Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, hello everyone, this is Stormy and welcome to the Pulse.
Always keeping our fingertips on the pulse of our community,
and so glad to be with everybody while we're outlive
today at the Hilton for the Literacy Mid South Luncheon
or breakfast that is honoring some people in our community
and even bringing in people from around the world, around
(00:22):
the globe rather well, anyway, today I am talking.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
To doctor Erica Armstrong Don bar How are you.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
I am, Well, I'm so happy to be here. Thanks
for spending some time with me. We get to talk
and I'm excited about it about being in Memphis.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Yeah, I'm excited to have you. Welcome to Memphis. Well, listen,
you're doing some pretty amazing things.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Because are you, like a h historian.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
You're kind of bringing to light the story of the
African American woman.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
I you know, I am.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
I I feel very fortunate that I get to do
what I love, which is to read, write and teach
about black people.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
And so I am. I'm a historian.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
I teach it at Emory University in Atlanta, but I'm
also a writer. I work on African American women's history
and children's books as well. And then more recently, I've
started working with TV and film, and so I'm a
co executive producer on the TV show The Gilded Age,
HBO's successful show that does have a storyline about black
(01:30):
New York in the nineteenth century. So I feel really
fortunate that I get to sort of have different platforms
to teach, whether it's in the classroom, through my books
or through television.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
Like I said, I'm fortunate.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Wow, So you're doing it all.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
You're probably doing a lot of things that a lot
of people would. You know, maybe people have seen The
Gilded Age but didn't know that a black woman was
behind it.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Did you write it or how did that come about?
Speaker 4 (02:00):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (02:00):
No, And actually there are several black women involved in
the creative team for The Gilded Age. I actually came
on because of my expertise in African American women's history,
so I came on as a historical consultant. The show
is created by Julian Fellows, who created Downton Abbey, And
(02:21):
when the show was we were sort of in the
development phase. They came to me because they had a
significant storyline on black New Yorker, specifically a black woman,
and so they wanted and this is a feather in
their cap that they wanted to make certain they got
it right, and so they asked me to come on
to read for historical accuracy but also sensitivity, and over
(02:44):
time that role grew from I'm still like the lead
historical consultant, but eventually became the co executive producer of
the show executive produced by and written by Sonya Warfield,
who also a black woman, and directed and executive produced
by Sally Richardson Whitfield, who's also many people know her
(03:08):
as a black she's a black woman as well, and
so there's a significant number of black women behind the
production of this show.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
You know, I think that's so interesting. So you're an author,
you're an educator? Are you still at the university?
Speaker 4 (03:23):
I am.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
I taught my class yesterday and then got on a
got on a flight, or taught wednesday, got on a
flight the next day. Yeah, no, I teach. I'm committed
to teaching African and this semester I'm teaching the early
part of African American history. So it's it's a I
have different classrooms as like as how I see it.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
You know what I want to ask you because I
know that.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
The teaching of African American histories and studies has been
a topic in our country.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
So how is it that.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
You have I guess, how do you inspire the next
generation of young people with what is happening today, with
so much talk of suppressing our history. How do you
get them to I guess, make it come alive and
get beyond that to you know, share the stories with
young people.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
You know, young people are smarter than we give them
credit for. And I think with the expansion of technology,
you know they While we have to work on reading
because that has lost some favor, and we know that,
but what hasn't lost favor is storytelling. And I think
(04:36):
what I try to do in my classroom, what I
try to do in the books that I write, what
I try to do or help to do with this
television show, is to engage in really good storytelling that.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
Is shaped by historical fact, that is authentic.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
And I think when you do that, whether as an
educator or write or in film and television, you have
a shot of getting folks interested and engaged.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
And I'll tell you this, Although what I teach and
what I've been trained to do.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Is under question right now by some not by all,
not by all. I think that's important to remember that
this is a call for some folks, but many others
are still invested, interested, and bullied by the story of
(05:35):
people who have been marginalized in America's narrative, whether it
is black folks, whether it's women, whether it's Indigenous people,
whether it's Latin X folks.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
There, you can't stop because people don't want it.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
No, no, if we did.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Or because it's not people, but some people don't want it,
you can't stop. And I love it that you haven't,
by the way, No, you know, listen, have been I
would probably talk about a little bit of this.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
Today and a little bit.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
There have always been attempts to limit access to literacy,
to education, and that's because people understand that knowledge is power,
and if you prohibit people from gaining access to knowledge.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
Then you prohibit them from having power.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
And so I see it as part of my job
to open up access, to democratize education as best I
can through telling stories right, telling engaging stories ruled by fact,
and hopefully reminding people of this nation's history, where we
(06:51):
fit in it, where we have built it, where we
have contributed, and also just to understand the larger narrative
about power.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
In this nation and how we've persevered because we have
and I think too giving people power what you do
with students in the classroom, Maybe the biggest fear for
some folks is the application of that power, because I mean,
you know, the application of the knowledge that you share.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
With the application and the knowledge.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Okay, because somebody's gonna hear that, and somebody's gonna hear
the stories that you share and the stories that we
talk about a lot of us. You know that they're
gonna hear that, and it's gonna make them want to
do something different, or make them want to change, or
make them want to start that business, or give them
empower them as a woman to know that you can
(07:42):
do it.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
That you can do it, and that you come from
a long line of people who persevered under the greatest
of odds, under oppressive conditions.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
We don't want that, we don't want people to relive that.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
But in some ways, the reminder that you can, that
you must you know that. I think we all need
that every now and then in our lives.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Yeah, so Memphis, you're in Memphis. Tell me a woman
that you teach about at your school that has roots
in Memphis, that perhaps has inspired you.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Well, I'm not.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
In the classroom right now, but I just published a
book in the fall the summer, and this is part
of a children's series a middle grade reader. I wanted
to write books for teachers to use in the classroom,
and I have a series on Black women in biography.
(08:52):
It's called Rise, Risk and Remembrance. And the book that
was just published was about the life of iwas, ah.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I don't know why, but I just knew you were
going to go to her.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
So, I mean, you can't understand Memphis and Memphis, the
history here and the central role of black women without
going right to Ida b Wells Barnett, right, And so the.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
Book is about her. It's about her time as.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
A young person, because in the attempt to kind of
engage young readers, I wanted very much for them to
see these canonical figures as kids, as young people, as
because they were because they were and thinking about who
Ida b Wells was as a child. When she is
forced to take over her family because her father and
(09:40):
mother are killed in a yellow fever epidemic, and she
takes on the care and concern of her siblings as
a teenager. You know, this is what rise risk remembrance.
