The NFL Films Podcast with Emmitt Smith

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(01:03):
gift card. Again, that's pod survey dot com slash Films. Today,
on the NFL Films podcast, we take a deep dive
into Emmett Smith, a football life with the producers of
the film, Paul Monusky and Chris Weaver. We will speak

(01:26):
with Emmett Smith himself, get his reactions to the latest
documentary about his life and career, and we'll spend a
few quality minutes with noted NFL Films guru Greg Cosell,
who will help us dive into the x is the Ohs,
the wise of the all time Russian King Emmett Smith.
I'm Paul, I'm Keith. Welcome to the NFL Films Podcast.

(01:50):
Listen to this music. Hold up, that's the good stuff
Computer cowboys. If you didn't know Sam Spence was capable
of a disco space oddity before you heard that, well
now you do. Welcome to the podcast, folks, here from

(02:13):
the home of America's football movies and Mighty Mount Laurel,
New Jersey. I'm Paul Camerada, I'm Keith Cosro and we're
here to talk about Emmett Smith with the producers at
the show, our own Paul Manusky, Hi, how are you?
And his partner on the film, Chris Weaver, how do you?
How are you? You guys have a combined how many
years of service here at NFL Films. Well, I'm ten,

(02:34):
so it's easy math ten ten plus whatever you got.
It was an intern in O two, the year Emmett
Smith broke the record, So that was my first season.
So you guys do the math. I've been here ever since.
That's I believe that's fifteen. I really think you could
have done the years century of brilliance join it joins
us here today in the studio, really ground things to

(02:55):
a halt right out of the gate. Math will do that?
Do you do the math? Give me break, Weaver. So, um, guys,
terrific job with the Emmett Smith football life. We don't
often get to spend as much time with the subject
of a football life as as you both did. And
the place that uh and we'll bring him it in

(03:18):
in a few minutes, but the place I wanted to
start was a really neat idea that um Emmett brings
up early in the film talking about his high school coach,
and that really carries through his entire life. Well, this
was an idea that was discussed early on when the
treatment was initially written, and we'll discuss that later, that

(03:40):
his high school coach was the first person to tell him,
you know, it's a dream until you write it down.
And once we discovered that he sort of had done
that his whole life after his coach taught him that
in high school. Uh, we realized this is a major
driver for who he is and we can thread this
through the whole film, and uh, I think we delivered that.
And hell, and I'll say this, people have seen the
film that two comments I get most on are him

(04:02):
writing down his goals and him and the stores locker
showing you know this, historical archives from his football career.
So it definitely resonated with viewers that he writes down
these goals. Now we're gonna we're gonna play this clip
in a moment. It's his Emmett and his and his
high school coach, Dwight Thomas. Um. But you know one
thing I wanted to add is just in almost every

(04:23):
episode of A Football Life, one of my favorite things
is there's always something you want to show your kids.
I got a seven year old and eight year old,
and there's always something. And this was the thing from
from the Emmett film that I was I immediately wanted
to watch with them. So let's give it a listen.
When Emmett arrived at a Scambia high in the program,

(04:43):
had won only three games over the previous three seasons.
They had also just hired a new head coach, they
have scored one touchdown the year before, and they hadn't
had a winning team in the history of the school. There.
The White had this way of motivating to all of us.
I had the players right down their goals on three

(05:05):
by five card and put it in their lockers, because
it's a dream until you write it down and then
it becomes a goal. So place your goal sheet ret
next to your mirror so you understand why you're coming
to this locker every day and what you were doing
it for. And and he's right. So one of the

(05:25):
cool things about that the White Thomas interview, and obviously
we can't use everything, but the White Thomas said that
when he was hired, he went to all the middle
schools there were three middle schools in Pensacola, just to
introduce himself and say, look, I'm gonna be coaching university
football and I'm a new coach in town, and I'd
like to see the eighth graders or whatever. He said.
Only one eighth grader came up to him and shook
his hand and introduced himself, and that was Emmon Smith.

(05:48):
He said he was wearing a college shirt slacks and
walked up to Emma Thomas and said hi. Coach Thomason said, Hi,
how Emma Smith? And I'd like to play football for
you next year. And so even the goal sheet is
great and it's an amazing thing that happened. But Emmett
sort of brought some class. It just showed that he
had class and dignity even when he was in eighth grade,

(06:10):
even before he started playing football. Emmett was not shy
about articulating his goals once Coach Thomas introduced him to
the idea of the index card. Here's Emmett's first interview
he ever did with NFL Films, which we dug up from.
I believe, Jim Do, You're gonna make it as a

(06:31):
great running back into for us. I'm not great, so
I've made it yet, What do you have to do
to be great? I got a lot more than what
I'm doing. Uh. For one, I gotta help leading Cowboys
to a Super Bowl. Not only that, we gotta win it. Another,
I mean I gotta rack up a bunch of stats.

(06:52):
What a good stats stats uh at at the top
where all the where Walter Payton and Doors said, and
those guys are I gotta be up there with those
guys would considered be great. Well. See, as Keith pointed out,
that's the first interview we ever did with him at Smith.
That interview took place here out outside of a Mount
Laurel in Philadelphia, and longtime senior producer Jerry Rayml conducted

(07:14):
that interview and him at Smith walks in with that
goofy coat and a hat that he used to travel
with on the road. And you know this is before
him at Smith had done much and so Jerry said
he didn't really he wasn't sure how seriously to take
this guy yet. And in fact he had to get
him and out of the chair to make room for
this bigger interview that day that was about to walk in,

(07:35):
and that was Eugene the hit machine Lockharts. So they
had to actually remove him it from the chair to
get Eugene Lockhart's big interview done while he was here
in Philadelphia. And you say, goofy coat, like goofy coat
doesn't do with justice. He's gonna describe the hat in
the code. It's a white mink coat with this huge
bowler hat that he's wearing in a regular interview on
According to Rymal Jerry Raymol, that was even more of

(07:55):
that coat that you can't really see in the in
our framing of the image. But uh, it's definitely quite
a site now, and it's interesting to see how far
he's come without changing a whole lot. Emmett literally took
the index card idea to the NFL. Here's his teammate
James James Washington talking about his index card from his
rookie year. He Jes got drafted. We're about to play

(08:18):
Domino and I grab a piece of paper and he
was kind of embarrassed, you know, He's like, oh, no,
don't use that paper. And I looked down and the
piece of paper had three things written on it. Lead
Russia team MVP in Pro Bowl. This is a young
man that had not even stepped on the field, hadn't

(08:39):
even stepped into a practice yet. The unique thing for
me hearing those bites and hearing your story about him
in eighth grade is, yeah, obviously this is a guy
that's wired with confidence. But at the same time, I
don't have one recollection of him watching him when I
was growing up or sort of seeing him here at
films doing doing research or whatever. Never came across as
a hot dog or a prima donna on the old

(09:00):
in in any way shape or for him that I
can recall. So he's got the supreme confidence. Some probably
would call it arrogance, but doesn't exude it one bit.
I mean, just shows up, goes to work, and it
is consistent from pretty much from the cradle. It sounds
like yeah. And that's the thing too. I mean, he
was the oldest in his family, Like his dad drove
a bus. Like, it's not like he came from this

(09:22):
legacy family and had all these great at like he
was it. That was it. And his brothers ended up
playing football after him. But so where does it come from?
Like that's what you're saying, where does this confidence going whatever?
It was just from his mom and his dad, and
obviously that had a big effect on him. I always
love the stories where someone accomplishes something historic and you

(09:43):
learn that they they set out to do that thirty
forty years ago whatever, however many years ago, and neither
didn't tell anybody or had it written somewhere. There's some
proof somewhere that this person this is what I'm gonna
do with my life. It makes you like realize how
really worthless your life is. But I haven't ever written
down anything, and I have accomplished nothing. Start writing things

(10:06):
now you get some index. Clearly, That's why I'm gonna
show it to my kids. Maybe they can accoustant be
better than dead. That won't be hard. Let's talk to
Emmett Smith. Emmett, Hey, this is Keith Cosro. I'm with

(10:30):
Paul Camarado. We host the NFL Films podcast, and I
am with uh Paul Monusky and Chris Weaver, the two
guys who produced your Football Life. So this is this
is always fun for us to get to do and
for you to get to share a few minutes to
talk to the guys who made your documentary, especially so

(10:52):
you can tell them what they did wrong. That's a
short list, though, right, Emmett, Yes it is. So this
is not long at all because I think you guys
did a great job. Well, thank you. So what was missing?
Today I'm celebrating the one year anniversary of my mother's death.

