August 20, 2025 • 40 mins
In this episode of the Paper Trail Podcast, part of our Know Your Speaker Series leading up to the Paper Trail Note Conference (PTNC), Chris sits down with Kris Fleming — business strategist, financial expert, real estate investor, and founder of The Genius Network.
Kris shares her incredible journey from growing up in poverty to becoming a successful entrepreneur, investor, and coach for women building scalable businesses. With deep experience in banking, commercial and private lending, and real estate, Kris brings a unique blend of empathy, strategy, and financial intelligence to every deal.
They discuss creative financing, how to assess borrowers beyond the numbers, and why personal responsibility and kindness are core to her investing approach. Kris also offers a preview of her upcoming talk at The Paper Trail Note Conference, happening September 18–20 in Chandler, Arizona, an event focused on real-world expertise, actionable learning, and community connection.
🎟️ Register for the Paper Trail Note Conference: https://papertrailconference.com/registration/
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Episode Transcript
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(00:45):
On this episode of the PaperTrail Podcast, I had the privilege
to interview Chris Fleming.
She is a business strategist,financial expert and certified small
business coach specializing inhelping women entrepreneurs build
profitable, scalable businesses.
We talk about how she is goingto speak at the Paper Trail Conference
(01:09):
and some insight on what she'sgoing to talk about.
She she's also the founder ofthe Genius Network where she provides
high impact coaching designedto help clients unlock their zone
of genius and turn theirexpertise into wealth.
Kris has a background inbanking, commercial lending, private
lending, real estate investing.
Somebody I loved talking with.
(01:31):
It was a great episode.
I learned a lot from thisepisode and I don't want to give
out too much informationbecause I want you to take the time
to listen to it and then comejoin us September 18th to the 20th
in Chandler, Arizona at thepaper Trail Conference.
Hope you enjoy this episode.
(01:53):
Hey Chris, how are you doing today?
I'm great.
How are you, Chris?
I am great.
It's easy to speak with Chrisand remember names because that's
something that I am awful at.
I think we'll get this one.
Yeah, I agree.
And we were just talkingbefore hit the record button in regards
to know passion and love forwhat you do.
(02:15):
And we're actually recordingthis on a.
Holiday, but we're bothworking today because.
That'S what it boils down to.
We love what we do and we lovealso talking about what we do as
well.
So let's kind of, you know,dive right into it, Chris, and have
you start with your story.
Yeah, gosh, my story is so convoluted.
(02:38):
I'm going to try to thinkabout how to give you the most direct
version of it.
I will tell you that I grew upin extreme poverty.
I was an only child of asingle mom.
I never knew my father and mymom was mostly working all the time,
two, three jobs.
We spent a lot of timehomeless, living in cars and shelters.
(03:02):
But I understood from a veryyoung age that my mom paid rent.
I understood that and Iunderstood that when she didn't pay
rent, we did not get to live there.
And so as an only child whospent a lot of time alone, I would
play Monopoly games by myself,playing all the pieces.
(03:25):
And it, the games would go onfor days and days because every piece
has the same skill set.
Right.
So yeah, that was really how Igot started in my interest in real
estate was good old Monopoly.
Monopoly.
I bought my first house abouteight months after my 18th birthday.
(03:47):
Oh, wow.
Because I couldn't believethat I had moved From California
to Tennessee.
And I couldn't believe thatyou could get the whole property
for that price.
I was like, the house and theland and everything, it all comes
together.
So that became my firstcreative finance deal when I sold
it a few years later on alease option.
(04:11):
Wow, that's an amazing storyto share.
Just the fact of, I mean, thestruggles and stress and everything
that you had to go throughthen to turn around and you know,
basically before the age of20, buy a property which, you know,
I was in college at the age of20 and I had the maturity level of
(04:31):
probably a four year old.
So even if I had the money.
To buy a house, it would have.
Probably been a complete andutter disaster.
Because, you know, owning realestate is not something for the faint
of heart.
I think a lot of people havethis envy of wanting to own it but
not really knowing what theywant to get themselves into.
Would you agree?
(04:52):
I absolutely would.
And I will say too that one ofthe things that I learned with my
interesting upbringing was howto not do a lot of things.
And I knew that I wanted aplace that was mine and.
I.
Nobody was going to tell me to leave.
(05:12):
Yeah.
I typically roll into askingwhat's something about your journey
a lot of people don't know,but probably should.
I mean, you just shared a lotof deep insight about, you know,
everything is there, you know,that answered that question.
But I'll just ask it ifthere's another area of within your
investments over your careerthat is also something that is unique.
(05:36):
Yeah.
I will say that statisticallythere's no way that I should be a
success again.
Grew up, only child, singlemom, never knew my father.
Wound up in foster care, lotsof homelessness, twice divorced.
I was a single mom myself.
(05:57):
And all the statistics say Ishould not be where I am.
And I state that not todemonstrate my own power, but to
share that power with all ofthe people who are feeling the same
way that I.
My history says I'm nevergoing to make it.
(06:18):
And I want them to know.
Your history doesn't have todefine your future.
No.
And if I recall, the stats arepretty overwhelming in regards to
people again taking a turnthat could go into whether alcohol,
drugs or something else thatcan lead you down that path.
It's amazing story that, youknow, the more you share about everything
(06:41):
you've gone through thatyou're right that you have had success
coming up through youdefinitely didn't have a silver spoon,
you know, or even a spoonreally given to you.
But I think for People listening.
It shows that, you know, itdoesn't matter where you've been,
(07:02):
it's always about lookingforward and improving day by day.
And that's something that Ialways recommend for people.
Just, you know, one person,you know, if you can improve, you
know, 1% a month or 1% a year,you know, it's incredible the achievement
you could gain.
So, yes.
In regards to real estate.
(07:22):
You know, everyone has a coreinvestment philosophy or strategy.
How would you describe yours?
Oh, what a good question.
I am sort of, I guess,addicted to problem solving.
So I really like the dealsthat, you know, everybody wants the
(07:43):
easy deals, the ones that arefairly obvious.
I really enjoy the deals thatare far less obvious.
And you really get into somecreative problem solving.
One, there's less competitionfor them and two, there are a lot
more fun and three, they'regenerally a lot more lucrative as
(08:03):
well.
But also I love to work withother people.
So a frequent strategy of mineis to somebody else finds the deal,
I figure out how to put ittogether and I do a joint venture
where I do, I own 19% of theentity that owns the real estate
(08:26):
so that I don't have to be aguarantor on the loan, but I'm bringing
the capital to make the dealdone and I get to sit back and I
don't have to do a lot ofheavy lifting.
I don't have to find thetenants, I don't have to manage the
contractors.
That is not my skill set.
(08:47):
My skill set is solving theproblem and I like the ones that
are, that are that otherpeople don't want.
Have you ever dipped your toesin non performing loans?
I have a stack actually overhere on the corner of my, the desk
of my assistant.
There are eight files therethat I purchased of non performing
(09:09):
notes that I'm working through.
You want to talk problem solving?
That's what I love to do andthat's what we do.
And that's just, you know,I've done.
I spent 20 years in realestate and construction or 25 and
like building cool buildingsand all this stuff.
And now always problem solvingand notes is, you know, all aspects
of real estate.
