In this episode, Chris sits down with Marco Bario — former film and TV executive turned seller finance expert and founder of Porch Swing Funding. Marco shares his journey from the chaos of Hollywood production sets to the structure and strategy of note investing. They discuss the importance of patience, transparency, and relationship-building in deal-making, as well as why staying in your lane can be the most powerful growth move.
Marco also previews his upcoming session at the Paper Trail Conference, where he’ll walk through how to build trust with individual sellers and navigate one-on-one conversations — a crucial but often overlooked skill in this business.
🎟 Ready to learn from voices like Marco's? Join us at Paper Trail, Sept 18–20 in Chandler, AZ: https://papertrailconference.com/registration/
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Episode Transcript
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(00:45):
On this episode of the PaperTrail podcast, I interviewed Marco
Barrio from Porch Swing Funding.
Marco will be speaking at theevent, which is September 18th to
20th in Chandler, Arizona.
For more information again,check out papertrailconference.com
Love this conversation.
A lot of insights andinteresting comments about maturity
(01:11):
and patience within investing.
And that's an area where a lotof people miss the boat in regards
to having that patience andreally focused on one opportunity
and taking one foot in frontof the next.
So hope you enjoy this episodewith Marco and look forward to seeing
(01:32):
you.
September in Chandler, Arizona.
Hey Marco, how are you today?
I'm good, Chris.
How are you?
Good.
It's a Friday afternoon.
I put on a shirt my wiferecently bought me because she always
complains that she buys methings that I don't use or wear because
(01:52):
I have, like, favorites.
And as a man on Creature ofHabit, you just have, you know, stick
to the same thing all the time.
But my wife actually was likethis morning, she's like, I'm proud
of you.
I'm like, oh, what'd I do?
She's like, you're wearingyour new shirt.
So I think that was a smart choice.
But yeah, people listenersaren't here to hear about my attire
(02:14):
in any way, shape or form.
They are here to listen to,love to learn more about you and
talk about the upcoming PaperTrail conference we're hosting and
you are going to be speaking.
So thank you very much.
What I'd like to do is startwith your story.
(02:35):
How did you get started ininvesting in the first place?
My story starts in Hollywood.
Like all stories.
Ultimately, no, my storystarts in Hollywood.
I was a burned out Hollywoodfilm and television, I don't know,
employee, worker, executive.
(02:56):
I worked in the Hollywood filmand television industry for about,
I don't know, 17 years or so.
I worked in production.
I spent a lot of money.
We had a budget and wecouldn't go over budget.
But I never learned how tomake money until eventually I did
change roles in Hollywood.
And I worked for a largecompany called Technicolor.
And that's the first time theythrew me in a room and showed me
a profit and loss statement.
(03:16):
And it wasn't, it didn't lookgood, I can tell you.
And we had our work cut outfor us.
So although parts of thatexperience weren't where I wanted
to be long term, I got the bugto become an entrepreneur.
Yep.
A lot of people get that bug.
How old were you when you gotthe bug?
I was mid-40s.
(03:37):
Okay.
Yep.
So it's interesting.
I saw a post on I forgetwhere, you know, I'm on bigger pockets,
Reddit, Facebook, and youknow, where I death scroll in the
evening sometime.
And somebody asked a questionthat I'm 42 years old.
Am I too old to be an entrepreneur?
And I was like, immediatelylike, you're still young.
(04:00):
Like, you know, I thinkthere's studies out there that most
people don't start tillthey're in their 50s.
You know, to a lot of entrepreneurs.
I'm not surprised I dosomething really different than what
I'd done previously.
But the life experience hashelped a lot.
Yeah.
To, you know, when, when mykids were looking.
This is off topic and I'lljust take a second.
But when my kids were figuringout, you know, what they want to
(04:21):
be when they grow up, I.
E.
What are they going to studyin college?
I'm like, kind of doesn't matter.
Go have the college experience.
And I do something reallydifferent than what I studied in
college.
But it's okay.
I still brought a lot with me.
Yeah.
I think it was Gary Vaynerchukor somebody made the comment, college
isn't really there to make youan expert at anything.
(04:41):
It's there to show a futureemployer that you can spend four
years focused and learning andget through a type of process before
as you start to mature, soyou're starting to be ready for the
real world, whether it's doingdegree in X or Y.
Now, some degrees, of course,you know, are much better than others.
I think everyone can agree to that.
But really the basis of it is,you know, to focus on something for
(05:04):
a period of time and be ableto accomplish it and prove that you
can get something done duringthat time.
So employers in the future canlook at and say, okay, this person
has some responsibilities.
So I actually proved to myselfI could do that.
I would.
I studied televisionproduction and they threw us in a
studio and they threw us inlive events and out in the street
with cameras and we had to,like, figure out how to make things
(05:25):
and, and I build a lot ofconfidence in the process.
So I, I'm one who argues forcollege for that reason.
Yep.
So what's something about yourjourney that, you know, most people
don't know, but.
Probably should, you know,that I, I, I tipped it a bit.
My background had nothing todo with real estate until my mid-40s.
(05:47):
And there's, there's a book.
I didn't know about the bookat the time.
It probably wasn't out, butthere's an author named Jen Sincero.
And I quote her all the timebecause she's got this series, books
like, you know, you are abadass at making money, you're a
badass at whatever.
They're really good books.
And if you listen to the.
Listen to her on Audible, she,she narrates them and she's funny
too, so.
Highly recommend.
(06:07):
Pretty lightweight, but still inspirational.
But she has a phrase.
She says that everything's figureoutable.
And again, the prior life experience.
We had to figure out how tomake TV shows in my prior career,
how to, how to deliver day anddate international Disney releases
across the, across the world.
Everything's figureoutable.
And as one tries on a lot ofthings and whether it's college,
(06:30):
whether it's summer jobs, webuild confidence so we realize that
whatever problems come ourway, we can figure it out.
So I was able to bring thatinto this new career and learn how
to be a note investor.
I knew nothing about all thesethings before.
Yeah.
I don't know any school thatactually teaches about note investing.
Correct.
It's a school of hard knocks.
(06:50):
So.
Correct.
But as we talk more aboutinvesting, everyone has a core investment
philosophy.
If you could describe yoursand one or a few sentences, what
would yours be?
And where did you, you know,where did it come from?
It came from and it wasdeveloped over several reps.
(07:11):
In the beginning, I, and Ithink some other investors are just
so excited to have access to a deal.
Oh, I'm going to do that deal, man.