(11:15):
And see, she was such an influence in terms of
my life. I think, um, you know, just maybe a
scene around the grave site because she actually, um, so
my brothers and I, Eric and I up to the

(11:37):
Salvation Army to get us actually signed up for the
game of football. And she was such an influence in
the world of sports for us as well as a
motherly icon in terms of what every mother should be
to every child. I just wish I could have could
have emphasized that a lot more in terms of, you know,

(12:01):
the reason why we played the game. Sometimes it's not
necessarily about the game, sometimes beyond the game and the
people who we played for, and uh, she was definitely
one of those one of those people. It's funny we
we consider doing that when we when we decided to
go back to Pensacola with Himmett, we said, you know what,
should we can should we take him back and see

(12:21):
uh and go back to where his mother might be
buried or do something like that. But it's one of
those things that we never know how sensitive that might
be because at the time, you know, she wasn't she
hadn't passed that long before we had come down there.
So we definitely considered it. But this is a good
lesson for us. You know, we always wonder should we
ask something like that, And sometimes we don't know, and
I always say, we gotta think big, and then you
can always come back and change or apologize later. So

(12:43):
I think you did a great job in terms of
covering the story itself. I think the angle which came
at it from was basically every where I've gone, I've
left left the place better. And I love to transition
to the Arizona Cardinals and what I meant to their
is Onna Carton, because I've never heard them talk about
it in that perspective, and to hear Laric Fitgerald and

(13:07):
uh Adrian Wilson, uh talk about it from that perspective, Uh, man,
it was awesome. It just great, because you really don't
know the impact that you have on others lives until
you actually have them talked about you, and and and
and here their perspective in terms of what they gained.

(13:27):
Laric Fitzgerald carried two suits on the road all because
of something that I said. Uh, things like that. Uh,
you know, you just don't know the impact that you
have on folks. So when you when years go by
and you have a chance to reflect or people have

(13:48):
a chance to even comment in terms of what you
meant to them. Uh, it's always a humbling experience in
the humbling feelings, just to know that you had an
impact that was much rather than this football. It's great
that I think the guys made a great decision to
spend the whole segment of the film on the years
in Arizona, because not many people realize it, but I

(14:10):
think that's one of our favorite parts of this series
and one of the one of the reasons it's called
a Football Life is because we cover the whole thing.
For me to z and in your story, seeing the
impact you had at every level from high school to
college through Dallas in Arizona was eye opening to all

(14:31):
of us. You're not a guy who was, you know,
beating the odds. You were the best player at every level,
and you went to every place, and you and you
and you delivered at every place and often and in
some cases helped build a programmer in every case helped
turn around a program. What do you trace that too?

(14:52):
You know, I just think that it's just my operating
and it's the way that I was raised, the way
the way that coach Thomas taught us. It's the way
that you know, just the coaches that have come into
my life on top of my parents, have helped shape

(15:12):
me into making something better, becoming better, being better what
you do, leaving it better than what it was before
you when you leave. Uh, you know, taken on the
responsibility when I think back, and I would love back
now over over the years in Printsacola, I look at
all the athletes that has come out of fronts Kola

(15:33):
since that time. I mean, you think about Derrick Brooks
Now who was the Hall of Famer. I mean he
was a freshman when I was a singer, and he
was coached by Jimmy Nichols, and Jimmy Nichols had an
impact on his life. And so that goes to goes
to show you the quality of coaching and the influence

(15:55):
of coaches in our in our young sports, and how
they can impact the lives of the men and women
going forward. And so it's a tremendous role in the
tremendous responsibility that I think is lost right now through
society because their mission was to always try to make
quality men beyond the game of football me and that

(16:17):
would impact the community me and that would impact the
world beyond the game of football. Because you have an
opportunity to do that. And when you realize that you
have that sphere of influence and you understand the role
and the responsibility that comes along with it, you just
approach things differently. You mentioned coach Thomas and and one

(16:37):
of the really neat details of your story is the
index card and the idea of it. It's just a
dream until you write it down. And one interview bite
that didn't make the film we wanted to play it
for you was your wife Pat talking about this very subject. Well,
you know he has I'm sure he shared he was

(16:58):
taught years ago by one of his coaches. You you don't,
You got to write it down. It's a dream, you know.
Until you write it down, it becomes a you know,
a goal. And so it has First of all, now
I write everything down, our kids write everything down. But
for him, literally, if you go in our bathroom right now,
in his vanity, he's got goals written down on his mirror.

(17:22):
So the obvious question is, emmett um, what are the
goals right now on the bathroom mirror. Well, there's still
the number one goal is to keep Jesus question number
one in my life. That's the number one goal, um
become a great father, great husband to my kids. And

(17:44):
then everything goes down to business. It's all about this
is about community. It's about about moving forward in advancing
my family's life. And what did uh, what did you
think or what did Pat and the kids think about
the H I think I think you resonated. I think
resonated with my kids big time to see, let's see

(18:08):
see things that they never once thought about. And and
here we talk here of us talk about me and
UH in a way that they've never heard before. And
so it all they did was to me, I think
you reinforced uh, some of the things that I would
say to them, Sam, You're you're talking about your kids here,
and you know we know e J is now playing

(18:29):
high school football. They're in Texas, And before you came on,
we were sort of debating whether we thought Florida or
Texas had the best high school football. And now since
you've had such exposure to both of those states, I'm wondering,
if you had to pick one, which state do you
think has the better high school football? Texas or Florida.
I think pound for a pound uh per square mile, Florida,

(18:51):
because Florida is a much smaller states, much much larger state,
so you have more kids and uh but I think, uh,
for the kids, Um, you know, Uh, that's that's the
first thing that they do. If it's if it's not running,
it's getting out into the yard and playing football. When
you look at the game today, is there's something that

(19:12):
you look at, you go, boy, I wish I had
had that. I wish I'd had that training method. I
wish I'd had that coaching, that scheme, that equipment, that nutrition. Boy,
I could have got twenty thousand yards if if I
had kind of what they're doing today. Is anything you
look at today and and just marvel at in terms
of how the game is growing and what it's become. Yes, yes,
I wish I could have played on the trial they
played on the day versus aster turf that I played

(19:33):
one years ago. Oh man, But there's so much I
mean the game in itself, uh, equipment wise, um wise, Um,
things that have have changed dramatically, something for the better
and some for the worst. Um. I mean coming out
of high school, if I had social media, how proud

(19:56):
of like Lebron James coming out of high school. But
know I'm glad I did, because I could have probably
been worse than strong of run in terms of the
things that that that that went on around our lives
during that time time time frame. Because the world now
there's so much into every person's DNA lifestyle, eating habits whereabouts.

(20:21):
There's so much more exposure into a personal life today
than there ever was doing doing doing the years which
I came up in there. There's a probably the most
powerful moment in the film is when you watch the
moment when you broke Walter Payton's record, um, which you know,
we were fortunate to have you miked up that day

(20:41):
and and it's always been such a powerful thing. When
when is the last time you had watched it prior
to the day you watched it for this film? You know,
that's a good question, That is a very good question.
I'm not even sure. But every time I watched that
that day, Uh, I told im with them getting right

(21:11):
down still with us, Immit, yeah, I'm with you. What
What is it about? What is it about Moose that
every time I ever hear you talk about this guy,
you know you have a hard time getting it out.

