470 - Accept No Dare

This week, Georgia covers the disappearance of John Darwin and Karen tells the story of Victorian-era activist Josephine Butler.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:16):
Hello, and welcome to my favorite murder.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
That's Georgia Hartstar. That's Karen Kilgera, and we're here to
podcast for you women and women lovers.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
That's right, it's Women's History Month. Can you do we
have any history?

Speaker 2 (00:29):
No, we haven't done much. We've just been hanging out
brushing our.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
Hair, waiting to get our rights taken away a little more.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
You know, guys, we have these pins and they're for sale,
and we just wanted you to see them in our
hands because we love them very much.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
They're like gonna let us like play with our merch.
Nowhi's so fun. They let us touch it.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
So you could get a twelve foot skeleton pin if
you would like to, with articulated arms and legs and yeah,
I was gonna say hips, but it's just the arms
and legs.

Speaker 1 (00:59):
Or this little spinner guy. And every morning when you
wake up you can spin it and see is today,
Stay sexy, don't get murdered. It's today. Here's the thing.
Fuck everyone is today? This is terrible? Keep going? Or
is today stay out of the forest. It's like a.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
Wheel of fortune slash advice thing.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
How cute is that?

Speaker 2 (01:16):
I mean, that's a good gift for the people who know.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
Oh, look how cute it looks on your I put
that on my leather jacket.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
I put this on this that looks good.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
There, this right here actually really works.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
Instead of an alligator. I was going to tell you that.
Over on Blue Sky, which is a brand new platform
though a lot of people don't know how to use,
a user named obbs handle Obs said, Hey, did you
guys know that you're on one of the top recommendations
on good Reads for women's history month, like autobiography, Read.

Speaker 1 (01:48):
First, Stay Sexy and Don't get murdered, our memoir, our.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
One and only book. Oh my god, pretty cool, right, yeah,
thanks Obbs for letting us know because we didn't know.

Speaker 1 (01:57):
Obviously we didn't know.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
Obbs is there making sure.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
Let's get that book and on again. Yea, that that
was so fun. Oh my god, the book days, the
book days, like writing that book, and I'm still so
proud of it, even though I haven't read it in
a long time. It might not hold up, but.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
That doesn't matter. No, really, whose book holds its? None
of are supposed to hold.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
It's none of our business.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
That'd be funny if, like all the great Russian novelists
were like, it doesn't just make another one.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
Yeah, it's not supposed to read it while you're Yeah,
I read it in the moment I have. Speaking of reading,
I have an email about my story last week, perfect
about the great train robbery that I covered it, says
hi All. On Wednesday, February twenty sixth, I went to
a weekly bar trivia with my friends down in San Diego.
We've been going off and onto a handful of bars
for about ten years, which I think I want to
start doing now bar trivia. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:44):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (02:44):
During the second round, which is typically very easy, they
asked the question what vehicle was used in the nineteen
sixty three British crime that broke the record for most
money stolen? It once, but it was Wednesday. As someone
who has listened to every episode and Minnesota of MFM,
many other true crime podcasts and lots of stuff you
should know, I was completely stummed and baffled that I

(03:05):
would not know this answer. We ended up guessing a
double decker bus, since it was the most quintessential British
vehicle we could think of.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
No, I love that, that's so hilariously.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
And then the answer was simply train. I was chagrin
and to add insult to injury. The next day, Thursday,
Avery twenty seventh, what pops up on my podcast playlist
but the newest episode of MFM about the nineteen sixty
three British train robbery. As I listen to the episode
with mild Eyre, you mentioned that you were helping stack
up intel for someone's pub trivia. Remember what because of

(03:38):
the Sopranos song that one of the sons of one
of the robbers. That's right, and we're like, this is
good for you for your future pub trivia.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
Right.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
I was stopped in my tracks with the glitchy matrix.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
Of it all.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
That is so weird. That's weird anyway, love you all,
Thank you, and maybe I'll switch to a Thursday night
trivia bar from here on out. Thanks Laura, Like.

Speaker 2 (03:58):
Uh, Laura, perfect, Laura, thank you, thank you. That must
have really free de Laura.

Speaker 1 (04:04):
I would have been so angry.

Speaker 2 (04:05):
Also, it does seem like it would be a good
idea to listen to all of your trivia ish or
like kind of like specific information podcasts before you go
to those yeah trivia nights.

Speaker 1 (04:18):
Yeah, but what if it hasn't even come out yet.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
The trivia.

Speaker 1 (04:21):
Yeah, no, the podcast, oh, because it was on Wednesday.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
You can't come.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
You can't listen in the future.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
You can't go around and learn things that aren't out
in the world.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
No, you can't know which you don't know. You can't
literally and you wrote like shouldn't probably too.

Speaker 2 (04:35):
But I think that's what kind of pub trivia nights
are all about, is like you're supposed to know everything
in the world, and if you don't, you better go
drink in the corner.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
Or you have enough friends that do yes and thank you,
like not seem stupid.

Speaker 2 (04:46):
Everyone comes in with their specific thing where it's like, yes,
I'm TV from nineteen seventy eight.

Speaker 1 (04:51):
That's like what I love about pub trivia. That was
like you hang out with people you normally wouldn't hang
out with because like they're not the people that know
everything that you know, and we have this like sinky thing.
It's like the people who are like, oh, that's random
so and so and he knows every single fucking thing
about coding or everything everything with politics. I never see
him and it's like, well that's perfect.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
Come to pop trivia, Come and I will talk to you.
Geography guy right, Yes, yeah, what do you get just
this little skeleton front? I have nothing else? Should we
do some highlight?

Speaker 1 (05:20):
All right? We have a podcast network called Exactly Right,
and we want you to listen to all the podcasts
on it, which is why we're giving you some highlights.

Speaker 2 (05:28):
Like, for example, this week on this podcast will Kill You,
Aaron and Aaron are launching their brand new four part
pregnancy series Huge Amazing. So on Tuesday, March eleventh, you
can be part of the excitement by going to YouTube.
They're doing a special YouTube premiere of the very first episode.
So it's a video episode of this podcast Will Kill You.

(05:49):
If you've been listening to the Errands explain every disease
and body part and thing to you over the years,
you can now go watch them do it. It's very important,
see and you just get to interact video style with
that podcast.

Speaker 1 (06:04):
So on March eleventh, at five pm Pacific Standard time,
you can watch the show. You can chat with everyone
and get your questions answered, your pregnancy questions answered in
real time. Please go to YouTube dot com slash exactly
Write Media. Make sure you subscribe because we're gonna be
throwing some cool videos up there.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (06:20):
And this is just like the very first of many
to come.

Speaker 2 (06:22):
It's video time. It's over here.

Speaker 1 (06:24):
You could see them in our studios and are actual
that came and saw us. It was exciting.

Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yes, the Errands are here. Yeah, it's like the characters
from another place come and interact in this board game.

Speaker 1 (06:35):
And the pregnancy thing, I mean, I am a weirdo
and I'm fascinated and I know a ton of stuff
about pregnancy, and so I love the idea of just
like and I'm never gonna do it, but this is
a great way to relate to your friends who are
yes and will and can and should.

Speaker 2 (06:48):
Totally what they go through and all of it and
understanding or if it is what you are going through
and you have questions and whatever. These are two amazing
doctors who love to teach through other podcast Yes, sorry,
I don't mean to do a speech over on Deer Movies,
I love you. Millie and Casey take a deep dive

(07:10):
into Quentin Tarantino's film The Hateful Eight, and they also
chat with Brian Sore from the Pure Cinema podcast to
tackle an essential question, how to sound like a movie
buff without being insufferable.

Speaker 1 (07:23):
Spoiler alert it's impossible too, absolutely, and then that's messed up.
Lisa and Kara breakdown SVU episode six, season three titled
Redemption to explore the wrongful convictions tied to the crimes
of Eddie Moseley, and they also sit down with actor
David Keith to talk about his time on SVU and
his incredible career.

Speaker 2 (07:42):
They have David Keith on their.

Speaker 1 (07:44):
Podcast Fucking Insane.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
That's like one of my foundational memories. He was on
TV when I started to understand there was a TV
in the room.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
Wow, this man is a legend, legendary.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
So cool, okay. Also this week on Ghosted, ros welcomes
filmmakers Shannon Alexander and Ashley Roland White to share some
spine tingling stories from Ashley's haunted Brooklyn home, which is
the eerie setting of their documentary entitled It's Coming Hell Yeah,
which is the scariest time maybe I've ever heard scary.

