Ep.72: "I Researched Cults to Prove I Wasn't in One"

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In this episode, Ashleigh & Mattie  sit down with Mitzi and Jordan to explore the complex layers of growing up in high-control religious environments. Mitzi shares her journey from a fundamentalist upbringing in Alberta and Missouri—where horror movies were banned but Enya was "safe"—to her current work as a portrait photographer and coach helping others find their authentic selves. 

The conversation dives deep into the psychological toll of "fitting in" to religious roles, discussing how the relief of finally belonging can often mask the reality that the environment is "killing you inside".

Jordan, an ex-pastor, provides a unique perspective on the "calling to ministry," revealing how it often stems from a genuine desire to be a refuge for others while simultaneously seeking parental and community approval.

The duo shares both poignant and humorous anecdotes, from the sleep-deprived "Cry Nights" at youth conventions to the absurd moment a youth pastor used The Matrix to warn them about the devil. Together, they navigate the "uncertainty" of life post-cult, offering a raw look at deconstruction, the search for stability, and the spiritual experiences that shaped their path toward authenticity. 

Find Mitzi here: https://www.mitzistarkweather.com/ 

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
The world tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
The Worldwide Church of God presents Herbert's w Armstrong.

Speaker 3 (00:08):
And I'm here to bring you the truth. No one
else is telling you the things that God is telling
you through me.

Speaker 4 (00:16):
He's speaking through.

Speaker 1 (00:17):
Me the Lord.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Let me experience what it is to be a new bride.
You know, I'm not worried about what I'm about to say,
though it may be graphic. We're coming to the Lord
and if you can take it, beyond the veil is
the chamber. That's the wedding chamber. The Lord told me that.

Speaker 3 (00:37):
But from then on, visions begin to come. When this
comes up on me, it produces the vision. I'm able
to tell people what's wrong with them, what they must
do in life, and the sins that they are holding back.

Speaker 5 (00:50):
In their life. God is going to be moving vitally
in fot like he dies before Booths judgment. Hello everyone,
and welcome back to the Cult Next doour podcast. If
you haven't already, go follow us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok,
all those fun places. Also, you can leave us a

(01:12):
voice message. You can find the link at the top
of the episode description for the episode that you are
listening to right now and leave us a cool voice message.
We've actually had a few over the last several months
that will probably start playing. We might even play one
today before this episode starts. Is pretty neat. Also, want
to do our Double Portion Club shout outs right quick,

(01:33):
Shanda and Chase, Heather Bartlett, Carla Julia b Tamra Smith,
and Tiffany Spurlock. Thank you all for being supporters of
the podcast being in the Double Portion Club. If you
want to be in the club, listener, it's ten bucks
a month. You get AD free episodes and you get
the shout out just for fun. Or you can do
five dollars a month. You can support the podcast the

(01:56):
work that we do and you'll get AD free episodes
and we will send you a holographic cult Nex store sticker. So, Ashley,
do you want to tell the folks about our guests?
Not just this week? Well, I don't know how many
episodes we've got, but for the next few. We had
some really really good conversations with these people.

Speaker 6 (02:15):
Yeah, and we recorded for so many hours and it
was it flew by to me. It was such an
interesting conversation. I've loved all of our guests. This was
one of my favorite sit downs We did it, you know,
in my home, so it was a little cozier than

(02:39):
like being in a studio and also, you know, more
intimate than doing this through video. And it was a couple,
so we got to interview two people at the same time,
which is not something we've done that much of it.

(03:00):
And to be able to hear their stories like individually,
but then also how they intertwined with one another was
just really unique. And I actually got a lot out
of that conversation. I don't know about you, but there
are things that I like, I'm still thinking about that

(03:20):
were said. And uh, this is a couple that I
know in my community in Joplin, Missouri. It's Mitzi and
Jordan's stark Weather. Mitzi is a portrait photographer and a
coach who helps people remember who they are. Jordan is

(03:43):
a writer and creator who looks at media on a
deeper level. Jordan is also an ex pastor and that
just adds a whole really interesting layer to this story.
And I don't know which episode is going to be.

Speaker 2 (04:00):
In, but.

Speaker 6 (04:03):
Mitzi wrote a really, really beautiful poem about uncertainty and
we'll definitely share that. I've already gotten permission from her,
but I think uncertainty is something that well, everyone deals
with that, but especially like when you've been in a

(04:25):
high control, high control group and you're exiting and you
don't know like how you're going to navigate all of
the life things that happen post cult. Uncertainty is just
such a big part of that. And she had a
really interesting, unique take on certainty that I feel like

(04:48):
mitigated the fear of it, just a new way to
look at it a different through a different lens. Also,
we will definitely drop midsies socials. Her photography is incredible.

(05:08):
Maybe I'll share some that she's done of me. She
did a session with me and Lynn, my middle child,
and they were just beautiful. They're gorgeous, and she just
made us feel so at ease because I'm so uncomfortable

(05:29):
in situations like that, but she really made it a
good time and also took pictures of my son Ryan
when it was his senior year of high school, and
so she's just really wonderful. Jordan is also wonderful. It
was really good to get to know Jordan a little

(05:50):
bit better through this podcast. But I really think everyone's
gonna enjoy this.

Speaker 5 (05:57):
Yeah, I think so too, and I really I mean
I've enjoyed pretty much all of our guests, but like
you said, the setting that we had, I think all
of that combined. It just was it was very real
and raw and so comfortable and like they're both wonderful.
Like I I it was one of those like when
we were done, I was like, are we done? Though,

(06:17):
Like we could just sit here and like it was
so comfortable. Like I really not to like use budd buzzwords,
like I really vibed with them. I felt like like
I felt like, yeah, we could be friends, like for sure,
like we just kind of like there's this yeah, I
guess we're you know, dancing to the same beat kind

(06:38):
of thing.

Speaker 1 (06:38):
It was.

Speaker 5 (06:38):
I just really really like them. So I think everyone
listening will I think a lot of that will come through.
I think everybody's gonna fall in love with them, I guess,
is what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, so let's take a listen.

Speaker 6 (06:53):
So this is actually like new for us because I
don't think we've ever interviewed a couple. I know we
have Liz On, but it wasn't like the story of
you and Liz per Se. But this is the first
time we've had a couple, so I'm super excited about that.

Speaker 4 (07:10):
Our stories really, I mean, our story as a couple
is very intertwined with all of this time.

Speaker 6 (07:14):
Oh yes, yeah, and I know you guys have known
each other since you were my kids basically. Yeah, so
like I am, you know, looking from the outside, like
it feels like a journey from full immersion in the
Christian ecosystem, you know, all the way from you know,

(07:36):
Christian college and then pastor pastor's wife and you know,
to where you are now, where you're like in a
season of authenticity and deconstruction and so, Mitzi, we've been
friends for a while and I noticed over the last

(07:56):
few years subtle changes and I was like, I don't
think they're involved in the church anymore. So I've been
really curious this whole time. So I'm super happy that
you guys agreed to talk about this. So let's just
start from the beginning wherever you guys want to dive in.

Speaker 4 (08:18):
Well, let me see, do you want to Why don't you?
Why don't you start with how you were, where you
came from, your background, and you're like how you were raised?

Speaker 1 (08:24):
I love how Ashley, how you were like some subtle changes.
I like, I haven't been loud enough, I guess. Yeah
see yeah, I uh wow. I was raised you know,
in the church thoroughly to my bones, and now I
post topless photos of myself phone. Yeah all the time.

Speaker 6 (08:48):
That was not what I was referring to. I like
a few years ago. It's like something changed.

Speaker 5 (08:54):
Yeah, that seems less true.

