that
I think really will have younger audiences will find extremely compelling.

(04:06):
I would watch stuff like this no matter what because
I'm interested in the history, But for younger audiences who
are not acquainted with that, they need a narrative hook.
And I think Julia's idea what she can elaborate on
is really a very personal not for her but for
Michael Meredith. That really I think people will be able
to relate to kind of go with that that Dave

(04:28):
knows the Ice Bowl better than maybe anybody. I just
do we have a sound effect for this, alright? I
just he I mean, any shot, any anything from that game.
He or he organized pretty much the entire project, and

(04:49):
he's the ice bool guru for sure. So you have
a Packer fan who knows the ice Bowl. You have
a football historian who knows knows the ice ball. But
let's back up and explain, just for our who are
a little less steep than this, what is the ice ball? What?
Even further, Keith, what is a game with a name?
What qualities does it need to become a game with
a name? Well, let's see that. How many games are

(05:11):
they that have names? Well? There, I mean, what are
some games? What are some games with names? The Sneakers Game,
Way Back, Holly Roll or Sea of Hands, Immaculate Reception,
Music City, Miracle, greatest game ever played? Toc Role, But
a lot of those names are are are are given
to plays that then signify the game. The Ice Bowl,

(05:34):
on the other hand, is like a day. It's like
an event. It's a it's a thing that exists in
the imagination as much as it does as a real
football game. But I would argue that it is actually
underrated as a football game in the annals of professional football.

(05:55):
I don't think we think of it as an actual
football game enough. Like it's like, oh, the Ice Bowl
that day when it was like super cold, and then
then bart Star stuck it in and Lombardi was on
the sideline and they were playing Landry and you know,
the shots are really crazy and everybody was frozen, right,
that's the game, right, Like, that's what we think in
the ice ball, especially younger people. Rightly, absolutely, I mean

(06:18):
that's coming into this. I had worked a little bit
on the ice bol because I did some stuff for
the Packers Hall of Fame. But that's why I only
remembered the fine Remember that wasn't alive. But I only,
uh ever saw the final drive, and I only knew
that it was very cold. I had very minimal knowledge
of the entire game. But we really obviously dived into

(06:38):
the whole game. And you're a Packers fan for most
people in our generation, you're not even in my generation
flattering yourself, all right, Most people in our generations think
of it along those lines, even Packers fans. And I
want to take a step back and say, all right,

(07:00):
what is this game? Essentially, it's the NFC Championship. Packers Cowboys,
two of the iconic teams in NFL history at that point.
This is the end of the Lombardi era, his final
season in Green Bay, which he hadn't yet made public, correct,
but people suspected it um and they were going for

(07:20):
their third straight championship, as they record, it had not
been done before and hasn't been done since and fifth
and seven years, and the Cowboys were still this sort
of young rising power that hadn't won anything yet, right correct,
And the Cowboys and Packers had met earlier in that
same calendar, or they played on New Year's Day in

(07:40):
a much warmer Dallas Cotton bowlt Stadium venue, and that
game was decided virtually on the final play at the
goal line, when Dallas had the ball trailing by a touchdown,
ready to send it into overtime, but Don Meredith through
an interception after being pressured by green Bay's defense. The
interceptions up their drive and green Bay hung on to

(08:02):
win that game. So this is the revenge game after
they already played a classic equivalent to the NFC championship
game the prior year, but now they're in green Bay
instead of Dallas. So there's all that context and set
up wrapped up into this game, but the game itself
transcends all of that. The Cowboys take the lead in

(08:24):
the fourth quarter on a rally. They rally they're down
two touchdowns fourteen to nothing in the first half, freezing
cold minus of brazilion degrees on the road. They go
down fourteen nothing and come back and take the lead
on what on a trick play that? And what was

(08:45):
the play? It was? Don Meredith the quarterback, pitched out
to Dan Reeves. Dan Reeves, Dan freaking Reeves, who later
became coach of the Giants and the Broncos and the
Falcons went to several Super Bowls. But he threw from
the opposite side again into the wind, a fifty yard
bomb that was caught by a second year receiver named

(09:06):
Lance Rensel. On that play, you see Lance Rensel running
his route but he almost slips on it, which I
find interesting because really, how much would we be talking
about this game if it didn't come down to the
final drive? Obviously not Yeah, he's wide open, but he
almost he almost takes a spill. Dan Reeves are running

(09:26):
back throws that pass to take the lead in the
fourth quarter now, and the Packers offense is doing nothing.
And this is not the Packers offense we remember with
Paul Horning and Jim Taylor of the early sixties, the machine.
This is like late era Lombardi. There's not quite the
same level of talent. Right. They have runners carrying the

(09:47):
ball who they had to sign off the street because
they're starting players had all been injured. Yeah, this is
like Belichick here picking players up off the scrap heap
in the middle of the season, and all of a sudden,
you Chuck Murcine, a journeyman running back is making the
plays in the fourth quarter, and they get the ball
back with what four minutes left, and they had about

(10:10):
seventy yards to go and commence. Is one of the
great drives in NFL history, Right, It's the setup really
of the whole game, in the whole week We this
time of year especially, we have these games that happened
this weekend, it happened last weekend, It will happen every
weekend the rest of the season. We have huge setups
for games, and sometimes we're disappointed. But when we're not,
when when the game delivers kind of proportionately to the setup,

(10:31):
I think those are the games we remember, and sometimes
those are the ones that end up with the names,
the ones that end up impacting not just the guys
in the field, the players, the coaches, the broadcasters, the
fans and stands, but their families for generations after that.
And I think that's one of the neat unique things
at the heart of this film and it's really the question,
this question of what makes this game such a big deal,

(10:52):
as what kind of propels the whole hour along, starting
from really the first two voices you hear in the film.
They're the wives of the two quarterbacks. Cheryl Meredith, who's
the wife of Don Meredith, the Cowboys starting quarterback, and
Cherry Starr, the wife of Bart Star, the Hall of
Fame quarterback from the Packers. And and this is how
they start off the film in the no pun intended

(11:13):
Keith cold open, Just to start off, what is the
ice ball? What was it? For someone who doesn't know football,
has never heard of the game, what is the ice ball? Okay,
it's American football. It was the coldest game ever played.
Sent Bay froze death in the stands, the players fingers
all froze. They couldn't get their cleats to go into

(11:36):
the ground. And it was as cold as it is
at the North Pole. Oh and it was against the
mighty Green Bay Packers. It was probably the greatest moment
in football history for US and the Green Bay Packers
will be third time National Football League. Kevin Bay went brainway.