Speaker 5 (09:54):
Id B.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Wells was someone who fits sort of perfectly in there,
and we got to.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Do a little Memphis history as well. Oh I love it.
I love it. I love it.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Oh my goodness, it is so beautiful talking to you,
talking to a black woman who's doing beautiful things.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Not just at where you because where are you from.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
I'm from Philly.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
You're from Philly. That's where you teach, right.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
No, I teach it in Atlanta at Emory. But I'm
born and raised in Philadelphia. Always will be a Philadelphia, Okay,
the city of brotherly love, sisterly affection.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
Okay, come I with it.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Don't forget about the sisters. I know that's right. So
you're right up the road, so you'll have to come back,
isn't all.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
I will come back whenever invited.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Or just come back to eat some of this good
food too.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
That's the problem, though, that's the problem.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
That's a beautiful problem.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
That this is so rich in culture, and part of
that culture is food. I mean, I think food is
part of the culture with African Americans, or at least
we made it that way. It's what gives us joy
when we hang out with our family member Sunday dinners,
you know, with your family, and things like that bring
you closer together.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Food is a part of that.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
It is, it's a part, and you know culturally, not
just with African Americans, but I think.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
We can make that application across culture. Right.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
That food is that kind of grounding communal object that
we share with one another, and then the things that
come from it.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
It's the storytelling around the table.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
It's the history that shared orally. You know, that's what
black folks did when laws prohibited them from reading and writing.
The oral culture around the meal that passed on history
generation after generation. And so I don't take lightly the
meals that we have with our family, with our friends,
(11:46):
but also they become what's interesting when we think about
it politically, the dinner table or a table with a
meal is a place where many negotiations have happened, right,
and where progress we're strategy was considered and figured out,
especially when we think about a modern civil rights movement
(12:07):
here in the South, right, that many of those strategy
sessions happened over dinner, happened over a lunchtime meal, right,
And so I feel like food and meals, like there's
a power behind that, both in terms of history gathering
and storytelling and politics.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yeah, and Thanksgiving is right around the corner, so you
know it's gonna be food and politics and all of that.
Speaker 6 (12:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
So we got to wrap this up.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
But I do want to at some point have you
back on the show, because I feel like you're sharing
stories of all these women but feel like you got
one too.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
Well.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
You know, I'm a historian, so I like studying dead people,
so I don't have to talk about myself.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
That's not my lane.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
I like to keep my stuff underwrap. Maybe when I'm
older and I don't care anymore.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
But what I would, I'd be happy to.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Come back and talk to you about the work that
I do, but more specifically about the role that black
women have played in building this nation.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
I think we can learn something from it.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
I know we can. All right, let's get back to it,
you guys.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Thank y'all for joining me for the Pulse today. I
am moving on to guest number two. Thank you to
doctor Dunbar. Y'all check out The Guilded Age on HBO
when you get time, and some of her books. She's
got some amazing ones when you get time to do
that as well.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
But I've got another.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Let's see, author, historian, teacher, professor, straight out of Memphis.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
Are you from Memphis?
Speaker 6 (13:43):
No, I'm not from Memphis, sat.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Oh, where are you from?
Speaker 6 (13:45):
From California?
Speaker 2 (13:46):
How long have you been here?
Speaker 6 (13:48):
Twenty one years?
Speaker 2 (13:49):
You're from Memphis.
Speaker 6 (13:50):
Thank you. I'll take that. I'll take that from Memphians.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Okay, so today you guys hanging out with the literacy
of mid South and doing their amazing event that happened today.
Speaker 6 (14:02):
But doctor Charles McKinny.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
McKenny, sir smart man too, by the way, I mean, yeah,
he knows that. But let me tell y'all something. He's
over at Rhodes College. Tell me what that's like.
Speaker 6 (14:17):
It's been an odyssey.
Speaker 5 (14:18):
So I'm a historian, so I think about change over time,
and so I can say a lot has changed from
when I first got to Memphis in two thousand and
five to what it looks like and feels like to
be over there in twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Five teaching what subject over there.
Speaker 5 (14:38):
So I'm in the history department, I'm be in history
in Africana Studies, and so I do primarily African American
history courses, so courses on civil rights, slavery, Black experience
in the United States, African American politics. Next semester I'll
be teaching my class on the Black women's activism the
African American History Survey.
Speaker 6 (14:56):
Yeah, all kinds of all manner of tasty, tasty.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Goodness, all the subjects. They don't want us to know
about it anyway. And doctor Charles MCKINNI was just putting
you up on, as the young folks would say, gain
and it's bigger and sadder than that. But at any rate,
let's get back to literacy because I know that's a
big deal to you and what you teach over at
Rhodes College. You said something today that really blessed me
(15:22):
talking to people about how do you, I guess, teach
literacy to beyond well the lay person, How does the
person who is not an educator spread the word and
help our young people and people period today.
Speaker 5 (15:40):
One of the things that I think we can do,
right and again I'm a historian, right, so one of
the things I think.
Speaker 6 (15:44):
We can do is we remember how.
Speaker 5 (15:46):
Expansive the assignment was when it came to teaching literacy, right, Doctor,
you know lats and Billings made a great point about
how you know you learned to read in church, right,
you learned to read, you know, on the block in
the neighborhood.
Speaker 6 (16:01):
Right. I mean, you know, if we.
Speaker 5 (16:04):
If black folk in twenty twenty five traveled back in
time a century to nineteen twenty five and told black
folk in nineteen twenty five that the only place where
we expect children to learn literacy is the schools, that would.
Speaker 6 (16:20):
Have laughed at us, like, what do you mean?
Speaker 5 (16:22):
What do you what do you mean that civic civic
organizations and clubs aren't involved in literacy? What do you
mean fraternities and sororities aren't involved in literacy? On thestent lines,
what do you mean that you know that that churches
and all of the other social institutions where people live
and exist, What do you mean that they're not involved
and engaged in literacy and in some way, shape or form,
that doesn't make any sense to us.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Do you feel like we've we've stepped away from that
a lot of us in our communities, Yes, we have,
you know, and that's part of the that's part of
the challenge because in my view, right we've we've placed
too much of this responsibility.
Speaker 5 (16:54):
On schools, right you know again, you know, you go
back a century and tell you know, car Woodson and
Mary McLeod Luffune and Booker T. Washington, and you go
and tell these titans of black you know, these titans
of black life, that the only place they are going
to learn their history was in schools. They'd be like, No,
that's ridiculous, that doesn't make any sense. That's not cool,
that's not how.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
That works, right right, Yeah, Yeah, I like how she
phrased that, and you just phrased it too, because it helps,
I think all of us to think outside of the box.