(08:16):
So if you let go stories that keep you up
at night, go listen to this episode. It's for you.

Speaker 1 (08:20):
You know, my sister recently had found out she had
a gas leak in her house, and I was like,
have you been seeing ghosts? Because that's my big theory,
you know. And she hasn't. Oh, she's just been tired.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
She's been snapping eighteen hours a day. Oh god, that's
so scary.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
And it's been for like a year. Oh, she goes,
tell me, you're the child of a narcissistic parent without
telling me. And it's like, because I ignored a gas
leak for a year and he said, it must have
been in my head. Don't worry about it, don't be annoying. Yep.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
Don't have needs.

Speaker 1 (08:48):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
Don't need clean fresh air for you and your family.

Speaker 1 (08:51):
Right, Okay. Anyway, speaking of hauntings, some.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
Of them, speaking of sorrow, some of our.

Speaker 1 (08:57):
Most popular merch has returned from it sold out purgatory
because you guys love them so much. For those looking
to upgrade their Jeane jacket. As we said, we have
the Skeleton pin and the MFM moodpin. They are restocked.
These both sold out, so make sure you go get
them at exactly rightstore dot com.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
Yay, yay, Okay.

Speaker 1 (09:21):
This is kind of I'm not going to call it
a fun one because this podcast is called My Favorite Murder. However,
it is a caper. I would call it like an
adventure caper that was really big in the UK in
the like early mid two thousands, huge story that I
maybe had heard of but like didn't remember. I bet
you'll know it. So it's five thirty pm. It's December one,

(09:46):
two thousand and seven. Oh what you know. We're at
the West End Central Police Station in the middle of London. Busy,
beautiful London. You know, people are shopping, there's tourists, people
are meeting for drinks after work. They're on the way
to the theaters.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
You're talking in British acts, beautiful British accent on the stuff.

Speaker 1 (10:05):
I got double decker buses, pipes, robbing trains.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
One hundred and one Dalmatian. Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (10:11):
So a man walks into the police station. He appears
to be in his mid fifties. He's like clean cut,
he's in good health. He's got a tan, which is
rare for London, frankly, and he says to the officer quote,
I think I may be a missing person. So there
do some probing and they realize he is a man

(10:33):
who very famously went missing five years earlier, in two
thousand and two. His name is John Darwin. He had
set out in a kayak. Here's the thing. For the
rest of this Kayak and canoe are going to be
interchangeable because either they're the same thing over there or
they are interchangeable over there. But when I say canoe,
I mean kayak. When I say kayak, I mean canoe. Okay,

(10:55):
I'm going to stick with canoe.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
The fact that you have said this, though, I'm pretty
sure I've seen this made for TV movie.

Speaker 1 (11:01):
There's a made for TV movie and a great documentary.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
And is mister Darcy the star of the made for
TV movie didn't watch it? Is he? I think he
is the real documentary, not mister Darcy, but I think
I've seen it.

Speaker 1 (11:13):
But can I tell you what he looks like, just
so you can picture it? And it's like a spitting
image of He's a British John McEnroe, the famous tennis player. Okay,
spitting image okay to me. So he had set out
in a kayak from a beach near his home and
was presumed dead lost at sea. But John, this guy
who walks in says he can't remember anything that's happened
to him in the past seven years, basically from two

(11:36):
years before he paddled away. He basically is like I
must have amnesia. He says, quote, I have hazy recollections
of being in a kayak, but I cannot remember the
accident or anything leading up to it at all. It
is therefore true to say that I do have some
form of amnesia. End quote. That's his story.

Speaker 2 (11:53):
But you know how amnijiacs always talk like that, where
they're like, well, it could be this, or it could
be that, as opposed to just I don't know help me,
I don't know where I am.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
Yeah, I would imagine. But the neurologist who examines him
is immediately skeptical about his amnesia claims, and from there
the story begins to unravel into what will very quickly
become a British tabloid sensation. This is the story of
the disappearance of John Darwin. The main sources for the
story are a reporting from The Guardian and a book

(12:23):
called Out of My Depth by Anne Darwin, the wife,
and the rest of the sources can be found in
our show notes. Okay, so let me tell you about
the Darwins. Let's back up to the day Darwin first
became a missing person. So that was March twenty second,
two thousand and two and Ali Elkin, my researcher, wrote
Nickelbacks How You Remind Me is the top of the

(12:44):
US charts and at number four in the UK. I
love the time and place Nickelback.

Speaker 2 (12:50):
That's all you need to hear, all you need. It
was the peak of Nickelback seasons.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
And it's number four in the UK. Where our story
takes place beautiful. I love the way she just brought
it brilliant around. John and his wife Anne live in
the seaside town of Seaton Carew. Huh. It's on the
northeast coast of England, not too far from Newcastle. It's
like a beach town, a little bit run down, you know.
It used to be a big touristy thing and I

(13:16):
think it's not so much anymore. John and Ann Darwin
are a couple in their early fifties. Ann works as
a receptionist in a doctor's office and John is a
corrections officer and a prison and seems to get along
with the prisoners really well, which is interesting. He had
previously been a math and science teacher and had worked
for a bank before that. And the couple are also landlords.

(13:38):
They rent out bedsits, which basically to us would be
if you rented like a bedroom and then the bathroom
is down the hall and you shared that with all
the other tenants. So a bedsit single room occupancy apartments. Okay, basically,
so that's.

Speaker 2 (13:50):
For when you're writing your novel.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
Right down by the seaside, it is a beautiful, like
old Victorian looking place down by this, like you know,
overcast British Sea. It's really bird full, picturesque. The Darwin's
own twelve houses in the area and they've all been
converted into these bedsits, so they're not that expensive. Like
that's that's the thing too about the area where they
can they people who are just have normal jobs can

(14:13):
buy these houses and turn it into this and make
money off of them. So it's not like you're not
in London, you know.

Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:19):
John has always been involved in side hustles, which aka
get rich quick schemes. One involved and this is a
great idea, breeding snails to sell to restaurants for es cargo, Like, yeah,
where do the snails come from? To do it? Farm
those snails?

Speaker 2 (14:34):
I mean, now, I just want to ask somebody all
about like is there a certain way you have to
do it that makes it food grade quality exactly.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
And then also like the is it like salmon where
you're like, that's farm raised. I can tell because of
the color, and like it's better to get a texture.
Have you ever had as cargo? I've had it a
couple times. What do you think it's a really good
chewy thing.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
Do you think it'd be as good without all the garlic?

Speaker 1 (14:57):
No? No, no, no no. It's the garlic and butter that
makes it parsley that makes it good, and the bread
it's not bad. It's you don't taste snail, but you
just know you're eating snail. Now.

Speaker 2 (15:07):
I truly want to listen to a podcast about how
as cargo became any kind of a thing that people.

Speaker 1 (15:12):
Are Aaron and Aaron this podcast will kill you actually,
because there's that one boy who ate a slug in
like Australia and fucking died. Oh ate it like poisonous
slug as a dare Tony.

Speaker 2 (15:23):
Don't do that.

Speaker 1 (15:25):
Dare powder pillars are my worst names.

Speaker 2 (15:27):
If someone dares you know, what you say back to
that person is why is there no one at home
with you? What's wrong with you?

Speaker 1 (15:34):
Why am I a teenage boy?

Speaker 2 (15:35):
Why are you? What's happen?

Speaker 1 (15:37):
Boys? Oh my god?

Speaker 2 (15:38):
Okay, you eat a poison thing? Okay, which in nature
we know are poisonous because they're like bright yellow, right,
black and white stripe.

Speaker 1 (15:46):
Don't do it? Okay, So tell us about snails. Snail
renos please, Oh my gosh, gotta be the subgroup that
loves escargo needs to be united, right, a French subgroup
of murder renos? What like, how do they call it themselves?
There you go, thank you? Okay. Another get rich quick
scheme involves painting gnomes to sell it flea markets, because

(16:07):
you know, they just come into like and then you
just paint them, i know, red hat yeah right, or
like maybe they're kitchy and like different.

Speaker 2 (16:14):
You know, some have really red cheeks like me.

Speaker 1 (16:18):
Some are Irish. By two thousand and two, John and
Anne's two sons, Mark and Anthony, what are in their
mid twenties and kind of hot too. Oh yeah, yeah,
they're kind of like, you know, hot British.