(21:32):
What is it about Moose? Joy? And mind myself and
many others. We get a lot of credits that you do.
But again, I'm gonna say it again, like I said
in my speech at the Hall of Fame, people don't
understand the sacrifices that this person makes. I mean running there,

(21:53):
putting your body on the line. Yes, it is his job,
but he doesn't have to do it to profession. He
is a man of excellence and a man of little words.
But he gets it done. And that part um internally
grateful for because that is a sacrifice that no one

(22:13):
can never get back, no one can ever understand, unleaship
in that position. Yeah, you can't help, but Crafford, feel
for the guy and be be be thankful, and be grateful,
and be courteous, and and be humble to the fact
that you had a person in your life that sacrifice
their body the way that the heat did for us

(22:36):
and for me. And so you see that sacrifice and parents,
you see that sacrifices, those sacrifices in the military, you
see that and lies lost and so forth, and here
in a game called football, and translating to the same
way for me, thank you very much, Evan, It was
it was really a pleasure just following you around, especially

(22:58):
back in in Pensicola, and uh it was really good
to uh to be able to share your story and
show so many layers of it. All Right, we'll let
you go. Thank you, Emmett. It's been great to spend
a few more minutes with you. If you've heard that

(23:21):
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taking it back. This is the NFL Films classic Classic
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That's grasshopper dot com slash films. Guys, Your thoughts Hearing

(25:27):
Hearing Himmett, He's just, I mean, out of all the
people that I've ever interviewed or been around, he's just
a genuine good person and that has He's got a
lot of emotions, like he's an emotional person, but I
feel like he's a very good person and he does
it's not just lip service, Like I think he fully
cares about all the people that have helped him on

(25:50):
on this journey. Why do you feel that way? What
what jumps out at him about him versus the other athletes.
You know, when we walked around the high school and
you know, he he's Emmitt Smith, like he lives in Alice,
he lives far away from Pensacola, and he's walking around
this high school and like as he's looking at these
pictures and these plaques and what we have in the film,
that whole mission statement, that plaque they have up there,
like he stopped and read that off verbatim, like I

(26:13):
wasn't I didn't set up that shot or took him that.
I didn't even know the thing was there. And then
he stopped there and could read it all off and
did it like three or four times in this dramatic way,
and you could tell those words really meant something to
him all these years later. And as people who have
seen the film will know. I mean, this is an
interview that was done principally at the field outside of

(26:35):
that locker room you're talking about, which is emblazoned with
a huge placard that says Emmett Smith Field. So the
entire location is essentially an an homage to Emmett and
what he did and what he contributed there and yet
Harry is sort of being the yeoman walking through and
kind of humbled by the experience of his own high
school locker room. Yeah, walking through waiting three hours later

(26:56):
after that to go talk to the high school kids,
like he didn't have to do that, um, you know.
And he loved the fact that the field is on there.
And that's the was Chris's idea about the last shot
of the film, That really really wide shot of Emmett's
like in the middle of the whole stands and it's
the last shot of film, and it's that's my favorite
shot of the whole entire film. Yeah, it's not a
got shot. It actually sort of instead of making him

(27:17):
tall and and sort of looming over the frame like
a statue or something, you sort of and you almost
visually diminish him. But it's a reflection of sort of
his attitude, which is to me what jumped out from
that conversation with him. Think of the three people he
honored his mother. At the very beginning of the conversation,
he got emotional talking about Moose Johnson and he talked
about his faith. I mean, he's clearly a guy who,

(27:40):
despite being at the pinnacle of his profession um and
having all the success still just sort of takes it
all in stride, and clearly UH is not trying to
to boast or brag. It's pretty remarkable to hear after
all these years. I do think when you're a guy
like Himmitt Smith, who's probably was the best that everything
he ever did growing up, there was a lot of

(28:00):
room to Uh sort of go off the rails. And
clearly he is very much still on the rails and
has a sense of who he is, but cares about
the people around him, and cares about UH being respectful
and humble and all those things that we sort of
try to instill in our own children. I'd say that
in a way that comes through in the film, even

(28:21):
though it's not something you would draw attention to, that
you guys were able to go to a lot of
different places with him, more more than we usually get
to go to with the subject, and it suggests that
he was invested in the success of the project. We
That was one of the goals early on was, look,
let's try to see how much time we can possibly

(28:42):
spend with him to bring out the most personality beyond
just a guy. In an interview and for example, you know,
riding in the car with him as a scene when
he's talking about you know, moving to Dallas from Florida,
and it was sort of just a moment in the
car that was it's just a conversational thing. It wasn't
like we said, you know, we were interviewing him necessarily.

(29:02):
We're just talking about what's going on while he's driving
the car. And spending the time with these guys off
the field, if you will, and just part within their
daily lives, I think is a really good way to demonstrate,
you know, here's what this guy's personality is, here's what
he thinks, here's what he cares about. And the same
thing and that in that stories locker, you know, just
spending the time on his feet and moving around gives

(29:26):
you it's just you get a better sense of these
guys than when they're just sitting in a chair doing
an interview philosophical question for all three of you. The
car ride, which is something it's a bit of a
trope in in documentary filmmaking, especially like follow docs, we
use them a lot and all or nothing. For one example,

(29:46):
what do you guys think of the car ride? Well,
the biggest thing that changed because I don't have a
very big opinion a good opinion on the car, But
the biggest thing that changed for this show was the
way that it was shot. Like it was filmed really
really well the first time Chris went to Dallas and
was shooting him around at night. So once we got
that footage back and just the way it was shot,

(30:07):
it was a little bit tighter, it was a little
bit more out of focus in the background, Like, it
just looked really really good and it looked different. Um,
So once we got that back, we tried to shoot
the other ones with him. I mean, he's in the
car at night in Dallas, he's in the car going
to the Cowboy game, he's in the car in Pensacola. Like,
he's in the car a couple of different times. But
I feel like it looks pretty good well. And one

(30:27):
of the ideas was, you know, this is a guy that's,
you know, on the move, he's still getting around and
he's still running if you will, you know, without the ball,
and that he's an active guy. And this is one
of the things that fascinating me about him, and is
you know, for a guy that broke the rushing record,
and had that many yards and that many carries. He's
still very mentally sharp and physically, you know, moving around well.

(30:47):
And again I think that was one of the things
we wanted to demonstrate by getting him on his feet
and getting him out and about and showing him how
much he's still on the move and living life and
and enjoying life. I love the car interviews as a technique.
I think it creates because of sort of spatial proximity,
it creates an emotional proximity to the subject. It literally
feels like you're sitting in a car next to somebody,

(31:10):
which is how so many people spend so many minutes
of their life and conversation growing up, you ride a
bus to school, you're sitting next to a kid. You're
having a conversation. If you have kids, or if you
are a kid, you're talking to your parents through the
seats of a car. And I also would say so
I love it. And I also think when a guy's
distracted sometimes when you're interviewing him, sometimes he sort of

(31:30):
becomes disarmed. Has been my experience. I would also want
to point out and it probably will fly by. It
may fly by. Most viewers of this film Not only
was this a technique they used topically moving like sort
of in the forward capture of this film, But looking back,
there's an element that existed in our library, um riding
with Emmett to Texas Stadium the day that he broke

(31:51):
the rushing record October two thousand two. So I'm guessing
i'll ask the question, but I'm guessing that was part
of the design to not only use that scene because
it's such a great archival element, but but to build
off of the success that director producer Bob Angelo had
that day in capturing that moment. Well, that was that
was one of Christ's original ideas, was that what we're

(32:11):
gonna do was just re enact that, and that was
going to be the crux of the whole film, with
him going to that Cowboy game. You know, as we
peeled the layers back, that became just a part of
it and not the whole entire thing. But originally that
he was always thinking about a shot for shot re
enactment of that day. I love that moment when he
he's driving to the too. We're actually driving to a

(32:34):
Cowboys playoff game with him, right and and and he
pulls up and and two policemen see him. Well, it's funny,
we you know. I rode around with him quite a
bit on a couple of different trips with him, and
as you probably aren't aren't surprised to hear if when
he pulls up and stops somewhere, everybody knows who it is.
And so we were pointing to a parking garage somewhere

(32:55):
to just sort of dump the car going to an event,
and uh, there was sort of a gate block in
the garage and images rolls in the winter, and I
asked the guy, hey, you mind buzzing us in there?
And the guy you know, it was just a guy
on the streets. Oh my god, it's Emma Smith. All
open the gate for you. You You know, people know who
him and Smith is no doubt about, especially in Dallas.
There's another bit of directing that I want to talk

(33:16):
about and how it came to be um jumping off
something we said or Keith was talking about in the
conversation with him at which is the Cardinals, uh chapter
of his career. When I watched this show the first time,
Emmett's interview comes up talking about the Cardinals, and I
know he's wearing a red sweater. Genius. I said, good
move by these guys. Can't be an accident, right, right.
They didn't just fall backwards into having him wear that

