9 - Color Me Nine

The theme for this episode is "hiding in plain sight." Karen covers an Exorcist serial killer and Georgia talks about children who murder. Plus stories and favorites from listeners!

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:16):
Murder, murder, murder.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Oh you maney, if it's a miname, you should look
up synonyms for murder.

Speaker 3 (00:25):
Okay, for this podcast. Okay, oh for the titles of
the podcast. No, no, just in general, so we don't
say that word as much. Oh right, yeah, being taken
out violently. Assassinations, assassinations. What are we going to name
this episode? Do you think it's number nine? Yeah? Nine
non lives.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
It's pretty much how this goes.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
SPITBALLI. It doesn't get better after that. Welcome everybody to
my favorite murder. Hi, that's Georgia. Heart's stark, that's caring
kill Gariff. I said it like, I wasn't sure I know.
That's George Georgia, Georgia Georgia, right, Georgia Hards.

Speaker 3 (01:07):
The worst is when someone misspells your name in a
professional setting when they should absolutely spell your name correctly.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
Yes, right, Karen Kilgarriff with a complicated last name.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Uh, that's happened to me many times. Also when also
the worst is when people say your last name and
who you've known for years and you realize that they
always thought it was kill Garris, kill Garraff or kill Garraff.
Where you're like, well, I wish you knew me more.

Speaker 1 (01:31):
I know Hard Stock? What the fuck?

Speaker 3 (01:33):
Hard and stark are two very simple words, and yet
somehow next to each other.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
People freak the fuck out. People freak out.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
Although I do do that thing where when I see
somebody that I know for sure, uh, like, if I
ran into Dustin, I would in my mind, i'd go, hi, Dustin.
And when I would go to say it, what.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
If I'm wrong?

Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yes, Oh, they gotta do that to you.

Speaker 3 (01:55):
Except when I see someone I for sure know, like Dustin,
I'll scream their name in front of them because I'm
so excited that I know them, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
Like you want the credit?

Speaker 3 (02:03):
Yeah, Because normally I'm like, I know who you are. Yeah,
But I don't think I do.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
And I'm the kind of person if I mess it
up and the person's like, don't worry about it, I won't.

Speaker 3 (02:12):
Stop talking about it right or worrying about it right
they go. People call me Ali sometimes and I'm like,
it's okay, it's not okay, it's okay, but it's not.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
Well. I mean, you should at least get one letter
right to first letter totally, is all I ask I'll
that you have that we're killing your name too? Well,
me too. I find it intimidates people. Yeah, we both
have kind of like hardcore badass last name you have
a like Yours is reminiscent of Charles Starkweather, the famous
spree killer. Sure that we're not talking about on this episode,

(02:46):
but that we.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
Okay, we don't.

Speaker 3 (02:47):
I don't talk about up top before we start our
favorite murders before we start this bullshit. Yeah, is someone
knows something the podcast?

Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (02:57):
Are you? I texted you the other days? I know
you were driving.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
No, it was in New York. I was flying.

Speaker 1 (03:01):
Oh nice.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
Yeah, and I was like, you got to listen to
this yep, And I did all of them all. Well,
there were only three, right, there's a new one. Oh
is there really good? I'll listen to my drive home.
So this is I didn't realize I want to start
a listening. But it's like it's in the entire season
of this podcast is about one topic.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Should I read the description?

Speaker 2 (03:21):
Sure, because it's good. It's fucking great.

Speaker 3 (03:23):
On June twelfth, nineteen seventy two, five year old Adrian
McNaughton wandered away from his family at a Lake in
eastern Ontario and disappeared without a trace. And season one,
If Someone Knows Something, hosts David Ridge Riggin, who grew
up in the area, goes back and search for answers.
And I had heard of this case, and I had
never cared because I was like, I got eaten by bears, clearly.

Speaker 2 (03:40):
But no, the more he goes into it, like, that's
what I like about it is you make up a thing.
You hear facts from him and then you go, oh,
it's that guy or it's this. Yeah, and then he
keeps laying down hard facts that he goes out and
looks at himself.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:54):
So there's recordings of him walking in the woods, testing
the echo, talking to people who have never talked to
anybody about it.

Speaker 1 (04:02):
Right, who were they?

Speaker 3 (04:02):
There was one guy who was there that when he
wandered away and police had never spoken to.

Speaker 2 (04:06):
Him about it.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
It's pretty it's a pretty great show. I hope it
stays that way.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
So good and I find sometimes I get a little
bit impatient, and this is sexist of me, But when
the boys get a little wistful and poetic about their
own thoughts and feelings about things.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
Mm hmmm.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
Where I'm just like, uh huh.

Speaker 3 (04:25):
That's the opposite of sexist, and I love it because
that's always sexistance women fucking getting being poetic about shit.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
True, true, But I mean like I just have that
thing where, yeah, I just don't want anyone to be
precious really, But then I find it slightly more sickening
if it's a man, because because I've bought into our
cultural stereotypes and norms. But when this guy does it,
I buy it. I feel like he's being sincere. I
don't think it's self now conscious or self service.

Speaker 3 (04:54):
He seems so sincere that it's great, and it's clear
that he's written out everything he's saying. It's it's more
of a story he's telling, and the writing is good,
and he tells the story in not a boring way
like some of the other true crime podcasts too. The
music is a little dramatic at times, and the soundtracks
the sound is a little dramatic.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
But he's Canadian. But if they have a sincerity, oh totally,
that they don't fear that here in America is almost
not allowed, right, And I liked I like to indulge
in that Canadian man every once.

Speaker 1 (05:24):
In a while. I love this podcast. It's our new
the Simpsons.

Speaker 3 (05:27):
What we talk about at the beginning of every episode,
which of course means the people versus O J Simpsons,
not O J Simpsons.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
As many O J Simpsons as it takes to discuss it.
Although the last episode, I have to say, the one
about the jury, was not so I feel.

Speaker 1 (05:41):
I loved it.

Speaker 2 (05:42):
You did, you didn't like it? I mean I loved
knowing I didn't know any of that.

Speaker 3 (05:46):
I didn't either, But what a fucking bummer to be
stuck in a hotel and you can't speak to anyone
for months.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
Eight months, and then they didn't treat them. Well, No, no,
it was well, it was. It was good in that
it was kind of riveting, but it was privtting in
it almost like in a telenovella way. Yeah, ridiculously dramatic.

Speaker 3 (06:05):
It kind of took us off the track that.

Speaker 1 (06:08):
We were already on.

Speaker 3 (06:09):
With all the episodes, it felt like we were all
were moving forward and this one didn't really feel like
I was moving forward.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
No, but the other thing I like, it felt very different. Yeah,
but I also loved Marsha Clark and her new hair.
She looks hot, right, she looks great in that hair.
And also she was so badass this one. There was
no she didn't do any like rim tears on the rim.
Now her eyes are putting her head in her hands.
She told, she.

Speaker 3 (06:34):
Told what Johnny crockran to go to the playground or
something or what was it?

Speaker 1 (06:38):
But daycare?

Speaker 2 (06:40):
Go to daycare because this is the smoker's lum.

Speaker 3 (06:42):
Yeah, And I was like, Okay, if that really happened,
which it probably didn't, I'm so happy about.

Speaker 2 (06:47):
I feel like it could have. It could have. I
mean by that point, she's so pissed. So many things
like DNA evidence got.

Speaker 1 (06:53):
Completely I mean, I feel like today that wouldn't happen.

Speaker 2 (06:56):
No, no one knew what it was.

Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (06:58):
What I'm loving more than anything is David Swimmer's character,
like realizing his friend is a fucking murderer and him
apologizing to his wife. Yeah that his Yeah, he's defending
a man who murdered her best friend.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, what a bummer. It's terrible.

Speaker 3 (07:15):
No, I mean I wonder if he could quit the trial,
would would he not die of cancer when you're not
out of cancer?

Speaker 1 (07:22):
And would if OJ gotten off? Probably not?

Speaker 2 (07:24):
Oh? Oh you mean during it?

Speaker 1 (07:26):
Sorry? Yes, yeah, I see what.

Speaker 2 (07:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean no, that would have been
bad news exactly.

Speaker 3 (07:31):
So maybe that should have been his like non statement
statement that he's like, I can't support this anymore.

Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeah. Except for that, then you're basically choosing how a
person's life is going to go. Yeah, but defending him,
you're doing the same thing, or you're trying.

Speaker 1 (07:46):
To at least.

Speaker 2 (07:48):
It's so heavy.

Speaker 3 (07:50):
There's a lot of decisions in life that one has
to make, and it's not until they make a dramatic
reenactment TV show twenty years later about it that you
realize the decision she's should have made.

Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yeah, I mean, please live your life like you're going
to be re enacted in thirty years. And do you
want someone of as high quality as Sarah Paulson to
portray you?

Speaker 3 (08:11):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (08:11):
Do you need to live your life like Sarah Paulson
could be? You're you a quiet nobility right a single tear?

Speaker 3 (08:20):
Or do you want John fucking Travolta being the most
flamboyant incredible character since Behind the Candelabra and maybe.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
Even better so?

Speaker 2 (08:30):
But I don't mind it.

Speaker 1 (08:31):
I love it.

