April 30, 2025 • 46 mins
The Memphis Public Library is bringing back Bookstock says Adult Services Manager Wang Ying Glasgow with Author Professor Daneil Kiel on The Bev Johnson Show on WDIA Radio.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Memphis probably presents the Bev Johnson Show.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Let me say bath.
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Me first, let me say she's gone Memphis. Okay, no
matter of the problem, she can have you, so all
(00:32):
the phono.
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Norma on your mind. She understand to be ding in
the hair by challing you to just keep them fing.
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Went around picking up the chopin show betting Gay Heavy.
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You can hear every day you need please well bell
got me a missed king. Good morning, good morning, good morning,
(01:48):
and welcome into w d i A The Bev Johnson Show.
It is indeed a pleasure to have you with us
once again on this Wednesday hump Day, April thirty, of
the last day in April twenty twenty five. Enjoy this
fabulous day to day. Get ready put your ears on
(02:10):
as we share the good news. First, we'll be talking
with our folks from the Memphis Public Library to see
what's going on in the library. Second hour, we will
talk mental health and we'll tell you more about that.
So stick and state for that. When it's your turn
to talk, you know you can. All you need to
(02:31):
do is dieal these numbers nine zero one five three
five nine three four two nine zero one five three
five nine three four to two eight hundred five zero
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(02:54):
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me and if this day, this day, Wednesday, April thirtieth,
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(03:18):
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celebrating a birthday on this day. We say God, y'all
go out and celebrate your life. You better, You're better.
When we come back, we'll talk about what's going on
with the Memphis Public Libraries. Next with me Bev Johnson
(03:44):
on the Bev Johnson Show only on dob d i A.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
That's just a show the jup side with this talk.
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Home away, Help you go, you go so getting ready
in time show.
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LESCo will make your day by here Rodd.
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Listen to what to fay you nor with time of
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We are rocking and rolling on this Wednesday, Huck Day,
April thirtieth, twenty twenty five. Enjoyed this fabulous day today.
As I said earlier, my guests are in the studio.
(05:47):
Wanna welcome back. Who's no stranger to the Bev Johnson
show was swaying at Glasgow who is the Adult Services
manager with the Memphis Public Library. And as always we
got another guests, so she's gonna tell us about that.
But good to have you you Wang, How are you
very well?
Speaker 5 (06:07):
Thank you so much for having us back.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
You are so welcome. Welcome. We are getting ready or
you all are getting ready again for Bookstock.
Speaker 5 (06:18):
Yes, Bookstock Memphis Areas Assa's Festival will be on this Saturday,
May third, from eleven am to three pm at Benjamin L.
Hook Central Library on thirty thirty Poplar. And we have
so many, so many wonderful excited things going on for
(06:39):
that day, so mark on your calendar and come on
to Benjamin L. Hook Central Library on Saturday.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
So tell our listeners who have never attended Bookstock what
they are going to see.
Speaker 5 (06:54):
So they will definitely see sixty local authors. Each and
every one of them has written a book of their
story and their experience. They will have an exhibit. Each
author will have an exhibit and they can sell their
book and autograph their book and you can come and
talk to them and know about their story, learn about
(07:18):
their journey to getting their books published, and even get
their autographed books. And we will have two wonderful nationally
known New York Times bestselling authors as keinot speakers. W
One of them is Roxanne Gay and the other is
Shamichael Holmann. And Roxanne is the author of Hunger Bad Feminist,
(07:46):
and she is just such a wonderful author feminism, identity
and many issues that of concern of interest to women,
and she is We're so happy and excited to be
able to get her to come to Memphis, and many
(08:08):
thanks to the Memphis Library Foundation for sponsoring her trip
to Memphis. First time to Memphis.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (08:17):
And the other one is Shamichael Holman. Many of you
might know him. He used to be the manager of
Costi Branch Library and he's not working in DC in
the Urban Library Council, and he has written a book
called Meet Me at the Library, a Place to foster
(08:37):
social connection and promote democracy. So we are so excited
to bring our own Shamichael Holman back as one of
the keynote speakers.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
So waange one of the things that with bookstop and
as Shamichael Holman so one of our own. But basically
the authors that are going to be there, they're local.
Speaker 5 (08:59):
Yes, they are all local authors, sixty of them. And
the reason we have sixty is the our library lobby
areas can only accommodate sixty tables and with sixty authors,
so we have it to our full capacity. So that's
why every year we capped at sixty local authors. And
(09:21):
you never know, we always have a wait list, right.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Yeah, because because I hear that that, you know, people
try to get in, but the list is so long
because continuing people are writing books.
Speaker 5 (09:36):
Yes, and it's it's easier. They made it easier to
get to become a self published author. So every one
of us have story and they want to write it
down to hand it down, you know, as a legacy
to get your books published. And that's why every one
(09:56):
of these authors, once they get their books published, they
want to have an book signing event. So that's why
we do that on an annual basis at the Memphis
Puppet Library to showcase sixty authors collectively once a year.
And during the year, many times authors will call us
(10:17):
and they want to do their own We say no,
I'm sorry, we don't do the individual book signing, but
we have this annual event and they all love to
join and participate in this event. So once a year,
once year, once a year, and we have this annual
bookstock event and we always have a waitlist and we
(10:38):
get them on right.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
I know here this afternoon, you have brought one of
the authors here, and I am going to let you
have the pleasure of introducing this author to our listening audience.
Speaker 5 (10:51):
Yes, we are very pleased to have doctor Keil of
Universal Memphis Law School. And he has written a wonderful
book and I will let him tell you about it.
And he is a first time bookstock participant to join
in this event. So we are so excited to have
(11:12):
him here with us to promote his book. And you
will not be disappointed.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Well, welcome in, doctor Daniel Keel. How are you.
Speaker 6 (11:21):
I'm doing well. How are you?
Speaker 2 (11:22):
I'm hanging, brother, I'm hanging. So you're right in town,
the University of Memphis, right and at the Law Law School.
Speaker 6 (11:33):
Yep, downtown, downtown.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
How long you been there?
Speaker 6 (11:35):
I've been there seventeen years.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Get out of town.
Speaker 6 (11:40):
It's been a little while, yeah, yeah, and I can
measure it.
Speaker 7 (11:43):
My son is sixteen years old, and I remember grading
the exams the very first year, right right when he
was born. Wow.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Wow wow. So you have written this book, and y'all
it is called the Transition in terms briding justice from
Thirdgood Marshall to Clarence Thomas. Wow wow. Just when you
handed me this book and I saw the two going like,
(12:11):
oh boy, what is this the about? A little bit
about it? Sure, So before you did, before you tell
me a little bit why did you decide to write this?
Speaker 7 (12:21):
So my research specialty is primarily race and schools, so
education law and the combination of education law and constitutional law.
Speaker 6 (12:32):
And I teach a course.
Speaker 7 (12:33):
I've taught it for now seventeen years and it's called
Education and Civil Rights, and we sort of trace the
history of legal cases where people are trying to access
equitable education and educational opportunities.
Speaker 6 (12:48):
And obviously.
Speaker 7 (12:50):
That a lot of that work is the work of
Thurgood Marshall. And so we're tracing Thurgod Marshall's work as
a lawyer, and then we, you know, end up reading
some of Thurgood Marshal's opinions as a Supreme Court justice,
And because of the timing of the course, sometimes we
end up pairing. You know, I'll be teaching one case
(13:11):
from nineteen seventy four, where Thurgood Marshall has written in
another case from nineteen ninety five where Clarence Thomas has
a lot of things to say about his educational experience
and the way that the law affects that. And I
just when you juxtapose the opinions, you know, the things
that the justices have written right next to one another,
(13:32):
you realize how they're kind of participating in a long
form conversation about how best to achieve educational opportunity in
this country. And so they have such different perspectives on it,
but they both are informed by their own experiences. And
my students always reacted to the pairing of the two
(13:53):
of them. And so, like I said, I've been teaching
the class for quite a while, but at some point
I said, you know what, I think that there's enough
here beyond just you know, one or two days of class.
