Dr. L.LaSimba Gray Jr.

Out of Bounds The History of African Americans and Golf in Memphis is the new book by Dr. L. LaSimba Gray Jr., he talks about it on The Bev Johnson Show on WDIA Radio.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Your good Will and good Time Stationten seventy w d I A listen on
the free iHeart Radio app for allyour music radio and podcasts. Free Never
Sound is so good with a hardand soul of Memphis. Ten seventy w
d I A Memphis beIN Show,Bell chomping, Memphis talking and home away.

(00:24):
Help on you go, you go, don't getting ready in time?
Just show jo Let's go bellin Weyou make gord By here wrong? You
d listen to what to say?You know it's time of the Bell Show,

(00:52):
Time of the Bell Show. Let'sgo and good afternoon and welcome back

(02:16):
tod I a the Bev Johnson Show. I'm Bev. It is indeed a
pleasure to have you with us onceagain on this Monday, July one.
Y'all twenty twenty four, enjoyed thisfabulous day to day. What I just
said, We're gonna learn some AfricanAmerican history. No, doctor Harper's not

(02:36):
here, but we have somebody elsewe can talk about. You know what
We're gonna talk about something I've nevertalked about on this show. Of the
thirty seven years I've been doing thisshow, I never talked about this.
Well, first of all, letme say my guest is the legendary.
He's a legend. Yeah, you'rea legend. You're a legend. And

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Pastor Marritus of News Artists Missionary BaptistChurch, but he is the doctor l
the Sylpha Gray Junior. Good afternoon, doctor Gray. How are you?
God afternoon, Bev, and thankyou for having me. You are so
welcome. How you been doing?Been doing well. I'm just trying to
document some of this great history we'reabout to lose, and Beva, we

(03:23):
don't write it down, We're gonnalose it to Alzheimer's and dementia, right
and the passing of individuals who madeand who know this history. So that's
my last commitment to make sure wedocument this great, great history. I
know, doctor Gray, when youwere the pastor at News Artists that you
were responsibul you all have a historyroom or museum, museum, museum,

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it's like a museum. And PastorHarrington, my successor, has carried on
in the most beautiful way that ministryof documenting and celebrating our history. So
you go out to the New Startistsand called him and as a tour you
can take a tour. Oh goodas a museum, you know, you
know that. I may remember,Bev, I tried to start the African
American Museum of Memphis, and wedidn't get that off the ground. We

(04:11):
were trying to get it downtown andthat didn't happen. So I went on
and set it up at the NewStardage. I love it. So the
people can go and absolutely daycares,elementary schools come all the time. Okay,
yeah, I didn't know that.Fantastic. Oh good, good,
Well you are here today because youare an author. Thank you. When

(04:34):
you start writing books. Well,this is my third book. What Yeah.
The first book I wrote was onthe Deacons for Defense and Justice out
of Bogoluosa, Louisiana. These wereAfrican American men who armed themselves and used
their military training to protect their communityin the Civil Rights era from the klu

(04:54):
Klux Klan. And then the nextbook I wrote was The Medial Officers,
The Memphis, The Blues and BillStreet, where we traced the beginning of
the Blues all the way up toMemphis and development of Memphis from a river
bluff all the way up to whereit is now, and the history of
African Americans in Memphis, the mostinclusive document on our history in Memphis.

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And I did that in working withStrickland to deal with the bicentennial eighteen nineteen
to twenty nineteen and Robert R.Church. You know, when I went
to the City Commission celebrating the bicentennial and they were not going to celebrate
Robert Church. I said, youcan't have a celebration without Robert Church,
right until we got Mayor strictly saidlet's do it. So we did it.

(05:41):
And that was the beginning of myinterest in that history. Wow,
today I didn't know you had twobooks, but yeah, yeah, this
is the third one, the third. But today you have a new book
came out last week and it's aboutgolf. About golf, you know,
doctor Gray, I've never talked aboutgolf on this show. Really, Bill,
we got to get you on thedriving range and get a golf club.

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All that rich history in Orange Mound, We got to get you out
there. Charles Hudson would teach youand all them guys around Orange Mound.
See Orange Mound was the feet ofa caddies for the Memphis Country Club,
and all of our golfers got startedout as caddies. Wow, I'm a

(06:23):
former caddy. Wow. I caddiedat wind Dyke Country Club out way out
of Winchester. At that time,it seemed that it was so far away,
right, But we made money.We didn't go to learn God,
we went to make money. That'sright, that's right. So doctor Gray's
new book is called out of Bounds, The History of African Americans and Golf

(06:47):
in Memphis. In Memphis, talkabout that out of bounds. Out of
bounds, that's one of the worstpenalties you can have in golf. Really,
if you hit the ball out ofbounds, uh huh, you not
only lose a stroke, but youlose the distance as well. So the
next shot you got to hit itfrom the same place. You're not hitting
a second shot, you're hitting athird shot. So you're greatly penalized for

(07:08):
being out of bound. But AfricanAmerican, for over sixty years, we
were considered out of bounds. Wecouldn't play in the country clubs and we
couldn't play on the public courses forsixty plus years. Wow. Wild,
I people don't realize that. No, I didn't know. In nineteen sixty
two, under what was called agradual plan of desegregation. Mister Kleophus Hudson

(07:30):
Senior was the first African American totee off at Pine Hill golf Course.
And then the plan was to doa gradual desegregation rather than all of a
sudden desegregate based on the nineteen fiftyfourth Supreme Court decision Brown versus Board of
Education. So everything was slowly movingtoward desegregation, and so the golfers kept