Because what are we doing as a community to make
sure that our children and.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Not just our children.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
There are a lot of folks out there that don't
know how to read, that are not children anymore.
Speaker 5 (17:34):
Yeah, my charge, you know, and I've been I've been
saying this for a while now and I continue to
say it.
Speaker 6 (17:40):
If you're part of a black organization, right.
Speaker 5 (17:43):
Civic, religious, whatever, and you're not engaged in some way
with literacy with young people or adults, then you're failing us.
You're failing us, right, You're part of the problem. Right now,
that's not to say, you know, I don't expect the
you know, the Omegas or the Delta or whatever to
like save you know, save you know, save all of
(18:03):
the black children.
Speaker 6 (18:04):
Right.
Speaker 5 (18:05):
But if you're sitting up wondering what should what should happen? Right,
and you're not actively engaged in this effort. If we
all say that literacy is serious, right, we all say
that that literacy is a cornerstone of education, a cornerstone
of democracy, but none of us are engaged in any
sort of substantive way to advance these issues.
Speaker 6 (18:26):
Then what are you doing? Then you're part of the problem.
So it's time. So it's time for folks to step up.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Well I would ask you this too.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
When you say step up and we have these conversations,
when do we put it back on the parents.
Speaker 6 (18:45):
I've got a colleague at Rhodes, Laura Taylor, who.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
And I'm talking to doctor Charles McKinney OVERTT Roads. You guys,
so so thank you for joining you the conversation. And
y'all keep listening because we're talking here, and now continue
what you were saying.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I'm sorry I interrupted you.
Speaker 6 (18:59):
It's got a rose. Her name is Laura Taylor.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
Shout out, hey, Laura, And she does some great work
on black literacies, and one of the things that she's
discovering is a lot of this, a lot of the
talking points we have about what is or isn't happening
in black and black households a lot of that stuff
we're not really sure of.
Speaker 6 (19:17):
Right.
Speaker 5 (19:17):
Oh, you know, no one's teaching black kids to read,
no one, no one's concerned about literacy.
Speaker 6 (19:21):
How do you know that?
Speaker 5 (19:23):
Right? You know a lot of the statistics that are
being floated around. You know, sixty percent of the students
don't have books in there. Where'd you get that from?
Speaker 6 (19:30):
Right?
Speaker 5 (19:30):
Where's where's that number from? Show me the study?
Speaker 6 (19:33):
Right.
Speaker 5 (19:34):
So, we we're bringing a lot of deficit model thinking
to this, to this problem, to this issue, right, you know.
And so and I think part of this too, right
is you know, having very traditional, a really traditional notion
of what it means to be literate, what it means
to engage in literacy, right, you know. So you know,
(19:54):
so a kid who's on right, so you know, so
we'll discount you know, a kid who is texting and
who is on TikTok, right and is engaging in literacy
in this in this way, we'll say, look, that's not literacy.
A book is literacy, right, you know, so we got
to we have to navigate that, right, We've got to.
So part of the part of the problem, I think
(20:16):
is we have to start having a much clearer understanding
and which means and this means talking to parents, yeah right,
this means going out into communities, which means stop saying
what's not what is or isn't happening in households and
go into those households and figure it out in terms
of what is or isn't happening.
Speaker 6 (20:36):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Right, Now that's powerful because I've been saying a lot.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Now you make me think differently when I say it.
I love that.
Speaker 6 (20:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:43):
So I mean, you know, let's let's figure out what
our baselines are with regard to with regard to literacy, right,
with regard to people's investment in literacy.
Speaker 6 (20:51):
Right, you know, all young people don't want to learn today.
Speaker 5 (20:53):
And when I hear people say that, I'm like, you know,
wanting to learn looks a lot different in twenty twenty
five than it did in nineteen sixty five when you
were coming up old guy. Right, you know, it's just
not right, seventy eighty ninety, so on and so forth. Right,
it looks different now it is different. Let me give
you a quick example of this.
Speaker 6 (21:12):
Right. So, I grew up.
Speaker 5 (21:13):
When I was growing up, I was into comic books,
right and so, and my parents let me read all
the comic books.
Speaker 6 (21:18):
But my mom had a rule. Look, you got to
read a book book after you read a.
Speaker 5 (21:22):
Certain number of comic books. You can't just read comic books, right,
and so, in her mind, she was making a distinction
between you know, Treasure Island or you know or or
you know, A Wrinkling Time and the latest Captain America
comic book. She was like, that's she was like, look,
you got to read a book book.
Speaker 6 (21:39):
And I get that. I understand it right, right, So
fast forward.
Speaker 5 (21:45):
I'm a father, right, you know, I've got you know,
I've got my wife, and I have two boys. I've
got an older daughter, and so my wife Natalie and
I hey baby, hey, shout out to Natalie. So right, yeah,
so our boys, our boys are now twenty five and twenty.
But our older son, Io Daily he also was a
comic book kid, right.
Speaker 6 (22:05):
And so.
Speaker 5 (22:06):
You know, so he's you know, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen,
and he's reading comic books, and I'm like, okay, he
needs to be reading book books, right, And I see
him online reading these comic books.
Speaker 6 (22:17):
But then I.
Speaker 5 (22:18):
Start to notice what he's reading, right, And what he's
reading is after he finishes reading the comic book, then
he's going on. He's going on other sites where you
can see where the if you're interested in the artwork
of this comic, you find it. He knows the name
of the artist, and then he goes to the artist's website.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Wo.
Speaker 5 (22:40):
So the artist is talking about his background and his
motivations and his interests. Right, he goes, oh, well, who
wrote this comic? I'm going to go to his site
and read about his motivations for And so he's not
just reading comic books, right, He's reading commentary on the
comic books. He's reading how the comic books are being constructive.
(23:01):
He's reading about the story.
Speaker 6 (23:02):
Arcs in the comic books. Right. Yeah, So that's not so.
Speaker 5 (23:07):
His comic book reading in twenty thirteen is completely different
from my comic book reading in nineteen seventy three, nineteen
eighty three.
Speaker 6 (23:17):
Those are two very different things.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
And the way that he did it, and you know
what I'm saying. He goes, yeah, he went he did research.
Speaker 5 (23:25):
Yeah, right, because he was curious about what he was reading.
And he also had access because of the internet.
Speaker 6 (23:30):
Right.
Speaker 5 (23:30):
And so social media and the Internet has radically shifted
our relationship to literacy.