There's enough here to really tell their stories both about
their educational upbringings and how those connect to sort of
(14:13):
broader questions about schooling in America, about race in America,
about democracy in America, and the meaning of the Constitution.
So that's kind of the overall summary of of of
what's in there.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Wow, you know when you when you talk about doctor Keel,
the the Constitution were messing it up. Now we not
only say we the folks in DC they they don't
get it or what is it? Yeah, I mean, it's
(14:47):
just they're not going by the constitution. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (14:51):
I've been I teach constitutional law in the spring semester.
My students right now are preparing for their exams, okay,
and it's been a challenging semester to teach the course
because there's a lot of flux and I think we're
seeing a lot of pushing on the edges of what
the Constitution will tolerate. And one thing that I tell
(15:12):
my students, you know, because I think people come in
and they think the Constitution has a definitive answer about
this and a definitive answer about that, and it's really
not that long of a document and it doesn't usually
have definitive answers. And I tell them, you know, the
Constitution means whatever the people will tolerate it meaning. And
so I think this moment is one of those situations where,
(15:35):
you know, if people are displeased with the way that
things are being done within the structure of our government,
then you know, it's on us to be out there
and say that the Constitution doesn't tolerate those. But it
is a challenge, you know, trying to teach the Constitution
starting back at seventeen eighty seven, right, and we've got,
(15:59):
you know, on the front page of the papers every
day or in our fees every day news about you know,
new tests to the Constitution and yeah, and so trying
to balance that in the class is always a little
bit challenging. But also really, if if it didn't mean
so much, it would be really interesting.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
But yeah, I'm curious to know, doctor Kiel, that that
what what are your student because the students what are
what are they saying? Because I know they're inquisitive or
they have their opinions?
Speaker 7 (16:36):
What do you hear a lot of First of all,
call me Daniel. Daniel, doctor Kiel is my dad, So
you know, it's just it's throwing me off.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Okay, Daniel. I was gonna say professor, but I just
say Daniels.
Speaker 7 (16:50):
Daniel's great, Okay, Yeah, they you know, they're they're in
school for you know, for their degree, yes, and but
at the same time they're living in the world, and
so you know, I think that they're as there. They've
chosen law as their path, as their profession, and as
(17:11):
we see kind of these challenges to the rule of
law and the you know, court system more broadly, I
think that you know, they maybe worry a little bit
about what they're getting themselves into, you know, and it's
the things that most of most lawyers are doing are
(17:32):
not constitutional law. But there is a you know, a
sort of trickle down if people stop following law, there's
a trickle down effect on that, and that can you know,
affect any case, you know, whether it's a landlord tenant
dispute or get in your will taken care of, or
you know, any any kind of legal dispute starts to
(17:54):
become a little more slippery once the rule of law
is you know, kind of not followed.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Okay, And getting back to the book and listeners. His
book Daniel Killed the Transition Interpreting Justice from Thurgood Marshal
to Clarence Thomas, and he has a picture of both
Supreme Court justices. I love this that writing the book,
you found a lot of differences between these two men.
(18:24):
I'm sure. Oh well, let me say this because I
was looking at them jumping out they're jumping out at
you and and I'm looking at you all and and
and and David, you would have one of my listeners
appreciate this. And I just want to read this for
a moment. And he quotes both men, and he says,
(18:45):
what is this is Thurgood Marshall talking. What is important
is a goal toward which we are moving, a goal
that is the basis of true democracy. That goal if
that if a child, a Negro child is born to
a black mother in a state like Mississippi or any
other state like that, born to the dummus poors sharecropper,
(19:09):
if by merely drawing its first breath in a democracy
there and without anymore, he is born with the exact
same rights as a similar child born to a white
parent of the wealthiest person in the United States. Quote
Thurgood Marshall, nineteen eighty eight. Here's what Clarence Thomas says,
(19:31):
nineteen eighty eight. Quote. I refuse to have my ideas
assigned to me as though I was an intellectual slave
because I'm black. I come to state that I'm a
man free to think for myself and do as I please.
Quote Wow, wow, yeah, yes, you found that.
Speaker 7 (19:54):
Yeah, you don't have to fight, you don't have to
go far to find different approaches from this from these
two people. And I think you know you're reading that. Yeah,
just reminds me of the sort of fundamental difference in
their approaches. And you can hear in the Clarence Thomas
quote a strong individualism yes and leave me alone kind
(20:20):
of approach. And you can hear from through a good marshal,
you know, a just sort of a need for every
person to have opportunity, yes, and to think of that
that opportunity should not matter, should not depend on things
like the you know, your your wealth, or your race,
(20:43):
or where you're born or what your parents did or
anything like that. And you know, he spent his career,
of course working, you know, advocating on behalf of people
in those situations. And that's always his approach. And it's
just such a different approach than Clarence Thomas's. Sometimes it's fun, though,
(21:04):
to realize that there's some similarities too. Obviously they're the
first two black justices on the Supreme Court, even though
they have very different sort of ideological approaches. But their
confirmation hearings, while Clarence Thomas's I think much more well
known based on the Anita Hill sexual harassment dynamics. Justice
(21:30):
Marshall was also his intelligence was questioned his fitness for
the bench. And this is someone who has argued dozens
of cases at the Supreme Court. The longest questioning of
a nominee up to that point was the questioning that
the Senate gave to Thirgood Marshal. His confirmation was occurring
(21:52):
sort of in the midst of nineteen sixty seven riots
in Detroit and other places, and you know, he was
painted as someone who was either unfit or not intelligent
enough to serve on the court, and those kinds of
critiques have followed Clarence Thomas as well. You know, somewhat famously,
(22:14):
he went through a long period where he didn't ask
any questions in oral arguments at the Supreme Court, and people,
you know, sort of outright accused him of not being
intelligent enough to ask questions, and so they have. You know,
they're obviously generationally different. Urgod Marshall, you know, grew up
in the in the nineteen thirties and Clarence Thomas's schooling
(22:37):
was mostly in the fifties and sixties. But they have
common experiences that are very much connected to their race
and to the disrespect that they have encountered in their careers,
even though they're wildly different ideologically.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Wow, Daniel, how long did it take you to write
this book? Oh?
Speaker 7 (23:02):
Goodness, It's hard to know when I started, because a
lot of the research that goes into the book are
things that I've been doing for many, many years. But
in terms of actually like sitting down and writing the book,
I would say something like eighteen months to two years.
(23:27):
And then there's a you know, I was fortunate enough
to find a good publisher and they worked with me,
and so it was probably another eighteen months of revisions
and editing and cuts and things, things that they wanted
me to add, things they wanted me to subtract.
Speaker 6 (23:42):
So, you know, a long time.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
And listeners you will see and get a chance to
talk with Daniel Keel at Bookstock coming up this Saturday.
Speaker 5 (23:57):
Yes, yes, and previously I always encourage our book club
members to come to Bookstock and talk to these local authors.
And if you don't have enough time, then write down
their names and invite these authors to come to your
book clubs. Then they would love to come to speak
to your book clubs in great length, you know. So
(24:19):
that's a great opportunity for local book club members to
come to Bookstock and enjoy this wonderful event. And that's
the meat of the Bookstock is sixty local authors, two
keynote speakers, and you can get their books and then
get the autographed books, sign books. But in addition, we
(24:39):
have so much more going on.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Well, tell me about what else you got going on
at Bookstock.
Speaker 5 (24:46):
This is I said, this is really event for family
of all ages. Let's talk about in the children's department,
that's the fun stuff. You have face painting, balloone artists,
Chinese caligor and also a juggling workshop learning how to juggle. Okay, okay,
and that's juggling for all ages. That's a children's department
(25:10):
in our clown nine one teen teen space. And by
the way, this clown Ninder one is our Benjamin L.