(12:01):
It just changed our lives and it provide us with
a great life, a lot of fun. Three who played today?
Present you Keys to this car. My whole life would
have been different, Your dad's life would have been different.
Not only did it break my heart, it wounded my soul.

(12:23):
You don't ever get over something like that. So well
that that's a really interesting place to start a movie
about this legendary football game, and we should note as
it approaches its fiftieth anniversary, which is a great occasion
to celebrate it. But it's pretty unexpected to start with
the wives of the two quarterbacks. How did we get there?

(12:46):
For Dave and I. We listened to those interviews, and
Cheryl Meredith in particular really stood out to us, like
she it's still so emotional about this game it happened
fifty years ago, Like that's that's crazy that that game
still has such an impact on her now. But the
subtle thing about that interview is she's talking to someone

(13:10):
that is obviously not your normal interviewer. Who is she
talking to? Who is doing the interviewing? Correct? He is
talking to her son, Michael Meredith. He was, as Dave
alluded to earlier, he is our narrative piece for this
whole film. So Michael Meredith is Don meredith son who
was the Cowboys quarterback during that game. And really this

(13:33):
film is different that we're taking a look at the
Ice Bowl more so from the loser's perspective and Michael
trying to figure out what happened to my dad during
that game and how did it why did it affect
my family so much as you hear his mom talked
about in the Coal Open. So, Paul, you're a showrunner

(13:53):
of the timeline, and so you you you play a
role in crafting all of these and figuring out how
are we going to attack these stories once you and
Ken Rodgers picked the subjects. So this is a really
interesting way in Yeah, it was a unique opportunity we
had in this one. And the only I'm thinking off
the top of my head this there's a similar model

(14:15):
that we we used last year. Um, we had Dan
rather it was the narrative spine of the sixty nine
Redskins film that Dave also worked on. And and in
that instance, David, you're you could remember, I mean Dan
was sort of a host as based on his what
his livelihood was being the Washington Bureau correspondent that year
of nine nine, when when Lombardi coach, but he was

(14:36):
also a fan, so he had this sort of dual role.
So I remember thinking at the time, well, this is
sort of a really neat intersection that we found through
this one person who also happened to be someone who
can articulate their viewpoint really well. Well, I think on
this film, the opportunity we got Keith answer question kind
of even up that anti because Michael was not only
someone who is He wasn't a participant in the game.
He was only about three months old, but his mom

(14:59):
was holding him as a baby back home in Dallas
as she watched the game. Uh, it's a it's a
story that obviously, as we've already touched on, has lived
in his family in a very compelling, provocative, in some
ways sad way his entire life as he's heard about it.
So he's sort of you could call him a participant,
but also, based on his background as a filmmaker and
a storyteller, he's someone who can also uh sort of

(15:22):
think about things narratively and explain them in a way
that a normal interview subject or even a even an
on camera host can't. I mean, Michael was both almost
a third person and first person at the same time
in putting this show together, but he had been pursuing
it on his own. I remember meeting him one day, oh,
you know, by the water cooler. Ken Rodgers is walking

(15:43):
him around with his family and introduced me to him.
You know, here's Michael Meredith, Don Meredith's son. He's working
on trying to tell the story of the ice Ball.
So he kind of was on his own, on his
own path, and we were aware that the fiftieth anniversary
of the ice Ball was coming up, and the two
storytelling pieces came together that way, maybe with a little

(16:07):
sprinkle of of of a great producer named Maura Matt
who helped bring it all together. I don't think that Michael,
when he was envisioning his own version of the ice
Pool was going to be told from a first person
point of view. I think he was just going to
do a fairly conventional narrative. And that's where Julia's idea really,
I think was a game changer for us, and it

(16:27):
was not something that occurred to him. For a guy
who has worked in Hollywood, he his ego was remarkably
very low level. He's a really chill dude, but and
I don't think he would have thought of this. But
Julia's idea was representing a younger audience. She said, I'm
interested in this stuff. I'm a packer backer and I

(16:48):
work at NFL films, but many people my age really
don't know that much and would not be that interested
in it. We need to find a personal thread, a
character actually in the film him who you can root
for and really be interested in to get involved in.
And that's when everything changed for us, because we presented
this idea to Michael and he said, this is great,

(17:11):
and then he channeled a very well decorated documentary called
My Architect that was made about ten years ago. Was
made by Nathaniel Khan, the son of the great architect
Louis Khan, who built many classic buildings all over the world.
He was a kid who didn't know his father very
well wanted to discover more about his dad through his work.
And Michael said, this is almost the same kind of

(17:32):
idea on a football scale, not not from an artistic scale.
But he was very intrigued by that, and I think
it gives us a narrative thread that anyone of any
age will be compelled to follow because it is so personal,
and the characters are so real and so emotional. People
do not hold back in these interviews. Some of them
are really quite touching, and when I watched some of them,

(17:54):
I've seen times as we've gone through the filmmaking process,
I'm still moved by them and just the sure level
of involvement and deep caring that they have. So we're
gonna talk to Michael a little later in the show.
One thing I'm interested in talking to him about is
the challenge of interviewing your mom uh and trying to
tease these emotions and these stories and these details. Like

(18:14):
any kid or most kids growing up, you you have
questions you want to ask the people in your family,
your parents, your grandparents. A lot of us don't get
around to doing it and and have that regret. But
this project kind of gave him a vehicle. I'm curious, Julie,
what is your How did it work for you? That
was the filmmaker working with someone and having to be
sort of respectful to them as a collaborator, and the

(18:34):
fact that this belongs to them and is pulling on
their heartstrings, but also doing your diligence to the for
the audience, on their behalf and and creating a compelling
story at the same time. You know, I thought when
we were gonna work with Michael that it was we're
gonna we were gonna have some difficulties and picking and
choosing because obviously his his whole heart is into this,

(18:55):
uh the story of the ice pool and and and
his dad. But he was pretty wonderful to with. I
have to say, like he he loved having you'll see
Cheryl is all throughout the ice bowl. He loved that
and she was very emotional and raw, and watching him
watch that, I was like, oh, he might want to
pull back a little, like, be a little bit more

(19:16):
protective of his mom. And he wasn't. I mean, he
thought that stuff was great. So it's pretty It's kind
of a once in a life. There aren't many stories
you can tell this way through either a parent talking
about their child when their child child is not gonna speak,
or vice versa in a way that they almost feel
the like they have to be a guardian of that story,
like you could. You could maybe feel keith more candid