(07:54):
pushing, why can't we play atpine Hill, Why can't we play at
Ottoman? Why can't we play atGalloway. So that pressure was building up,
and so they got the NAACP involved. Listen to this bell, Okay,
The NAACP said that they thought moneycould be better spent and resources could
be better spent fighting desegregation of lunchcounters and schools and a certain etcetera,

(08:20):
etcetera hotels. But what's his nameof James Meridith said that if you left
a golf standing, you still havethe citadel of white supremacy. So he
said, we got to get ridof that because segregation anywhere is a threat
to desegregation everywhere. So they tookon the golf courses in nineteen sixty doctor

(08:43):
Ike Watson. Some of you mightremember doctor Ike Watson. Doctor Ike Watson
was a golfer and who detested thefact that he could not play at the
other courses in Memphis, although hepaid taxes, as all of us paid
taxes, but we couldn't play atthose courses. So he took the to
federal court and he lost. Inthe Federal court judge board ruled that Memphis

(09:05):
was not prepared to immediately desegregate becauseof riots and racial tension and all that
kind of stuff. But he lostany appeal to the Sixth Circuit Court Appeal
of Appeals, and he lost atthat court level. And then aw Willis,
the late attorney A. W.Willis file They went on to file

(09:26):
the lawsuit to the Supreme Court,and the Supreme Court took the case and
then ruled in nineteen sixty three thatMemphis had no justification for delaying the desegregation
of the golf courses and other publicfacilities. See there were parks we couldn't
even go in. You know what, Doctor, I'm so I'm so glad
you're talking about this because when Ithink about and I said this last week

(09:48):
that some of our folks. Youknow, we have amnesia, don't we.
We forget about what our ancestors hadto go through. And some folk
are glad about it. Yes,other folk glas that we have forgotten nobody
right, But we got to keepthis history alive. Yeah. So when
I'm looking at I'm just looking atthe table of contents, and you start

(10:09):
with your book, you talk aboutthe fourteenth Amendment. Yes, why did
you start with that? Well?See, the fourteenth Amendment is what the
NAACP used as its primary source.That that was no justification for delaying desegregation,
and that fourteenth Amendment nullified the rulingof Plus versus Ferguson said there was

(10:33):
nothing, no right an African Americanhad that had to be respected by white
person. And so the fourteenth Amendmentnullified that decision. Dred Scott decision,
said, yeah, dretch Scott decision. So what happens the fourteenth of men?
If you read that, okay,it says anybody born in this country
has every right anybody else has.And so the lawyers for the NAACPU that

(10:58):
when they went into court to knockdown the segregation that had gone on for
for years and many many years afterwe had come out of slavery. Yeah.
Then you talk about what I can'twait to read this that and thank
you for my copy? You gotyour sign copy. He signed my signed
copy, y'all. Yeah. Andthen you talk about golf comes to America.

(11:22):
Yes, GoF comes to America inthe in the in the migratory era
where the Europeans were coming to Memphmean to America. Uh. And they
came in droves. And here's whatwas important about that. They came while
their ethnicity, their culture were allin place. They didn't lose theirs like
we did. We had ours destroyed. But they came with their with their

(11:46):
culture in place. And and sothese are these guys who came from Ireland
and who came from those countries wherethey had GoF. They brought GoF with
them. Okay. But then,uh, they were some who came they
weren't looking for golf. They waslooking for cotton. Sophis, Memphis is
an ideal place. Memphis had thecotton, and Memphis had open fields.

(12:09):
See the open fields that had beenused to plant cotton and stuff like that.
Uh huh, Well, ideal forgolf courses. So they said,
we can build a golf course inMemphis with little costs because the field's already
cleared. And Pine Hill was atwo thousand acre plantation. Yes, it
was a two thousand acre plantation,Pine Hill. Pine Hill owned by William

(12:33):
Person. Now, his wife hada thing about pine trees and she started
missing the pine trees of the Carolinas, and so she had him to import
pine trees from the Carolinas. Andthat's why sprinkled throughout the golf course pine
Hill, pine pine trees, andthat's where the name came from. Pine
Hill golf Course. So they cometo America and then they come bringing this

(12:58):
golf to Memphis. Now, it'sinteresting how goth started golf. Yeah,
came out of the bottom of shepherdsin the field watching over their sheep and
goats, and they took sticks andbegan hitting rocks. Then competition developed.
But when the competition moved from thepasture land to the streets of Edinburgh and
Scotland places like that, then peoplestarted to watch and then it became a

(13:22):
competitive sport. And then the rockswere replaced with golf balls, and then
the holes in the street were replacedwith pastor on the pasture land where they
actually built golf courses. And sowhen that came to Memphis, you had
a guy named Eddrington eighteen ninety sixwho had been to Scotland and who came

(13:45):
back and who wanted to bring thatgame to America into Memphis, and so
he formed the Memphis Country Club.And the Memphis Country Club was the premier
place for the elite to play golf. So then when the city created the
park system, then it created OvertonPark, which was the golf course for

(14:05):
the public. So you had theelite Caucasian people and the average citizen of
the day with access to GoF butwe could not play at either one.
So at Memphis Country Club, wewere caddies, we were chefs, We
cleaned the building, we cleaned thegreen, kept the greens. Cutting that
kind of thing help him to buildgolf courses, but we could not play