Hook's Central Libraries Ting teen Services area, and adults like
you and I normally are not allowed to go in
there because it's a teen's unique space. But on books
(25:32):
Dot Day we allowed to go there too, So come
on down and take take advantage of this opportunity. And
they have so many creative workshops there and you can
learn to do three D printed tiny book making. That's
a workshop, and there's DIY book toll bags. There's Creative
(25:52):
writing Workshop, Indie Children's book Publishing workshop, and the Bookmark
Design black Out, Poetry Corner, Poetry, spoken word, singing word,
open mic and all these things going on. But the
best of all is a teen author's panel. And at
(26:13):
Bookstock we really excited to give a local author platform
to showcase their work. And these local authors are really
of all different ages, including teen authors. So this year
we have about six or seventeen local authors and they're
going to do a teen author's panel at the Cloud
(26:35):
nine one. So that's that's really really exciting.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Is this the first time you all are doing with
the teen authors.
Speaker 5 (26:41):
We have teen authors participated in previous times, but this
is the first time we have a teen author's panel
to encourage and inspire other teen authors, aspiring teen authors
to do that.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
And then we have.
Speaker 5 (26:58):
Carnegie Low Carnegie Carnegie Writers Group. They're going to meet
and then do some writing workshop there. But we have
one hour of entertainment at twelve o'clock and that is
always a very popular event. We have African drumming passion.
You probably know about it last year, in the year before,
(27:19):
right before the Kenot speaking session, they were so loud.
It's always we always say this antial Grandmother's library anymore.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
No, no, it's not right.
Speaker 5 (27:30):
It is so loud and excite, so full of excitement.
We have East meets West fashion show, we have China
Memphis Chinese choir, and then Christian Brothers saxophone duet, and
we have Latino performance, many cultural performances. A Latino band
(27:52):
called Ritmo's Sun is going to perform outside the library.
And then we have food trucks, live musics, just so
much going on and it's full of excitement. And the
novel bookstore they are going to be there to sell
the Keno speaker's book, and the Autowap do some book
signing with two Kenos Chino speakers as well. So it's
(28:15):
it's a day full of events for of entertainment, full
of great literary moment to discuss, to talk, to speak,
to meet and those local authors and then workshops to
listen to the Kenot addresses and entertainment. So it's full
of events for a family of all ages.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Oh boy, Wayne, you all have put it together this year. Wow.
Speaker 5 (28:43):
Yes, every year it's just getting bigger and better.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
That's right, that's right. If you've just tuned in this afternoon,
I am talking with my guest, my guest in the studios,
Wayne Glasgow, who is the Adult Services Manager Memphis Public
Library and all. So he doesn't like to say professor,
but he is Professor Daniel Keel. He is written a
book called The Transition, Interpreting Justice from Thurgood Marshall to
(29:11):
Clarence Thomas. Boy. If you have a question or two
for our guest, we invite you to call now nine
zero one five three five nine three four two eight
hundred five zero three nine three four two eight three
three five three five nine three four two will get
(29:32):
you in to us. You're listening to double d i
A The Bevjsshow.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Whether you're in Arkansas, Tennessee, or Mississippi on Facebook, Twitter,
or Instagram. Thank you for listening to the Bev Johnson
Show on w d i A Memphis. You're listening to
(30:37):
the Bev Johnson Show. Here's Bev Johnson and.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
We're talking about bookstock that is coming up this weekend.
When Glasgow is here. Professor is Daniel keel and go
to our phone lines to talk with you. Thank you
for waiting. Hi mister James, Hello Bell Johnson.
Speaker 8 (30:55):
How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (30:56):
I'm doing well in yourself.
Speaker 8 (30:58):
Great, great, and hello to your guests. Also, hello there there,
hello hello. I have a question, and my question is
for Daniel mister kill.
Speaker 9 (31:11):
I remember.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Saka Marshall saying that, uh that uh.
Speaker 9 (31:17):
Claws Thomas would change. Well, Clais Thomas didn't change, claims
Thomas then, mister Clais Thomas. Now, so I have a
question for you, mister kell And I've asked this question
to the black manned black people, so I'm going to
take it that you're cautation.
Speaker 8 (31:36):
If you're white, I'm going to take it that you
are yes, Okay.
Speaker 9 (31:42):
I need to ask a Caucasian person or white person
this question, because when I asked black people this question,
black manned black people.
Speaker 8 (31:51):
Uh, we always talk about what we need to do,
what we got to do, what needs to be done,
and stuff like that. But when I talked to black
people that are not like minded, they're always talking about
we don't have this, we don't have that, we need this,
we can't do this. So my question to you was
sequiel is that what's your take on black people separating
(32:15):
from white people? And you don't have to answer the
questions you don't want to. I don't know if you
set there well this type of questions you want to ask.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
That professor that question, mister James. Okay, okay, we've.
Speaker 10 (32:28):
Got to you know, I just want a white person
a point of view on that question.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Okay, all right, thank you, mister.
Speaker 10 (32:34):
James, and I hang up and I'll listen.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
All right, all right, Daniel, Yeah, thank thank you James.
Speaker 7 (32:40):
So it actually is an interesting question because I think
the first major sort of substantive section of the book
is actually dealing with this exact question. Because Thurgood Marshall's
life's work was in creating access for black people to
(33:01):
enter spaces that they had been excluded from. But Clarence
Thomas's approach has been to embrace sort of separatism. And
so what the book tries to do is to trace
that long that's a long debate. I think a lot
of times people you know, think about, for example, the
(33:24):
Brown versus Board of Education story, which you know, I
think we know fairly well, and it's a story about access,
and it's a story about educational opportunity. But there's a
lot of there was a lot of people at the
time who felt like, yes, we needed to get rid
(33:45):
of the laws that restricted access, you know, that segregated,
the Jim Crow laws, but that that didn't necessarily need
to lead to integration. And I think that the years
after that sort of proof that you know, integration on
the terms at least that the United States or that
several of the states were willing to have integration on
(34:09):
you know, it didn't necessarily automatically lead to great educational opportunity,
and it was disproportionately impacting. You know, when schools had
to be shut down, it was often the formerly black schools.
When teachers had to be laid off, it was often
the black teachers. And so it wasn't an integration that
(34:30):
was you know, justice oriented, I guess is how you
might might articulate it. And so Clarence Thomas's approach has been,
you know, essentially, we don't need there's nothing about integration
that that is necessary for black excellence. And I think
(34:52):
a lot of people misunderstand that about Clarence Thomas and
think that, you know, and there are there are reasons
to to to be critical of Clarence Thomas for CIRT
for sure, and I think that the critiques of him
from the black community are you know, well founded, and
you know generally, I personally, you know, sort of take
(35:15):
take that those positions as well. But his his position
on this question is rooted in a longer history, you know,
going to you know, debates between w B. DU Bois
and Booker T. Washington, or between w B DU Boys
and Marcus Garvey, or between Martin Luther King and Malcolm X.
And you know, sort of not that you always have
(35:35):
to pair these kinds of things, but there's these strands
that have long roots, and that dismissing it just because
it's Clarence Thomas that says it, I think overlooks the.
Speaker 6 (35:50):
The the the strength of the argument. You know that,
you know, integration, the critique of.
Speaker 7 (35:57):
Integration, which is sort of a a major part of
Clarence Thomas's experience. He went to school's Catholic schools in
Savannah that were segregated up until he was in high school,
and then he entered predominantly white schools for the remainder
of his schooling, either at Seminary or at Holy Cross
or in law school at Yale, and so he had
(36:20):
kind of that experience of being in an integrated environment,
but as an extreme minority, he was the only one
at his high school seminary, only one African American in
the high school seminary, and so he.