Speaker 2 (08:32):
It doesn't bring me out of it. I never think
of John Travolta. I believe him. I to.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
I don't know if Robert shapiroz like that.

Speaker 3 (08:38):
I have to assume he's somewhat like that in personal situations.

Speaker 1 (08:43):
And I love it.

Speaker 2 (08:44):
I'd like to sing a tune of praise for the
very unsung Nathan Lane is.

Speaker 1 (08:50):
F Lee Babs.

Speaker 3 (08:51):
Nathan Lane is f the Base And yeah, Nathan Lane,
who knew he'd be in this?

Speaker 1 (08:55):
I got so excited.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yeah, he's almost unrecognizable, not all because it was wig,
but because I just believe it's that guy.

Speaker 3 (09:03):
I did too, And Flee Bailey is such a noble
character that it had to be played by someone excellent,
and Nathan Lane is a beloved actor perfect for that role.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
Right. Oh, guys, we did not watching it. We've ruined it.

Speaker 3 (09:17):
If you're not watching it, you've ruined yourself. You've ruined
it for yourself.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
There's nothing more we can ruin in your life. How's
it going? Everything else?

Speaker 1 (09:28):
All right?

Speaker 2 (09:28):
Oh? Yeah, everything's good.

Speaker 1 (09:30):
I'm not murdered yet.

Speaker 3 (09:31):
I'm fucking The Facebook group is like near and dear
to my heart at this point.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
The Facebook book group is making me regret leaving Facebook.

Speaker 3 (09:39):
If you want to sign up, a fake account, fake name.
I will not out you, but it is such a
It is such a pleasing place to go when I
have insomnia and just talk to it.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
Like everyone is so fucking cool.

Speaker 3 (09:51):
I comment and I post things, and I read everyone's
post and it's just like really fun. And the discussions
we get into and the comments people make, everyone's nice.
There hasn't been anything racist or mean yet. I haven't
had to kick one person out, which is like shocking
for Facebook. I thought we were really big in the
racist community. Damn it, Well we are. They just keep

(10:13):
it quiet. Oh yeah, they behave appropriately. Yeah, and there's fifth.
This is our ninth episode and there's already fifteen hundred
people in the Facebook group.

Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yeah you guys, thank you.

Speaker 3 (10:22):
It turns out everyone needed a place to talk about murder. Well,
it is fascinating. Yeah, it truly is.

Speaker 2 (10:28):
We Actually somebody at work today started talking about eight
h h. Holmes.

Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
Literally, in my head I had to say, like a teacher,
don't say anything, Karen, let her tell her.

Speaker 1 (10:37):
Story, don't at all.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
I like had to pass my lips together because all
I wanted to do is that, yeah, just jump.

Speaker 3 (10:45):
Don't you want to be like murder is mine. Like,
I'm the one who talks. You don't get to talk
about murder. I talk about murder.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
I think though, that's a that's kind of a good
lesson just in general, because I think I've been that
way about more than murder all my life. I'm gonna
do it all not to be like but it's like,
if someone brings it up themselves, let them tell the story, let.

Speaker 1 (11:05):
Them have it.

Speaker 3 (11:06):
You murder doesn't belong to you, or whatever it is
doesn't belong I'm this I'm not telling you.

Speaker 1 (11:10):
I'm telling myself. This is I totally agree. Well that
wasn't to me, No, that was to me in any conversation.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
Oh mm hmmmmmm not Oh yeah, well did you know that? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (11:19):
You know really so hard.

Speaker 3 (11:20):
And then when you're like, oh well and you like
bring up something that compares to it, you just sound
like an asshole, unless you're you're sincerely wanting to bring
up another murder instead of saying like, well, this is
how much I know about it, which I do all
the time.

Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yes, this podcast could also go into the areas of etiquette,
general etiquette, well I do it in.

Speaker 3 (11:39):
This podcast too. Of not wanting to speak over you,
like I just did no, but it's it's fine with me, okay,
well you and I okay, Well, not wanting to speak
over you, also not wanting to be like, yeah, no,
I know that murder you're about to talk about.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
But it delects me when you do that. I think
it's hilarious.

Speaker 3 (11:55):
There was one you had that I kept trying to
add to and kept telling myself just shut the fuck
up up in my head because it was so obnoxious.

Speaker 2 (12:02):
But it's hard for me. It's hard when you read
a thing by yourself and you're like, there is a
man in Chicago during the World's Fair that built I
basically built a murder hotel, and I'm just finding out now.
And I read it with what I imagine other people
read like books when they go to college. I read
it with the same enthusiasm and kind of like absorption.

(12:24):
So then when somebody else starts talking about it, I
want them to know that I know, like, I want
them to know to know they are cool. I guess yeah,
and are yeah like that. I I want to like
scream and grab each other's shoulders. I want that feeling
with people I don't know them.

Speaker 3 (12:40):
I O you too, and I want them to know
that I'm on the level with them and we can
have this conversation instead of like and also like, you're
going to keep telling me about it and then you're
going to find out that I have a true crime
podcast and you're like, why didn't you say anything that
you knew about this? Especially really the book The Devil
in the White City.

Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yes, that's what we were talking.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
Did you read that? But that's yeah, that's it.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
So I had to wait till she was done, and
then kind of like take a beat. I was really
using it as like an exercise. Yeah, and then someone goes,
I think they're making a movie. I think there was
a book, and then I was like, don't get the
second the words out of the mountain. Then I was like,
that's right, it's called devil.

Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (13:17):
But then if I were the girl who brought it up,
I'd be like, wait, so this whole time, you've been
letting me mansplain something to you and you knew about it.

Speaker 2 (13:24):
But also sometimes mansplaining is just talking. Sometimes we sometimes
people get to talk to us knowing something and we
can accept that.

Speaker 3 (13:32):
Yeah, and we don't have to know, we don't have
to tell them, but I know, yeah, I know everything.

Speaker 2 (13:38):
Yeah, we can be not in the position of victim
or somebody that's being oppressed. You can assume that person
doesn't have the power to oppress you, and you're just
being polite and letting them, letting them be a know
it all is an okay thing to do.

Speaker 1 (13:50):
But then they're never going to get to know.

Speaker 3 (13:51):
You because you did because you didn't tell.

Speaker 2 (13:54):
Them that you know shit. That's very true. But I'm
also this is a work situation where I have to
let my personality out bit by bit because it's a lot.

Speaker 3 (14:05):
You can't scream in someone's face. Yes, I love murder.

Speaker 2 (14:09):
As my mom used to say, you're too much and
she meant it very literally.

Speaker 1 (14:13):
Yeah, a lot.

Speaker 3 (14:14):
And that's why we have a true crime podcast, murder podcast.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
We could Yeah, this podcast could literally go for four hours.

Speaker 1 (14:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:21):
That's why we're friends is because the first time we
actually hung out on our own, we had a five
hour lunch.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
We did just talking and the whole time I kept thinking,
am I the only one that wants.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
To stay right?

Speaker 2 (14:31):
But we it was clear that we were both voluntarily
eating lunch for five.

Speaker 3 (14:36):
Hours, and the conversation flowed it wasn't one sided.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
That's right, I think, I think to you, speaking of
one I love our doubts.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
We are good, we are great. Anxiety is real.

Speaker 3 (14:49):
Speaking of one sided and talking about the thing. Do
you want to do your favorite murderer? I think you're first.
Do you want me to go first?

Speaker 1 (14:56):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (14:57):
So we you told me this week's theme in a
way that I are he knew that you knew what
you were doing.

Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yes, I read I what they call reverse engineered this
week's theme because I had to do this story because
one of our Now I'm afraid, I guess i'll say
his first name and last initial, because one of our
listeners DMed Us, which I adore. He dm us like
so as not too embarrassed, I think. But he was like,

(15:21):
how could you have talked about the Exorcist and not
talked about this and sent me a link and all
this stuff? And I wrote back in all caps, holy shit,
how did I miss this? So that's where mine started.
So then when I talked to Georgia, I was like,
can this week's be like hiding a plane sight or
murdered that? Like they were right there the whole time?
Okay kind of thing because in the Exorcist, one of

(15:46):
the biggest stories, and I swear I looked at over
five websites about my Exorcist first movie set that which
was my thing last week if you didn't hear it,
But Brian b are Listener sent us to stem because
there was a guy in the Exorcist and he was
the guy that played the radiologist Something's wrong with my

(16:10):
mouth or radiologists assistant in the scene we talked about
that I said was so creepy where she was in
that crazy machine getting like this, yeah, Mri. The guy
that plays the assistant in that scene turned out to
be a serial killer.

Speaker 1 (16:25):
No, yes, like a serial killer, serial killer, a.

Speaker 2 (16:28):
Legit six victim, straight up New York in the seventies
serial killer.

Speaker 3 (16:34):
That's just reminded me of something when I gasped, is
that there is a thread on the Facebook group that
every time I say, holy shit, you get to take
a shot, or when I say no, or when I
got like there's certain things, and then when you say
when you sing a word like a thing like yes
it is, you're just taking a shot.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
It's pretty hilarious. It's very lighthearted. It's not in the
mean way at all.

Speaker 2 (16:58):
No, no, no, yeah, please, but now I don't want to
be self conscious about it.

Speaker 1 (17:02):
And doing all the time.