(09:30):
What I find is the people whoare most successful in real estate
are the ones who can solve the problems.
Because it's not a nicestraight flat road like a Runway.
It's more like driving throughthe mountains is what I.
Yes.
So yes, for sure.
Sometimes it's a little bit ofa roller coaster.
Oh, yes, to say the least.
So you've talked a little Bitabout, you know, kind of, you know,
(09:53):
your philosophy internally.
You know, there's.
Everyone goes by some principle.
You know, whether it'sintegrity, honesty, you know, how,
you know, what do you.
What's your kind of, you know,one of your or several core principles
that guide you on how youtreat, you know, the people you work
with.
(10:13):
You know, personalresponsibility and kindness are definitely
my two top core values.
I believe that as long as weare placing blame on others and not
recognizing whateverresponsibility we bear in a situation,
(10:34):
and, you know, sometimes it'sjust 5% responsibility.
It's not 100% responsibility.
But there are no mistakes.
There are only learningopportunities unless you choose not
to learn something.
So when I'm talking topotential borrowers, for example,
I want to hear about theirdeals that went sideways and what
(10:55):
they tell me about why I wantto hear, are they playing the blame
game?
Is it always somebody else's fault?
That's really important to me.
But also just being kinderthan necessary.
I think that my upbringingreally helped me recognize that we
don't know what the personsitting next to us is going through.
(11:17):
You know, I tried to hide itfrom my classmates as much as possible,
and, you know, I didn't.
I didn't want people to judgeme by my situation.
I think that's true of all of us.
So considering that we don'tknow what the person sitting next
to us is going through, alittle bit of kindness can long way.
(11:41):
And look, if you treat thewrong person with kindness, that's
a reflection of them, not areflection of you.
Yeah, I have definitely hadsome instances where I put my foot
in my mouth where I've done orsaid something and did not understand
what somebody either recentlywent through or had to go through.
And it literally is like theworst feeling.
(12:02):
I just felt like, excusephrase, an asshole.
We'll have to blur that blobthat out.
But that's really.
And that's what I was in that instance.
But also based on that, I'mguessing you really will never have
a career in politics if youtalk about kindness and not blaming
others, because, you know,that's all politicians do.
So I'm guessing we won't see you.
Running for any seats in the future.
(12:25):
If it seems unfruitful.
Yeah, it would seem unfruitful.
I actually, as a child, one ofthe things that I wanted to be when
I grew up was a senator.
I thought that sounded reallyinteresting and to have the opportunity
to be so.
So such a strong participantin what I believed would be making
(12:46):
the world a better place.
Until I realized,unfortunately, I'm probably too honest
to ever get elected or if Iever got elected, to stay elected,
I, I, I don't think I'd getmuch done because I just tell the
truth about it.
I was the same because I havetwo relatives who were senators up
in Rhode island in the pastand one of them I think just finished
(13:10):
and is not running anymore.
But it's one of those thingswhere, you know, man, you just have
to be cut a different way.
And I like to say I'm thickskinned, but I just, I don't have
the patience for BS and man, Idon't know how I would do it.
But.
So well, we, you know, you arespeaking at the Paper Trail conference
(13:33):
coming up in September.
It's September 18th to 20th inChandler, Arizona.
So make sure to get yourtickets, people.
You know, why is it importantfor you to be part of this event?
I will do anything that BethJohnson asked me to do.
If she, she asked me to ride agiraffe all the way to Arizona to
be there, I'd probably gohunting for, go looking for a giraffe.
(13:56):
But I think that some of themost valuable experiences we can
have are sharing insights andwisdom with each other.
So I never want to be agatekeeper of insight or wisdom.
Look, one of the best thingswe can do is not make all of our
own mistakes.
We can learn from the mistakesof others.
(14:18):
So I, I think that that's,that's always important.
Yep.
And that's really one of thefocus when, you know, I started putting
this conference together was,you know, Beth.
I wanted to of course, breakit into different segments.
And when I thought of the, youknow, call it the private lending
side, you know, Beth andpeople affiliated with her were my
first choice because, youknow, a, she's always educating and
(14:40):
teaching people.
She's also doing and providingso much content out there compared
to, you know, I know there'sother conferences and other people
who, I'll use the term or moregurus where they're just selling
things and everything is justthe sales.
And every speaker that I'vespoken with on every podcast that
(15:02):
we're recording, it's reallythis, that is one of the core values
of everybody is providing asmuch content and education to people
as possible.
Nobody's expecting anything inreturn and it's just an event where
people can just collaborateand learn more about your everybody's
business.
Because every aspect of realestate, you can never know it all.
(15:25):
You can always Continue learning.
Absolutely.
And, you know, if you want togo far, go together.
Yep, exactly.
Oiling your entire session.
What's one of the things thatyou hope the attendees can, you know,
leave listening to you?
Either something they thinkdifferently about or just something
(15:46):
they pick up or learn.
What's the main message you'rehoping to get across?
You know, that's such a great question.
I think for me, I have such apassion for people feeling empowered
and living in just a mindsetof gratitude and not a mindset of
fear.
(16:07):
So I hope that people takeaway from not just my session, but
the entire experience.
Right.
That they feel better equippedto make excellent decisions and that
they sleep better at nightbecause they feel good about the
decisions that they're making.
(16:30):
You know, for, again, peoplelistening, again, that's something
that we pride and focus on, isreally getting the content out to
you to get educated and reallyjust walk away from feeling that
attending this conference hasmade a difference for you.
(16:51):
You know, next question thatpopped in my head is part of this
is that investor journey.
And you've spoken with, talkedwith, worked with lots of different
types of investors.
In your opinion, what makessomebody use the term a great investor
(17:13):
or the types of people you see succeed?
What's a trait that you seefor people that feel they just get
it?
I think people who are reallygood listeners, I think it's so important
to.
(17:33):
Obviously you want to evaluatethe documents and the paperwork and
the overall deal.
I personally, you know, I'mnot doing this at a grand scale like,
you know, Flynn FamilyLending, for example, is doing.
And so I'm still talking toeach borrower in, you know, live,
(17:56):
whether it's virtual or phonecall or whatever, I'm still talking
to them.
I'm sure that's partly becausethe deals that I we do are very weird.
And so I'm sort of the lenderof last resort, but listening for
the things that people do notsay when they're speaking, listening
(18:18):
to the.
The words that they choose touse and not necessarily making assumptions
about those, but asking questions.
You know, an example would be,I like to use this example quite
a bit, actually.
(18:38):
And that is around blameversus responsibility.
I've always told my kids thatthere are no mistakes, there are
only learning opportunities.
And that every mistake thatyou make, if you take the opportunity
to learn something from it,then you can still get value from
it.
So when I'm talking to aborrower and I'm asking about how
(19:00):
previous projects have goneand what went wrong and why did it
go wrong, so on and so forth,I want to hear what they learned
from it.
So if they're telling me,well, that one went wrong because
the contractor, this, that andthe other and this other one went
wrong because my businesspartner this, that and the other
and this one went wrongbecause the realtor, this, that and
(19:22):
the other I'm hearing Ihaven't learned anything because
nothing's ever been my responsibility.
So that's what I mean by Iwant to listen for what they're not
saying.