(19:36):
to talk about yourself than you would about someone who
are you you were close to, and that the job
of trying to get them to do both is not
an enviable one. I don't think. The thing I love
about it, though, is that who doesn't love a guy
investigating like his dad, you know, his sort of mysterious,
super famous dad who he didn't know that well and

(19:56):
who kind of got a little dark maybe at the end.
And that story construct is just really really appealing in
its basic structure. The layers that you hear about from
Don's immediate and also uh short, medium, and long term reactions.
The emotions that we hear uh, both through the sound
we capture with him and through his family members, I

(20:18):
think are pretty strong. Really no lesson of depression and
he went into after this game which comes out and
some of these, some of the sound bites throughout the film,
this one in particularly here Michael, who we've alluded to,
but also Cheryl Michael's mom and Lance Rensel, that receiver
who caught what almost was the winning touchdown, uh, and
here the three of them are reflecting on the impact
that this game had on Don has left a big

(20:40):
scar on Don, and I think Donn has suffered more
from this because he feels it's a quarterback's job to
lead the team to victory, and he felt that he's
sincerely failed the team in the last two years, losing
to Green Bay. Of course, we don't agree with this.
They think you're superman, and he wasn't a superman. He
was just a man try his best. Dallas just needed

(21:04):
that break, especially your dad. We couldn't talk without just
bursting into tears. We were wounded, you know, So he
just wanted to go to bed, and so we didn't talk.
I don't think we ever really talked about it. It
was too painful. My dad came to this house right

(21:25):
after the Ice Bowl. My mom told me he came
back and just wanted to reflect. Maybe he was thinking
about the next chapter of his life, and I would
imagine the Ice Bowl had to have something to do
with that. My dad played one more season with the Cowboys,
then decided to retire at the age of thirty one.

(21:47):
He retired too young. I think he would have played
longer if to the Ice Bowl and just crushed us
so much, crushed him. I just can't get over how
cool it is that on Meredith's son frequently interviewing his
own mother, and the emotion that that you can feel
on both ends of it. Is extraordinary. Dave and I

(22:09):
would go with Michael when he would do some of
these interviews. We weren't with him when he was with
his mother, but it was interesting to watch Michael interact
with these people that knew his dad because they would
almost automatically say something very flattering about his dad, or
like tell like a funny story about his dad. So
it was that he even though Michael wasn't there at

(22:32):
that game, he didn't play with those guys, he already
had this instant connection with almost everyone he interviewed, which
I think helped him get some great interview bites. And
Don Meredith was a huge star in his own right,
wasn't he. He actually achieved greater fame after he retired
because he was on the original crew of Monday Night Football,

(22:53):
which started in and it was a totally different way
to broadcast the NFL on television, and he was a
major reason for that. He wasn't larger than life personality.
People tuned in every week to hear him give the
homespun corn pone version of the game. Howard Cosell was
the slick, big city lawyer, and the two of them

(23:16):
uh played these roles magnificently and you you had the
Red State Blue State before we knew what that was
going at it, but in a in a friendly and
very entertaining manner. And from that Don uh turned that
into an acting career as a spokesperson for many commercials
for a number of years throughout the seventies. He was
usually very high on the Q List, that's the for

(23:37):
the most popular people in America, the most recognizable people.
So he people who knew him from his Lipton Tea commercials,
many of them had no idea that he played ProFootball
going in when Michael Merritt is showing up at all
these all of his old teammates houses to go interview
them for for this movie, um that they're approaching it

(23:58):
is like not only their teammate, but but someone kind
of became a legend in pop culture for a long time.
And that respect is not just with his teammates, but
many of the packers who were interviewed for this show
because they knew him as a player, but got to
know him better as a broadcaster because many of them
continued to play after Don was broadcasting for ABC, and

(24:19):
so they had that relationship too. So there's an incredible
amount of respect for Don from the Packers, and in fact,
I think that carries over for everybody on both teams,
because these two squads went through a unique experience. If
it can never be duplicated, there will never be another
game like this. And to have survived that the way

(24:40):
that you would have Fraser and Ali survived the thrill
in Manila, it's a bond that only they can share,
and that really comes through in the film. We're gonna
talk to Michael about Orangey, a character who Julia helped
find and really broker a meeting between this sort of
off the wall Packer backer and Michael. But there's also
I mean, there were famous people in the like people

(25:00):
like to say, now how Tom Brady was in the
crowd at Candlestick Park the day to catch while they're
at lambeau Field. There was a Hollywood actor you who
came to become famous much later, who was there as
a young Packer fan. Uh, shivering with everybody else. First
Packer game. Everybody was pretty hunkered down because of the cold,
but also there was still tailgating and plenty of beer

(25:21):
and uh, it was a party. I got very close
to frostbite at the game. My feet by the time
I got home from the game, they were on fire.
I couldn't feel them, you know, and I they my
father was a doctor, put me in a hot bath
right away to kind of fall them out, and they
were very close to frostbite. Willem de Foe, who lights

(25:45):
up during it, I mean, this is again, this is
a big time Hollywood actor still lights up. You can
see the twinges of nostalgia and excitement on his face
when he talks about being in the crowd that day.
This could be just me, But when I whenever I
listened to a great actor's voice, I sit there and
wonder whether he'd be a good he or she would
be a good narrator. Because of the line of work
we're on, I think well into Phobi a good narrator.

(26:07):
It's a different kind of very distinct. Yeah, it's different.
It had to be a specific show for sure. So
Dave your your credits. We talked about on the Ice
Bowl film brought certain benefits and challenges to a project
like this, Julia. Among your other projects you work on
is hard Knocks, uh. And the interesting thing is to me,
it's we call it. We're all called producers and it's

(26:27):
all called directing or producing, But uh, what is the difference?
Just explained for the layman here kind of some of
the differences comparing contrast directing and producing and in the
moment topical embedded unscripted show like Hard Knocks versus a
long form doc like this Ice Bowl film. Uh, they're
very different, as you can imagine, not being directing and

(26:51):
at Hard Knocks. In the field, it is very in
the moment, and you could go on a shoot with
a player, I don't know whatever they're fishing or if
they're hanging out with their family, and you see things
that are happening there, and so you're kind of constantly
evolving with the show. And that show airs uh once
a week, so you really have to be on top
of your game. They're working with Michael Meredith is much

(27:13):
different than working with an NFL player. They're fantastic, but
you know you've got you have limited time with them.
You know, you you go to show up at their
house or whatever. You have thirty minutes to an hour
with Michael Meredith. We could really plan ahead like what
do we want to do? Um. Really, the only time
that I had to think on my feet. The most
was that a couple of the ceremonies that we went to,