Speaker 2 (16:30):
Dudes fit as the British with it they are fit.

Speaker 1 (16:33):
Then they no longer live at home. John and Anne
live in a big Victorian townhouse in a row of
similar townhouses that line. This cliff overlooking the sea, very beautiful.
They actually own two properties in this row, the one
they live in and then the one next door that
is converted to bedsits. This will be important, nice work.
So at eight thirty in the morning on March twenty second,
two thousand and two, John sets out in his red

(16:54):
kayak or canoe, paddling out to sea. It's just a
hobby of his, okay. That morning, a neighbor sees John
in the distance paddling in the water. He's the last
person to see John, and John doesn't come back from
his morning paddle, but no one reports him missing until
nine thirty that night, which is when Ann comes home
from work and running errands. And here's the message on

(17:14):
the answering machine from the prison where John works, saying
that he never shut up for his night shift, so
he left early in the morning and it wasn't until
nine thirty at night. By midnight, a huge search and
rescue operation is underway and continues into the next day.
Five crews from the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, two boats
from the Coastguard, and one police aircraft with heat seeking

(17:35):
equipment search a sixty two square mile area around the
waters where John is lasting paddling. So this is a
big deal. This is this big scary deal that this
person could be lost at sea. Police search the shoreline,
and at about one fifteen the following afternoon, one of
the searchers finds a kayak paddle. It's found by the shore,
not too far from the town they live in and

(17:58):
not too far from where John had set off. Of course,
without his paddle, they know John would be adrift, so
this is even a bigger emergency. But the rescue teams
are puzzled because the north Sea where John was in
has been unusually calm, and everyone is wondering how John
could have had any issues in such good weather. But
the search and rescue teams find no sign of John
or his kayak, and people begin to fear the worst,

(18:21):
and Darwin asks relatives to go tell her two sons
that their father is missing and that it doesn't look good,
and the sons are of course devastated. They're even more
devastated four days later when the rescue mission is called off.
About six weeks later, on May eighth, the wreckage of
John's kayak is found. It's in several pieces, but it's
washed up on the shore, and that same area his

(18:43):
paddle had been found. The family confirms that the wreckage
is John's kayak. So April of two thousand and three,
the coroner declares John legally dead. At this point, Anne
can file a claim on his life insurance policy, which
is worth about two hundred and fifty pounds in two
thousand and three, which in days US dollars hold.

Speaker 2 (19:04):
On two hundred and fifty thousand pound.

Speaker 1 (19:05):
Two hundred and fifty thousand pounds. You said two undred
fifty pounds. I didn't mean that two hundred and fifty
thousand pounds in today's US dollars.

Speaker 2 (19:13):
I mean just take a whild gat from two thousand
and three.

Speaker 1 (19:16):
And then you have to convert it from pounds to dollars.

Speaker 2 (19:18):
Can't do that. Won't do that. Here's my American answer. Okay,
four hundred thousand, six hundred and ninety thousand.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
I know.

Speaker 2 (19:27):
So I just want that day where I say, the
one day one of us was going to get it
and the podcast is over, That's just the day that
all Then the lights immediately shut off and we walk away.

Speaker 1 (19:36):
The landlord comes in and gets the keys back to
those all these offices. It's over. It's a lot of money.
And John also had a few pensions from his various jobs,
and so Anne is able to collect benefits on those
two and life seems to go on for the rest
of the family. Now, obviously at this point we know
what's going on, you and I and everyone else. Spoiler alert.

(19:57):
John had faked his own death so he and his
wife could collect on the insurance money. Shocker.

Speaker 2 (20:02):
But she Anne doesn't know this yet, right or does she?
Are you gonna tell us? I'm gonna tell you, Okay, sorry,
because I'm trying to remember this TV show, So I'm like,
what happened?

Speaker 1 (20:12):
I'll tell you, Okay. The answer is yes. Anne was
in it all along. The way. She later tells the story.
She says John had put immense pressure on her to
go along with his life insurance broad scheme. The couple
were very overextended on all of their real estate, and
John came up with this idea of faking his own
death to get them out of debt. I think they
were like sixty thousand dollars in debt and they had

(20:35):
all these rental properties they couldn't cover their mortgage for
so on the day that John went out to see
and I can't imagine being talked into this, So either
he was very persuasive or she was like, let's do it.

Speaker 2 (20:47):
Here's a fun factoid. The woman that plays the wife
in the made for TV I guess it was a
mini series. That was Monica Dolan, who's the same actress
who played Rose West in the mini series about Fred
and Rose.

Speaker 1 (21:03):
Well, yes, she.

Speaker 2 (21:04):
Is a powerhouseporterish actress, character actress and playing this kind
of beleaguered, put upon wife. It's you have so much
empathy for her.

Speaker 1 (21:15):
She can do it all.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah, and she's so great and she's so harried from
the like freaked out from the beginning, and it does
seem a little bit just from.

Speaker 1 (21:25):
Yeah, who knows the way they portray her.

Speaker 2 (21:27):
But that he is kind of like won't leave her
alone and there's a little bit like almost OCD about
it and won't leave her alone about it and then
she just has to give in.

Speaker 1 (21:35):
That from the documentary, I got that idea too. She
was like, like, you know, she had been promised this
life because he was like always in scheming and stuff
like that and it wasn't happening and he just was
like this is the way it has to go, and
she went along with it, kind of old school wifey
type of thing, right right, you know. On the day
when John went out to see he made sure he
was seen struggling with his kayak down to the shoreline,

(21:58):
acting bad physic galact to totally. He paddled to north Gear,
where his paddle and kayak had ultimately been found, and
it's a five minute drive from his house. So he
had packed camping gear and closed into the canoe with him,
and he spent the rest of the day hiding in
the dunes. And then he tried to throw the paddle
out to sea, but it kept washing ashore. Oh my god.

(22:20):
He winds up leaving the paddle close to the shore
where it was found the next day. He just was
like wanting people to find.

Speaker 2 (22:24):
It, like, yeah, puts it right there, right.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
He sinks the canoe and in the afternoon of the
day he disappears. Before he's reported missing. John actually calls
Anne at work to remind her to pick him up
from his hiding spot that evening, so she's in it
from the beginning. She had already been at work by
the time John left the house, and she says that
when she saw that he was calling, she'd hoped he
was saying that he hadn't gone through with the plan,

(22:49):
but nope, John had gone through with the plan. After
Anne picks him up at about seven in the evening,
she drives him to a train station in Durham, not
the closest one to their home, because John thinks last
will look at that station CCTV footage. She parks on
a side street, still trying to avoid cameras, and then
John gets out of the car with his camping gear
and clothes and gets on the first of a series

(23:09):
of trains. He winds up in Cumbria. It's a scenic
part of northern England on the opposite coast from where
the Darwins live. First he stays at a B and B,
but then he sees himself on the news on a
TV there, and so he quickly checks out and camps
in the woods for about three weeks. I know he
had originally intended to stay away a lot longer, but

(23:30):
turns out living outdoors sucks and he's cold and hungry,
and so he calls Anne and begs sort of pick
him up.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
I just and look, you're desperate you're trying to put
a plant together, yeah, but not walking it all the
way through to like what about in one month, two month,
three months, where it's like he went and stayed at
in like a bed and breakfast the night that he
was supposed to have disappeared.

Speaker 1 (23:53):
Yeah, and like it sounds like an adventure when you're
like mapping it out in your head. I'll live in
the forest and I'll have those camping gearns like that.
That lasts a week and then you're.

Speaker 2 (24:03):
Like, fuck this shit, it's freezing out here.

Speaker 1 (24:05):
It's freezing out to fucking shit in a hole, Like no,
thank you.

Speaker 2 (24:09):
Yeah, there's no crisps.

Speaker 1 (24:11):
There's no crisps.

Speaker 2 (24:11):
No one's fit. Also trying to like manipulate the ocean
to do what you want to do to back up
your story, just as a person who grew up near
the coast is such a bad idea, right, it's never like,
first of all, there's experts that know the tides, they
know they watch it constantly. I mean it kind of worked,
but there were people who are like, right, yeah, you

(24:32):
say there were people who were.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
Yeah, they were skeptical of the story, but they're just.

Speaker 2 (24:36):
Like, nothing's happening. Why would anything be happening.