And I think that the peoplewho are most successful are the people
who can hear what they're not saying.
(19:43):
And kind of with that, okay, alot of times we talk to people who
do play that blame game.
And at the end of the day it'syour money, it's your responsibility
and it's going to be yourfault at the end of the day.
I have conversations with mywife all the time.
If there's a deal that goesbad, my wife doesn't want to hear,
(20:05):
well, the attorney or theservice or somebody screwed up, that's
great.
She's going to look at me andsay it's on you at the end of the
day.
And, and perfect example thatI'll share in our non performing
space was somebody posted onceon Facebook a comment about the storms
(20:26):
in North Carolina and thatthey were upset with their servicer
because a servicer hadn't goneout and checked to make sure the
property was still there orany of these things.
And I commented and repliedback to him.
I'm like, that's not yourservicer's job.
I said, servicer's job is toconfirm that the borrower is paying
(20:49):
on time and if they're not tomake up a pick up the phone and say
hey, your payments behind.
But it, you know, in this areaalso didn't have power or you couldn't
get there.
So I'm like, what did youexpect the service to do?
To fly out there?
I'm like, it's yourresponsibility if you want to know
what's going on with theproperty for you to send somebody
out there.
Now you can hire the servicerto do that.
(21:10):
But a lot of people think thatthey sit on the top of the mountain
on some throne and justwhatever pops in their head is everyone's
supposed to be able to be mindreaders and just do it and do it
for free?
Which we.
Yes, particularly the do itfor free part.
(21:30):
Right?
Yeah, that one is.
That's another something.
So as you know, as an educator.
And a trainer And a coach.
And as a consultant, I, youknow, I encounter a lot of folks
who, you know, I watch themask my friends, can I take you to
(21:51):
a cup of coffee and can I buyyou a cup of coffee and pick your
brain.
A cup of coffee is nice, butit's not a fair exchange for what
you're getting.
These are people who have donereally well.
They can buy their own cup ofcoffee, and it's taken them 30 years
to acquire this knowledge.
You cannot purchase it for acup of coffee.
(22:14):
Bring them a deal that theycan work with you and get paid on
it and teach you the ropeswhile you're learning.
So you can both get paid on it.
It's much more valuable.
Their 30 years of knowledge ismuch more valuable than a cup of
coffee.
Not that I don't want to be.
Taking a coffee, but don't tryto download my brain over a cup of
(22:36):
coffee.
It's not fair.
No, the one I enjoy too is.
And I offer my services topeople in regards to, hey, I'll answer
a quick question and so forth,and somebody might reach out.
And then all of a sudden I'llbe like, hey, look, bottom of my
meal, you can book a meetingwith me and, you know, schedule some
time.
Then the person replies back,the earliest you have is next Tuesday.
(23:00):
And I'm like, yeah, well, Ineed an answer before then.
I'm like, then find somebody else.
Because I'm doing this on myfree time, which, I'll be honest
with you, I charge about 2 to2:50 an hour is what I would charge
for this.
So be thankful that I'm givingyou 15, 20 minutes of free time or
(23:20):
free response.
And yeah, I get booked uppretty quickly because I run a company,
you know, go to any othercompany, you know, real estate company,
and call the CEO and sayrandomly, hey, can I, you know, just
pop by anytime and just stepin and answer questions and it'll
look like you, like you havesix heads.
Exactly.
(23:41):
I'm not complaining.
Again, I enjoy doing it, butpeople gotta be on a little bit more
thoughtful in regards to, youknow, can I do something for this
person?
Here's another story I'llshare was I had an individual reach
out to me and we run a fundand they were asking about some other
(24:05):
funds and they said, you know,we're looking to diversify.
We really like your fund.
He's like, is there anyoneelse you can, you know, refer?
And I'm like, well, I can tellyou who I've heard.
I haven't invested in theseother ones.
But here's some ones that aregood and here's some questions to
ask and you know, blah, blah, blah.
And probably spend 30 minuteswith this person.
Now, like a month and a halflater, the person reaches back out
(24:26):
to me and is like, hey, youknow, I just want to be upfront.
I'm not going to invest inyour fund, but can we set up another
call?
Because I'd really like topick your brain to learn more about
this other fund and some ofthe things I should, you know, you
know, other questions I shouldbe asking them.
And I didn't even reply to the email.
I just let it go because atfirst I'm like, wow, the set of cajones
(24:50):
on this person to, you know,really ask that.
But I'm like, you know, readthe room, buddy.
Like, seriously, you know,it's like, you know, yeah, yeah,
you want to take my wife on adate too?
I mean, like, you know, whatelse do you want from me?
So look, I'm happy to makethat appointment.
(25:11):
It's $295 an hour.
Credit card payment isaccepted in advance.
Exactly.
No refunds after with lessthan 24.
Hours notice of cancellation.
Yeah, but I'd probably dothat, get the 295 and then I'd probably
turn around and get suedbecause then they said I was providing
financial advice on somethingelse that didn't go their way because
(25:33):
they read the PPM wrong.
But yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
So I hear you.
That's.
That is a remarkable request.
Moving on.
You know, what's one mistakethat you do see newer investors make
(25:54):
that you try to help themavoid a lot besides just trying to
take advantage of somebody'stime and understanding what that
time is.
Yeah.
One thing that I see over andover again is what the doc when they're
underwriting.
(26:15):
Right.
So when we're talking aboutnote creators and their underwriting
and they're looking at adocument and they're saying, you
know, well, this is a bank statement.
And I'm like, no, it's not.
Is not a bank statement statement.
That is a screenshot of a bankbalance that has no date on it, no
account holder name on it.
(26:37):
Yes, it does have a bank nameon it and it has a balance.
But there's no way ofdetermining from the document that
you're looking at that it'stheir account or when that was taken.
So understanding that thedocument that they think they have
is not necessarily thedocument that they have.
(26:59):
I've seen that experience aswell with like wire transfer notifications.
Oh, well, they sent me thiswire transfer notification.
That's great.
It shows that it came fromthem, but it doesn't show where it
went.
They didn't send you acomplete document.
So, yeah, my encouragement,particularly for newer folks, is
(27:21):
to don't just look at thetitle of the document and assume
you have what you need,actually read it and make sure that
it has all the informationthat you're looking for.
Interesting thing I learnedseveral months ago because as we
all know, some fraud isincreasing and there's a company
(27:45):
out there that does AI and canread the bank statements and provide
reports for you, but also candetect fraud.
So ask the question, Mike.
Well, how can you detect fraud?
And they said, well, it'ssimple because every bank actually
has their own custom font andfont size.
Really?
(28:06):
If you try to falsify and likeput a PDF over like the date or something,
or change the numbers on.
I'll just use a Chase statement.
This system can pick it upbecause Chase has, you know, it might
look like Times New Roman, butthey have a custom font and custom
font size.
So there is no PDF editor outthere that has that font and font
(28:29):
size.
So it can easily be picked up.
Really?
I had never, I mean, I workedin banking for.
And finance for a decade and a half.
I never heard that before.
That's what they told me.
So I'm like, it makes sensethat happens.
Then the other one that we arestarting to use now, which again,
(28:50):
a service just for people listening.
