May 5, 2023 • 13 mins
Sam Sethi spoke to CEO of PodX Group, Staffan Rosell.
You can also read the interview here: https://podcastbusinessjournal.com/interviews/staffan-rosell/ and subscribe to our weekly newsletter about the business of podcasting
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I'm joined by the CEO of PodX, his name is Stefan Rossell, he's over in Sweden.
(00:05):
Stefan, how are you?
I'm fine, thank you.
How are you?
Very well, very well.
Now, Stefan, you came onto Pod News' radar about April last year when we wrote about
the fact that there's a new podcast investment company that's launched in Sweden called the
PodX Group.
And your goal was to invest into international podcast IP rights and offer financing business
(00:28):
development, internationalisation and commercialisation to emerging podcast producers and creators.
So that was the background to it.
We were like, oh, that sounds very interesting.
And subsequent to that, you got very active.
So you started to get into buying companies in France like Nouvellequests and companies
in the UK like Gold Hawk Productions.
(00:50):
But before we get into some of those stories, take us a step back.
What is your background and how did you come about forming PodX?
Well, I worked in media for the past 20 years and I've been leading the operations for Viacom,
Proceedings Ations, Discovery and last before I founded PodX, Bauer Media here in the Nordic
(01:14):
market.
Yeah, very big group.
Yeah.
And during that time, the last five years, I was really driving the digital and the podcast
agenda within Bauer internationally and mission, the importance of radio companies embracing
and developing their digital future.
(01:35):
So that's sort of my background and my thinking behind PodX.
Now, who are your co-founders in the business then?
It's Patrick Svenske, who's been a TV man, you could say he's built Odiak, which is today
a part of the BannerJ and Nice Entertainment for the Viaplay Group and also Fredrik Said,
(01:55):
who comes from ACOST and is really the one of us who has the most sort of international
podcast background.
So Patrick, he has built, if you like, something like PodX in the TV world and Fredrik has
been an important part of the international expansion of ACOST.
And I've been working with audio entertainment for most of my work life.
(02:19):
So given what I said right at the beginning, that your goal is to help emerging podcast
producers, creators with finance as well as IP rights, what is your business model then?
What is PodX's model?
What we like to do is to build a world leading international podcast collective, if you like,
a collective or a group of the best, including the best podcast creators in the world.
(02:45):
We think that by bringing them together, they will become stronger, learn from each other,
take each other's formats international and really because the background is really that
we see that many of the podcast businesses are very small, but very talented, but together
they will become stronger.
(03:05):
So the business model is really to invest in these companies and to become a majority
shareholder.
It's not because we want everyone to become the same.
Everyone will keep their brands, their podcasts, their culture, their language, their nationality.
But if we can consolidate this in one group, we think that the sense of belonging to one
(03:28):
group and the, what you say, the will to actually help each other will be much stronger.
So we become majority shareholders of the businesses that we invest in and the founders
of those businesses become minority shareholders of PodX.
So that's why we believe it's truly a collective.
I mean, in a few years time, podcast creators from all over the world will together own
(03:51):
maybe half of PodX.
In the Web 1.0 world, I used to work for a company called CMGI based out of Boston.
I was their marketing director and we had a very similar model.
We had AltaVista, Turome, Navio.
I mean, we had about 60 companies eventually within the portfolio.
And the synergy that those companies brought to each other was what raised the value.
(04:13):
I think CMGI was raised to over a billion dollars.
I guess what you're saying is the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
It's the PodX family together will make a stronger proposition.
How do you fund and finance it?
We're financed and funded by a company called Calbo, an investment company.
So they are the majority shareholder now of PodX and they provide the financing for the
(04:37):
investments that we do.
And we're not necessarily looking for an advertising network.
We are very neutral when it comes to business models.
I mean, we see that there is an advertising business model.
There is a subscription business model out there.
There are commissioners ordering and asking for content from podcast creators.
(05:01):
There are branded podcasts.
So there are multiple business models around podcasting at the moment.