(14:28):
golf. So then they started lettingcaddies play on Mondays, and the caddies,
some of and many of the caddiesbegan to play so well that they
could beat any pro that they werecaddying for, and so all kinds of
little games up around that idea.But Charlie Wilson of News artists. Was
one of those caddies could beat couldbeat the pros at Chickasaw Country Club and

(14:54):
the man he cated forward off andtell another opponent, Charlie Wilson can beat
you. So you got to beout your mind, yeller, Wilson can't
beat me. Shallow Wilson is acaddy and probably call me the in word
too, but probably, but wasCharlie could beat him, and it was
amazing thing. On Monday, alittle competition started. The bets start to
go that he could beat he couldn'tbeat it. You know. That's how

(15:16):
Lee Elder got started. No,I didn't because I was gonna ask you,
yeah to Gray. So when wetalk about African Americans getting into the
sport of golf, so are yousaying basically they started off as caddies and
looking at those exactly? Okay,exactly. And there's one golfer in Memphis
who is unique and one of thebest golfers in Memphis is Thumon Glass.

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He never was a caddy, buthe would go and stand at the fence
and watch the colonial golfers professionals play, and he'd watch him swing, but
they'd be doing and putting and thenhe'd go and practice is he'd practice sometimes
into the dog, but he'd goand watch and then go and try to
duplicate. But they would do it. And Thurmo Glass won his first golf

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tournament while Memphis was totally segregated innineteen sixty two at to Full of golf
course. So that's a long history. We started out as caddies, yeah,
but we as we emerged as thetop golfers in the city of Memphis,
amateurs, and not many times werethey allowed to play with and compete
with the pros. Probably could havebeaten many of them as well. Probably

(16:25):
could have. Yeah. So whenyou think about well, me, when
I used to think about golf,I didn't think that African Americans were playing
golf. The guys, the menwere playing golf. I don't know why
I thought that, because I'm nota golf person. Well, you'd be

(16:47):
after to read that book. Youwill, I think, because this history
you're giving me now, Oh mygoodness, yeah, you will be after
you read this book. The thingis in your community was a guy named
Dollas Sanders the Dollar Well, yeah, and I remember my mother and my
grandmother talk about him. Yeah,he was a legend. Now, he
was probably the first African American toemerge from that Caddy academy into play golf

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and to league God. He playedgolf until he was in his nineties.
What and would shoot in the seventies. Wow, he was a master for
God. And then he trained aguy named Bubba Jetter Robert Bubba Jedto was
the first to turn pro from Memphisand go on the pro tour of the
United Golfers Association Tour. And hemade his living playing golf. And according

(17:36):
to Andrew Bryant, we called himBarb Bryant, Ba said he was a
magician with a golf club in hishand. Wow. And uh, you
know a lot of times in competition, guy said what did he hit?
He said, look in his bagand see what he got left? See
what iron did he use it?Well, he he got a four iron
in his hand. So they said, okay, we're gonna we're gonna follow
his suit. Then, uh,Bubba Jeta could dial that club down and

(18:00):
hid it like a seven nine,or dial up a seven nine and hit
like a fire iron. So theycouldn't You couldn't monitor and tell what club
is used by watching Bubba Jeeta.He was just that good and his skills
developed around that area because he hadlimited access to golf clubs, and most
of that caddies would get a clubfrom a guy that caddied for us.

(18:21):
Hey, charl to take this andplay with it. Let me know how
you like it. Well, hecouldn't get a full set, okay and
dollars. Saunders probably was the firstAfrican American to buy a full set of
golf clubs that he purchased from SearsRoebucket Company. Wow, I see why
why you told me that that thisthis book, it started these folks in
Orange Mound, Orange Mound, Yougot it right, Charles Hudson, whitn't

(18:45):
and your pastor who it was withthe what the bad boy? He's awesome,
He's awesome. He tells the storyof how they would caddy at Chickasaw
and when they got paid, theygo round to some to the thrift stores.
Now that's the terminology, he hused. Yeah, but we call him
second hand stores. Right. Theywould buy their clothes and take them straight

(19:07):
to the cleaners. And he saidthey would walk around in the neighborhood and
everybody knew they were caddies. Becausethey were the best dressed and best looking
men in the community. But theymade they made ends meet. They made
helped their families by supplementing their incomewith the money they made at the golf
course. Lonnie Latham is one whowas a high executive at the University of

(19:30):
Memphis. Herman Morris I mentioned earlierwith CEO of the MLG, and w
won the highest paid and highest positionin the city of Memphis that African Americans
have ever held. He started outas a caddy. You got Fred Jones.
Don't forget Fred Memphis. I didn'ttell you know. Fred plays golf

(19:52):
and an excellent golfer. He wasa scratch golfer, but he got started
at Memphis Country Club as a caddy. Wow, isn't it amazing? That
is amazing. Yeah, it isamazing. If you've just tuned in this
afternoon, we are talking with doctorL. Lacimba M. Gray Junior.
He has a new book out.The book is called Out of Bounds,

(20:17):
The History of African Americans and Golfin Memphis. We're talking about that.
I'm learning some good history. Ifyou have a question or two for him,
we invite you to call now ninezero one, five, three,
five, nine, three four twonine, zero one five three, five
nine three four two eight hundred fivezero three nine three four two eight three

(20:42):
three five three, five nine threefour two will get you in to us.
You're listening to Double You DIA.You're listening to Tennessee Radio Hall Bev
Johnson on w DAS. She's brandnew and receiving rave reviews. Informative and

(21:15):
enlightening and entertaining. It's the StormyExperience weekdays from three to seven pm on
the Heart and Soul of Memphis,ten to seventy w d IA. You're

(21:49):
listening to the Bev Johnson Show.Here's Bev Johnson and I'm talking this afternoon
with author doctor l Lasimba M.Gray Jr. His new book is called
Out of Bounds, The History ofAfrican Americans and Golf in Memphis. Doctor
Gray. We're going to our phonelines to talk to some of our listeners.