(33:39):
sweater in this block, did they, Paul, How did that?
How did that unfold? Well? Uh, when we shot his interviews,
we we had him changed three times. I mean we
shot in this huge women's museum and for all his
sit down interviews and most of us sit down interviews
are in that museum, so we kept having him change clothes,
so it would seemed like we were doing different things,

(34:01):
and all the shots looked differently. Chris, he brought because
we never told him to bring red. He brought that sweater.
That's right. We said, just bring an assortment of clothes
and you know, just a you know, a different set
of wardrobe. And yeah, so when he brought in, he
goes here, you go, here's what I got, and you know,
I'm flipping through the stuff and obviously, knowing that we
were going to spend one setting doing nothing but cardinals,

(34:24):
that was a pretty obvious decision. I'm sure it's visible
in many movies. Keith, you could you probably know, but
I think Wes Anderson jumps to mind his movies. He
often has characters with people in certain uniforms and it
it makes them very memorable. And it's almost as if
Emmett was wearing without the cheesiness of wearing an actual
Cardinal jersey. For him to be wearing that sweater like it,
it kind of refreshed his narrative voice for me, and

(34:47):
it made that block new and memorable in a way,
and it reinforced the portion of his life that we're
talking about. I thought it was a really cool detail. Well,
I mean, if you want to talk about Wes Anderson
or directing like that, there's you know, he curates every shot,
The composition of every shot, every detail on every shot
is there for a reason. And and and to take

(35:08):
it one step further, what I what I liked about
the way you guys directed this film is that you
did think about how to place him in the various
places you shot him. I like that the interviews with
him were shot at a low angle. That yeah, and
that was something we talked about with our director photography
early on. Fernand Lagrange is, look, let's let's consider this

(35:28):
low angle sort of looking up. This guy is the
Russian king, you know, And and we we should be
looking up to this guy as one of the royalties
of football, and so that was a decision we made
early on. You know, you're you're talking about Wes Anderson there.
I do think some of these wider shots in the film,
you know, I don't know if i'd say that Wes
Anderson was an inspiration for that, but I'm a big

(35:49):
Wes Anderson fan. Uh. He's Texas Tough by the way,
and he some of those shots do sort of echo
the framing in the in that width and symmetry that
I think when I think of Wes Anderson. Now, you
mentioned Chris Weaver Texas Tough, and and Chris mentions that
because he is a Texas native. We often pair producers

(36:13):
on a documentary at NFL films. We'd like to pair
disparate producers who are likely to get in big fights
as they make care. So this might have been one
of our best combinations ever. Chris Weaver from Texas and
Paul Monusky from New York. If they were a pro
wrestling tag team, they'd be called the Long Island Texas
t That'd be That'd be a good team. I'd have

(36:34):
to go in first, and I'm only good. But where
I'm headed with this is that Chris is a Cowboys fan,
abashed fanatic. Paul is not Jet fan, and I wonder
how that influences both of you when you go into
a project like this. Chris, when you go in to

(36:54):
make a film about Emmett Smith, who is an all
time great on the team, your favorite team in the world,
and Paul, you going in to make a film with
the guy who's making a film about one of his
favorite players. Well, you know, I know that Chris Weaver
is going to bed every night with his cowboy pjs
and his cowboy sheets and with his cowboy fat heads

(37:16):
on the wall. So when we put this stuff up,
you know, we we try to do three blocks that time.
There's six blocks in the show. Ideally you'd like to
do three and three. So Chris, we talked about it,
and what really appealed to me was the Cardinal stuff
and was his first his first block in his high
school stuff, and then what he was doing now. So
Chris did the bulk the heavy lifting on the Cowboys thing,

(37:39):
and it was sort of a catch twenty two um.
The fact that Chris would do a lot of things
that he would say, okay, well this is what Cowboy
fans want to see. And then I would say, well, look,
I don't I don't know that. I don't. I don't
know that moment. I'm the person that doesn't know any
of the Cowboy history. So maybe we should explain this
more or maybe we don't have to put that in.
But then on the flip side, he would say, we look,

(38:00):
if you're a Cowboy fan and you're watching the show
and you don't see this shot, they're gonna be upset.
So I think it was. It was a good dynamic
um in that in that sense. Was there any acrimony
along the way? During the every every single day, there
was a lot of acrimony. How do you Ever, Here's
what I'll say is I know I'm I'm I'm a
stubborn uh individual and uh And that's what that's where

(38:24):
I'm headed is it was interesting to see somebody that
was asked stubborn or more stubborn and and work side
by side with and it was great by the way.
I mean, in the end, that's all that really matters
of the film. But look, we had a great time
doing the film. I had a great time doing the film.
I can't speak from a Nusky there, but you know,
and I think we had we hit a good balance
of here's what I think is important, here's what he
thinks important, and like he said, he wanted to go

(38:47):
into the lesser known uh Emmett Smith's story that we
hadn't really covered in the past. And I think we
had a good balance and we had a good time.
We we we joined up on a couple of shoots.
You know, he did a shoot on his own, I
did a shoot on my own, and then we did
one and in the middle I think they're where we
were both there. So uh, we both had a lot
of input. We had a good time. But yes, some
acrimony along the way, button heads, but that's that's usually

(39:08):
the that's usually a leads to good things. I think, Keith,
what are the pros and cons of As someone who
oversees the series of of having pairs of producers producer
show versus the single a tour vision of the football
life episodes both both modes work. I happen to be
a big fan of working in pairs. I think it.

(39:31):
I can speak for myself, you know, this is my experience.
It brings the best out of me. When I work
with someone and we share ideas and I hear a
different point of view, and we can clash and we
can fight through things, and we can work through things.
That forces me to test my own theories and learn

(39:53):
which ones are bullshit versus which ones, Oh you know what,
that's that works. And also just it forces you to
say the story out loud as it's taking shape, And
I think that's very important. You got to like, what
is the story we're trying to tell. And when there's
two of you, you can you can work through that
and start to figure it out. Well, that's the I

(40:14):
mean to me, you live with this film. Like when
you're doing a film like this, it becomes like part
of you and that's all you think about. And you
see the same shots and hear the same bites over
and over and over again. So some things that you
might think work or are explained perfectly, you need that
extra person. And my biggest thing weve work. I've done

(40:35):
ten of these like and I've always worked with somebody
else and the interview questions. That's always the biggest part
for me is that Hey, we're gonna go interview this person.
Here's the list of all the questions. What did I miss? What?
What do I not have in there right now? What
should I ask him? What? What parts are you working
on that I should ask him about? Well, I'll say this,
I do think you need to have a single vision

(40:57):
on these things. And so that where it can get
tricky is you know, and again because I'm stubborn, and
once I find what I think the thing is, the
vision is, I have a hard time, you know, separating
from that. So and I but at the same time,
I love instant feedback and I love saying, hey, do
you think this is working? So yes, I'm a big
fan of the pairing and uh, I think that's a

(41:18):
good way to go. But like like Keith once told
us years ago, and we when I first got this job,
you know you're not gonna go lock yourself in your
office and then walk out with citizen Kane. And so
I'm a big believer in tapping other producers and utilizing
these brilliant minds that we have in the building and saying, hey,
I got a question, come in here and look at this.
What do you think of this moment? Is this working
for you? Or you know, this guy's a Cowboys fan,
I'll get his opinion on it, and then I'll bring

(41:39):
in the Jet fan and say, hey, what do you
think of this? And so I'm a big believer in
a lot of feedback, especially when you have talent around you,
and we have a lot of that in this building,
and so utilizing that talent is UH, no brainer for me,
right there. There are very few aspects of filmmaking that
lend themselves to to being uh to an individual sport.
There's there's the editing process where you can unlock yourself

(42:00):
in a room like a writer for eight hours and
not talk to anyone and EDA, and that is very
much like writing. That's about it. Every other part of filmmaking,
it's a team sport. And if you're not if you're
not prepared to have relationships to be challenged on a
daily basis by your colleagues, then then it's definitely not

(42:21):
the right medium for you. There is a small but
recurring presence of our two producers in the film, and
I want to play the clip both to talk about
how that unfolded, but also the subject that it gets
at that it's one of the drivers of this show.
So the first question we're asking everybody is who's the
greatest running back of all time? In your opinion? Who's
the greatest running, Who's the greatest run? Is the greatest running?