And we don't know and I don't think anyone knows which of those will grow the fastest
and be more successful.
I think that many of these models will exist in parallel.
And if you compare with the television and other medias.
So it's very important for us to say that we like podcast companies that do great content
(05:26):
and that have found a business model that works for them.
And it's not necessarily the same business model as another company that we invest in.
So that's how we think around that.
So given that you've got quite a large portfolio now and quite a diverse portfolio, I mean,
you've got companies in Argentina now and recently you acquired the one in Finland.
(05:48):
How do you determine which one to go for next?
Do you just say, right, Italy is a market you want to be in, let's go and find a player
or do you go and find a company first that just happens to be in another country?
What's the criteria for acquiring the next company?
Very relevant question and something that we talk about a lot.
But we have decided to limit ourselves to Europe primarily and Latin America.
(06:12):
And we believe for business purposes very much in big languages that could reach many
people.
English being the most important one, but also Spanish and French.
So we believe very much in the greater markets in Europe and Latin America with a lot of
people and big languages.
(06:32):
So that's sort of the frame.
But within that frame, we are looking for very creative and successful companies when
it comes to content creation, companies that won prizes, but also companies that have proven
that they can make successful podcasts over and over again and generate revenue around
those podcasts.
(06:53):
So content is the core.
That's the most important part.
Management is very important, showing that you can actually do something with your content
business wise.
And then we also like evergreen content so that you actually can use your content over
and over again.
History is a perfect example.
True crime documentaries where you can actually listen to something today and you can listen
(07:19):
to the same thing in five or 10 years with the same level of excitement.
That's the type of content that we like.
And then last but not least, we like companies that have the ambition to protect and keep
as much as possible of their content in order to be able to do business with it onwards
and in the future.
(07:39):
So that's the main criteria, as I would say.
Given one of your founders has got a TV background, do you see taking these podcasts and putting
these to TV and film?
Is that one of the roads to market?
It could be, but it's not one of the main roads.
We say to all the companies that we meet that it's audio first, it's podcast first.
(08:00):
And if you're successful and you have something fantastic that someone wants to make television
or film out of, that's great, but that's a bonus.
It's the icing on the cake.
We are almost a bit worried about podcast companies that think too much of the possibility
that everything will become television and film because that's not going to happen.
That will be, I think, the exception rather than the rule.
(08:23):
So when it comes to format development and how to make business out of your IP, we much
more believe in that a great podcast in Finland could be translated to French and English
and Spanish and be successful as a podcast in other territories.
Right.
So Podimo, based out of Denmark, has a very similar model to you, although they acquire
(08:48):
it to go into the Podimo app.
And then they look at translating that into multiple other different languages and countries.
And they've stayed out very much until recently the UK market.
But what is it with Sweden?
You've got Spotify, you've got Acast, you've got Podimo, you've got PodX.
I mean, what's going on in the water over there?
(09:09):
It's probably not for me to answer because it's a much bigger question.
But you're right that, you know, starting maybe with Spotify and even earlier, there
is a business culture here.
Yeah, absolutely.
There is a business culture here around technology that is it's just here.
And it's like I said, I'm humble enough to realize that I'm not the person to explain
(09:30):
that because it's a much bigger topic, but it's here.
And yeah, I guess you have to have certain financial resources to be successful in building
businesses and maybe especially global businesses with the technology.
And you know, this part of the world is lucky enough to have a high GDP and good schools
(09:51):
and all the rest of it.
So social welfare and what have you.
But it's interesting that many companies come from here.
But back to your first question there, we do not at all see Podimo as competitors.
We rather see them as business partners because they are commissioning content from several
of our companies.
(10:12):
So they are really clients.
I mean, they are coming to our companies and asking for content.
We see them more as a platform and a distribution partner for the content that our businesses
create.
So did I miss something in the story of PODX?
Did you do a funding round because obviously Podimo raised 75 million, which has allowed
(10:33):
them to go and do what they're doing.
You've obviously got backers, but you know, is the backer a VC or private equity?
I mean, how much more can you invest, you know, going forward?