(22:12):
Hi. Cherer, Hi, howare you doing? I am just
well. I'm doing well. Challhow are you? I am just so
excited to hear of Pastor Gray.I know he's a former pastor, but
you know how it is with youbecause you always want Yeah, man,

(22:33):
I love your church and your museumas well when I went. But yet
I am so fascinated with this book. I am excited. Now where is
your book signing? Because I neededsome copies. And my boys used to
golf with First Tea. Oh youMemphis, Yes, so they know all
those guys and I too, andthey were great mentors to my sons.

(22:56):
I just love it. Well,you know First Tea started right here too,
So did you talk about that inthe book. It's in the book
Pine Hill. And there are twoAfrican Americans from Memphis on the PGA tour
now and they are graduates of thefirst t program started by Charles Hudson.
Awesome. Yeah. Charles Hudson ishonored in the book because he had the

(23:17):
Pine Hill Clubhouse named after him inhonor of his contribution and his father's contribution.
So that's history your boys need togo see. I never knew Pine
Hill. We used to be aplantation of two thousand acres. Wo wow,
my boy's gonna find it so fascinated. So where's your book sign so
I can bring them. I'll beat News Artists on the second Sunday in

(23:41):
July. I'll be there to signbooks. But you can go buy the
church and get a copy of thebook. Now you can go by Miles
bookstore. I want them to meetyou and take a picture here. Yeah,
I'll be there second Sunday and behappy to sign a book. We
started at nine point thirty and we'llprobably go until about two o'clock signing book.
Okay, so no service, thisis after the service, after services.

(24:03):
Yeah, okay, okay, you'retrying to get us in the service.
And hear that, hear that youngPastor Harrington preach. Yes, yes,
indeed, I mean you don't know. I mean, I mean and
this is automatically in the Uh theysaid in the library, there's a Memphis
room. So this is already inthe Memphis room. I sown. Yeah,
copies have filed one copy with theMemphis room. And the Memphis room

(24:27):
was such a support, a greatsupport and putting the information together and getting
photos and what have you. ButWill Keyes, who is the manager of
Pine Hill, is also a graduateof First Team under Charles Hudson and uh
Calvinson and Melville Vincent. We knowcal and Melbourne. Yeah they are I'm

(24:48):
sorry that's just said in Turkey.Yeah, yeah, they put it all
together. Charlie Wilson was with thatgroup. But it's a tremendous service.
And you know, of all thecourses in Memphis, prestigious golf courses,
he never came to Memphis except tocome for Charles Hudson. Tiger Woods,
Wow, came to Memphis to teachyoung African Americans the basics of golf.

(25:11):
And these young people are still pursuingthat talent because Tiger Woods inspired them and
they are now a good example ofwhat teaching can do. And so your
young men, it's two. Howmany young men do you have any your
family? Two? You have tomy oldest one. He started the year

(25:33):
Tiger Woods came to Memphis. Hestarted up in nineteen well, no,
it was two thousand and something earlyon maybe when he came to Memphis that
year. Wow. And you don'tknow that is I mean, you don't
know. And we tried to wina trip to Ireland one year when they
were giving that away so that theycan play with some you know, at

(25:56):
their original golf course and all thatstuff. That's fabulous. Well you go
there, get that get that bookfrom doctor Gray. The second Sunday in
July, I sure will thank youso much. Thank you Cheryl. Bye
bye, doctor Gray. Before Igo to the next caller, you said,
and also that people can find yourbook where at Miles Bookstore on Elvis

(26:17):
Presley. Let's just see a meanbookstore right then you the regular Tennessee regular
bookstore on Elvis Presley as well.You'll be able to get the book there,
Illing, et cetera on Bill Street. You able to get it there,
and most certainly you'd be able toget it that new Statist Baptist Church.
We're trying to get some other outlets, yes, and we'll let the
public noise soon to get those established. It sounds good. Going back to

(26:38):
our phone line to talk to Chester. Hih, Chester, Hi, bebe
how you doing today? I'm doingwell in you Chester? All right?
Hi doctor Gray, Hello, howare you Chester? I'm doing good.
I just enjoying you talking about thosepioneers, uh that played god Therm and
Glass was one of my co workers. We worked together thirty years at Cloud

(27:03):
and he beat everybody that comes hisway out there. He would and wouldn't
holland wouldn't holler. Said ten wordsyou wanted to say two words, I
wouldn't say two words. But II'm I'm I'm in the Gray family.
I'm Matthews and Gray. You you'rein my family. Wonderful good to know

(27:25):
because yeah, Thurman Gray is myfirst cousin, Herman and Thurmoy. Yeah,
we know. That's why I said, so I leave that that we're
in the family. But I justhad to call in and and and because
you you're bringing us some good history. Yes, because people don't talk about
God too much. You know.No, it ain't many great, It

(27:48):
wasn't any great. But Thurman Ihave to say he was a great one.
Oh fantastic. Still is still himlast week and he last said at
the morning he was on his waytill the God goes there and he will
live a long time doing that,right right. Well, thanks for calling,

(28:10):
Thank you, Thank you Chester,Bye bye bye bye bye. W
D I a Prince of the Charlessay my name Sam. How you doing
law I'm doing well, Prince andyourself. I'm on the top, Chelf.
I hope you and mister Gray hada great weekend. You oh great?
Hey, uh set afternoon for yourcall list and for your listeners.