Speaker 1 (08:58):
Yes, and I joke about that, but that is I mean,
that's like just a physical manifestation of the journey and
you know, like the freedom I feel now. So yeah,
I was raised evangelical Christian and I love. One of
the things I appreciate about this podcast and like the
episodes I've listened to, is how you guys say like
cults and high control religion because I think I didn't

(09:22):
even dive into a lot of the work or earlier
on when even after I left the church and stuff,
because I was like, well, I wasn't in a cult. Yeah,
because I think we have these like ideas like what
is a cult? Right, Oh, it's this thing and you know, And.

Speaker 4 (09:36):
I would also say, if you're listening to this show
and and there's a and you're still involved in religion,
you should maybe question that a little bit like, look,
look at.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
What what made you click on?

Speaker 4 (09:50):
Because when I was because I used to watch we
used to watch cult documentaries. We used to like we
used to I used to research cults, you know whenever.
And I think part of it is like you're looking
to make sure that you're not in one and trying
to like not you know, I don't know's that's that
was at least part of my journey.

Speaker 1 (10:05):
I think that would put off protesting situation. Yeah. So anyway, Yeah,
so I was raised in I'm actually that was in Canada,
so like Alberta, Canada, which you know, we tend to
think of Canada as a lot more liberal than here,
but like I was from the Alberta side, like Alberta's Yeah,
it's the Texas of Canada, you know. So it's really
interesting too, especially with like the vast majority of my

(10:26):
extended family still being very much in that, you know,
even in another country. And that has also been an
interesting point during this deconstructive process, is like, oh, it's
also what's you know shown me since that you know,
it's a lot more dependent on social class and you know,
a lot of things like that. Anyway, so I was

(10:47):
raised in that with parents who were evangelical Christian, and
uh that would mean church all the time. It was church.

Speaker 4 (10:58):
It was Uh, your parents were also involved in ministry, very.

Speaker 1 (11:02):
Involved in industry. Yes, both of them were. And like
memorizing scripture a lot, like all ways like running of
VBS is doing.

Speaker 4 (11:09):
Your dad Sunday school or your day has whole books
of the Bible memorized.

Speaker 1 (11:12):
Yes, yes, doing Sunday school, like all kinds of volunteering.
There's like really like the identity of our family and
so and I think that's interesting because then when we
moved to the state. So when I was seven and
we moved to Carl Junction and uh, you know, finding
a church around here, like they did find a little bit.

(11:34):
It was interesting, like the culture shock because like going,
you know, trying out, for instance, the Carl Junction Baptist
Church at the time, and we went a few weeks
and then someone at the church said like, no, actually,
if you want to be a member of this church,
you have to be rebaptized here in this church. And
my parents were like, no, I don't think they now
that's weird. So, you know, found a different one. So

(11:57):
we did end up finding like other the church to
be a part of. And yeah, so we spent a
lot of time at Christ Church of Ornogo and that
was like the church that I guess I was kind
of raised in. And you know, by the by the
sermon tape every Sunday on tape it was a dollar.
We'd sing, We'd sing a Sunday school song the way
to school. Everybody ought to go to Sunday school. I

(12:21):
thought that this was normal. I thought, no, we would
sing the Sunday school song. Uh, like church that that
was our world. Listened to christ They love loving moving
to the States because they're like, you have Christian radio
stations here. This is amazing, and like listening to KOBC
all the time. You know, the only non Christian music
I was raised with that I thank my parents for

(12:44):
was thanks to and yeah yeah, oh yeah still the
Goat and my dad's record collection that he still kept
in the basement. So you know, lost what happens to that.
You know, I did have some moments, but you know,
normally it was like you know, Amy Grant, and.

Speaker 4 (13:05):
I think it's I think your family's history is so
fascinating to me too. I mean it's basically we've noticed
there for so long. Your family has felt like my
second family since we were teenagers. And like, your family's
history is also so interesting to me because like your
mother is like I mean, they're both they're both brilliant.
Your parents are both so so so smart, and your
mother's like gone, she went she like hiked through Europe

(13:26):
and like went and met guys like Francis Schaeffer and
like debated him on like theology and stuff like that,
and like your yeah, it's it's like for you or
your family like it. I remember when I first encountered
you guys in high school. It was so different to
me from like the types of Christians that I had encountered.
Because your mother, your mother also was a professor.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yeah, so she was a professor of English. It was
our Christian college. That was the only thing they would
let her be a professor of Yes, even though she
had a master's in theology and.

Speaker 4 (13:53):
She yeah could have probably and used to be a.

Speaker 1 (13:55):
Honister and yeah, but yeah, they so they let her
teach English. So she taught there. My dad's been an
engineer his whole life, but he was almost a minister almost,
and then he decided to be an engineer, So yeah,
that's kind of that background. And yeah, we were raised
really uh.

Speaker 4 (14:17):
It's yeah, it's purity culture, baby, pur.

Speaker 1 (14:21):
Purity culture, yes, and very much authority, you know, like spanking, yes,
but I didn't spank my mom. Wasn't that thing, which,
like I didn't know that was the thing until I
listened to episodes of your podcast. But it's like no,
it makes sense though, like why wouldn't maybe, And uh,

(14:46):
I guess I downplayed it for a long time because
we I always kind of told the story like, well,
I got spained once and then I learned, so I
never had it again. And and my sister, on the
other hand, that was very different, and it's her story
to tell. She's open about it, but she was kind
of the office it with it, like she was. She
fought back a lot more. And like, but I was
the oldest, and I just you know, I learned from

(15:07):
a young age that it was my responsibility to just
be okay. You know. It was very much a household,
which I think this is this is true of a
lot of the people in my family. Instead of like
how are you feeling, it's are you okay? Okay? And
then just if not get to the point where you

(15:29):
appear you are right right, and I you know, and
that's something that I see very much in that high
control religion world, like okay.

Speaker 6 (15:37):
It's less of actually wanting to know if the person
is okay. It's a signal that you need to start
being okay.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
You need to look exactly at least obedient over authenticity
or honesty. And that's something that you know, since I
left the church and began the deconstruction process about you know,
eight nine years ago, that's something that you know, I've
been able to really put the words around and how
my relationship has changed with my family and especially with
my parents, where I because I value honesty and I'd

(16:06):
rather be honest with someone than try to act a
certain way so that they approve of me or make
myself acceptable to them. Because yeah, and I'm going too
much into the reflections now, we can cover that later.
But yeah, So going through that, I was I was
actually the purest. So by the time I was a teenager,

(16:29):
I actually did it. I wanted purity. I was so pure.
I was just I was really amazing and I didn't
swear and I didn't gossip. Oh yeah, yeah, I actually.
So it's interesting because the purity culture. Like my dad,
I don't think he was like super into it. He
wasn't like I asked him to buy anyone. He's like, okay,

(16:50):
we were. I was like all right, like I don't know,
he didn't like you know, but I was just like
I was so like I have to have like, you know,
my purity ring. And we went to like the purity
retreats like with our mom.

Speaker 4 (17:02):
Dude, you were the best rule follower I was. You
were so right, I was.

Speaker 1 (17:07):
I was. I was so modest, so modest when I
my boobs got like all the cammis the the way,
like when my boobs really just exploded the summer before
freshman year. No, sorry, the summer before uh sophomore year. Yeah, Jordan,
He'stoke's like you would you went to Canada to visit
your family, breed some of that fresh mountain air. Yeah.

(17:29):
I came back after that summer, but I so I
doubled down on sports broads. Doubled down, oh right, because
it calls the boys to stumble right off. It's my responsibility. Yes, yes,
And there was like a guy in my youth group
that we were like into each other, and he wasn't
allowed to date though, and so like we were, we
would like write each other letters, we'd like played card

(17:50):
games at youth group, all this stuff, and you know,
really liked each other and everything that wasn't allowed to date.
But then in the meantime I met Jordan, and my
story time, Jordan was a lot to date. Go ahead.