That's mine.
I'm grabbing it.
And I did okay.
But with reps, I developedmore discipline.
And it sounds simple to say,but until I bump into a few walls
(07:33):
on my path through thisjourney of learning and growing as,
as an investor, the disciplinecomes not just from saying no to
certain deals, but being moreselective about the deals I choose
because they lead to the endresult that I want.
You know, there's a, there'snow a business plan in place for
me where there wasn't.
When I was starting out, thebusiness plan was, oh, go make a
(07:54):
lot of money and notes.
But now there's a moredefinitive business plan, and I choose
assets and deals and, andpaths based on that.
Yeah.
And it's interesting because Iwas having a call earlier today with
an individual who has been,you know, a little frustrated with
where they're, where they've,how far they've gotten in the space
and asked me for, you know,their, my honest opinion, which I'm
(08:18):
never shy to give my honestopinion on things.
And the two things that thisindividual I gave for some constructive
feedback was they're chasingtoo much in regards to.
They're spending too much timefocused on, oh, I need to find more
(08:38):
sellers, I need to find more sellers.
And what I told them is, youknow, buy a deal from somebody, then
just focus on that one personin regards to if they bring you a
deal after you.
Somebody brings you a deal andyou prove that you can go through
the process and close in timein a timely fashion and make that
process easy for them, youwon't believe how many more deals
(09:01):
can come your way.
And when I look at a lot ofdeal flow that we've gotten, it's
really based on thoserelationships I've built over the
years.
And not a lot of them are fromnewer people, but it's people who
have said, oh, I've closedwith Chris, let me see if he's interested
in this deal, because I know,you know, what he likes and this
is his type of deal.
(09:22):
And, you know, he does what hesays he's typically going to do.
So, you know, that's one thingthat I think, you know, goes to what
you said about that, you know,that discipline.
Yeah, absolutely.
And then delivering.
This is what I said I'm goingto do and I'm going to do it.
Yep.
You know, and this mightactually, you know, the prior question
might, you know, be similar toresponse to this one.
(09:43):
But what's one principle youlive by in business that kind of
guides how you treat vendors,investors, borrowers, partners, just
everyone you work with in this space.
So that.
Yeah, and it is very much connected.
But the word is.
The word is transparency.
Things don't always.
I picked this up in myprevious life working in film and
(10:04):
television production.
Every day is a controlledchaos, I promise you.
Every day we have a plan andevery day things go a little bit
off plan.
We have to pivot and we haveto figure out how to still make our
day or our budget or ourdelivery date or whatever the case
may be.
And investing in business ingeneral is the same.
(10:25):
And if you're transparent withyour partners, whether they be your
sellers, your investors, yourvendors, I find that I move to the
top of the list when there's.
When there's anotheropportunity with those people or
they were.
They're recommending me to thenext person I'm going to do business
with.
We just had a situation wherewe're doing due diligence on an asset
(10:47):
and seller had a valuation onthis asset property of now it was
about $900,000 valuation.
And we are still in theprocess of waiting on title and going
through everything.
And our BPO came back and itcame back like in the low sevens,
so it was about $200,000 off.
(11:09):
And, you know, we were very transparent.
We reached back, there's abroker involved in the process as
well.
And we sent the BPO to theborrower, to the broker and, and
basically said, hey, look,here's the valuation that we're getting,
is there?
And instead of just saying,oh, we're, you know, we got to fade,
we got to do this becausehere's our valuation.
(11:30):
We play it of.
Is there another valuationthat they have that, you know, they
got from somebody that showstheir value?
So then we can like kind ofreview and figure out, okay, who's
right and who's wrong.
Because I know if we're atseven in there at nine, there's no
agreement that's going to comein place because they're not going
(11:50):
to accept the fade that we'dbe looking to in that price range.
So trying to figure out.
And they actually were tryingto get interior access to the property
and do a few things whichunfortunately they haven't been able
to or were able to.
So for the time, we basicallyare just like, okay, we'll pause
and just pass on it.
But if it comes back around,hey, we're interested in taking a
look.
But our numbers, and we lookedat it, seem to be more in line compared
(12:16):
to the numbers that they had.
But it's again, part of thattransparency and, you know, letting
people know.
And some people will call thatbad news or, you know, some type
of conflict, because I get thesense people try to avoid conflict,
which only leads to greaterconflict down the line because eventually
(12:38):
it's going to pop.
Would you agree?
I would agree.
And I'm going to go a littlebit deep here for a second.
I always say thatentrepreneurship is personal growth,
and I hate delivering bad newsbecause I do not like conflict.
And you can ask me about myrelationship with my mother if you
want to go deeper on that.
I'm telling youentrepreneurship is personal growth.
(12:59):
And I would not have achievedthe level of success I have now.
And I won't be able tocontinue growing unless I continue
to kind of look at the thingsthat built me and who I am.
Yeah.
And, you know, that's a great.
I never thought about that,about the personal growth and why
look at it for the successesthat I've had.
I'm from New Englandoriginally, so, you know, and Worked
(13:22):
in, you know, constructionmanagement with unions and very conflict
oriented business.
So when I came into this spaceI was probably a little rough around
the edges and you know,probably a little bit too conflict
oriented in creating conflictversus solving problems which I know
probably rubbed people thewrong way actually.
I know it did.
And now that I look back, I'ma much calmer, tamer version of myself.
(13:45):
And it's because of growth andmaturity really is what, you know,
you look at it and even beingI'm turning 50 this year, you know,
you can always continue tomature, you know, as you, you grow
and just from your learning experiences.
So 100% yes.
Oh, you're speaking at PaperTrail Conference.
(14:06):
I like to ask people why wasit important for you to be a part
of, of this event outside ofjust knowing how awesome of an individual
I am?
Because I know that's probablyeveryone's number one answer, but
outside of that, you know, whyis it important to you?
Well, let me think if I canthink of a different answer because
that was definitely my answer.
(14:26):
No, you are an awesomeindividual, Chris.
And your style has alwaysattracted the people who want to
hear the truth about the business.
You don't.
You said it out loud earlierand everybody who's follows, follows
you knows this.
You really don't hold muchback and that's not true of everybody
(14:46):
in our industry.
Sometimes just the good is shared.
And so for me, first of all,thank you for having these, these
individual tracks.
I'm really excited thatthere's a seller finance track because
that's the space I'm in.
But I'm also going to belistening to private lending because
I am like ignorant on that.
(15:06):
I'm really excited to go learnabout that.
