192 - Sticking Together & Helping Out

Karen and Georgia cover the disappearance of Emanuela Orlandi, and story of the Oversteegen Sisters and Hannie Schaft.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:14):
Hello, and welcome to my favorite murder. This is a
true crime comedy podcast. That's what it is. It's what
we do. We make it for you, uh huh, and
for ourselves, that's right. And that's Karen Kilgarrett and that's
Georgia hartstart and we are ourselves.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Look, there's nothing we can do about ourselves. Yeah, it's
gee how it is. We're doing our best.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
We're tightening up our game. That's right. But the game
can always be tightened. Sure, that's what life is.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
Why not strive for something a little bit more.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
It's like a right righty tightsy.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
Lestie, Lucy.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
Don't do that one. You gotta right, you gotta writing
that shit, writen it up, right on up. You don't
need to loosen it down. And that's where we're here for.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
Hello and welcome. Oh we did that part of ready.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
Tighten it up, tighten it up, writing that shit. We're
here for a good time, not a long time. Yes,
Oh that's true. Is that from your earbook? It's good
you sang your buns good bye luck at leg it
fucked stay you don't know know or mine must have
been crying.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
Good look get leg get fucked.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
Hell. Yeah, sturdy. What's up? R Vine ninety two or whenever,
that's not right? Ninety eight? I graduated in ninety eight. Yeah,
you know, people like who listen to this podcast were
born in ninety eight. Isn't that weird that they have
ear holes at work? And like we don't have to
like censor them.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
They're well, yeah, there's nothing we can do about their
ear holes because they're twenty they're under developed. Your hammers
and your shoehorns, you know, the things inside your ear. Okay,
your baby teeth, your little baby teeth are all up
in your face.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
Come down, you're going to come down during this podcast
drinking coffee.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
Oh we're doing it. We're saying you anything we can
think of. Oh, you're talking about the ninety eight ers. No,
how do you guys do it? They've never not known
the internet, guys keep going, they've never not known cell phone.

Speaker 1 (02:08):
It gets worse and then it gets better. Oh it's
a little shitty again. In like, it's basically like the
stock market. It's going to go down, up, down, up, up, up,
down down down up. So writing that shit and tighten
that shit and bear market bull market. I don't know
the difference. Amen, let's hear it. Yeah, there's elephants, there's

(02:29):
the Elephant and Donkey market, then there's a bull. Okay,
we did it. That was the plot of Succession.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
I love I love Succession. I like to pretend that
Succession and the Righteous Gemstones work, that they live in
the same world, because in the last episode I watched
of the Righteous Gemstones, they went through that theme park
and I was like, what if this is the theme
park the Succession family owns?

Speaker 1 (02:55):
And then it's a thing. It's like Sunday night. Are
you in the mood for a fucking weird shit like
Gemstones or weird shit like Succession?

Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yeah, it's they are the same show, going in different director.

Speaker 1 (03:04):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
This must have been written about on like BuzzFeed.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
Allah, it's got to have been a like, like snappy
article in a snappy world. Send us a.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
Snappy article you wrote about the Succession, right, twenty year old?
You sit up and what's it called aggregator? And you
just type all day an article about this. You're the
one that's working the Uh what's it called aggregator?

Speaker 1 (03:27):
That's the other computer word that we always like to use,
the gator.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
It's not an instigator. Oh oh, Steven, yeah, millennial, millennial,
Ray Morris, it's here.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
You got to be her all night mother.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
You will be all here all night editing this part
of the show. No one's ever going to hear any
of this, right, No, absolutely?

Speaker 1 (03:52):
Okay, we sound old.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
And we're back not being able to think of the
word algorithmator, yes, algorithm.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
Anyway, what do you have?

Speaker 2 (04:02):
Little news?

Speaker 1 (04:03):
News, news and reviews, news and interview.

Speaker 2 (04:06):
Oh well, let's do the business first, okay, so business
people tune in business in the front.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
There we go, and then we'll party in the back.
That's right, my favorite weekend. Guys. You're sick of hearing
us talk about this.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
We're still excited about it though, that's right, so good.

Speaker 1 (04:20):
We're fucking taking over Santa Barbara.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
There's going to be so many old white people that
don't understand what's happening.

Speaker 1 (04:27):
Kind of sorry, but not really.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
So the packages are sold out, so you can't get
like a whole weekend package, but individual tickets are still on.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
Set, and there's going to be a bunch of shows
so you can come to all of them. Yeah. Still,
and also we're having a fucking art show for the
murderingas that are attending the weekend, so you can submit
your artwork for the art exhibit at my favorite weekend.
The info is in the news section of the website
and for people who are coming or not coming. If
you want to come and you're a murdering a maker

(04:59):
and you just want to fucking sell your wares that
are a little cute. What's it called, like a pop
up store, pop shop, bizaar. You can do it. It's
going to be a bizarre it's going to be snakes,
I don't know, tents and snakes. Yeah, you can do it. Also,
info and link to submission forms is in the new
section of the website. Beautifully read, George. There are so
many people who make such incredible art. If you're in

(05:22):
Los Angeles, come fucking drive up for the day. Sell
your shit like we'd love to see it.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
Let's see your knife earings, Let's see your your cross stitch,
eat a dick.

Speaker 1 (05:31):
Oh, anything like that.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
If you feel like doing it and you want to
come up and do it, we really would love to
host you and see it.

Speaker 1 (05:37):
But here's the thing. Submission deadlines are October twentieth, So
that's like in a couple of days.

Speaker 2 (05:42):
Yeah, you have to actually submit and people need to
know your comings and that's important.

Speaker 1 (05:46):
You know, you're saying to your friends like, I don't
know if I should do it, and am I I
don't know I'm good enough and there's going to be
so many talented people there. Should I do it? Should
I not do it? Just do it? Don't fucking everyone sucks.
Just do it. Just do it where you are the
best one.

Speaker 2 (06:00):
Yeah, exactly what if you don't realize that you don't
have imposter syndrome, what you have is secret superstar syndrome.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
Oh thank you.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
He's waiting for some kind of reaction to that. What
other business? Oh are we going to do the TV
guide of exactly right media?

Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yes, let's see The Murder Squad has a bonus episode
up right now. Yes, where Billy Jensen does something he okay,
so what he did, and this is in conjunction with
Billy Jensen's book.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
Chase Darkness with Me is being they're doing these book
events at Barnes and Nobles across the land, and essentially
Billy went and found a very old murder case and
so they're going to be releasing clues and then you
get to basically work on this murder case and try to.

Speaker 1 (06:43):
Solve it with the clues that are released. Brilliant.

Speaker 2 (06:45):
It's really really cool. So they have this bonus episode
coming out, So listen to this week's Murder Squad and
you it'll make sense more than the way I'm.

Speaker 1 (06:54):
Explaining it right now.

Speaker 2 (06:55):
It's really interesting and cool, and Billy did it all.

Speaker 1 (06:57):
On the percast is Channing Apodaca. He's a comedian and
he has a fucking adorable cat that I've seen that's amazing.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
Great.

Speaker 1 (07:04):
What is do you need to Ride? Have Karen? Do
you need to Ride?

Speaker 2 (07:08):
We're recording it tomorrow, and the rumor is that Billy
Wayne Davis is going to make it onto this episode.

Speaker 1 (07:13):
I've heard that like six bucket.

Speaker 2 (07:15):
Oh, I know, it's very true.

Speaker 1 (07:18):
He's the uh, the Matt Damon of do you need
to Ride?

Speaker 2 (07:21):
That's right you yeah, so, so, as far as we
know right now, that's what's happening tomorrow.

Speaker 1 (07:27):
He has the most lovely Southern accent. It's just worth
it to hear.

Speaker 2 (07:30):
Also, his stand up is brilliant, Like he's just good
at what he does. He's one of those he's one
of those comics that like puts in the work. He's
on the road all the time. He has the best
Internet posters that he makes. One of them is just
a picture of a wolf on a bathroom sink, a
public bathroom sink, like clearly someone went in and took
a picture before they caught it for animal control. You know,

(07:52):
he's that guy.