(27:33):
the Dallas ceremony and the Packers ceremony where they were
honoring the players from the sixties, and then the shoot
with Orangey, because once we started shooting in Appleton, Wisconsin,
we collected quite a number of Packer fans wondering what
was going on. One thing I would like to interject,
Julia is an Emmy Award winning director of Hard Knocks

(27:56):
and Emmy Award winning director of All or Nothing, the
Amazon in season access show She's her credentials go far
beyond a grizzled veteran of the field. You know, we
described her as comparatively callows she's killing it out here.
But um, what I wanted to ask was to what

(28:17):
extent was Michael a storytelling partner and to what extent
was he subject? Well, I have to say, and Dave
went on a couple of these shoots too, so feel
free to try him in with any of this. But so,
whenever I was out in the field with Michael, I
I really was able to give him direction and he

(28:39):
was very receptive to it, and he would he would
present some ideas, but really, I think we tried to
be as authentic as possible to what is Michael actually
doing versus like, let's you know, you know, go walk
past this sign or anything like that, you know what
I mean. So, like, for instance, we went to the
Green Bay Press Gazette, and we did have a couple

(29:00):
of things you wanted him to look at, But we
wanted his conversation to be natural, and I didn't tell
him what to say. I didn't tell him what to do.
I just said, we have a couple of things here
that would be interesting for you to look at. So
really we just wanted to follow him and see him
talk with people. Even that happened again at we went
to another event where he was talking. You see it

(29:20):
in the film. He's talking with Jerry Kramer and they
have a very genuine conversation. We kind of got to
be flies on the walls for that. So I guess
to that extent, that's kind of like Hard Knocks are
all or nothing, because that's what we try to do
with those shows too. I think what's cool about it
is as time marches on and in the NFL history
goes forward, there's still all these great stories from the past.
And sometimes we're retelling them in new ways. Sometimes we're

(29:43):
on earthing them for the first time. And I think
in what you guys achieved here, it shows that with
the right voice and the right approach, even if you
can't interview the principles because they're they're no longer with
us or whatever the cases, they're still really compelling ways
to tell these stories and kind of not just preserve
the history of the game, but really continu and you
to examine it and move it forward and um help
us understand what came before. Well, I think without further ado,

(30:06):
then it would be a nice time to bring in
the narrator, the co producer, the first person voice of
this journey into the one of the greatest football games
ever play at the ice Ball. Let's talk to Michael, Meredith, Paul.
That sounds great, Keith, But before we do, how about

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(31:54):
So we're joined now by Michael Meredith, the son of
Don Meredith Dandy Don. Those who remember no by that name.
You don't remember him if you're too young or whatever
the case. Maybe this truly is one of those guys
that when your teachers say, you know, you ought to
look this guy up, you ought to find out about him.
He lived quite a life. Don Meredith is all that
and more. They're there are players in NFL history who
were entertaining, There are those who are accomplished. Uh, there

(32:15):
are those that are important. While he was all three
of those things. Little backstory, a little background on him.
He was a star at SMU Southern Methodist in the
late fifties early sixties, then with the Dallas Cowboys in
their infancy but really their first rise to greatness through
the sixties the mid mental late sixties, no less than
a broadcasting icon on the groundbreaking Monday night football booth

(32:40):
that made primetime network television uh presentation of NFL football
real thing beginning in the early seventies. Uh and and
here at NFL films really as well covered a figure
as anyone in that era other than maybe Vince Lombardi. Uh.
Don Meredith was captured I think largely because of his
relation ship that Steve Stable struck up with him. Don

(33:01):
Meredith was captured on the field, off the field, in
his personal life, talking about the game. Interviewed more than
maybe anybody. Um, so it's a pleasure to be talking
to you today, Michael, about your dad and about his
role in the Iceball film. Thank you. Let's listen to
Don Meredith here to give you a sense of what
this guy's personality was all about. We started to learn

(33:24):
even more about the significance of what his dad had,
you know, really been a part of and getting to
know more about his dad has just been a special
part of our family. He was a big deal. Then,
were you feel all right? He had some close ups. Well,

(33:47):
your dad was like a movie star. He was a comedian,
he was a singer. He was a show off. He
had a twinkle in his eyes, smiled all the time.
He made jokes. Don Meredith role three jeff On Hazel's
baby Boy out of Mount Vernon, Texas. Ride and Twilve
jumps the mid and I take a deep seat, Cowboy.
You got a long ride. That was in fact my

(34:11):
dad and my mom and my wife allow in one clip, Yes,
I meat Michael's wife was in there and his mom Cheryl,
who they both appeared in the film. Michael all with
all that, the one thing you told me, which I
thought was fascinating was when you were growing up and
someone found out your dad, just in general, was a
football player in the nineties sixties. There's one question you
heard over and over. What was it did he play

(34:32):
in the ice ball first one? And why do you
think that was? What was it about that game that
had resonated so much with everyone? Well, um, that's part
of what I tried to explore and learn with you know,
on this film. I knew about the conditions and that
those were, um, you know, unparalleled. Never again will there
be something like that. But I thought there was something more,
particularly because the majority people that asked me that question

(34:55):
were from the South and we're cowboy fans, so to
um to revere almost a game that we lost, I
thought was interesting and I wanted to explore that, and
that's what I hope we did with this show. I
gotta give a lot of credit to Dave Plout and
Julie Harmon and all the guys here that that if
I had to do this in a cave by myself,

(35:16):
there's no way, you know, I just wouldn't have the perspective.
So it's I'm really proud of how it turned out,
and um, a lot of credit goes to other other folks,
but that that part schooled. How did your perspective on
the game? How do you think it was formed based
on being in the South and Dallas versus maybe some
in your age who was born in Green Bay, Wisconsin. Well,

(35:38):
it was more exotic, the frozen tundra. I had never
been to Green Bay, and um, just the the insane
trivia around the game, a fan freezing to death and
the frost bite and the guy's the ifagtry to I
think with the NFL films captured, probably for the first time,

(36:00):
I'm with the steam, the ex hal coming out of
the guy's mouths, and it was just so dramatic looking
from the photographs to the film to the stories and
then when I just dreamt up in my mind green
Bay must be like a lambeau. So um, I think
it helped create a mythological sort of thing in my
mind as a kid, and a lot of people in
the South too. So this voyage of discovery, the sort

(36:22):
of quest that you went on in in diving into
this game, tell us a little more about that kind
of How long it's been going on, and and particularly
there was kind of an urgency that compelled you wanted
to go out and capture these stories. Why was that? Yeah,
I come from a scripted narrative world, so I've always
worked with actors and written and directed feature films, um,
not documentaries. And the original idea was actually to do

(36:44):
a an Ice Bowl movie with actors and the I
was shooting for the most authentic kind of football film
that we've had. UM. Both my dad and I were
responded and loved the um opening sequence and saving Private
Ryan when they're storm and Normandy and all that, and

(37:05):
a lot of the vets that saw that movie said
that's exactly what it was like. It took him back
to that place. So I thought that would be really
cool if I could do that with the with the
Ice Bowl. Because technologies changed and player consultants and um
even you know that Janus Kominski, the guy who shot it.
I wanted to hire him and talk to some actors.