So now through Plaid, Plaidhas systems where now you can verify,
like if they say you this, youcan verify that banking information,
which is, you know, cool tomake sure that again, there's not
a, you know, an error on a statement.
So.
But 100% right back to whatyou said is people have a checklist
(29:13):
and they get a document andjust check it and don't actually
look at the document whereit's like, yes, you still need to
look at the document.
So.
Right.
Yes.
I described it to someoneyesterday actually, as you know,
a checklist is great, but ifyou think about it as a recipe, let's
(29:35):
say you're baking a cake.
A checklist is a recipe tobake a cake.
But what you really need tounderstand in this business is the
chemistry of how the bakingsoda and the salt and the egg and
the flour combine when youapply heat to them for X amount of
time to get the cake at the end.
So a checklist is a greattool, but it's not.
(30:00):
It's not the full understanding.
Oh, I really like that.
That's a great analogy.
That's a great analogy.
Because also when you thinkabout it, when you're getting this
information.
And again, I'm just thinkingbaking, you know, a cake, if you
got a little too much of onething versus another, hey, you might
have to make adjustments onit, but you need to understand the
(30:22):
importance of every one ofthose ingredients and are able to
make those adjustments.
And that's where experience,of course, comes in.
Yes.
Yeah.
A lot of that is just repetition.
And, you know, if you're notsure, have financial friends that
you look over their shoulderand they look over yours.
I mean, I've got friends.
When something is unclear tome, I'll say, can you look at this
(30:43):
with me?
And vice versa.
The other thing, too, is ifyou're originating a loan, there's
underwriters out there andservices for anywhere from 500 to
750 bucks.
They'll underwrite the wholeloan for you and basically go through
and tell you, kind of give youan idea of what's coming up.
And they've got experiencebecause they've probably done thousands
(31:04):
of them.
And it's a cost that you cango back and charge the borrower.
And you can also learn fromtheir experience.
To get the experience, keepdoing it.
Yes.
I love the idea, actually, ofdoing your own underwriting and then
sending it to one of theseorganizations to see, you know, how
(31:25):
it matched up, how did you do?
And then that gives you theopportunities to learn and improve
100%.
That's, again, another greatlittle, you know, nugget right there
of ways to learn is do it yourself.
And then it's like, hand it tothe teacher.
Let the teacher go.
Do, you know, take the sametest and send it back to you, and
you can kind of see how you did.
(31:46):
So, yeah.
Not to mention, if you caught stuff.
That they didn't, you alsohave a measure of their.
The value that you'rereceiving for your.
Your investment.
Yeah, 100%.
Okay, let's enter thelightning round.
Okay, so, you know, kind ofreally great here.
Yep.
Really quick.
(32:07):
I say that, and then we justkeep talking.
But, you know, what's.
What's a word or phrase, howyou would describe the current real
estate market?
Weird.
It's weird.
I.
There are so many financialindicators that should historically
(32:31):
be indicating X, but insteadwe're getting Q.
And there are some artificialmanipulations going on that, you
know, lots of arguments couldbe made for or against or neutral
it's just weird.
Yeah.
Everybody logically, I thinkis like, okay, interest rates shot
(32:55):
up, home prices got their bump.
But eventually at some pointsomething's got to give, either the
rates or the pricing.
Everyone's kind of sittingthere with their popcorn waiting
to see and month and monthkeep going on and nothing's happening.
And it's like, okay, you know,and like, you know, and all of a
sudden if something pops onedirection the other, then everyone's
(33:18):
going to be like, I told you so.
Because it seems logical thatsalaries aren't jack getting jacked
up, but insurance, taxes andeverything else is.
So where's all this money come from?
That's really right.
Right.
I think too, with a lot ofthe, you know, the larger commercial
(33:39):
loans coming up on rateadjustments and balloons and lending
appetites of largeinstitutions have changed.
I've had, I've had at leastthree calls in the last seven days
of people who are looking fornew lending because they have a rate
adjustment or a balloon comingup with their bank and the bank has
(34:01):
told them, we're not going torenew your loan.
We don't have an appetite forthis collateral anymore.
So, yeah, it's, it's about to get.
I, I am concerned that it'sabout to get, unfortunately, interesting.
However, if you are not overleveraged and you're watching carefully
(34:23):
and you're checking the pulseand you trust but verify.
I'm sure we've all heard thewisdom that downturns are when fortunes
are made.
Now please let me say I am notpredicting a downturn.
I'm just saying if that's what happens.
Because historically theindicators on a historical basis
(34:50):
predict a downturn.
I don't know what's going tohappen because it's weird.
Yeah, it's.
Everyone's kind of justscratching their heads a little bit
and nobody knows, let's behonest, nobody knows.
What's one thing you'vechanged your mind about in the last
year?
You know, I used to say everydeal is a good deal if you can come
(35:15):
up with the right exitstrategy and the right, you know,
leverage structure, cashstructure, equity structure.
I used to really believe thatwith all of the levers that we can
move and manipulate, everydeal could be a good deal with the
right manipulation.
(35:35):
I don't believe that anymore.
I have heard increasinglyabout deals that, well, I mean, I
heard one, two weeks ago that,you know, the, the ARV of a property
was going to be, it was asmall single family home in Ohio
and the ARV was going to be 150.
(35:58):
But the repairs due tofoundation, structural issues and
everything else, the repairswere going to be like 170.
Well, there's no way that Ican think of to make that a good
deal.
I mean it's going to cost youmore to even just demolish it.
(36:18):
So.
Yeah, I just might, I don'tknow what you do with that.
So agree on that as well.
Last question.
One person you'd like to thankfor your success.
I don't know if I can tell youthis without crying.
(36:38):
There is a woman who is nolonger with us on this plane of existence.
She.
I was a broke single momfollowing my, my divorce against
my will.
(36:59):
And I had been a stay at home mom.
I had a three year old and afive year old and I found myself
single not by my desire.
And I was just trying to finda way to make life work with these,
these babies.
And a woman gave me a chanceand her name was Kathy Carter.
(37:25):
And she trusted me andbelieved in me enough to just give
me a shot.
And she changed my life forever.
I mean it was, it was a parttime bank teller job but it changed
my life forever and itlaunched me in a completely new trajectory.
(37:48):
And in fact that bank branchwas torn down a couple of years ago
and it's in another city.
My husband was kind enough toask one of his co workers, this is
a secret so don't tell anybody.
Chris snuck over to the siteand grabbed one of the bricks for
(38:10):
me of the, the bank where Istarted my financial services endeavors.
So I'm not going to get up andgrab it.
But yeah, I, I have a brickover here from the original bank
where I started and rest in peace.
Kathy Carter.
No, that's a heartwarmingstory as just your entire journey
(38:34):
has just, you know, has been,you know, incredible and defy, you
know, most people, you know,most people in this business look
at everything as numbers andstatistics and now you have defied
every odds that has come out there.
So it really boils down tojust the story you tell and just
(38:55):
your integrity, your honesty,the hard work and you know, never
giving up.
And it's something that peoplereally can emulate and look forward
to seeing that, you know, noteverybody is always dealt a great
hand and just you know, thingshappen in life and you know, some
(39:16):
people have, you know, thingsthat aren't so great that happen
but to be able to pick up thepieces really shows just the strong
will and character that you've possessed.