Speaker 1 (24:38):
Yeah, I think everyone, like the insurance adjuster, everyone is like,
m I don't know about that, but there's no proof otherwise,
So yeah, okay, she just didn't have any proof otherwise. But yeah,
I think people were not fooled.

Speaker 2 (24:49):
They're like, oh, this is the one sneaker wave that
hits this time of.

Speaker 1 (24:52):
The right, or he went under a boat, I don't know.
So he called in and begs her to pick him up.
So they return home and and he now pretends to
be a new tenant living in one of the apartments
in the house next door, in the bedsit next door.
So he's like, I'm going to pretend to be someone else, okay,
in the exact spot that I just left three weeks.

Speaker 2 (25:11):
Ago, and you proof could have done it from the right.

Speaker 1 (25:15):
So the two houses actually have several connecting doors in
between them. So John's able to hang out in his
old house with Anne, have a cup of tea and
chill there and like basically live there until people come
over and he runs next door to hide, and so
no one else knows but Anne and Anne will later
stay in an interview quote, fortunately we had a gravel driveway,

(25:37):
so if cars approached, we could hear them come, so.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
They always had thirty seconds minimum right to get to run.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
Yeah, I'm sure she got sick of him real fast
day in home all day right.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
Well, and also because he's pulled her into this thing. Yeah,
like yeah, that would get old real quick.

Speaker 1 (25:53):
Very quick. So he now goes by the name Carl
Fenwick as this new tenant next door.

Speaker 2 (25:58):
Yeah, he had a mouthful of dipe scene. It just
sounds so stupid. It's just like, you know, Carl quick,
do you know me? It's your old powel them Wick.

Speaker 1 (26:12):
Hey, look at me. I have a scraggly beard, I
have an exaggerated limp for some reason. I'm definitely not
John Darwin for real. And he basically like people see
him and they know that there's this guy who a
new tenant who lives there, who helps Anne with stuff
around the house like repairs and the properties. This man,
this new not John Darwin guy, also avoids interactions with

(26:35):
any of the other tenants in the house who knew John.
And he uses the back staircase to access, you know,
his room.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
It's all just waiting for an online sleuth to like
pick up on a couple things, and then.

Speaker 1 (26:48):
There is an online sloop in the story. Sorry, sorry, no, no,
it's great.

Speaker 2 (26:51):
I'm gonna keep doing that though, because I already saw
the show, and then I'm just forgetting and then remember,
it's good.

Speaker 1 (26:57):
That you saw it and I didn't, even though I'm
telling you the story. It's a good thing, okay somehow.
So then actually, about a year after John's disappearance, John
as Carl Fenwick actually bumps into another tenant. He sees
the scraggly guy and he's like, he says to him,
aren't you supposed to be dead? Like he knows it's
John Darwin. He's seen this guy before. And then John says,

(27:19):
don't tell anyone about this. And it seems like a
couple people actually thought they saw him or are sure
they saw him. And you know, British people, they're just
like none of my business.

Speaker 2 (27:28):
Truly, yeah, low key. They get embarrassed really easy.

Speaker 1 (27:32):
Right, Like I don't want to get involved. I don't
want to get involved.

Speaker 2 (27:34):
No one's going to start pointing and shouting over there
in England.

Speaker 1 (27:36):
No, there are there are no snitches in anyone, not
in the leads. They don't do that.

Speaker 2 (27:40):
No, snitches and no stitches.

Speaker 1 (27:42):
That's right. So John Evade's detection by authorities. He spends
a lot of time playing online computer games in his
bedsit that's good life, sure. Then he applies for a
passport by stealing the identity of a baby who had
died in infancy the same year he was born, also
named John, and and says John got this idea from

(28:03):
the book The Day of the Jackal, and it works.
He gets a copy of the baby's birth certificate and
is able to use it to apply for a passport
under the name John Jones. So we have a third name. Now,
what's the second name? Carl Fenwick? Yeah, Fenny. We call
him Fenny. At the local pub, John is like kind
of fairly brazen. He goes out in public. He then

(28:26):
also like nowadays this passport, he flies to Spain in
two thousand and five. I think they go on a
couple of holidays as they call it. With that huge
fucking windfall of money right from his death. In two
thousand and six, he uses his fake name to sign
a petition against planned construction that's supposed to happen to
the house next door, Like, don't put your fucking names

(28:46):
down again.

Speaker 2 (28:47):
He's got to.

Speaker 1 (28:48):
Yeah, he's kind of just like, wop, this is over
now and I can move.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
On because he believes that like the reality he's dictating
is reality.

Speaker 1 (28:55):
Absolutely, What is that sociopath?

Speaker 2 (28:58):
Or like I don't know what we're we all do
and we're just kind of like it's a fight of
delusional something. Yeah, but I mean to me, his delusion
is that thing of like it's as delusional the thing
he did as now the way he's acting within it.
Like I just don't want to be doing this anymore.

Speaker 1 (29:14):
Right, It's not like one is more than the other, right,
But it's just what he decides. It's a temperature is
that day.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
It's all a Carl Fenwick style plan.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
It surely is. So. At this point in two thousand
and six, Anna and John start making a plan to
move to Panama together, Like she's stuck by this guy's side.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
She lists both of those properties in Seaton carew and
the house sells, and so she has her sons come
over to help her clean it out. Now the sons
never know about the scheme. The sons think their dad
was lost at sea, which is really the most heartbreaking
part of this whole story. Yeah, she has them select
items of their fathers that they want to keep, like
keepsakes for him, and one of the sons actually selects

(29:57):
a book that later they realize was like that it
was the dad's that they later realized was published after
he disappeared. So John and Ann do move to Panama
in the fall of two thousand and seven, and it's
at the same time that the police start investigating them.
Basically what happens is in the lead up to the move,
one of Anne's colleagues, who's a snitch, turns out here's

(30:19):
her having hushed conversations on the phone, which is weird.
The tone of the conversation is exactly the way she
would have talked to her husband. So this chick's nosy
as fuck, and she's also she's always whispering and covering
the receiver. Just fishy business.

Speaker 2 (30:33):
It was tough back then when everyone used the phone, right,
and you'd kind of like stuff would happen and then
you'd have to do weird stuff.

Speaker 1 (30:39):
I feel like you're in the doct you're in the
doctor's office where you work, and you're just like.

Speaker 2 (30:42):
She pulled a long cord around into a different like
into the coffee room, right.

Speaker 1 (30:47):
So this coworker just has a gut feeling that she's
talking to her husband, and she reports her suspicions to
the police. So they start reinvestigating John's disappearance.

Speaker 2 (30:56):
What's the she must have not which to get out
of it? Yeah, or she thinks it's something.

Speaker 1 (31:03):
Worse than oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:06):
Only just because knowing the overall crime. It's so self
serving that it's like, yeah, I don't know if citizen
like i'd like to make a citizen's it's.

Speaker 1 (31:16):
Really law abiding in a way that like what was
she like, really, I don't know, you know, no shame,
no shame, no.

Speaker 2 (31:23):
Shade, A little bit of both, half a cup of shade, yes,
and just a droplet of shame.

Speaker 1 (31:28):
That's it. And so John and Ann don't know yet
that they're being looked into, and so they make that
plan move to Panama, but they're only there for three
months before John was like fuck this shit basically and
has to go back to the UK because Panama had
changed its visa rules. So if they actually wanted to
continue living there, John and Anne will each need a
letter from their local police force back home saying they

(31:51):
are a good character. So John of course can't do
this with his fake identity, and so he's like, I
have an idea, amnesia do this, And he flies back
to the UK and walks into that police station and
is like, I think I'm a missing person.

Speaker 2 (32:06):
And at this point when he pitches that idea to her,
she's just what she's I'm bagging you. Yeah, I'm begging
you to stop.

Speaker 1 (32:13):
Just please, what do you do? So that's December of
two thousand and seven when he walks back into the
police from the beginning of the story. Again, neurologists are
immediately doubtful, but the police still notify John's two sons,
who are shocked and then absolutely elated to find out
that their father, who they believed was said for five
years lost at sea, is still alive. The story catches

(32:36):
on at the man who is thought dead in a
canoeing accident has turned up alive in London and that
he seemingly can't account for the past five years. The
detail that his wife had moved to Panama also becomes
part of the story. I think people at first were like,
kind of believe the story, right, I'm sure a lot
were like, there's more to it. Than that. But this
is interesting and immediately is like tabloid.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
It's like, you understand why the tabloids pick stories they
pig Yeah, because it's almost like, what's your neighbor up to?