Speaker 4 (18:04):
So I grew up here in Joff, Missouri, and my mother,
my dad, he is the owner operator of the Chick
fil a is in the area, and my mother was
she had sort of like she'd grown up in a
highly abusive home, very very abusive home, and just you know,
wanted to get out as soon as possible, essentially, And

(18:25):
so her and my dad got married very young. They
both were super into movies and dated and worked the
movie theaters here in town, and which is actually how
he got in, you know, kind of picked for Chick
fil A, which is a cool story. But anyway, but
like they uh, because he didn't even like you know, grant,
he think he dropped out of college his freshman year
or something like that. Still wound up being an operator
because he did such a great job with the movie
theaters here in town. But so him and my mom

(18:46):
dated and then they got married really young, and then
they had me and uh in the eighties, and they
got and my mother had had converted to Christianity when
she was a teenager, but she was a pretty kind
of rebellious you know team before that. And her parents
were yeah, yeah, her her parents were more like, I
would say, like kind of the nominal sort of you know,

(19:06):
just cultural, Yeah, God's good for your morals. I guess,
we don't go to church like whatever. And my mom
converted and just went like hard into me, and so
they were actually I grew up in a church. I
don't know the exact background, but I know there was
a documentary on sort of the you know, the movement
or something, but I don't know what it was called exactly,
but it was a very conservative movement and they were

(19:28):
very like and they were very like pro homeschool, very
anti like TV anti like you know, like disengaged from
culture essentially, and all of that. I didn't really know
it because honestly, to me as a kid, it just
felt like we had, you know, a really cool group
of friends we hung out with all the time. I
just sort of hung out with the same kids and
knew everyone in our small older church. They were in

(19:49):
web City, and I remember the name of the church.
And it's interesting now too, because the pastor of that church,
he's gone on to be to have bit more of
a liberal theology these days, and his kids have gone
on to some of them come out out as queer
and it's very odd, but it's like they were sort
of a weird, super conservative hippie you know, fundamentalist church
movement thing, and uh, that's that's what I grew up

(20:11):
and not allowed to celebrate Halloween. You know, it's a
There was someone who there was a guy who asked, oh, yeah,
my mom loved horror movies and all this. I love
my mom. We don't we're not in contact anymore, but like,
I love my mom And it just breaks my heart
because I just there's just this incredibly cool person in
there that is just like covered in the mental illness

(20:31):
and the trauma that she refuses to address, which breaks
my heart. But she Uh, there was like there was
a guy who asked me, there's a story of my
parents love to tell. A guy who asked me, I
thinking when I was four or five, Oh, so what
are you gonna be for Halloween. I looked at him
square in the eyes and said, I don't. We don't
celebrate pagan holidays. Oh okay, it was, which is awesome,

(20:53):
but like, so yeah, they had me, they had my brothers.
We were still involved in that church, and uh and
I just grew up and I've gone back in and
watched our home videos and it's like it's so interesting
because you can just my mom and dad videotaped everything
when I was a baby and when I was a
small child, and it's just like everything is Jesus, everything is.
Like she would glue together the page I was super

(21:13):
into dinosaurs. Still I am in a dinosaurs and we'll
talk about that in a little while. But she would
glue together the pages of my books that talked about evolution,
like she would she would glue together the pages that
had like you know, the like the cavemen and stuff,
and so I wasn't allowed to look at those, and
there was and there was a lot of stuff like that,
a lot of things. And that's I remember growing up
like that, knowing that there was a lot of things

(21:34):
out there that I was not allowed to engage with
because they were dangerous. Ideas and and I which I
pushed back against really hard, even in my you know
walk as a pastor and as a Christian like later on,
but I'll get to that. But anyway, so we were,
I grew up and I grew up in all that
through the nineties. We and eventually my parents had a

(21:56):
really messy divorce in the mid nineties. I was I
had been put into this private Christian school here in town,
and I pulled out a homeschool. My mom tried to
homeschool me for a couple of years. I have severe ADHD,
like very severe ADHD, and she could not do it.
She could not manage it. She tried, and so they

(22:17):
put me into a private Christian school here in town.
My parents split up, and eventually I wound up going
to you know, jop On public schools and kind of
going between both of their houses. And once they split up,
their religious walks changed quite a bit. I would say,
like they they became much more flexible. It was just
confusing for a child because suddenly my mom is like
having guys who come spend the night sometimes and like,

(22:38):
my we're not talking about Jesus as much, but it's
like still an expectation, like my dad's like saying, I'll
give you money for memorizing these Bible verses. But then like,
you know, there's there's like behaviors aren't lining up in
my head with like how we were living before and
and looking back on it now, I'm like, well, they're
both growing adults. I have no resentment about any of that,
but it was very confusing as a child, Like it
was like what's going on here? And so what are

(22:59):
the rules? And eventually my both my parents remarried and
in the late nineties, and uh, we started going to
and I wasn't gonna use any church names that we
already brought up Forest Park Baptists, so I'll bring up
Forest part Bank because we started going to Forest Park
Baptist Church on my mom's side, and my my my
dad and my stepmom still you know, went to a
different church that they still attend today, which is a

(23:20):
little more charismatic, you know, speaking in tongues sometimes and
stuff like that, which really freaked me out. As a kid.
I was not I didn't know what to make of that.
But Forest Park was like, for me, such an oppressive environment.
I really did not enjoy my time there, I really
found it to be. And this is you know, in
the two thousands, who knows what it's like now, but

(23:42):
my time there in the in the nineties as well,
But I found I found it to be very just
like sit down, shut up, you know, be seen not
heard sort of thing. And uh. And also I'm you know,
I'm burgeoning adolescent. I'm coming into my adolescence, so I
think that's part of it too, as I'm starting to
like question a lot of this. And at the same time,
you know, I'm living primarily with my mother and visiting

(24:03):
my dad, you know, once a week and every other weekend.
And uh, the abuse starts in my in my house
with my mom and my stepdad as soon as my
I sort of kind of hit ado lessons. I'm sure
that lines up a little bit with some of that.
But physical, emotional, verbal, you know, abuse just just straight
up and it's not just it's not just and I
was always spanked, you know, which I still consider now

(24:25):
physical abuse, but like now it is like getting scream dad,
getting slapped, getting you know, all kinds of stuff, and
and my grades start slipping you know a lot around
this time as well, and I start struggling in school.
And also we're like getting up and going to church
every Sunday. Get your get your khaki is quick hoss
on this podcast, I'm not sure. Oh yes, okay, get
your fucking khakis on, get your get your fucking polo on.

Speaker 1 (24:49):
And it's like Jordan was like a punk kid.

Speaker 4 (24:51):
Yeah, Like I was like, oh yeah, I was like
shoving Rancid t shirts into my backpack to change into
at school because my mom was like, you have to
wear dress like and so and you know, you can't
embarrass me and you have to like look like this.
And meanwhile, I'm like, you know, involved in like three
different bands and like sneaking out to like go go
to band practice and like all this stuff. And so yeah,

(25:13):
I'm just like and we're spending all this time before't
part Baptist Church, which is just a huge building, massive
building here in town, tons of great places to sneak
off with girls. It's awesome. That's basically how I wind
up spending a lot of my time at church. It's
just like getting involved with the other troubled kids at
the church, finding ways to sneak off and do our
own thing and and whatever, and that becomes the church

(25:33):
for me is very like it's it's very you know,
just driven by behavior, just like very legalistic. I guess
we would say, I haven't used that word in a
long time. Very legalistic, very like rules driven in a
way to me that doesn't make any sense because it's
like we go to church on Sunday and act like
everything's great, and then I go home and get beat
you know, and get cussed at and get and hear

(25:55):
my parents use slurs and and not my parents, my dad,
I should say, my mom. So I don't want to
throw my dad into the bus with some of the stuff.
And I love my dad too, and we had a
lot of disagreements, but we still have a great relationship.
And you know, I think some of his his views
and a lot of these things have changed over the years,
but he's always been very That's one of the things
I love about him is he's I think he's a
reasonable person. He's a person willing to accept criticism and

(26:18):
change and grow, which is why him and I still
have a relationship. But my mother, sadly, and my stepfather
were not those people.