And now everything you do, youknow, with your businesses and stuff
is phenomenal.
So want to thank you forcoming on this episode of the Paper
Trail podcast and look forwardto seeing you in a few months at
(39:39):
the conference in Chandler, Arizona.
Well, thank you so much.
It's a genuine pleasure andI'm super excited.
So those listening, you cancheck out the show notes with information
if you'd like to to reach outto Chris.
And again, we look forward toseeing you in September.
Thank you all.
On this episode of the PaperTrail Podcast, I had the privilege
to interview Chris Fleming.
She is a business strategist,financial expert and certified small
business coach specializing inhelping women entrepreneurs build
profitable, scalable businesses.
We talk about how she is goingto speak at the Paper Trail Conference
(01:09):
and some insight on what she'sgoing to talk about.
She she's also the founder ofthe Genius Network where she provides
high impact coaching designedto help clients unlock their zone
of genius and turn theirexpertise into wealth.
Kris has a background inbanking, commercial lending, private
lending, real estate investing.
Somebody I loved talking with.
(01:31):
It was a great episode.
I learned a lot from thisepisode and I don't want to give
out too much informationbecause I want you to take the time
to listen to it and then comejoin us September 18th to the 20th
in Chandler, Arizona at thepaper Trail Conference.
Hope you enjoy this episode.
(01:53):
Hey Chris, how are you doing today?
I'm great.
How are you, Chris?
I am great.
It's easy to speak with Chrisand remember names because that's
something that I am awful at.
I think we'll get this one.
Yeah, I agree.
And we were just talkingbefore hit the record button in regards
to know passion and love forwhat you do.
(02:15):
And we're actually recordingthis on a.
Holiday, but we're bothworking today because.
That'S what it boils down to.
We love what we do and we lovealso talking about what we do as
well.
So let's kind of, you know,dive right into it, Chris, and have
you start with your story.
Yeah, gosh, my story is so convoluted.
(02:38):
I'm going to try to thinkabout how to give you the most direct
version of it.
I will tell you that I grew upin extreme poverty.
I was an only child of asingle mom.
I never knew my father and mymom was mostly working all the time,
two, three jobs.
We spent a lot of timehomeless, living in cars and shelters.
(03:02):
But I understood from a veryyoung age that my mom paid rent.
I understood that and Iunderstood that when she didn't pay
rent, we did not get to live there.
And so as an only child whospent a lot of time alone, I would
play Monopoly games by myself,playing all the pieces.
(03:25):
And it, the games would go onfor days and days because every piece
has the same skill set.
Right.
So yeah, that was really how Igot started in my interest in real
estate was good old Monopoly.
Monopoly.
I bought my first house abouteight months after my 18th birthday.
(03:47):
Oh, wow.
Because I couldn't believethat I had moved From California
to Tennessee.
And I couldn't believe thatyou could get the whole property
for that price.
I was like, the house and theland and everything, it all comes
together.
So that became my firstcreative finance deal when I sold
it a few years later on alease option.
(04:11):
Wow, that's an amazing storyto share.
Just the fact of, I mean, thestruggles and stress and everything
that you had to go throughthen to turn around and you know,
basically before the age of20, buy a property which, you know,
I was in college at the age of20 and I had the maturity level of
(04:31):
probably a four year old.
So even if I had the money.
To buy a house, it would have.
Probably been a complete andutter disaster.
Because, you know, owning realestate is not something for the faint
of heart.
I think a lot of people havethis envy of wanting to own it but
not really knowing what theywant to get themselves into.
Would you agree?
(04:52):
I absolutely would.
And I will say too that one ofthe things that I learned with my
interesting upbringing was howto not do a lot of things.
And I knew that I wanted aplace that was mine and.
I.
Nobody was going to tell me to leave.
(05:12):
Yeah.
I typically roll into askingwhat's something about your journey
a lot of people don't know,but probably should.
I mean, you just shared a lotof deep insight about, you know,
everything is there, you know,that answered that question.
But I'll just ask it ifthere's another area of within your
investments over your careerthat is also something that is unique.
(05:36):
Yeah.
I will say that statisticallythere's no way that I should be a
success again.
Grew up, only child, singlemom, never knew my father.
Wound up in foster care, lotsof homelessness, twice divorced.
I was a single mom myself.
(05:57):
And all the statistics say Ishould not be where I am.
And I state that not todemonstrate my own power, but to
share that power with all ofthe people who are feeling the same
way that I.
My history says I'm nevergoing to make it.
(06:18):
And I want them to know.
Your history doesn't have todefine your future.
No.
And if I recall, the stats arepretty overwhelming in regards to
people again taking a turnthat could go into whether alcohol,
drugs or something else thatcan lead you down that path.
It's amazing story that, youknow, the more you share about everything
(06:41):
you've gone through thatyou're right that you have had success
coming up through youdefinitely didn't have a silver spoon,
you know, or even a spoonreally given to you.
But I think for People listening.
It shows that, you know, itdoesn't matter where you've been,
(07:02):
it's always about lookingforward and improving day by day.
And that's something that Ialways recommend for people.
Just, you know, one person,you know, if you can improve, you
know, 1% a month or 1% a year,you know, it's incredible the achievement
you could gain.
So, yes.
In regards to real estate.
(07:22):
You know, everyone has a coreinvestment philosophy or strategy.
How would you describe yours?
Oh, what a good question.
I am sort of, I guess,addicted to problem solving.
So I really like the dealsthat, you know, everybody wants the
(07:43):
easy deals, the ones that arefairly obvious.
I really enjoy the deals thatare far less obvious.
And you really get into somecreative problem solving.
One, there's less competitionfor them and two, there are a lot
more fun and three, they'regenerally a lot more lucrative as
(08:03):
well.
But also I love to work withother people.
So a frequent strategy of mineis to somebody else finds the deal,
I figure out how to put ittogether and I do a joint venture
where I do, I own 19% of theentity that owns the real estate
(08:26):
so that I don't have to be aguarantor on the loan, but I'm bringing
the capital to make the dealdone and I get to sit back and I
don't have to do a lot ofheavy lifting.
I don't have to find thetenants, I don't have to manage the
contractors.
That is not my skill set.
(08:47):
My skill set is solving theproblem and I like the ones that
are, that are that otherpeople don't want.
Have you ever dipped your toesin non performing loans?
I have a stack actually overhere on the corner of my, the desk
of my assistant.
There are eight files therethat I purchased of non performing
(09:09):
notes that I'm working through.
You want to talk problem solving?
That's what I love to do andthat's what we do.
And that's just, you know,I've done.
I spent 20 years in realestate and construction or 25 and
like building cool buildingsand all this stuff.
And now always problem solvingand notes is, you know, all aspects
of real estate.
(09:30):
What I find is the people whoare most successful in real estate
are the ones who can solve the problems.
Because it's not a nicestraight flat road like a Runway.
It's more like driving throughthe mountains is what I.
Yes.
So yes, for sure.
Sometimes it's a little bit ofa roller coaster.
Oh, yes, to say the least.
So you've talked a little Bitabout, you know, kind of, you know,
(09:53):
your philosophy internally.
You know, there's.
Everyone goes by some principle.