Speaker 2 (17:04):
I love when people are so drunk they fall up
their own couch. All right, So I when Ryan B
sent us this this very tasteful uh DM about a
huge thing I missed, and I'm so bummed.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
Don't beat yourself up.

Speaker 2 (17:20):
I won't. I won't entirely. But talk about like wanting
to be an expert and dropping the ball. Well, I'm
in the.

Speaker 3 (17:26):
First five websites that came up. They didn't mention this.

Speaker 2 (17:29):
They didn't. They didn't, so nobody did would But yeah,
maybe it is like specialized knowledge or something. Maybe I
just have to go to better websites first, or or
you have to.

Speaker 3 (17:40):
I've been googling weird shit, like like the weird, the weird,
not just like so and so murder. I've been googling
like deep down weird shit. Have you gone dark Web?
I wish I could. I don't know how to go
dark Web, but I really I don't want to. I'm
sure Dustin knows. Let's not I'm sure Dustin.

Speaker 1 (17:57):
Knows dark Web. Look at how excited you're like he's
doing the thing. When we talk about something.

Speaker 2 (18:01):
He's like, I know about this, I know about this,
he's doing it that kind of a wait, do you
actually like murder stuff like this? Dustin? I think I'm
more affected by it than you are.

Speaker 3 (18:13):
Oh okay, so you don't get stoked and excited. You
wouldn't be at a party with us and stick around
our conversation.

Speaker 2 (18:23):
You'd walk away probably I have. Yeah. Oh my god,
I never even thought to ask that. What a beautiful
thing that you still come here and record this.

Speaker 1 (18:34):
And gave us a podcast to be good with.

Speaker 2 (18:36):
It. Turns out those headlines, those headphones, he's just blasting
radiohead the whole time. What we're saying radio I love it. Okay.
So here's the here's the research part, and uh, I
hope I do this justice, but I'm not going to
because I basically did only part of my homework. But
essentially this is this is it in a nutshell.

Speaker 1 (18:57):
I'm excited.

Speaker 2 (18:57):
The guy's name was Paul Batesin and he was, in
real life, a thirty eight year old X ray tech
at NYU Med Center where they shot that scene. Oh,
it's called an arteriogram is what she was getting in
that scene, which is like a crazy machine that like
it's like a looks like a not a centrifuge, but
like the thing that tpins you in all those different

(19:18):
directions is very upsetting and weird noises. So I guess
when they probably when they went to like she Loo
Go location scout, he was there. They cast him because
he already worked there and knew how to work the
machine legit already, right. And what I love is the
link that Brian b sent us the picture that comes
up with this article. He looks so creepy. He looks

(19:41):
like any dude in the seventies, like kind of forward,
his hairs going forward, kind of sandy blonde goatee. But
his eyes are like his eyes are drooping, like they're melting.

Speaker 3 (19:51):
So like you were like that, what a great casting
job that they hired the actor, and it's like, nope,
it's he's really this is what he looks like, and
that's why they hired him from this creepy movie.

Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yeah, And I don't know, I don't know if I
mean that's a little woo woo to think that like
his secret life was the reason that scene was so creepy.
I actually don't. Oh, this was before so he went.
These murders happened later in the seventies, so I think
he did that first. Okay, oh no, sorry, the murder
started in nineteen seventy three, so that was so he

(20:21):
was like.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
On camera having a had murdered someone.

Speaker 2 (20:24):
I think, so I should. I would have to look
up the movie came out in seventy three and was
I'm the one that did this.

Speaker 1 (20:31):
Oh, your guys, pretend like you know what you're talking about.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 1 (20:36):
Just own it.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
Yeah, I think he murdered. He must have murdered before directly,
and he was doing it during and then ended up
getting caught after because it was over a period of time.
So essentially what happened is so these people started going
missing or there was like murder scene. So the first
one was a man named Ronald Cabo. He lived in

(20:58):
the West Village and he was stabbed to death on
his sofa and then his apartment was set on fire.
He was twenty nine years old.

Speaker 3 (21:05):
Holy shit, someone take a shot. Holy shit, right because
you're so young. Yeah, and then four days later, so
they just think that's standard murder. In New York City
in nineteen seventy three.

Speaker 2 (21:15):
Four days later, a man named Donald McNiven who was
forty years old, and a guy named John P. W. Beardsley,
aged fifty three, were both found in Donald's apartment on
Verick Street. They both lived in the building, but they
were in Donald's apartment, and again the apartment had been
set on fire. And Beardsley was actually on the social

(21:38):
register in New York and Philadelphia, so he was like
some fancy. He had been a Harvard grad and they
had no idea. They just looked another like another bad
stabbing murder. I think Beardsley was the one stabbed in.
Mcnibben mcnivin was bludgeoned? Did they and it was four
days later? Four days later.

Speaker 1 (22:00):
They connect the two.

Speaker 3 (22:00):
Immediately, I went, how do you not connect to stabbing
and fires?

Speaker 2 (22:05):
Well, maybe they might have like noted it, but he's
in the seventies New York City.

Speaker 3 (22:10):
I think there's several murders a day and they're not
sharing precinct to precinct murders right. Two weeks later, the
body of Robin Barrero was found floating in the Hudson River.
He had been missing for five weeks and he was
still in a leather jacket. He was really decomposed, but
he had a leather jacket on. And then nine days

(22:35):
after that, two gay men.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
Were murdered. They I think they think they were roommates
and their dog, their pet poodles. Yes, And from the
stuff that was in the apartment at that murder is
when they started putting together this is these are all
people who have something to do with the leather community. Okay,
I was going to say that that would make sense. Yeah,
other jackets started and in that first guy, Robert Barrero

(23:03):
or sorry, Ronald Cabo, the picture that they have up
of him is really young and he's wearing a leather jacket.
So I'm sure at the time it was like, oh,
that's just fashion choice whatever. But then person after person
they're probably finding different things. And so by the end
one of the jackets they got the tag and they
found it was belong to a store in the West

(23:24):
Village that was completely an S and M store, SMM
Clothing and Supplies. That's sort of like a leather gay
gay boys, yes, going, and so that's when they start
to realize, oh, this is gay. But once again, it's
just like the Freeway murders. In La right it's a
gay community thing or any distant disenfranchised. When it's prostitutes, totally,

(23:47):
the cops are like, who cares, No one cares, and
we're not going to get pressure from city hall. I mean,
I'm sure they could.

Speaker 3 (23:52):
If it's someone in the community and everyone is who's
being killed is in that community. That you talk to
the rest of the people in that community and they're like,
this guy's creepy and has gone home with all of
these men.

Speaker 1 (24:02):
It's pretty simple. No, it's not.

Speaker 3 (24:04):
I mean, I'm sure it's not that simple, but it
seems like simple. But it's the thing of what people
decide to valuate. Right, So people, if the people in
power don't value your life or you're what you do
in the community, if they actually think you're gross or
god or judge you morally, then they won't try to
help you, or they won't feel any you know, burning

(24:26):
desire to find your killer. Well, they say, I mean,
this is what they say, and I've totally so. They say,
you're living a high risk lifestyle already. Are you living
a high high risk lifestyle? Well, then are you a prostitute?
Are you a drug addict? Are you living you know,
in a gay community where you're around a lot of

(24:47):
strange men a lot. Yeah, that's a high risk lifestyle
and they care less about you. Yeah, because they think
you can living a high risk lifestyle means you kind
of deserved it. It's you brought it on yourself.

Speaker 2 (24:57):
I'm not saying. I'm not saying I think that, but
of course not. But it's an excuse. I'm sure when
cops see you know, it's New York City in the seventies,
they saw probably twenty murders a day. So you're trying
to somehow prioritize these things. Were you can't put your
heart and soul into every single thing that comes across
your debt totally. So, but I'm sure it got very
easy to start marginalizing the deaths of these people or

(25:20):
to not put things, you know, things together. So anyway,
body parts start washing up on the shore of the
Hudson River. So there's like, apparently there's a gay cruising
spot by the Hudson River piers, and that's where different
body parts wrapped in garbage bags start showing up. And
so they putting all this together, they started calling the

(25:44):
whole case in the bag killer wow, And so you
can tell by that, you know, obviously there's not a
lot of sensitivity back then anyway, but that's basically their
attitude about all the stuff that's going on. So then
a drag performer, they said drag performer in this article,

(26:05):
but let's call her a drag queen. I bet she
was a queen. Yeah, And her name was Tony Lee.
And she was strangled in her apartment in the West
Village and the Village Voice wrote a big article about it.
Because she was famous, a lot of people knew her,
and that's when they started to really put together. They
knew for a fact that after hours and after like
the normal bars, she would go to leather bars. And

(26:26):
so that's when they, you know, were like, oh, we
think we really were onto something with this, like leather theory.
And then a man named Addison Verel, who was thirty
six and he was the film critic for Variety magazine.
He was found stabbed and bludgeoned, stabbed and bludgeoned with
a cast iron skillet in his apartment.

Speaker 3 (26:46):
And so where there all of them are in their
own apartments, meaning that this person was allowed to come in.

Speaker 2 (26:51):
Yes, that's right.

Speaker 3 (26:52):
That's what scares me the most, is like, yeah, I
know this person, I see him around my scene.