(28:33):
Best mister Gray. I was thelady who just called previous to The person
who just called it was then ninetyseven when he visited Pine Hill along with
his father, Earl George. Well, yeah, so it's absolutely I remember
that day when it happened. Asa matter of fact, mister Gray,
how they have remodeled Pine Hill rightnow is wonderful. Uh, the new

(29:00):
you know that they have put there. Uh have you been there yet?
They're renovated. Yeah, renovated.I've been there several times. And we
can thank Councilwoman Washington from Orange Mountainarea and uh uh, Mayor Jim Yeah,
we called it. Otis Higgs calledit Orange Mountain. Yeah, he
did, he did. And MayorJim Strickland, for you know, they've

(29:21):
been had been renovating golf courses allover the city and left Pine Hills standing.
We asked for a new clubhouse twentyyears ago. It was just ridiculous
what that clubhouse had deteriorated into.And so Jim Strickland in his last term,
put in big dollars to make itwhat it is today, and it
is second to none, and we'reproud of that. It's beautiful. If

(29:45):
you come down Mallory and look overthere to you depend on the direction of
going. There's a beautiful thenery andthey still working on it right now.
And every time when I passed five, so they always have a lot of
people of cards there waiting to playon that golf course. Oh yeah,
it's it's it's one of the mostchallenging golf courses and now with the new
layout, it's one of the realchallenges in local public golf. But think

(30:08):
about this is name in honor oftwo African Americans who were foundational to African
Americans participating in golf. That's KlophusHudson Senior and Charles Hudson wonderful. My
question is this, Uh, mistergreat, And I do watch golf,
but I don't watch it as much. I mean, during the period that

(30:29):
Tiger Woods was playing, I thinkI was glued to the television simply because
he had an African American playing inthe golf. Normally you would see typical
white man plans and not taking awayfrom them, they they're great too,
But when Tiger Woods stepped into thescene and start playing golf, people just
started just growing themselves, especially Ithink in an African African American community,

(30:52):
because they wanted to see a youngblack male uh, succeed And he did
it like it was nobody's business,right, He just succeed He succeeded,
succeeded. I think he won fivegreen jackets. He was without peers in
his prime. Tiger on a brokenleg won the US Open by a tremendous

(31:15):
margin. And they discovered at theend and round that he had really fractured
his leg. But he would notquit. He kept on playing. And
that's the kind of inspiration that weneed in life. You know, you're
gonna have some accidents, but don'tquit. Yeah, and Tiger taught us
that. Okay, the question I'mwant to ask you. I watched a
lot of movies and I don't knowif you remember the movie called Baga Band.

(31:37):
Was that remotely based on a blackCaddy in history? Yes, they
they said that was there was alegend that that that man could train a
gofer, and he had in thatmovie. As you remember, he got
with that young man, stuck withhim and kept feeding them information and teaching
him. And the big thing hetaught him was patience. And that's the

(31:59):
same thing that Tiger Wood's father taughthim. Patience. You may make a
mistake, but don't give up thewhole game because of one mistake, and
Tiger would come back sometimes three andfour strokes down and win by five or
six strokes. That's kind of playerTiger Woods. And then some people started
raising questions about Tiger. He can'the didn't know how to lose gracefully.

(32:20):
Well, his daddy never taught himto lose. His dad always taught him
to win. So that was Tiger'sproblem. He never was taught to lose.
And so today Tiger Woods has hasopened the door, and let's support
our two young men. Uh yougot Greg Odham Jr. And you got
JP Thornton. They're still out thereand we're pushing now for some young ladies

(32:45):
to come on. And I thinkwith with with will Keys at pine Hill,
we can make that happen. Okay, Well, I appreciate. I
just wanted to know that what BegBega Bands I think, yes, that's
his name, was actually a realperson. And if so, you don't
hear too much about the black culturein golf or the primarily during that period

(33:07):
was a white game. Let's justcall it what it is. In that
period, that's exactly what I'm ahead. It was a white game. Play.
It was a white game for whitepeople, for prestieches, white people
who had money or that type ofthing. But this guy was if bev
you ever watched the movie Will Smithplays in it, and the guy had
like a laser eye for putting theball in the cups before to the movie

(33:31):
and domess the case. The guywas. He was ahead of his time.
And hey, I commend him.I always take it to allow me
to speak. I want you andthat's the great to have a beautiful black
estate and cool day. How aboutthat? Thank you you too, Thank
you friends, Thank you. WD I a chaplain commons? Hello,
Bell? How are you chaplain commings? Yes? Great? And doctor Greg

(33:53):
hello, how are you all right? I'm a I'm a good friend of
uh you know the DJ. Andyou mentioned golf and I was thinking about
that. Yes, a lot ofretired military specialists and then they played golf
all over the world and when theycame home, they're very quiet, and
the initiative that were put forth,you know, were very quietly. For

(34:15):
the money, terrible of whatever wehad to do, but we did it
very quietly. But we had somegreat golfers. But they learned how to
golf in Ireland and other places wehad basis, Yeah, and the one
in the Long Upore in Philippines.He is beautiful. It is and it's
right. We did anybody in theworld. You know. Ted Rose was
one of those Ted Rose out ofout of Nashville was one of those golfers

(34:38):
who on foreign courses he's allowed toplay and he was highly competitive. But
you know the basic Matchell had thegolf course. Yeah, people don't realize
that. But anyway, I justwanted to bring it up in h I
thought about that. I said,my goodness, wasn't even thinking about God.