You know, whether it'sintegrity, honesty, you know, how,
you know, what do you.
What's your kind of, you know,one of your or several core principles
that guide you on how youtreat, you know, the people you work
with.
(10:13):
You know, personalresponsibility and kindness are definitely
my two top core values.
I believe that as long as weare placing blame on others and not
recognizing whateverresponsibility we bear in a situation,
(10:34):
and, you know, sometimes it'sjust 5% responsibility.
It's not 100% responsibility.
But there are no mistakes.
There are only learningopportunities unless you choose not
to learn something.
So when I'm talking topotential borrowers, for example,
I want to hear about theirdeals that went sideways and what
(10:55):
they tell me about why I wantto hear, are they playing the blame
game?
Is it always somebody else's fault?
That's really important to me.
But also just being kinderthan necessary.
I think that my upbringingreally helped me recognize that we
don't know what the personsitting next to us is going through.
(11:17):
You know, I tried to hide itfrom my classmates as much as possible,
and, you know, I didn't.
I didn't want people to judgeme by my situation.
I think that's true of all of us.
So considering that we don'tknow what the person sitting next
to us is going through, alittle bit of kindness can long way.
(11:41):
And look, if you treat thewrong person with kindness, that's
a reflection of them, not areflection of you.
Yeah, I have definitely hadsome instances where I put my foot
in my mouth where I've done orsaid something and did not understand
what somebody either recentlywent through or had to go through.
And it literally is like theworst feeling.
(12:02):
I just felt like, excusephrase, an asshole.
We'll have to blur that blobthat out.
But that's really.
And that's what I was in that instance.
But also based on that, I'mguessing you really will never have
a career in politics if youtalk about kindness and not blaming
others, because, you know,that's all politicians do.
So I'm guessing we won't see you.
Running for any seats in the future.
(12:25):
If it seems unfruitful.
Yeah, it would seem unfruitful.
I actually, as a child, one ofthe things that I wanted to be when
I grew up was a senator.
I thought that sounded reallyinteresting and to have the opportunity
to be so.
So such a strong participantin what I believed would be making
(12:46):
the world a better place.
Until I realized,unfortunately, I'm probably too honest
to ever get elected or if Iever got elected, to stay elected,
I, I, I don't think I'd getmuch done because I just tell the
truth about it.
I was the same because I havetwo relatives who were senators up
in Rhode island in the pastand one of them I think just finished
(13:10):
and is not running anymore.
But it's one of those thingswhere, you know, man, you just have
to be cut a different way.
And I like to say I'm thickskinned, but I just, I don't have
the patience for BS and man, Idon't know how I would do it.
But.
So well, we, you know, you arespeaking at the Paper Trail conference
(13:33):
coming up in September.
It's September 18th to 20th inChandler, Arizona.
So make sure to get yourtickets, people.
You know, why is it importantfor you to be part of this event?
I will do anything that BethJohnson asked me to do.
If she, she asked me to ride agiraffe all the way to Arizona to
be there, I'd probably gohunting for, go looking for a giraffe.
(13:56):
But I think that some of themost valuable experiences we can
have are sharing insights andwisdom with each other.
So I never want to be agatekeeper of insight or wisdom.
Look, one of the best thingswe can do is not make all of our
own mistakes.
We can learn from the mistakesof others.
(14:18):
So I, I think that that's,that's always important.
Yep.
And that's really one of thefocus when, you know, I started putting
this conference together was,you know, Beth.
I wanted to of course, breakit into different segments.
And when I thought of the, youknow, call it the private lending
side, you know, Beth andpeople affiliated with her were my
first choice because, youknow, a, she's always educating and
(14:40):
teaching people.
She's also doing and providingso much content out there compared
to, you know, I know there'sother conferences and other people
who, I'll use the term or moregurus where they're just selling
things and everything is justthe sales.
And every speaker that I'vespoken with on every podcast that
(15:02):
we're recording, it's reallythis, that is one of the core values
of everybody is providing asmuch content and education to people
as possible.
Nobody's expecting anything inreturn and it's just an event where
people can just collaborateand learn more about your everybody's
business.
Because every aspect of realestate, you can never know it all.
(15:25):
You can always Continue learning.
Absolutely.
And, you know, if you want togo far, go together.
Yep, exactly.
Oiling your entire session.
What's one of the things thatyou hope the attendees can, you know,
leave listening to you?
Either something they thinkdifferently about or just something
(15:46):
they pick up or learn.
What's the main message you'rehoping to get across?
You know, that's such a great question.
I think for me, I have such apassion for people feeling empowered
and living in just a mindsetof gratitude and not a mindset of
fear.
(16:07):
So I hope that people takeaway from not just my session, but
the entire experience.
Right.
That they feel better equippedto make excellent decisions and that
they sleep better at nightbecause they feel good about the
decisions that they're making.
(16:30):
You know, for, again, peoplelistening, again, that's something
that we pride and focus on, isreally getting the content out to
you to get educated and reallyjust walk away from feeling that
attending this conference hasmade a difference for you.
(16:51):
You know, next question thatpopped in my head is part of this
is that investor journey.
And you've spoken with, talkedwith, worked with lots of different
types of investors.
In your opinion, what makessomebody use the term a great investor
(17:13):
or the types of people you see succeed?
What's a trait that you seefor people that feel they just get
it?
I think people who are reallygood listeners, I think it's so important
to.
(17:33):
Obviously you want to evaluatethe documents and the paperwork and
the overall deal.
I personally, you know, I'mnot doing this at a grand scale like,
you know, Flynn FamilyLending, for example, is doing.
And so I'm still talking toeach borrower in, you know, live,
(17:56):
whether it's virtual or phonecall or whatever, I'm still talking
to them.
I'm sure that's partly becausethe deals that I we do are very weird.
And so I'm sort of the lenderof last resort, but listening for
the things that people do notsay when they're speaking, listening
(18:18):
to the.
The words that they choose touse and not necessarily making assumptions
about those, but asking questions.
You know, an example would be,I like to use this example quite
a bit, actually.
(18:38):
And that is around blameversus responsibility.
I've always told my kids thatthere are no mistakes, there are
only learning opportunities.
And that every mistake thatyou make, if you take the opportunity
to learn something from it,then you can still get value from
it.
So when I'm talking to aborrower and I'm asking about how
(19:00):
previous projects have goneand what went wrong and why did it
go wrong, so on and so forth,I want to hear what they learned
from it.
So if they're telling me,well, that one went wrong because
the contractor, this, that andthe other and this other one went
wrong because my businesspartner this, that and the other
and this one went wrongbecause the realtor, this, that and
(19:22):
the other I'm hearing Ihaven't learned anything because
nothing's ever been my responsibility.
So that's what I mean by Iwant to listen for what they're not
saying.
And I think that the peoplewho are most successful are the people
who can hear what they're not saying.
(19:43):
And kind of with that, okay, alot of times we talk to people who
do play that blame game.
And at the end of the day it'syour money, it's your responsibility
and it's going to be yourfault at the end of the day.
I have conversations with mywife all the time.
If there's a deal that goesbad, my wife doesn't want to hear,
(20:05):
well, the attorney or theservice or somebody screwed up, that's
great.
She's going to look at me andsay it's on you at the end of the
day.