We don't know exactly how much more we can invest, but the company, Carbo, that found
us has great backing.
(10:54):
It's not private equity, but the money comes from private equity originally.
And now it's a private office.
And if they like what we're doing, they could invest a lot more.
So we're not going for any external rounds trying to find money elsewhere.
We have the financial backing that we need.
So fast forward six months from now, I mean, more acquisitions in the pipeline?
(11:16):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think we will probably do, you know, two to four more acquisitions within that period.
But we're also now going into a very interesting phase.
And this is really where the work begins, that we want to deliver the advantages of
being a products company to the companies that we have invested in the last six months.
So we're now working hard with the business development, content creation, exchanging
(11:42):
ideas, exchanging formats, working with IP and the legal side of things in order to not
give everything away to the commissioners.
But now it's really when the fun and the real work starts when we actually have six companies
in the group.
So what's the exit strategy for products if there is one yet?
Yeah, I like to say and to think that you should not think too much about the next strategy.
(12:07):
You should think about building a fantastic business, because if you have a fantastic
business, you can keep it and live from the dividends.
You can put it on the stock market or you could sell it.
So the core of any business exit strategy should be to build a fantastic business.
And that's what we're trying to do.
I only mentioned it because Spotify and Acast are both floated on markets right now.
(12:30):
I just wondered if that's a natural evolution for you guys.
It could be, but it could be keeping it or it could be selling it as a whole or it could
be the stock market.
Definitely.
But we are really at a very early stage.
We have just bought the first six businesses in the last six months.
And we want to build a group to become bigger and more profitable and a leader when it comes
(12:53):
to content development and IP creation and development of business around IP in the world
for podcasters.
And we are not there yet.
So we have some more work to do.
Stefan, thank you so much.
Now before you go, where can content creators and companies go to find out more about products?
(13:14):
We have a webpage and they could email me or call me or I'm sure they could find us.
But the webpage is a good start.
PodXGroup.com.
Stefan, thank you so much for your time.
Exciting times for PodX.
And I look forward to meeting Frederick in London.
And thank you so much for talking to me Sam.
It's been great.
Talk to you again soon.
I'm joined by the CEO of PodX, his name is Stefan Rossell, he's over in Sweden.
(00:05):
Stefan, how are you?
I'm fine, thank you.
How are you?
Very well, very well.
Now, Stefan, you came onto Pod News' radar about April last year when we wrote about
the fact that there's a new podcast investment company that's launched in Sweden called the
PodX Group.
And your goal was to invest into international podcast IP rights and offer financing business
(00:28):
development, internationalisation and commercialisation to emerging podcast producers and creators.
So that was the background to it.
We were like, oh, that sounds very interesting.
And subsequent to that, you got very active.
So you started to get into buying companies in France like Nouvellequests and companies
in the UK like Gold Hawk Productions.
(00:50):
But before we get into some of those stories, take us a step back.
What is your background and how did you come about forming PodX?
Well, I worked in media for the past 20 years and I've been leading the operations for Viacom,
Proceedings Ations, Discovery and last before I founded PodX, Bauer Media here in the Nordic
(01:14):
market.
Yeah, very big group.
Yeah.
And during that time, the last five years, I was really driving the digital and the podcast
agenda within Bauer internationally and mission, the importance of radio companies embracing
and developing their digital future.
(01:35):
So that's sort of my background and my thinking behind PodX.
Now, who are your co-founders in the business then?
It's Patrick Svenske, who's been a TV man, you could say he's built Odiak, which is today
a part of the BannerJ and Nice Entertainment for the Viaplay Group and also Fredrik Said,
(01:55):
who comes from ACOST and is really the one of us who has the most sort of international
podcast background.
So Patrick, he has built, if you like, something like PodX in the TV world and Fredrik has
been an important part of the international expansion of ACOST.
And I've been working with audio entertainment for most of my work life.
(02:19):
So given what I said right at the beginning, that your goal is to help emerging podcast
producers, creators with finance as well as IP rights, what is your business model then?