(34:58):
I only had one eye basically,because you can't play God unless you
got twenty twenty vision very well andboth vibes, you know, so I
can't just watch him. So Ios got exemm. Retired Navy Matthew Chief.
He was, Oh, he wassomething kind of godfer you live right
here in Memphis, and he alsoretired from the state. I think something
else, but yeah, I willtell them. And we were talking about

(35:20):
that not too long ago, howyou loved the God, and so I
commanded, what's going on now withthe gold? Bring up. The more
more things happened with our young peoplethe more at less time they have some
furnishness and get, you know,get that's where I'm looking at me.
I'm a retired navy there myself,and so I just thank God for what
you're doing. Not hey man,I'm just I'm just great, you know.

(35:43):
Thank you, doctor Greg, thankyou so much, thank you,
chapping comings, Bye bye doctor Great. When did you get interested in golf?
Nineteen sixty three? I had agood friend that the book is dedicated
to, Albert Spooky Flowers. AlbertFlowers was a young man who worked all
the time. We never did seeSpooky without job, and he always had

(36:06):
money. So one day he said, LEO, get ready, We're going
to the golf course. I saidthis early in the morning, and he
said, yeah, come on,meet up on the corner. So I
went to the corner. We wentup to the airways and Lamar and we
hitched tight. We were hitchhiking allthe way out to Lamar and Winchester,
and then we hitch tike up tothe wind Dyke Country Club. Albert Flowers

(36:29):
was the brother that loved his family, loved to make money, always made
money. So he taught me howto be a golfer, And in that
process I became addicted the other thing, bab. When we couldn't play on
public courses, we built sandlot courses, and most neighborhoods where caddies lived,
you would find a sandlot golf coursein our neighborhood. It was on Ball

(36:51):
Road, and right there at Ballin spots where you could go there you
see sticks up in the air withrags on them, and that's where the
cat is with God and play golf. Charles Holme, Donald Holme, James
Fields, Arthur Gross, his brotherVernon Gross. They made we made our
own golf course. Uh, becausethey wouldn't let you all would make our

(37:14):
own golf course. The same thingwas out there where the home depot is
now on Popular Okay, those guysthrowing glass and the and the Berkan brothers
uh and their cousin David, theymade their own golf course. And Uh
Andrew Bryant, they made one behindthe Castela grocery store. The man let
him use the field and they justclear the ground and make their holes and

(37:35):
they play gold and they competed againsteach other. Yeah, we'll make a
way for the golf. Yeah.I always thought Doc Gray that that golf
was a boring sport. No,no, no, if you ever,
if you ever get started there everget start. Yeah. See number one,
the ball does not move. Yourobjective is to hit it in a

(37:55):
direction. And then your your objectis your goal, brother, is to
hit it into the hole with lessstrokes than you opponent. You may get
there in three and hit it inthe hole, make of four. Your
opponent may get there in five andthree putt he makes an eight. So
the competitions are stiff, and onceit gets in your system, you it's

(38:17):
hard to get out of your system. A lot of fun games and I've
always heard too, a lot ofbusiness deals have been made on the golf
court. On the golf court,Bethue, exactly right. Major corporations have
made transitional moves on the golf course. And the same with with us in
African America. You look at aguy like Fred Jones, see Fred Jones

(38:39):
when he was playing, he wasmanaging Isaac Hayes. Yeah, and Fred,
you know, had you meet guysand guys come in town. I
could bring somebody in town, Fredentertain them on the golf course. Entertainment
on the golf course was a partof business. So you learn how to
do that kind of stuff. Youknow. You take Willie Gregory with Nike.
Yeah, Willie Gregory has entertainment.Many has to come in business deals

(39:01):
and so business is done on thegolf course. And then James Meredith,
the pioneered old miss Right. Hesaid, had it not been for God,
he would have lost his mind.Wow, because that was his way
of relaxing. He said. Theprofessors who were sympathetic to his cause would
take him out sometimes on the collegein the university's golf course. He said,

(39:22):
there he was he'd learned to relaxplaying golf. So God has a
lot of values, but the mainthing it was a gate way for many
of our people into a successful lifeand becoming outstanding men and women. A
lot of women play God. Wehave talked about them yet. Yeah,

(39:43):
a lot of women who play God. Yeah, let's talk about the women
who play God? Are there?I know some women in Memphis who play
I don't know a lot of them. Ask who Lilian Crockett is Lilyan Crocket.
Lillian Crockett was the premier champion ofamateur golf in Memphis for five consegative
years. Black and white. Lillianhad come here and she married met and

(40:07):
married Pope McCrae. So now she'sLillian Crockett mccraid. But she came here
because of her job, and shediscovered Pine Hill, and she also met
Pope mccraie, and Poke became hercoach and her caddie and her husband.
And she dominated amateur golf in Memphisfor five consecative years in the public championship.