And, and perfect example thatI'll share in our non performing
space was somebody posted onceon Facebook a comment about the storms
(20:26):
in North Carolina and thatthey were upset with their servicer
because a servicer hadn't goneout and checked to make sure the
property was still there orany of these things.
And I commented and repliedback to him.
I'm like, that's not yourservicer's job.
I said, servicer's job is toconfirm that the borrower is paying
(20:49):
on time and if they're not tomake up a pick up the phone and say
hey, your payments behind.
But it, you know, in this areaalso didn't have power or you couldn't
get there.
So I'm like, what did youexpect the service to do?
To fly out there?
I'm like, it's yourresponsibility if you want to know
what's going on with theproperty for you to send somebody
out there.
Now you can hire the servicerto do that.
(21:10):
But a lot of people think thatthey sit on the top of the mountain
on some throne and justwhatever pops in their head is everyone's
supposed to be able to be mindreaders and just do it and do it
for free?
Which we.
Yes, particularly the do itfor free part.
(21:30):
Right?
Yeah, that one is.
That's another something.
So as you know, as an educator.
And a trainer And a coach.
And as a consultant, I, youknow, I encounter a lot of folks
who, you know, I watch themask my friends, can I take you to
(21:51):
a cup of coffee and can I buyyou a cup of coffee and pick your
brain.
A cup of coffee is nice, butit's not a fair exchange for what
you're getting.
These are people who have donereally well.
They can buy their own cup ofcoffee, and it's taken them 30 years
to acquire this knowledge.
You cannot purchase it for acup of coffee.
(22:14):
Bring them a deal that theycan work with you and get paid on
it and teach you the ropeswhile you're learning.
So you can both get paid on it.
It's much more valuable.
Their 30 years of knowledge ismuch more valuable than a cup of
coffee.
Not that I don't want to be.
Taking a coffee, but don't tryto download my brain over a cup of
(22:36):
coffee.
It's not fair.
No, the one I enjoy too is.
And I offer my services topeople in regards to, hey, I'll answer
a quick question and so forth,and somebody might reach out.
And then all of a sudden I'llbe like, hey, look, bottom of my
meal, you can book a meetingwith me and, you know, schedule some
time.
Then the person replies back,the earliest you have is next Tuesday.
(23:00):
And I'm like, yeah, well, Ineed an answer before then.
I'm like, then find somebody else.
Because I'm doing this on myfree time, which, I'll be honest
with you, I charge about 2 to2:50 an hour is what I would charge
for this.
So be thankful that I'm givingyou 15, 20 minutes of free time or
(23:20):
free response.
And yeah, I get booked uppretty quickly because I run a company,
you know, go to any othercompany, you know, real estate company,
and call the CEO and sayrandomly, hey, can I, you know, just
pop by anytime and just stepin and answer questions and it'll
look like you, like you havesix heads.
Exactly.
(23:41):
I'm not complaining.
Again, I enjoy doing it, butpeople gotta be on a little bit more
thoughtful in regards to, youknow, can I do something for this
person?
Here's another story I'llshare was I had an individual reach
out to me and we run a fundand they were asking about some other
(24:05):
funds and they said, you know,we're looking to diversify.
We really like your fund.
He's like, is there anyoneelse you can, you know, refer?
And I'm like, well, I can tellyou who I've heard.
I haven't invested in theseother ones.
But here's some ones that aregood and here's some questions to
ask and you know, blah, blah, blah.
And probably spend 30 minuteswith this person.
Now, like a month and a halflater, the person reaches back out
(24:26):
to me and is like, hey, youknow, I just want to be upfront.
I'm not going to invest inyour fund, but can we set up another
call?
Because I'd really like topick your brain to learn more about
this other fund and some ofthe things I should, you know, you
know, other questions I shouldbe asking them.
And I didn't even reply to the email.
I just let it go because atfirst I'm like, wow, the set of cajones
(24:50):
on this person to, you know,really ask that.
But I'm like, you know, readthe room, buddy.
Like, seriously, you know,it's like, you know, yeah, yeah,
you want to take my wife on adate too?
I mean, like, you know, whatelse do you want from me?
So look, I'm happy to makethat appointment.
(25:11):
It's $295 an hour.
Credit card payment isaccepted in advance.
Exactly.
No refunds after with lessthan 24.
Hours notice of cancellation.
Yeah, but I'd probably dothat, get the 295 and then I'd probably
turn around and get suedbecause then they said I was providing
financial advice on somethingelse that didn't go their way because
(25:33):
they read the PPM wrong.
But yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
So I hear you.
That's.
That is a remarkable request.
Moving on.
You know, what's one mistakethat you do see newer investors make
(25:54):
that you try to help themavoid a lot besides just trying to
take advantage of somebody'stime and understanding what that
time is.
Yeah.
One thing that I see over andover again is what the doc when they're
underwriting.
(26:15):
Right.
So when we're talking aboutnote creators and their underwriting
and they're looking at adocument and they're saying, you
know, well, this is a bank statement.
And I'm like, no, it's not.
Is not a bank statement statement.
That is a screenshot of a bankbalance that has no date on it, no
account holder name on it.
(26:37):
Yes, it does have a bank nameon it and it has a balance.
But there's no way ofdetermining from the document that
you're looking at that it'stheir account or when that was taken.
So understanding that thedocument that they think they have
is not necessarily thedocument that they have.
(26:59):
I've seen that experience aswell with like wire transfer notifications.
Oh, well, they sent me thiswire transfer notification.
That's great.
It shows that it came fromthem, but it doesn't show where it
went.
They didn't send you acomplete document.
So, yeah, my encouragement,particularly for newer folks, is
(27:21):
to don't just look at thetitle of the document and assume
you have what you need,actually read it and make sure that
it has all the informationthat you're looking for.
Interesting thing I learnedseveral months ago because as we
all know, some fraud isincreasing and there's a company
(27:45):
out there that does AI and canread the bank statements and provide
reports for you, but also candetect fraud.
So ask the question, Mike.
Well, how can you detect fraud?
And they said, well, it'ssimple because every bank actually
has their own custom font andfont size.
Really?
(28:06):
If you try to falsify and likeput a PDF over like the date or something,
or change the numbers on.
I'll just use a Chase statement.
This system can pick it upbecause Chase has, you know, it might
look like Times New Roman, butthey have a custom font and custom
font size.
So there is no PDF editor outthere that has that font and font
(28:29):
size.
So it can easily be picked up.
Really?
I had never, I mean, I workedin banking for.
And finance for a decade and a half.
I never heard that before.
That's what they told me.
So I'm like, it makes sensethat happens.
Then the other one that we arestarting to use now, which again,
(28:50):
a service just for people listening.
So now through Plaid, Plaidhas systems where now you can verify,
like if they say you this, youcan verify that banking information,
which is, you know, cool tomake sure that again, there's not
a, you know, an error on a statement.
So.
But 100% right back to whatyou said is people have a checklist
(29:13):
and they get a document andjust check it and don't actually
look at the document whereit's like, yes, you still need to
look at the document.
So.
Right.
Yes.
I described it to someoneyesterday actually, as you know,
a checklist is great, but ifyou think about it as a recipe, let's
(29:35):
say you're baking a cake.