Speaker 6 (36:34):
Brings that perspective to it.
Speaker 7 (36:38):
I know, James, I'm not answering your question directly, but
I think that the you know, the goal, one of
the goals of the book is to draw out these
kinds of ideas about, you know, about these.
Speaker 6 (36:52):
Kinds of topics.
Speaker 7 (36:53):
The first opinion of Clarence Thomas's that the book highlights
is just very brief opinion that he wrote about a
Mississippi university desegregation case, and his main point was that
it would be a shame if the HBCUs of Mississippi,
(37:14):
you know, sort of fell victim to integration. You know
that that as as black students were able to access
formerly white schools, that the HBCUs might disappear, and and
Clarence Thomas was saying that that would be an awful
shame or an irony.
Speaker 4 (37:29):
Mm w D I A Hi, David, Hey Belle back
for more fun. Okay, okay, let me say first to
the young.
Speaker 10 (37:39):
Lady that is sitting it with you, ma'am one of
the best and great Oh hell on to both of you.
I'm sorry, my mann. One of the best and great
things about meshis that has been consistent along his music
is his great library system.
Speaker 5 (37:56):
So much.
Speaker 10 (37:57):
Oh you're welcome. I need to be thanking you a
thousand times. I have loved your library system Maine and Peabody,
the new one, and in fact, men and a friend
and buddy I was. I was talking to him about
how much fun we had it Main and Peabody.
Speaker 6 (38:13):
So thank you.
Speaker 10 (38:15):
That's what I want to. Thank you for your service
and thank you.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 5 (38:21):
You made my day, and you made many of us
librarians working this library. You know, I am one of
the people who used to work in Peabody and then
we moved to Study thirty Poplar, being the library for
over thirty one years.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Wow.
Speaker 10 (38:38):
Wow wow wow. Yeah, your voice sounds to me. I
may have, I may have. Okay, I'll leave that long.
But anyway, attorney and can I call you attorney?
Speaker 6 (38:52):
Sure?
Speaker 7 (38:53):
Great?
Speaker 10 (38:54):
Great, that's not was your father attorney too?
Speaker 6 (38:56):
He's a interest.
Speaker 10 (38:58):
Oh yeah, I needed Badige's about not too. But in
any case, let me say this a short story that
I questioned afterwards. I was on Twitter before Elon mus
purchased it, and I left on my own accord because
(39:19):
I made a statement about Clarence Thomas and I was
accused of threatening Clarence Thomas. And the statement was it
was it was a case. I think it was a
case in Louisiana, I don't remember exactly, and it was
about jail or something. And I said, to be the
right to be to the right of Scalia is to
(39:39):
jump off a bridge. There is no right of Scalia.
And in that particular case, Galia went one way and
Clarence Thomas went another way. That was shocking to me.
So I don't and I said to myself when I
tried to, when I explain it to us, I said,
(40:01):
this cannot be a human being. This has to be
a computer generated response, because I would never threaten them,
no matter how much I dislike them. In fact, was interesting.
I voted for Bush one in the election, and my
greatest regret and voting for Bush one was, of course,
he asked Clarence Thomas to serve on the Supreme Court.
(40:25):
Now here's my question. One of the things I've only
had three three law courses undergrad to B law, one
administrative law, and what I've learned from being out in
the real world is there is no such thing as
a perfect contract, because all the other side has to
do is not to perform, and then you have to
(40:46):
collect or try to. What I think is going on,
and I get you a comment I hang up with
this country right now is that the Trump administration is
daring the Constitution to and those who agree with it
(41:07):
as it is. They're daring the Constitution, the Constitution to
live up to the letter of it meaning and they
perhaps don't even think that it does or didn't before,
but certainly they don't have enough respect for it to
do so. And so they're just gonna muck up the
courts and take as long as it takes, because they
(41:28):
realize that one of the things when the founding fathers
drawed up it wasn't a perfect contract to begin with it.
And I'm not even talking about my four parents, my ancestors.
I'm speaking of the fact that they believe that what
was not written that men will take care of their
fellow men, and that would be it. And so we
(41:52):
don't have to when we can't cover everything. Just like
a lady told me who owns a business, she said, David,
we can't cover I mean, no matter how much you
raise taxes. If people decided it's going to throw paper
on the ground, there's no raise in taxes is going
to cover that. And so I guess my final question
is what do you think that the Constitution would be
(42:15):
after the Trump administration. Thank you for your time and
your patient today.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Thank you, David.
Speaker 6 (42:21):
There's a lot there.
Speaker 7 (42:22):
I've thought for a second when you when we were
going into the contracts, that I was about to have
to give some legal advice. So yes, that was a relief.
So a lot of interesting things to respond to there.
And I guess I'll kind of start where you ended.
And this is a I'm going to I don't know
(42:44):
the quote exactly, but I think that it's capturing some
of some of the thought there in the in the
last comment from David, and it's that during the Constitutional
Convention and the the ratification phase, there was a lot
of people saying, you need to include this, and you
need to include that, and you need to do this,
(43:06):
and you need to do that. And if you don't
do those things, then you know, we shouldn't have a constitution.
And you know, the sort of result out of that
was the Bill of Rights, which includes, of course the
first ten amendments. But one of the things that came
out of that conversation, that sort of long term conversation,
was that James Madison, who was the one primarily responsible
(43:27):
for writing everything down at the Constitutional Convention, said, you know,
and I'm definitely paraphrasing, this is not exactly what James
Madison said. He said, you know, he said something like, look, people,
at some point, we have to trust the people that
are going to be operating this machine, right operating this government,
(43:48):
and the constitution can only protect so much, right we
It's like David is saying, you can't write a perfect contract,
you can't write a perfect constitution. At some point, there's
a level of trust that has to exist between the
people and the people that are governing. And he knew
that at the time. I think we all kind of
(44:10):
know that that at the end of the day, it
does depend on some level on our own goodwill and
our own good faith. And so, you know, the Constitution
is there, but it's not perfect. And again, sort of
just reiterating something I said a little earlier. It is
on us, yeah, to sort of be attentive, to be
(44:31):
attentive to these kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
So sounds good, Wow, And I know people can't wait
to talk to you. Daniel keel and weighing again, tell
our listeners again, what's happening on Saturday?
Speaker 5 (44:45):
On Saturday at Benjamin L. Hook's Central Library, I'm thirty
thirty Poplar will have a free, family friendly event called
Bookstock Memphis Area Author's Festival with showcase more than sixty authors.
You can tell people are fascinated with Daniel's book, right,
and that is just one author and multiple that we
(45:09):
have sixty of authors, sixty different stories of fiction, non fiction, romance, law, religious,
you know, all kinds of perspectives and the unique stories.
So people may be fascinated with all of them. And
one of the my favorite story is that some of
(45:30):
the like two of the authors, told me they just
came in as a participant to meet these authors and
they were so inspired by them. The next year they
went back get their books published and come back the
next year as one of the authors.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
Sounds good the time again.
Speaker 5 (45:48):
Saturday, May third from eleven am to three pm at
Benjamin L. Hook's Central Library on thirty thirty Poplar Sounds Good.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
Wayne Glascow, who is the Adult Services UH manager there
at the library, and Professor Daniel Keel, who is professor
at the University of Memphis Law School. His book The Transition.
Y'all get on over there on Saturday to get it.
Interpreting Justice from Thurgood Marshall to Clarence Thomas. Thank you
(46:19):
all for being here. You've been such a delight.
Speaker 6 (46:22):
Thank you so much. This has been a treat.
Speaker 10 (46:24):
Good good.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
You have to I have to help get you back
professor and talk to us. Thank you for having us.