Speaker 1 (33:03):
Right?

Speaker 2 (33:03):
Oh you think you think that guy with the beard
is just what's his name, Carl.

Speaker 1 (33:08):
Carl Fenwick. Yeah, it's sensational. No, that's fucking John Darwin.
Everyone's known that. Okay, then here comes our citizens leuth.
So this random woman decides to google something along the
lines of John Ann and Panama, and when she goes
to the images tab she finds a picture from a
Panama real estate agent's office. It shows John Ann and

(33:31):
the broker all smiling together with a date stamp from
two thousand and six when they rented this apartment or
they bought this house. I don't know which is. But
and this whole time had been saying that she thought
her husband was dead, and so they find this photo
of them from like a year before, smiling. Why would
you take a picture? Don't let anyone take a picture
of you. Don't sign any fucking forms like basics.

Speaker 2 (33:52):
But don't you think that's because that is the last
remnants of people who did not grow up with the Internet.
I don't understand why go on the internet. Yeah, it's
like it's a picture. It's going to stay in South America. Yeah,
and there will be nothing that brings it out of
this area, right, just for the real estate age.

Speaker 1 (34:07):
It's two thousand and six. We don't do that shit
right now. No, And then it's like, yeah, totally, so
this like basically Anne had been insisting that she knew nothing,
she thought her husband was dead. Everything falls apart. This
woman sends the photo to police and the Daily Mirror,
and the Mirror of course runs the photo, and the
story goes from being kind of a simple, mildly interesting

(34:28):
story to causing a complete uproar, and John becomes known
around the UK as canoe man like front page the
photo of them from the real estate office smiling like
nobody's business. On December fifth, the same day the photo
runs in the Mirror, John is arrested for fraud, which
is not surprising at all, Right, Like, you just kind

(34:49):
of humiliated the police even though they were onto you.
But it's been five years and they believe this.

Speaker 2 (34:55):
Yeah, and no one could kind of do anything about.

Speaker 1 (34:57):
It, right. Anne flies back to the UK and also
promptly arrested. Just a few days after these arrests, Mark
and Anthony, the Fit sons, release a statement saying they
had no idea that their father was alive, and they
are cooperating with police and that they are no longer
speaking to either of their parents. I know, devastating.

Speaker 2 (35:15):
They are truly the victims. It seems like also the wife,
but she did go along with it, because that is
kind of what that hole she deceived them made for
TV movie is where it's like, that's the part she
can't explain and they're like, what the hell?

Speaker 1 (35:28):
I mean, it's almost worse for her because she had
to light on their faces for five years when he
could just skid at all, you know.

Speaker 2 (35:34):
Typical. I mean, like she's carrying the water for the
big plan, right, and then when the big plan falls,
a plan she doesn't believe in, tall apart, she is
the scapegoat because she's supposed to be better than her husband.

Speaker 1 (35:45):
Right, who would do such a thing. In March of
two thousand and eight, John pleads guilty to seven charges
of obtaining cash by deception and a passport offense. Some
of his other charges are dropped in a plea deal.
He sentenced to about six years in prison, and then
Anne's case goes to trial in July of two thousand
and eight. She pleads not guilty to six charges of
deception and nine charges of money laundering because the money

(36:06):
always went to her. It was in my name, you
know what I mean. So she takes the fall for that,
and she gets over six years more than him.

Speaker 2 (36:14):
Yeah, I got to remember that part. Yeah, you are
the bag man, right.

Speaker 1 (36:18):
You're still you're in Dylan Thereah, I know. Her defense
team says John forced her to go along with his scheme,
but it doesn't matter. She's found guilty. Both John and
Ann have since been released from prison and have gotten divorced.
Like all that for what?

Speaker 2 (36:32):
For what?

Speaker 1 (36:32):
Anne has reconciled with her sons and wrote a book
about the scheme called Out of My Depth, which is
one of the sources for the story. Anne donated the
profits from her book to charities, including the Royal National
Lifeboat Institution, which led the search for John when he
first faked his disappearance.

Speaker 2 (36:49):
That's a very decent move. Yeah, that's very smart.

Speaker 1 (36:52):
Yeah. John now lives in the Philippines and he married
a woman who is twenty three years younger than him,
and that is the storyory of the disappearance of John Darwin.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
Wow, that's good.

Speaker 1 (37:04):
Oh my god, can you imagine. No, Evince, I'm not
you can't do that.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
That's like I just hey, come on. And then he
just keep springing.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
It up like it's a bad idea and it's not
gonna work. No, let's just paint some more nomes.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
We gotta do it, we gotta do it. It's gonna
get us so much money. Let's paint somewhere nomes well,
order double nose.

Speaker 1 (37:24):
Grow, some fucking snails. Grow some more snails, some snail tree,
and like, get this, Jesus, Jesus.

Speaker 2 (37:33):
Also, I'm just blown away that that having so much
real estate didn't matter. That was like a minus to them.

Speaker 1 (37:39):
Just the ego there of like I can do this
and then stop doing it whenever I want.

Speaker 2 (37:44):
And pull drag in whoever.

Speaker 1 (37:47):
And like to not consider that your sons are losing
their father in their minds and the devastation that comes
with losing a parent in such a traumatic way. To
not even consider how that's gonna affect them the rest
of their lives.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
Traumatic way, that's a lie. And then the traumatic way.
That's really a way. It's almost it's like a worse
where it's like, oh no, your dad, you didn't tragically
lose your dad, and see he did this to you.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
With your mother. She should have taken all the money
from that book and put it into their therapy account
because that's going to be forever. Wow. Yeah, that was.

Speaker 2 (38:19):
Great, Thank you, nice one.

Speaker 1 (38:20):
Well the documentary is called The Thief His Wife in
a Canoe and it's good nice.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
All right, Well, let's take a let's take a turn
back to Women's History month.

Speaker 1 (38:34):
Let's go back, can we please?

Speaker 2 (38:35):
Let's revisit it just for a second, and then in
doing so also talk about my favorite topic, which is
Victorian England. Hell yeah, I will warn listeners this story
references a very disturbing old British police process which was
essentially the sexual abuse of women and it's very upsetting,

(38:56):
so just listen with caution please. So to day, we're
going to talk about a little known British historical figure who,
despite her very real impact on British society, is not
as famous as she should be. Historian Sarah C. Williams
wrote a book on this person, and she put it
this way, quote, This woman devoted her life to pursuing

(39:16):
justice for women. She played a pivotal role in the
movement to gain equal constitutional rights for women in Britain.
In fact, she was described by her contemporaries as quote
the most distinguished woman of the nineteenth century end quote.
Why is it then that we've largely forgotten her? End quote?

Speaker 1 (39:34):
Yeah? Why is it?

Speaker 2 (39:35):
Well? Given how passionately this woman went after Victorian double
standards that overwhelmingly favored men while fighting for women's access
to education, suffrage, and bodily autonomy, and the fact that
she wasn't afraid to break social etiquette in the process
probably is what made her much more controversial in her

(39:57):
time than obviously she would be now Today, she's known
to some as the quote patron saint of sex workers.
This is a story of nineteenth century British activist Josephine Butler.

Speaker 1 (40:10):
Okay, all right.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
So the main sources used today are the writing and
research of Sarah C. Williams, including her book When Courage
Calls Josephine Butler and the Radical Pursuit of Justice for Women.
That book is heavily cited. Also, an article by historian
Michelle Higgs that was called how poverty drove thousands of
women to sell sex on the streets of Victorian Britain,

(40:34):
and that ran in the British magazine Who Do You
Think You Are, which I got you a subscription to
for your birthday this year coming up. Also an article
by Kimmy Harris in Christianity Today entitled Jesus befriended prostitutes.
So this Victorian era woman did too. The rest of
the sources are in our show notes. Okay, so we're

(40:54):
going to start at the beginning, and that is in
eighteen twenty eight in Northumberland. This is the northern edge
of England, and that's the year that Josephine Gray is born.
Her family isn't exactly the aristocracy, but they are members
of the upper middle class with serious political connections. Josephine's
father's cousin, for example, is a man named Charles Gray,

(41:16):
who will go on to become the Prime Minister in
eighteen thirty. Politically speaking, Josephine's parents are very, very progressive,
with their ideals and convictions being firmly rooted in their
strong Christian faith. Her mother, Hannah, breaks from the norms
of the day and gives her daughter's lessons at homeschools them,
while her father, John is a vocal abolitionist and campaigner

(41:39):
for social reform who openly discusses the topics of politics
with his kids. So in eighteen fifty two, when Josephine
is twenty three, she marries a classics professor at Durham
College named George Butler. George is cutting edge when it
comes to Victorian men. He is ideologically totally on the
same page as Josephine, and he respects her curiosity and intelligence,

(42:04):
which is mad, sadly rare in Victorian England. Curiosity and
intelligence we're ugly back then. Josephine in turn is inspired
by Georgie's work in academia, and on the weekends they
like to study texts and scripture together. And then I
just wrote, just kidding. The weekend hadn't been invented yet.