A checklist is a recipe tobake a cake.
But what you really need tounderstand in this business is the
chemistry of how the bakingsoda and the salt and the egg and
the flour combine when youapply heat to them for X amount of
time to get the cake at the end.
So a checklist is a greattool, but it's not.
(30:00):
It's not the full understanding.
Oh, I really like that.
That's a great analogy.
That's a great analogy.
Because also when you thinkabout it, when you're getting this
information.
And again, I'm just thinkingbaking, you know, a cake, if you
got a little too much of onething versus another, hey, you might
have to make adjustments onit, but you need to understand the
(30:22):
importance of every one ofthose ingredients and are able to
make those adjustments.
And that's where experience,of course, comes in.
Yes.
Yeah.
A lot of that is just repetition.
And, you know, if you're notsure, have financial friends that
you look over their shoulderand they look over yours.
I mean, I've got friends.
When something is unclear tome, I'll say, can you look at this
(30:43):
with me?
And vice versa.
The other thing, too, is ifyou're originating a loan, there's
underwriters out there andservices for anywhere from 500 to
750 bucks.
They'll underwrite the wholeloan for you and basically go through
and tell you, kind of give youan idea of what's coming up.
And they've got experiencebecause they've probably done thousands
(31:04):
of them.
And it's a cost that you cango back and charge the borrower.
And you can also learn fromtheir experience.
To get the experience, keepdoing it.
Yes.
I love the idea, actually, ofdoing your own underwriting and then
sending it to one of theseorganizations to see, you know, how
(31:25):
it matched up, how did you do?
And then that gives you theopportunities to learn and improve
100%.
That's, again, another greatlittle, you know, nugget right there
of ways to learn is do it yourself.
And then it's like, hand it tothe teacher.
Let the teacher go.
Do, you know, take the sametest and send it back to you, and
you can kind of see how you did.
(31:46):
So, yeah.
Not to mention, if you caught stuff.
That they didn't, you alsohave a measure of their.
The value that you'rereceiving for your.
Your investment.
Yeah, 100%.
Okay, let's enter thelightning round.
Okay, so, you know, kind ofreally great here.
Yep.
Really quick.
(32:07):
I say that, and then we justkeep talking.
But, you know, what's.
What's a word or phrase, howyou would describe the current real
estate market?
Weird.
It's weird.
I.
There are so many financialindicators that should historically
(32:31):
be indicating X, but insteadwe're getting Q.
And there are some artificialmanipulations going on that, you
know, lots of arguments couldbe made for or against or neutral
it's just weird.
Yeah.
Everybody logically, I thinkis like, okay, interest rates shot
(32:55):
up, home prices got their bump.
But eventually at some pointsomething's got to give, either the
rates or the pricing.
Everyone's kind of sittingthere with their popcorn waiting
to see and month and monthkeep going on and nothing's happening.
And it's like, okay, you know,and like, you know, and all of a
sudden if something pops onedirection the other, then everyone's
(33:18):
going to be like, I told you so.
Because it seems logical thatsalaries aren't jack getting jacked
up, but insurance, taxes andeverything else is.
So where's all this money come from?
That's really right.
Right.
I think too, with a lot ofthe, you know, the larger commercial
(33:39):
loans coming up on rateadjustments and balloons and lending
appetites of largeinstitutions have changed.
I've had, I've had at leastthree calls in the last seven days
of people who are looking fornew lending because they have a rate
adjustment or a balloon comingup with their bank and the bank has
(34:01):
told them, we're not going torenew your loan.
We don't have an appetite forthis collateral anymore.
So, yeah, it's, it's about to get.
I, I am concerned that it'sabout to get, unfortunately, interesting.
However, if you are not overleveraged and you're watching carefully
(34:23):
and you're checking the pulseand you trust but verify.
I'm sure we've all heard thewisdom that downturns are when fortunes
are made.
Now please let me say I am notpredicting a downturn.
I'm just saying if that's what happens.
Because historically theindicators on a historical basis
(34:50):
predict a downturn.
I don't know what's going tohappen because it's weird.
Yeah, it's.
Everyone's kind of justscratching their heads a little bit
and nobody knows, let's behonest, nobody knows.
What's one thing you'vechanged your mind about in the last
year?
You know, I used to say everydeal is a good deal if you can come
(35:15):
up with the right exitstrategy and the right, you know,
leverage structure, cashstructure, equity structure.
I used to really believe thatwith all of the levers that we can
move and manipulate, everydeal could be a good deal with the
right manipulation.
(35:35):
I don't believe that anymore.
I have heard increasinglyabout deals that, well, I mean, I
heard one, two weeks ago that,you know, the, the ARV of a property
was going to be, it was asmall single family home in Ohio
and the ARV was going to be 150.
(35:58):
But the repairs due tofoundation, structural issues and
everything else, the repairswere going to be like 170.
Well, there's no way that Ican think of to make that a good
deal.
I mean it's going to cost youmore to even just demolish it.
(36:18):
So.
Yeah, I just might, I don'tknow what you do with that.
So agree on that as well.
Last question.
One person you'd like to thankfor your success.
I don't know if I can tell youthis without crying.
(36:38):
There is a woman who is nolonger with us on this plane of existence.
She.
I was a broke single momfollowing my, my divorce against
my will.
(36:59):
And I had been a stay at home mom.
I had a three year old and afive year old and I found myself
single not by my desire.
And I was just trying to finda way to make life work with these,
these babies.
And a woman gave me a chanceand her name was Kathy Carter.
(37:25):
And she trusted me andbelieved in me enough to just give
me a shot.
And she changed my life forever.
I mean it was, it was a parttime bank teller job but it changed
my life forever and itlaunched me in a completely new trajectory.
(37:48):
And in fact that bank branchwas torn down a couple of years ago
and it's in another city.
My husband was kind enough toask one of his co workers, this is
a secret so don't tell anybody.
Chris snuck over to the siteand grabbed one of the bricks for
(38:10):
me of the, the bank where Istarted my financial services endeavors.
So I'm not going to get up andgrab it.
But yeah, I, I have a brickover here from the original bank
where I started and rest in peace.
Kathy Carter.
No, that's a heartwarmingstory as just your entire journey
(38:34):
has just, you know, has been,you know, incredible and defy, you
know, most people, you know,most people in this business look
at everything as numbers andstatistics and now you have defied
every odds that has come out there.
So it really boils down tojust the story you tell and just
(38:55):
your integrity, your honesty,the hard work and you know, never
giving up.
And it's something that peoplereally can emulate and look forward
to seeing that, you know, noteverybody is always dealt a great
hand and just you know, thingshappen in life and you know, some
(39:16):
people have, you know, thingsthat aren't so great that happen
but to be able to pick up thepieces really shows just the strong
will and character that you've possessed.
And now everything you do, youknow, with your businesses and stuff
is phenomenal.
So want to thank you forcoming on this episode of the Paper
Trail podcast and look forwardto seeing you in a few months at
(39:39):
the conference in Chandler, Arizona.
Well, thank you so much.
It's a genuine pleasure andI'm super excited.
So those listening, you cancheck out the show notes with information
if you'd like to to reach outto Chris.
And again, we look forward toseeing you in September.
Thank you all.
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