Speaker 1 (07:53):
Very cool, Thank you. He's a cool guy. And of
course there's the fall line. And this podcast will kill you.
They're coming out with new episodes soon, but you can
catch up on everything. They're so fucking good.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
They're so great.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
Speaking of I don't know, whatever thing we want to
plug something that we just found out about from Millennial
Ray Morris at the UCB Theater, which is like a
big theater here in LA for sketch comedy, for improv,
for just fucking weird shit, fun shit comedy shows. Yeah,
it turns out I we just found out that they're

(08:25):
doing someone's doing my favorite murder, the Unauthorized Musical. It's
going to be on. We're here to authorize.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
We are going to authorize whatever it is. We don't know,
put our stamp of approval on it. Just it's not critical.
It means they don't hate us. There's no way they
don't hate us.

Speaker 1 (08:39):
It's October twenty ninth at UCB Inter Sanctum at ten pm.
Oprah Windfreckle and Michael o'connis are the comedians who are
putting it together, and I'm here for it.

Speaker 2 (08:50):
I mean, I'm not going to those both sound like
fake names, which means they don't want their names to
be going on to this, which means it's going to
be a scorcher.

Speaker 1 (08:59):
Oh no, well go let us know, guys.

Speaker 2 (09:01):
No, it'll be good. I'm sure it'll be fun. Who
cares if they're critical this thing. This is exactly what
we're supposed to be.

Speaker 1 (09:07):
Doing at this point. Art is art.

Speaker 2 (09:09):
We support art, We support anybody getting an idea for
any reason about anything doing it except Nazis. Okay, I
had to so. I was just on vacation, a wonderful vacation.

Speaker 1 (09:22):
I'm happy for you, and I really it does not
it sounds I know, I really am, though you deserve it.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
Thank you. I mean that, No, I get that one
seemed real. But while I was there, I met a
truck driver named Andrea, who if I had one thousand
guesses of what Andrea did for a living. Truck driving
would be way near the end. But she came up,
and of course we were in a bar, because that's
all we did, was spend all of our time in bars.

(09:49):
It was hilarious. And she came up and just said,
like everybody does. I'm so sorry, I'm sorry, get a rub.
They're always lightly crouching down. Sorry, I just want to
say hi, and I love your podcast. And she was
on her honeymoon. I'm sorry, I don't remember her brand
new husband's name.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
I'm very sorry. It was Chuck Chuck or Chad or
Brian Trucker Chad. It was a truck or Chad.

Speaker 2 (10:13):
They met on the road. But anyway, hi to Andre.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (10:16):
You know, we're glad we could be there with you
through your long holes. And she had the most perfect manicure.
I kept wanting to go, how do you drive truck
with the most perfect manicure I've ever seen?

Speaker 1 (10:26):
I have a fully bandaged finger right now and I
don't do jack shit all day and an unmanicured finger,
so I am impressed. Yeah, it was very cool. Yeah,
I just wanted to give that shout, Oh are you
watching the politician?

Speaker 2 (10:40):
No? Oh, my I have not.

Speaker 1 (10:41):
You have to watch The Politician. Okay, it's so good.
There's a there's like an underlying gypsy Rose Blanchard like
kind of storyline. Oh mine, that's so good. And it's
played by Audrey Deutsch. That is I just want to
watch her. I just want to watch the show.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
Well that sounds I'm sold.

Speaker 1 (11:02):
It's a really good show.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
I've been looking at their They have a series of
billboards on sunset that I always look at as I
go to the dentist, and they're beautifully done. They are
gorgeous and kind of like compelling where it's like, are
those even real people?

Speaker 1 (11:14):
It's not like that. It looks super fancy, but it's not.
I mean it is, and it's like indulgent in like
a Gwyneth Paltrow because she's in it kind of way. Okay,
but then oh my god, and then fucking hold on. Oh,
Jessica Lang plays the mom or the grandma with Munchaus
and Cinder by proxy. Yeah, she is fucking incredible.

Speaker 2 (11:31):
Yeah, she's so good.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
I love that show.

Speaker 2 (11:33):
Wow, I didn't know Jessica Lang was on it. Oh
my god, is this a Ryan Murphy joint? Of course
it is exactly, that's part of his contract. He's like,
and where will Jessica Lang be so participating in all
of that?

Speaker 1 (11:44):
Jessica Lang, Zoey Dortsch like characters the Grandma and Daughter
with you know, I could just watch them all day.
It's incredible, awesome whatever. Okay, that's good to know. Yeah, wait,
all it on Netflix? Yeah, okay, you'll love it.

Speaker 2 (11:57):
Okay, great, it's like, so your show, thank you it
because now I'm done with both succession with the combo shows,
the spinoff Succession and the Righteous Jumpstone.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
Get it, girl, They're done. Who goes first this week?

Speaker 2 (12:11):
Me?

Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yeah? Okay, good. This is a story that I discovered
over the summer while I did my usual cold case googling,
And it turns out this is this huge story in
Italy and in Europe, and it's just like everyone knows
about it, but I had never heard about it. Okay,
this is the cold case disappearance of EMANUELA or Landy Okay, right.
I got so much information from this from the Toronto

(12:34):
Star article by Sandra Contenta, by an all That's interesting
article by Marco Margueritoff, and an article at the Guardian
by Harriet Sherwood and Angela Guffrida and of course Wikipedia
and read it our best friends have to. Oh.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
I was just gonna say really quick, because I keep
saying this every time I use Wikipedia lately. Please, if
you can go donate five dollars to Wikipedia. Yes, they
need it, they talk about it often. It's important if
you could do it. It would help us us a lot,
because we need to make sure that we can always.

Speaker 1 (13:02):
Use Wikipedia the only way we know how. And I
swear I've done it too. I promise, Yeah, you do
it too. I do I'm a good person. Okay, I promise, Sorry,
trust me. Okay. So this is the only this case
is the only Vatican citizen ever to be kidnapped. I
saw gonna need your help with this Catholic shit. Kirkirk

(13:23):
kerkra I'm Jewish and I don't get it. Of course,
young people go missing all the time, all over the
fucking world. This tragic cult case is one of many.
I want to make that clear. But it's become one
of Italy's most enduring mysteries and has yielded tons of
conspiracy theories over the years, with some involving ties to

(13:43):
the Pope. The mafia, of course, and then fucking Mason's
that's right, Karen, It all goes all the way to
the Lord. That's right, Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
Oh, for whoever your Lord and Savior might be, it's
your decision, it's your life, that's right.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
So in June of nineteen eighty three, fifteen year old
Emmanuela or Landy had just completed her second year of
high school. She's this beautiful, you know, normal kid. She
had grown up in Vatican City with her three sisters
and brother, her mother, and her father, who was a
clerk in the office that scheduled meetings for Pope John
Paul the Second. Did you say beatings for Pope John No,

(14:25):
I wish I had meeting? Okay, meeting, yeah, great, many
things would work there. He'd like to film him now.
So the children there have this safe, happy life in
Vatican City. They have free run of the Vatican gardens,
and according to am Manuela's older brother Petro, they sometimes
the Pope would fucking swing by and be like, yo,

(14:45):
what's up, God is good? Whatever? Whatever. Basically it was
a happy childhood. Yeah to Christ, Yeah, that's right. And
in Manuela was a smart kind girl. So normal childhood,
as normal as it can be living in the Vatican City.

Speaker 2 (15:00):
I mean, just the idea of it. I know that
there is a Vatican City, and I know it's its
own totally separate thing and all those things, but the
idea that people actually live there with children and stuff,
I thought it was just the clear g men.

Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, Okay, that's fascinating, I'll tell you. Okay, so that
I didn't know a lot of this. Vatican City is
a sovereign state of about a thousand people, so people
actually live there like it's a state, okay, and it's
ruled by the Pope obviously. It was declared a sovereign
state in nineteen twenty nine as part of the Lake
Trent Treaty between the Holy See and Italy. Yeah, and

(15:37):
that's cee S E S. That's see for all you
Jews out there, because I had never heard of it.
The Holy See is the Pope, right, Yeah, the Holy
See is the universal government of the Catholic Church, and
the Vatican City state is a sovereign independent territory in
side of Italy where it operates from.

Speaker 2 (15:52):
Oh, it's like the Pope's whole government.

Speaker 1 (15:55):
Yes, okay, so it's but it operates from there and
he fucking oh he runs this shit, the.

Speaker 2 (15:59):
King, he's a president. He's like, he's in charge. Jay
z to New York City got his run, so shit, yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah. The Orlandi family is part of a small group
of lay Vatican citizens living within the walls of the
city state because people have to do like lay stuff
like Butler and you know, gardener and answer the phone
and schedule beatings for the Pope.