(42:26):
Think of all those children working in the workhouse the
weekend working. Yeah, no weekend, Okay. So eventually George accepts
a job at his alma mater, Oxford University, and the
couple packs up and relocates, and at first Josephine is
very excited by the idea of being surrounded by academics
and people who value education, but that excitement quickly fades

(42:49):
once they settle in. One issue is that Josephine struggles
with the bad air in Oxford, which it's described as
quote damp, and that triggers respiratory issues that she's been
dealing with since childhood. But the other issue is social
because at the time, all Oxford students are men, and

(43:10):
they've been encouraged to remain single, since having a family
is seen as being in conflict with the life of
an academic. Many Oxford students are in training to be priests,
and much of the faculty are already ordained, so in short,
life at Oxford is dominated by young, single men who,
unlike George, tend to ignore the intellect of women. At

(43:33):
the same time, many of these male students and their
professors are supposedly quote unquote celibate, and yet they regularly
visit sex workers, even though this is not allowed and
theoretically punishable. At Oxford, Josephine often sees women and girls
being brought into town and picked up by well to
do men affiliated with the school. Some of these girls

(43:56):
look very young, like children, and that is actually troubles Josephine.
So of course many sex workers today find empowerment in
their work. But of course, in the nineteenth century, the
polite and publicly prudish Victorian attitude around sex work is
very very negative on all fronts, with the women who

(44:18):
sell sex being seen as pariahs. This is despite many
women turning to sex out of financial desperation, like they've
been widowed, or they are unmarried, women with children or
their flower girls, or domestic workers who are not just
basically making enough money to live and feed themselves. Historian

(44:38):
Michelle Higgs writes quote referred to as the great social evil,
prostitution was an ever present fact of life in Victorian
Britain and was considered by the upper and middle class
to be a threat to society and morality as a whole.
Fallen women was the label applied to those who had
fallen from the ideal of passive womanhood and lost their

(44:59):
purity or innocence by indulging in premarital sex.

Speaker 1 (45:03):
And people who are insulting them in that very sentence.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
With those same fathers and husbands and the families that
are turning their noses up.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
Right, that are utilizing their services.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
Yes, So Josephine Butler does not judge female sex workers
the way others at the time do, Even though she
herself is very, very religious. She seems to be the
rare Christian who genuinely ascribes to the idea that all
people are equal in God's eyes. What really bothers Josephine
is the huge double standard around sex and sex work.

(45:34):
Michelle Higgs again says quote. In Victorian times, the sexual
appetites of men and their use of sex workers was
considered the norm. Women, on the other hand, were expected
to be chaste and passive and to retain their virtue
at all costs. Sex Workers were punished under the law
for soliciting, and yet the men who use their services
were not.

Speaker 1 (45:54):
Yeah, like what the fuck?

Speaker 2 (45:55):
Yeah, this game is rigged and has been since day one.
So at Oxford, Josephine sees how the school turns a
blind eye to the male members of their community paying
for sex, while local police eagerly arrest and jail the
women for providing it. So Josephine starts visiting these women,
not to try to reform them or to chastise them,

(46:17):
but to befriend them. It's around this time that Josephine
learns about a tragic case involving an unnamed teenage girl,
it is not clear if she was a sex worker
or not. We know that that's an issue from telling
stories about women in Victorian times, like in the Five
Halle ribbenholds the Five where she's like, there's no proof
any of these women that were victims of Jack the

(46:38):
Ripper were also sex workers.

Speaker 1 (46:40):
Right, and then also like what does that mean if
like one time you were literally starving to death, then
you know you did something you had to do. Is
it earn you forever into a sex worker?

Speaker 2 (46:49):
Or and also are you somehow justifying this horrendous murder
of this person? Right, it's a well they get what
they get. Is that supposed to be the message?

Speaker 1 (46:58):
Then we don't have to care.

Speaker 2 (47:00):
I mean, this is a lesson we learned year one
where and a lot of this stuff is handed down.
Is like that super prudish, like in my case, very
catholic approach to that, where it's like, well, this is
automatically bad. So here's how you should be judging these people.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
Instead of questioning everything.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
We've been fucking every time. Yeah, so here's the story
of this teenage girl. She was made pregnant by an
Oxford scholar who then abandoned her. She was left to
carry the baby alone, which would be traumatizing and isolating
in and of itself. Then, shortly after she gives birth,
she has no options, she has no future. She kills

(47:37):
the newborn baby. So many Victorians see this girl as
being the antithesis of what a woman quote should be.
But Josephine sees a disempowered, abused, isolated girl being punished
for a hypocritical morality system that allows the man who
got her pregnant to walk away scot free. So when
this girl is eventually released from prison, Josephine and George

(48:01):
do something unthinkable in Victorian society. They take her in
as a domestic servant. Employing this quote. Fallen woman in
their own home could very well mean social death for
most well to do families, but as a rite up
from the Salvation Army explains quote, Josephine remarkably retained a
respectable reputation due to her additional adherence to the virtuous

(48:24):
rules assigned to her sex by Victorian society, marriage, motherhood, morality,
and piety. So they couldn't get her, they couldn't scratch her.
And then she's like, and I'm doing this with this
social power.

Speaker 1 (48:37):
I have this and I'm using it. Yeah, we're good.

Speaker 2 (48:40):
Yeah. So all the while, George has noticed that his
wife is neither happy or healthy in Oxford. So in
eighteen fifty seven he takes a new position as a
school master in Cheltenham College, which is forty miles west
of Oxford in England's beautiful and idyllic Cottswalds region. The
move is an instant improvement for Josephine. The environment is

(49:04):
better for her health, so it starts to improve then. Also,
the Butlers have a lot of space for their growing family.
At this point they have four young children. They have Georgie, Stanley, Charlie,
and then their young daughter Eva. Here in Cheltenham, the
Butlers live in a large four story home that's owned
by George's employer. So it's big enough that it can

(49:27):
house a dormitory of thirty school boys, reception rooms for entertaining,
and a grand staircase with long.

Speaker 1 (49:33):
Banisters to live with all the students.

Speaker 2 (49:35):
Yeah, because that's first of all, it's a college, which
means it's a grammar school. It's one of those deals
I think for the Brits, and it sounds like it's
like a boarding school or whatever.

Speaker 1 (49:46):
I got it.

Speaker 2 (49:46):
Those are all guesses, though it could be wrong if
you went to Cheltenham College in the Victorian England's.

Speaker 1 (49:53):
Writing Little Victorian Ghosts and you went, please.

Speaker 2 (49:57):
Well, we do have something that terrible tragic that happens
in the family and in that house. One night in
August of eighteen sixty three, the baby of the Butler family,
five year old Eva, comes rushing out of her fourth
floor nursery to say good night to her parents, who
are downstairs in the drawing room, but she runs toward
the banister, loses her balance and falls over the banister

(50:20):
four stories to her death. Oh horrible. So, of course,
as you can imagine, the Butlers are consumed by grief
for years. Josephine will later call it quote a long
drought in my soul. The law stunts her so much
that she isn't able to fully reflect on Eva's death
for decades, which is totally normal, but it does, in

(50:44):
a strange way, awaken something inside of her, because all
the love that she poured into her daughter now fuels
her deep desire to improve the lives of little girls
like her daughter and the women they later become. So
when the family relocates to live for Georgia's next job,
Josephine brings this conviction and her deep grief along with her,

(51:06):
and Liverpool opens her eyes. It's the first big city
that Josephine's ever lived in, and she sees that it's
a place where the rich and the poor basically exists
side by side. Josephine will later write quote, I became
possessed with an irresistible urge to go forth and find
some pain keener than my own, to meet with people
more unhappy than myself. Wow, m hm, it was not

(51:28):
difficult to find misery in Liverpool. I had no clear
idea beyond that.