(42:42):
Macky greatest running? Boarding? Ranking is the greatest running? Who's
the greatest running back of all time? There's been a
lot of great running backs that have played that I
think can certainly be in that discussion. Thinking back from
my childhood days, you know, I think about Walter, I

(43:02):
think about dim Rerown. That is a very difficult question.
I'm not qualified to answer it. But also my intelligence
telling me that there was so much greatness it would
be very difficult to sing about of one person. I
think it's like artists who painted the best art? Well,
it's beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Who's

(43:24):
the greatest running back of all time? Emma Smith. They'll
say that he had a passing game, They'll say he
had a great offensive line. They'll come up with a
lot of different reasons as to why it was just
not him. Then the bottom line is, for me, there's
only one of it was the all time leading rusher.

(43:47):
So you heard a bunch of voices there, the great
Jim Brown, Marshall, Fall, Troy Aikman, Barry Sanders, Moose Johnson
Cowboys played by play guy Brad Sham. We're gonna talk
about the debate that they were having UM in a second,
but the first I want to talk about it the
other voices you heard at the very beginning of the clip,
which where if you didn't recognize them, our own Chris
Weaver and Paulmannuski and some of the other UH interview

(44:08):
voices who actually did the interviews, the producers who were
asking the questions. And I'm wondering if you could explain,
because I'm not sure people know why do you use
your own voice when you use that technique? What what tool?
What asset does that give you as you're putting the
show together, because we don't do the typical sort of
hosted shows in these docs, but there are occasions where
it's very effective and useful to employ the Q and

(44:31):
A audio technique in the final edit. UM, Well, I mean,
you guys talked about influences earlier, about like Wes Amerson
and all that other stuff. To me, I had watched
the documentary series called The Defiant Ones on HBO and
the way that they had their interview look and the
way that they had cut some of their stuff together
where they were sort of overlapping things really sort of

(44:51):
appeal to me. So I sort of took that. And
the reason why we had that question is sort of
like the crux of this whole entire show and how
it came about is Emmon Smith, the greatest running back
of all time. And that's kind of what we wanted
to start out with, was asking the greatest running backs
of all time and some great players what do they think?

(45:12):
And the reason why we had the question in there
is because the question was part of the theme. So,
like you said, we don't have I wasn't gonna have
a narrator do it, and we don't have a host,
so we became the hosts. And that's why I really
wanted to hammer that question home. And I'll go back
even further. You know, we we do what we call
a treatment when we do these films, which is sort
of the written version outline of the film. And a

(45:36):
third producer, James Weiner, wrote this treatment before we start
attackling the film, and that was sort of the gist
of his treatment was not a lot of people will
sit there and tell you that him and Smiths the
greatest of all time despite these facts that that James
laid out in the treatment and then we laid out
in the film, And so that was that was a
decision early on, let's try to have this debate. Now.
I got really concerned about doing that at the top

(45:57):
of the film and sort of diminishing this guy that
we're about to deify as the greatest running back of
all time. And so Minisky said, I'll tackle that. I
want to do that. And I think he did a
really good job. And that's how I measure everything as
a producer. Could I have done this? Could I have produced? Second?
I have shot this? And he did a better job
than I would have done on that. And I thought
the technique was great, and I thought it was one
of my favorite parts of the film. Here and these

(46:19):
people debate debate the greatest running Okay, I just go
one step further back. The reason why James Winner wrote
that treatment is because we were playing basketball with a guy.
We played basketball on Fridays, the producers and some teachers
in town, and one of the teachers was arguing that
Emmitt Smith was a terrible running back and that he
should not be in the top five and him and
James like almost came to blows because James was like,

(46:43):
this guy's that was one of the greatest running backs
all time, and as other teacher did not. So James
came back to the office wrote that treatment. And that's
how are we ready to dive into this conversation for
a minute. Well, I definitely want to dive into it
with with Mr co Sell in a couple of minutes.
I'm I would like to ask you two where you

(47:03):
came out versus where you started, and it should be noted.
Let's just put this out there, presented without comment. Paul
Monusky here actually was a producer the You've Done Them
All the Partners, a co producer of The Barry Sanders
Football Life as well. I'm not sure if you've done
other running backs among your ten, but but let's just
let's just limit it to the barring Emmett. Think it's

(47:23):
a useful fact as you answer this question, Well, if
you watch The Barry Sanders Football Life, I interviewed Emmett
for that, and that's the whole part of the fifth
segment is that that debate that Barry is better than Emmett,
and that's what I cut after doing this film. I
like Emmet's answer, and I'm not trying to be pc.
I if somebody asked me who the greatest running back

(47:46):
up all time is, I would not say Emmitt Smith.
But I don't know if I would necess say Barry Sanders.
But Emmett Smith is the most productive running back of
all time. I went in thinking Imitt Smith is the
greatest running back of all time, and I left thinking
Imt Smith it's the greatest running back of all time.
I mean, anyway you want to measure that, I mean,
it's an impossible answer, obviously, and Marshall Fox answer in

(48:06):
that clip you played is really the right answer. But
when somebody's gonna put you on the spot and say
who is it, Well, for me, it's Simmon Smith. The
guy has the numbers, he's got the championships, he helped
turn the team around. I don't really know what else
you could ask a guy to do. And he's probably
the most well rounded back. He blocks and and that's
a big thing for me. I like these backs that
can do it all and to me, and look, I've

(48:27):
done a segment on Barry Sanders before, so his footage
just as good as anybody's in the vault. And you know,
you can't argue with guys like Peyton and Jim Brown.
But when you add up all the variables that I
think you can have in a conversation about running backs,
ms Smith checks every box and I don't know what
else he what else he needs to do to be
that guy? And that was sorry. That was the cool
stat that we had about the offensive line too. Every

(48:49):
that's the that's the thing everybody says, the offensive line.
Anybody could run back to the offensive line. Well, three
of those guys were on the team when they went
one of fifteen. Like, all those guys were there before
Troy was there, Irving was there. All the offensive line
was there before Emmitt got there. I thought, Keith, that
might be the biggest case for Emmett is that everywhere
he went, he he changed everything the minute he walked

(49:13):
in the door. We're talking about a guy who had
hundred yards rushing in high school. I think we just
did the math and it comes out to like we
guessed how many games he played, but roughly he had
two d fifty yards a game rushing in high school.
I don't know his Florida stats, but I know in
three years he became Florida's all time rushing leader. Rushed
for eighteen thousand plus yards in the NFL just regular season, Right, yeah,

(49:36):
he rushed for another fifteen hundred in the playoffs. To
Keith's point, made every place he went better, won championships,
won individual awards. I want to know why we don't
talk about this guy is the greatest football player of
all time. What holes are there in Emmett Smith's resume
as an individual athlete, as a team player, as an
elevator of the people around him? What more could you

(49:58):
possibly ask? And you know this is not I'm not
a compliment. One guy equals insult for everybody else. It's
not a zero sum game. Usually people say Jerry Rice,
Lawrence Taylor, Jim Brown, not diminishing anything, but if you
have to rank somebody, how can you put anybody above him?
And Smith? Well, that's the really interesting point is that
nobody ever says, oh, well, Jerry Rice had Joe Montana

(50:19):
and Steve armthone. Nobody ever says that. But for Emmon Smith,
for some reason, everybody says, well he had the best
offensive line ever. You'll never hear somebody say Jerry Rice, No,
he had to Hall of Fame. No nobody will ever
say that, but for em they do. Maybe the takeaway
is just he's the most underrated player ever. Even with
having the most um revered record in pro football, he's

(50:44):
still the most underrated player maybe in the history of
the game. Rushing yards is a pure timeless record. It's
it's as it's as comparable as stat across eras as
we as we can have. And and we talked about
records that won't be broken, and usually they always are,
but man, this one, I don't know. I have no
clue who could even get close to this record in
this day. I mean, Peterson was a guy. Adrian Peterson

(51:06):
was a guy I thought, can he do this? I mean,
you know, the guy had a two thousand yards season.
It looked like he could maybe do it. But clearly
he's not gonna get close. And it's it's a record
that I I can't see it falling. The game has
evolved quickly away from the back being able to rush
the ball over three hundred times for thirteen straight years,