Speaker 1 (26:24):
And Jordan's Mom's sorry, Jordan's dad and stepmom like my
in laws and I love dearly, like like we told
them we were coming on this podcast. Yeah, and they're like,
oh cool, you know, and like that's something. It's there's
something to be said for the people who like can
just let other people believe differently, and it's really a

(26:47):
beautiful thing. And like that having family members like that,
because I've been married to Jordan was the first time
I ever experienced that. Yeah, and it's like, oh wow.

Speaker 4 (26:56):
Yeah, very that's great.

Speaker 6 (26:59):
For sure.

Speaker 4 (27:00):
I shall also mentioned too that on my dad's side,
my grandma and my grandpa, they lived out of town,
but they eventually moved back when I was about twelve.
Incredible people. Still the best Christians I've ever encountered, ever
met my grandma. My grandpa passed away in twenty nineteen sadly,
but my grandma is still with us, and she is
just like, if I have any helpe left in Christianity whatsoever,

(27:20):
it is because of my grandmother.

Speaker 1 (27:21):
She is just one of them, because she acts like Jesus.

Speaker 4 (27:24):
She is just one of the most kindest, like just thoughtful, humble,
just incredible people. And so you know, and she's she's
still involved, very involved in my life during this time
as well, even through the abuse. And she still is, Yeah,
she still is. Yeah. And there's a lot of resentment
I've had over the years because I think that people
in my family knew what was happening on my mom's side,
and no one was speaking up or stopping any or

(27:45):
stopping any of it. And they might say, now like, oh,
we didn't know, but you know I was talking about it.
People could have picked up on it. They looked a
little closer, and obviously had we had, like you know,
child dfs call on us like multiple times from teachers
or neighbors or what ever, and so like there they
they must people had to have known something. I know
that people at Forest Park knew. I know that their

(28:06):
marriage counselor at least knew I knew. I know several
of the pastors knew. I know I had told I
had told people in the church about what was happening,
like you know, Sunday school teachers. No one ever did
a thing.

Speaker 6 (28:16):
Make sense of that?

Speaker 4 (28:18):
People are people? How do I make sense of that?
I don't trust adults grew Adults are selfish and and
will do anything to keep the status quo and save
face and uh and they will lie and protect each
other just to keep things, uh, to keep the waters steady,

(28:40):
I guess, and to to not to not cause too
many ripples. And so yeah, that was sort of what
I was growing up in. Eventually, of course, my mom
and stepdad had also had an extremely messy divorce, very intense,
you know, ended with like the cops called I won't
go into detail about, you know, the most traumatic one
of the most traumatic nights of my life, but it

(29:02):
was a horrible, horrible situation where we wound up. Yeah,
it's just awful and a lot of horrible things said,
a lot of horrible things done. And the person who
wound up coming that evening, the only person that wound
up coming that evening to help me was my youth
minister from from Forest Park. He was actually our neighbor,

(29:23):
lived a couple of blocks away, and he somehow heard
about it, showed up, you know, sat down with me,
you know, listened to me. I don't remember the conversation,
but cried with me, and still love Chris Good. Chris
is a great guy, you know, he was. We put
him through hell and that youth ministry man, Oh my god,
that's the things we would do just playing full on

(29:43):
episodes of Family Guy on the Church projector and then
playing friggin Blink what eighty two uncensored like on the
church bus and just oh, we ran him ragged. And
he was very like passive, like not passive, but just
like he was a very like peacekeeper kind of guy.
And he just ran that show and he was he
was a great guy. And I still really appreciate, you know,

(30:06):
what he did for me that night, and it really
it really changed my life anyways, because you know, I
was like my whole life blew up that night. Even
though it was a horrible house, it was a horrible
home to grow up in, it was like it's still
your family. I had two step siblings and.

Speaker 1 (30:19):
You were right on the club almost turning eighteen.

Speaker 4 (30:21):
Yes I was. Yeah, I was in my late teens.
And it all just blows up in one night. And
and then I the next day, I get a call
and I'm going to go live with my dad, Like, okay,
go home with your dad. And I'm like, I guess
that's over. And so I moved in with my dad.
Eventually my mom took my youngest brother, actually she took
him that night, and we were separated from him. So
it's me and my middle brother. My youngest brother was

(30:43):
separated and was living with her. And and yeah, I
was like, and I didn't I didn't go. I think
I went back to Forest Park a couple of times
on my own, but I mostly moved on and went
somewhere else. And and but it still stuck with me
that the person who was there for me that night
was my youth pastor. And it made me want to,
you know, help teenagers. Somehow I didn't. I didn't know

(31:05):
how I wanted to do that. But around here, you know,
it's I think it's hard to explain to people who
don't grow up in an area like this either. You know,
we're in the Bible Belt. Like you, you look at
your future and there's just not that many options you
don't see, especially in a smaller town. You don't see
like you know, I grew up in I was I've
always been like an artist, creative, and like I, I
couldn't see a future in that because I didn't know

(31:26):
anyone who went to an art school and I didn't
know what that looked like. And I didn't have the
internet as much as we do the day of course,
and so it was like, how do I help people?
I guess I could go work in a church somewhere,
but I'm getting a little ahead of myself there. But anyway,
so all that happened, life blew up and I and
before I even went down the road I was just
talking about, I was like, yeah, fuck this and just

(31:48):
start a partying. It's a standing partying and drinking and
going out more. And and my dad, you know, bless
his heart, he was much more i'd say his parenting
style was much more passive, much a little more disengaged,
a little more like, yeah, okay, you're big enough, figured
it out. And it's got to be hard too, when
you've grown accustomed to living with your wife and having
your kids once a week and every other weekend to

(32:08):
suddenly like they you're very troubled, very traumatized teenage children
are now in your home all the time. It's time,
Like that's going to be hard. I do feel for
him in that regard, but I don't think he was
quite prepared to deal with all that. And so I, yeah,
I wound up pushing back hard and just kind of
using when you found freedom to do whatever the fuck
I wanted and make a lot of bad mistakes. And

(32:30):
it was. And I was also just a hurting kid
who wasn't didn't get put in therapy, didn't get put
into like anything to help with this. I was also
I should also mention involved in a cult during this time.
I the church, the church that I like, like a
cult cult like the church that I went to that
I left for Forest Park for was very different, was

(32:51):
very charismatic, and it was actually a church that there's
a youth There was a guy in the area who's
a youth pastor. He got fired from his church and
went off and started his own using his teens. And
this church was made up of all the like misfits
and rejects and kids from like like all like it
was all punk and like hardcore and emo kids like
this whole church. And so to me, I'm like, oh,

(33:13):
hell yeah, this is like this is like finally I
found my people. But in reality, it was a bunch
of very easy, like easily manipulated you know, kids and
young people who were looking for a place to belong.
And he, oh man, he knew exactly what to say
and exactly how to how to do that. He actually
went on. He's still in the area. I'm not going
to say his name, but I I have, Man, that

(33:35):
guy's something else. He went on to run his own
like self help program.