Speaker 2 (26:57):
Yeah, it's pickup stuff. It's like it's their going to
sex bars, are going to leather bars there, or just
you know the seventies. This is like the Looking for
Mister goodbar total where everybody was like it was post
hippie shit where people are like, yeah, I'm sexually liberated.

Speaker 1 (27:11):
It was pre pre AIDS epidemic.

Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yeah, where it's kind of like, yeah, everybody wants to
have sex, let's do this thing. Yeah, there's a lot
of trust, and especially with they were in this thing
I was reading about is like the love the community.
There's lots of you know, like leather daddies are like
really big muscly men, so they don't think anyone's going
to hurt them. They're they're you know, in charge. It's
all it's very overblown presentational masculinity.

Speaker 3 (27:37):
It's less of a risk than a woman going home
with a man, because a man can defend himself supposedly
against another man.

Speaker 2 (27:43):
Yeah, one exactly. And also they're like that's part of
the play, which I'm sure is the other thing. The
cops were like, you know this is a little something
that got out of hand type of thing. But you're
into anyway, blame blame, blame, right. So this journalist named
our Bell wrote up this big article after Addison Verel,

(28:05):
after the story came out that he was stabbed, because
the whole the whole story about Addison Verrel was whitewashed,
but they didn't talk about him being gay. They were
it was very like a terrible murder, but they made
it sound sound like a passing thing. And Arthur Bell
was like, there's a serious serial killer in our community
and we have to start giving a shit. And if

(28:27):
nobody's going to give a shit about somebody that's famous,
like you know, like this is our chance or whatever.
So he wrote a big, huge article for the Village
Voice about that people needed to start like real police
work needed to start going into this because people were
very afraid. And then he got a phone call. Arthur Bell,
this journalist, he gets a phone call from a man

(28:48):
who tells him I'm the guy that killed Addison Verel
and we were together. I met him at a bar.
We went back to his apartment and while we were like,
after we had sex, I had an epiphany and I
realized this was not a reciprocal relationship. He didn't love me,
he didn't want to be my boyfriend, he didn't want
to get married, and I wasn't getting anything I wanted

(29:13):
and that's why I killed him. And he tells him
a bunch of specifics, including that there was Chrisco all
over the scene of the crime, which was a very
common lubricant that people used for really that that had
not been released to the present anyway. And so Arthur
Bell calls the cops and says, I just got this

(29:34):
phone call. That was crazy. I figured I should tell you,
and he starts telling them these details that no one
else knows besides the cops, and the cops know this
is the real guy.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
Holy crap.

Speaker 2 (29:44):
So he talked to the real killer, which is insane.
So then Arthur gets a call from a guy named
Richard Ryan who said he also knew who the killer
was because he had met him and talked to him.
And this guy had basically told him I think he
said he met him in AA or something and he
basically had been trying to get sober and had admitted

(30:08):
to him that like he had killed Addison Barrel. Wow,
and so but that's the only one he admitted to killing. Yes,
So he Arthur Bell takes that information, goes to the cops,
gives them the name, and that's when they go and
find Paul bates In. And after they arrested bates In,
he was in Rikers and apparently he was bragging to

(30:29):
everybody in there that he not only killed Alison Brel,
but he was killing quote like a bunch of gay
guys just for fun because he was bored. And so
then just for fun because he was bored. Yeah, he's
just trying to impress people due he was cutting people up,

(30:50):
wrapping their parts in bags and dumble them. But they
think he was actually they think he's responsible for way
more murders. But he would only he only he pledged
to the Addison Baryl Murder got twenty years and he
got out in twenty four.

Speaker 1 (31:04):
Twenty years from.

Speaker 2 (31:06):
Just for stabbing, bludgeoning, murder just because.

Speaker 3 (31:09):
You got sad that someone didn't love you, dude, who
oh you mean the murderer?

Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yeah? Oh yeah, yeah, you got bum that Addison didn't
love you.

Speaker 2 (31:16):
Well, but you know this, I mean he's probably psychotic
or you know, yeah, but it's so weird.

Speaker 3 (31:20):
Like, so an un, what's the word I'm looking of.
It's only they got in a fight. He just killed
him and he only gets twenty years. Yeah, that bothers
me so much.

Speaker 2 (31:29):
Well, he's crazy. He clearly can't, you know. I know
What's he going to have another relationship? And just what
is he going to deal with that? I think that
there are people like that out there. Yeah, there's lots
of them.

Speaker 1 (31:39):
I don't so.

Speaker 2 (31:41):
But here's the interesting thing. So William Freakin hears about this,
finds out that an extra in his movie was a
serial killer, goes to Wrikers and starts interviewing him and
then decides. And in the meantime, somebody else I don't
have the author's name, wrote a book called Cruising, which
was about a serial killer in the seventies leather scene

(32:03):
in New York City. And so Friedkin goes and talks
to Paul Bateson and then decides he's going to direct
the movie. No way, And so there's a movie called
Cruising starring Al Pacino, about a cop that's going undercover
in the New York City leather scene to find a
serial killer.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
Did you watch it?

Speaker 2 (32:20):
I have not seen it.

Speaker 1 (32:21):
I want to I want it's easy to find her
if it's one of those I think it is.

Speaker 2 (32:24):
It's well, it's kind of infamous because it's very homophobic.
It's very bad, like it basically says all these people
are deviants without morals and would kill you or kill anybody.
And there's a lot of bad stuff in it. And
when the gay community found out that they were shooting
this movie in New York City, they all it basically

(32:44):
galvanized the the gay rights movement and they would go
down and like protest the shooting the well while they
were filming. Yeah, so they would go down with whistles
and they were they were holding up like mirrors and
make some light go into the scenes or whatever. That's great,
But they ended up shooting it anyway. They got it done,
and when it came out and everyone was like, this

(33:05):
is the worst. Like up until that point, yeah, most
gay men in film were like, Oh, you're the kookie
butler that has no real life or personality. And they
don't actually say you're gay, they just imply it. You're
just a joke, right, You're just a joke. Right now,
you're not just now you're when you're not a joke.

Speaker 3 (33:20):
You're a murderer who deserves and a murder victim who
kind of deserves them.

Speaker 2 (33:24):
You're a victim exactly, and you're everything about your life
lacks all morals and you're just you're basically, Yeah, it's.

Speaker 3 (33:30):
How much more real it that whole story be if
if the person the murderer, it had nothing to do
with the fact that he was gay.

Speaker 2 (33:36):
He's just a fucking psychopathic murderer. Yes, you know, yeah,
but I mean, yeah, it's just the whole thing is
is super awful. There's a great movie called The Celluloid Closet,
and it's a documentary about you know, all like gay
people in Hollywood and and all and the treatment of
them and the and basically the way they've been presented

(33:58):
and seeing it's disgusting, and they talk about cruising.

Speaker 3 (34:01):
It's really good. I think that's it. I had something else,
but sorry, my cats are attacking each other next to you.
That's amazing. That's it.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
So tell me his name again.

Speaker 2 (34:12):
I want to go Paul Bateson is his name.

Speaker 3 (34:14):
I want to go back and see that scene where
there's a fucking real life serial killer.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
I know, it's really good. It's very very creepy scene.
Now I should have watched I just didn't have time
to watch Cruising. But I also know it's incredibly depressive.

Speaker 1 (34:26):
There's no point in you watching that.

Speaker 2 (34:27):
And I also read like reviews of it and apparently
it's not very cohesive and it was initially rated X.
So they had to pull out all these scenes because
there's all this like, you know, kind of intense leather
scene shit, and they wouldn't be MPAA or whatever they're called,
would not let William freakin. So basically when he had

(34:48):
to edit it, it came out way shorter and almost nonsensible.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
Oh my god. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (34:53):
And people always talk about wanting to go back in time,
which I totally fucking do. But the seventies, even the seventies,
the eighties, the nineties were so racist and homophobic and
fucking sexist.

Speaker 1 (35:03):
But you really want to go back.

Speaker 2 (35:05):
I mean, that's the thing. It's just this, It's the
more we talk about stuff like this, it just becomes
this like humanist thing to me, where it's just like
we have people have to I mean it's separate from
mentally ill people who just like have to murder or whatever.
But it's a thing of like we have to look
at each other as human beings. Yeah, it's crazy that,
you know what I mean. We always want to go, oh,

(35:25):
those people they get what they deserve or it's like,
are you fucking crazy? Yeah, but if something happens to you,
you don't deserve it.

Speaker 3 (35:31):
Yeah, someone could say you and I could be in
a category that someone a lot of people out there
would say that about for whatever reason, because we're women,
because we live in Los Angeles, because you know, whatever
the reasons. Yeah, so people could say that about you,
So why would say that about other people?

Speaker 2 (35:46):
Right, It's just it's just lame. It's just I don't know,
I don't know. It's at the end of all these stories.
I'm always like, it's lame. I'm sorry, brought it up.
I brought it up. Is a rough one.

Speaker 1 (36:02):
It's called my Favorite Murder.

Speaker 2 (36:03):
I'm sorry I brought I'm sorry, I brought it up.

Speaker 1 (36:06):
I'm not.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
Yeah, there's something fascinating to the idea that there's just
like a person in a horror movie that's also living,
is walking the walk.