Speaker 2 (16:22):
Answer that red phone. Yes, the beating will be at noon.
Hang that phone up.

Speaker 1 (16:26):
That's right. So there are some lay people there, okay, okay.
On June twenty seventh, nineteen eighty three, fifteen year old Emanuela,
who was a pretty and musically talented girl, is in
her second year of high school. I already fucking said
that school year recently ended, but she continues to take
flute and piano lessons three times a week at a
school connected with the Pontifical Institute of Sacred Music. So

(16:48):
she's good and she's dedicated to music. She'd better be good.
That's right.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
At the Pontifical Institute.

Speaker 1 (16:52):
Cificate this nich. She's also part of the church choir
in the Vatican like, WHOA, no joke, She's just talented.
I wrote high falutin before I realized what a great
pun it was because she plays the flute. Oh high
falutin my falute. Let me explain this.

Speaker 2 (17:08):
I feel like your puns come from God because they're
so high falutin.

Speaker 1 (17:13):
As an example, thank you, You're welcome. That day, in
Manuela is headed to flute class. She asked her older
brother Pietro to drive her the mile long bus. No
to drive her. He's like, nope, I can't do it.
They get in a fight, and of course he regrets
it every fucking yeah, and it's so sad. Hate those
parts of these stories, right. She instead takes the bus

(17:34):
to class. A traffic cop and a constable later come
forward and say that they saw her in front of
the Italian Senate talking to a young man in a
green BMW, but the Senate security cameras weren't working that day,
so they didn't catch anything. After class, around seven pm,
Emanuela calls home and talks to one of her sisters.
She tells her that a man had offered to pay

(17:56):
her almost two hundred dollars to distribute pamphlets for Avon. Yeah,
at a fashion show that weekend, I fud people used
to come up to you and be like, do you
want a job? A cash job? Yeah? Kind of an
eighty three maybe, but pretty girl like, I just need
teenagers to do this cheap job for me.

Speaker 2 (18:15):
How about how about you apply for a job like
it wear at the warehouse and then you don't have
to worry about getting a job through a car window
from someone you don't know, can me?

Speaker 1 (18:23):
I feel like an eighty three that was just like
a thing absolutely, I mean yes, total possibility. And who knows.
There's so many red herrings in this that and like
so many clues that you don't know that they if
they lead me where or not. So this could just
be a normal thing.

Speaker 2 (18:35):
Here's the other thing I'd like to call it into suspicion. Yeah,
not a lot of dudes working for Avons in my experience,
my aunt, some neighbor ladies. But it's pretty much a
it's a woman based industry, and a.

Speaker 1 (18:48):
Two hundred dollars is a lot of fucking money in
eighty three. Yeah, like just to do a cheap job.
You talk about fifty bucks here, Yeah, that's like yes,
I think it seems sketchy.

Speaker 2 (18:58):
It seems super because wouldn't it be like fifteen hundred
dollars in today's money, probably roughly.

Speaker 1 (19:04):
I don't know, if about Italian money, Yeah, I know Leia, really,
I don't know. I believe it she was given. She
shold him she would answer that evening after asking her parents,
but her sister said they weren't home. That was the
last anyone ever heard from Emanuela. When she doesn't return
home by the next day, she's officially declared a missing person,

(19:26):
and over the next two days, announcements of the disappearance
are published in the published and like missing posters go
up with the Orlandi home phone number written on them.
Oh no, yeah, like call with any clues. So a
few days later, a sixteen year old boy calls to
say he and his fiance had run into her the
day she disappeared. He reports, it's all this crazy shit

(19:48):
like he said that they met her at a local square.
She had They described her correctly with her glasses and
her flute and told them that she had run away.
She told them that she had run away from home
and was selling avon. So it kind of like matched up.
A couple of days after that, a man who owns
a bar between the Vatican City and the Music school

(20:08):
named Mario calls and says that a girl matching Imanuila's
description had confided in him about being a runaway and
said that she would return home for her sister's wedding,
which was truthful, and that she was supposed to play
the flute in the sister's wedding, which was also true. Okay,
so it kind of made them think, like, maybe she's
just a runaway. By July, Rome has over three thousand

(20:29):
posters with Emanuela's photograph, and her disappearance becomes a national story,
and like it's a face that I think anyone in
Italy would know as like a missing girl. You know,
it's like a huge story to them, and it becomes
a national story, especially when on Sunday, July third, during
his weekly public Sunday prayer at Saint Peter's Square, Pope

(20:50):
John Paul the Second makes a public appeal about Immanuela's
disappearance and says that she was basically applies that she
was kidnapped and praised for her speedy return. And this
is the first time that Emai while his family had
even considered kidnapping. They thought she was a runaway. But
for some reason the Pope was like, she's been like,
does he have more information? Though we know?

Speaker 2 (21:09):
Oh right, yeah, so now maybe he's just hoping like
many many families do when people go missing.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
Fucking pope I had like this big, fucking I don't know.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
Maybe he was like trying to turn a slow like
it's not I don't know, I don't know. But that's
also it's so heavy that the Pope said something about her, right,
but it's such.

Speaker 1 (21:30):
A big deal. It's also the fact that there was
the first person to be kidnapped in the Vatican citizens, right.

Speaker 2 (21:36):
But I'm saying, usually in situations like that, those kinds
of institutions brush it under the rug. It's like, no,
nothing bad's ever happened, right, Like Disneyland won't let anybody
die on their property type of thing. Yes, exactly, it's
the Vatican is very similar to Disney that's right. It's
good to know that they have better laws there.

Speaker 1 (21:54):
Disneyland City, as we know, is a sovereign state, and
that the territory inside of Anaheim where it operates from
it established in nineteen twenty three. That's right, got it? Okay?
So now, months before the kidnapping, a friend of Emanuela
is a named Rafaela. These names probably sound so beautiful
when said by an Italian person. Yes, absolutely so. This

(22:17):
gal is the daughter of the Pope's butler, and he
told her father that she was being followed by a
man who had tailed her on six separate days as
she rode the bus to school. And this is a
few months before Emanuela had gone missing. Her father had
warned her that there was a rumor of a possible
kidnapping being planned, and because of this that the squirrel
Rafaella was transferred to a different school and wasn't allowed

(22:40):
to leave Outican City alone. So like, this might be
a pattern when the claim is investigated by an Italian
intelligence officer. When you know the detective comes to fucking
check it out, he's taken off the case and given
a desk job. Oh so it might go all the way.
I'll way to that top. Two days after the Pope's appeal,
the Orlandi family receives the first of a number of
an anonymous phone calls. One call reports emanuel It is

(23:03):
supposedly the prisoner of a terrorist group. Okay, Now in
Italy at this time, Italy is the largest communist party
in the West at the time, and this is a
time of fucking crazy violence and political unrest and like
mafia stuff. It's almost like a cold war inside the country,
you know, like fighting foreign factions. Yeah yeah, as well
as by extremist national groups.

Speaker 2 (23:25):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (23:25):
So like not a good time to be there and
be walking around as a teenager. Yeah yeah. Two days
after the Pope's appeal, the Orlandi family receives the first
of a number of anonymous phone calls. Okay, okay. The
color in this one says that in exchange for Emanuel
is released, they demand the release of Mhemet ali Agha.

(23:46):
Muhemet is a Turkish Man. Who did you know that
the fucking that Pope, John Paul the second had was shot, Yes,
an attempted assassination.

Speaker 2 (23:53):
Yes, and then he forgave his assassin. Okay, that's crazy,
it's super crazy. And also that's why when he when
the Hope came and toured America, he was in the popemobile.
That was like he was basically in what looks like
one of those old trouble where the dice pops back up,
but he put a pope in there. Yeah, yes, because
because of guy, because of this guy. Because oh, because

(24:14):
this guy that actually shot us. So the person who's
calling is demanding the release of the dude who shot him,
who shot him four fucking times and hit him, and
he fucking survived.

Speaker 1 (24:23):
He survived in nineteen eighty one. So they're saying that
they kidnap me Manuela to trade her for this prisoner
because he's in prison now. Yeah, well don't you think
he should be though? Yeah, the way are you on
the side, I'm not. I'm saying, o fact, you're right.