(40:29):
Wow. And I know other women. I think I have a few
church members who played play golf.I know one of my church members,
Judge Ernestine Hunter. Absolutely after JudgeHunt and Will Keyes. You have Amanda
Tibbs who was one of the topyoung ladies who now is the engineer in

(40:49):
Nashville. Bria Sanders who was amedical doctor who is a medical doctor.
Brother. All those young folk camethrough first Tea. They were touched by
Charles Hudson. And so when yougo back to that, back in this
sixty you had a group of womenwho was just fantastic around the golf course.
They added it was like adding spiceto a meal when you saw them

(41:12):
on the golf course. And thewomen were always friendly and class. Odessa
Dickens out of the Douglas golf Course. That's a fantastic lady. And she
was so good, bab she couldn'tplay with the women. She had to
play with the men. Wow,women wouldn't play with Odessall Dickens. I
love that. And then she taughtgolf for many many years at Pine Hill

(41:35):
and at T Fuller, but shestarted out at the Douglas Golf Course.
Douglas Golf Course was the first ninehole golf course for us when they put
down at Lincoln Park, a golfcourse with only seven holes. And plaus
Jones the man you just looked atby right exactly, that's why he came
from Douglas. What's his name?Dollas Sanders taught him, uh huh.

(41:59):
He was Alessander's caddy. Wow.And now now Players is one of the
few African Americans who did not cadyfor a Caucasian person. He cadded for
DoLS Sanders and Dollar taught him everythingthat he knew. And then when he
was ready to compete, Uh,Dollar would sponsored plaus On the United Golf
Association to him, and Players neverdisappointed him. Wow. Wow, he

(42:24):
was a trembuendous golf and a gentleman. That's what article on him is that
the gentleman who played golf. Imean, this is good history. I
can't wait to hear. I seeDoctor Gray, the Preference you did get.
It's written by James Merriton. JamesMerriton wrote the Preference here and Bill
Atkins, Yeah, I saw Isaw here. A matter of fact,

(42:45):
he was. He's in this morning, sitting in for stand this week.
Really yeah, oh what a joy? Yeah a joy. So I think
he's sitting in for stand. Butyou got some heavy hitters in it.
I can't wait to read this week. I want you to look a book
called the Green Book. You seethat you turn right by it. The
Green Book was a travel I've heardabout travelers, guy, you heard about

(43:07):
the Green Book? Yes, Iknow. People said why did they need
a Green Book? Well, theydidn't know where they could stop until the
Green Book could point out where youcould get gas right, where you could
get a meal, where you couldget lodging, because segregation was so stiff
and forced that they had to findand the Green Book was providing them where

(43:28):
to go get gas because you know, you just couldn't pull up by gas
right and then you couldn't stay inany motel now you could. In fact,
Joe Lewis, the world heavyweight boxingchampion, could not stay at the
Peabody. He had to stay atdoctor H. J. H. Johnson's
house on South Parkway. That's whatthat was his stop when he came to
Memphis. Wow. He came toplay golfers at Douglas and t O.
Full Of Golf Course, but hecould not stay in a hotel in the

(43:51):
city of Memphis. So he stayedat doctor H. H. Johnson's house
on South Parkway at Wilson Street.Wow. Man, that's a history.
I love this, and we don'twant to lose that bell. That's why
we don't want to lose I hadto get the book out and we're going
to do a second edition. Itsays so much more you couldn't put all

(44:12):
in one book book. And soI'm meeting with Thurnman and Donald Holmes.
Now, Donald Holmes was a teenagerwhen I came back in seventy three.
My first golf termamer that I puton the Memphis was nineteen seventy three at
T. O. Fuller. Donwas a little little teenager, okay,
and so E f. Gray cameto me getting ready to pass out of
trouble. He said, listen,Leo, you can't you can't give it,
Joe, you got to get donesomething. My nephew, I said,

(44:35):
okay, man. So we lookedat his score. He almost won
and he's been a premiere dominating golferever since. Wow. Donald Holmes talked
by his dad, Charles Holmes.Uh huh yeah, all in our neighbor.
That's oh Holiday Heights. That bell. You don't know about holiday heiks

(44:57):
I we had, we had ourown Santa La golf course. Okay,
yeah, So but that's how theguys who were caddies who wanted to play,
that's where they found a vacant lotthat bill a golf course. Yeah.
Yeah, and I see doctor Graythat Now a lot of young black
children are beginning to play golf.Absolutely. I love that. And Beverley,

(45:20):
we got to promote them. Yeah, I got to tell them you
can make a living in golf,playing golf or managing golf. Yeah.
Now, Will Keys is a youngman who could play not now. Judge
Hunt brought him to me one time. There was a tournament and we were
trying to get a forceman together.She said, said say let my nephew
play with you, and I said, I don't want no nephew playing.
We're trying to win, right,But he hit the best shot every hole.

(45:45):
Wow. We had to ride willKeys every hole. But Judge Haunts
said you got to let him play. We put him in there and he
was tremendous. But I did notknow he had been trained by first Tea
and will Keys could hit it evenas a youngster. So but point,
we got to get it started.Yes, keep it. I think,
to honor Charles Hutching, we needto go back and start these golfing academiests.