You are so welcome. See you on Saturday at book Stock. Yeah,
when we come back. More chick chat with me. Bev
Johnson on w d i A The Bev j Show,
(46:56):
Don't
Speaker 1 (46:56):
Go Away, The Bev Johnson Children
Memphis probably presents the Bev Johnson Show.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Let me say bath.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
Me first, let me say she's gone Memphis. Okay, no
matter of the problem, she can have you, so all
(00:32):
the phono.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Norma on your mind. She understand to be ding in
the hair by challing you to just keep them fing.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Went around picking up the chopin show betting Gay Heavy.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
You can hear every day you need please well bell
got me a missed king. Good morning, good morning, good morning,
(01:48):
and welcome into w d i A The Bev Johnson Show.
It is indeed a pleasure to have you with us
once again on this Wednesday hump Day, April thirty, of
the last day in April twenty twenty five. Enjoy this
fabulous day to day. Get ready put your ears on
(02:10):
as we share the good news. First, we'll be talking
with our folks from the Memphis Public Library to see
what's going on in the library. Second hour, we will
talk mental health and we'll tell you more about that.
So stick and state for that. When it's your turn
to talk, you know you can. All you need to
(02:31):
do is dieal these numbers nine zero one five three
five nine three four two nine zero one five three
five nine three four to two eight hundred five zero
three nine three four two eight three three five three
(02:54):
five nine three four two will get you in two
me and if this day, this day, Wednesday, April thirtieth,
twenty twenty five, is your birthday. Happy birthday to each
(03:18):
and every one of y'all out there who may be
celebrating a birthday on this day. We say God, y'all
go out and celebrate your life. You better, You're better.
When we come back, we'll talk about what's going on
with the Memphis Public Libraries. Next with me Bev Johnson
(03:44):
on the Bev Johnson Show only on dob d i A.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
That's just a show the jup side with this talk.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Home away, Help you go, you go so getting ready
in time show.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
LESCo will make your day by here Rodd.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Listen to what to fay you nor with time of
the Belt of Fish of the Mountain show Lucky Leco.
We are rocking and rolling on this Wednesday, Huck Day,
April thirtieth, twenty twenty five. Enjoyed this fabulous day today.
As I said earlier, my guests are in the studio.
(05:47):
Wanna welcome back. Who's no stranger to the Bev Johnson
show was swaying at Glasgow who is the Adult Services
manager with the Memphis Public Library. And as always we
got another guests, so she's gonna tell us about that.
But good to have you you Wang, How are you
very well?
Speaker 5 (06:07):
Thank you so much for having us back.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
You are so welcome. Welcome. We are getting ready or
you all are getting ready again for Bookstock.
Speaker 5 (06:18):
Yes, Bookstock Memphis Areas Assa's Festival will be on this Saturday,
May third, from eleven am to three pm at Benjamin L.
Hook Central Library on thirty thirty Poplar. And we have
so many, so many wonderful excited things going on for
(06:39):
that day, so mark on your calendar and come on
to Benjamin L. Hook Central Library on Saturday.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
So tell our listeners who have never attended Bookstock what
they are going to see.
Speaker 5 (06:54):
So they will definitely see sixty local authors. Each and
every one of them has written a book of their
story and their experience. They will have an exhibit. Each
author will have an exhibit and they can sell their
book and autograph their book and you can come and
talk to them and know about their story, learn about
(07:18):
their journey to getting their books published, and even get
their autographed books. And we will have two wonderful nationally
known New York Times bestselling authors as keinot speakers. W
One of them is Roxanne Gay and the other is
Shamichael Holmann. And Roxanne is the author of Hunger Bad Feminist,
(07:46):
and she is just such a wonderful author feminism, identity
and many issues that of concern of interest to women,
and she is We're so happy and excited to be
able to get her to come to Memphis, and many
(08:08):
thanks to the Memphis Library Foundation for sponsoring her trip
to Memphis. First time to Memphis.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (08:17):
And the other one is Shamichael Holman. Many of you
might know him. He used to be the manager of
Costi Branch Library and he's not working in DC in
the Urban Library Council, and he has written a book
called Meet Me at the Library, a Place to foster
(08:37):
social connection and promote democracy. So we are so excited
to bring our own Shamichael Holman back as one of
the keynote speakers.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
So waange one of the things that with bookstop and
as Shamichael Holman so one of our own. But basically
the authors that are going to be there, they're local.
Speaker 5 (08:59):
Yes, they are all local authors, sixty of them. And
the reason we have sixty is the our library lobby
areas can only accommodate sixty tables and with sixty authors,
so we have it to our full capacity. So that's
why every year we capped at sixty local authors. And
(09:21):
you never know, we always have a wait list, right.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Yeah, because because I hear that that, you know, people
try to get in, but the list is so long
because continuing people are writing books.
Speaker 5 (09:36):
Yes, and it's it's easier. They made it easier to
get to become a self published author. So every one
of us have story and they want to write it
down to hand it down, you know, as a legacy
to get your books published. And that's why every one
(09:56):
of these authors, once they get their books published, they
want to have an book signing event. So that's why
we do that on an annual basis at the Memphis
Puppet Library to showcase sixty authors collectively once a year.
And during the year, many times authors will call us
(10:17):
and they want to do their own We say no,
I'm sorry, we don't do the individual book signing, but
we have this annual event and they all love to
join and participate in this event. So once a year,
once year, once a year, and we have this annual
bookstock event and we always have a waitlist and we
(10:38):
get them on right.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
I know here this afternoon, you have brought one of
the authors here, and I am going to let you
have the pleasure of introducing this author to our listening audience.
Speaker 5 (10:51):
Yes, we are very pleased to have doctor Keil of
Universal Memphis Law School. And he has written a wonderful
book and I will let him tell you about it.
And he is a first time bookstock participant to join
in this event. So we are so excited to have
(11:12):
him here with us to promote his book. And you
will not be disappointed.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Well, welcome in, doctor Daniel Keel. How are you.
Speaker 6 (11:21):
I'm doing well. How are you?
Speaker 2 (11:22):
I'm hanging, brother, I'm hanging. So you're right in town,
the University of Memphis, right and at the Law Law School.
Speaker 6 (11:33):
Yep, downtown, downtown.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
How long you been there?
Speaker 6 (11:35):
I've been there seventeen years.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Get out of town.
Speaker 6 (11:40):
It's been a little while, yeah, yeah, and I can
measure it.
Speaker 7 (11:43):
My son is sixteen years old, and I remember grading
the exams the very first year, right right when he
was born. Wow.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Wow wow. So you have written this book, and y'all
it is called the Transition in terms briding justice from
Thirdgood Marshall to Clarence Thomas. Wow wow. Just when you
handed me this book and I saw the two going like,
(12:11):
oh boy, what is this the about? A little bit
about it? Sure, So before you did, before you tell
me a little bit why did you decide to write this?
Speaker 7 (12:21):
So my research specialty is primarily race and schools, so
education law and the combination of education law and constitutional law.
Speaker 6 (12:32):
And I teach a course.
Speaker 7 (12:33):
I've taught it for now seventeen years and it's called
Education and Civil Rights, and we sort of trace the
history of legal cases where people are trying to access
equitable education and educational opportunities.
Speaker 6 (12:48):
And obviously.
Speaker 7 (12:50):
That a lot of that work is the work of
Thurgood Marshall. And so we're tracing Thurgod Marshall's work as
a lawyer, and then we, you know, end up reading
some of Thurgood Marshal's opinions as a Supreme Court justice,
And because of the timing of the course, sometimes we
end up pairing. You know, I'll be teaching one case
(13:11):
from nineteen seventy four, where Thurgood Marshall has written in
another case from nineteen ninety five where Clarence Thomas has
a lot of things to say about his educational experience
and the way that the law affects that. And I
just when you juxtapose the opinions, you know, the things
that the justices have written right next to one another,
(13:32):
you realize how they're kind of participating in a long
form conversation about how best to achieve educational opportunity in
this country. And so they have such different perspectives on it,
but they both are informed by their own experiences. And
my students always reacted to the pairing of the two
(13:53):
of them. And so, like I said, I've been teaching
the class for quite a while, but at some point
I said, you know what, I think that there's enough
here beyond just you know, one or two days of class.