Speaker 2 (24:40):
Right, defend it.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
He's also the responsible for the murder of a left
wing journalist and human rights advocate named Abdi e Pecky.
No other information is given, but Pietro the brother says,
when they asked to exchange Emmanuela to us, it meant
she was alive. So this is like the first time
that they are being asked to trade. That means she's like.
It gave them kind of hope, like held somewhere, even

(25:03):
though the request was absurd. They were like, it's not
going to fucking happen. But at least she's alive. Yeah.
So in the following days, other calls are received, including
one from a man who becomes and he calls himself
the American because he's American, has an American accent. I
don't know. He plays a recording allegedly of Iman while
his voice over the phone. He also wants to arrange

(25:25):
a deal for Iman while his return. In exchange for
muhemet all Auga's release the guy who shot at the pope.
He says that the calls from the two men, remember
the two guys from the day of that were like, oh,
she was in my bar and said she was a
runaway and we met her in the square. Those were
like his men. Oh, and they were calling to try
to slow down the investigation by insinuating that she was

(25:48):
a runaway. Yeah. I was going to say that.

Speaker 2 (25:50):
Part of it is like then the family is finding out,
like she was going to run away. We didn't think
she was going to run away, right, So they stopped
looking as hard and they're waiting and they have information
about her that was like kind of correct, so they
that could possibly be true.

Speaker 1 (26:03):
I think it is.

Speaker 2 (26:05):
But if they were following the other girl that was
then not allowed to go anywhere by herself for days
and days. It's easy to find out stuff like that
if they're just walking behind.

Speaker 1 (26:13):
And that's true, and like seeing where she goes and
the flute shit. Yeah, so he says, the calls from
the two men who claim to hear that day are
members of his organization, which is a Turkish extremist nationalist
group called the Gray Wolves, and like these guys are
fucking in the mix at this time too, like fighting
with Italy. Okay. Another call from the American dude led

(26:36):
to a bag and a garbage bin with a photocopy
of sheet music by a composer that Emanuela had been studying.
So these are all the clues that they give, and
like there's one that's like she has six moles on
her back, she has all her friends have dark hair.
Like nothing conclusively leads like proofs she's with them. It

(26:57):
doesn't seem like it, right, But of her music school
registration card was found inside a public garbage bin, but
it was a copy, so like who knows where that
came from. So in an interview in prison, this guy
Ogkhad declares that Emanuela was kidnapped by Bulgarian agents of
the Great Wolves, he himself Muhammet. He claims that the
KGB had put him up to the shooting of the

(27:19):
Pope all along, so the fucking KGV is in here now.

Speaker 2 (27:22):
Oh God.

Speaker 1 (27:23):
And that the other another fifteen year old girl, actually
had gone missing at the same time as Emanuela did,
Mary Ella Gregory. She was abducted at the same time
as Emanuela, and he says it's part of a plan
to secure his release from prison, So like these two
young fifteen year old girls had been kidnapped for this reason.
He claims that the girls were taken to a royal
palace in Liechtenstein, where they're living in a convent. Over

(27:47):
the years, there's been an insane amount of theories circulated
in the Italian press and with Italians like they go
crazy over this. I'm not getting into all of them.
I would highly recommend if you want to know more,
to read the article in the Toronto Star about this.
It goes fucking deep. But in two thousand and five,
another anonymous call comes to an Italian TV show saying
that the tomb of the gangster in Rico Depadias has

(28:09):
evidence that would help in the disappearance of Emanuela. Oh okay,
so this guy said, they're like, look, check out the
tomb in Rico Deepadias had been a leader of the
Banda dil della mag Magliani gang, which was at the
top of Rome's criminal world, so they were like the
criminal fucking overlords in this guy was like part of it.
In February nineteen ninety, Deepadius was shot and killed by

(28:31):
rival members of his gang and buried at Saint Apollinaire's crypt,
at one of Rome's most prestigious churches. Okay, and all
less people are like, why the fuck is this guy
who is in the mafia buried in this crypt prestigious
crypt buried there are numerous cardinals and senior members of
the Vatican, and burials hadn't occurred for over a century there, Okay,

(28:54):
so suddenly they're opening.

Speaker 2 (28:56):
It back up right.

Speaker 1 (28:57):
It was fucking weird and also just happened to be
a attached to the building where E men while I
had studied music. Ooh yeah, okay, but it isn't not
to play just sitting back. This is the whole case
is Let's go ahead and yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
Okay, because it's at such a tiny place that everything
is going to eat Evatican City.

Speaker 1 (29:15):
I like Vatican, What about outside of it?

Speaker 2 (29:18):
I mean who, I don't know. If I'm just saying
if it's close by, right, that's right, you would just
it's all kind of.

Speaker 1 (29:25):
Connected and it might not mean anything, but the fact
that a notorious gangster was buried at the sacred place
made everyone go, what the fuck?

Speaker 2 (29:31):
And so was that not like known until this came out.

Speaker 1 (29:34):
It wasn't known until it came out. Oh okay, it
had been years, and.

Speaker 2 (29:37):
People were like, hang on a second, Yeah, there's something's
going on here.

Speaker 1 (29:40):
Jesus say what. There were all kinds of gang ties
and eat this like fucking crazy, crazy, evil masionic groups
like that. I'm not getting into the Illuminati. Yeah, probably
deal like I think they laugh at the Illuminati because
they're like, that's bullshit and everyone knows about them, that's right,
Like some crazy Masonic group that like their fucking like

(30:01):
banker and shit, oh banana stuff. They deal with money
launderings through the Vatican. So all this money is being
wandered through the Vatican with this fucking gang like mafia team. Oh.
I don't know what they call themselves. It's a team
like soccer. Yeah, and all kinds of suspicious deaths happened.
But basically, it's theorized that Imanuela was kidnapped to blackmail
the Vatican into giving back the money it owed this

(30:23):
gang that this guy belonged to, and it said that
they did get the money back thanks to a deal
cut by this guy in Rico Depadias. And part of
that deal he cut was I want to be buried
in one of these fucking crips.

Speaker 2 (30:35):
WHOA right, Okay.

Speaker 1 (30:37):
It's like adding on it. I know they're going to
give you whatever I want. I also want this, Okay.
It's kind of a large ask. I would like to
be buried with saints and cardinals. Yeah, but it's like,
you got us back two hundred million dollars. Oh true,
Okay you can yeah, okay, and we need you to
get this money back for us or we look really
bad or whatever the fuck. Okay. Depadias's former lover named Sabrina.

(30:59):
She's said that she had seen Emanuela after her kidnapping,
and that she had been held by the Deep Adeus's
gang for several months. She also claims she saw eman
while his lifeless body in a sack before it was
dumped in a cement mixer, I know, on a construction
site in a seaside town in Rome. But she might
be a little crazy. And also the construction site, it

(31:22):
turns out, had been built after no before.

Speaker 2 (31:27):
It had already been built.

Speaker 1 (31:28):
Yes, yeah, so it wasn't credible, but there's some weird
credible shit that she has information of. Yeah, but she
also might be like, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (31:37):
Well they always say that, right, that's like that's the
ultimate disqualifier.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
She is so crazy, and.

Speaker 2 (31:42):
Then it's a person's just going I actually witnessed this
entire thing and own then no one believes you.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
Right, that's very true. Yeah. Anyway, the Orlandi family lobbies
the Vatican to open Deepiduus's tomb because remember they had
said that look in there and you'll find some information.
The Vatican actually agrees to open the tomb, which is crazy.
When it's opened on May thirteenth, twenty twelve, only Padias's
remains are inside. Oh I know, bummer. Still the links

(32:09):
there I find very interesting, Yeah, yeah, very The most
disserting theory revolves around a concerted effort on behalf of
the Vatican, local police and regional lawmakers to kidnap young
girls like Emanuela Orlandi and Muriela Grigory and force them
to be sex slaves. What's that TV show we watched
a long time ago that had similar undertones New.

Speaker 2 (32:30):
Top of the Lake, Top of the Lake, Top of
the Lake, good job, it goes all the way to
the top of the lake.

Speaker 1 (32:34):
Okay? May. In May twenty twelve, also an eighty five
year old exorcist named Gabrielle A Morth claims that Orlandi
was kidnapped i a member of the Vatican police for
sex parties and then murdered. That's what he says. But
this guy is fucking like the kind of guy who's
like Harry Potter is Satan and shit, oh you know
what I mean. He claims that an official of an

(32:56):
unnamed foreign embassy was involved as well, But he's a
little but like maybe like a little bit of what
he says is true.

Speaker 2 (33:02):
Well, I feel like these days, when we were actively
watching all conspiracy theories come to life in front of
our eyes, it's getting easier and easier to believe every
theory of everything because you're just.