Speaker 1 (33:40):
And he's always adapting the snake.

Speaker 4 (33:43):
Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely one of those. And yeah, I
was involved with them during this time as well, and
h and thought it was helping and so so during
this whole time, I'm still like, even though I'm like
doing all this stuff, I'm still in my head, I'm
still like, yeah, I'm a Christian, and I could even
be very legalistic. Like I had friends who would, like,
you know, do something, and I'm sure they have memory
of me being like, you gotta stop cussing, man, or
like you got to stop smoking, man, you gotta stop drinking.

(34:05):
Like even though I'm like doing shit, it's like it's
very it's very weird. It was like I still found
a lot of comfort in that, in that legalism and
that like just I don't know. It was very strange.
So during all of this, in the midst of all this,
I meet Mitzi.

Speaker 1 (34:19):
Yeah, we were like buds. In French class. Yeah, creative
writing class.

Speaker 4 (34:24):
I turned, I turned around, I saw there was this
girl entered my creative writing class. My friend Rick, one
of my best friends from forth Park, actually he like
said something to you. He called you. He made some
can't joke about you being Canadian. I was like what,
Like they had a girls Canadian and Potangili and I
was like, oh, that's your full name metangially and I
was like, oh, that's a cool name. I wonder where

(34:44):
her story is. And then I hear you sit behind
me in French class and I turn around one day
and I say, I like your jacket, Can I have it?

Speaker 1 (34:53):
How my forever twenty one like zip up brown with
like the tree on it all the time.

Speaker 5 (34:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:59):
And I was like no, no, and.

Speaker 4 (35:04):
And then I was starting a band with my friend Chris,
and I heard you saying you played a keyboard in
your worship band.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
And I was like, Jordan was so cute because Jordan
was the only one, like one of the only ones
at our school who wore girl jeans, you know, back
in like two thousand and five.

Speaker 4 (35:17):
And I was like, foreshadowing is a narrative device.

Speaker 1 (35:21):
Foreshadowing interesting, It is now better at Eyelander than I am.

Speaker 4 (35:29):
I was pretty good at that then too.

Speaker 1 (35:30):
I went to like shop for my clothes for me anyway. Yeah,
So funny, isn't it isn't that crazy? How Like it's
like you always know who you are? Yeah you know,
yeah yeah, but if you're in a under system that's
designed to make you, like, I don't know, be so

(35:51):
afraid of not conforming that you'll die, then we'll just
yeah push that aside.

Speaker 4 (35:56):
So I like, so, yeah, I met Missy and I
was like, I was like, I need to Honestly, I
already had a little bit of a crush on her,
but I just I just thought she was cool, honestly,
But I and a lot of my friends were girls.
A lot of my friends were always girls. So I
was just like another another one for the pile. It
wasn't even like that much of like a romantic attraction initially,
but I was just like, I needed keyboards from my band.
She seems really cool, and so I found out she

(36:18):
played keyboard. I was like, do you have a keyboard?
And she's like no, And I said okay, And I
went home and got our band fund of like a
few hundred dollars and gave it to you. I said,
go buy one. You're going to play keyboard for him?
So she did.

Speaker 1 (36:28):
And then our other bandmate never showed.

Speaker 6 (36:29):
Up to band.

Speaker 4 (36:30):
He would always flake out. So we'd basement sitting next
to each other in your computer chair watching I don't
know what on bach Thai Warrior or watching like watching
like martial arts movies are like listening to music, like
showing each other bands on MySpace, and and so we
just threw all those and your parents like they knew,

(36:51):
they could tell, they could see it coming. And they
were not fans, they could that they could see it.
They could see this like this bond forming. And we
were just like really we were just really good friends, honestly,
really like those days were so fun, just hanging out together.

Speaker 1 (37:04):
And then yeah, and then I'd have d dr parties
at my house because you're really we are those were
I w yeah, and to me too, like we weren't
like into drinking or anything, but like I'd invite like
my like you because I was really into youth, your
bathfat time I had gotten so Jordan was really not.
So I this was like so this during this fall,
right around the time that Jordan's life changed in that
big way. This was just a couple of months after

(37:25):
I like got baptized, so like I was more churchier
than ever I was, because I got baptized after like
you know CEIY, the big you know, summer conference thing.

Speaker 6 (37:37):
Okay, so you don't. I was fifteen and what in
your church you don't get baptized like as a child.

Speaker 1 (37:42):
No, okay, no, it was very much you choose to
do it. Okay, yeah grew Okay, Yeah, yeah it was. Yeah.
I wasn't. Yeah I wasn't like a christening or anything,
but yeah, it was like you choose and then you're in.
Like that's when you're like, I am going for it.
So yeah committed. So I did that. And so Jordan's
was like a great, like little project for me.

Speaker 5 (38:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (38:05):
Friends, I was like I was so I was so lost.

Speaker 1 (38:07):
I was like, Jordan's so lost, I've got to show
him the way.

Speaker 4 (38:11):
Jordan's so hurting and sad.

Speaker 6 (38:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:13):
And the guy like a youth group, his parents won't
want to dates the.

Speaker 4 (38:17):
Guy, the guy she likes at youth group that she says,
her kind of boyfriend. That people that him and I
look so similar. People keep confusing us. I keep getting
called as a name in public, which she she absolutely has.
The type, which is which is so funny, but so
like it kind of comes to a head where were
we're really close friends and she like, I don't know
how this happened exactly. I'm not going to go but

(38:38):
there was like a day when I said something about
like your fake boyfriend, and you got really offended, really.

Speaker 1 (38:43):
Mad your fake boyfriend. I was like, I was so
mad because I'm just like we're saving ourselves for each other.
But I was like I'm at this point, right, you
see my purity? Yeah, but I but also I will
say like I had had I'd had like one boyfriend
like freshman year, and it was like it was dumb, yeah,

(39:03):
and like we had like one kiss, but that was
like physically as far as I'd gone with anyone. Like
I was very much like I will not do anything
but kiss before I'm married, like ring on the finger.
Just like to me, that was the non negotiable. When
I said, like I was the purest of them all,
like that was my high horse. Like, and I had

(39:24):
friends in high school who like I lost friendships over
because I was so much on a high horse and
maybe they'd have sex with their boyfriend and then I
like find out for the grape through the grapevine. But
they didn't even feel like they could tell me, because
they do I judge them so hard. Yeah, you know,
I was just.

Speaker 4 (39:37):
Just and I was not doing that. I I was
having a great time and also judging people who were
doing it. I was I was having a great time
and feeling very guilty about it. That's what That's kind
of what I was saying.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
I was, Yeah, you were just being a normal teach.

Speaker 4 (39:50):
Just being a very normal teenager, honestly. But it's like,
and I think that's one of the things that like,
it's like there's this repression, right that comes with all
this where you like you're living a life where you're
like not being on with yourself about who you are
and what you want, what you need and the questions
that you have and what life is and what's normal
and what's not, and you're like feeling guilty about all
these things that like you look back on and it's

(40:11):
just like if I could just go back and give
that kid a hug.

Speaker 1 (40:14):
You know, and just be like, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (40:16):
You're fine, Like you're you're okay, like, and it's the
pain that you feel is actually what is being done
to you, you know, not what you are doing anyway.

Speaker 6 (40:27):
But you're really not allowed to go through the developmental stages, right, yeah,
and you're shamed for for wanting those things and you
don't realize that's totally normal.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
Yeah, oh absolutely. And I mean like and for me
with all of that, like I was so disconnected from
my body from such a young age, like you know,
I just I was just so afraid to go there,
like I just wouldn't like at all, like even just
on my own, just completely right. And it was and
also just so much of that, you know, in my household.