Speaker 3 (36:14):
I wonder if he, in his twisted brain, was like
laughing at the irony of it too.

Speaker 2 (36:19):
I know, I wonder. He's apparently a very bad alcoholic too,
so he cleans he didn't remember. Yoh yeah, I think
he's died since he's got out. In two thousand and four,
he was living in upstate New York. What did he
do after just chill and make breakfast? Did he make
breakfast for himself every day? You know what? He went
down to the community center and he's so crazy love

(36:42):
to help with the spaghetti dinner every month.

Speaker 3 (36:44):
Isn't it crazy that you only have to go door
to door and let your community know if you're a pedophile,
but not if you're a convicted murderer, serial killer like
convicted Cereal was that he wasn't convicted for Aldan though,
So yeah, just a trailer, just a killer. So you
don't have to let them know that unless you fondle children, right,
I want to know if someone next to me, next

(37:06):
ord to me is no, I don't do I know.

Speaker 2 (37:08):
You know, there's pros and cons.

Speaker 1 (37:10):
There is pros and cons.

Speaker 3 (37:11):
It'd be hard to sleep and it'd be better as
if sentencing were a little more just so harsh.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
Harsher for the people who will take you out. It's
not that her harsh isn't the word fitting is the word?

Speaker 1 (37:23):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (37:24):
That's right, Oh Jesus, that's right. Hey, what's your murdered? Hey?

Speaker 1 (37:29):
Okay, So hiding in plain sight?

Speaker 3 (37:30):
When you said that to me, I was like, oh, okay,
I didn't really get it. No, I was excited about
it because I was like, so you mean like serial
killers who have day jobs? Like I didn't really understand it.
So I was like, yeah, that's kind of what I meant. Okay, yeah,
and you said yes. So I was like, what does
that mean to me? Hiding in plain sight? And to
me that meant being And I'm fascinated by this and
how discussing it is. Hiding in plain sight is being

(37:52):
a child who kills someone, because that's plain site.

Speaker 1 (37:56):
Is being a child. And this one is kind of So.

Speaker 3 (37:59):
I have two so similar but very different child murderers
that I've always thought about because they're so fucked up.
And the first one is the murderer is Josh Phillips
and he killed Mattie Clifton.

Speaker 1 (38:14):
So do you know this one?

Speaker 2 (38:15):
No?

Speaker 1 (38:16):
Yeah, this one is a kind of well known one.

Speaker 3 (38:18):
But I just it's interesting because recently some new information
came out about it. So basically in this kid. Josh
Phillips was born in nineteen eighty four. He's from Jacksonville, Florida,
and in July nineteen ninety nine, he was convicted of
murdering his eight year old neighbor, Mattie Clifton. He murdered
her in November ninety eight. He was fourteen years old

(38:39):
and she was nine years old. And what happened was
Maddie disappeared and everyone the old community started looking for
her and couldn't find her. And then the search ended
a week after the disappearance when Josh phillips mother went
to clean up Josh's room and thought his waterbed was leaking.

(38:59):
Which don't get your kid a waterbed be It's not
like king, You're.

Speaker 2 (39:04):
Not like a bachelor.

Speaker 1 (39:05):
Yeah, what is that?

Speaker 2 (39:07):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (39:07):
I wait to give your kid fucking back problems and
send them to jail at the same time, because what's
more comfortable the water better the jail, mattress.

Speaker 1 (39:14):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (39:15):
So it was the mother's fault.

Speaker 3 (39:16):
It's Melissa, you needed to get this together. Upon further examination,
she discovered that it was Maddie's body hidden inside, hidden
like underneath the bed, and she and fucking kudos to her.
Ran outside across the street there was a police and
was like, hey this, you know, like some parents, I
don't know if they would do that immediately or they

(39:38):
would wait until he came.

Speaker 1 (39:39):
Home and talk.

Speaker 3 (39:40):
I'm like, what the fuck and then call the police.
She was like, get the fuck you know, freaked out. Oh,
that is amazing. So Josh was arrested at school that
day and he was held in maximum security.

Speaker 1 (39:50):
So here's what's so fucked up about it.

Speaker 3 (39:53):
As a fourteen year old, he was tried as an
adult and sentenced to life without the possibility of parole.
Like an adult who kill more people in a more
fucked up way and sexually assault them are not given
such a harsh sentence. And so, according to Josh, what
happened was that Maddie came next door to play with him,

(40:13):
and despite the fact that Josh wasn't allowed to have
people over when his parents weren't home, he let her in. Anyways,
the two were playing. According to him, that two were
playing baseball outside. Josh through the ball and it struck
Maddie in the eye, causing her to start bleeding and
she started to scream and Josh freaks out because his

(40:33):
father is abusive and has a temper, and if he
finds out that Maddie's there, the fact that she's screaming
and got hurt at his house, he's going to be
in a shit ton of trouble, including being abused.

Speaker 1 (40:44):
So he takes her to his room.

Speaker 3 (40:47):
I don't know if I should even go into the
details because I know people who are listening to have children,
and I don't want to.

Speaker 2 (40:51):
Well, if you have children and you are listening to
a murder podcast, but you're going to get sensitive, yeah,
then I would go forward on men in thirty secs,
thank you.

Speaker 1 (41:01):
Basically, she died from stabbing.

Speaker 3 (41:06):
And strangulation and clubbing with a baseball bat overkill took
her pants off, but didn't but she wasn't molested, which
is odd. Also, I was reading something on Reddit that
said that she didn't have any He said he dragged
her inside the house, but there wasn't any dirt or
sticks or anything on her body on her clothes, which

(41:26):
would indicate that that had happened.

Speaker 2 (41:28):
So we don't really know for sure.

Speaker 3 (41:30):
And that's a really that's I mean, he tries to
get off easy by saying he hit her in the head.
But then he goes on to over and tells how
he killed her. So it's not like he was If
he was lying about one of them, why wouldn't he
lie about both of them. Yes, so he's he's never
going to be free. She was nude from the waist down,

(41:51):
but it didn't seem and so the murder appears to
have been motivated by his fear of his abusive father.

Speaker 1 (41:58):
It's just so fucked up.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
Do they know that's true or would that be another
thing he could have been making it?

Speaker 3 (42:04):
Yeah, we don't know that either, or even that maybe
maybe the because I watched a couple episodes of you know,
true crime shows where the parents get interviewed, and maybe
that was something that they made up, even to say like,
oh no, the father was abusive and he was scared
of him, like let's give him an out.

Speaker 2 (42:18):
So we don't know if that was true or not.
You think you're right, especially the stabbing part. Yeah, the
stabbing is such a furious and personal thing.

Speaker 3 (42:27):
He also choked her for fifteen minutes. Oh yeah, that
is a lot, and it's it's very hard to choke
someone to death. I think we all if you're into
true crime. You know this, It takes a lot longer
and a lot more force than Yeah, and that's when
you're an adult. That's when you're an adult. But she's
also eight or nine, so she's probably a little more fragile.

Speaker 1 (42:46):
She's all.

Speaker 3 (42:47):
I mean. The thing that fucks me up about this
is that she's this little tomboy girl, and she reminds
me of me as a kid who wanted to hang
out with the older boys and play with them and
be one of the guys. A video, there's a home
video he made that the boy made of this little girl,
Maddie and her sister playing with their new puppy. So

(43:07):
like she trusted this kid next door. She wanted to
come over and was bugging him to play with her.
And as a fourteen.

Speaker 2 (43:13):
Year old, did he have like a history of anything,
not mental stuff or no mental stuff?

Speaker 3 (43:22):
The dad died in a car accident eventually. Okay, So
in twenty twelve, recently the Supreme Court ruled that automatic
life without parole sentences for juveniles is unconstitutional, and that
ruling entitles Phillips to a re sentencing hearing. Also, he's
super hot, now whatever, that's just beside the point, but.

Speaker 2 (43:43):
Let's just put it out there. Let's just let everyone
know that. Let's just get those people on tender aware.

Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:49):
So, and there's not a ton of conversation about this murder,
like on Ridit or anything like that.

Speaker 1 (43:54):
So I just thought it was interesting.

Speaker 2 (43:55):
I agree that life without parole for a fourteen year
old is insane, even though I get it. He's I
mean that stabbing a little girl to death and strangling
something happened to that boy. Yeah, something very bad happened
that boy, whether it's a psychotic break, whether it was
something to he was terribly abused.

Speaker 3 (44:13):
It was like there was an interesting conversation and read
it and like the one little bit I was able
to find where this commenter was saying. You know, when
I was a kid, my dad was abusive, and all
you wanted to do was not get in trouble. That
you didn't think about what would happen in the future
if you got caught hiding whatever it was that you
were in trouble. Getting in trouble meant the whole family
would be terrorized. So you do whatever you can to

(44:37):
not get in trouble that moment, and it kind of
made sense in a way that was like, she's not
dying from this way, She's not dying. I need to
kill her at this point and get it over with
because I'm going to get in trouble for having had
someone over which is you know, maybe he was a
little maybe he was developmentally delayed, but fourteen year old.
Fourteen seems too old to think that killing someone was

(44:59):
an okay solution.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
Yeah for sure. Also, I feel like hitting someone in
the head and being afraid and this is this is
just theory. Obviously he would just hit her in the
head a bunch more times.