Speaker 1 (33:14):
Like, yeah, those exist.

Speaker 2 (33:16):
Yes, this has been proven to be real, and the
cuckoo people are the ones who actually come forward and
don't mind seeming cuckoo by fucking saying these things, right,
all right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:24):
Well we're saying it. We're saying it. We're the craziest
of all. Another theory says that Eman Whila was kidnapped
by spies acting for the former Soviet Union and used
to blackmail Pope John Paul the Second and to ending
support for Poland's dissident Solidarity Union movement.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
That was a big thing in the eighties. Really, yeah,
it's a big deal. It was just that Poland was
basically getting liberated, and I think it was through like
it got it was became international news, like Walessa was
the leader of that party, but basically was basically everyone's
just like, oh yeah, people need to have freedom.

Speaker 1 (34:01):
Okay, it's the kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (34:02):
It might have also had something to do with communist Russia,
but I shouldn't talk about any of this. I'm just
basically saying this is like me talking about old Scooby
Doo episodes, except for it was the politics that I
absorbed as like an seven year old.

Speaker 1 (34:16):
Essentially, the news on it all all times. Yeah, okay, I.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
Know this was back when the news only came up
from six.

Speaker 1 (34:22):
To seven and your parents left it on. Yeah all right.
Then this last year, the family's lawyer received an ominous
note which contained a photograph of a tomb and an
angel who was like watching over the tomb like a
concrete I don't know. Angel looked at you, thank you,
and it said and the angel was pointing down at
the tombs, and the photograph said seek where the angel indicates.

Speaker 2 (34:48):
That's straight out of the da Vinci code. That's right,
I mean, it's like DaVinci code business. It really is, okay.
In reference to the marble angel guarding the crypt in question,
this clue leads to the Punta Teutonic Cemetery in the Vatican,
where there's an angel statue that's pointing out some tombs,
so plans are made to open the fucking tombs. Really,

(35:08):
this is when I this is where I came in
with my late night cold case. Yes, okay, the cemetery
normally houses the remains of German speaking Catholic members, but
like fucking eighteen hundreds, we're talking, okay, So this past July,
it's what October.

Speaker 1 (35:23):
Right now, this past July twenty nineteen, the Vatican opens
the tombs. In them are supposed to be the remains
of Princess Sophie of Holan Lowe and the Duchess Charlotte Frederica. Okay,
in it is the remains of no one, no bodies,
no one. Oh, not the princess or the Duchess or Emanuela.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
It's an empty tomb, huh, which means people have been
taking taken out of the tomb.

Speaker 1 (35:53):
Right right after it had been opened. They find an
underground space inside the Pontifical Teutonic College which had been
covered by a manhole. Inside of that, there's thousands of
bones that appear to be from dozens of individuals, both
quote adult and non adult, but they look ancient. But
they're DNA testing them now. They're currently conducting an investigation

(36:15):
the whereabouts of the princesses as well. Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (36:18):
So they basically open the tomb and a new mystery started,
that's right, A simultaneous mystery.

Speaker 1 (36:24):
That's right, which people think like just goes to show
you there's some fucking crazy Vatican mystery show just because.

Speaker 2 (36:29):
They don't have to. They don't have to explain anything
to anybody. Now, there is a rumor that there's a
Vatican like a secret museum under the Vatican that has
like old dinosaurs, Steven, you'll be interested in this, like
like old rare dinosaurs and things that, like, you know,
they're like it's the Lockness monster and lah blah blah,
Like there's things there that they've never released out because

(36:50):
the Vatican doesn't want the general public to know about
it and it doesn't fit into their norm of like
this is what happened, and this is what's going on,
and here's a narrative, and that's the narrative you believe.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
Like if you shake people's faith thinking that their faith
is smaller than what actually is, people lose their fucking shit.

Speaker 2 (37:07):
That's right, that's right.

Speaker 1 (37:08):
Not us, No, we consider all options, that's right, not murderinos.
We want to know the truth.

Speaker 2 (37:13):
We want to know what's in that basement.

Speaker 1 (37:17):
There's no basement at the Vatican. Excuse me, excuse.

Speaker 2 (37:25):
There are podcasts out there that tries so hard to
do this for real and we are damn it.

Speaker 1 (37:31):
Please go listen to one of those. After this, there's
rumors that Eman Will is not only alive, and her
brother knows about it, and her brother is like the
advocate that's trying to fucking get the Vatican to fast up. Yeah,
someone is spreading a rumor that she's emanuel As masquerading
as her brother's wife. No, so so bad that one

(37:52):
reporter starts stalking his family for months trying to prove
the theory. She wraps tape around her finger and stumbles
into like his mother Iman while his mother to get
a sample of her hair for DNA testing, and rummages
through the garbage at his house and takes his wife's
use tampons. Oh no, it's like this is their fucking

(38:12):
John bin At. Yeah, yeah, sounds like it. He Pittra says.
Nothing surprises in him anymore.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
So.

Speaker 1 (38:20):
The disappearance has been linked to the KGB, the attended
murder of the Pope, the Vatican connection to the mob,
satanic orgies, and money laundering at the Vatican Bank, among
other things, but ultimately there's no tangible proof of what
actually happened to Emanuela over three decades ago, and although
a lot of red herrings and conspiracies may have clouded
over the facts. So that's one of those things where
there's so much fucking things to trace in places at

(38:42):
lead nowhere that who knows what's real at this point, right,
Like who even knows who saw her that day? And
who's telling the truth? Right?

Speaker 2 (38:49):
Who was misleading people on purpose?

Speaker 1 (38:51):
Right? What was real?

Speaker 2 (38:52):
Also, you know, nineteen eighty three is basically like saying
eighteen eighty three in terms of police you know, forensic
anything or all the you know, the people said.

Speaker 1 (39:03):
They need to go back to the original police file
and start there because it's the most simple, and that's
usually where the answer is.

Speaker 2 (39:09):
It's true, true, But it's also it's so sad to
me because it is that thing of like, whatever the
answer is, it's that the victimization of like a teenage girl,
because it's like, we'll use you for whatever the plot is,
whatever the crime is, it's there's an innocent girl and
her family.

Speaker 1 (39:27):
Totally least, and it could just be some fucking sicko
who kidnapped her, right, you know, and who's never going
to get his fucking justice.

Speaker 2 (39:35):
Right, because everyone's like, oh, it's a satanic whatever. We're
just like no, oh no, what about if there's just
a like a serial killer, serial predator that's just doesn't
get caught exactly Iman.

Speaker 1 (39:46):
While his mother, Maria, who's now in her eighties, she
set a plate for her missing daughter at Christmas for
years after she went missing, I mean, while his father
passed away in two thousand and four. In March of
twenty thirteen, the first Sunday Mass of his pontification, his
first fucking thun A mass, Pope Francis gave a sermon
and after the mass, he greeted every person who left

(40:09):
the sermon. He shook Maria the mother's hand and said,
Emanuela is in heaven, to which the brother Pietro responded,
and tell there's proof to the contrary. I live in
hope that she's alive, and I hope you will help
me find the truth. Yeah, to which the Pope responded,
she's in heaven. Why Petri himself thinks that the Mahomet

(40:31):
ali agka Engel was a red herring, the guy who
shot at the Pope, Yeah, he says. I believe Pope
John Paul had to weigh the truth about Emanuela against
the image of the church, and he made a choice.
I believe he knows what happened. So a lot of
people think that they could have gotten her back, and
it could have there could have been some kind of trade,
but it would have just ousted so many fucking stories

(40:54):
and so many like secrets that to them it wasn't
worth it.

Speaker 2 (40:57):
I didn't do it. Yeah, there's also the possible because
the Catholic Church has a very bad habit and reputation
of covering up for priests and clergyman, that just it's
just some local pedophile clergyman. They did it, and they
found out about it, and they're covering for him.

Speaker 1 (41:18):
I mean, it's a proven fact that they do that.
It's not it's not a fucking.

Speaker 2 (41:21):
Uh no, we're not just saying it. Yes, we all know.
Everybody saw Spotlight. We know how things go.

Speaker 1 (41:27):
Well. Pietro is undeterred. He refuses to stop searching for
answers as to what happened to his little sister, and
that is the story of the disappearance of Emanuela or Landy.