So that's going to be reallyfun for me.
But I'm gonna, the, the topicI'm gonna be talking about has to
do with talking to sellers andyou were talking about your process
and brokers and fading bidsand I'm dealing with, you know, sweet,
sweet, you know, 65 year oldwomen in Florida, you know, and they
have one note to sell.
That's the only note they'veever created in their life.
(15:28):
My world is different, very different.
And I think that there are anumber of people who come into our
industry and they'reinterested in what I do, but they're
a little afraid to have thoseone on one conversations.
So that's what we're going tobe talking about.
Talking about the personalgrowth, honestly, getting the reps
in and some tricks andcoaching, frankly on how those conversations
(15:52):
can be a little bit easier to have.
So I'm excited to share that and.
With speaking on that, peoplelistening to this session, what's
one thing you hope that theycan learn or think differently or
get out of that conversation?
I'm different than some people who.
We'll call it sales training,although it's a little softer than
(16:17):
that.
I'm a little different thanpeople who come in with a script
or lines or badger the personbecause you created a note that's
terrible and obviously wecan't pay much for it.
I just have nice conversationswith people and I find not.
It's not for everybody.
(16:38):
I can't close every deal.
Maybe the more aggressiveperson is going to close that deal
that I'm not going to close.
But the people I do work with,it's a nice experience and it's not,
believe it or not, I'm anintrovert and I found that my way
in was just to haveconversations with people.
So that's, that's, that'swhere I'm going to be headed with
(16:59):
it.
Okay.
Interesting.
Because you're.
The way you approach these borrowers.
Sellers.
These are the sellers.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
The sellers in regards to, youknow, having that conversation is
interesting because like yousaid, most people think about, again,
(17:21):
on the real estate side tryingto either whether you're acquiring
the note or, you know, peoplecalling about properties more look
at as a transactional processwhere it sounds like you're more
relation again back to thatrelationship based.
So that's, that's a reallyinteresting philosophy and I know
you've been very successful atit, so that must be something that's
been working for you.
(17:43):
It works.
It's the only way to work withsomeone who you can imagine somebody
calling and probably go toofar into this and I'll try to keep
it brief, but calling.
And again, they've only evercreated one seller finance note in
their life and they've neversold one.
And it deals with money andit's a lot of money.
And they're talking some per.
They're calling some personthey found on the Internet who they've
(18:03):
never spoken with before.
And if I can spend some timejust making them comfortable.
My favorite deals I close arethe ones they said, well, we got
a quote from someone and itwas for a little bit more, but we
like you better.
Yeah.
So no, I love those.
Oh, yeah.
Well, yeah, those, those areawesome because it just shows that,
you know, it's goes back tothat relationship.
(18:24):
And they again felt like theybuilt that relationship with you.
Trust.
No like and trust, you know,that's exactly.
But yeah.
So I know you've worked with alot of different type of people and
investors in the space.
In your opinion, what makessomebody better than somebody?
And again, I don't like usingthe term better, but if you kind
(18:46):
of, you know, put the MichaelJordan on the, you know, mountain
of investors, what's a traitthat somebody has, in your opinion
that makes them excel.
For investors?
Yeah, well, since youmentioned Michael Jordan, I find
that most of the deals I doare layups.
(19:07):
And then every now and thenI'm at the three point line and I've
got a great shot and I go forit or I use the baseball analogy
a lot.
We all go for singles and doubles.
A lot of people use that.
And every now and then, evenwhen I don't expect it, that thing
just went out of the park thatfelt good.
And then the next one thatlooks just like that deal that I
think is going to go out ofthe park too.
I'm lucky to get on base.
(19:29):
It's just how it is.
So patience.
Patience, yeah.
It's one thing that I find alot of people getting started don't
have and I don't know if it'sbecause they've seen somebody who's
pushing a certain mantra inthe space of it's a get rich quick
scheme.
(19:50):
But I always tell people firstquestion I ask them when they say,
hey, I want to get involved innote investing, I tell them, I'm
like, you realize this is along play.
This isn't a get rich quick.
This isn't like buying a quickmultifamily building that you think
you can rehab and add value,add and flip it in a year and make
all this money or go build something.
(20:10):
It is slow and steady wins arace where like you mentioned, and
we use this analogy a lot, wewant to hit the singles and doubles.
We don't want to be thestrikeout hitter who hits a home
run now and then.
We are the Tony Gwyns of thespace where we just want to on base
and hit those singles and doubles.
Jay Redding spoke to the Noteinvesting group that I helped to
(20:32):
run last night and he talksabout his 20 years as an investor.
He was doing flips.
He's done some wholesale deals.
He's buy and hold, obviously notes.
And there's a reason he's beenat it for 20 years.
But I think what people don'trealize is a 20 years actually goes
really quick, but when youstart stacking notes on top of notes,
(20:55):
it is, it makes a difference.
It really does.
So.
Yeah, then the early payoffsstart coming in.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, there's some, there'ssome great potential there.
So we kind of talked about itnot being a get rich quick business.
Outside of that, what are somemistakes you often see newer investors
make and you try to help them avoid?
(21:18):
There's when, when I'm hungryin real life, I tend to gravitate
towards bad food decisions.
Yeah.
And when investors are hungryin real life, they tend to gravitate
towards bad investment decisions.
We talked about patience earlier.
(21:38):
So it's, it's the same topic.
It's, it's.
You've, you've got to.
One Tracy Z.
Who obviously is part of, ofthe conference, always talks about
you have to kiss a lot of frogs.
Sometimes you just have tokiss a lot of FR to find the ones
that are the right ones.
I love that analogy about thefood because last night I was starving
(21:59):
and the first thing I wentwas, I'm like, I'm gonna go have
a few Doritos.
And was probably the worstthing that I could eat.
But they are really good andwith the MSG you can't just have
one.
But that is so true because Iknow of investors who like, you know,
get a payoff on a loan and allof a sudden it's like, okay, I gotta
go buy something and they justwanna get that money out the door
(22:19):
as fast as possible.
Or, or they just startedraising money and they got money
from an investor and it'slike, oh, now I'm just going to go,
you know, it's like I can justgo buy whatever I want.
And it should be the opposite.
You should actually even takemore time and due diligence, make
sure you're buying the right assets.
Not something that is going toend up being a nightmare.
(22:41):
And not only that, but staywithin your lane.
And what I mean by that is Isee a lot of people chasing the shiny
object of one day they're anode investor, next day they're investing
in crypto, next day they'reinvesting in oil and gas.