Speaker 6 (23:35):
So we need to keep that in mind.
Speaker 5 (23:37):
When we're asking, right, when we're asking about literacy. The
other thing that sticks into my that sticks in my
craw my first education job.
Speaker 6 (23:45):
I taught third grade.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
I taught elementary school in a public school in south
central Los Angeles, Right, And I used to hear the
oldest teachers all the time talk about how you know,
kids today they don't want to they don't want to read.
Speaker 6 (23:58):
They don't want to read, they don't want to read.
Speaker 5 (23:59):
But it always struck me as interesting that the same
group of kids who you say aren't interested in literacy, right,
And other people have made this point too, the same
group of kids who say they're not you're not when
you say they're not interested in literacy. When that hot
new album drops, Yes, right, the hot new album drops
on Wednesday, on Saturday, they got all the lyrics memorized.
Speaker 6 (24:20):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (24:21):
Right, So the same group of people that you don't
think is interested in literacy, right, are sitting down with
you know, back in my day it was CDs, right,
or sitting down and listening to and digesting these words, right,
digesting these metaphors and these alliteration, digesting all of the stuff, right,
whether it's rap lyrics or song lyrics or whatever. And
we'll be able to tell you what these lyrics mean,
(24:42):
and we'll be able to make connections. If this is
somebody's third album, right, we'll be able. And you ask
them about this particular artist's narrative arc or creative arc,
they'll be like, oh, well, yeah, well, you know, Jay's
third album is different from the second album.
Speaker 6 (24:56):
And then kanye Is second album.
Speaker 5 (24:59):
Is different from his first album, is different from and
so and so. Right, So it's like, wait a minute,
I thought y'all said that these kids aren't interested.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
In literacy, and you know, you what you make me
think about because I think the whole world was interested
in Kendrick Lamar and Drake.
Speaker 6 (25:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
I think they pushed.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
All of us not just to listen to their music,
but to read.
Speaker 6 (25:19):
Yeah. Right.
Speaker 5 (25:20):
So again, the point here is we've got to be
very careful about making assessments about people's interest in literacy,
people's investment in literacy.
Speaker 6 (25:32):
We've got to figure out where people are. Right. And
now this is not to say that we don't have problems.
We do. We've got sue, we've got some serious challenges.
Speaker 5 (25:40):
Yeah, right, but we've got to I think we've got
to take a three hundred and sixty.
Speaker 6 (25:42):
Degree approach to these challenges. Right.
Speaker 5 (25:45):
We're running around telling people and it's like one of
the panelists that earlier today, Right, we're running around telling people,
you work hard, to play by the rules, going to school,
you'll live happily ever after.
Speaker 6 (25:53):
Now, what happens when that's not true anymore?
Speaker 5 (25:56):
And you know, and we're talking, you know, and we
can't have these conversass as if that just stopped being
true in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 6 (26:05):
This has been.
Speaker 5 (26:05):
True for generations of poor and working class black people
who had parents and grandparents go to school right and
not be able to advance in society. Right, Yes, I
got my high school diploma, Yes I did the thing right,
and I'm still and i'm and I'm still a laborer.
Speaker 6 (26:25):
Right.
Speaker 5 (26:26):
And so that's the other conversation we have to have, right,
is what happens when when the conventional wisdom around education
just doesn't apply anymore, right with regard to all of
the things we say about education and what all of
the things we say that education can do or can
provide for people.
Speaker 6 (26:46):
So we've got to be really clear.
Speaker 5 (26:47):
And really honest about that as well. We want people
to we want people to be literate. Why why do we.
Speaker 6 (26:55):
Want people to be literate?
Speaker 5 (26:56):
Yes, of course I agree with that, right, But do
we ever tell do we ever have that conversation around
why this is important, Around why it's important for you
above and beyond your job, above and beyond your ability
to go make somebody else some money, above and beyond
the ability for you to open up a business, which
is great, do your thing, right, But why is literacy important?
Speaker 6 (27:19):
It's crucial? Right?
Speaker 5 (27:20):
And this isn't our opportunity to have these conversations right
about that link between literacy and liberation? Right? This is
something that for the vast majority of time that black
folk have lived in this country, it was against the
law for us to learn how.
Speaker 6 (27:34):
To read and write. We would be murdered for that.
Speaker 5 (27:39):
There's a reason for that, and there's also a reason
why this whole literacy thing is so hard to come
by right. One of the things I alluded to in
my comments on the stage right is you know, literacy
and illiteracy both have histories.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Yes, you said.
Speaker 5 (27:55):
And just like there is an investment in literacy, there
was also a deep investment in illiteracy.
Speaker 6 (28:00):
See.
Speaker 5 (28:01):
Wow, how well trained do I need you to be
for you to come and engage in this manual labor
job making seven fifty five.
Speaker 6 (28:07):
An hour or whatever? I'm not How pressed.
Speaker 5 (28:11):
Am I that you graduated from high school when all
I need is your labor? How pressed am I about that?
Speaker 6 (28:19):
Am I really that pressed about that?
Speaker 5 (28:20):
Am I really that concerned about you getting a quality
education when I just need you to perform this labor
for ten hours a day, for no wage, for low
wages and no benefits.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
You're getting to what doctor Billings said about freeing your mind.
Speaker 5 (28:34):
Yeah right, I mean this is this is also this
is the dangerous nature of literacy, the dangerous nature of education.
I mean, this is why, this is why, this is
one of the reasons why it was against the law. Right.
Frederick Douglas is a great example of this. When you
read Frederick Douglas's narrative, he talks about learning, teaching, himself
to read. And once he's able to read, he's able
to read these things and whole worlds open up in
his mind.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Wow, that's powerful.
Speaker 6 (28:56):
The whole worlds of liberatory possibility.
Speaker 5 (28:59):
What is it you mean if I was free, I
could go do this, I could go do that, I
could go I could live, I could be here, I
could be there. These are the things I could be
engaged in if I was free. Oh, I'll take more, Yes, please,
I'll take some of that.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Well, Doctor Charles McKinney. Y'all listen, we got to wrap
this conversation up. But I'm telling you Rose College, y'all
got something special over there.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
But thank you for stopping and having a conversation with me.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
You'll have to come back and by the station and
let's have this conversation some more.
Speaker 6 (29:31):
Call me when you need me. Happy to do it.
Speaker 5 (29:33):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Okay, it's the pulse.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
We're keeping our fingertips on the pulse of our community.
I'm stormy, God bless you have a great week. We'll
see you next time.