(37:25):
And I talked to my dad about that idea, and
I had never done anything on football UM and asked
him what he thought and if I could have his
blessing and all that and his you know. His line was, well,
just tell it like it was. That was his his
main directive. I didn't get around to starting it in time,
but about four years ago now I guess it was.

(37:47):
I called up Bart Star. I thought, if I have
to start one place, I'll start with him. And I
remember the call vividly because I never met him. I
introduced myself on the phone and I told him I
wanted to do in this. First he said, very suspicious,
you know, the loser's son doing. He didn't say that,
but like if all people who would do this, why

(38:07):
would don Son do it? But said, come to Birmingham,
Welcome into my house. You can stay as long as
and then we did. We went went there for a
few days. On film Bart and Cherry, you quickly realized
that Barts, like everybody does who meets Bart Star and Cherry,
that Bart Star and Cherry are the two nicest people
in the entire world. Yeah. I can't think of a
more gracious person and consistently that way his entire life.

(38:33):
You know, we all have our highs and lows, and
I just got didn't have any lows. He's amazing as
a character. And Cherry and Bart Jr. The whole family.
They're welcomed me and m to make a film, which
was a gamble. I if I was them, I think, well,
what is this guy gonna focus on? Is it? Um?
He's gonna whine about the field system breaking or Cramer
or whatever it could be, and not not an iota

(38:55):
of that at that point. You know, it's interesting that
Bart asked you, why would the loser, why would the
loser's son want to want to make this movie? Did
you have an adequate answer at that point to that question?
But he didn't actually ask that um or use that
as terms. You just remember him saying very suspicious. And
then at some point there was a comment, this is

(39:17):
not really the politically timely to use this, but he said,
this is kind of like General Lesion doing this, you know,
film on the Civil War. Uh. It's well, okay, you know,
I don't take it whatever, um, But I think he
found it an interesting idea because the ice ball has
been chronicled and the story has been told, but not
from the cowboy perspective. So you were old enough to

(39:41):
watch as you're growing up to kind of watch your
dad in the show business portion of his career a
little bit more than the football portion of his career.
What sense of your of that game did you have
kind of starting out just from what you'd absorbed growing
up of the ice ball. Yes, I knew that a
lot of people on this I felt like if the
weather had been different, the outcome might have been different.

(40:05):
And the real big discovery that I made through the
process of researching and doing this was that a lot
of people felt like there was a victory underneath the defeat,
which we can talk about later, but um that that
I sensed, that's that something else, Like it's not just cold,
and it wasn't just the frost bite and all that stuff.

(40:26):
There's something more to the game. What's interesting here is
there's a real process. You start out wanting to make
a scripted drama using Spielberg's cinematographer, and you wind up
using the actual archival NFL Films footage and making a
documentary with NFL Films, which is quite a that's quite
a journey in itself. And then there's the journey you

(40:48):
took of just answering the questions you had that led
you to wanting to tell this story in the first place. Yeah,
and to jump back to what you said a little earlier.
There was an urgency because I think it's close to
a dozen folks have passed away since I started this journey,
and um, players and referees and announcers and and that

(41:10):
just I've never done in documentary before, So that's an
unusual ticking clock as a producer of directors like, I
gotta get there, I gotta talk to this person because
I just don't know if they'll be healthy or alive,
you know, tomorrow. So there is some keeper of the
flame thing that you feel, a responsibility that you that

(41:31):
comes with doing a documentary. When did you know that
it was going to be a documentary and not a
scripted film. The next step of of trying to do
a feature that's based on one game, um, which is
a very hard pitch because it's you know they, where's
the love story? Where's the you know? Was um, why
don't you do a documentary as part of the research

(41:54):
that will lead to the scripted narrative. So it shifted
to a documentary pretty early, like I think thin I said,
it's about four years ago. UM, and that became so
interesting to me and such a sprawling animal that you
have to you can't control, you follow leads, you become
an investigator and anthropo, I mean all of it. Um.

(42:17):
I just got consumed and and fell in love with
making a documentary. So then the fiftieth anniversary was that
became the next ticking clock. And now we're coming up
on it real fast. And what if anything you learned
about your dad, what perspective on your dad maybe was
impacted by by this research of a huge change in
my perception and understanding of him. Um, definitely in the

(42:41):
decade of the sixties, for sure, And I think it
came mostly from his peers. Um. The process of making
this had me reconnect with a lot of the guys
and players and others. And it's been a while my
dad's he passed away in two ten, um, but kind
of went into hiding earlier than that, moved to Santa

(43:04):
Fe and sort of disappeared, and a lot of his
buddies missed him, and there was a void where um
he you know, where he used to be. So when
I came back, just vicariously as the sun, I was
welcomed and embraced, and these guys really opened themselves up
and were I couldn't have been more gracious but I

(43:24):
learned how much they loved him and how much of
a leader he was to them. And when you have
when you have guys that are titans and larger than
life to start with, and then they showed their admiration
for someone that was a leader to the leaders. Um,
it really impressed me and touched me, and I had

(43:45):
a whole new level of pride for what my dad did.
What's the one or one or two things you'd love
to ask your dad right now about this game? You know,
I think it's actually something that I would love to
tell him, And it's what I learned in this process
is that he did not let his team down, and
he did not let his city down, and he did

(44:07):
a tremendous amount for for the people that he loved.
And I think he he maybe didn't fully realize that,
um or at least as much as I would love
to let him know. Hey, I've heard this from everybody,
and I'm a good researcher and I can prove it.
So I would love to tell him that what didn't

(44:28):
you get to do in this film or what did
you learn about how what it takes to make a
documentary that surprised you? Yeah, it could be unique to
this this type of doc. But it was really difficult
to figure out what what is interesting to me because
it's my dad and his journey and like you say,
a bit of a father son's story, and what will
be interesting to everybody else. In the process of Michael's journey.