Next day they want to go startmultifamily, next day they want to
do short term rentals.
(23:01):
And you know, it's likethey're chasing whatever they see
on the news, which you know is not.
Each one of those assetclasses I just mentioned is bad.
I'm not knocking those, butjust you have to have focused and
pick Something you'll be good at.
And I go by the philosophy,I'd rather be great at one thing
than an average Joe in 50.
(23:22):
And that's just my fat that's made.
All the difference in my career.
I think, you know, I startedby not performing seconds because
there were more of them and Ifound it interesting and then I changed
lanes.
But every now and then one ofthose comes across my desk and I'm
like, you know, and I don't do it.
I don't do it because it takesmy focus away from what I'm doing.
(23:43):
I should be focusing on it.
It's funny because we hadbought probably a year and a half
ago a pool of loans and therewas like 10 seconds or 15 seconds
in that pool that were non performing.
And the seller, literallyright before this call, sent me an
email, is like, oh, we've gotthese three pools of seconds that
we'd really like you to bid on.
(24:03):
And he knows that I don't like seconds.
It's almost like, you know,going to somebody basically.
Like, I quit drinking a fewyears ago and I have an occasional
drink, but you, it's almostlike coming to me, it's like, hey,
you want to go for a beer?
It's like, well, you know, Idon't do that.
But with these seconds, it'ssame thing.
It's like sometimes it'stempting because, oh, it's a hundred
(24:24):
of them that you can pick upat a good price.
But in the same token, it'slike, nope, I'm good.
You know, it's that disciplineto say no.
It pulls energy away fromother places.
Exactly.
Yep.
And reality is we all like tothink we have unlimited energy.
The reality is we don't.
Okay, well, let's kind of roll into.
(24:44):
As we wrap up a little bit ofa lightning round that I like to
talk about, and first questionthat I like to pose to people is
if you could take one word todescribe the current market, how
would you describe it?
Exciting.
Ooh, I like that.
(25:05):
I'm going to have to ask youto dive a little bit deeper on that
one because that was one Iwasn't expecting.
So remember, remember what I do?
I work in a, in a space wherehigher interest rates and uncertainty
can increase the, theinventory of seller finance notes.
And we've seen that over thelast several years.
(25:26):
So to me, that's exciting,that's opportunity.
And also uncertainty is justhead on a swivel.
Exciting.
So it's, it can play both ways.
Yeah.
And just love to get people'sopinions on.
And again, neither one of usare providing advice or we're not,
you know, economists or so forth.
But curious where you thinkinterest rates will be heading over
(25:46):
the next six to 12 months.
Was in the car earlier todayand was listening to someone and
I was tending to agree that in12 to 16 months we'll start to see
a drop in interest rates.
And I'm more comfortable predict.
I can't tell you if that's intwo months or that's in 14 months
(26:06):
but we'll see a drop.
Not significant, but we'll see enough.
Let's hope for the commercialreal estate space because that makes
a big difference.
Somebody posted on LinkedInrecently, I know they were in lightning
round but you understand a onepoint drop in interest rates for
a large scale commercialdeveloper is the difference between
a private jet or not.
(26:27):
Yeah, it's huge, Big, big difference.
And I'll just say I kind ofagree with you where I think we're
kind of going to be floatingin this purgatory of rates are going
to, you know, go up a littlebit, go down a little bit and slowly
start making their way down.
I mean someone asked the otherday when we think rates will be back
in like at 3% and I'm like.
Never, you know, unless we'vereally messed up again.
(26:50):
Well and that's what I mentioned.
I'm like unless the economy isreally in trouble and then your property
is probably worth about halfthe price because the economy would
have to really tank and theperson's like well if they're at
3%, my house worth three timesthe amount.
And I'm like, you think thatbut pro not if interest rates get
that low, that's probably not okay.
We are in lightning round andI'm the worst offender of this because
(27:11):
I can talk a dog off a meat wagon.
What's one thing you'vechanged your mind about in the last
year?
Funny anecdote.
I, I, I was this links to theearlier conversation headed in the
(27:31):
direction of pursuing a buyand hold rental portfolio.
Not one in particular.
Building one.
Yep.
And it sounded like a greatidea until I woke up one day and
said I'm getting pretty darngood at this note thing and I'm just
going to stay focused on that.
And that was a big point of growth.
This connects to a lot in the conversation.
Growth, understanding what I'mmy business focus needs to be and
(27:53):
where my energy needs to be.
So that was big.
That was earlier this year.
That is big because you kindof get sometimes you see like, oh,
there's opportunity or this orthat, and it's like again, that shiny
object of do I chase it or so great.
And if you know one person,you know, thank for where you are
today, your success, who wouldyou want to thank?
(28:13):
Huh?
I posted on LinkedIn recentlyit was a Mother's Day post, but my
mom followed this, My motherfollowed this career of.
She worked in, she was anewspaper reporter, then she worked
in politics and then sheworked in the corporate world and
then she went off and startedher own business.
And my production world was alot probably like her time in politics.
(28:34):
And then I worked for a corporation.
I didn't care for thecorporate part just like she didn't.
And then she became an entrepreneur.
I don't think I would have hadthe guts or the confidence to become
an entrepreneur had she notdone it first.
So I thank her for that.
Awesome.
Most people have a lot ofthankful things, of course, from
their parents or their motherand yours, the entrepreneur side.
(28:57):
That's awesome.
So it's great as we wrap up.
Marco, any final thoughtsbefore we wrap up this episode of
the Paper Trail podcast?
This is going to be, this isnot a paid sponsorship.
This is me a great conference.
I can, I can, I have reallygood feelings about the conference.
I already know of severalpeople I'm really excited to connect
(29:19):
with there and, and I'mexcited to connect with people I
haven't met yet with there.
And even like you mentionedearlier, and that was kind of, you
know, what we were talkingabout is, you know, you've got seller
financing down, you know, theplayers in the space and you know,
you're one of the leaders inthat space and you know, we, we bring
in this private lendingsegment which you know, has some,
(29:41):
you know, I'll say somesimilar characteristics to seller
financing in the sense of, youknow, sometimes you might originate
paper, buy it, but you knowlittle but it's a completely different
animal.
But there's people in thatspace that I know having conversations
because we weren't in thatspace and we've done a little bit
in that space.
There's just so much you learnthat not only from that side, but
(30:01):
you can apply to your currentbusiness as well.