There's enough here to really tell their stories both about
their educational upbringings and how those connect to sort of
(14:13):
broader questions about schooling in America, about race in America,
about democracy in America, and the meaning of the Constitution.
So that's kind of the overall summary of of of
what's in there.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Wow, you know when you when you talk about doctor Keel,
the the Constitution were messing it up. Now we not
only say we the folks in DC they they don't
get it or what is it? Yeah, I mean, it's
(14:47):
just they're not going by the constitution. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (14:51):
I've been I teach constitutional law in the spring semester.
My students right now are preparing for their exams, okay,
and it's been a challenging semester to teach the course
because there's a lot of flux and I think we're
seeing a lot of pushing on the edges of what
the Constitution will tolerate. And one thing that I tell
(15:12):
my students, you know, because I think people come in
and they think the Constitution has a definitive answer about
this and a definitive answer about that, and it's really
not that long of a document and it doesn't usually
have definitive answers. And I tell them, you know, the
Constitution means whatever the people will tolerate it meaning. And
so I think this moment is one of those situations where,
(15:35):
you know, if people are displeased with the way that
things are being done within the structure of our government,
then you know, it's on us to be out there
and say that the Constitution doesn't tolerate those. But it
is a challenge, you know, trying to teach the Constitution
starting back at seventeen eighty seven, right, and we've got,
(15:59):
you know, on the front page of the papers every
day or in our fees every day news about you know,
new tests to the Constitution and yeah, and so trying
to balance that in the class is always a little
bit challenging. But also really, if if it didn't mean
so much, it would be really interesting.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
But yeah, I'm curious to know, doctor Kiel, that that
what what are your student because the students what are
what are they saying? Because I know they're inquisitive or
they have their opinions?
Speaker 7 (16:36):
What do you hear a lot of First of all,
call me Daniel. Daniel, doctor Kiel is my dad, So
you know, it's just it's throwing me off.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Okay, Daniel. I was gonna say professor, but I just
say Daniels.
Speaker 7 (16:50):
Daniel's great, Okay, Yeah, they you know, they're they're in
school for you know, for their degree, yes, and but
at the same time they're living in the world, and
so you know, I think that they're as there. They've
chosen law as their path, as their profession, and as
(17:11):
we see kind of these challenges to the rule of
law and the you know, court system more broadly, I
think that you know, they maybe worry a little bit
about what they're getting themselves into, you know, and it's
the things that most of most lawyers are doing are
(17:32):
not constitutional law. But there is a you know, a
sort of trickle down if people stop following law, there's
a trickle down effect on that, and that can you know,
affect any case, you know, whether it's a landlord tenant
dispute or get in your will taken care of, or
you know, any any kind of legal dispute starts to
(17:54):
become a little more slippery once the rule of law
is you know, kind of not followed.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Okay, And getting back to the book and listeners. His
book Daniel Killed the Transition Interpreting Justice from Thurgood Marshal
to Clarence Thomas, and he has a picture of both
Supreme Court justices. I love this that writing the book,
you found a lot of differences between these two men.
(18:24):
I'm sure. Oh well, let me say this because I
was looking at them jumping out they're jumping out at
you and and I'm looking at you all and and
and and David, you would have one of my listeners
appreciate this. And I just want to read this for
a moment. And he quotes both men, and he says,
(18:45):
what is this is Thurgood Marshall talking. What is important
is a goal toward which we are moving, a goal
that is the basis of true democracy. That goal if
that if a child, a Negro child is born to
a black mother in a state like Mississippi or any
other state like that, born to the dummus poors sharecropper,
(19:09):
if by merely drawing its first breath in a democracy
there and without anymore, he is born with the exact
same rights as a similar child born to a white
parent of the wealthiest person in the United States. Quote
Thurgood Marshall, nineteen eighty eight. Here's what Clarence Thomas says,
(19:31):
nineteen eighty eight. Quote. I refuse to have my ideas
assigned to me as though I was an intellectual slave
because I'm black. I come to state that I'm a
man free to think for myself and do as I please.
Quote Wow, wow, yeah, yes, you found that.
Speaker 7 (19:54):
Yeah, you don't have to fight, you don't have to
go far to find different approaches from this from these
two people. And I think you know you're reading that. Yeah,
just reminds me of the sort of fundamental difference in
their approaches. And you can hear in the Clarence Thomas
quote a strong individualism yes and leave me alone kind
(20:20):
of approach. And you can hear from through a good marshal,
you know, a just sort of a need for every
person to have opportunity, yes, and to think of that
that opportunity should not matter, should not depend on things
like the you know, your your wealth, or your race,
(20:43):
or where you're born or what your parents did or
anything like that. And you know, he spent his career,
of course working, you know, advocating on behalf of people
in those situations. And that's always his approach. And it's
just such a different approach than Clarence Thomas's. Sometimes it's fun, though,
(21:04):
to realize that there's some similarities too. Obviously they're the
first two black justices on the Supreme Court, even though
they have very different sort of ideological approaches. But their
confirmation hearings, while Clarence Thomas's I think much more well
known based on the Anita Hill sexual harassment dynamics. Justice
(21:30):
Marshall was also his intelligence was questioned his fitness for
the bench. And this is someone who has argued dozens
of cases at the Supreme Court. The longest questioning of
a nominee up to that point was the questioning that
the Senate gave to Thirgood Marshal. His confirmation was occurring
(21:52):
sort of in the midst of nineteen sixty seven riots
in Detroit and other places, and you know, he was
painted as someone who was either unfit or not intelligent
enough to serve on the court, and those kinds of
critiques have followed Clarence Thomas as well. You know, somewhat famously,
(22:14):
he went through a long period where he didn't ask
any questions in oral arguments at the Supreme Court, and people,
you know, sort of outright accused him of not being
intelligent enough to ask questions, and so they have. You know,
they're obviously generationally different. Urgod Marshall, you know, grew up
in the in the nineteen thirties and Clarence Thomas's schooling
(22:37):
was mostly in the fifties and sixties. But they have
common experiences that are very much connected to their race
and to the disrespect that they have encountered in their careers,
even though they're wildly different ideologically.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Wow, Daniel, how long did it take you to write
this book? Oh?
Speaker 7 (23:02):
Goodness, It's hard to know when I started, because a
lot of the research that goes into the book are
things that I've been doing for many, many years. But
in terms of actually like sitting down and writing the book,
I would say something like eighteen months to two years.
(23:27):
And then there's a you know, I was fortunate enough
to find a good publisher and they worked with me,
and so it was probably another eighteen months of revisions
and editing and cuts and things, things that they wanted
me to add, things they wanted me to subtract.
Speaker 6 (23:42):
So, you know, a long time.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
And listeners you will see and get a chance to
talk with Daniel Keel at Bookstock coming up this Saturday.
Speaker 5 (23:57):
Yes, yes, and previously I always encourage our book club
members to come to Bookstock and talk to these local authors.
And if you don't have enough time, then write down
their names and invite these authors to come to your
book clubs. Then they would love to come to speak
to your book clubs in great length, you know. So
(24:19):
that's a great opportunity for local book club members to
come to Bookstock and enjoy this wonderful event. And that's
the meat of the Bookstock is sixty local authors, two
keynote speakers, and you can get their books and then
get the autographed books, sign books. But in addition, we
(24:39):
have so much more going on.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Well, tell me about what else you got going on
at Bookstock.
Speaker 5 (24:46):
This is I said, this is really event for family
of all ages. Let's talk about in the children's department,
that's the fun stuff. You have face painting, balloone artists,
Chinese caligor and also a juggling workshop learning how to juggle. Okay, okay,
and that's juggling for all ages. That's a children's department
(25:10):
in our clown nine one teen teen space. And by
the way, this clown Ninder one is our Benjamin L.