Well, hello everyone, this is Stormy and welcome to the Pulse.
Always keeping our fingertips on the pulse of our community,
and so glad to be with everybody while we're outlive
today at the Hilton for the Literacy Mid South Luncheon
or breakfast that is honoring some people in our community
and even bringing in people from around the world, around
(00:22):
the globe rather well, anyway, today I am talking.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
To doctor Erica Armstrong Don bar How are you.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
I am, Well, I'm so happy to be here. Thanks
for spending some time with me. We get to talk
and I'm excited about it about being in Memphis.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Yeah, I'm excited to have you. Welcome to Memphis. Well, listen,
you're doing some pretty amazing things.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Because are you, like a h historian.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
You're kind of bringing to light the story of the
African American woman.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
I you know, I am.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
I I feel very fortunate that I get to do
what I love, which is to read, write and teach
about black people.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
And so I am. I'm a historian.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
I teach it at Emory University in Atlanta, but I'm
also a writer. I work on African American women's history
and children's books as well. And then more recently, I've
started working with TV and film, and so I'm a
co executive producer on the TV show The Gilded Age,
HBO's successful show that does have a storyline about black
(01:30):
New York in the nineteenth century. So I feel really
fortunate that I get to sort of have different platforms
to teach, whether it's in the classroom, through my books
or through television.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
Like I said, I'm fortunate.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Wow, So you're doing it all.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
You're probably doing a lot of things that a lot
of people would. You know, maybe people have seen The
Gilded Age but didn't know that a black woman was
behind it.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Did you write it or how did that come about?
Speaker 4 (02:00):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (02:00):
No, And actually there are several black women involved in
the creative team for The Gilded Age. I actually came
on because of my expertise in African American women's history,
so I came on as a historical consultant. The show
is created by Julian Fellows, who created Downton Abbey, And
(02:21):
when the show was we were sort of in the
development phase. They came to me because they had a
significant storyline on black New Yorker, specifically a black woman,
and so they wanted and this is a feather in
their cap that they wanted to make certain they got
it right, and so they asked me to come on
to read for historical accuracy but also sensitivity, and over
(02:44):
time that role grew from I'm still like the lead
historical consultant, but eventually became the co executive producer of
the show executive produced by and written by Sonya Warfield,
who also a black woman, and directed and executive produced
by Sally Richardson Whitfield, who's also many people know her
(03:08):
as a black she's a black woman as well, and
so there's a significant number of black women behind the
production of this show.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
You know, I think that's so interesting. So you're an author,
you're an educator? Are you still at the university?
Speaker 4 (03:23):
I am.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
I taught my class yesterday and then got on a
got on a flight, or taught wednesday, got on a
flight the next day. Yeah, no, I teach. I'm committed
to teaching African and this semester I'm teaching the early
part of African American history. So it's it's a I
have different classrooms as like as how I see it.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
You know what I want to ask you because I
know that.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
The teaching of African American histories and studies has been
a topic in our country.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
So how is it that.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
You have I guess, how do you inspire the next
generation of young people with what is happening today, with
so much talk of suppressing our history. How do you
get them to I guess, make it come alive and
get beyond that to you know, share the stories with
young people.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
You know, young people are smarter than we give them
credit for. And I think with the expansion of technology,
you know they While we have to work on reading
because that has lost some favor, and we know that,
but what hasn't lost favor is storytelling. And I think
(04:36):
what I try to do in my classroom, what I
try to do in the books that I write, what
I try to do or help to do with this
television show, is to engage in really good storytelling that.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
Is shaped by historical fact, that is authentic.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
And I think when you do that, whether as an
educator or write or in film and television, you have
a shot of getting folks interested and engaged.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
And I'll tell you this, Although what I teach and
what I've been trained to do.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Is under question right now by some not by all,
not by all. I think that's important to remember that
this is a call for some folks, but many others
are still invested, interested, and bullied by the story of
(05:35):
people who have been marginalized in America's narrative, whether it
is black folks, whether it's women, whether it's Indigenous people,
whether it's Latin X folks.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
There, you can't stop because people don't want it.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
No, no, if we did.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Or because it's not people, but some people don't want it,
you can't stop. And I love it that you haven't,
by the way, No, you know, listen, have been I
would probably talk about a little bit of this.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
Today and a little bit.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
There have always been attempts to limit access to literacy,
to education, and that's because people understand that knowledge is power,
and if you prohibit people from gaining access to knowledge.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
Then you prohibit them from having power.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
And so I see it as part of my job
to open up access, to democratize education as best I
can through telling stories right, telling engaging stories ruled by fact,
and hopefully reminding people of this nation's history, where we
(06:51):
fit in it, where we have built it, where we
have contributed, and also just to understand the larger narrative
about power.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
In this nation and how we've persevered because we have
and I think too giving people power what you do
with students in the classroom, Maybe the biggest fear for
some folks is the application of that power, because I mean,
you know, the application of the knowledge that you share.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
With the application and the knowledge.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Okay, because somebody's gonna hear that, and somebody's gonna hear
the stories that you share and the stories that we
talk about a lot of us. You know that they're
gonna hear that, and it's gonna make them want to
do something different, or make them want to change, or
make them want to start that business, or give them
empower them as a woman to know that you can
(07:42):
do it.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
That you can do it, and that you come from
a long line of people who persevered under the greatest
of odds, under oppressive conditions.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
We don't want that, we don't want people to relive that.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
But in some ways, the reminder that you can, that
you must you know that. I think we all need
that every now and then in our lives.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Yeah, so Memphis, you're in Memphis. Tell me a woman
that you teach about at your school that has roots
in Memphis, that perhaps has inspired you.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Well, I'm not.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
In the classroom right now, but I just published a
book in the fall the summer, and this is part
of a children's series a middle grade reader. I wanted
to write books for teachers to use in the classroom,
and I have a series on Black women in biography.
(08:52):
It's called Rise, Risk and Remembrance. And the book that
was just published was about the life of iwas, ah.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I don't know why, but I just knew you were
going to go to her.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
So, I mean, you can't understand Memphis and Memphis, the
history here and the central role of black women without
going right to Ida b Wells Barnett, right, And so the.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
Book is about her. It's about her time as.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
A young person, because in the attempt to kind of
engage young readers, I wanted very much for them to
see these canonical figures as kids, as young people, as
because they were because they were and thinking about who
Ida b Wells was as a child. When she is
forced to take over her family because her father and
(09:40):
mother are killed in a yellow fever epidemic, and she
takes on the care and concern of her siblings as
a teenager. You know, this is what rise risk remembrance.