Speaker 3 (45:11):
Right, why not just smack her in the head with
a base all that is.

Speaker 2 (45:15):
The other part just gets so violent up close, crazy bloody,
I mean like almost like wanting to see what happened,
what happens, you know, Like, and the pants down thing
is not good.

Speaker 3 (45:26):
The pants down thing is a very a very It's
sexual no matter what.

Speaker 1 (45:32):
Yeah, so even if you didn't touch her, it's sexual.

Speaker 3 (45:34):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
And stabbing is sexual in that, you know, in the
psycho sexual way. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:40):
Totally strangling too, I mean.

Speaker 3 (45:43):
Yeah, oh man, I mean and when you strangle someone,
you for the most part have to look at them
in the face. Yeah, if you can fucking do that,
you got some major issues beyond you being scared. You're
gonna get that belt whipping.

Speaker 1 (45:57):
From your dad.

Speaker 2 (45:58):
Yeah. And also, I mean people always say this, but
I'll just say it anyway. There's you can hear the
chorus of people who were abused by terrible parents who
are like, I would never kill anybody, So it's not
a plus B. Like I think that that psychiatric element
is absolutely has to be there. Yeah, because here's the
other thing too. You're right, a mother who would immediately

(46:20):
run across the street, like obviously it's insane finding a
dead body and your son's bed. But she knew, she
knew he did it, Like it wasn't I don't know.
She didn't go Let's let the cops tell us what happened.
You have to go get my son.

Speaker 3 (46:35):
Her first her first thought was for the girl, the
little girl and her and her family who was waiting
to find where she was, and not for her kid
or for the for the dad, who you know, because
if you find the body, someone in the house did it,
you might not know it's your son. Her first thought
was that I found this the girl. Yeah, she's clearly

(46:56):
the victim. Not not my son.

Speaker 2 (46:58):
That's amazing.

Speaker 3 (46:59):
Yeah, that's that's fucked up. There's another one too, but
maybe I don't need to get into it.

Speaker 2 (47:04):
Do it, do it?

Speaker 3 (47:05):
It's just Eric Smith. This the red like the little oh,
the redhead kid.

Speaker 2 (47:11):
He killed his parents.

Speaker 3 (47:12):
No, okay, So Eric Smith born nineteen eighty. He murdered
four year old Derek Roby on August second, nineteen ninety three.
This is in Steuben County, New York. So Eric hat Eric,
unlike Josh, had been diagnosed by a defense uh psychiatrist
with intermittent explosive disorder. It's a mental disorder causing individuals

(47:35):
to act up violently and unpredictably.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
He was a loner.

Speaker 3 (47:39):
He was tormented by bullies his you know, he he
was like a nerdy redhead. You look at him as
a kid in court, especially these videos of him in court,
and he's just this. You can tell he's troubled just
by looking at him. You can tell he'd been bullied.
You can tell he didn't like himself. And he basically
said he took his anger out on this little kid,

(48:03):
this sweet little Derek Roby, who was riding his bike
to summer camp and see, Eric was riding his bike
to summer camp and four year old Derek was walking
alone to the same camp. They saw each other, he
learned him into the nearby woods, and then Smith like
overkilled the shit.

Speaker 1 (48:20):
Out of him.

Speaker 3 (48:22):
Like so this was on purpose, Like you know, it's
it's such a weird thing. It's like, well, these two
different things where this kid said that he had to
do it because he hit her in the head and
his dad was going to find out. This kid just
straight up wanted to murder someone. Yeah, and I remember
hearing this thing about one of the one of the
many fucking true crime chowes. I watched that he that
Eric took a banana out of his lunch and smashed

(48:44):
it into the little kid's face. And later that night
the aunt or someone was babysitting him and got a
banana out and the kid freaked out, and I think
that's how they figured out who it was. The kid
freaked out over the banana. So basically, uh he Smith
said that he'd been bullied by older children in high
school and that is by his tosso, by his father

(49:05):
and sister, and he confessed that he took his rage
out on Roby but was worried that Roby would tell,
so he killed him.

Speaker 1 (49:14):
It's very odd. It's so old.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
Was he when he did it? So this kid was
Eric was? I think he was fourteen as well. Oh wow,
I just remember looking at pictures of him. M Oh,
you know when I was working those two boys that
killed their dad. Yeah, his picture came up all the time. Yeah,
and he looks so young. He looks he's in a blazer.

(49:40):
He doesn't look thirteen. He looks like he could be.
He looks like he's not eleven or twelve.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
Yeah, nine, And.

Speaker 2 (49:45):
He's got those ears that stick out, big old ears.

Speaker 3 (49:47):
And if you look at him now too, because there's
some interviews with there's some jailhouse interviews with him now
or he like, he's just so apologetic to the family.
He says, I wish I could take the kid's place,
Like he's very, very remorseful about it. But even now,
he looks he looks like remember the redheaded guy in
the Burbs who lived who was one of the haunted

(50:07):
that lived in the house.

Speaker 1 (50:08):
He looks like him now. It's just like he doesn't
look which is such. I shouldn't judge someone by the
way they look, but you know.

Speaker 2 (50:15):
Well, I mean that's why people get bullied if you
look different.

Speaker 3 (50:17):
Yeah, definitely, it's well, so he's been apologizing through in prison.
This other kid, Josh, he has since gone on too
at his he got a degree in being a paralegal
and he's been working as a paralegal helping other inmates
with their appeals. So both of these people have like
have gone on to try to make amends for their

(50:41):
their murder. Do they deserve to be in prison forever?
And I'm not I'm not asking like they don't. I
fucking don't know.

Speaker 2 (50:47):
Right, it really brings well, it makes you come way
off the like let them all fry, right, I like
to feel that way just because it's very comfortable and
like a But it's the.

Speaker 1 (50:57):
Same reason that I don't.

Speaker 3 (50:58):
I still can't give anyone a day definite answer about
the death penalty, right, I just couldn't give anyone an
answer because I don't fucking know. There's so many different circumstances.

Speaker 2 (51:09):
I know, it's true, it's it's so it's much more
complex than one thing or there, and it's case by case,
but I mean, yeah, it's and it's difficult because I
understand people saying like it's wrong to kill and revenge
is wrong, and like one wrong doesn't make a right,
just don't make it right. I agree with all of it.

Speaker 3 (51:25):
But then you hear a story about a dad murdering
his child's molester, and you're like, yeah, good, one hundred percent. Yeah,
Or like you hear about repeat molesters, Yeah, that kind
of thing, those priests that have molested six hundred children, Yeah,
kill them immediately.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
I mean I immediately feel that way. And I'm just like, well,
good are you You clearly don't this is what you're
going to do, and what life you have ruined? Six
hundred lives if not more.

Speaker 3 (51:52):
But then you hear, well, he was molested when he
was a kid constantly.

Speaker 2 (51:57):
And maybe if his molester had just been taken out bullets.

Speaker 1 (52:01):
I mean, it's so common.

Speaker 3 (52:02):
This is why we have this podcast, is because if
we could talk about this for hours and hours, which
is what we're going to do.

Speaker 2 (52:07):
Yeah, I mean, it's it's so rough. Also that kid,
And I mean, I I've never had explosive anger, but
I understand like getting in especially if you do drugs,
Like when I used to be on speed, I took
diet pills for a long time, which yes, I lost
thirty pounds in one month, but.

Speaker 1 (52:27):
Thirty pounds in one month.

Speaker 2 (52:29):
Yes, I had friends who are like, are you okay? Yeah,
I'm talking and smoking right, not breathing. But you do
have that thing where there's the weirdest feeling that's so
separate when you have like a rage explosion or like
a like when you get onto that track and you
can't get back off. It's like a panic when you
have a panic attack exactly, It's like your brain is

(52:50):
having a reaction separate from you. And to be a
child trapped inside that, I mean.

Speaker 3 (52:56):
I under I can't help, but understand taking it out
on someone else because I was bullied as a kid.
But I was a little and my brother and sister
were you know, fucked with me, not abusive, but as
older siblings will do. And I'm the youngest, So I
can't take it out on anyone else. So I just
hurt animals. No, I'm just kidding with nothing freaking hilarious.

Speaker 1 (53:14):
So I just hurt my cat. No, my god, but.

Speaker 2 (53:17):
Yeah, you, but my mom would be a bitch.

Speaker 1 (53:21):
I would get so fucking pissed.

Speaker 3 (53:22):
It's that thing of punching a wall because there's nothing
else to punch. Yeah, and this kid clearly wasn't taught
self control. If he was abused by his dad and
a sister, he was taught that violence against someone smaller
than you is okay.

Speaker 2 (53:35):
Yes, that's exactly right. That's almost like oh larger almost
like he I know, he didn't do this in any
way consciously. It's symbolic. Yeah, it's him going, here's what
we do, right, here's what we do, and there's what
happens to me. Yeah, it's going to go this far.
The idea of a father and sister being bullying and
abusive within a family, it's disgusting to me, Like that's

(53:59):
what it's terrible, sad life that kid had.

Speaker 3 (54:01):
I completely see it, you know, I think about like
the things we I was bullied, but I said so
many shitty things to kids, like the nerdy kids when
I was younger, and I think about them all the
time and what their home lives were like, and that
I contributed to their fucking their awful.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
Lives, and it disgusted me.