(51:26):
which I believe Emmett did in Dallas. That's just unlikely
to ever happen again. It's another thing we can talk.
We can we dig into a little more with Great
Cosell on a couple of minutes. There's but there is
one other thing I think we should dig into the
most powerful moment of the film, which we discussed with
him and on the phone. Let's play that right now.
This is Emmett and Darryl Johnson, his great fullback, reacting

(51:48):
to the moment when Emmett broke the all time rushing record.
And I'm just watching the whole thing, and We're about
twenty yards away, and there's a ton of people there,
and all of a sudden, it stops and it parts,
and we make eye contact, and I can see him
tear and then I started to tear it. I knew
it all way, Golong, glad I could be here, So

(52:12):
I could be here, I would have missed this or
anything that one may be. That one may be my favorite.
Uh what he whispered in my ear, Thank you so much, man.
I enjoyed everything I did for you, and I so

(52:36):
wanted to be in front of him that day. That's
one regret I have with my neck. But it was
the next best thing that was for the both of us.
I mean to two kids from two different parts of
the country set aside to do something special together. Daryl

(53:04):
Johnson and myself will be forever linked and I would
never allow that to dissipate as long as I got breath.
You can hear that that moment makes them an emotional
every time he sees it, but that that is also
a bit of a technique we've used quite a bit
over the years that NFL films will have a player

(53:24):
watch his own miked up moment. We haven't used it
as much in recent years, but you guys brought it
out in a grand way here. Um want to describe
the way the scene looked, the process of how you
designed it, and the execution of it. Well, early on,
I was in Dallas for a different shoot. After early
on when we decided that I was gonna be working
on the Image film, and I was in Dallas for

(53:46):
a different shoot, and Ferdinand le Grange, are director photographer
for the Emmett film, was there too, and I said,
let's go check out this building that we're considering to
do this set of interviews with Imma in And as
we're walking around this it's a it's a museum and
fair park for those for people in Dallas and know
where that is. It's just basically I wouldn't call it
an abandoned building, but it's not used very often. But
in that building was a theater and you know, we're

(54:09):
scouting these rooms, Ferdinand and I and we walk in
there and it was just one of those Instantly I
thought we should use this theater and what can we
show him it? And it didn't take long to figure
out what we're gonna show him? His wire. I mean,
that's the it's the signature I at Smith moment, uh,
aside from maybe the Giants game in the ninety three.
But let's let's put this on the screen for um
and he probably hasn't seen in a while. Let's see

(54:30):
how he'll react to it. And then once we decided
on the that idea, then Ferdy and I sort of
started mapping out here's how we think we can shoot
this and how we can make it look unique and
make it look better and that, yeah, that was a
decision early on. And I'll say this that you know
when you met when I'm when we made that creative decision,
I thought we would only use him it's voice in
this whole section. But you know, I have to ask

(54:51):
him about that moment because as a Cowboys fan, that's
one of the greatest moments I can remember, is when
he starts talking Moose, I just from the crowd yell,
you know, doing the Moose chant. And obviously Darryl Johnson
is a big part of his story. So once we
had the moments, then we could put it all together
and Moose became a voice in the game. But if
if you'll notice, that's the only the person that talks
during this game. And at one point it looked like

(55:12):
or I thought it might just be in it, but
clearly Moose needed to be in there. But that's you know,
you talk about choices and choices that people make in
editing and all that stuff. That's a big moment, and
there are a lot of people in that moment. His
wife's in that moment, his mom's in that moment. Michael
Irvin's there, Uh, you know, Jerry's there. Jerry does the
big speech at the end, and Chris's decision. The only

(55:34):
at all the people We interviewed so many people for
this film, and you only hear Emmett and you only
hear Moose and his wife pat Is as one bite
at the beginning, but other than that, those the only
people you hear. And that's a choice like that's and
to me, that's a bold choice to make, and it
worked out really really well. You don't even hear music
in that section, if I'm correct, from the moment that

(55:55):
Moose and he hugged roughly to the end of the block.
It's just their two voices, Paul disc and no music.
Why did you make that decision to not use music
in that very emotional, stirring moment. Well, I think music
and film is it's almost purely an emotional driver, or
it's a cute too for people's emotion. Here's the emotion

(56:15):
we're trying to strike with you, and in a moment
like that, the emotion is already there and it's pure
and it's understood, I would say, at least, And that
was the decision, is we don't need a sappy song,
or we don't need a cute people they're supposed to
be sad or uh, you know, whatever emotion you'd think
you want to demonstrate there, Uh, it's already there. There's
no need to add that. And you know, again, that's

(56:36):
a technique we discuss here in the building amongst other producers. Hey,
should we put a piece of music? Here? Is the
emotion genuine already? Do we need to add to it?
And that one, to me was a pretty obvious example
of something we don't need to add and make it better.
It's as good as it can be because im it's
is given us a good, pure, genuine emotional response. Alright, fellas,

(56:57):
I think it's I think it's time, Paul, can you
hear it? I think I wait there it is coming
up over the hill. Noted NFL Films guru Greg joining

(57:18):
us now the one and only Greg k self, senior
producer of the Matchup Show on ESPN and also one
of the um stars of the show as of this year. Greg,
thanks for joining us to talk Emmett Smith Kas Thanks.
You know, I think before we start, there's just a question,

(57:40):
who do you think is the greatest producer of all time?
Some guys are compilers and others are more like light splashy.
So Emmitt Smith in your head, as someone who's been
watching the tape for decades, what makes Emmett Smith Emma Smith?

(58:02):
You know, those are such tough questions to about running
backs in particular they are, Yeah, they are, they are
because to me, running backs we always look to compare
running back you know. I get asked that all the time,
particularly when the draft comes around. Who you know, who
is kareem hunting? Like? Who's Leonard four Nette? Like? Who
is this guy like? And I always find that so

(58:24):
hard because I think running backs are so unique in
their particular styles. And Emma, to me, he was so
smooth and so fluid. I almost felt watching him that
it didn't feel like he was exerting himself. And I
think one thing that's probably overlooked with him is vision,

(58:47):
because I think his ability to break tackles, and I
think his his ability to run through uh contact and
have great contact balance. But when I think about him,
I think about some of those runs where the point
of attack was blocked and he had to you know,
and then you have to find space. And that's vision.
And it wasn't vision the way you think of a

(59:08):
guy who just, let's say, starts at the point of
attack and then just veers one way or the other.
It was his ability to sort of stop and start. Now,
Chris and Paul having when you make a film like this,
you you literally watch pretty much every decent run of
of a guy's career, and an Emmett's case that there
are more of them than anyone else in his YEA,

(59:30):
So what were your what did you learn about Emmett
the running back going through and editing all of those
runs into a documentary? What I learned? I'd say a
lot of what Greg just touched on his vision, I
think is probably the thing that I would point to
that if somebody says what separates him it from anybody else's,
I would say, it's his vision. And again to Gregg's point,
it is about style, and Emmett Smith had a style.

(59:52):
By the way, not every running back has a style.
And so yeah, you say who's the greatest ever, it's
like saying who's the greatest guitarist ever? It really just
boils down to your taste in the style. I mean, yeah,
it's the same medium, but you know, Jerry Garcia doesn't
play the same style music that Jimmy Page or Jimmy
Hendricks plays, and so Immtt Smith had And I do
I agree with Greg too that he's sort of an
effortless runner like Barry in that same category. Barry Sanders

(01:00:15):
just didn't look like he was working very hard to
get where he was going, but boy he got there fast.
And he might be like the Eric Clapton doesn't sound
like Eric Clapton's doing a whole lot sometimes but it's
just smooth and pure, as opposed to say like Adrian Peterson,
who looks like he's working hard every step of the
way like I might like, I might say, you know,
Tray and a Stasio plays guitar, so a lot of
its style, and Ima Smith had it. That's the that's

(01:00:36):
the numb one thing. I walked out of there with this.
Emma Smith had a running style. Why do we have
a fish and a greateful dead reference in the span
of twenty second? Shocking? Isn't it? Very? Very shock? I
want to play a clip though that kind of gets
at this conversation. We had a little bit of a
feeling out process, you know, like, for instance, we started
running some sweet plays and it wasn't a sweep runner.