(46:07):
And like cal Vincent says, itteaches more than the game, it
teaches life. Yes, you'll beable to work with people. You be
ab to negotiate with people, communicatewith people, boggain with people, and
build with people because you can't doit by yourself. No, no,
and that that's positive. We'll getthis last call before doctor Gray gets out

(46:29):
of here. W D I ahigh caller. Hey, Hey Matthew Thomas,
I was a miss out junior golferand I heard you mentioned first team.
Yeah, and I just wanted tocall in and let y'all know,
it was miss Out Junior Golfers firstJunior golf, right, first team stud

(46:49):
Yeah, they studied the program thatthey took no nation wide, They studied
on miss Out Junior Golf. Thenthey got on the board and stole the
program from Charles Hudson. You exactlyright, You're exactly right. Rather than
expanding what Charles was trying to do, they tried to steal the program.
And that's what it went a nationwideas first tea but miss South Junior Golfer's

(47:10):
bell. It's what Charles Hudson hascredit for. He and then his childs.
Hudson didn't just push him through theprogram. He encouraged him to go
to college and go on to professionalschool. And I would venture to say
that Charlie Hudson has attended more collegegraduations and commitment program than anybody in Ephice
because wherever his kids graduated, guesswhat he and his wife were in attendance.

(47:32):
Yeah. I was one of thoseI want to arm all corn yeah
and uh yeah. And at theSWACK we were pretty much on every team.
Yeah, and so whenever we wentto meet, it was like a
reunion. Every tournament yeah. Yeah, but thank you for that team.
You got to know each other becauseall of us were on every team.

(47:57):
Well that that's why you need thatuh kind of coaching and teaching mentoring because
it teaches so many aspects of lifethat we desperately need. You still play,
Matthew a little bit. My backwon't let me play like okay,
but yeah after trying to twenty toohard that I got this tiger back.
Oh yeah yeah. Now listen,Matthew, tiger kept playing. Now he

(48:22):
had surgery too, so you don'twant that surgery. Thank you, Matthew.
You're welcome. Bye bye, doctorgrade. This has been fabulous today.
I mean, you have given mesome history that I didn't know about,
and especially the history of a communityI love Orange Mind where my folks

(48:45):
came out of. Oh yeah yeahyeah. May have turned to page ten,
okay, page ten? Who yousee that? Wait a minute minute,
page ten. Let me see whoI see here? That's the apostle
I got apostle Bill, I see, I see him smiling face was not

(49:05):
apostle. See see Bill Atkins andhis wife worked with Johnny Arnold to put
on the first sickle cell anemia golftournament. Yeah, that became the biggest
amateur golf ternaent for African Americans inthe Mid South. In the Mid South,
the highest numbers we reached in thesecond year was two hundred and five.
Can you imagine Bill walking out onthe golf course seeing two hundred and

(49:27):
five African Americans playing? God No, I can't imagine that. That happened
because Linda and Bill and Johnny Arnoldtook that golf tournament and promoted it,
and in fact, his wife usedto work at DA Missus Arnold. But
their motive he never told me this. I learned later on that the reason
that he was so involved with thistournament was his son, Twiffy, had

(49:52):
sickle cell anemia. Wow wow.And so that that's been a rich history.
But that golf tournament was made thebiggest in the best. Uh.
Then that's where the green jacket camein. Uh huh. And Don Holmes
has more green jackets than anybody elsein Memphis. Wow wow? Wow?
What? And and doctor Gray isis the golf course still open at full

(50:15):
apart? No? No, it'sit's okay. It's a nature's trail.
And uh, it's a sad,sad commentary and when when they closed the
park. Uh, Johnny Scott,who was then pro tried to initiate a
protest. But listen to this Bellareading, the protest never got any attraction.

(50:35):
Was that we had other options atthat time. We could play any
golf course in the city. Butwhen THEO. Fuller was organized and built,
we didn't have any other choices.And so, uh, the the
crucible of necessity is what drove thatgolf course to the into existence. But
also because the other options we didnot fight to save. And that was

(50:58):
a mistake. We should have savedt O. Fuller because of his historical
significant We should have Fallter saved it. Wow. Yeah, thank you for
telling me that, because I wasjust curious to see if that parks.
So, Doctor Gray, tell ourlisteners again where they can find out of
bounds the history of African Americans andgolf in Memphis, Ill et cetera,

(51:21):
Ill, etcetera. On Bill Street. You can find the Tennessee Regular Bookstore
on Elvis Presley, the Miles SeeingMe Church Bookstore on Elvis Presley. And
at you saw this Baptist church andI'm going to get Apostle Atkins to keep
some at his church. Yeah,because he's much a part of this.
Bill's been a part of my lifeand everything I've done, every trouble i've
gotten into, good trouble. Yeah, he was right there with me,

(51:44):
good trouble. Yeah. So we'regoing to be getting additional outlets and we'll
keep you informed. And then yousay you'll be at Newsard's the second second
sign book book sign and get yourbook, take a picture with them,
take a picture. That's right,signed a copy and take a picture.
Yeah, I love it, LL. Simple Gray, Thank you so
much. Thank you. You havereally blessed me today. I love it.

(52:06):
I'm glad you like it. Ido. I do. Yeah,
And you know you are welcome anytimeto share history with us. Well,
you know my good friend Roby Williams. Yeah, captain, so you need
to be on Bill Johnson. Isaid make it happen, and he has
done. He made it happen.Thank you. Rose is a great friend.
Yeah, Hey you, thank youmy friend brother. I would say

(52:27):
thank you, doctor Greg, Thankyou so much, Bell, Thank you
callers, thank you listeners for joiningus this day on the BEV Johnson Show.
We do we really do appreciate you. So until tomorrow, please be
safe, keep a cool head,y'all, and don't let anyone steal your
joy. Until tomorrow, I'm BevJohnson, and y'all keep the faith.

(52:58):
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