Speaker 2 (41:37):
The cold cases aren't the saddest I know, it's really awful,
and it's like, yeah, that family that they don't have
an answer. So it doesn't help that the pope says
she's in heaven, because that doesn't prove anything, and they
need proof so that they can at least be in
a different space than not knowing totally. I mean, that's

(41:59):
just it's hard breaking, it is for sure. Well, so
what's funny is can I tell the story of So
Georgia told me last week that she wanted to do
the story she just did, but she said, it's all
about the Vatican, and I don't understand you people what
you're doing with your your big weird church city state.

Speaker 1 (42:18):
Holy see, I.

Speaker 2 (42:19):
Learned a lot, by the way, thank you so much
as a lapsed Catholic. So she said, what if I
do this? And then she and then you basically gave
me my murder for this week.

Speaker 1 (42:33):
Yeah. I wanted to trade you this for this, yeah,
but instead we're doing Oh you wanted to trade so
you could do this? Yeah, just getting the credit speak
as if, yeah, you get the credit frowitch but oh yeah,
oh okay, well go to know at it.

Speaker 2 (42:51):
So with your suggestion, this week, I'm doing the Overstagan
sisters and Honey Shoft teenage Nazi assassin.

Speaker 1 (43:02):
Yeah. Yeah, this story is so excited.

Speaker 2 (43:05):
Very cool.

Speaker 1 (43:07):
So I don't even know that much about it. So
I'm really excited for this. Oh really, Yeah, I just
like I've read little basic articles.

Speaker 2 (43:13):
I can't believe that there hasn't been There's one movie
made about it, just about Hanny shot, but I can't
believe there hasn't been a movie, and hopefully there will
be because it's really incredible.

Speaker 1 (43:26):
Well, I feel like Quentin Tarantino's movie, what was it
called Inglorius Bastard kind of like has some hints of that.

Speaker 2 (43:32):
It absolutely does, and it's kind of like the idea
of like a fascist to the degree of Adolf Hitler
and the insanity and the speed freakiness of Adolf Hitler
taking over almost all of Europe. I think it's cool
that he made that movie because it basically shows how
the people, how many people had to rise up against
the Nazis and fight in their own versions of the

(43:54):
resistance and be spies and there and before that, they
just owned a shoe store. They just were some one's
wife or daughter.

Speaker 1 (44:01):
It was imperative. It was life or death. It was
life or death.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
And it is the kind of thing where people slowly
watch this takeover happen, but everybody thought, not in my country,
There's no way it could happen here.

Speaker 1 (44:12):
There's a lot of that, or they were like, yes,
in my country, I want this to happen, right.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
And that's the scary thing is that there became this
dividing line. So it's cool to hear these stories because
you we see lots of movies about the brave soldiers
and all the people that fought against like the Axis powers, and.

Speaker 1 (44:30):
That's all cool.

Speaker 2 (44:31):
But like teenage girl resistance fighters, I think is a
story that's so timely and perfect. So I got information
from Smithsonian Magazine, the Washington Post, Wikipedia again please donate
five dollars, History dot com, the New York Times, and
then a woman named Sophie Poldermont's I think that's how

(44:54):
you pronounced her name. She wrote a book. I found
out about Sophie Polderman's book because I stumbled upon in
trying to.

Speaker 1 (45:02):
Look up.

Speaker 2 (45:04):
A podcast that could kind of succinctly tell me the story.
I found this podcast called Inspiring Women, hosted by a
woman named Kate Daniels.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
That is the loveliest.

Speaker 2 (45:16):
It's like your favorite high school teacher hosting a podcast
to talk about these women that we don't get to
hear about as much as we should.

Speaker 1 (45:24):
I love it.

Speaker 2 (45:24):
Okay, so I'll give you and I do apologize. I
am not a World War two scholar.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
Wait what you know? This is a lot of people
are going to be disappointed after this. This is the
mispronunciation episode like Karen and Georgia.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
This is the let's tread into areas we do not belong,
let's trade religions. Yeah, and just see what we have
to say. But stories that are so worth telling. So okay,
let's first talk about the This is how she pronounces
it on the podcast. So I'm just imitating a Dutch
woman who's clearly this is how you're supposed to.

Speaker 1 (45:57):
Say it, Okay.

Speaker 2 (45:58):
Prous Cruz Overstagen is born on August twenty ninth, nineteen
twenty three, and her younger sister Freddie Freddy very easy
to pronounce.

Speaker 1 (46:10):
You said that wrong, right, oh pleady.

Speaker 2 (46:13):
She is born two years later on September sixth, nineteen
twenty five in Scottan, Netherlands, which is a small Dutch
village that sits in what is now known as the
city of Harlem. So the family lives. The Overstogin family
lives altogether on a large ship, fun Fun and the

(46:34):
sisters are raised by very socially aware Communist parents. So
their mother makes a point of instilling a keen sense
of justice in her daughters from a very early age.
So they spent their childhoods doing stuff like making dolls
for the child victims of the Spanish Civil War. Yeah,
a lot of awareness about, like, you know, what's going

(46:56):
on with other people and helping out. And both of
her parents, both of their parents are members of the
International Red Aid, which was a social service group organized
by the Communist International. I've never heard of that before.
Great job, Communist International. This is research that I'm reading. Okay,
But their parents get divorced when their mom gets fed

(47:17):
up because the father doesn't work that much and doesn't
make enough money. It's an amicable split, but after she
takes her daughters off the ship, they don't see much
of their father. After that, the family, now smaller, family
moves to a flat where they sleep on straw mattresses
that their mother makes by hand. Freddie was later quoted

(47:38):
as saying that they didn't have much, but her mother
always was able to figure something out, and the family
was always singing, oh shut up, yeah, come on, sticking
together and helping out. Okay, Eventually, their mother remarries and
then gives birth to a third child, a boy, and
so now Freddie and Klus have a little half brother.

(48:00):
Now I'm just gonna very lightly and very badly explain
to you World War two. Just let me do it
my way.

Speaker 1 (48:08):
Oh no, I've.

Speaker 2 (48:09):
Only could take a shot of Paul Hols's whiskey, could
you imagine? Essentially I just tried to boil it. Everybody knows,
we've all watched the History Channel one million times.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
But essentially, read the book Mouse, or read look at
the book Us.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
The graphic novel of Mouse m a Us is from
the point of view of a survivor of a Nazi
concentration and his son. It's so incredible and horrifying and
what a terrible time. So essentially Germany lost World War One,
and so did everybody else because there was such incredible

(48:48):
loss of human life, unlike anything anyone had ever seen before.
Obviously it was called World War One, but it was horrifying,
and there's you know, go see any movie about that
because people didn't even know how badly it was going
to impact soldiers and the human beings. There was just
so much, so much loss of life, so unlike anything

(49:11):
anyone's seen before. And Germany afterwards it was you know,
there's the whole story of the the Deutsche Mark. It
basically became useless. They got humiliated, They were humiliated, they
were all poor, their money was worth nothing. It was like,
it was terrible. And the problem with that is and
when people are oppressed with poverty, with all those things,

(49:34):
then people rise to power who like to convince them
that their misfortune there's a certain group that's responsible. What
a great feeling that there's just one group that's responsible
for all the things that's happened to a country. It's easy,
It makes it very easy, and you can, you can,
you know, focus all your hate in one direction. It's simplistic,

(49:55):
it's it, and it catches because it's the basest human
reac is, oh, it's not my fault, it's your fault,
and oh if I get rid of you, all of
my suffering will end. Not true, obviously, most people hopefully
either know that by now will learn it. So let's
now skip to nineteen thirty three, when Adolf Hitler is

(50:17):
appointed Chancellor of Germany and he immediately organizes a campaign
of violence and intimidation against Jewish people throughout Germany carried
out by the Nazi Party. So according to Hitler, who
as I said before, was on tons of speed and
that should never be discounted because white drugs are very
bad for the brain.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
And white drugs with meglomaniac. Yeah, you're just gonna and
with a little art school heartbreak in there. Oh it's oh,
it's not good, okay. So, according to Hitler, the Jews
were to blame for everything that happened to the Motherland
since World War One and even before that, because Jewish
people throughout history become scapegoats for any time there was

(51:04):
anything happening in a community. And this is something like from.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
Other stories that you hear where it's like, oh, if
young boys are being killed in a town, it's the
Jews that just traveled through they did it. Instead of no,
it's actually a thing called a serial killer that you
won't know about for one hundred more years. I don't
have to tell you it's been going on for a while.
But the problem here was this his vicious campaign of propaganda,

(51:32):
scapegoating and racism. It starts with Jewish business owners, but
soon it spreads to all Jewish people and the downtrodden
Germans wanted to blame their poverty and their failure and
their heartache on anyone else, and they now had a
government sanctioned target. And this, combined with the comforting yet
psychotic fantasy that Arian blood made them the most superior

(51:56):
beings on earth, became this intoxicating drug that the nation
began shooting up with abandon thanks to Adolf Hitler. So
with these most base hatreds justified and their worst insecurities erased,
the violence of Nazism quickly spread beyond its German borders.
And Freddie and Truis, who were eight and I think twelve,

(52:21):
grew up witnessing the inhumanity of the Nazi Party firsthand.
They see the propaganda, they see the cruelty, they see
the intimidation, and it solidifies their drive to fight for justice.
So Freddie, Truis and their mother or They're all very
vocal about their resistance. They hand out anti Nazi leaflets

(52:41):
in their town, and they defaced German propaganda posters that
called on dutch Men to come and work in Germany.
So they were in it before World War Two was
even declared.