And that's where just gettingpeople with similar mindsets but
in different asset class ofnode investing was something that
we really wanted to accomplish.
So pretty cool.
It's a good idea.
Well, thanks for coming ontoday, Marco.
For those listening, make sureto leave us a like share and for
(30:22):
more information on the conference.
It's September 18th to 20th inChandler, Arizona, and you can go
to papertrailconference.comthank you all.
On this episode of the PaperTrail podcast, I interviewed Marco
Barrio from Porch Swing Funding.
Marco will be speaking at theevent, which is September 18th to
20th in Chandler, Arizona.
For more information again,check out papertrailconference.com
Love this conversation.
A lot of insights andinteresting comments about maturity
(01:11):
and patience within investing.
And that's an area where a lotof people miss the boat in regards
to having that patience andreally focused on one opportunity
and taking one foot in frontof the next.
So hope you enjoy this episodewith Marco and look forward to seeing
(01:32):
you.
September in Chandler, Arizona.
Hey Marco, how are you today?
I'm good, Chris.
How are you?
Good.
It's a Friday afternoon.
I put on a shirt my wiferecently bought me because she always
complains that she buys methings that I don't use or wear because
(01:52):
I have, like, favorites.
And as a man on Creature ofHabit, you just have, you know, stick
to the same thing all the time.
But my wife actually was likethis morning, she's like, I'm proud
of you.
I'm like, oh, what'd I do?
She's like, you're wearingyour new shirt.
So I think that was a smart choice.
But yeah, people listenersaren't here to hear about my attire
(02:14):
in any way, shape or form.
They are here to listen to,love to learn more about you and
talk about the upcoming PaperTrail conference we're hosting and
you are going to be speaking.
So thank you very much.
What I'd like to do is startwith your story.
(02:35):
How did you get started ininvesting in the first place?
My story starts in Hollywood.
Like all stories.
Ultimately, no, my storystarts in Hollywood.
I was a burned out Hollywoodfilm and television, I don't know,
employee, worker, executive.
(02:56):
I worked in the Hollywood filmand television industry for about,
I don't know, 17 years or so.
I worked in production.
I spent a lot of money.
We had a budget and wecouldn't go over budget.
But I never learned how tomake money until eventually I did
change roles in Hollywood.
And I worked for a largecompany called Technicolor.
And that's the first time theythrew me in a room and showed me
a profit and loss statement.
(03:16):
And it wasn't, it didn't lookgood, I can tell you.
And we had our work cut outfor us.
So although parts of thatexperience weren't where I wanted
to be long term, I got the bugto become an entrepreneur.
Yep.
A lot of people get that bug.
How old were you when you gotthe bug?
I was mid-40s.
(03:37):
Okay.
Yep.
So it's interesting.
I saw a post on I forgetwhere, you know, I'm on bigger pockets,
Reddit, Facebook, and youknow, where I death scroll in the
evening sometime.
And somebody asked a questionthat I'm 42 years old.
Am I too old to be an entrepreneur?
And I was like, immediatelylike, you're still young.
(04:00):
Like, you know, I thinkthere's studies out there that most
people don't start tillthey're in their 50s.
You know, to a lot of entrepreneurs.
I'm not surprised I dosomething really different than what
I'd done previously.
But the life experience hashelped a lot.
Yeah.
To, you know, when, when mykids were looking.
This is off topic and I'lljust take a second.
But when my kids were figuringout, you know, what they want to
(04:21):
be when they grow up, I.
E.
What are they going to studyin college?
I'm like, kind of doesn't matter.
Go have the college experience.
And I do something reallydifferent than what I studied in
college.
But it's okay.
I still brought a lot with me.
Yeah.
I think it was Gary Vaynerchukor somebody made the comment, college
isn't really there to make youan expert at anything.
(04:41):
It's there to show a futureemployer that you can spend four
years focused and learning andget through a type of process before
as you start to mature, soyou're starting to be ready for the
real world, whether it's doingdegree in X or Y.
Now, some degrees, of course,you know, are much better than others.
I think everyone can agree to that.
But really the basis of it is,you know, to focus on something for
(05:04):
a period of time and be ableto accomplish it and prove that you
can get something done duringthat time.
So employers in the future canlook at and say, okay, this person
has some responsibilities.
So I actually proved to myselfI could do that.
I would.
I studied televisionproduction and they threw us in a
studio and they threw us inlive events and out in the street
with cameras and we had to,like, figure out how to make things
(05:25):
and, and I build a lot ofconfidence in the process.
So I, I'm one who argues forcollege for that reason.
Yep.
So what's something about yourjourney that, you know, most people
don't know, but.
Probably should, you know,that I, I, I tipped it a bit.
My background had nothing todo with real estate until my mid-40s.
(05:47):
And there's, there's a book.
I didn't know about the bookat the time.
It probably wasn't out, butthere's an author named Jen Sincero.
And I quote her all the timebecause she's got this series, books
like, you know, you are abadass at making money, you're a
badass at whatever.
They're really good books.
And if you listen to the.
Listen to her on Audible, she,she narrates them and she's funny
too, so.
Highly recommend.
(06:07):
Pretty lightweight, but still inspirational.
But she has a phrase.
She says that everything's figureoutable.
And again, the prior life experience.
We had to figure out how tomake TV shows in my prior career,
how to, how to deliver day anddate international Disney releases
across the, across the world.
Everything's figureoutable.
And as one tries on a lot ofthings and whether it's college,
(06:30):
whether it's summer jobs, webuild confidence so we realize that
whatever problems come ourway, we can figure it out.
So I was able to bring thatinto this new career and learn how
to be a note investor.
I knew nothing about all thesethings before.
Yeah.
I don't know any school thatactually teaches about note investing.
Correct.
It's a school of hard knocks.
(06:50):
So.
Correct.
But as we talk more aboutinvesting, everyone has a core investment
philosophy.
If you could describe yoursand one or a few sentences, what
would yours be?
And where did you, you know,where did it come from?
It came from and it wasdeveloped over several reps.
(07:11):
In the beginning, I, and Ithink some other investors are just
so excited to have access to a deal.
Oh, I'm going to do that deal, man.
That's mine.
I'm grabbing it.
And I did okay.
But with reps, I developedmore discipline.
And it sounds simple to say,but until I bump into a few walls
(07:33):
on my path through thisjourney of learning and growing as,
as an investor, the disciplinecomes not just from saying no to
certain deals, but being moreselective about the deals I choose
because they lead to the endresult that I want.