Speaker 1 (51:32):
That's so interesting, Like in your grief, you want to
be surrounded by people who can who can understand it, yep.

Speaker 2 (51:40):
Relate.

Speaker 1 (51:41):
Yeah, you're not trying to be like with butterflies and
fucking sunbeams.

Speaker 2 (51:45):
No, you just that's what you need in a time
like that. It's just someone who you don't even have
to say anything, right, just like yep. So Josephine starts
at the very bottom. She begins visiting the brown Low Workhouse,
which is home to around four thousand of the city's
most impoverished residents. We've talked about Victorian workhouses on the

(52:07):
show before their institutions where the poor were housed as
they are paying for their basically their debts to society
through grueling labor. Josephine begs to be led into the
basement of the Brownlow Workhouse, and that's where the most
destitute women are working. The work they're doing is called
oakum picking, where they pull apart old ropes and separate

(52:29):
the fibers so they can be reused for calking for ships.
It's done for hours on end in exchange for scraps
of food and a very uncomfortable bed for the night.
Josephine will later write quote, I was taken into an immense,
gloomy vault filled with women and girls, more than two
hundred probably at the time. I sat on the floor

(52:51):
among them. They laughed at me and told me my
fingers were of no use for that work, which was true.
But while we laughed, we became friends. Might sound maybe
a bit tone deaf on her part, but Josephine seems
genuinely interested in getting to know these women at the workhouse,
and these women must have felt that sincerity, because she
eventually earns their trust and their friendship, and in doing

(53:13):
so she learns that many of them use sex work
to supplement their otherwise unlivable incomes. Just like the women
she met in Oxford, these ladies here in Liverpool have
suffered disproportionately under a system that seems to forgive men
their every sin and punish women for theirs. So Josephine
relays all of this back to her husband and the

(53:35):
two decide once again to open their home to these women,
in particular the sex workers who are dying of sexually
transmitted diseases. The butlers offer them a safe place to
either rest and recover or spend their final days dying
with dignity. Wow. Yeah, But as the butler's take in
more and more women, it becomes clear that they need

(53:56):
more space. They will eventually open a hostel and lay
a more humane workhouse that they build where steady work
is available in a safe environment. Josephine isn't asking anyone
to change, she's certainly not forcing anyone to change, and
she doesn't see women who do sex work as lost causes.
She's just gently offering them an alternative if they want it.

(54:18):
And while she's doing that, she's also fighting for women's
access to education, which she sees as the key to
women's independence and social mobility. There's a reason they don't
want to fund education. There's a reason they cut education right. So,
in addition to her deep empathy, intelligence, and strong social reputation,
Josephine is also said to be good looking and charming,

(54:41):
which of course is an asset in this male dominated world.
So with equal parts charm and skill, she is eventually
able to convince the men who run Cambridge University to
expand their courses for women.

Speaker 1 (54:55):
What.

Speaker 2 (54:56):
Yeah, Wow, she's in the I mean I imagine that. That
means I could be wrong, but that essentially she's in
those cocktail parties. She's there with her successful professor husband.
They're in the mix. And when she talks, people listen
because she's the real deal, very cool. Love it. So,
after spending years befriending and working with sex workers and

(55:19):
becoming increasingly prominent advocate for women's rights, in eighteen sixty nine,
Josephine Butler learns about the contagious diseases Acts, and these
are a group of laws that were put in place
in eighteen sixty four, initially billed as temporary measures to
curb venereal disease in the British military. At face value,

(55:41):
these laws are geared at protecting public health, but in
of course truth, they're deeply discriminatory, totally misogynist, and horrifyingly invasive.
For starters, they essentially escape women as the reason venereal
disease is spread, and completely ignore the role that men play.

Speaker 1 (56:00):
Where do they get them? Where do you think they
get them?

Speaker 2 (56:03):
I mean, it's just it's truly just like boys rules.

Speaker 1 (56:07):
Yeah, that's so like.

Speaker 2 (56:10):
Yeah. So on top of that, the laws have real
consequences on women's lives because one of the most notorious
and horrifying examples of this are provisions in the Contagious
Diseases Acts that allow plain closed police officers to detain
any woman they might suspect of being a sex worker
and subject them to a brutal, humiliating medical examination. Oh

(56:34):
my god, So this is the part we were warning about,
because she's about to describe how these horrific exams work.
Josephine says, quote the attitude they push us into first
is so disgusting and so painful, and I think by
attitude she's talking about like the literal physical position. That's
my guess. So back into the quote. And then these

(56:56):
monstrous instruments they often use several They seem to tear
the passage open with their hands and examine us, and
then they thrust in instruments. They pull them out and
push them in and turn and twist them about, and
if you cry out, they stifle you with a towel
over your face end quote Jesus Christ. This is if

(57:17):
they suspect that that's what you're doing, which means they
can do it to anyone they want. So if a
woman refuses to cooperate with police, she's put in jail.
And if she endures this traumatic exam and is determined
to be infected, she's jailed in what they call a
law hospital, which is a medical facility that specifically treats
venereal disease. And that woman is only allowed to leave

(57:40):
the law hospital once she's deemed quote clean. After that,
as historian Sarah C. Williams writes, quote, women were simply
sent back onto the streets of Liverpool to be used
again at the convenience of men. Wow.

Speaker 1 (57:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
So Josephine finds the Contagious Diseases Acts unconscionable and she
uses to stay silent about them. She eventually joins forces
with like minded women and helps launch the Ladies National
Association for the Repeal of the Contagious Diseases Acts, which
is often shorthanded as Ladies' National Association or the LNA.

(58:15):
This group quickly gains momentum and they gather more than
one hundred signatures, including one from Florence Nightingale on a
public statement condemning these laws. And so now Josephine and
the LNA take this campaign across Britain and in eighteen
seventy alone, she goes to nearly one hundred meetings and

(58:36):
while she does find support, there is a ton of opposition.
Josephine doesn't mince her words. She condemns these forced exams
as quote steel rape, which is incredibly shocking language for
Victorian Ingram. Absolutely yeah for a woman to use, totally
But the truth is that many people just don't like
how frankly Josephine Butler talks about sex and sex work.

(59:00):
The Guardian reports that one MP will deem her quote
worse than a common prostitute end quote, and some of
her own friends abandon her. Because of this campaigning, Josephine's
opponents stooped to new lows. At one meeting, men hurl
cowshit at her. But by eighteen seventy one, it seems

(59:20):
like all this hard work is paying off. Parliament launches
an official inquiry into the Contagious Diseases Acts, and while
the committee offers suggestions like raising the age of consent
from twelve to fourteen and making the so called medical
exams voluntary, members of Parliament ultimately refuse to do anything

(59:41):
with these recommendations. Even worse, some of the Conservative MPs
defend the current age of consent and, according to writer
Kimmy Harris, quote asked their fellow lawmakers to consider their
past actions and the possible future actions of their sons
before criminalizing having sex with young girls.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
Damn end quote damn.

Speaker 2 (01:00:02):
H Other MPs quote openly defended sexual access to working
class girls as a time honored prerogative of gentlemen. Come on,
that's according to historian Judith Walkowitz. But in the face
of all this, Josephine does not give up. The same year,
she gives a speech saying, quote, it seems to be

(01:00:23):
that we women shall soon have to fight for the
last inch of ground left us. The crudeness of intellect
of some of our young male legislators needs to be
corrected by the wisdom of the thoughtful matrons of England.
End quote. About a decade later, in eighteen eighty, a
new prime Minister takes office. His name is William Gladstone
and he's friends with the Butlers. The Conservative Parliament of

(01:00:46):
the previous years is ushered out. Josephine's fight is no longer.
Following on mostly deaf years and little by little, provisions
in the Contagious Diseases Acts are debated and ended, before
the whole law is formally repeated within a few years.
By this point, the age of consent is also raised

(01:01:06):
to thirteen years old. Josephine has won her biggest battle yet,
but she does not slow down. Instead, she continues campaigning
for women's access to education as well as their right
to vote. She also starts campaigning to end coverture, which
is the law that gives husband's complete control over their wives,
wages and property, as well as any children they share.