(41:00):
It was the way my mom talked about it, like oh,
that's just what men want, and that's what you know.
And in the culture, it's like it's it's such a
removal of like a woman's own like her own sexual identity.

Speaker 4 (41:13):
That tape that watch, Oh my god, oh my god.

Speaker 1 (41:15):
Yes we have to bring that up.

Speaker 4 (41:16):
Keep that in your brain, yes, okay, I'm locking it in.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
Keep that in your brain, yes, okay. But yeah, it's
like all that stuff. And so it's like, you know,
that played into our relationship a lot, because you know,
here I'm like, oh, Jordan is has just the all
that stuff, and here I am like, holy impure. But
I was completely shut off from myself, like I wasn't
willing to admit I'm queer. I wasn't a milling to
willing to admit that, like I would even want to
have sex with any human that you know or that

(41:41):
you know, because I was so disconnected from myself and
my body because I truly thought it belonged to anyone
but me, like it belonged to like God first and
then my dad and then my future husband. And when
you when you treat it like that, it's like, well,
it never belongs to you, and it makes it made
me disconnect from myself in freeway and to never yeah,

(42:03):
trust myself or like be like what do you want
in this situation? Or when the you know, it's like
talk about boundaries. I was actually I had to swing
by Walmart this morning and I was looking at I
saw like the clothes and it said no boundaries, like
the brand, and I just looked at it. I forgot
to take a picture, and I want to be like,
oh me when I was under high control religion, like

(42:23):
no boundaries because it's like, well it's not yours. You
can't put boundaries around something you don't own.

Speaker 6 (42:27):
True.

Speaker 1 (42:28):
So, and it's like, on the one hand, it's sold
to you like, oh, you have such good boundaries around
your your sexuality, your flower or your you know, your
gift whatever like whatever, and it's like no, because you can't.
You can't even give something away unless you own it first.
That's you can't you know, any of that. It's like
it's just removing, yeah, the ownership. And that's been one

(42:49):
of the hugest journeys and of course has affected yea
our relationship. But Jordan like has always been such an
advocate for me for like no, like tap into your sexuality,
like who are you really like all of that, because
you know, that's something where when you're socialized as a
woman under these systems, of course it doesn't belong to you.
Shut up, and you're weird if it does. Oh yeah,
oh that's what you know. We even make jokes in

(43:11):
you Oh, all the boys when they have their discipleship group,
they just talk about how long it's been since they
masturbated home and get mad at each other for it.
But girls, that was like the joke, right, and then
it's like we girls, we didn't even talk. Girls don't
master like why would we know, we we talk about
all how long you didn't read your Bible every morning?

Speaker 6 (43:32):
Right, that's right?

Speaker 1 (43:33):
Yeah, yeah, you're oh you've been, you've been over, you've
gained some weight. You need to be honoring the body
that God gave, right, Like it's so fucked up anyway.

Speaker 6 (43:49):
So it was masturbation like just totally taboo for boys
and absolutely as okay, yeah that's for your future spouse.

Speaker 4 (44:00):
Yeah yeah, yeah and I but.

Speaker 6 (44:03):
You know, it's supposed to spill your seat on the ground.

Speaker 5 (44:06):
That's what the episode.

Speaker 4 (44:08):
That's a whole different ball game. That's a whole different story.
We don't go. We don't talk about that one. It's different,
it's different. That was he that was the pull out
math that he wasn't masturbating. I literally sat, I literally
sat the way class at my college that talked about that.

Speaker 1 (44:22):
Jesus he didn't talk about it though, Jesus didn't.

Speaker 4 (44:25):
No, he didn't talk about it. Sure didn't, didn't.

Speaker 6 (44:29):
You know?

Speaker 1 (44:30):
He definitely they just forgot God. Definitely.

Speaker 4 (44:33):
Okay, Well I don't know about that. Well, who knows, maybe,
but I don't know.

Speaker 6 (44:36):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (44:38):
Possibly, Oh my gosh, we're Martin Scorsese.

Speaker 3 (44:41):
Over here whatever.

Speaker 1 (44:43):
I still don't really have any issues with him.

Speaker 4 (44:46):
Yeah, no, ye any but the so anyway we're going
we're going through all this. We're both and we're hanging
out with friends. I bring the thing with your fake
boyfriend and I and you get really offended and it
kind of comes to a head on mson messenger where
we're talking later that night, which for the kids who
are yeah and not thirty eight, this is like the
kids aren't thirty eight. This is how we texted before

(45:07):
we could text, and and so we're just we're actually
back and forth, and she basically like calls me on.
She's like and I didn't really even realize that I
was like in love with her, but she called me on.
She was like, just say what you really mean. She's like,
stop being a coward basically, and I was like, WHOA,
Like no one's ever like called me a coward before.
And I realized that. I was like, Oh, I'm into her.

(45:28):
That's why I'm like, I think it's stupid she has
this s fate boyfriend because I want to date her,
and and she and she called it and so eventually I,
you know, yeah, and and you were like I want
to date but but I don't think you're ready yet,
and you won't be ready until God tells me you're ready.
And I was like, Okay, well it's time to get ready.

(45:49):
And so I got.

Speaker 1 (45:50):
And I was the fearest of them all. I was
really close to God. I was actually like, yeah, the
closest right right right there. So I was like, he'll
tell me, and so I got really.

Speaker 4 (46:03):
Yeah, for sure, yes, And I got really involved with
with her church and and and honestly, and some of this,
I think, I think a lot of looking back, a
lot of this was because I just I wanted to
date her and I was in love with her, but
also like for myself too, I had to mention this earlier.
But her family, you know, going over there all the time,

(46:24):
going there so much, had become my second family. And
and to me, they were so much more stable. From
the outside looking in, it was like I had grown
up in a house with no structure, with just chaos
and screaming and hitting and fighting, and her family was
like the opposite of that, and and but also had
the opposite problems.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
Right, We didn't yell at each other. We all have
a horrible digesticy. Yes, we didn't yell at yeah, exactly,
it was.

Speaker 4 (46:51):
And so for for me, like and also like growing
like I, you know, I needed a mother figure and
her mother was very important to me during that time
of my life. We got along very well because she
also so my mother was always like if you if
you had a question about your faith or whatever, she
was like, that's what faith is for. Don't talk to
me about this.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
Like I.

Speaker 4 (47:08):
She didn't have any answers. It was like it was
one of those things, you know, like where you just
just trust me. It's just what it is, and that's
what it is. Her mom was much more I found
much more appealing because her mom was, you know, a professor.
It was our Christian college, and was had read books
on you know, philosophy and how to defend your faith
and and you know all these what's what's what's the
word for that? Now I've forgotten the word for it.

(47:29):
It's been so long since I talked about this, but
there's a there's a word they use for defending your faith.
And she was like very into that stuff. And so
her and I would have debates and talk about these
these theological issues, these more heavier issues, which was always
more what I was interested in anyway. And so I
just I was like, wow, like this, Oh my gosh,
it wasn't it wasn't that this was all fake and
that this was all you know, performance It's that I

(47:50):
wasn't at the right church. It'said I need to be.
I don't want to be. I want this, I want
to be part of this. And so I got really
involved with her and her family. And I will say,
this is at Christ Church of War and no Go
and I still have a lot of love for a
lot of folks there. They're obviously a very influential church.

Speaker 1 (48:04):
I mean it's like it is.

Speaker 4 (48:07):
They weren't even close to how big they are these
things back then. But it was even back then those
it was a good sized church. And uh And honestly,
like I loved it. I loved it. I really loved
I really loved CCO. I loved being in the youth
group there. I loved the the vibe. I really liked
how how the teacher, the teaching staff and the pastors
talked about God and in ways I hadn't heard before.