You know, there's a, there'snow a business plan in place for
me where there wasn't.
When I was starting out, thebusiness plan was, oh, go make a
(07:54):
lot of money and notes.
But now there's a moredefinitive business plan, and I choose
assets and deals and, andpaths based on that.
Yeah.
And it's interesting because Iwas having a call earlier today with
an individual who has been,you know, a little frustrated with
where they're, where they've,how far they've gotten in the space
and asked me for, you know,their, my honest opinion, which I'm
(08:18):
never shy to give my honestopinion on things.
And the two things that thisindividual I gave for some constructive
feedback was they're chasingtoo much in regards to.
They're spending too much timefocused on, oh, I need to find more
(08:38):
sellers, I need to find more sellers.
And what I told them is, youknow, buy a deal from somebody, then
just focus on that one personin regards to if they bring you a
deal after you.
Somebody brings you a deal andyou prove that you can go through
the process and close in timein a timely fashion and make that
process easy for them, youwon't believe how many more deals
(09:01):
can come your way.
And when I look at a lot ofdeal flow that we've gotten, it's
really based on thoserelationships I've built over the
years.
And not a lot of them are fromnewer people, but it's people who
have said, oh, I've closedwith Chris, let me see if he's interested
in this deal, because I know,you know, what he likes and this
is his type of deal.
(09:22):
And, you know, he does what hesays he's typically going to do.
So, you know, that's one thingthat I think, you know, goes to what
you said about that, you know,that discipline.
Yeah, absolutely.
And then delivering.
This is what I said I'm goingto do and I'm going to do it.
Yep.
You know, and this mightactually, you know, the prior question
might, you know, be similar toresponse to this one.
(09:43):
But what's one principle youlive by in business that kind of
guides how you treat vendors,investors, borrowers, partners, just
everyone you work with in this space.
So that.
Yeah, and it is very much connected.
But the word is.
The word is transparency.
Things don't always.
I picked this up in myprevious life working in film and
(10:04):
television production.
Every day is a controlledchaos, I promise you.
Every day we have a plan andevery day things go a little bit
off plan.
We have to pivot and we haveto figure out how to still make our
day or our budget or ourdelivery date or whatever the case
may be.
And investing in business ingeneral is the same.
(10:25):
And if you're transparent withyour partners, whether they be your
sellers, your investors, yourvendors, I find that I move to the
top of the list when there's.
When there's anotheropportunity with those people or
they were.
They're recommending me to thenext person I'm going to do business
with.
We just had a situation wherewe're doing due diligence on an asset
(10:47):
and seller had a valuation onthis asset property of now it was
about $900,000 valuation.
And we are still in theprocess of waiting on title and going
through everything.
And our BPO came back and itcame back like in the low sevens,
so it was about $200,000 off.
(11:09):
And, you know, we were very transparent.
We reached back, there's abroker involved in the process as
well.
And we sent the BPO to theborrower, to the broker and, and
basically said, hey, look,here's the valuation that we're getting,
is there?
And instead of just saying,oh, we're, you know, we got to fade,
we got to do this becausehere's our valuation.
(11:30):
We play it of.
Is there another valuationthat they have that, you know, they
got from somebody that showstheir value?
So then we can like kind ofreview and figure out, okay, who's
right and who's wrong.
Because I know if we're atseven in there at nine, there's no
agreement that's going to comein place because they're not going
(11:50):
to accept the fade that we'dbe looking to in that price range.
So trying to figure out.
And they actually were tryingto get interior access to the property
and do a few things whichunfortunately they haven't been able
to or were able to.
So for the time, we basicallyare just like, okay, we'll pause
and just pass on it.
But if it comes back around,hey, we're interested in taking a
look.
But our numbers, and we lookedat it, seem to be more in line compared
(12:16):
to the numbers that they had.
But it's again, part of thattransparency and, you know, letting
people know.
And some people will call thatbad news or, you know, some type
of conflict, because I get thesense people try to avoid conflict,
which only leads to greaterconflict down the line because eventually
(12:38):
it's going to pop.
Would you agree?
I would agree.
And I'm going to go a littlebit deep here for a second.
I always say thatentrepreneurship is personal growth,
and I hate delivering bad newsbecause I do not like conflict.
And you can ask me about myrelationship with my mother if you
want to go deeper on that.
I'm telling youentrepreneurship is personal growth.
(12:59):
And I would not have achievedthe level of success I have now.
And I won't be able tocontinue growing unless I continue
to kind of look at the thingsthat built me and who I am.
Yeah.
And, you know, that's a great.
I never thought about that,about the personal growth and why
look at it for the successesthat I've had.
I'm from New Englandoriginally, so, you know, and Worked
(13:22):
in, you know, constructionmanagement with unions and very conflict
oriented business.
So when I came into this spaceI was probably a little rough around
the edges and you know,probably a little bit too conflict
oriented in creating conflictversus solving problems which I know
probably rubbed people thewrong way actually.
I know it did.
And now that I look back, I'ma much calmer, tamer version of myself.
(13:45):
And it's because of growth andmaturity really is what, you know,
you look at it and even beingI'm turning 50 this year, you know,
you can always continue tomature, you know, as you, you grow
and just from your learning experiences.
So 100% yes.
Oh, you're speaking at PaperTrail Conference.
(14:06):
I like to ask people why wasit important for you to be a part
of, of this event outside ofjust knowing how awesome of an individual
I am?
Because I know that's probablyeveryone's number one answer, but
outside of that, you know, whyis it important to you?
Well, let me think if I canthink of a different answer because
that was definitely my answer.
(14:26):
No, you are an awesomeindividual, Chris.
And your style has alwaysattracted the people who want to
hear the truth about the business.
You don't.
You said it out loud earlierand everybody who's follows, follows
you knows this.
You really don't hold muchback and that's not true of everybody
(14:46):
in our industry.
Sometimes just the good is shared.
And so for me, first of all,thank you for having these, these
individual tracks.
I'm really excited thatthere's a seller finance track because
that's the space I'm in.
But I'm also going to belistening to private lending because
I am like ignorant on that.
(15:06):
I'm really excited to go learnabout that.
So that's going to be reallyfun for me.
But I'm gonna, the, the topicI'm gonna be talking about has to
do with talking to sellers andyou were talking about your process
and brokers and fading bidsand I'm dealing with, you know, sweet,
sweet, you know, 65 year oldwomen in Florida, you know, and they
have one note to sell.
That's the only note they'veever created in their life.