(44:50):
There's some handful of things that come out in the
show that were things that he found that we captured
in kind of a neat way, and a lot of
them are based on the people you met, and here's
one of them. One thing I learned about these packer
fans is that some took home more than just frostbite.
This is Gene, more commonly known as Orangey. He stole

(45:10):
my dad's cape, but he doesn't know yet that I'm
Don's son. They had built some temporary dugoats and they
had a couple of big hunter blowers blown in and
I said, I know where I'm going. They said, you
can't go there. I said, the hell I can. Haven't
you know you got a few beers in you? Of course,
So I just jumped across the fence and walked over

(45:33):
and sat down in the dugoat. Meredith happened to be
next to me when the Cowboys got the ball, Landry
Holler's offense cat and he throws his cape off, and
I look at that I put it on. I look
like a football player. Now, did you ever think that

(45:54):
fifty years after the ice ball, Don's son would come
looking for that cape? Come on, Michael Meredith, sir, here
we go meet you officially guessed, yea orange said I
can keep the cape. Looks like it's about my size.

(46:15):
But I declined his kind offer. As it turned out,
my dad probably didn't need that jacket. In the third quarter,
when the Dallas offense began to heat up, like any
other adventure film where the sun goes back to uh
to avenge the father. Now, you didn't want to take
the cape to give to your your children someday you
resisted the temptation. Oh, I'll get it, I'll get the cape.

(46:36):
Is cape is awesome. Yeah, it's awesome. That great color
shade of blue. The Cowboys never used anymore that they
wore that that thing is I can't believe you didn't
walk out of house with that thing. You know, it's
all in good time, cold plate, right, sir. But you
know that was a fun sequence in his first question
I asked him is how when your name is Orangey,

(46:57):
how did you get that name. He's like, oh, I
stole created oranges when I was five years old and
I've been called that ever since. He's a real thief,
this guy. It was a dent of thieves. We went
into this this old little bar where they just had
a bunch of stuff. But yeah, apparently he swiped that
and we caught him on YouTube bragging about it. Well,
there will tell us about some of the other places,

(47:18):
sort of the the addicts in the basements and the
libraries and sort of the Indiana Jones Trail that you
went on and where it brought you. Yeah, well I
did hit a lot of libraries and Donna Dallas a
lot of old archives and stuff that hadn't been seen before,
transferred before. And then just kind of odd serendipitous meetings,
like I was at a film screening with um an

(47:41):
actor that that everybody is. He's actually just got nominated
for a Golden Globe and his name is William Dafoe
and I was talking to him about this project and uh,
you know the game, and he goes, yeah, that's yeah, No,
I remember, I remember it all and I was like, wow,
you're pretty young, did you did you see it? Now?
I was there forty yard line. It's incredible. So he

(48:02):
was a twelve year old kid and William to Foe
is his dad's neighbor. Couldn't go last minute ticket and
he went and sat through the whole game, And that
was just coincidence that has happened to run into him.
But I think when you start working on something and
it gets in your head and you're you're talking about
it more and it gets out in the universe, that
some of those things come to you, and that one
that one did so, so William's in the movie too.

(48:23):
As it went on, did the narratives start to take
shape in ways that were unexpected to you? Yeah, I
think it's a combination of part of a part of
what you do as a filmmaker. Like you say, you're
telling the story, and every time you tell it, you
watch and see how people are reacting to different things,
and after a while, certain elements always get an interesting response,
and then you gotta put that on the list of

(48:45):
maybe we should include this. So you are kind of
pitching everybody through the course of making it to see
what lands and what resonates and UM that that's part
of the part of the process. It's fun. You know
you can use no one knows that, but you're using
every buddy as a test audience. Yeah, you want to
see what people respond to. You know, you mentioned it. It

(49:05):
It almost sounded like a pitch process when you talked
to bart Star. What was that conversation when you asked
your mom about wanting to interview her to tell this story.
She she had no choice, like, Mom, you're doing this.
Her Her reluctance was, I don't want to say anything.
It's gonna hurt anybody's feelings. And you know, there's there's

(49:27):
one thing that I found is it was just a challenge.
Goes back to an earlier question, is a lot of
these guys have established the image that they like in
popular culture and UM and understandably so. And they they're
they're moving on in years and they want their their
legacy to stay intact, and they don't really want to

(49:50):
um you try to dig deeper and get him to
tell more personal stories or if they were scared at
that moment, or if they regret things, And it's hard
because because they don't want to tarnish what's what's been
harvested all these years and my mom didn't want to
do that either. One story that I'd love is on

(50:11):
the defensive side as that drives happening Jethro Pugh. The
guys are having to smack him because he is in
the huddle arguing with his mother, who he's convinced has
come off the sidelines, and it's telling him it is
too damn cold to be out here playing football. Get inside,
are you crazy getting And he would say, mom, come on,
and it was hypothermia and the you know, the game

(50:33):
i Q element the brain having to deal with the
temperature and stay focused. He was literally hallucinating that his
mom was in the huddle. That's like some John krak
Our stuff right there beyond the sports film area. Yeah,
we moved in a different genre here. Yeah. I was
glad nobody started to like eat each other. It could happen,

(50:56):
you know. But they were burning the seats to stay warm,
and it was, you know, it was pretty but that's well.
That's the other thing though. If you love sports, you know,
forget about football. If you understand what sports is, if
you've ever played a game in your life, then you
should be able to watch this film and and and
watch the ice ball and understand the depth of the

(51:17):
achievement of everybody who was on the field that day,
win or lose. Yeah, Yeah, I find that the curiosity
for the game even outside of America traveling and you know,
the people know this, they've heard of the game, even
if they haven't. They don't follow the NFL, they don't
know prepars. And I think that it's the conditions. But
any type of competition where it's a man's finest hour

(51:40):
kind of thing, you have to dig deep and you
have to find something that you didn't know was there.
It transcends like you say, a football game or there's
something something larger um that people are fascinating within this
game and that I have been and remained that way too.
So after having said all that, then you started out
with this goal of this this feature film presentation. Is

(52:02):
that goal been satiated through this documentary experience or further peaked?
Is that? Is that still lot on the horizon sort
of the filmmaking bucket list for you? I would love
to do that. I think the time was around the
fiftieth you know, I just think it's uh, it is
an unconventional idea. It's a bit of a risk. It's
probably like, um, what was it a hundred and thirty

(52:22):
two hours or twenty three hours where it's like you
pitch that a guy gets stuck between a rock and
that's the movie. Yeah, James Franco, Right, Yeah, I was
really surprised. I was just riveted by that capture my
attention and I didn't get bored. And I know that
this game has that. But when you pitch it, um again,
extremities in great danger. Yeah, that's the that's the genre