(48:29):
You know, what was the tagline for the youth group
back then? It was like, it's about It's about religion,
it's about relationship, not religions.

Speaker 1 (48:37):
And I remember religion, it's about a relation.

Speaker 4 (48:40):
And I remember reading that, and I had never heard
anything like that before at the time, and to me
that that felt very called refuge, very progressive. It was
called refuge I was the name of the youth group,
which like, uh, my life, my life at the time,
it's like, that's exactly what I'm looking for. It's a
refuge and and and I and you know, I'll get
more into this whenever I talked about my journey as

(49:00):
a pastor. But I think, I genuinely think and I
know there's some horror stories. Obviously, there's horror stories. I
can tell you some and I've listened to your podcasts,
and there's horror stories. But the vast majority of pastors
that I've encountered like they genuinely want to help people.
They genuinely want to like it's not about the power,
it's about I want to help folks, and I want

(49:21):
to come alongside folks who need help and beat that
person that they need. And I think there's absolutely some
pastors at the CCO who who who who aligned with that,
and you know, made a huge difference in my life
and I don't want to throw them under the bus.
At the same time, Mitzi like grabbing grown up in
that movement. It's like you like, the purity culture is there,

(49:42):
the insular community is there, and being part of an
insular community feels awesome when you're part of that community,
when you fit into it, when you when you And.

Speaker 1 (49:53):
The thing about the rules that I love, right because
I mean, especially now knowing that I'm autistic, is when
you have rules and structure, then you know exactly what
you have to do to be accepted.

Speaker 6 (50:07):
Yeah, certainty, it's.

Speaker 1 (50:09):
Certainty, oh absolutely, And it's well, as long as I
do this, then I'm going to be okay. As long
as I do this, as long as I don't do this,
as long as I repress this yes and instead convince
myself of this other thing, then I'm not going to
be outcast from the tribe, because like that's what that's
what this does, right, Like that's how they get you.
It's like, you know, any type of cultish anything like

(50:30):
that's you know, at the root of it is like sameness. Yeah,
sameness and sameness that ends up uh benefiting the people
at the top usually not sameness for sameness sake, the
sameness with an agenda usually.

Speaker 4 (50:48):
But yeah, well, to fast forward a little bit, eventually
God told us both that we were ready to start dating.

Speaker 1 (50:56):
I tried to hold my hand at the Super Bowl part.

Speaker 4 (50:58):
No, I forgot about.

Speaker 1 (50:59):
But then day before Valentie to.

Speaker 4 (51:01):
Say, I forgot that even because I.

Speaker 1 (51:03):
Don't remember any detail from any Super Bowl party of
my entire life except.

Speaker 4 (51:08):
That I remember that. I remember that Daniel Jackson we
were watching when when when the Jana Jackson happened? We
were watching that a youth group at.

Speaker 1 (51:18):
Watching at the house of one of our church friends
that we were that's awesome. Yeah, I was out of
the room though, I was playing the kids, and then
I heard about the uproar and I was like, dang,
I missed the booth.

Speaker 4 (51:28):
Just watching that on the projector like in the youth
group room at Forest Park, just like, oh my god,
we were all.

Speaker 6 (51:36):
There.

Speaker 4 (51:37):
That's so funny, Oh my god. And then everybody blamed her.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
Because they're, oh right, she's an evil yea. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (51:44):
Anyway, so yeah, we eventually we eventually started dating.

Speaker 6 (51:48):
How did God let you?

Speaker 4 (51:50):
Yeah, like I genuinely like it was gosh, I I
I have had some very some very powerful experiences. I'm
still not sure how I feel about and that I
still reflect on and and but I mean genuinely it
was like through prayer and like through you know, like

(52:10):
a like we both literally the same night just like
reached out and said, hey, hey, I think yeah, me too,
and like it was just like it was like a
very like we'd been praying about this and it just
sort of lined up and we're like and there had
been some other things that happened that I still don't
quite have a perfect explanation for that, like that, it

(52:32):
just it felt like this was fate in some ways,
and I don't know it was. It was very powerful. Ya,
it was very and and I was.

Speaker 1 (52:42):
How to talk about it.

Speaker 4 (52:42):
It was absolutely and we just know it was the
right time. And I do think too, like I was
in a very obviously whonder we start dating. I wasn't
ready to start dating yet. You know, I hadn't been
to therapy. Like there's like there was I wasn't in
a horrible place. I needed to find more stability. I
needed to figure out more about who I was on
my own and you know, get and like take care

(53:05):
of my substance abuse problems and all these things before
we could date. So I'm glad in some ways that
that was the method that we that we went through.
At the same time, it's sort of attaching our relationship
to that from the start.

Speaker 1 (53:17):
Yeah, it also gives specific gender role.

Speaker 4 (53:20):
It did specific gender role, which which when you're when
you're someone who.

Speaker 1 (53:24):
Happened to be the antithesis of our personalities but gave
us that to Okay.

Speaker 4 (53:29):
I literally wrote a blog about this at the time
on my zanga. I still I still remember it, like
the day when I sort of readjusted myself, got a haircut,
like switched like like stopped wearing girls clothes, like like
stopped wearing makeup, and I just sort of like went

(53:50):
fully into like presenting as a male and like and
I and I you know at the time, and I
have words for any of this, but it's like it
feels this is why a lot of people remain in
the closet, you know, a lot of queer people, because
it feels very safe when you can align like there
is there is safety and strength when you can align
yourself with these things. That's the reason it feels right,
It feels correct because you've been raged to be told

(54:13):
this is correct. And so when you fall into those
into those roles, and when you make yourself that person,
even if it's killing you inside, it can feel awesome
because finally you fit, Finally you are the person that
you've bought. They were right all along. What all you
had to do was X, Y and Z, and now
you're set. And meanwhile, like you're dying inside and you

(54:37):
don't realize it for decades, you know. And so yeah,
it's a lot, but we and we sort of tied
our our relationship to that, and we went to something
that summer called Cey Move Yeah, which is still going today.
It's a massive They're actually based here in job On
christ and Youth the organization, and they put on these

(54:57):
genuinely impressive, genuinely impressive, very well organized, very well run
and produced events for teenagers that I loved, absolutely loved
those events. But I went to my first one with
Midsea that summer, and anyway.

Speaker 1 (55:09):
We had just started dating. We just started dating, and
we had found out in the meantime, just in our
first team with the dating, found out that my family
was moving to Houston, Texis. So I was halfway through
high school. It was like heartbroken.

Speaker 4 (55:19):
We're like, well, how is this supposed to work?

Speaker 6 (55:21):
Right?

Speaker 1 (55:21):
But honestly, I mean, and we know now, like what
a great thing that was. So we still had to
I think for a relationship. I think it was for
a relationship because we still had to like be our
own people in high school and like you know, we
could talk on the phone every night, but we had
kind of our own life still, and I'm thankful for that.
I mean, it's also part of the reason that we

(55:42):
like didn't have sex till we were married.

Speaker 4 (55:45):
That's not a good thing, no, I know, it's one.

Speaker 1 (55:49):
Of the things that probably helped make that It's weird.
That was like a big thing.

Speaker 4 (55:53):
For were like we want to know that's That's something
I've had to come to terms with too. It's like,
no matter how the story got here, Like it is
what it is, it's what happened. You can look back
on your trauma and like mistakes that you've made and
say like, if only this had been different, maybe this
would have happened. We don't know. See how I move
and and that move. It was a very powerful emotional experience.