(15:28):
My world is different, very different.
And I think that there are anumber of people who come into our
industry and they'reinterested in what I do, but they're
a little afraid to have thoseone on one conversations.
So that's what we're going tobe talking about.
Talking about the personalgrowth, honestly, getting the reps
in and some tricks andcoaching, frankly on how those conversations
(15:52):
can be a little bit easier to have.
So I'm excited to share that and.
With speaking on that, peoplelistening to this session, what's
one thing you hope that theycan learn or think differently or
get out of that conversation?
I'm different than some people who.
We'll call it sales training,although it's a little softer than
(16:17):
that.
I'm a little different thanpeople who come in with a script
or lines or badger the personbecause you created a note that's
terrible and obviously wecan't pay much for it.
I just have nice conversationswith people and I find not.
It's not for everybody.
(16:38):
I can't close every deal.
Maybe the more aggressiveperson is going to close that deal
that I'm not going to close.
But the people I do work with,it's a nice experience and it's not,
believe it or not, I'm anintrovert and I found that my way
in was just to haveconversations with people.
So that's, that's, that'swhere I'm going to be headed with
(16:59):
it.
Okay.
Interesting.
Because you're.
The way you approach these borrowers.
Sellers.
These are the sellers.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
The sellers in regards to, youknow, having that conversation is
interesting because like yousaid, most people think about, again,
(17:21):
on the real estate side tryingto either whether you're acquiring
the note or, you know, peoplecalling about properties more look
at as a transactional processwhere it sounds like you're more
relation again back to thatrelationship based.
So that's, that's a reallyinteresting philosophy and I know
you've been very successful atit, so that must be something that's
been working for you.
(17:43):
It works.
It's the only way to work withsomeone who you can imagine somebody
calling and probably go toofar into this and I'll try to keep
it brief, but calling.
And again, they've only evercreated one seller finance note in
their life and they've neversold one.
And it deals with money andit's a lot of money.
And they're talking some per.
They're calling some personthey found on the Internet who they've
(18:03):
never spoken with before.
And if I can spend some timejust making them comfortable.
My favorite deals I close arethe ones they said, well, we got
a quote from someone and itwas for a little bit more, but we
like you better.
Yeah.
So no, I love those.
Oh, yeah.
Well, yeah, those, those areawesome because it just shows that,
you know, it's goes back tothat relationship.
(18:24):
And they again felt like theybuilt that relationship with you.
Trust.
No like and trust, you know,that's exactly.
But yeah.
So I know you've worked with alot of different type of people and
investors in the space.
In your opinion, what makessomebody better than somebody?
And again, I don't like usingthe term better, but if you kind
(18:46):
of, you know, put the MichaelJordan on the, you know, mountain
of investors, what's a traitthat somebody has, in your opinion
that makes them excel.
For investors?
Yeah, well, since youmentioned Michael Jordan, I find
that most of the deals I doare layups.
(19:07):
And then every now and thenI'm at the three point line and I've
got a great shot and I go forit or I use the baseball analogy
a lot.
We all go for singles and doubles.
A lot of people use that.
And every now and then, evenwhen I don't expect it, that thing
just went out of the park thatfelt good.
And then the next one thatlooks just like that deal that I
think is going to go out ofthe park too.
I'm lucky to get on base.
(19:29):
It's just how it is.
So patience.
Patience, yeah.
It's one thing that I find alot of people getting started don't
have and I don't know if it'sbecause they've seen somebody who's
pushing a certain mantra inthe space of it's a get rich quick
scheme.
(19:50):
But I always tell people firstquestion I ask them when they say,
hey, I want to get involved innote investing, I tell them, I'm
like, you realize this is along play.
This isn't a get rich quick.
This isn't like buying a quickmultifamily building that you think
you can rehab and add value,add and flip it in a year and make
all this money or go build something.
(20:10):
It is slow and steady wins arace where like you mentioned, and
we use this analogy a lot, wewant to hit the singles and doubles.
We don't want to be thestrikeout hitter who hits a home
run now and then.
We are the Tony Gwyns of thespace where we just want to on base
and hit those singles and doubles.
Jay Redding spoke to the Noteinvesting group that I helped to
(20:32):
run last night and he talksabout his 20 years as an investor.
He was doing flips.
He's done some wholesale deals.
He's buy and hold, obviously notes.
And there's a reason he's beenat it for 20 years.
But I think what people don'trealize is a 20 years actually goes
really quick, but when youstart stacking notes on top of notes,
(20:55):
it is, it makes a difference.
It really does.
So.
Yeah, then the early payoffsstart coming in.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, there's some, there'ssome great potential there.
So we kind of talked about itnot being a get rich quick business.
Outside of that, what are somemistakes you often see newer investors
make and you try to help them avoid?
(21:18):
There's when, when I'm hungryin real life, I tend to gravitate
towards bad food decisions.
Yeah.
And when investors are hungryin real life, they tend to gravitate
towards bad investment decisions.
We talked about patience earlier.
(21:38):
So it's, it's the same topic.
It's, it's.
You've, you've got to.
One Tracy Z.
Who obviously is part of, ofthe conference, always talks about
you have to kiss a lot of frogs.
Sometimes you just have tokiss a lot of FR to find the ones
that are the right ones.
I love that analogy about thefood because last night I was starving
(21:59):
and the first thing I wentwas, I'm like, I'm gonna go have
a few Doritos.
And was probably the worstthing that I could eat.
But they are really good andwith the MSG you can't just have
one.
But that is so true because Iknow of investors who like, you know,
get a payoff on a loan and allof a sudden it's like, okay, I gotta
go buy something and they justwanna get that money out the door
(22:19):
as fast as possible.
Or, or they just startedraising money and they got money
from an investor and it'slike, oh, now I'm just going to go,
you know, it's like I can justgo buy whatever I want.
And it should be the opposite.
You should actually even takemore time and due diligence, make
sure you're buying the right assets.
Not something that is going toend up being a nightmare.
(22:41):
And not only that, but staywithin your lane.
And what I mean by that is Isee a lot of people chasing the shiny
object of one day they're anode investor, next day they're investing
in crypto, next day they'reinvesting in oil and gas.
Next day they want to go startmultifamily, next day they want to
do short term rentals.
(23:01):
And you know, it's likethey're chasing whatever they see
on the news, which you know is not.
Each one of those assetclasses I just mentioned is bad.
I'm not knocking those, butjust you have to have focused and
pick Something you'll be good at.