(52:44):
we're after in one location, you know, And yeah it is.
But he lost his arm. So there have been films
made based on NFL films documentaries before. Do you know
that Invincible? Yeah, was made a producer here named Pete
de Stefano. We used to do these pieces for ESPN

(53:04):
called Distant Replay on Monday nights and they will play
him in the Monday night pregame show, I think, and
it would be a five minute feature about an old
player that's forgotten or an old game. And he did
a feature on Vince Papali and somebody in Hollywood saw
it and said we should make a movie out of that.
And Pete de Stefano actually left here and went and
worked on the movie and it obviously Invincible was a

(53:26):
terrific film. But I would not be surprised at all
if somebody saw this film, this timeline the ice Ball
film and said let's let's make a movie. Well, I'm ready.
I love to do the Ice Ball as a film,
and I got a lot of actor buds that are major,
major names that would do it in a heartbeat. Dafoe
has got to play Lombardi and I didn't talk Tom

(53:48):
about it, but it's and I hate to actually mention
any names. I don't want to pay anybody down, but
there is the one role. I've been doing films for
fifteen or so years, and every time I talked to
an actor, what do you want to do? What? What
if something could come your way? Would it's it's at
sports most like a boxer. Every act reactor wants to

(54:09):
play a boxer in some kind of movie. But there's
a real fast, interesting thing with actors idolizing and wanting
to be more like a gladiator, would be more like
a professional athlete, and then vice versa. You know, my
dad included he wanted to get into acting. But um,
so I knew the cask would be great and visually

(54:29):
you could be a lot of fun and we could
get a good crew. Who would play your dad? That
is a hard question. That is a really tough question. Um,
when I was this is I guess when I was
talking to my dad about it, it it would be almost
seven years ago, and Chris Pratt was was a guy
that I was thinking of back then. Um, he's a
little bit older now, but it's a tough one. Chris

(54:50):
Pratt could still do it's he's still in his matinee
idle days. Yeah, well we can start shooting soon. Let's
get it on. Yeah, you know whenever tween Guardian of
the Galaxy. Uh, it's a really difficult thing to cast
when it's your it's because it's my dad. But also
he was pretty enigmatic character and hard to pin down.

(55:11):
Um and just I mean I did a movie called
The Open Road and it was loosely inspired by um
he was an ex baseball guy. But Jeff Bridges is
who I cast, and he really nailed it. He got
my dad down. Well. So he's a pretty good actor.
He's a pretty good actor. A young Jeff would be
great your Dad certainly was a dude. Yeah, they were.

(55:34):
They were dudes. Fantastic actor and a great person. Was
honored to work with him. But yeah, tricky question. I
don't know. Well, Michael, this has been awesome talking to you.
Like we get to talk to the filmmakers on this podcast,
we sometimes get to talk to the talent. But to
have someone who was such a close relationship to the show,
UH from a character standpoint, one of the probably the
main figure, but also UH from a filmmaking standpoint, is

(55:58):
a pretty unique opportunity. So I want to thank you
end for your time, and of course thank you for
all your great work on the show. It's a great show.
If you if you know the ice Bowl, watch it.
You'll learn new things. If you don't know the ice Ball,
definitely watch it. UH. This is required knowledge for any
football fan. Thanks Michael, Thank you guys. That was Michael Meredith,

(56:27):
the narrator and UH producing partner of the timeline Ice
bawl Son of Dandy. We're back with Mr Plout, MS Harmon,
the producer, editors of the film and the directors. So
let's take our last few minutes here, Mr Plout, to

(56:47):
grill you and I think where we should start is
how you came to NFL Films. Well, this is my
forty second season with an NFL Films, but I have
five previous years of experience in the National Football League.
I started at the age of seventeen. I was still
in high school when I began working for the San

(57:10):
Diego Chargers. I was lived in San Diego at the time.
I was hired to be a camp kid, and I
worked at their summer camp for five summers doing all
kinds of different jobs. And one of them was occasionally
helping cruise when they came in to do features or
something like that if they needed to be driven around
or set up interviews with players. And in nineteen seventy three,

(57:32):
Steve Sable and Phil Tuckett and other crew members came
out to their camp and Irvine, California, and they were
doing a feature on their Special Teams coach. The Charger
Special Teams coach guy named Ron Ratman Waller. So, uh,
the PR guy with the Chargers, Jerry Wind said, NFL
Films is coming out. You're going to be their driver

(57:52):
to get them whatever they need. So I just hung
with them during that time that they were there and
was able to, I guess ingratiate myself with him, But
I was not seeking a job. My goal was I
as a film major at Northwestern and my plan was
to stay in California and go to Los Angeles and
work in TV or film there. So I really didn't
entertain the idea of coming to NFL Films. But I

(58:14):
ended up doing a paper in a documentary film class
at Northwestern on NFL films. It ended up being published
in an academic journal. So just as a professional courtesy,
I sent it to Steve, and uh, Steve also had
agreed to be interviewed for that paper, so we've had
additional conversation. Likely story he sent it as a professional Curtis,
I did because I was I was working. I was

(58:35):
actually working in broadcasting at the time in San Diego.
Was an on air personality. Hard to believe, I know,
But anyway, Steve got it and it happened to come
two days after one of the producers was going to
announce that he was going to leave to start his
own production company in Colorado. It was getting late in
the summer. They needed to get another We were called
editors back then. We weren't we were not high flutin producers.
We were editors. So he said, remember that guy from

(58:58):
San Diego and the guy can obviously right, you know
it's football. He called the after he'd gotten the paper,
said would you be interested in interviewing for a job here,
because you know this is great stuff. I said, sure,
I've never been to Philadelphia before. I figured I could,
you know, see the Independence Hall, get a che stack,
you know, the whole thing went in. They interviewed me,
and I got the I showed up in a lime

(59:19):
green polyester leisure suit. In spite of that, I still
got the job offer. And I said, well, I'll do
this for a few years and come back, and forty
two years later, still here. Tell one great story about
your time with the Chargers. Well, the probably the most
interesting thing was that I got to know John Unitis
extremely well. John was traded in the Chargers that this

(59:42):
is at the twilight of his career, really a shadow
of his former self. He was in I guess early forties,
had a lot of injuries, so he was constantly having
to be driven to the doctor during training camp. So
I took him. We were there probably twice a week,
so sometimes these drives to the doctors were forty five
minutes from a camp, so we spent a lot of
time in the car and in waiting rooms. And what

(01:00:05):
an education this was for me to be able to
hear stories and to learn about the game from the
guy who many still believe is the greatest quarterback of
all time. I know there's Montana and Brady fans, and
they certainly can make their case, but at that time,
Johnny you was considered the best quarterback years old. Yeah,
it was about nineteen at the time, it wasn't there

(01:00:25):
a culture clash with you Dinas in those chargers of
the of the early sec Well, yes, they're there. What there?
There was some a few members of the squad who
were known to imbibe in cannabis after the meals and
before the meetings. By the way, the Charges only won
two games that year, so you can draw your own conclusions.