What is PodX's model?
What we like to do is to build a world leading international podcast collective, if you like,
a collective or a group of the best, including the best podcast creators in the world.
(02:45):
We think that by bringing them together, they will become stronger, learn from each other,
take each other's formats international and really because the background is really that
we see that many of the podcast businesses are very small, but very talented, but together
they will become stronger.
(03:05):
So the business model is really to invest in these companies and to become a majority
shareholder.
It's not because we want everyone to become the same.
Everyone will keep their brands, their podcasts, their culture, their language, their nationality.
But if we can consolidate this in one group, we think that the sense of belonging to one
(03:28):
group and the, what you say, the will to actually help each other will be much stronger.
So we become majority shareholders of the businesses that we invest in and the founders
of those businesses become minority shareholders of PodX.
So that's why we believe it's truly a collective.
I mean, in a few years time, podcast creators from all over the world will together own
(03:51):
maybe half of PodX.
In the Web 1.0 world, I used to work for a company called CMGI based out of Boston.
I was their marketing director and we had a very similar model.
We had AltaVista, Turome, Navio.
I mean, we had about 60 companies eventually within the portfolio.
And the synergy that those companies brought to each other was what raised the value.
(04:13):
I think CMGI was raised to over a billion dollars.
I guess what you're saying is the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
It's the PodX family together will make a stronger proposition.
How do you fund and finance it?
We're financed and funded by a company called Calbo, an investment company.
So they are the majority shareholder now of PodX and they provide the financing for the
(04:37):
investments that we do.
And we're not necessarily looking for an advertising network.
We are very neutral when it comes to business models.
I mean, we see that there is an advertising business model.
There is a subscription business model out there.
There are commissioners ordering and asking for content from podcast creators.
(05:01):
There are branded podcasts.
So there are multiple business models around podcasting at the moment.
And we don't know and I don't think anyone knows which of those will grow the fastest
and be more successful.
I think that many of these models will exist in parallel.
And if you compare with the television and other medias.
So it's very important for us to say that we like podcast companies that do great content
(05:26):
and that have found a business model that works for them.
And it's not necessarily the same business model as another company that we invest in.
So that's how we think around that.
So given that you've got quite a large portfolio now and quite a diverse portfolio, I mean,
you've got companies in Argentina now and recently you acquired the one in Finland.
(05:48):
How do you determine which one to go for next?
Do you just say, right, Italy is a market you want to be in, let's go and find a player
or do you go and find a company first that just happens to be in another country?
What's the criteria for acquiring the next company?
Very relevant question and something that we talk about a lot.
But we have decided to limit ourselves to Europe primarily and Latin America.
(06:12):
And we believe for business purposes very much in big languages that could reach many
people.
English being the most important one, but also Spanish and French.
So we believe very much in the greater markets in Europe and Latin America with a lot of
people and big languages.
(06:32):
So that's sort of the frame.
But within that frame, we are looking for very creative and successful companies when
it comes to content creation, companies that won prizes, but also companies that have proven
that they can make successful podcasts over and over again and generate revenue around
those podcasts.
(06:53):
So content is the core.
That's the most important part.
Management is very important, showing that you can actually do something with your content
business wise.
And then we also like evergreen content so that you actually can use your content over
and over again.
History is a perfect example.
True crime documentaries where you can actually listen to something today and you can listen
(07:19):
to the same thing in five or 10 years with the same level of excitement.
That's the type of content that we like.
And then last but not least, we like companies that have the ambition to protect and keep
as much as possible of their content in order to be able to do business with it onwards
and in the future.
(07:39):
So that's the main criteria, as I would say.
Given one of your founders has got a TV background, do you see taking these podcasts and putting
these to TV and film?
Is that one of the roads to market?
It could be, but it's not one of the main roads.
We say to all the companies that we meet that it's audio first, it's podcast first.
(08:00):
And if you're successful and you have something fantastic that someone wants to make television
or film out of, that's great, but that's a bonus.
It's the icing on the cake.