And I go by the philosophy,I'd rather be great at one thing
than an average Joe in 50.
(23:22):
And that's just my fat that's made.
All the difference in my career.
I think, you know, I startedby not performing seconds because
there were more of them and Ifound it interesting and then I changed
lanes.
But every now and then one ofthose comes across my desk and I'm
like, you know, and I don't do it.
I don't do it because it takesmy focus away from what I'm doing.
(23:43):
I should be focusing on it.
It's funny because we hadbought probably a year and a half
ago a pool of loans and therewas like 10 seconds or 15 seconds
in that pool that were non performing.
And the seller, literallyright before this call, sent me an
email, is like, oh, we've gotthese three pools of seconds that
we'd really like you to bid on.
(24:03):
And he knows that I don't like seconds.
It's almost like, you know,going to somebody basically.
Like, I quit drinking a fewyears ago and I have an occasional
drink, but you, it's almostlike coming to me, it's like, hey,
you want to go for a beer?
It's like, well, you know, Idon't do that.
But with these seconds, it'ssame thing.
It's like sometimes it'stempting because, oh, it's a hundred
(24:24):
of them that you can pick upat a good price.
But in the same token, it'slike, nope, I'm good.
You know, it's that disciplineto say no.
It pulls energy away fromother places.
Exactly.
Yep.
And reality is we all like tothink we have unlimited energy.
The reality is we don't.
Okay, well, let's kind of roll into.
(24:44):
As we wrap up a little bit ofa lightning round that I like to
talk about, and first questionthat I like to pose to people is
if you could take one word todescribe the current market, how
would you describe it?
Exciting.
Ooh, I like that.
(25:05):
I'm going to have to ask youto dive a little bit deeper on that
one because that was one Iwasn't expecting.
So remember, remember what I do?
I work in a, in a space wherehigher interest rates and uncertainty
can increase the, theinventory of seller finance notes.
And we've seen that over thelast several years.
(25:26):
So to me, that's exciting,that's opportunity.
And also uncertainty is justhead on a swivel.
Exciting.
So it's, it can play both ways.
Yeah.
And just love to get people'sopinions on.
And again, neither one of usare providing advice or we're not,
you know, economists or so forth.
But curious where you thinkinterest rates will be heading over
(25:46):
the next six to 12 months.
Was in the car earlier todayand was listening to someone and
I was tending to agree that in12 to 16 months we'll start to see
a drop in interest rates.
And I'm more comfortable predict.
I can't tell you if that's intwo months or that's in 14 months
(26:06):
but we'll see a drop.
Not significant, but we'll see enough.
Let's hope for the commercialreal estate space because that makes
a big difference.
Somebody posted on LinkedInrecently, I know they were in lightning
round but you understand a onepoint drop in interest rates for
a large scale commercialdeveloper is the difference between
a private jet or not.
(26:27):
Yeah, it's huge, Big, big difference.
And I'll just say I kind ofagree with you where I think we're
kind of going to be floatingin this purgatory of rates are going
to, you know, go up a littlebit, go down a little bit and slowly
start making their way down.
I mean someone asked the otherday when we think rates will be back
in like at 3% and I'm like.
Never, you know, unless we'vereally messed up again.
(26:50):
Well and that's what I mentioned.
I'm like unless the economy isreally in trouble and then your property
is probably worth about halfthe price because the economy would
have to really tank and theperson's like well if they're at
3%, my house worth three timesthe amount.
And I'm like, you think thatbut pro not if interest rates get
that low, that's probably not okay.
We are in lightning round andI'm the worst offender of this because
(27:11):
I can talk a dog off a meat wagon.
What's one thing you'vechanged your mind about in the last
year?
Funny anecdote.
I, I, I was this links to theearlier conversation headed in the
(27:31):
direction of pursuing a buyand hold rental portfolio.
Not one in particular.
Building one.
Yep.
And it sounded like a greatidea until I woke up one day and
said I'm getting pretty darngood at this note thing and I'm just
going to stay focused on that.
And that was a big point of growth.
This connects to a lot in the conversation.
Growth, understanding what I'mmy business focus needs to be and
(27:53):
where my energy needs to be.
So that was big.
That was earlier this year.
That is big because you kindof get sometimes you see like, oh,
there's opportunity or this orthat, and it's like again, that shiny
object of do I chase it or so great.
And if you know one person,you know, thank for where you are
today, your success, who wouldyou want to thank?
(28:13):
Huh?
I posted on LinkedIn recentlyit was a Mother's Day post, but my
mom followed this, My motherfollowed this career of.
She worked in, she was anewspaper reporter, then she worked
in politics and then sheworked in the corporate world and
then she went off and startedher own business.
And my production world was alot probably like her time in politics.
(28:34):
And then I worked for a corporation.
I didn't care for thecorporate part just like she didn't.
And then she became an entrepreneur.
I don't think I would have hadthe guts or the confidence to become
an entrepreneur had she notdone it first.
So I thank her for that.
Awesome.
Most people have a lot ofthankful things, of course, from
their parents or their motherand yours, the entrepreneur side.
(28:57):
That's awesome.
So it's great as we wrap up.
Marco, any final thoughtsbefore we wrap up this episode of
the Paper Trail podcast?
This is going to be, this isnot a paid sponsorship.
This is me a great conference.
I can, I can, I have reallygood feelings about the conference.
I already know of severalpeople I'm really excited to connect
(29:19):
with there and, and I'mexcited to connect with people I
haven't met yet with there.
And even like you mentionedearlier, and that was kind of, you
know, what we were talkingabout is, you know, you've got seller
financing down, you know, theplayers in the space and you know,
you're one of the leaders inthat space and you know, we, we bring
in this private lendingsegment which you know, has some,
(29:41):
you know, I'll say somesimilar characteristics to seller
financing in the sense of, youknow, sometimes you might originate
paper, buy it, but you knowlittle but it's a completely different
animal.
But there's people in thatspace that I know having conversations
because we weren't in thatspace and we've done a little bit
in that space.
There's just so much you learnthat not only from that side, but
(30:01):
you can apply to your currentbusiness as well.
And that's where just gettingpeople with similar mindsets but
in different asset class ofnode investing was something that
we really wanted to accomplish.
So pretty cool.
It's a good idea.
Well, thanks for coming ontoday, Marco.
For those listening, make sureto leave us a like share and for
(30:22):
more information on the conference.
It's September 18th to 20th inChandler, Arizona, and you can go
to papertrailconference.comthank you all.
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