(01:00:57):
He was more of an inside downhill runner, so we
had to adjust the offense a little bit. Because I
can remember the first time we really had him and
in the game was against the New York Giants and
we were running a stretch flight and doing practice em
it kept cutting it back and Joe Broskin running back
say you can't go behind the center. He's not saying

(01:01:20):
it as nice as what I'm saying that he he
was cussing, you cut it too far back. The backside
tackling ain't gonna knock you out. Well, that's what happened
to him. They almost killed it. But after that game
we stopped literally running that play. Let's just simplify this.
Let's let's find out a couple of things that we
can do well right now, and then incorporated shorter runs,

(01:01:42):
we just handed off quicker and lead drawl became our play.
With Darryl Johnson leading up on the linebacker. That was
Jimmy Johnson, Nate Newton and Darryl Johnston talking about the
birth of the Cowboys legendary running game with him at Smith. So, Greg,
let me ask you this. You know, they figured out

(01:02:04):
early on that he's not a guy that's gonna go
around the edge as much as he can do between
the tackles there. Talk a little bit about what that
lead draw, what that means, and how that became the
bread and butter the Cowboys. Well, lead draws a downhill run.
It's and it's a normally a two back run. And
obviously that was the year of fullbacks, and it was
Darryl Johnston who was a great lead blocker. So lead

(01:02:25):
draw what what it theoretically does if it's run well,
is your old line initially well, hats will go up
as if they're going to pass protect. So what you're
trying to create is for the first level of the defense,
the D line, to start working up field. And what
you're hoping happens is then that creates gaps. So that
creates a gap for the lead blocker Daryl Johnston to

(01:02:47):
get through right at the point of attack. And at
that point then there's vision for the back because he
can see the opening and he can follow his blocker.
Great teams, successful teams build their offense around the talents
of the players they have. It's always something you always hear.
You know, a great coach doesn't force a system on

(01:03:09):
a player. He he finds the right system for the
players that he has. And the Cowboys, to their credit,
recognized Emmett is really good at these certain things. Let's
introduce some plays that catered to his strengths well. They
had an entire They had a lot of talent on offense,
and it all worked together. Obviously, he was an outstanding

(01:03:31):
downhill runner. They worked off lead draw, which also then
provides play action really really effectively, and they ran a
lot of power concepts, which is also a downhill run.
There in power, oh, that's where you pull an offensive lineman.
But it worked off the fact that they knew they
were going to get because they were a base personnel
offense for the most part, meaning they had a fullback

(01:03:52):
on the field, so they had what we call twenty
one personnel, two backs, a tight end too wide receivers,
so they knew. They also had a quarterback who was
precisely accurate. He was a rarity. Troy Aikman was a
power thrower with precise accuracy. They had a receiver in
Michael Irvin, who then would get man to man coverage
on the outside because teams would play that extra defender

(01:04:14):
in the box. You hear about an eight man box,
that's what teams would do, so you would get one
on one on the perimeter. Michael Irvin was the kind
of receiver he didn't necessarily win by separating all the time,
but he was big and physical, and when you combine
a precisely accurate ball placement thrower with a big, physical
wide out, you get a lot of completion. So it

(01:04:35):
all went together. We're talking about literally Hall of Fame
players in Michael Irvin, Emmett Smith, Troy when Great, great
head coach on college and NFL level, and Jimmy Johnson.
But there's a name that came up in this film,
and I think his name, Chris correct me if I'm wrong,
comes up prominently in the Troy Aikman football life. Is

(01:04:56):
North Turner, Greg the maybe the secret m v P
of the nine nineties Cowboy Dynasty. Well, the reason NORV
Turner was so critical and why he was seen as
in some ways the driving force behind that offense is
because of his basic offensive philosophy. Obviously there's many nuances
in details, but for our purposes, the cliff Notes version

(01:05:17):
of NORV Turner was that you start your offense with
a power run game, and the past game works off
that look. So that was perfect for the talent that
the Cowboys had. You start with a run game, you
have Emmett Smith, and then you work a play action
pass game off of it. You have Troy Aikman, and
then you had the white outs, you had Michael Irvin

(01:05:38):
who could win one on one. You could just think
of the play that was the past play we talked
about the lead draw with the running game with Emmett,
a great run for him downhill. But the thing that
worked off what they did because they get a lot
of eight in the box, so you'd get single high safety.
So what was the past play that we all remember,
the skinny post, the A eight exactly. They were in that.

(01:06:02):
I think Troy Aikman through the Bang eight as well
as any quarterback that's ever played, because the Bang eight
the perfect coverage for the BANG eight is covered three zone,
the perfect coverage because the corners are playing outside and
you've got a single high safety, so it's the perfect coverage.
And they threw that and through that to Irvin. I mean,
I could picture in my mind now I see those

(01:06:22):
plays well, and I'll sort of counter Keith here in
one of our interviews, and I can't remember exactly who
it was. It was one of the former players. You know,
not every coordinator comes in and adjust to the players
they have in front of him. You know, some of
these coordinators come in and they're so married to the system.
They're like, we're running this system. I don't care what
this back does or how he functions. And I think
that's another tribute to North Turner is he he's always
sort of been able to adjust with the talent and look,

(01:06:44):
he's been blessed with great running backs in his career
with Thomlinson and Emmett Smith, but he is sort of
the I agree with Paul that he is probably the
sneaky m v P of that of that dinasty and
raises a fascinating point a conversation I've had with many
coaches over the year. It's because you probably find this
really interesting. The conversation stems from what makes a great

(01:07:04):
running game, the old line or the back. Okay, no,
it's a fascinating conversation. There's a lot of coaches who
believe that the back makes the run game as opposed
to the old line, that if you have a great back,
that even if you don't have a real good old line,
that you can still have a consistent weekend and week
out run game, which in some ways I chuckle because

(01:07:26):
it's playing itself out in some ways right now this
season with the Dallas Cowboys. As we speak today, it's
it's um. We're in the late stages of the season,
and we have seen the Cowboys with and without Ezekiel
Elliott and um, there's a difference low and behold and

(01:07:46):
yet and yet most would say they have the best
old line in the legal although they've not been as
good this year. Clearly, I can tell you that from
watching every game on tape, they have not been anywhere
near as dominant on a week to week basis. But
there's no question that the drop off from Zeke to
Alfred Morris is pretty significant. But there's a lot of
people who believe if you have a great, great back,

(01:08:08):
you can run the football. Do you believe that Emmett
was the product of that offensive line or that it
was Emmett that was the special part? He was a great,
great back, because the thing you have to look at
is not just his ability in an isolated vacuum, which
was special, but there's the ability to do it for

(01:08:30):
a long period of time with Durability is a trait
as well. It's not just the physical trait of running
the football, which is high level, but the ability to
do that weekend and week out. Not be injured, and
to do it over a long period of time. That's
a trait which brings us to the numbers themselves, which

(01:08:51):
are staggering. Eighteen thousand, three d fifty five yards the
all time rushing record, perhaps, as we said earlier than
perhaps the most revered record in football and maybe all
of sports. And given the way the games played, I mean,
that's like the Machio's hitting streak. I mean, is anyone
really going to break that record the way the NFL
game is now played. I would say it's more impressive

(01:09:14):
because I could argue that you a a a talented
but not iconic Hall of Fame type player, could have
a great two months, could go on a hot streak,
have an aberration, have an aberration of a summer, even
in his own within his own career, and and threatened
that record. You cannot have an anomalous approach to Emmett

(01:09:34):
Smith's rushing record. It is a model of delhi perseverance
and consistency and longevity that is rare in in in
any discipline, let alone athletics. He averaged I believe, over
three hundred carries a year for thirteen years. Pallas, and
there's no, like, who's gonna do that. First of all,
it's not a matter is there anyone capable? We don't

(01:09:55):
know that. But in the way the game is played
today and the way coaches see the team, and with
the continuing influence of what people view as college principles
in the NFL game, is anybody gonna line up and
give the ball to a back that often to gain
those kinds of yards? And this this reminds me of
one of my favorite bites in the film, and it's

(01:10:16):
Jerry Jones and he says the high point of the
franchise during his tenure, in his twenty eight year tenure
of the Cowboys was winning a second straight Super Bowl.
They've never done it before, and I obviously haven't done
it since. And it doesn't happen unless he's on the field.
And he was just you know, rung up with the
with the separated shoulder just a couple of weeks before that,
and he willed himself to be out there. And durability,

(01:10:36):
to Greg's point, is a big part of what makes
an NFL player, even an NFL player, and much less
to be a great NFL player, you gotta play. And
Immant Smith did it, and like he said, for thirteen
years he was carrying the ball three hunder plus times.
And you mentioned London four nette, so London four nets
got about seven yards rushing. So let's just say he
finishes the year with yards, right, he'd have to do.