Hook's Central Libraries Ting teen Services area, and adults like
you and I normally are not allowed to go in
there because it's a teen's unique space. But on books
(25:32):
Dot Day we allowed to go there too, So come
on down and take take advantage of this opportunity. And
they have so many creative workshops there and you can
learn to do three D printed tiny book making. That's
a workshop, and there's DIY book toll bags. There's Creative
(25:52):
writing Workshop, Indie Children's book Publishing workshop, and the Bookmark
Design black Out, Poetry Corner, Poetry, spoken word, singing word,
open mic and all these things going on. But the
best of all is a teen author's panel. And at
(26:13):
Bookstock we really excited to give a local author platform
to showcase their work. And these local authors are really
of all different ages, including teen authors. So this year
we have about six or seventeen local authors and they're
going to do a teen author's panel at the Cloud
(26:35):
nine one. So that's that's really really exciting.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Is this the first time you all are doing with
the teen authors.
Speaker 5 (26:41):
We have teen authors participated in previous times, but this
is the first time we have a teen author's panel
to encourage and inspire other teen authors, aspiring teen authors
to do that.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
And then we have.
Speaker 5 (26:58):
Carnegie Low Carnegie Carnegie Writers Group. They're going to meet
and then do some writing workshop there. But we have
one hour of entertainment at twelve o'clock and that is
always a very popular event. We have African drumming passion.
You probably know about it last year, in the year before,
(27:19):
right before the Kenot speaking session, they were so loud.
It's always we always say this antial Grandmother's library anymore.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
No, no, it's not right.
Speaker 5 (27:30):
It is so loud and excite, so full of excitement.
We have East meets West fashion show, we have China
Memphis Chinese choir, and then Christian Brothers saxophone duet, and
we have Latino performance, many cultural performances. A Latino band
(27:52):
called Ritmo's Sun is going to perform outside the library.
And then we have food trucks, live musics, just so
much going on and it's full of excitement. And the
novel bookstore they are going to be there to sell
the Keno speaker's book, and the Autowap do some book
signing with two Kenos Chino speakers as well. So it's
(28:15):
it's a day full of events for of entertainment, full
of great literary moment to discuss, to talk, to speak,
to meet and those local authors and then workshops to
listen to the Kenot addresses and entertainment. So it's full
of events for a family of all ages.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Oh boy, Wayne, you all have put it together this year. Wow.
Speaker 5 (28:43):
Yes, every year it's just getting bigger and better.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
That's right, that's right. If you've just tuned in this afternoon,
I am talking with my guest, my guest in the studios,
Wayne Glasgow, who is the Adult Services Manager Memphis Public
Library and all. So he doesn't like to say professor,
but he is Professor Daniel Keel. He is written a
book called The Transition, Interpreting Justice from Thurgood Marshall to
(29:11):
Clarence Thomas. Boy. If you have a question or two
for our guest, we invite you to call now nine
zero one five three five nine three four two eight
hundred five zero three nine three four two eight three
three five three five nine three four two will get
(29:32):
you in to us. You're listening to double d i
A The Bevjsshow.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Whether you're in Arkansas, Tennessee, or Mississippi on Facebook, Twitter,
or Instagram. Thank you for listening to the Bev Johnson
Show on w d i A Memphis. You're listening to
(30:37):
the Bev Johnson Show. Here's Bev Johnson and.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
We're talking about bookstock that is coming up this weekend.
When Glasgow is here. Professor is Daniel keel and go
to our phone lines to talk with you. Thank you
for waiting. Hi mister James, Hello Bell Johnson.
Speaker 8 (30:55):
How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (30:56):
I'm doing well in yourself.
Speaker 8 (30:58):
Great, great, and hello to your guests. Also, hello there there,
hello hello. I have a question, and my question is
for Daniel mister kill.
Speaker 9 (31:11):
I remember.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Saka Marshall saying that, uh that uh.
Speaker 9 (31:17):
Claws Thomas would change. Well, Clais Thomas didn't change, claims
Thomas then, mister Clais Thomas. Now, so I have a
question for you, mister kell And I've asked this question
to the black manned black people, so I'm going to
take it that you're cautation.
Speaker 8 (31:36):
If you're white, I'm going to take it that you
are yes, Okay.
Speaker 9 (31:42):
I need to ask a Caucasian person or white person
this question, because when I asked black people this question,
black manned black people.
Speaker 8 (31:51):
Uh, we always talk about what we need to do,
what we got to do, what needs to be done,
and stuff like that. But when I talked to black
people that are not like minded, they're always talking about
we don't have this, we don't have that, we need this,
we can't do this. So my question to you was
sequiel is that what's your take on black people separating
(32:15):
from white people? And you don't have to answer the
questions you don't want to. I don't know if you
set there well this type of questions you want to ask.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
That professor that question, mister James. Okay, okay, we've.
Speaker 10 (32:28):
Got to you know, I just want a white person
a point of view on that question.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Okay, all right, thank you, mister.
Speaker 10 (32:34):
James, and I hang up and I'll listen.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
All right, all right, Daniel, Yeah, thank thank you James.
Speaker 7 (32:40):
So it actually is an interesting question because I think
the first major sort of substantive section of the book
is actually dealing with this exact question. Because Thurgood Marshall's
life's work was in creating access for black people to
(33:01):
enter spaces that they had been excluded from. But Clarence
Thomas's approach has been to embrace sort of separatism. And
so what the book tries to do is to trace
that long that's a long debate. I think a lot
of times people you know, think about, for example, the
(33:24):
Brown versus Board of Education story, which you know, I
think we know fairly well, and it's a story about access,
and it's a story about educational opportunity. But there's a
lot of there was a lot of people at the
time who felt like, yes, we needed to get rid
(33:45):
of the laws that restricted access, you know, that segregated,
the Jim Crow laws, but that that didn't necessarily need
to lead to integration. And I think that the years
after that sort of proof that you know, integration on
the terms at least that the United States or that
several of the states were willing to have integration on
(34:09):
you know, it didn't necessarily automatically lead to great educational opportunity,
and it was disproportionately impacting. You know, when schools had
to be shut down, it was often the formerly black schools.
When teachers had to be laid off, it was often
the black teachers. And so it wasn't an integration that
(34:30):
was you know, justice oriented, I guess is how you
might might articulate it. And so Clarence Thomas's approach has been,
you know, essentially, we don't need there's nothing about integration
that that is necessary for black excellence. And I think
(34:52):
a lot of people misunderstand that about Clarence Thomas and
think that, you know, and there are there are reasons
to to to be critical of Clarence Thomas for CIRT
for sure, and I think that the critiques of him
from the black community are you know, well founded, and
you know generally, I personally, you know, sort of take
(35:15):
take that those positions as well. But his his position
on this question is rooted in a longer history, you know,
going to you know, debates between w B. DU Bois
and Booker T. Washington, or between w B DU Boys
and Marcus Garvey, or between Martin Luther King and Malcolm X.
And you know, sort of not that you always have
(35:35):
to pair these kinds of things, but there's these strands
that have long roots, and that dismissing it just because
it's Clarence Thomas that says it, I think overlooks the.
Speaker 6 (35:50):
The the the strength of the argument. You know that,
you know, integration, the critique of.
Speaker 7 (35:57):
Integration, which is sort of a a major part of
Clarence Thomas's experience. He went to school's Catholic schools in
Savannah that were segregated up until he was in high school,
and then he entered predominantly white schools for the remainder
of his schooling, either at Seminary or at Holy Cross
or in law school at Yale, and so he had
(36:20):
kind of that experience of being in an integrated environment,
but as an extreme minority, he was the only one
at his high school seminary, only one African American in
the high school seminary, and so he.
Speaker 6 (36:34):
Brings that perspective to it.