Speaker 1 (01:01:27):
She's so ahead of her time. I mean like, we
need her now.

Speaker 2 (01:01:30):
We need her now. So in the mid eighteen eighties,
Josephine is in her late fifties and she joins several
activists Jesus doesn't slow down, no, working to expose the
issue of sexual exploitation of children, which is something that's
disturbed her since the Oxford days. So Josephine and her allies,
including members of the LNA and notably a famous Victorian

(01:01:52):
era investigative reporter named William Stead, and they launch an
investigation that takes them into actual brothels on cover in
search of irrefutable proof of child abuse. Josephine's own son, Georgie,
is one of the men who goes in in disguise
to investigate one of the brothels, and their findings are incendiary.

(01:02:15):
Josephine in the community of activists around her publish articles
and make speeches outlining the sale or abduction of virgins
from destitute families to brothel owners and the subsequent rape
and torture of these girls at the hands of members
of the aristocracy. Josephine will call this the hardest work
she ever does, and the horrors she learns about deeply

(01:02:37):
affect her. She'll even write to a friend about the
rooms in the brothels, describing them like this quote padded
all over walls and floor, so that a girl might
be flung violently about the room or dashed to the
floor without any serious bodily injury, for she is valuable
property to the brothel keeper, so as long as she

(01:02:57):
continues to have any personal traction. And then it just says,
oh exclamation point, what horrors I have seen?

Speaker 1 (01:03:05):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
So these articles come out, the nation is outraged and
Parliament is pushed to act. Before long, the Criminal Law
Amendment Act is passed, which raises the age of consent
from thirteen to sixteen years old. It also explicitly makes
it illegal to quote procure anyone under the age of
eighteen for sex work via kidnapping, drugging, fraud, or intimidation.

(01:03:30):
Jesus Yeah. So for the Victorian era, this is a
huge victory for women's rights. But the public anger around
this issue has an unintended consequence. It's a huge boon
to what they called back then, the purity movement. These
groups are geared at shutting down any activity that they
find a moral which is basically anything sex related, from

(01:03:51):
brothels to birth control. Josephine is skeptical of these groups,
and in eighteen eighty five she writes, quote, beware of
purity societies to accept and endorse any amount of inequality
in the laws, any amount of coercive and degrading treatment
of their fellow human creatures, in the fatuous belief that
you can oblige human beings to be moral by force

(01:04:12):
right end quote. So this is something that sets Josephine
apart from her feminist contemporaries, who often kind of blend
their feminism with their own Victorian attitudes around moral purity.
So it's hard for most of the women at that time,
even though it's just like the intersectionality of it's like, oh, well,
I want feminism for me and white women, right, a

(01:04:34):
lot of that kind of stuff. So when you bring
in that, it's like such a huge part of society
was that kind of morality.

Speaker 1 (01:04:41):
Yeah, you're bringing your own biases, even though you think
it sounds like you're.

Speaker 2 (01:04:46):
You think you're like, I'm frequeal rights, but you're like,
I want my kind exactly. But that's why Josephine Butler
is just so different. Is that that is not the
way she was? So after decades spent lobbying and campaigning
for women's empowerment, becomes a famous advocate in England. She's
approached by publishers who want her to write her autobiography.
She's already written several books by this point, mostly on

(01:05:08):
feminist topics, but these publishers note that her personal memoir
would sell particularly well. Josephine doesn't care. She turns down
these opportunities and says, quote, I would like to make
some money, but not by speaking about my own self. Wow,
oh well issue, I mean, not me me? She's a legend, yeah.

(01:05:32):
But as her public celebrity hits its peak, things at
home are very difficult. Josephine's beloved husband, George, has been
struggling with his health, and in eighteen eighty nine, during
the flu pandemic, he passes away. Until the end, the
Butlers share a wonderful relationship and this loss, of course,
hits Josephine very hard. But even through this grief, Josephine

(01:05:53):
continues to write and speak out on issues that are
important to her, including those affecting women and girls. But
also she starts talking about racism within the British Empire,
which she explicitly condemns. Now that it is just like
when we were just talking about. She is a bit
contradictory because she also supports Britain's expanding imperial footprint. But

(01:06:16):
I do think that's that thing of like, that's how
it's always been, so like we need it, you know,
our way is the best way. Nevertheless, she will write,
quote race prejudice is a poison which will have to
be cast out if the world is ever to be Christianized,
and if Great Britain is to maintain the high and
responsible place among the nations which has been given to

(01:06:38):
her end quote. Okay, so for a woman of that time, Yeah,
she's got a B plus for sure. I mean, you
can't see what you can't see, right, if it's a
thing that no one's talking about. Yeah, So Josephine keeps writing.
It's not her memoir per se, but she does spend
several years putting together what's called Personal Reminiscences of a

(01:07:01):
Great Crusade, and that book is published in eighteen ninety six,
when she's almost seventy years old. It's Josephine's most well
known book, and it tells the story of the LNA's
fight to take down the Contagious Diseases Act. At the
turn of the century, she begins to wind down, giving
fewer speeches and serving on fewer committees. She's winding down

(01:07:21):
in her mid to late seventies. Then in nineteen oh six,
Josephine's health begins to decline. She spends her last days
with family, reading the Bible with her grandchildren, singing hymns,
and getting her affairs in order, before dying peacefully in
her sleep on December thirtieth, nineteen oh six, at the
age of seventy eight. Wow, just kind of perfectly at

(01:07:42):
the end of a year, just like got it. I
did what I could do.

Speaker 1 (01:07:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:47):
While I was here, I did what I could do.

Speaker 1 (01:07:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
So even though Josephine Butler was very, very famous and
influential in her time, she has since faded into obscurity,
and historian Sarah J. Williams thinks her deep faith might
be part of the reason Josephine saw Christianity as the
foundation of her feminism, which, despite all of the barriers
she broke, may put her a little out of step
with later waves of feminism, which often pushed back against

(01:08:13):
organized religion. But others, like historian Elizabeth Longford, think Josephine
might have been largely lost to history because quote she
did not champion the quote. Right. Women writer Kimmy Harris
adds quote the discomfort many of her contemporaries felt over
her work to help sex workers continues on in our
history books. Josephine accepted this fate because she never sought

(01:08:37):
fame for herself right end quote. At the end of
the day, Josephine Butler stands as a great example of
not only a true Christian, but an undeniable girls girl.
She genuinely loved and cared about girls and women, and
in her book Personal Reminiscences of a Great Crusade, she
goes into great detail about the love, respect, and camraderie
that she shared. I gave a little French turn on

(01:08:59):
that I don't know if you like that, comrade, that
she shared with her fellow activists. She writes, quote, as
I look back through our long warfare, their rise before
my mind, not only our united band in untiring conflict
with injustice, but many pleasant adventures, social gatherings, and sweet
friendships taking their rise in a common aim, cemented by

(01:09:23):
fellowship in trial and in hope, and ripening year by year.
She adds to this quote, our long years of labor
and conflict on behalf of this just cause ought not
to be forgotten. And we agree. That's why I just
told you the story of the patron Saint of sex workers,
Missus Josephine Butler.

Speaker 1 (01:09:44):
Wow, boom, that was excellent.

Speaker 2 (01:09:49):
Doing the work.

Speaker 1 (01:09:50):
Yeah, doing the hard work. Keep doing the hard work,
do it, good job.

Speaker 2 (01:09:54):
Thank you?

Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
All right, Well we did it, we did do it.
I did something.

Speaker 2 (01:09:58):
We did it again, and we'll do it again.

Speaker 1 (01:10:01):
We hope so, and we hope you'll be here for
Thank you guys for listening.

Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
Listen, look, stay sexy and don't get murdered.

Speaker 1 (01:10:08):
Goodbye, Elvis, do you want to cookie?

Speaker 2 (01:10:19):
This has been an exactly right production.

Speaker 1 (01:10:21):
Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.

Speaker 2 (01:10:23):
Our managing producers Hannah Kyle Crichton.

Speaker 1 (01:10:25):
Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

Speaker 2 (01:10:28):
This episode was mixed by Leona Scualach.

Speaker 1 (01:10:30):
Our researchers are Maren mcclashan and Ali Elkin.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
Email your hometowns to my Favorite Murder at gmail dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:10:36):
Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at my Favorite
murder Boybye,