Speaker 5 (09:54):
Id B.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Wells was someone who fits sort of perfectly in there,
and we got to.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Do a little Memphis history as well. Oh I love it.
I love it. I love it.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Oh my goodness, it is so beautiful talking to you,
talking to a black woman who's doing beautiful things.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Not just at where you because where are you from.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
I'm from Philly.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
You're from Philly. That's where you teach, right.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
No, I teach it in Atlanta at Emory. But I'm
born and raised in Philadelphia. Always will be a Philadelphia, Okay,
the city of brotherly love, sisterly affection.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
Okay, come I with it.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Don't forget about the sisters. I know that's right. So
you're right up the road, so you'll have to come back,
isn't all.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
I will come back whenever invited.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Or just come back to eat some of this good
food too.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
That's the problem, though, that's the problem.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
That's a beautiful problem.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
That this is so rich in culture, and part of
that culture is food. I mean, I think food is
part of the culture with African Americans, or at least
we made it that way. It's what gives us joy
when we hang out with our family member Sunday dinners,
you know, with your family, and things like that bring
you closer together.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Food is a part of that.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
It is, it's a part, and you know culturally, not
just with African Americans, but I think.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
We can make that application across culture. Right.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
That food is that kind of grounding communal object that
we share with one another, and then the things that
come from it.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
It's the storytelling around the table.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
It's the history that shared orally. You know, that's what
black folks did when laws prohibited them from reading and writing.
The oral culture around the meal that passed on history
generation after generation. And so I don't take lightly the
meals that we have with our family, with our friends,
(11:46):
but also they become what's interesting when we think about
it politically, the dinner table or a table with a
meal is a place where many negotiations have happened, right,
and where progress we're strategy was considered and figured out,
especially when we think about a modern civil rights movement
(12:07):
here in the South, right, that many of those strategy
sessions happened over dinner, happened over a lunchtime meal, right,
And so I feel like food and meals, like there's
a power behind that, both in terms of history gathering
and storytelling and politics.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yeah, and Thanksgiving is right around the corner, so you
know it's gonna be food and politics and all of that.
Speaker 6 (12:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
So we got to wrap this up.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
But I do want to at some point have you
back on the show, because I feel like you're sharing
stories of all these women but feel like you got
one too.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
Well.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
You know, I'm a historian, so I like studying dead people,
so I don't have to talk about myself.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
That's not my lane.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
I like to keep my stuff underwrap. Maybe when I'm
older and I don't care anymore.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
But what I would, I'd be happy to.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Come back and talk to you about the work that
I do, but more specifically about the role that black
women have played in building this nation.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
I think we can learn something from it.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
I know we can. All right, let's get back to it,
you guys.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Thank y'all for joining me for the Pulse today. I
am moving on to guest number two. Thank you to
doctor Dunbar. Y'all check out The Guilded Age on HBO
when you get time, and some of her books. She's
got some amazing ones when you get time to do
that as well.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
But I've got another.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Let's see, author, historian, teacher, professor, straight out of Memphis.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
Are you from Memphis?
Speaker 6 (13:43):
No, I'm not from Memphis, sat.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Oh, where are you from?
Speaker 6 (13:45):
From California?
Speaker 2 (13:46):
How long have you been here?
Speaker 6 (13:48):
Twenty one years?
Speaker 2 (13:49):
You're from Memphis.
Speaker 6 (13:50):
Thank you. I'll take that. I'll take that from Memphians.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Okay, so today you guys hanging out with the literacy
of mid South and doing their amazing event that happened today.
Speaker 6 (14:02):
But doctor Charles McKinny.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
McKenny, sir smart man too, by the way, I mean, yeah,
he knows that. But let me tell y'all something. He's
over at Rhodes College. Tell me what that's like.
Speaker 6 (14:17):
It's been an odyssey.
Speaker 5 (14:18):
So I'm a historian, so I think about change over time,
and so I can say a lot has changed from
when I first got to Memphis in two thousand and
five to what it looks like and feels like to
be over there in twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Five teaching what subject over there.
Speaker 5 (14:38):
So I'm in the history department, I'm be in history
in Africana Studies, and so I do primarily African American
history courses, so courses on civil rights, slavery, Black experience
in the United States, African American politics. Next semester I'll
be teaching my class on the Black women's activism the
African American History Survey.
Speaker 6 (14:56):
Yeah, all kinds of all manner of tasty, tasty.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Goodness, all the subjects. They don't want us to know
about it anyway. And doctor Charles MCKINNI was just putting
you up on, as the young folks would say, gain
and it's bigger and sadder than that. But at any rate,
let's get back to literacy because I know that's a
big deal to you and what you teach over at
Rhodes College. You said something today that really blessed me
(15:22):
talking to people about how do you, I guess, teach
literacy to beyond well the lay person, How does the
person who is not an educator spread the word and
help our young people and people period today.
Speaker 5 (15:40):
One of the things that I think we can do,
right and again I'm a historian, right, so one of
the things I think.
Speaker 6 (15:44):
We can do is we remember how.
Speaker 5 (15:46):
Expansive the assignment was when it came to teaching literacy, right, Doctor,
you know lats and Billings made a great point about
how you know you learned to read in church, right,
you learned to read, you know, on the block in
the neighborhood.
Speaker 6 (16:01):
Right. I mean, you know, if we.
Speaker 5 (16:04):
If black folk in twenty twenty five traveled back in
time a century to nineteen twenty five and told black
folk in nineteen twenty five that the only place where
we expect children to learn literacy is the schools, that would.
Speaker 6 (16:20):
Have laughed at us, like, what do you mean?
Speaker 5 (16:22):
What do you what do you mean that civic civic
organizations and clubs aren't involved in literacy? What do you
mean fraternities and sororities aren't involved in literacy? On thestent lines,
what do you mean that you know that that churches
and all of the other social institutions where people live
and exist, What do you mean that they're not involved
and engaged in literacy and in some way, shape or form,
that doesn't make any sense to us.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Do you feel like we've we've stepped away from that
a lot of us in our communities, Yes, we have,
you know, and that's part of the that's part of
the challenge because in my view, right we've we've placed
too much of this responsibility.
Speaker 5 (16:54):
On schools, right you know again, you know, you go
back a century and tell you know, car Woodson and
Mary McLeod Luffune and Booker T. Washington, and you go
and tell these titans of black you know, these titans
of black life, that the only place they are going
to learn their history was in schools. They'd be like, No,
that's ridiculous, that doesn't make any sense. That's not cool,
that's not how.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
That works, right right, Yeah, Yeah, I like how she
phrased that, and you just phrased it too, because it helps,
I think all of us to think outside of the box.