(01:00:46):
So John would be in the dormitory, he would he
would smell the the weed and he would he came
over to where I was because A I had a
television uh and B I had a cooler filled with
Corus beer, so the combination was irresistible. So he'd come
over and he'd say Grouchok, that was my nickname because
I looked like Groucho Marks back then. He said, they're

(01:01:08):
smoking some rope over there. I don't want any part
of that. So he came over and I was a
safe haven, so he would drink beer instead. I guess
everybody has their own vice. But this is Johnny You,
buzz cut, black high tops, Johnny You, powder blue, Johnny
the powder blue Johnny You with the pots smoking early
seventies San Diego chargers, and his refuge. His one place

(01:01:32):
to get away from the madness, the reefer madness, was
Plout and with plouts permission. Because in Plott's office, which
really is a you're talking about unique architecture. Earlier, if
there was a unique piece of interior design in this building,
it your Your office might be the most unique. He
has what I can only describe as the bubble head Army,

(01:01:55):
which is hundreds and hundreds of of bubble heads of
all wall box of sports and political and cultural life,
in addition to an incredible library and other mementos. But
relevant to this conversation is the eight by ten black
and white photo of you and Johnny You personalized grout
show quaff in full effect food Man Show Mustache. Uh No,

(01:02:17):
I don't. It was not quite. It was not the
Joe Willy name of food manch. It was just a yeah, yeah,
it was a groun show mustache, okay with with plots
from mission. We're gonna put this up on social media
after this pod is posted, because I mean, if anything
could bring this story even to a higher level, it's
the image of the two of you together. I mean,
if there was ever a chapter one of a memoir,
those car rides sound like they were it. He was

(01:02:40):
pretty great. He had a very dry sense of humor,
and I think he appreciated that someone as young as
myself was as steeped in history, because he I guess
his experience was that that teenagers in those days really
weren't that interested in that, and the fact that I
knew about all the players and many of the games
that he was in. I think he found that to

(01:03:01):
be that I was a receptive audience, and so I
think he was more forthcoming than he might have been
with somebody else. Did you ever encounter him later on
in your career to have a chance to interview him
and bring that any of that back up. I did not.
But when NFL Films produced The United Show for HBO,
he was interviewed by one of our colleagues and uh
he asked John if he remembered Gratcho goes, oh, sure,

(01:03:23):
a big smile on his face. He did remember me,
and that was that was because that was like twenty
years later, but I was It's nice to be remembered
by a left Nobody could ever forget Dave Julie. You're
not part of a lineage that starts with John Unitas.
I don't, gosh, I'm trying to think so I'm looking
at my career, which is obviously very small in comparison
to yours day. But I will say I did start

(01:03:44):
doing something I think is wise of starting to keep
a journal of all my adventures in NFL Films I
will sell to you all when I retire. I'm starting
to keep track of Who've interviewed, who I've done shoots with,
just so it doesn't escape my brain. You have an
equivalent story to John of you running to grow show
to the embrace of Crow Show and his colorful Of

(01:04:04):
course I can't tap that. One last question I have,
what is one thing that Steve Sable taught you that
you've never forgotten he I don't know if it was
something that I wasn't aware of, but he reinforced it,
and it was how important it is that you have
fun while you're doing the work that you do. And

(01:04:28):
he said that you know, you take the work that
you have, but make that work enjoyable in a way
that that will help you create a better product. You'll
be happier, you'll be more committed. And just his setting
those parameters and allowing us to uh stretch our imaginations
to do really off the wall things. Because Steve himself

(01:04:50):
was in many ways just such a crazy character. I
was able to do a film with the great improvisational
comedian Jonathan Winters where he played Jonathan played thirty different characters,
and I came up with this concept and I worked
on that film with Dave Douglas, who's also retiring with
me in a couple of months. When when we ended

(01:05:11):
and we just let our imaginations run wild because we
had this mercurial comedic talent and Steve was the person
who encouraged us to do that. He said, the more
off the wall it is, the better. In fact, I
think you guys remember that Steve had a spectacular failure competition,
he would give a cash prize to somebody who came

(01:05:32):
up with the most outrageous idea for a film, and
that even if it ended up being a bomb, he
wanted to give you the courage to be able to
do that. So when you ask what did he teach me,
it was more an opportunity that he gave myself and
everybody else here remarkable. Well, thanks for everything you've taught us, Dave.
You can't replace the institutional knowledge of where things are,

(01:05:55):
what we've done, how we've done it before, and how
we can do better. So thanks for everything you've you've
taught me and and all the rest of us younger
generation and me when I was first about four years
after I got here, David and I did the did
Blue Diamond, the seventy fifth anniversary History of the New
York Giants together, yep, and I and I said to myself,

(01:06:16):
this guy, cause I think he's got some talent. And
we went up to the premier in a limo, and
I brought my son, who was in fourth grade, who
had never been a limo before, and that night the
three of us all met some of the greatest legends
and giants history, numerous Hall of famers, and uh, I
don't know, was that your first time seeing some of
these guys. I think you were a little story I
I sure was, and I you know, and I was,

(01:06:39):
you know, a guy in my early forties, so uh
it was great. So yeah, I remember that experience very well.
It was. It was a lot of fun to make
that film. And it's guys like both of you and
our colleagues. I leave the place, I think in in
good hands and I look forward to seeing what you do,
uh when I'm not around to mess things up. Thank you.
Watch did Eve's final long production, The ice Ball. The

(01:07:03):
Timeline The ice Ball A story told by someone who
knows better than anyone, along with his co producer Julia.
Thanks to both of you for joining us here today
and giving us a little more on the film. Great.
It was great having you guys. Thank you for having
us all right hit it. Thank you to Steve Moseley,

(01:07:26):
our engineer, Rich Owens, our producer Michael Meredith for joining
us in studio. Thanks to Dave Plout and Julia Harmon,
the co producers at The Timeline The ice Ball. Follow
us on all our social accounts NFL Films, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook,

(01:07:49):
go to YouTube and watch our stuff. Watch all our
shows on TV. We'll see you next time. Bye Paul,
Bye Keith