We are almost a bit worried about podcast companies that think too much of the possibility
that everything will become television and film because that's not going to happen.
That will be, I think, the exception rather than the rule.
(08:23):
So when it comes to format development and how to make business out of your IP, we much
more believe in that a great podcast in Finland could be translated to French and English
and Spanish and be successful as a podcast in other territories.
Right.
So Podimo, based out of Denmark, has a very similar model to you, although they acquire
(08:48):
it to go into the Podimo app.
And then they look at translating that into multiple other different languages and countries.
And they've stayed out very much until recently the UK market.
But what is it with Sweden?
You've got Spotify, you've got Acast, you've got Podimo, you've got PodX.
I mean, what's going on in the water over there?
(09:09):
It's probably not for me to answer because it's a much bigger question.
But you're right that, you know, starting maybe with Spotify and even earlier, there
is a business culture here.
Yeah, absolutely.
There is a business culture here around technology that is it's just here.
And it's like I said, I'm humble enough to realize that I'm not the person to explain
(09:30):
that because it's a much bigger topic, but it's here.
And yeah, I guess you have to have certain financial resources to be successful in building
businesses and maybe especially global businesses with the technology.
And you know, this part of the world is lucky enough to have a high GDP and good schools
(09:51):
and all the rest of it.
So social welfare and what have you.
But it's interesting that many companies come from here.
But back to your first question there, we do not at all see Podimo as competitors.
We rather see them as business partners because they are commissioning content from several
of our companies.
(10:12):
So they are really clients.
I mean, they are coming to our companies and asking for content.
We see them more as a platform and a distribution partner for the content that our businesses
create.
So did I miss something in the story of PODX?
Did you do a funding round because obviously Podimo raised 75 million, which has allowed
(10:33):
them to go and do what they're doing.
You've obviously got backers, but you know, is the backer a VC or private equity?
I mean, how much more can you invest, you know, going forward?
We don't know exactly how much more we can invest, but the company, Carbo, that found
us has great backing.
(10:54):
It's not private equity, but the money comes from private equity originally.
And now it's a private office.
And if they like what we're doing, they could invest a lot more.
So we're not going for any external rounds trying to find money elsewhere.
We have the financial backing that we need.
So fast forward six months from now, I mean, more acquisitions in the pipeline?
(11:16):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think we will probably do, you know, two to four more acquisitions within that period.
But we're also now going into a very interesting phase.
And this is really where the work begins, that we want to deliver the advantages of
being a products company to the companies that we have invested in the last six months.
So we're now working hard with the business development, content creation, exchanging
(11:42):
ideas, exchanging formats, working with IP and the legal side of things in order to not
give everything away to the commissioners.
But now it's really when the fun and the real work starts when we actually have six companies
in the group.
So what's the exit strategy for products if there is one yet?
Yeah, I like to say and to think that you should not think too much about the next strategy.
(12:07):
You should think about building a fantastic business, because if you have a fantastic
business, you can keep it and live from the dividends.
You can put it on the stock market or you could sell it.
So the core of any business exit strategy should be to build a fantastic business.
And that's what we're trying to do.
I only mentioned it because Spotify and Acast are both floated on markets right now.
(12:30):
I just wondered if that's a natural evolution for you guys.
It could be, but it could be keeping it or it could be selling it as a whole or it could
be the stock market.
Definitely.
But we are really at a very early stage.
We have just bought the first six businesses in the last six months.
And we want to build a group to become bigger and more profitable and a leader when it comes
(12:53):
to content development and IP creation and development of business around IP in the world
for podcasters.
And we are not there yet.
So we have some more work to do.
Stefan, thank you so much.
Now before you go, where can content creators and companies go to find out more about products?
(13:14):
We have a webpage and they could email me or call me or I'm sure they could find us.
But the webpage is a good start.
PodXGroup.com.
Stefan, thank you so much for your time.
Exciting times for PodX.
And I look forward to meeting Frederick in London.
And thank you so much for talking to me Sam.
It's been great.
Talk to you again soon.
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