Because what are we doing as a community to make
sure that our children and.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Not just our children.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
There are a lot of folks out there that don't
know how to read, that are not children anymore.
Speaker 5 (17:34):
Yeah, my charge, you know, and I've been I've been
saying this for a while now and I continue to
say it.
Speaker 6 (17:40):
If you're part of a black organization, right.
Speaker 5 (17:43):
Civic, religious, whatever, and you're not engaged in some way
with literacy with young people or adults, then you're failing us.
You're failing us, right, You're part of the problem. Right now,
that's not to say, you know, I don't expect the
you know, the Omegas or the Delta or whatever to
like save you know, save you know, save all of
(18:03):
the black children.
Speaker 6 (18:04):
Right.
Speaker 5 (18:05):
But if you're sitting up wondering what should what should happen? Right,
and you're not actively engaged in this effort. If we
all say that literacy is serious, right, we all say
that that literacy is a cornerstone of education, a cornerstone
of democracy, but none of us are engaged in any
sort of substantive way to advance these issues.
Speaker 6 (18:26):
Then what are you doing? Then you're part of the problem.
So it's time. So it's time for folks to step up.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Well I would ask you this too.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
When you say step up and we have these conversations,
when do we put it back on the parents.
Speaker 6 (18:45):
I've got a colleague at Rhodes, Laura Taylor, who.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
And I'm talking to doctor Charles McKinney OVERTT Roads. You guys,
so so thank you for joining you the conversation. And
y'all keep listening because we're talking here, and now continue
what you were saying.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I'm sorry I interrupted you.
Speaker 6 (18:59):
It's got a rose. Her name is Laura Taylor.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
Shout out, hey, Laura, And she does some great work
on black literacies, and one of the things that she's
discovering is a lot of this, a lot of the
talking points we have about what is or isn't happening
in black and black households a lot of that stuff
we're not really sure of.
Speaker 6 (19:17):
Right.
Speaker 5 (19:17):
Oh, you know, no one's teaching black kids to read,
no one, no one's concerned about literacy.
Speaker 6 (19:21):
How do you know that?
Speaker 5 (19:23):
Right? You know a lot of the statistics that are
being floated around. You know, sixty percent of the students
don't have books in there. Where'd you get that from?
Speaker 6 (19:30):
Right?
Speaker 5 (19:30):
Where's where's that number from? Show me the study?
Speaker 6 (19:33):
Right.
Speaker 5 (19:34):
So, we we're bringing a lot of deficit model thinking
to this, to this problem, to this issue, right, you know.
And so and I think part of this too, right
is you know, having very traditional, a really traditional notion
of what it means to be literate, what it means
to engage in literacy, right, you know. So you know,
(19:54):
so a kid who's on right, so you know, so
we'll discount you know, a kid who is texting and
who is on TikTok, right and is engaging in literacy
in this in this way, we'll say, look, that's not literacy.
A book is literacy, right, you know, so we got
to we have to navigate that, right, We've got to.
So part of the part of the problem, I think
(20:16):
is we have to start having a much clearer understanding
and which means and this means talking to parents, yeah right,
this means going out into communities, which means stop saying
what's not what is or isn't happening in households and
go into those households and figure it out in terms
of what is or isn't happening.
Speaker 6 (20:36):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Right, Now that's powerful because I've been saying a lot.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Now you make me think differently when I say it.
I love that.
Speaker 6 (20:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:43):
So I mean, you know, let's let's figure out what
our baselines are with regard to with regard to literacy, right,
with regard to people's investment in literacy.
Speaker 6 (20:51):
Right, you know, all young people don't want to learn today.
Speaker 5 (20:53):
And when I hear people say that, I'm like, you know,
wanting to learn looks a lot different in twenty twenty
five than it did in nineteen sixty five when you
were coming up old guy. Right, you know, it's just
not right, seventy eighty ninety, so on and so forth. Right,
it looks different now it is different. Let me give
you a quick example of this.
Speaker 6 (21:12):
Right. So, I grew up.
Speaker 5 (21:13):
When I was growing up, I was into comic books,
right and so, and my parents let me read all
the comic books.
Speaker 6 (21:18):
But my mom had a rule. Look, you got to
read a book book after you read a.
Speaker 5 (21:22):
Certain number of comic books. You can't just read comic books, right,
and so, in her mind, she was making a distinction
between you know, Treasure Island or you know or or
you know, A Wrinkling Time and the latest Captain America
comic book. She was like, that's she was like, look,
you got to read a book book.
Speaker 6 (21:39):
And I get that. I understand it right, right, So
fast forward.
Speaker 5 (21:45):
I'm a father, right, you know, I've got you know,
I've got my wife, and I have two boys. I've
got an older daughter, and so my wife Natalie and
I hey baby, hey, shout out to Natalie. So right, yeah,
so our boys, our boys are now twenty five and twenty.
But our older son, Io Daily he also was a
comic book kid, right.
Speaker 6 (22:05):
And so.
Speaker 5 (22:06):
You know, so he's you know, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen,
and he's reading comic books, and I'm like, okay, he
needs to be reading book books, right, And I see
him online reading these comic books.
Speaker 6 (22:17):
But then I.
Speaker 5 (22:18):
Start to notice what he's reading, right, And what he's
reading is after he finishes reading the comic book, then
he's going on. He's going on other sites where you
can see where the if you're interested in the artwork
of this comic, you find it. He knows the name
of the artist, and then he goes to the artist's website.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Wo.
Speaker 5 (22:40):
So the artist is talking about his background and his
motivations and his interests. Right, he goes, oh, well, who
wrote this comic? I'm going to go to his site
and read about his motivations for And so he's not
just reading comic books, right, He's reading commentary on the
comic books. He's reading how the comic books are being constructive.
(23:01):
He's reading about the story.
Speaker 6 (23:02):
Arcs in the comic books. Right. Yeah, So that's not so.
Speaker 5 (23:07):
His comic book reading in twenty thirteen is completely different
from my comic book reading in nineteen seventy three, nineteen
eighty three.
Speaker 6 (23:17):
Those are two very different things.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
And the way that he did it, and you know
what I'm saying. He goes, yeah, he went he did research.
Speaker 5 (23:25):
Yeah, right, because he was curious about what he was reading.
And he also had access because of the internet.
Speaker 6 (23:30):
Right.
Speaker 5 (23:30):
And so social media and the Internet has radically shifted
our relationship to literacy.