Speaker 7 (36:38):
I know, James, I'm not answering your question directly, but
I think that the you know, the goal, one of
the goals of the book is to draw out these
kinds of ideas about, you know, about these.
Speaker 6 (36:52):
Kinds of topics.
Speaker 7 (36:53):
The first opinion of Clarence Thomas's that the book highlights
is just very brief opinion that he wrote about a
Mississippi university desegregation case, and his main point was that
it would be a shame if the HBCUs of Mississippi,
(37:14):
you know, sort of fell victim to integration. You know
that that as as black students were able to access
formerly white schools, that the HBCUs might disappear, and and
Clarence Thomas was saying that that would be an awful
shame or an irony.
Speaker 4 (37:29):
Mm w D I A Hi, David, Hey Belle back
for more fun. Okay, okay, let me say first to
the young.
Speaker 10 (37:39):
Lady that is sitting it with you, ma'am one of
the best and great Oh hell on to both of you.
I'm sorry, my mann. One of the best and great
things about meshis that has been consistent along his music
is his great library system.
Speaker 5 (37:56):
So much.
Speaker 10 (37:57):
Oh you're welcome. I need to be thanking you a
thousand times. I have loved your library system Maine and Peabody,
the new one, and in fact, men and a friend
and buddy I was. I was talking to him about
how much fun we had it Main and Peabody.
Speaker 6 (38:13):
So thank you.
Speaker 10 (38:15):
That's what I want to. Thank you for your service
and thank you.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 5 (38:21):
You made my day, and you made many of us
librarians working this library. You know, I am one of
the people who used to work in Peabody and then
we moved to Study thirty Poplar, being the library for
over thirty one years.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Wow.
Speaker 10 (38:38):
Wow wow wow. Yeah, your voice sounds to me. I
may have, I may have. Okay, I'll leave that long.
But anyway, attorney and can I call you attorney?
Speaker 6 (38:52):
Sure?
Speaker 7 (38:53):
Great?
Speaker 10 (38:54):
Great, that's not was your father attorney too?
Speaker 6 (38:56):
He's a interest.
Speaker 10 (38:58):
Oh yeah, I needed Badige's about not too. But in
any case, let me say this a short story that
I questioned afterwards. I was on Twitter before Elon mus
purchased it, and I left on my own accord because
(39:19):
I made a statement about Clarence Thomas and I was
accused of threatening Clarence Thomas. And the statement was it
was it was a case. I think it was a
case in Louisiana, I don't remember exactly, and it was
about jail or something. And I said, to be the
right to be to the right of Scalia is to
(39:39):
jump off a bridge. There is no right of Scalia.
And in that particular case, Galia went one way and
Clarence Thomas went another way. That was shocking to me.
So I don't and I said to myself when I
tried to, when I explain it to us, I said,
(40:01):
this cannot be a human being. This has to be
a computer generated response, because I would never threaten them,
no matter how much I dislike them. In fact, was interesting.
I voted for Bush one in the election, and my
greatest regret and voting for Bush one was, of course,
he asked Clarence Thomas to serve on the Supreme Court.
(40:25):
Now here's my question. One of the things I've only
had three three law courses undergrad to B law, one
administrative law, and what I've learned from being out in
the real world is there is no such thing as
a perfect contract, because all the other side has to
do is not to perform, and then you have to
(40:46):
collect or try to. What I think is going on,
and I get you a comment I hang up with
this country right now is that the Trump administration is
daring the Constitution to and those who agree with it
(41:07):
as it is. They're daring the Constitution, the Constitution to
live up to the letter of it meaning and they
perhaps don't even think that it does or didn't before,
but certainly they don't have enough respect for it to
do so. And so they're just gonna muck up the
courts and take as long as it takes, because they
(41:28):
realize that one of the things when the founding fathers
drawed up it wasn't a perfect contract to begin with it.
And I'm not even talking about my four parents, my ancestors.
I'm speaking of the fact that they believe that what
was not written that men will take care of their
fellow men, and that would be it. And so we
(41:52):
don't have to when we can't cover everything. Just like
a lady told me who owns a business, she said, David,
we can't cover I mean, no matter how much you
raise taxes. If people decided it's going to throw paper
on the ground, there's no raise in taxes is going
to cover that. And so I guess my final question
is what do you think that the Constitution would be
(42:15):
after the Trump administration. Thank you for your time and
your patient today.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Thank you, David.
Speaker 6 (42:21):
There's a lot there.
Speaker 7 (42:22):
I've thought for a second when you when we were
going into the contracts, that I was about to have
to give some legal advice. So yes, that was a relief.
So a lot of interesting things to respond to there.
And I guess I'll kind of start where you ended.
And this is a I'm going to I don't know
(42:44):
the quote exactly, but I think that it's capturing some
of some of the thought there in the in the
last comment from David, and it's that during the Constitutional
Convention and the the ratification phase, there was a lot
of people saying, you need to include this, and you
need to include that, and you need to do this,
(43:06):
and you need to do that. And if you don't
do those things, then you know, we shouldn't have a constitution.
And you know, the sort of result out of that
was the Bill of Rights, which includes, of course the
first ten amendments. But one of the things that came
out of that conversation, that sort of long term conversation,
was that James Madison, who was the one primarily responsible
(43:27):
for writing everything down at the Constitutional Convention, said, you know,
and I'm definitely paraphrasing, this is not exactly what James
Madison said. He said, you know, he said something like, look, people,
at some point, we have to trust the people that
are going to be operating this machine, right operating this government,
(43:48):
and the constitution can only protect so much, right we
It's like David is saying, you can't write a perfect contract,
you can't write a perfect constitution. At some point, there's
a level of trust that has to exist between the
people and the people that are governing. And he knew
that at the time. I think we all kind of
(44:10):
know that that at the end of the day, it
does depend on some level on our own goodwill and
our own good faith. And so, you know, the Constitution
is there, but it's not perfect. And again, sort of
just reiterating something I said a little earlier. It is
on us, yeah, to sort of be attentive, to be
(44:31):
attentive to these kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
So sounds good, Wow, And I know people can't wait
to talk to you. Daniel keel and weighing again, tell
our listeners again, what's happening on Saturday?
Speaker 5 (44:45):
On Saturday at Benjamin L. Hook's Central Library, I'm thirty
thirty Poplar will have a free, family friendly event called
Bookstock Memphis Area Author's Festival with showcase more than sixty authors.
You can tell people are fascinated with Daniel's book, right,
and that is just one author and multiple that we
(45:09):
have sixty of authors, sixty different stories of fiction, non fiction, romance, law, religious,
you know, all kinds of perspectives and the unique stories.
So people may be fascinated with all of them. And
one of the my favorite story is that some of
(45:30):
the like two of the authors, told me they just
came in as a participant to meet these authors and
they were so inspired by them. The next year they
went back get their books published and come back the
next year as one of the authors.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
Sounds good the time again.
Speaker 5 (45:48):
Saturday, May third from eleven am to three pm at
Benjamin L. Hook's Central Library on thirty thirty Poplar Sounds Good.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
Wayne Glascow, who is the Adult Services UH manager there
at the library, and Professor Daniel Keel, who is professor
at the University of Memphis Law School. His book The Transition.
Y'all get on over there on Saturday to get it.
Interpreting Justice from Thurgood Marshall to Clarence Thomas. Thank you
(46:19):
all for being here. You've been such a delight.
Speaker 6 (46:22):
Thank you so much. This has been a treat.
Speaker 10 (46:24):
Good good.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
You have to I have to help get you back
professor and talk to us. Thank you for having us.
You are so welcome. See you on Saturday at book Stock. Yeah,
when we come back. More chick chat with me. Bev
Johnson on w d i A The Bev j Show,
(46:56):
Don't
Speaker 1 (46:56):
Go Away, The Bev Johnson Children
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