(56:15):
I made a lot of connections there with with and
I had been to like youth conferences before with forest parks,
and I hated them, hated them all. I still remember
when I went to with Forest Park where they where
they were showing they decided to do this vide they're
talking about how like the media is trying to MTV
is gonna is trying to turn you all into Satanists
kind of thing, and and they like showed this clip

(56:36):
of like all this media to show look at how
bad all this media is. And I still remember when
this clip from the Matrix came on and Keanu reads
like he was around the corner with the two guys
and the whole crowd goes wild. All these kids are just.

Speaker 1 (56:47):
Like cheered like rocks, and.

Speaker 4 (56:52):
They're like psych, that's the devil, so stupid. And that
was like a lot of the events I went to
a forest park were like that. First park is obviously
a Baptist church, Carshach Warnogo is part of the Restoration movement,
very different denomination and uh and and and c CEO's
you know whole thing with the youth group, it was
like ce I y was very powerful, like it was

(57:14):
genuinely very powerful. Like I still remember there was a
night when we always called it cry night when we
would go with our students, it was like it was
like I think it was like the third because there
was like a it was a five night event. A
third or fourth night was always like that's when you're
all the walls come down. And like I remember there
was one night where I just like broke down with

(57:37):
my buddy Mike. Masters love you, Mike, and yeah, he
was like, Mike's probably the reason we're together in the
first place. But uh we uh like he's doing great.
Yeah he's also had a big deconstruction journey as well.
But my, you know, broke down my buddy Mike, and
I remember, uh my now buddy Trevor, who's a youth pastor,

(57:58):
you know, he was an intern in that time. It
came up and prayed over us and like and there
was just a bunch a bunch of guys there just
holding each other and just crying, and there's a there's
a lot of like this is one of the reasons
why it's really hard for me to look at the

(58:21):
to really acknowledge the the awful, broken, horrific parts of
of the church. And and because I haven't had an
experience like that outside of the church, and I don't
think like the way that people can be open and
honest and emotional and just like the physical connection of

(58:43):
it and the the emotional connection of it all, and
in this in this co it is I mean, that's
why they call it a religious experience. It's like, where
else do people who are not involved in these types
of movements have that?

Speaker 1 (58:54):
You can have that in the military.

Speaker 4 (58:55):
You can, true and I think men can have it,
or men can have it on the football field, you know,
Like it's yeah, it's like and I I think like
and you know, as someone who's like socialized as a man,
it's like you're I think that being you know, existing
as a man at least and from what I can tell,
is often like a just a constant shutting down of

(59:17):
your like emotional expression. And you're like, you know, you're
these parts of you that you're supposed to pretend don't exist.
And and it seemed like in this place, finally like
I've found a place where I can can exist and
and and be actually be who I am, and and
actually like talk about what's happened to me and and
process these feelings and and and through that that evening.

(59:40):
Literally that as long as wor girl dreams right, as
long as you as long as that's that's that's the
part what I got into. It's like, you can you
can have all this if if you're going to change,
if you're going to change who you are, and yeah,
is very conditional. And and I I think it was
may have been that evening or the next evening, but
I just like I realized. I was like, I know
I'm gonna do with my life. I'm I'm going to

(01:00:02):
be a youth pastor. I'm going to help help people
who you know, I'm going to be the Chris that
shows up for someone when they're when their family falls apart.
I like, I just have to just and you know,
I called it a calling to ministry or whatever, you know,
people call it whatever. But it's like when you look
at all the pieces at the time, it just it
just makes sense. That's that's that's the direction I would
I would head in. And I also knew given her

(01:00:24):
parents that it would that they would love that. And
I desperately wanted their approval for our relationship, and also
just because I looked up to them, you know, And
and I had felt like a you know, my grades had,
I was a terrible student. My grades had you know
obviously all the things I was living through, and I

(01:00:46):
just felt like I felt like I was a fuck up.
And I was like, Wow, what a great story that
would be to be able to say I'm going to
come around and like now I'm a youth pastor, and
like I think I can use my story for the gospel,
you know, and and so yeah, I decided that was
the direction I was going to go in, and that
I was going to hit my senior year of high
school graduate go Tozar Christian College Become. I wasn't quite

(01:01:09):
sure on OZARK yet, but that was where I was
leaning because it was here and I knew it. And
also o CC or CCO is very connected to occ
Christian College, which is which is where I think a
lot of CEOs like their whole. There is a very
like academic vibe to a lot of their teaching, a

(01:01:30):
lot of the things that they do. They're very big
on the Bible, They're very big on on you know,
being able to defend your faith, and they value all
of that a lot. Whereas like in the Baptist movement
that was not just not something we really talked about.

Speaker 1 (01:01:42):
Ever.

Speaker 4 (01:01:42):
It was very interesting and uh, anyway, so yeah, and
then you moved. Yeah, you moved to Houston, twelve hours away.
And I was like, how were we going to do this?
And we felt like we had some more weird spiritual experiences.
Decided we were going to try and work it out.
I told you I'd wait six months or six years,
whatever it took. I thought this was supposed to be.
That's is what this is. I thought, this is what

(01:02:03):
we need, this is what's going to be. Like who
I is, who I'm supposed to be is in love
with Mitzi and and we were long distance first, and
then when we moved to Houston, we joined.

Speaker 1 (01:02:15):
It's kind of like really hard not not to be
in a Baptist church there, like it's all especially if
you're going to a megachurch, like it's going to be Baptists.
And so my family became a part of a church
and I was in a youth group there that was
like you know, much bigger, massive, massive, h even though
like my friends at school were. The move was really

(01:02:35):
hard on me, and I was very depressed and it
was really hard to leave. And I was going to
say kind of really quick what you were saying about.
You know, if you change these things about yourself, you
can be accepted. And I really felt that when I
got baptized and got really plugged in the youth group
at CCO as a teen, because like I didn't feel
like I didn't have like a ton of friends at school,
Like I didn't feel like but like a lot of
the kids there they went to a different like a

(01:02:57):
neighboring high school web City, and so like I was
like I could be I could be that church, the
good church girl there, and like win friendships that way.
And I felt like that was easier for me. As
long as they did these certain things, then I could
have friends, and you know, it didn't matter that I
was like as weird as I was or whatever. And
so then moving to Houston was like really hard, and

(01:03:20):
I was, uh, I just like missed all my friends.
Everything was different. I was at this huge high school
and then at this huge church, and a few of
my closest friends like were like the the artsy kids
and like.

Speaker 4 (01:03:33):
The gay kids. Your friends were all gay diverg I
think you only think of one of your friends that
hasn't come out as gay, like or they like or they.

Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
Were like if like once like I think a couple
street guys, I'm like, oh no, they were just into me.

Speaker 4 (01:03:49):
Yes, but we like did have.

Speaker 1 (01:03:50):
Things in common, like it was yeah, oh gay with
other guys that you're like, wow, all my friends are.

Speaker 4 (01:03:56):
Really weird and friends and yeah interesting. The same way
for me in high school, like every every table I
sat at was like the table full of lesbians, Like
what and I'm like, going to forest Park? What are
we doing? It's wild.

Speaker 1 (01:04:14):
All the all the the rednecks at school called you the.

Speaker 4 (01:04:17):
Oh oh my god, like it's just never ending, like
just torrent of slurs. Yes, like I would just go.
I would just walk around the mall and get challenged
to fights and like it's crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
It was.

Speaker 4 (01:04:30):
I it was just constant abuse from every direction.

Speaker 1 (01:04:32):
So yeah, So again it's like if you can find
a religious group that like as long as you do this,
this and this, like they they have to at least pretend.

Speaker 4 (01:04:40):
They like And then you see your social score go
up and as you start wearing more flannel and getting
an undercut, and like then all of a sudden, like
like like you you're in and everyone treats you like
a human. It's crazy.

Speaker 5 (01:04:54):
If you like this episode, please go leave us a
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