(01:10:57):
We think about how long straight years to come close
right to Emmet's record? Yeah? You, I mean, well, people
don't realize that Emmetts had the record now almost is long,
if not longer already than Walter Payton had it. Emmett's
had the record for almost a generation. He broke it

(01:11:18):
um in two thousand two. I think, yeah, it's fifteen years,
and I think Walter had for eighteen. So he's close.
People don't realize that. And so he I think he's
got another ten years easy. There's no one playing right now,
and Adrian Peterson is not going to get there. And
but think about this too. If you have a high
level passer, and Troy Aikman was a high level passer,

(01:11:38):
the way coaches thinking today's NFL game is they want
the high level passer to throw the ball. They don't
think in terms of let's start then our offense with
the run game and give it to a back twenty
two times a week and for the most part, have
that high level passer be a piece of the offense
as opposed to the driving force of the offense. You know.

(01:12:01):
I mean, Troy Aikman won three Super Bowls. And the
thing that was always interesting was when they did get
to the playoffs, they sort of tweaked their run past
balance a little bit and they came out throwing the
ball a little more in playoff games, as you guys
probably remember. I mean, they didn't go crazy always don't
like they wanted him dropping back fifty times, but they
tweaked it just a little bit and they would come
out a little more aggressively, but still the foundation they

(01:12:23):
started with the run. I don't think in today's NFL,
if anybody has a high level thrower, they're going to
in a sense put him on the shelf and say, Okay,
we're gonna run the ball. That's interesting. I was thinking
watching the film when we talked a lot earlier about
Emmett's goals. He was a big goal guy from a
young age and writing the goals down in an NIX
card and saying he wanted to get to those plateaus

(01:12:46):
and eventually got to the point where he wanted to
try and catch Walter, and I was wondering if a
player was coming out of college. Kind of to your point,
Greagan said at his Combine interviews, I want to become
the all time leading rusher. I want to carry the
ball so many times that I catch him and with
the team go, well, that's great. This guy really has
a vision or where they go, well, we don't want
to running back who wants to do that. He's gonna
be He's gonna be a ball hog, he's gonna want
too many touches. We need our guy to do other

(01:13:07):
things and not need to be the feature guy. It's
an interesting how the game is evolved and what we
ask for from certain positions, no question, because the first
thing everybody thinks about an offense now or explosive plays,
which means twenty plus yard plays. And there's no way
that people think that a focus on the run game
gives you enough explosive plays. I mean, you look at
a team we we've mentioned Leonard Fornette. The only reason

(01:13:29):
we're mentioning him is also because of the team he's on.
There's a profile of that team which is run the
ball play great defense. I hope your quarterback doesn't make
a lot of mistakes. I mean, which you know, that's
kind of the profile. That is a profile that in
today's NFL most people would say is not going to
lead you to a championship. It could get you to

(01:13:50):
the playoffs perhaps, but most people would argue that that
profile is not going to get you to a championship.
The other element of today's game that's very diff frin
is we have running back by committee, which, right, we're
seeing in the Eagles. The Eagles are doing a great
job three guys. They have three guys, right, and they
each have a different role. Yes, And the Patriots, of course, Belichick,

(01:14:15):
as usual, takes an idea someone else might have had
to a totally different level with it seems like he's
got eight different running backs that he can deploy against
whatever opponent in any situation. And and selectively. You might
not hear from Dion Lewis for a month, and then
all of a sudden he busts out, well, it's funny
you just used a word that I'm not sure it
was quite thought of the way we think of it now,

(01:14:39):
situation situational football. Okay, situational football now defines the game.
I would say, back when Emmett came in, and you know,
so what Emmett's rookie year was, what year ninety? Right, ninety? Okay,
so he had his big run with the Cowboys for
the next six I mean obviously beyond that, but I
mean the big team run was for sort of the
next five six years. I don't remember people talking or

(01:15:02):
using the term situational football back then anywhere near the
way they use it now. I mean today, the game
is defined by personnel packages, by situations. I mean the
Cowboys they lined up with the same people when they
got to third down. Yes, did they put a third
wide receiver on the field, sure, But for the most
part they just lined up with the same personnel. But

(01:15:24):
you know, just Ett. Just one other thing about Emmett.
Marshall Falk had a great bite about Emmett. Was there
after Troy and after Irvin, And you think about great
backs on great teams, it's very rare. And I can't
even think of some one example where the running back
outlived the quarterbacks. A great point of wide receiver Emmett had.

(01:15:45):
I love this that he had nine thirty seven yards.
In his last season with the Cardinals, he had nine
thirty seven yards rushing both in both cases rushing his
rookie season with the Cowboys. So we keep talking about
his consistency. I mean, if there's not a better reflection
of consistency than those two book ends on two very
different teams at two different stages of his life and

(01:16:07):
his career, I mean, maybe maybe if there's one thing
that sets him apart, it's that boring, unsexy word of
consistency that that vaulted him to where he got to.
Maybe that's a good way to to thank the incredibly
consistent delivers analysis you can't get anywhere else in the
football world, Thank you, Greg Cosell. But but not boring

(01:16:29):
and on sexy by the way. Oh, I appreciate that.
So I'm more like the Jimmy Page of Uh let's see.
That's why I hear that out there, because I knew, Greg,
don't be down. My good friend Ryan Stays plays the base.
They're from South Bend, Indiana. Yeah, but you're from Albany.

(01:16:52):
Well that's also cool. All right, that's enough, thanks Greg,
appreciate it. Guys. Well, boys, what are we learned today?
I think that the debate about Emma Smith is going
to go on forever. But I feel like the film

(01:17:12):
kind of puts it in a different context of him.
That that's really all we're trying to do. I'm changing
the debate greatest football player ever, That's what the debate
should be. I want to hear who else's case stacks
up as high as Emtt Smith's because the longevity, in
the consistency, in the amount of years, there's very few
people just when you start with that criteria that can
even compete with what Emmett accomplished over the span of

(01:17:34):
his football life from fourteen years old to whatever it
was thirty four years old. Yeah, I don't know anybody
that tops that. I don't know what else he could do.
I really don't. He's got the numbers, championships, he's got
it all. Let's put Weaver on the spot. Who are
your all time great Cowboys? Let's limit it to uh,
let's limit it to three. I'd put Emmett Smith at

(01:17:56):
the top of that list for all the reasons we've
been discussing here today. I don't know what he's missing. Uh,
And I'm gonna keep it within my you know, sphere
of cognizance. And I'm gonna say Emmett Smith. I'm gonna
say I can't answer this question too much cowboy love.

(01:18:16):
It's hard not to say the triplets because of how
much they meant to the dynasty and and in putting
the Cowboys back on the map after that that lull
in the eighties. But I got a real soft spot
for Tony Romo. He's I think he's probably the most
beloved cowboy that never won a championship, the second to
maybe Meredith, to Don Meredith, who's another cowboy that I'm
extremely fond of because he went to the same college

(01:18:38):
that I went to. But I'd say Emmett Smith, Michael Irvin,
and uh, I'm gonna go ahead and put Tony Romo
in there. Quote Clinton Portis, who we did interview. I'm
gonna put eight people on my Mount Rushmore. I love it.
I want to thank, of course, the all time Russian leader,
Emmett Smith for joining us today in the NFL Films Podcast.

(01:19:00):
I want to thank the producers of his Football Life,
Paul Monusky and Chris Weaver just alphabetical just by the way. Um,
we want to thank our engineer Steve Moseley and our
producers Bennet Whisseltier and Rich Owens, and of course noted
NFL Films Guru, Great costal for stopping by, Thanks for

(01:19:20):
listening everyone. You can follow us on Twitter at NFL Films,
Like us on Facebook, check us out on Instagram. We've
got a YouTube channel. Watch all your favorite football life
episodes on NFL Network. Talk to you soon,

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