Speaker 2 (54:19):
I mean that's the thing too. I feel like when
your kids you do these things because you don't have uh,
you you don't have the a mature sense of where
you belong the world, what other people's lives are. Like.
I remember being like honestly being like in fifth grade
and asking my teacher, who was a friend of our
family and she would eat dinner our house sometime, and

(54:41):
I asked her one night, like, there's a girl in
my class, and I was like, why is Sarah's face
always dirty? And she was like, because she doesn't have
anybody to wash it for her, And it blew my mind.
I was like, I assumed every single other kid had
the exact same life.

Speaker 3 (54:58):
Totally yeah, And I mean like for my existence, Like
I was loudly making fun of other kids because I
was happy that I wasn't the kid at that moment
getting made fun of exactly right, because I wanted to
show everyone that I was part of the group too,
that I could make fun of this person too, because
I was getting made fun of.

Speaker 1 (55:14):
And it's one.

Speaker 2 (55:16):
Hundred percent I've talked about it, I do it to
this day. Of like, the quickest way to bond with
someone is to figure out who you both hate, oh
for sure, And that's just human nature. That's that thing
of like, yeah, you deflect. I'm not the bad one.
Isn't that person the bad one? Yeah, it's how we
do it, and it takes a lot of strength and
a lot of like, it's very difficult to have, like

(55:39):
with human interaction, if you've gotten deuilt a shitty hand
every time, to still be like I'm going to handle
this great, to be kind when you're twelve, I mean,
like you, we're thirty one, and it's hard enough to
I wish I was thirty one, girl. Yeah, you are
caring thirty one. Everyone on this podcast.

Speaker 1 (56:04):
Drink shots. What was I going to say? I don't remember.

Speaker 3 (56:09):
Let's let's not have kids over I mean terrible people.
That's the other thing is like that I remember saying.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
So the last time I was home, I said something
bitchy to my niece, who I adore and we get
along great, but she was just doing something kind of
jerky and then I was like, just go do it
or whatever I said, and then she's like all right,
and instead of like having a sensitive reaction, she's learned
because she also is the daughter of an you know her,
she's an only child. My mother, my sister, is a

(56:35):
single mother, and so she's kind of learned to roll
with punches for a nine year old so much better
where I was like, oh man, because I felt guilty
the second it came out of my mouth. And I
was like, if I had like a favorite aunt that
like bitched at me like snag would have hurt my feelings.
But she was kind of like whatever, dude, and want
to weigh She's like.

Speaker 3 (56:54):
More of an adult because she's a single her mother's
single mother, and she's a kid, and she not siblings,
so she acts your sister probably treats her more like
an adult than a kid.

Speaker 2 (57:04):
I think she's at and she's very close to her
two cousins, who are like two and four years older
than her. She's like she's kind of like toughened up
a little bit. But it's That's the other thing is
when you everybody gets picked on in some way, you
learn that picking on people is a good way to
up your own status, and there's no other When you're
young like that, there aren't options unless you go to

(57:27):
some amazing progressive school that teaches you about stuff like that,
which it doesn't work. It's like, no, somebody's gonna get
thrown in that garbage can and the way to make
it not you is to make sure.

Speaker 3 (57:39):
Then you go home at night and your parents are
abusive too, like the it. Vince always gets sad when
he sees kids because he remembers how you just feel
like that this is going to go on forever.

Speaker 1 (57:54):
Yeah, you're never gonna have control over your life.

Speaker 3 (57:56):
You're never gonna, you know, be able to make decisions
on your own. It feels fucking infinite.

Speaker 2 (58:01):
Yeah, for sure. Well, and like school politics also, it
feels like, oh, this is my world. This bully is
always going to be in my life. This girl is
always going to be prettier than metal. It's all that
kind of stuff. But you, it's just the way like
a teen brain works.

Speaker 3 (58:18):
It turns out we ended up being the coolest ones
out there.

Speaker 1 (58:21):
Who'd have thunk.

Speaker 2 (58:22):
Here's how you be the coolest ones? Yeah, for a
really long time. You're so not the coolst You're severely
not the coolest one.

Speaker 3 (58:29):
The least coolest one usually becomes either a murderer or
the coolest one, thick one.

Speaker 1 (58:34):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (58:35):
It's your choice. It is a choice.

Speaker 1 (58:37):
It is a choice.

Speaker 2 (58:37):
It's a path.

Speaker 3 (58:38):
That's That's what this whole thing comes back around to.
Is it is a choice, and these two boys choose
to kill someone, and.

Speaker 2 (58:44):
In the moment, I know, here's this like I'm just
going to play Devil's advocate psychiatrist. That's like, if you
have explosive disorder, it is you do not have a choice. Yeah,
it's like that thing where when I get nervous and
my mouth starts talking, then I'm like, oh no, I'm talking.

Speaker 1 (58:58):
Not a choice?

Speaker 2 (58:58):
What am I saying?

Speaker 3 (59:00):
And we have so many outlets now psychiatry and psychology
and intense therapy to help control it. But would you
feel comfortable if that person was out in society now?

Speaker 1 (59:14):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (59:15):
Probably not like out in my town.

Speaker 1 (59:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:18):
It's that thing where, like you know, as a parent,
you just be so paranoid, totally totally. All right, Well
that's my favorite murder. Can I pick next week's favorite
murder topic? I mean, yeah, message received, Georgia, that.

Speaker 3 (59:32):
Was all your fault, Karen, that I got so dark
and deep. So let's do you want to read a
hometown murder?

Speaker 2 (59:38):
I pick next week?

Speaker 1 (59:39):
So can I?

Speaker 3 (59:39):
It's like butterflies kit something from Nice Butterfly Murders.

Speaker 2 (59:45):
Oh, the butterfly Murders of the Philippines. Yes, we absolutely
can do that one. Do you want to read us?
Let's see why don't we do this? So you want
to read a favorite hometown murder that we got emailed?

Speaker 3 (59:55):
You can email us at my Favorite Murder at Gmail
your hometown murder. We'll read one every fucking week, even
though we get so many it's incredible.

Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
I love you guys.

Speaker 3 (01:00:04):
And then maybe let's do a quick separate episode of
other people's favorite on the Facebook page, I said, what's
your hidden in plain sight murder?

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:00:12):
And I can read a few of those, and maybe
we can read one or two hometown murders. So we'll
have a mini episode that'll come out maybe a couple
days after the regular one comes out.

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
Great? Is that cool?

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
I love it?

Speaker 3 (01:00:23):
Okay, So why don't you read me a hometown murder?

Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
Please?

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
Cool?

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
This is also another Now I'm getting obsessed with follow up. Oh,
I'm getting obsessed with like thoroughness and research. But I
really do genuinely love it. So this is a bit
of a follow up, but there's much more to it. Okay,
and it's from Lily k. We'll say yes, uh hi,
Karen and Georgia can't believe how much. You sound like
my friend Julie and I will wear together and really

(01:00:48):
get going. I've been obsessed with true crime for so
long that I became a forensic psychologist. You are a
fucking bad ass, Lily. Why not do what you love.
There's nothing else in the entire world I'd rather do,
And yes, you can interned for me sometimes. Way to go.
I make my husband watch all the true crime shows,

(01:01:08):
and now when he gets sick, he's convinced I'm poisoned
like those deadly women of centuries past it anyway, I
just found your podcast and your call for hometown Crime.
Then I saw you did mine in your second episode, Bummer,
but I decided not to listen to it yet and
pretend you didn't do it so I can tell you
about it. Love it, Paul Bernardo was mine, and like

(01:01:31):
I mentioned, it affected me so much that I became
a forensic psychologist. When I was in high school in Toronto, Toronto,
the Scarborough suburb of Toronto, rapes were going on. It
was terrifying. The bus company started letting women out at
any point along the route at night, not just at stop,
so we wouldn't have to walk far from the stop.

(01:01:52):
To humehow our regular gym classes were canceled and we
get a specialist in to teach us self defense.

Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
Holy shit.

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
So there was a guy at my high school who
looked more like the sketch of the Scarborough rapist than
Paul ever did. And he said he was thinking of
changing his hair when the sketch came out, but he
was afraid that that would actually make him look more
Yeah what and then she put in puncies. It wasn't him,
by the way. Okay, So, just as the rapes started
slowing down, we heard about two girls go missing on

(01:02:21):
the other side of Toronto. Did you know Leslie Mahaffy
was actually locked out of her house the night that
she met Paul Bernardo. Horrible. She was a rebellious teen
and her mom picked that night to do some tough
love on her when she broke curfew and locked her
out and her mom locked her up.

Speaker 3 (01:02:39):
Can I just said, my mom, tough love is like
was a thing, and my mom fucking did it and
it was the worst in the eighties. Yeah, kids, parents,
please don't do tough love on your kids. It doesn't work. Yeah,
that's right. Oh, I guess sorry, go on, Oh that's okay,
it's oh my god, So she locked her kid.

Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
Mother locked her out of the house. How much does
that woman hate herself?

Speaker 3 (01:02:59):
Now?

Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
Oh I can? I mean that is if she's even
still alive. That is talk about the worst thing in
the world. Totally a child dying, and then you, oh
my god, that's niner. And then Kristin French was also
portrayed as the good girl, and Leslie as the more
rebellious and Tammy, Carla's sister, was basically a forgotten I

(01:03:21):
know every single detail about this case, but in case
you don't want to hear it, I'll get to some
good anecdotes. This was going on throughout my entire high
school life, the rapes, the murders. Then my last year
of high school they found out it was Paul and Carla,
So of course I went to the trial. I actually
had this college boyfriend I wasn't that into and I
made him go with me. Poor guy. He was really

(01:03:42):
upset about being there, but I loved it. Paul, Oh
it's says Paul was so incredibly in court. I wonder
what she meant when they took his handcuffs off. He
wouldn't just turn his wrists to have them removed. He
would turn his entire body. It was as if he
was trying to look every person in the gallery, and
it was creepy. And then in college, a girl in

(01:04:05):
my dorm started dating a guy named Sam who looked
by Paul. So whenever I had a couple of drinks
in me, I'd call them Paul.

Speaker 3 (01:04:12):
I love this chick.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
I also wrote all my psych papers in college on
Paul Bernardo or Carla abnormal psych class, personality class. I
wanted to know what made them tick. And then but
it's super long.

Speaker 3 (01:04:27):
Yeah, what a terrifying fucking thing to go through high school.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
I mean it took up their whole world. I mean
that was crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:04:35):
And then to find out that a woman is involved.
I don't know why.

Speaker 3 (01:04:37):
I like because you would see a couple and you'd
think I'm safe.

Speaker 1 (01:04:41):
It's the old talk about that. Yeah, it's too was it?

Speaker 2 (01:04:45):
I think so? But that's the reason I love that
she gave all those details, because that was the one
where I wasn't. I was a little fuzzy on my details.

Speaker 3 (01:04:51):
And that shit you wouldn't know about. It's the same
thing about watching the Simpsons is that it's information that
you know, you you watched the whole trial, but you
could not have known what it was like to be
on the jury or what it was like in Marcia
Clark's office when her boss was pissed about the glove
that they it was their idea to have him try
the glove on.

Speaker 2 (01:05:09):
Yeah. Oh, and also that like being I love that
she loved it so much she went to trial. Yeah,
that's amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:05:16):
I can't tell you how Like I've been asking people
their hometown murders for years when I'm at gut parties
and drinking too much and calling people by murderers names,
and this is like just feeding This is feeding me
on a level that I can't even handle.

Speaker 2 (01:05:30):
You can really put away that voice in your heads
that says you're weird in any way.

Speaker 3 (01:05:33):
It's just simply not weird. Because we have an inbox
full of hometown murders. I hope we haven't gotten any, like, yeah,
it's incredible. Any what, Sorry, I don't know, Like I wouldn't,
like you said, someone asked us to be on their
podcast in our Gmail, and I wouldn't see it because
it's just buried underneath that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
Is there's at least one person, but I think there
might be more than.

Speaker 3 (01:05:53):
We need to give them a different email address. Yeah,
I love it. I did, so I wrote a thing
on Facebook real quick about and I said that it's
like a cocktail trivia.

Speaker 1 (01:06:06):
Like information that I love.

Speaker 3 (01:06:07):
So mine was that that everyone knows that all serial
killers don't have three names. Has everyone thinks they do,
like John Wayne Gacy. It's that they use their middle
names so that normal people named John Gacy don't. People
don't think that they're the you know, they don't look
them up in the fucking Yellow Pages and say John
Gacy is that you.

Speaker 1 (01:06:25):
And know it's god John killed them at their house
Wayne Gacy?

Speaker 2 (01:06:27):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:06:28):
So I asked people there like cocktail trivia murder facts
and this person can I read a couple please? That
DNA was the DNA evidence was first used to convict
a killer in England in the eighties. The killer was
named Colin Pitchfork and he had killed two girls. Which
is amazing that serial killers are apparently obsessive masturbators since
they can't attain normal sexual relationships.

Speaker 1 (01:06:49):
Most women who kill.

Speaker 3 (01:06:50):
When using a weapon, you will use a knife because
it's more personal.

Speaker 2 (01:06:54):
Ye, many killers stored out. I was keeping Tom's. Let's see,
it's really creepy because peeping Tom's culturally have always been
treated very lightly, like oh this cook up in the tree. Yeah, oh,
he likes he wants to look at cute girls. You know,
it's like the you know, animal House. I've got my
binoculars and I'm looking into this way. That's murdery. You're

(01:07:17):
you're on your path to murder.

Speaker 1 (01:07:18):
Totally. One more.

Speaker 3 (01:07:20):
Eileen Werena's last words were, yes, I would just like
to say I'm sailing with the rock and I'll be
back like Independence Day with Jesus June sixth, like the
movie Big Mothership, and I'll be back.

Speaker 1 (01:07:31):
I'll be back.

Speaker 3 (01:07:33):
She was fucking crazy, and someone someone replied and said,
which is weird because that was also my wedding boughs.

Speaker 1 (01:07:40):
Why I love.

Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
Best? Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (01:07:45):
Okay, so everyone's sailing with the rock.

Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
Did she mean the wrestler?

Speaker 1 (01:07:51):
I think so?

Speaker 3 (01:07:52):
No, the movie The Rock. Oh I think I didn't
know about that. Eleen Aileen Honey girls her girl Angel.
You can so we're at my favor Murder on Twitter
and you can email us at my Favorite Murder at
gmail and please well go to our group on Facebook

(01:08:12):
my favorite murder. It's private, so you can just like
talk all the shit you want, but also those things
people are making. Did you see the girl on Twitter
that was making fake books? No know, I'll tell you,
okay real quick, someone's making Someone on the Facebook group
made a murder bingo. I saw that, yeah, and someone
else made me this made this beautiful a quote that

(01:08:35):
I said, I think last week it said, uh, I
don't want I don't want any survivors. And it's like,
in the background of beautiful flowers and stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:08:45):
I saw that. I want them to keep doing that,
And of course it's like.

Speaker 2 (01:08:49):
An inspirational quote, but it's you saying I don't want
to see any survivor. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:08:52):
And then of course the.

Speaker 3 (01:08:56):
Drinking game, which is like everyone just keeps adding like
when they say this, when they do that, when they
say this.

Speaker 2 (01:09:01):
It's like the best I mean, that feeds right into
my humongous, deep ego need no totally.

Speaker 1 (01:09:07):
People are listening to us.

Speaker 2 (01:09:08):
It's a it's a girl on Twitter named thin Izzy,
and she's doing these things. She keeps writing read my
new book and says, don't burp the Robert Durst story.
It's just stuff we've said about people, and she's making
it into a book. I love her, or maybe I
think it's things we've said. He definitely killed like eight people.
I was a teenage Robert Durst and it's like Robert

(01:09:28):
Durst when he was like in his early twenties, and
it just they look like book covers.

Speaker 1 (01:09:32):
What's a gem?

Speaker 2 (01:09:33):
Well done? Thin Izzy? Oh I love this one staircase
part two.

Speaker 1 (01:09:36):
Oh my god, it's just an owl.

Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
And then it's he was gay in the South is
one quote and a microscopic owl feathers on the other side.

Speaker 3 (01:09:43):
Oh my god, it's like a beautiful photo of an owl. Yeah,
that's incredible. People are the best. It's very exciting.

Speaker 1 (01:09:48):
I think this is this is what we're doing here,
is just trying.

Speaker 3 (01:09:50):
To make everyone know that there are there are a
lot of murders, but there are a lot more funny people.

Speaker 2 (01:09:57):
And here's the other thing. I remember when everybody started
going act she crazy about I know I've already talked
about this on this podcast, but Sex and the City
in the whenever. It was late nineties, early two thousands,
and I was like, has the world gone insane? Who
gives one fuck about that? Stupid show. But it was like,
I'm a Miranda, I'm going to drink a guy's a
belt and whatever, and I'm just sitting there like, I

(01:10:17):
guess I'm just a total weirdo and a total outsider,
totally alone.

Speaker 3 (01:10:21):
You'll never connect with people on a normal because they
like shit like sex in the city, yes.

Speaker 2 (01:10:26):
And just and so things like this. It just my
heart grows ten sizes every time I hear anything about it,
because it's like we have our people, we just didn't
know they were out there.

Speaker 3 (01:10:35):
Well. The most fun is that we're the most popular
ones out of the entire group of people because we're
the host of this podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
What oh you mean of everybody? Yeah, because that's because
we started going back to feeding our ego.

Speaker 3 (01:10:47):
And that's nice that we're the we're the bot, like
we're the heads.

Speaker 2 (01:10:50):
I have to say. Yeah. Over one quick conversation where
you were like we should do a podcast, I was like, okay,
And then here's why I love Georgia Hardstar because then
she actually does it. Yeah, I would. It would take
me four years to actually really make a plan or
be like no, let's actually do it.

Speaker 3 (01:11:06):
I'd love to go to little, little, tiny Georgia and
say someday you're going to talk about murder and people
are going to listen to you. She would have been like, Yes,
that's fucking awesome, Georgia stuff cursing, You're just tiny little thing. Yayyy,
find us some places and thanks for listening.

Speaker 2 (01:11:22):
We love you. Stay sexy, yeah,