Speaker 6 (23:35):
So we need to keep that in mind.
Speaker 5 (23:37):
When we're asking, right, when we're asking about literacy. The
other thing that sticks into my that sticks in my
craw my first education job.
Speaker 6 (23:45):
I taught third grade.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
I taught elementary school in a public school in south
central Los Angeles, Right, And I used to hear the
oldest teachers all the time talk about how you know,
kids today they don't want to they don't want to read.
Speaker 6 (23:58):
They don't want to read, they don't want to read.
Speaker 5 (23:59):
But it always struck me as interesting that the same
group of kids who you say aren't interested in literacy, right,
And other people have made this point too, the same
group of kids who say they're not you're not when
you say they're not interested in literacy. When that hot
new album drops, Yes, right, the hot new album drops
on Wednesday, on Saturday, they got all the lyrics memorized.
Speaker 6 (24:20):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (24:21):
Right, So the same group of people that you don't
think is interested in literacy, right, are sitting down with
you know, back in my day it was CDs, right,
or sitting down and listening to and digesting these words, right,
digesting these metaphors and these alliteration, digesting all of the stuff, right,
whether it's rap lyrics or song lyrics or whatever. And
we'll be able to tell you what these lyrics mean,
(24:42):
and we'll be able to make connections. If this is
somebody's third album, right, we'll be able. And you ask
them about this particular artist's narrative arc or creative arc,
they'll be like, oh, well, yeah, well, you know, Jay's
third album is different from the second album.
Speaker 6 (24:56):
And then kanye Is second album.
Speaker 5 (24:59):
Is different from his first album, is different from and
so and so. Right, So it's like, wait a minute,
I thought y'all said that these kids aren't interested.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
In literacy, and you know, you what you make me
think about because I think the whole world was interested
in Kendrick Lamar and Drake.
Speaker 6 (25:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
I think they pushed.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
All of us not just to listen to their music,
but to read.
Speaker 6 (25:19):
Yeah. Right.
Speaker 5 (25:20):
So again, the point here is we've got to be
very careful about making assessments about people's interest in literacy,
people's investment in literacy.
Speaker 6 (25:32):
We've got to figure out where people are. Right. And
now this is not to say that we don't have problems.
We do. We've got sue, we've got some serious challenges.
Speaker 5 (25:40):
Yeah, right, but we've got to I think we've got
to take a three hundred and sixty.
Speaker 6 (25:42):
Degree approach to these challenges. Right.
Speaker 5 (25:45):
We're running around telling people and it's like one of
the panelists that earlier today, Right, we're running around telling people,
you work hard, to play by the rules, going to school,
you'll live happily ever after.
Speaker 6 (25:53):
Now, what happens when that's not true anymore?
Speaker 5 (25:56):
And you know, and we're talking, you know, and we
can't have these conversass as if that just stopped being
true in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 6 (26:05):
This has been.
Speaker 5 (26:05):
True for generations of poor and working class black people
who had parents and grandparents go to school right and
not be able to advance in society. Right, Yes, I
got my high school diploma, Yes I did the thing right,
and I'm still and i'm and I'm still a laborer.
Speaker 6 (26:25):
Right.
Speaker 5 (26:26):
And so that's the other conversation we have to have, right,
is what happens when when the conventional wisdom around education
just doesn't apply anymore, right with regard to all of
the things we say about education and what all of
the things we say that education can do or can
provide for people.
Speaker 6 (26:46):
So we've got to be really clear.
Speaker 5 (26:47):
And really honest about that as well. We want people
to we want people to be literate. Why why do we.
Speaker 6 (26:55):
Want people to be literate?
Speaker 5 (26:56):
Yes, of course I agree with that, right, But do
we ever tell do we ever have that conversation around
why this is important, Around why it's important for you
above and beyond your job, above and beyond your ability
to go make somebody else some money, above and beyond
the ability for you to open up a business, which
is great, do your thing, right, But why is literacy important?
Speaker 6 (27:19):
It's crucial? Right?
Speaker 5 (27:20):
And this isn't our opportunity to have these conversations right
about that link between literacy and liberation? Right? This is
something that for the vast majority of time that black
folk have lived in this country, it was against the
law for us to learn how.
Speaker 6 (27:34):
To read and write. We would be murdered for that.
Speaker 5 (27:39):
There's a reason for that, and there's also a reason
why this whole literacy thing is so hard to come
by right. One of the things I alluded to in
my comments on the stage right is you know, literacy
and illiteracy both have histories.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Yes, you said.
Speaker 5 (27:55):
And just like there is an investment in literacy, there
was also a deep investment in illiteracy.
Speaker 6 (28:00):
See.
Speaker 5 (28:01):
Wow, how well trained do I need you to be
for you to come and engage in this manual labor
job making seven fifty five.
Speaker 6 (28:07):
An hour or whatever? I'm not How pressed.
Speaker 5 (28:11):
Am I that you graduated from high school when all
I need is your labor? How pressed am I about that?
Speaker 6 (28:19):
Am I really that pressed about that?
Speaker 5 (28:20):
Am I really that concerned about you getting a quality
education when I just need you to perform this labor
for ten hours a day, for no wage, for low
wages and no benefits.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
You're getting to what doctor Billings said about freeing your mind.
Speaker 5 (28:34):
Yeah right, I mean this is this is also this
is the dangerous nature of literacy, the dangerous nature of education.
I mean, this is why, this is why, this is
one of the reasons why it was against the law. Right.
Frederick Douglas is a great example of this. When you
read Frederick Douglas's narrative, he talks about learning, teaching, himself
to read. And once he's able to read, he's able
to read these things and whole worlds open up in
his mind.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Wow, that's powerful.
Speaker 6 (28:56):
The whole worlds of liberatory possibility.
Speaker 5 (28:59):
What is it you mean if I was free, I
could go do this, I could go do that, I
could go I could live, I could be here, I
could be there. These are the things I could be
engaged in if I was free. Oh, I'll take more, Yes, please,
I'll take some of that.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Well, Doctor Charles McKinney. Y'all listen, we got to wrap
this conversation up. But I'm telling you Rose College, y'all
got something special over there.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
But thank you for stopping and having a conversation with me.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
You'll have to come back and by the station and
let's have this conversation some more.
Speaker 6 (29:31):
Call me when you need me. Happy to do it.
Speaker 5 (29:33):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Okay, it's the pulse.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
We're keeping our fingertips on the pulse of our community.
I'm stormy, God bless you have a great week. We'll
see you next time.
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