Speaker 1 (52:52):
Yeah, throw tag up on that, right, way.

Speaker 2 (52:55):
Say no way, as early as you can. Freddie's mother
begins routinely high eating Jewish refugees who are from Amsterdam
and Germany in their home before the war even started.
In nineteen thirty four, the girls gave up their bedroom
to start housing Jewish families who needed to go into hiding.
So in early nineteen forty, when Freddie is fourteen and

(53:18):
Truis is sixteen, the sisters get a visit from France
Vanderville I'm nailing and he is the commander for the
Harlem Council of Resistance, and he formally invites the family
to join in the fight, and he explains that it'll
involve military training, and the girls are like, We're in entirely,

(53:43):
of course. They're very excited about the idea of quote
starting a kind of secret army to fight the Nazis,
and the sisters become the first two women to join
the then seven person resistance group. Yes, so it's a
tiny little group and these girls are all in. Yeah,
and just in time, because in May of nineteen forty,

(54:04):
the Nazis invade the Netherlands, and with a Nazi occupation
now a reality, the work of the resistance becomes crucial,
so there isn't enough time for Freddie and Truis to
get the military training that they were promised, but they
are taught how to march and shoot in the seclusion
of the woods, so they learned some stuff, and once

(54:25):
their training is complete, the teen sisters begin their daring
acts of resistance. So one of the main things that
they were doing was transporting Jewish families and refugees to
designated hiding spots, and they were very involved with doing that,
and in fact, early on, Truis was in a boat

(54:46):
filled with Jewish children that they were trying to ship
out of the area, and the Nazis bombed the boat
and all of the children drowned. So these young girls,
and I mean we're talking about teenage girls, saw some horrific,
horrific acts of war firsthand that would then go on

(55:07):
to propel them to basically match the horror because they
knew they had to. So they did things like they
blew up railways with dynamite, They planted once a Communist
flag at the Nazi headquarters, and they rode around on

(55:27):
their bikes and it just seemed like they were two
young girls, pretty girls were riding around on bikes, and
the Nazis never suspected that they were actually two resistance fighters,
and if they had and stopped them, they would have
found that the girls were riding around with handguns in
their baskets because they weren't out for joy rides. They
were tracking Nazi targets. So basically, the resistance would name

(55:53):
the ranking usually a high ranking Nazi officer, and then
the girls would go out and find them and track
them and corner them and basically ambush them, shoot and
kill them, and then ride away unsuspected.

Speaker 1 (56:08):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (56:11):
And just I will make the point that Sophie makes
on the Inspiring Women podcast. There was no operating judicial
system in the Nazi occupied Netherlands, so there was it
was only it was a Nazi government. Now they were there,
they took over, and there was they had to fight.

Speaker 1 (56:28):
Them, you know, and they had to do something, and
there was nobody looking out for them. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:32):
And meanwhile, you know, they built doc out I think
in the early thirties, so.

Speaker 1 (56:37):
It's concentration camprasing there. Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 (56:40):
I mean they were sending almost everybody there unless you
were deemed pure white and all that shit.

Speaker 1 (56:47):
The beginning. It was communists and resistance, spiders and all
that shit.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
Anybody that was developmentally disabled, anybody that was blind, handicapped,
if you were somehow discovered to be gay, they were
sending people there. You know, I think we all know
this in all the different ways, but I mean it was,
it was. I mean, it's ridiculous to say it was

(57:11):
it was a nightmare or something like that, but I mean,
the world had turned upside down in Europe. Okay. So,
so Freddy becomes very adept at this idea of being
able to ride around because she looks younger than all
of them obviously, so she was actually the first member
of this resistance to kill a Nazi. And later Truis

(57:36):
would say about this work that she paid the price
that they all did because it wasn't it wasn't something
that they were cocky about. She said, quote, it was tragic,
very difficult, and we cried about it every time afterwards.
We did not feel it suited us. It never suits
anybody unless they are real criminals. But one loses everything.

(57:58):
It poisons the beautifull things in life.

Speaker 1 (58:01):
Yeah, if you're someone who's fighting for your freedom and
for your and for citizens' freedom. You don't want to
murder someone, no, but that's.

Speaker 2 (58:09):
But you have no choice, right, you have no choice,
and you're seeing I mean, you know, we know what
the Nazis did, and just in the day to day
these are people who came in had had absolutely no
humanity to them, you know. So that then that then
the next phase of the plan started as they got

(58:29):
a little bit older, which is the sisters began to
frequent bars where German officers hung out, and they would
get all dressed up and look really beautiful and go
and flirt with the Nazis, and then they would lure
them out into the woods where either they would shoot
them or the members of the resistance would be hiding

(58:49):
and they would get ambushed and shot. Yeah, that's what
you get for being a Nazis, right. And so then
in the spring between spring and summer of nineteen forty three,
another young woman but the name of Hanni Schofft, joins
the Harlem Council of Resistance. So she'd actively been fighting

(59:11):
against the Nazis in the Netherlands herself. She was stealing
ID cards for Jewish residents so that they could be
protected and escaping and so that they could be protected. Sorry,
the Council of Resistance approached Hani because they heard that
she had left school after refusing to sign a pledge
of loyalty to the Nazi soldiers. Her university was forcing

(59:35):
all of the students to sign. So she was like
fuck all, y'all and leaves school and the residence like
Resistance is like, hey, come and join Artie.

Speaker 1 (59:44):
Yeah, we need this.

Speaker 2 (59:47):
So together Fredri, Truis and Hani successfully assassinate many high
ranking Nazi officials, but on March twenty and it goes
on for a while, so so that then the Nazis
start to catch on that people are being murdered in
how is this happening? And Hanni had red hair, so

(01:00:08):
eventually the story starts to come out that you have
to be careful of the girl with the red hair.
So on March twenty first, nineteen forty five, Hannie is
riding her bike transporting underground papers and a pistol when
she's stopped by Nazis at a checkpoint, and because they
all know and have been warned about the girl with
red hair, they search her bike and they find the

(01:00:30):
papers and the pistol, and they realize this is the
member of the resistance that's been killing high ranking officers.
They interrogate her and they find out that she is
the person they think she is. So she is Hani Shoft.

Speaker 1 (01:00:45):
So.

Speaker 2 (01:00:45):
Hani Shoft is tortured and executed by firing squad on
April seventeenth, nineteen forty five. She was only twenty four
years old. Shit Eighteen days later, the Netherlands is liberated
from the Nazis. Yeah, so Hanni has of course since
become a national hero in the Netherlands. She was reinterred

(01:01:10):
in the honorary Cemetery Herba Golf Plots, Blumendaal in the
presence of Princess Juliana and Prince Bernard. Her legacy is
remembered throughout the country and actually in nineteen eighty one,
a movie called The Girl with the Red Hair was
made about her life. Truis would go on to speak
publicly about all of the work that she, her sister

(01:01:33):
and Hanni did during the war. Truis becomes known for
her public speaking and for her artwork. It was paintings
and sculptures that she did to kind of process what
they went through fighting and the resistance. And she also
writes a memoir called Not Then, Not Now, Not Ever.

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
Yeah Yeah Girl.

Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
None of the three women ever reveal the exact number
of Nazi officers that they assassinated, saying that their soldiers
and soldiers never reveal the number of people they've killed,
So it was very difficult. After the war, the sisters
had a really hard time. Obviously, they had very bad PTSD,

(01:02:19):
they didn't know it at the time. They had nightmares,
they had depression. They went through a lot of stuff,
and actually Freddie she preferred to stay out of the spotlight.
She got married to a man named Jan Decker and
she had three children with him, which she says is
what helped her cope with the trauma of her past.
In nineteen ninety six, Truas founds the National Hani Schoft

(01:02:43):
Foundation in the Netherlands in Hanni's memory, and the foundation
works to inform people, particularly young people, about the perils
of extremism and fascism to encourage them to actively fight
for justice in their daily lives. In twenty fourteen, Freddie
and Truis Or awarded the Mobilization War Cross, which is
a very high Dutch military honor, for their resistance work

(01:03:06):
by Prime Minister Mark Ruta. And in twenty sixteen, Truis
passes away from natural causes at the age of ninety two,
and then Freddy also passed away from natural causes. And
it was a day before her ninety third birthday. And
she's survived by her three children, her four grandchildren, and

(01:03:27):
their half brother. And if you want more information about
these three amazing women, please read Sophie Polderman's book, Seducing
and Killing Nazis. That's incredible, Yeah, honey, the full title
Seducing and Killing Nazis, Hani Trus and Freddy Freddy Dutch
resistance heroines of World War Two. It could not be

(01:03:48):
a longer title. And that is the incredibly inspiring story
of three young, young Dutch resistance fighters, Truis and Freddy
Overstagan and Hanny shot Karen.

Speaker 1 (01:04:03):
That was amazing. Explain to you correctly right. The World
War iiO explanation was amazing. I've loved it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
I'm curious, like I really have watched actually a lot
of History Channel stuff about it because it's that kind
of thing of how did this happen?

Speaker 1 (01:04:16):
How did this happen? I think it's the same thing
with true crime, where it's this crossover of like, what
what's life been like for other people? I have to
know more about it. Yes, I know it's not been
what my life is, and I just want to learn
whatever I can.

Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
And thinking about people who have been everybody every side
of victims of war and seeing how how the even
like multitudes of pain it creates, there aren't any winners really,
you know what I mean. It's like there's things get
maybe rebalanced in a better way, but there's so much,

(01:04:48):
there's so much human cost, and I think that's kind
of the like you want that to be, like, yeah,
I shot a bunch of people, but of course they're
just like, no, it was absolutely not like that at all,
because they didn't want to be in that position in
the first lay.

Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
Right, they were doing what they felt they had to do. Yeah,
for humanity. Yeah, and thank god they did because they
saved They saved a ton of people. That's incredible.

Speaker 2 (01:05:10):
Yeah, good idea, George, I thank you, good.

Speaker 1 (01:05:13):
Job here, and I'm so glad I didn't do that.
Looked very hard.

Speaker 2 (01:05:18):
I definitely am sweating a lot, but yeah, great job,
thank you. What's your fucking ray?

Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
What's a positive thing?

Speaker 2 (01:05:28):
So? Okay, this one I actually sent to you, I
believe in a text, but it's our friend Brene Brown.
And if you go on to Brene brown dot com,
there is a video on there. It's Super Soul Sessions.
So it's called the Anatomy of Trust Oprah, And right,

(01:05:49):
Oprah's still doing it for us all. And the Anatomy
of Trust is this incredible Brene Brown video that everyone
needs to watch about if you have trust issue, if
you have relationship issues, whatever it might be. It's everybody, yeah, everyone,
and it's kind of it very much reminds me of
how mind blown I was after the Vulnerability video, the

(01:06:12):
first one I saw of hers. It's so huge and viral,
but this one is really amazing about how to have
better relationships, how to build trust, and how to be trustworthy,
and how that is just as important for you to
be able to trust other people as it's like we
always want to go like, oh, but this person did

(01:06:32):
this to me or whatever, but it's like, but actually,
if you can build your own sense of trustworthiness in yourself,
which is about which is basically about knowing yourself and
having kind of a centered moral view, it's just such
an Why am I trying to and I.

Speaker 1 (01:06:49):
Haven't watched it. Like you send me stuff sometimes, Aroun,
I'm just like I can't with this right Like it's
just like too big for me right now. I always
like to do heavy shit. Yeah, and sometimes like you
gave me a really nice like grieving pamphlet recently and
I have it out on my desk and I'm just like,
I I'll get there when I can get there. You'll
get there when you need it. And then I think
this is one of those things too, where I'm just
reminding me that I need. This is exactly what I

(01:07:11):
want to talk to my therapist about this week.

Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
Yeah, it's big feelings. You definitely need like half an
hour privately so you can cry as much as you
want and as hard as you want or not at all.

Speaker 1 (01:07:20):
But there's just things.

Speaker 2 (01:07:21):
That you just go, oh yeah, Like it's just it's
very very helpful, and it actually is very kind of
like it's just kind of centering and calming in that
way where.

Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
If you have trust issues or if you're worried about
the kind of relationships you have and the way you
have them, you don't have to worry about it. You
just have to do work, that's all.

Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
And it's baby steps. It's just like you just have
to kind of become aware and do your best because
and that's like, that's why Brene Brown's so awesome because
she just goes, here's the science, here's what works, here's
what we when we do our studies, here's what we see.
And it's really it's not like any kind of finger pointing.
It's more like, ooh, what about a four step plan

(01:08:03):
to feel better in this way?

Speaker 1 (01:08:04):
It's really cool. So it's like you're talking to me,
but you are. I'm talking right in your face. Yeah,
there's nobody else.

Speaker 2 (01:08:10):
But it's the same thing with like, you know, you
recommend I mean, this is dumb, but you recommend books
to me and I just don't pay attention to you.

Speaker 1 (01:08:16):
And then I come back and go, have you read
this book?

Speaker 2 (01:08:18):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:08:18):
I told you to read that book. It's this. I
think we all take it in when we're supposed to. Yeah.
So it's just like put that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
In your put you know, put that in your filing cabinet,
see what happens. But to anybody else that's that kind
of like is looking for this thing. You can't go
wrong on Brene brown dot com anyway. Yeah, but that video,
especially because my therapist isn't been telling me to watch it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:39):
For literally three years. Oh wow.

Speaker 2 (01:08:41):
And then I finally was like, fine, fine, you gonna.

Speaker 1 (01:08:44):
Have like a daily the Daily Brene website. We're just
post a daily Brenee quote for really on her Instagram.
There's a lot of data. But what she's doing on Instagram,
that's great. I mean, I'll watch it finally. Yeah, when
you feel like it was going to be that I
finally cooked a meal for literally the first time in
like a year. Oh shit. You know, I love cooking,

(01:09:05):
but I just don't have time to do it, and
it just takes so long.

Speaker 2 (01:09:09):
It's overwhelming.

Speaker 1 (01:09:09):
It was going to be that I cut my finger
real bad. What did you make? I just made a
little chicken and vegetables meal.

Speaker 2 (01:09:16):
Oh like.

Speaker 1 (01:09:17):
I then tapped the knife on accident and sliced. I
guess I have nice knives, you do. That was going
to be my fucking hourray. But then just coming here tonight,
I saw a corky puppy in the parking lot named Schmutz,
And then I think I need a puppy now. So
that's my fucking array. Schmutz. This teeny corky puppy. That
just changed my life.

Speaker 2 (01:09:37):
I can't imagine anything would be cuter than a corky puppy.

Speaker 1 (01:09:41):
It's I just stood there and the sweet woman was like,
we're do you want to do you want to say
hi to me? A little kid? It's like, I do
I really need to say hi to Shot? Yes? I
do need to talk to Schmuts real bad. It was
very sweet. And then you like she tried to bite
my shoelaces. The puppy, not the one women.

Speaker 2 (01:10:01):
Man, Please, I'm trying to talk to your dog.

Speaker 1 (01:10:04):
It was it kind of was life changing. Yeah, you
really were lit up when you came in, Oh my god, screaming.
You were just pointing toward the door, like do you
know what? There was a out there? I mean it
was okay, guys, thanks for listening. We appreciate you guys
so much. This is fucking incredible and we're so lucky.
We still love our job. That's right, It's so nice. Yeah,

(01:10:27):
thanks for listening.

Speaker 2 (01:10:28):
Yeah, thanks for making it happen for us, and stay sexy.

Speaker 1 (01:10:30):
And don't get murdered. Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want to
cook e